Spiritual Development and Evolution

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Believe it or not, one of the main driving forces behind Spirituality is your subconscious mind's survival instincts and the Limbic System in the brain -the so-called Lizard Brain.

No, I don't believe this particular theory. A more convincing theory is that the driving force behind spirituality is Soul or Consciousness.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Oh, and don't forget DNA here because that can determine of you're Spiritual or not regardless of any conscious choice you might make.

No, I don't believe this theory either. Those who believe that a human being is just a physical body try to use DNA to explain all aspects of human nature. DNA may explain the physical nature but that is just a small part of a human being.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Oh, and don't forget the God gene.

Ah, the theory of the God gene, put forward by some scientists and rejected by other scientists. Repeatedly asserting that human beings have a God gene does not make it a fact.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Nobody knows what consciousness is, the only thing that numerous studies across a wide range of disciplines have in common is that they're not quite sure what it is they're discussing. So the people who wrote the posts about the levels of consciousness???? How qualified and expert are they really? If you're going to begin something like this it's best to start with something other than opinion as clinical expertise.

So those who say that consciousness originates in the human brain do not know what they are talking about.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

What's also interesting is that Jung says we have a collective unconsciousness and some of there avatars of that which manifest today. The apes who came down from the trees were very ill-equipped to deal with survival on the ground and especially at night, their little squinty eyes were no match for lions and tigers and bear, oh my. Hence we don't like the dark too much, and we like the light very much. It also explains the motif of light beings across so many diverse cultures that appear as angels.

Or perhaps we are drawn to the light because our innermost nature manifests as light.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It was thought that religion was formed around the same time as communities were forming, because people didn't have to spend so much time on survival there was more time to talk of other things. Can't help but wonder if that has changed so little after all. All that changed with the discovery of Gobekli Tepe, that was built by hunter-gatherers and it's considered to be a religious site.

Or perhaps religions were formed because enlightened Teachers instructed humanity, and when these Teachers were gone humans created systems of thought/belief based around such Teachers and their teachings.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The brain is a first-stage processor while the mind is a second-stage processor, but there are both input and output signals. It was thought that memories die with and are stored in the brain and that's been clinically proven. My wife has a stroke which caused some of the blood supply to her brain to be cut off, and she's lost huge tracts of her memory.

I am sorry to hear about your wife - it must be difficult for both of you. But I question the statement that it has been clinically proven that memories are stored in the brain and die with the brain.

Maybe we need to differentiate between the storage of memories and the retrieval of memories. Damage to parts of the brain may interfere with the conscious retrieval of memories, but that does not prove that memories are stored in the brain.

And for those who accept that we continue to exist after the body and brain have died, then we still have memories of our time on Earth. So where are these memories stored?

Peace.

Originally Posted by iamthat

No, I don't believe this particular theory. A more convincing theory is that the driving force behind spirituality is Soul or Consciousness.

It's not a theory. Your brain doesn't change because you've decided you're Spiritual. There's no general consensus over what Spirituality is and if you started a thread you'd get dozens of different answers. The Soul is a belief and even those experts that have studied consciousness haven't come to an agreement as to what consciousness is. What they do clinically know about consciousness is that it's epi-phenomenal and takes no interactive part in it's own development.

Originally Posted by iamthat

No, I don't believe this theory either. Those who believe that a human being is just a physical body try to use DNA to explain all aspects of human nature. DNA may explain the physical nature but that is just a small part of a human being.

Yes it is but DNA is the foundations, regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not. Your DNA hard-wires your brain regardless of your beliefs. There is also more to being a human and all of reality than a personal definition of Spiritual.

[quote=iamthat]Ah, the theory of the God gene, put forward by some scientists and rejected by other scientists. Repeatedly asserting that human beings have a God gene does not make it a fact.[p/quote]Rejection and dismissal doesn't make beliefs facts, nor does hanging a 'Made in Spirituality' label on it.

Originally Posted by iamthat

So those who say that consciousness originates in the human brain do not know what they are talking about.

Then I suggest you go talk to the experts, but according to science matter is emergent of consciousness so Spirituality has it backwards, and this whole thread is not evolution but devolution.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Or perhaps we are drawn to the light because our innermost nature manifests as light.

There's no objectivity in that at all, again it's your belief.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Or perhaps religions were formed because enlightened Teachers instructed humanity, and when these Teachers were gone humans created systems of thought/belief based around such Teachers and their teachings.

The apes and cavemen came before them, evolutionary-ways anyway. Where did they come from?

According to Graham Hancock some 495 cultures across geography and time share some very common mythology, that of the 'Shining Ones'. His theory is that the history we have been given is false and that there was at least one advanced civilisation prior to the history we have been given. Regardless of beliefs the myths remain the within the cultures.

Originally Posted by iamthat

I am sorry to hear about your wife - it must be difficult for both of you. But I question the statement that it has been clinically proven that memories are stored in the brain and die with the brain.

Maybe we need to differentiate between the storage of memories and the retrieval of memories. Damage to parts of the brain may interfere with the conscious retrieval of memories, but that does not prove that memories are stored in the brain.

