Can we attain perfection without a Guru

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Sorry but what do you mean by the ascending and descending process? And our senses are fine, they are right to operate in this dimension - which is why we came here. Cheating, making mistakes and all the other things we do is the point of the exercise. And again, knowledge? Knowledge of???? If you mean Spiritual knowledge of who/what we truly are, we already have that knowledge but we have chosen to forget for the duration of this Journey. We will remember again when we return to Spirit. Any other knowledge in this 3d realm is pretty useless to Spirit because as Spirit we already know it.

The ascending process is based on gaining knowledge through our own mind and sense as practiced by scientists and mental speculators.

The descending process is based on gaining knowledge by hearing from higher
authority. This is practiced by theists who accept the authority of Sastra(scripture), Guru and Sadhu (saintly person).

The ascending process is ok for certain realms of material knowledge but when it comes to spiritual knowledge it is useless.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

And no, your analogy is not valid. I know from experience, what leads you to your conclusion? Mistakes are not accidents, they're valuable learning experiences. Maybe you should discuss that concept with your teachers, but then I didn't need a teacher to help me see that, I just took the time to look a little deeper. Guess that makes me a fool then, according to your judgement. I don't have a problem with that :-) Some people just prefer to make their own mistakes and learn for themselves. It doesn't make them fools and it doesn't make those that choose to listen to gurus any better. Nobody's Path is any better than anyone else's, they're just different. Another thing you might discuss with your teachers. Calling them a fool because you have chosen a different Path to the does them a dishonour.

So are you seriously trying to say that you learned to drive a car by having accidents. I don't think so.

All paths are not equal. Hitler also had a path, is that equal to my path. I think not. "The path to Hell is paved with good intentions". If you call the person walking such a path a fool in order to help them what is wrong with that?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

We are not born into ignorance, when we become incarnate the slate is wiped clean for the duration of our incarnation. That is not ignorance, that is choice. Schools and universities give us knowledge of this realm and help us operate in this realm. It is only really useful when we are incarnate, after that it becomes defunct. It's still your choice to go to schools and universities or not. And as Spirit we already have all the Spiritual knowledge there is. We ARE Spiritual, and by our very nature, even though many would have it otherwise even in this realm we are - by our very nature - Spiritual. Even those most would prefer to see as non-Spiritual. The Reality is that for the time being we are Spirit on a human Journey. We have chosen to be here at this time to do whatever we have chosen to do, in whatever shape or form that takes. After that, or Reality changes and we understand it from the perspective of Spirit.

The Soul already had that Spiritual knowledge as Spirit, so again, what is the point of coming here to learn something born of ignorance?

If we are not born into ignorance then why are there so many atheists. They are clearly ignorant of their spiritual nature.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Neville,
Have I told you before how wonderful this is?

You came from a place of infinite wonder and unfathomable glory. When you leave this world of form you'll reunite with that Spirit of Love. The false belief that you are somehow separate from your Source right now is the greatest travesty ever known to humanity. Know that you are whole, perfect and downright BEAUTIFUL just the way you are.

This is nice but we are not perfect the way we are. We while only be prefect and whole when we attain self-realization.

"Because we do not know that there is a complete arrangement in nature for our maintenance, we make efforts to utilize the resources of nature to create a so-called complete life of sense enjoyment. Because the living entity cannot enjoy the life of the senses without being dovetailed with the Complete Whole, the misleading life of sense enjoyment is illusion. The hand of a body is a complete unit only as long as it is attached to the complete body. When the hand is severed from the body, it may appear like a hand, but it actually has none of the potencies of a hand. Similarly, living beings are part and parcel of the Complete Whole, and if they are severed from the Complete Whole, the illusory representation of completeness cannot fully satisfy them.

