Non-duality doesn't exist.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

So you think you came here to help people who are suffering? Do you believe you have to suffer in order to help people who are suffering? Because the gates of hell are always wide open, and you are always free to go there. But you cannot get sick enough to help sick people become better. And I cannot make that decision for you. No one can. This is simply a matter of free will. It is simply the way it is. If I try to force you to choose good, I am not even capable of offering you any good choice, because in taking away your freedom, I have also taken away my own. What you are requesting is impossible. And a misunderstanding, because you actually cannot help anyone by supporting the very suffering that you wish to heal. There is no such thing as healing other people. You can only offer your well-being to others as an optional choice that they can choose, by the true service of being a leading example of the goodness that you deem good.

That is your 'logic' explaining your responses (or lack thereof) in relation to others. IMO You are just paper-tiger-arguing with and justifying your own rationalizations here.

My attitude and active relationship to and with others' joy and suffering is summarized in statements like:

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. ... Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. ... For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (I Corinthians Ch.12)

Please note: this is just one 'angle' (view) on a vast subject. I share it here so as to highlight how different my relational experience of and consequent attitude towards both human and animal 'suffering' is from yours. As far as I can see, for undoubtedly valid-to-you reasons, your soul has chosen to artificially 'enclose' itself in a bubble of 'selfishness' (which I previously characterized as a kind of 'spiritual hedonism').

I may be miss-perceiving and so miss-characterizing you (I only have your words to go one here), but even more than that of Joel Olstein, your philosophy reminds me of that of a supposedly 'Christian' minister named Reverend Ike whose prime 'message' was "The best thing you can do for 'the poor' is to not be one of them." See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverend_Ike for more details.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by davidsun

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. ... For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.[/color]" (I Corinthians Ch.12)[/indent]

Very good analogy to understand importance of empathy and compassion in our spirituality .

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by davidsun

That is your 'logic' explaining your responses (or lack thereof) in relation to others. IMO You are just paper-tiger-arguing with and justifying your own rationalizations here.

My attitude and active relationship to and with others' joy and suffering is summarized in statements like:

Wow, that's a big perspective. All one body. That makes sense. And sounds good. Thanks for sharing.

Since I am at peace, then perhaps all and everyone is at peace.
How does your soul type/share this if your soul is outside/beyond your body, as opposed to my soul being in my body? Or something like that.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Yes, the Isness of Being!!! It is always there (i.e., Present) whenever one focuses one's 'senses' on It. Anything else* one may think, feel, believe and say about It is one's 'own' (subjective) 'construct', hence my labeling that a 'hallucination'.

* "The Tao (i.e. the 'Way' of Being) that can be spoken is not the Tao." Yada Yada.

Some 'ways' are more positively 'creative' of Love and Joy because they are more functionally relational (less solipsistically self-centered) 'in connection' to and with others.

My rejection of Ewwerrin's God/Being 'trip' is a function of my 'seeing' it as being self-centeredly dissociated from the 'suffering' others are really encountering and experiencing. He said this himself: essentially 'hallucinatorily' IMO disregarding their encounter and experience (tho not his own) as just being 'illusion'.

That anything else are abstract/subjective concepts or ideas in peoples minds that really exist for them. The title of this thread is an exellent example, Non-duality does not exist, because non-duality and duality are only abstract/subjective concepts, ideas or labels that exists in peoples minds who do not combine non-duality together with duality. Both duality and non-duality make up the existence of oneness/wholeness in physical form. Oneness/wholeness is either everything to make it whole and complete and vice versa, where there is no concept of the mind needed and then there is the abstract/subjective concept of the mind that separates non-duality and duality, where duality is an illusion.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

That anything else are abstract/subjective concepts or ideas in peoples minds that really exist for them. The title of this thread is an exellent example, Non-duality does not exist, because non-duality and duality are only abstract/subjective concepts, ideas or labels that exists in peoples minds who do not combine non-duality together with duality. Both duality and non-duality make up the existence of oneness/wholeness in physical form. Oneness/wholeness is either everything to make it whole and complete and vice versa, where there is no concept of the mind needed and then there is the abstract/subjective concept of the mind that separates non-duality and duality, where duality is an illusion.

Isn't that an abstract and subjective concept in your mind?

