How important are the Gnostic gospels to Christianity?

[django]

Originally Posted by sky123

You have had a ' personal experience ' and others also have had a ' personal experience ' which maybe didn't involve or need a holy spirit....

Everyone is different and as I pointed out, not all Christians believe in a holy spirit.

Do these Holy Spirit non-believers read an expurgated version of the bible? Or even an expurgated version of the gospel of Thomas, which otherwise says (44) Jesus said, "Whoever utters blasphemy against the father will be forgiven. And whoever utters blasphemy against the son will be forgiven. But whoever utters blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven - neither on earth nor in heaven." It's pretty hard to miss all the references to the Holy Spirit otherwise, no matter how you might choose to theologise it, and for sure there are many different views regarding the Holy Spirit. Biblically to not believe in the Holy Spirit in some way is nonsensical though.

The question then must be why are you so keen to dismiss the Holy Spirit, when it appears all of Christianity even gnostic Christianity seems to take it very seriously indeed. The reason it is considered the greatest sin is because to deny the Holy Spirit is to cut oneself off from the most important voice that leads a Christian to the truth. If we turn our backs on the voice of the Holy Spirit we begin to silence His convictions and eventually we cannot hear His convicting power. This effectively blocks the working of God in our lives because we have reached a point where we are unable to respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by sky123

You have had a ' personal experience ' and others also have had a ' personal experience ' which maybe didn't involve or need a holy spirit....

Everyone is different and as I pointed out, not all Christians believe in a holy spirit.

Sky you know i'm fairly open to alternative views even yours ( ) but the Holy Spirit is central to Christianity
it's in the name. The anointed one 'Christ' is anointed with it to get his name
We believe he baptised in it and also the cross represents him gifting it. He also was baptised in it and conceived in it, as well

I will admit there's room for seeing the same thing under different names. A 'spiritual experience' some might not associate with the Spirit, I would see as being what that is. So i'm not sure if really your questioning the definition as there's various opinions out there..

Django,
>The reason it is considered the greatest sin is because to deny the Holy Spirit is to cut oneself off from the most important voice that leads a Christian to the truth

I think it's more than that. If Pentecost can only happen from the cross then its denying the essence of who he is and his mission. But yes also what you said. I think it is a warning and some Christians get the Spirit wrong which is a mind bending thought.

>Philosophies like gnosticism and non-duality and Buddhism, and all the New Age authors, rely on a person discovering a higher state of state of consciousness within themselves, and the spiritual entity Jesus is not required to accomplish this

Half agree. Some Gnostics went that direction, back then it was philosophy
But 'orthadoxy' can do the same thing and become 'lifeless religion'
I think Gnostics tended to go wrong on this point you mention
But some who probably were less 'Gnostic' and more plain mystical seemed to preserve the point
I mean even the Hypostasis of the Archons is proper Gnostic and it says
"He said to me, "Until the moment when the true man, within a modeled form, reveals the existence of the spirit of truth, which the father has sent.
Then he will teach them about everything, and he will anoint them with the unction of life eternal, given him from the undominated generation"

But we are talking about later splits. The original Christian community was completely Spirit based at the time of Mary's preaching who founded the church before the splits and breakaways happened and more extreme forms emerged.

The Gnostic writings are from one branch that went off in another direction so are interesting and useful but not the original very first version

Originally Posted by davidmartin

"Until the moment when the true man, within a modeled form, reveals the existence of the spirit of truth, which the father has sent.
Then he will teach them about everything, and he will anoint them with the unction of life eternal, given him from the undominated generation"

Your the first person I have seen use the word "unction".
I believe in the "unction" and try operating by it. (1 John 2:20)

Originally Posted by Honza

Since the re-discovery of the Gnostic gospels in 1945 there has been a resurgence of interest in Gnosticism. I guess the reply to my question depends upon whether you are a Gnostic or not.

I am not a Gnostic and therefore I feel that the Gnostic gospels are probably not the words of Christ. They were written much later on when Jesus had been dead for a couple of centuries.

My personal experience of Christ's spirit is that it is much cleaner and stronger than my own spirit. I feel the Gnostic gospels are probably wishful thinking on behalf of certain people who wished they were God too.

Don't really know what they are.
Have not cared to read them. As of yet.