And for those who accept that we continue to exist after the body and brain have died, then we still have memories of our time on Earth. So where are these memories stored?

Peace.

Thank you for that.

To the best of our current science it's been proven that memories are stored in the brain, anything else remains a theory although I'm not discounting any future discoveries. I know there are on-going studies as to some kind of 'external storage' but that's a work in progress and there are a few conflicting ideas being explored. Whether the brain is the storage medium itself or whether it's the access mechanism is still up for grabs.

Perhaps Penrose and Hameroff have more answers in the quantum-capable microtubules. If the brain is quantum-capable, my question is what ramifications will that have for Spirituality and will people still hold to their doctrines and dogmas when science has proved that God is the universal energy field. So perhaps the microtubules in the brain form the access mechanism for memories that remain after physical death. I'm a medium and regardless of what Spirituality might say about who we truly are, much of our humanity remains after physical death - including aspects of our personality and memories. That much I do know from practical experience with having interacted directly with those that have passed over. I don't know where they are stored, perhaps they have access to the Akashic Records, Collective Consciousness.....

[EdmundJohnstone]

By Evolution in the Thread Title I meant Darwin's Evolution (Evolutionism) Theory, not to be confused with Soul Evolution, like how we arrived here from being apes, how our consciousness/mind shifted from an animal perspective to modern day humans. What makes us different as consciousness from apes, cavemen, neanderthals or insects like bugs, fish, or other animals? Will robots ever be identical to humans and take over?

Regarding the 2nd part, I was wondering really how mediums communicate with deceased people if their memories and thinking died with their brain, but I don't get it: They died, then they regained their memories and thinking using Akashic records, Collective consciousness?

My 2 pence are that the consciousness/mind/soul is independent of brain. The signal is not to be blamed if the radio/receiver gets damaged (mind and brain). The signal/software would run better on better/evolved hardware. The brain is just the hardware/tool of the mind and still is developing and that would explain the shift in behaviour from a child to an adult. This would explain how dead people that suffered from Dementia or any other Brain Ilness can communicate with mediums and share their memories and is sort of a continuation to Penrose and Hameroff postulations as the consciousness on quantum level leaves the brain upon physical death.

This would also explain different iq's as the software (mind) works on any hardware (brain) but the hardware components generate the iq and the mind utilizes this potential gift. Consciousness as self awareness seems to be linear with time, but the behaviour (childish kid to mature serious adult) not.

It is either this that the mind is independent of the brain, or that the mind is dependant on the brain (mind being created within the brain). The latter contradicts the medium's conversations with dead people as they would cease existing when the brain dies (their mind becoming inactive and then cease existing)

[Busby]

Originally Posted by sky123

' How do you think we arrived at this point here as Homo Sapiens humans? What is it that makes most sense to you? '


Cause and effect.... Nothing more, nothing less.

I'd be prepared to stick my neck out a little and say that cause and effect - karma - is another description of the evolution process.

Edmund,

I like to think consciousness,is just like an evolution to evovling over time,just as we as humans are born with a blank slate.

Ain't contradiction though the point of questioning?

Ponder that for awhile.

[iamthat]

Hi Greenslade

We seem to be coming from different directions in our approach to Spirituality, but perhaps one day we will find common ground. I look forward to that day.

Peace.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

By Evolution in the Thread Title I meant Darwin's Evolution (Evolutionism) Theory, not to be confused with Soul Evolution, like how we arrived here from being apes, how our consciousness shifted from an animal perspective to modern day humans.

There's still a debate going on between nature versus nurture, truth, agenda, mind control... It's a mess, quite frankly. There are gaps in the evolutionary chain and genetic anomalies cropping up all over the place.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

Regarding the 2nd part, I was wondering really how mediums communicate with deceased people if their memories and thinking died with their brain, but I don't get it: They died, then they regained their memories and thinking using Akashic records, Collective consciousness?

I could try and explain how I experience it but frankly I'd struggle with the words. What I can say is that I feel a shift in consciousness and feel 'energetically different'. Others contact Spirit through meditation. I don't think anybody really understands the underlying 'mechanics' of it.

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

My 2 pennies are that the consciousness/mind is independent of brain. The signal is not to be blamed if the radio/receiver gets damaged (mind and brain). The signal/software would run better on better/evolved hardware. The brain is just the hardware/tool of the mind and still is developing and that would explain the shift in behavoour from a child to an adult. This would explain how dead people that suffered from Dementia or any other Brain Ilness can communicate with mediums and share their memories and is sort of a continuation to Penrose and Hameroff postulations as the consciousness on quantum level leaves the brain upon physical death.

This would also explain different iq's as the software (mind) works on any hardware (brain) but the hardware components generate the iq and the mind utilizes this potential gift. Consciousness as self awareness seems to be linear with time, but the behaviour (childish kid to mature serious adult) not.

What I know from experience is that mind can 'detach' itself, essentially. When I was young my mind would detach itself a the threat of trauma to the extent that I was conscious of being beside 'myself' while my physical body.... Something similar happened in a car crash I was in, I was in a very dark place and conscious of almost nothing while my brain/body did what was necessary to survive. The brain did what it needed to do to keep me alive, the mind detached' or shut itself off from what was happening and had next to no input whatsoever, while the consciousness remained conscious of what was going on.