[anthony c]

First of all, non-duality actually means not two. 2nd. i see it like this 1 + 1 =2 you cant have the one without the other so non-duality can't be a hoax but in that way. You cant have 2 without the 1 and + and other 1 but still 2 exists.

Non-duality = duality + duality + duality to infinity. Non-duality eats up duality in a sense. cause nothing can be outside non-duality or oneness cause then what is outside that??

I see it like this, If we use the mirror example to demonstrate oneness it's like this: If you look at a mirror you see in the mirror a chair, a bed, etc... they seem separate but the substance of the mirror is what makes everything inside the mirror one. Reality is like that but without anything outside of the mirror. The mirror is all that exists. Now change the mirror with reality and now you have non-duality.

Same with reality, everything that exists is one cause the substance of reality is what makes reality one. There is nothing outside of reality cause that would make it non reality and if there is another reality outside of reality it automatic gets eaten up so to speak by reality meaning it gets included into reality cause reality is the substance of reality. Mind twister right there!!!

Originally Posted by anthony c

First of all, non-duality actually means not two. 2nd. i see it like this 1 + 1 =2 you cant have the one without the other so non-duality can't be a hoax but in that way. You cant have 2 without the 1 and + and other 1 but still 2 exists.

Non-duality = duality + duality + duality to infinity. Non-duality eats up duality in a sense. cause nothing can be outside non-duality or oneness cause then what is outside that??

I see it like this, If we use the mirror example to demonstrate oneness it's like this: If you look at a mirror you see in the mirror a chair, a bed, etc... they seem separate but the substance of the mirror is what makes everything inside the mirror one. Reality is like that but without anything outside of the mirror. The mirror is all that exists. Now change the mirror with reality and now you have non-duality.

Same with reality, everything that exists is one cause the substance of reality is what makes reality one. There is nothing outside of reality cause that would make it non reality and if there is another reality outside of reality it automatic gets eaten up so to speak by reality meaning it gets included into reality cause reality is the substance of reality. Mind twister right there!!!

Yes, non-duality does exist with or without duality. Without duality it does so in deep sleep. Utter absence of experience of duality. If there's only one universe that physicists say appeared out of nothingness and will eventually go back into nothingness either via Big Crunch or Big Chill then the same is true of before and after the universe. No duality to experience, just Existence, Consciousness, Bliss.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by anthony c

I see it like this, If we use the mirror example to demonstrate oneness it's like this: If you look at a mirror you see in the mirror a chair, a bed, etc... they seem separate but the substance of the mirror is what makes everything inside the mirror one. Reality is like that but without anything outside of the mirror. The mirror is all that exists. Now change the mirror with reality and now you have non-duality.

Hi Anthony

That’s a good way to put it. I sometimes use the idea of a 3D film. It’s the mirror or the film that is the One. It doesn’t mean that all difference, variation and individuation cease (as some speculate), it is the seeing that right now - all there is is THIS - completely and utterly non-dual even as the dance of variation unfolds.

[anthony c]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hi Anthony

That’s a good way to put it. I sometimes use the idea of a 3D film. It’s the mirror or the film that is the One. It doesn’t mean that all difference, variation and individuation cease (as some speculate), it is the seeing that right now - all there is is THIS - completely and utterly non-dual even as the dance of variation unfolds.

Nice!

Yes, different human concepts: dream, film, game, reality, existence, etc but that is a story in itself/"reflections in the mirror" but it's not the true nature of non-duality though. They call it Isness/Oneness cause it just is what it is and language can only point to it also labeling is also only pointing to it.

"It doesn’t mean that all difference, variation and individuation cease (as some speculate), it is the seeing that right now - all there is is THIS - completely and utterly non-dual even as the dance of variation unfolds."

Yes, The Buddhists call it impermanence, Isness always changing but the substance never does.

[anthony c]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Yes, non-duality does exist with or without duality. Without duality it does so in deep sleep. Utter absence of experience of duality. If there's only one universe that physicists say appeared out of nothingness and will eventually go back into nothingness either via Big Crunch or Big Chill then the same is true of before and after the universe. No duality to experience, just Existence, Consciousness, Bliss.

Yes but deep sleep is just a state of consciousness. Nothingness there is allot of different theories what is could be. I am not sure what it really is and not really contemplated it. One guy calls it the Absolute but that is very advance stuff and i am not there yet.