The completeness of human life can be realized only when one engages in the service of the Complete Whole. All services in this world — whether social, political, communal, international or even interplanetary — will remain incomplete until they are dovetailed with the Complete Whole. When everything is dovetailed with the Complete Whole, the attached parts and parcels also become complete in themselves." Isopanisad Verse 1 Purport by Swami Prabhupada

[Internal Queries]

we have access to the entire human experience via the collective human memory. all the information we need is RIGHT THERE. i don't need a guru to instruct me on how to access information that is naturally available to me or to tell me who i am (since he can't know) and what i should do with my self (not his life).

[BlueSky]

we have access to the entire human experience via the collective human memory. IQ

A part of me feels like I have transcended this fact and a part of me wonders if that is possible............then I just let the thought go and go back to living my life again....lol
Just sharing...............please guys, no reason to diagnose this for me....lol

[Internal Queries]

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

we have access to the entire human experience via the collective human memory. IQ

A part of me feels like I have transcended this fact and a part of me wonders if that is possible............then I just let the thought go and go back to living my life again....lol
Just sharing...............please guys, no reason to diagnose this for me....lol

lol if you've reached a point wherein your curiosity is slaked good for you! yay! me? i'm still kinda jazzed with the whole thing, the experience of imagining seeing with the eyes of distant past (or if i'm really cool that day seeing with the eyes of some distant future). skipping across timelines like a flat stone on a still pond.

PS. glad you're still here, James. woulda missed ya (((hugs)))

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Internal Queries

lol if you've reached a point wherein your curiosity is slaked good for you! yay!

Originally Posted by Internal Queries

PS. glad you're still here, James. woulda missed ya (((hugs)))

Fulfilled is a closer word.

P.S. Thank you.............glad to be here. I needed the hear what you all had to say to help remind me why I am here.........

[Uma]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

First thing is what is a Guru?

A Principle in our universe not a person.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

What isn't Guru?

A human being.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

How do you discriminate a real Guru from a fake?

Walks the talk. Doesn't expect anything from you. Inspires you to become one with the Inner Guru.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Does such a person exist?

The Guru Principle can express in human form - partially, 100% some of the time, 100% all of the time (only in true Gurus).

Originally Posted by I-Ching

What about the inner-guru?

Inner Guru is Kundalini. Guru Consciousness is attained when Kundalini stabilizes in the brow chakra. This is where the battle described by Bhagavad Gita takes place. Holding on to Krishna, the deluded ego, Arjuna, now identified with Inner Guru - Kundalini can then ascend to the crown chakra. Firmly established in the crown chakra, all the other chakras are spontaneously purified. This is an irreversible state of consciousness. [This is also described in coded form in the Bible, Revelation]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

I think that because we are in illusion only someone who is out of illusion can liberate us. Just like if you are tied up only someone who is untied can liberate you.

Any thoughts ...

I agree with this statement but it's a question of how much exposure is required. All that is needed really is a spark. Some people need more exposures (like me). A teacher can only take you as far as they have attained. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Teachers of various degrees of self-transformation appear according to the need and receptivity of the student. Only highly evolved students draw to themselves highly evolved gurus. An imperfect guru does their job well when they are humble and point towards a true Guru when they can take the student no farther. A true Guru wants nothing from the student but to remove their ignorance and lead them to their Inner Guru who will complete the journey from within. Even a true Guru has guides although existing completely connected to the Source. I don't know more than this at this point.

you are your own guru, its all you need

[Uma]

Originally Posted by Time

you are your own guru, its all you need

no parents, no school teachers?
no friends who share their wisdom?

even the greatest gurus that walked the earth needed gurus to guide them

it is not necessary for the guru to be "stereotypical" to be someone who guides you to your own light

a flower, a bee, the sunshine - these also also teachers

stubbing your toe on a rock...the rock was your guru

if you are all that you need you would not be on this planet

Those arent necassarily gurus, those are teachers. And parents are in another class all their own. A guru is more, the top in his spiritual disipline, and yes teacher, but pretty much THE teacher.

Of course you need the teachers, and perents, but the only person that can make the guru liek choices is you, no one else.