[sky]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

Sky you know i'm fairly open to alternative views even yours ( ) but the Holy Spirit is central to Christianity
it's in the name. The anointed one 'Christ' is anointed with it to get his name
We believe he baptised in it and also the cross represents him gifting it. He also was baptised in it and conceived in it, as well

I will admit there's room for seeing the same thing under different names. A 'spiritual experience' some might not associate with the Spirit, I would see as being what that is. So i'm not sure if really your questioning the definition as there's various opinions out there..

Django,
>The reason it is considered the greatest sin is because to deny the Holy Spirit is to cut oneself off from the most important voice that leads a Christian to the truth

I think it's more than that. If Pentecost can only happen from the cross then its denying the essence of who he is and his mission. But yes also what you said. I think it is a warning and some Christians get the Spirit wrong which is a mind bending thought.

>Philosophies like gnosticism and non-duality and Buddhism, and all the New Age authors, rely on a person discovering a higher state of state of consciousness within themselves, and the spiritual entity Jesus is not required to accomplish this

Half agree. Some Gnostics went that direction, back then it was philosophy
But 'orthadoxy' can do the same thing and become 'lifeless religion'
I think Gnostics tended to go wrong on this point you mention
But some who probably were less 'Gnostic' and more plain mystical seemed to preserve the point
I mean even the Hypostasis of the Archons is proper Gnostic and it says
"He said to me, "Until the moment when the true man, within a modeled form, reveals the existence of the spirit of truth, which the father has sent.
Then he will teach them about everything, and he will anoint them with the unction of life eternal, given him from the undominated generation"

But we are talking about later splits. The original Christian community was completely Spirit based at the time of Mary's preaching who founded the church before the splits and breakaways happened and more extreme forms emerged.

The Gnostic writings are from one branch that went off in another direction so are interesting and useful but not the original very first version

' but the Holy Spirit is central to Christianity '


Who said, who made that law?

Not all Christians take the Bible literally

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

Do these Holy Spirit non-believers read an expurgated version of the bible? Or even an expurgated version of the gospel of Thomas, which otherwise says (44) Jesus said, "Whoever utters blasphemy against the father will be forgiven. And whoever utters blasphemy against the son will be forgiven. But whoever utters blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven - neither on earth nor in heaven." It's pretty hard to miss all the references to the Holy Spirit otherwise, no matter how you might choose to theologise it, and for sure there are many different views regarding the Holy Spirit. Biblically to not believe in the Holy Spirit in some way is nonsensical though.

The question then must be why are you so keen to dismiss the Holy Spirit, when it appears all of Christianity even gnostic Christianity seems to take it very seriously indeed. The reason it is considered the greatest sin is because to deny the Holy Spirit is to cut oneself off from the most important voice that leads a Christian to the truth. If we turn our backs on the voice of the Holy Spirit we begin to silence His convictions and eventually we cannot hear His convicting power. This effectively blocks the working of God in our lives because we have reached a point where we are unable to respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

' The reason it is considered the greatest sin is because to deny the Holy Spirit is to cut oneself off from the most important voice that leads a Christian to the truth. '


That's a little childish

[django]

Originally Posted by sky123

' The reason it is considered the greatest sin is because to deny the Holy Spirit is to cut oneself off from the most important voice that leads a Christian to the truth. '


That's a little childish

Thankyou for sharing that sky. Now maybe we can get back to the thread topic.

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

Thankyou for sharing that sky. Now maybe we can get back to the thread topic.

Which is......
How important are the Gnostic..................

They certainly are important to those who percieve them as important

[jojo50]

Originally Posted by Honza

I feel that the Gnostic gospels are probably not the words of Christ.

I agree, anything other than Jehovah God's ,(Exo. 6:3) words by means of faithful men of old ,(2Pet. 1:20,21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost"). INCLUDING Jesus ,which MANY refuses to believe Jesus is speaking for his Father, (John 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me). it's NOT a true teaching.

anyone who betrays the TRUE teachings of Jesus. and spread false teachings. goes against Jesus and his Father, which makes them apostates. John stood firmly against apostasy of his time. John said at ,(1John 4:2,3 "By this you know the Spirit of God. Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world). peace

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by sky123

' but the Holy Spirit is central to Christianity '


Who said, who made that law?

Not all Christians take the Bible literally

if you fall in the water you get wet, is that a law? i suppose so, its also kind of obviously true. your view sounds like someone arguing no you might not get wet if you fall in. its only something someone outside the faith could ever suggest