Consciousness is emergent, and that's the key understanding.

The brain's activity is essentially electical and chemical processes, which means energy at the quantum level. It's common sense to think that if there is knowledge that was gained by the brain that still is available after death then there are few options as to how that happens.

Consciousness is not linear with time, time is linear because of our perceptions of it and those are initially generated by the mind that was 'designed' to work the way it does, as a mechanism with which to 'navigate' this realm of existence. Consciousness can and does 'navigate' the linear timeline.

Other than that, have a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzCvlFRISIM

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

It is either this that the mind is independent of the brain, or that the mind is dependant on the brain (mind being created within the brain). The latter contradicts the medium's conversations with dead people as they would cease existing when brain dies

Neither, there is an interdependency between the brain, the mind and the medium's conversation so all three are needed. The brain can work independently as my own experiences have shown me, and without the brain all bodily functions - especially breathing - would cease. It's an input/output processor. The mind 'interprets' or 'translates' the input between the physical and Spirit while the consciousness 'vibrates' (although 'vibrates' is actually the wrong word) somewhere between human and Spirit. The medium's conversation is a two way process, so information is received from Spirit, 'interpreted' and 'translated' by the mind then passed to the mind to be relayed/spoken. It's a Spirit-mind-brain process, simply. If the input from the person is confusion for instance, the medium will then ask Spirit for clarification, and in that case it becomes a brain-mind-Spirit process. Consciousness and/or awareness happens at all of those levels and of the process itself.

The mind, the brain and the consciousness are all 'autonomous' yet are inter-connected, and that's the understanding that's missing from all of this. Spirituality and science are inter-connected, they are not contradictory but are simply different perspectives of "All That Is." Some people can't get their heads around the idea that one plus one equals three.

Originally Posted by Busby

I'd be prepared to stick my neck out a little and say that cause and effect - karma - is another description of the evolution process.

"Behold the turtle, he only makes progress when he sticks his neck out."
Can't remember who wrote that but it's apt.

The original meaning for the Sanskrit word 'karma' was simply 'action', and if you're going to Google it then include the word "Sanskrit". The Spiritual cause and effect is kamma-vipaka, 'kamma' means 'intention' and kamma-vipaka is the results of intention that become cause and have an effect. Essentially. There's no mention of positive and negative, by the way. That's the Spiritual equivalent of "Be careful what you wish for."

There is no time, so where does that put a linear cause and effect?

Matter is emergent of consciousness according to science and Spirituality would agree with that, because we create our own reality in more literal terms than something that sounds cool in these hallowed forums.

If we came from Spirit, what does that mean? Doesn't it make us (partly) matter that's emergent of that Spirit consciousness?

Go on, stick that neck out a little more.

[John32241]

Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone

It is either this that the mind is independent of the brain, or that the mind is dependant on the brain (mind being created within the brain). The latter contradicts the medium's conversations with dead people as they would cease existing when the brain dies (their mind becoming inactive and then cease existing)

Hi,

The mind, which some call consciousness, lives on after the brain dies with the body. That is the conventional understaning for many of us.

Naturally there are those who think differently. Are they using their brain to reach that conclusion?

John

Originally Posted by iamthat

Hi Greenslade

We seem to be coming from different directions in our approach to Spirituality, but perhaps one day we will find common ground. I look forward to that day.

Peace.

Hello Iamthat, but that isn't who you are, is it?

In the interests of common ground.....

"The temple of the most high begins with the human body, which houses our life, essence of our existence. Africans are in bondage today because they approach spirituality through Religion provided by foreign invaders and conquerors. We must stop confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a set of rules, regulations and rituals created by humans which were supposed to help people grow spiritually.

Due to human imperfection religion has become corrupt, political, divisive and a tool for power struggle. Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simply a way of life, pure and original as was given by the Most High. Spirituality is a network linking us to the Most High, the universe and each other. As the essence of our existence it embodies our culture, true identity, nationhood and destiny. A people without a nation they can really call their own is a people without a soul. Africa is our nation and is in spiritual and physical bondage because her leaders are turning to outside forces for solutions to African problems when everything Africa needs is within her. When African righteous people come together, the world will come together. This is our divine destiny. "
Haile Selassie

Beliefs are unimportant to me because if I have a belief it means I am in conflict with What Is. Facts and beliefs are simply the best we can do in this moment, given the knowledge and understanding that we have available. Tomorrow, perhaps a new revelation awaits. Everything has an interconnectedness to everything else and while Spirituality is the "What?" science is the "How?", and what is in the centre of it all is the one question we're all asking. "Who am I?"

We have a different approach to Spirituality because our definitions of what constitutes Spirituality. From my perspective, I often struggle to see a dividing line between religion and how many people express their Spirituality. I am not a Spiritual person, I am a person who has a Spiritual aspect to their being. My own definition is akin to that of Haile Selassie's and when I first saw that quote I breathed a sigh of relief. There was something that I could truly resonate as Spirituality and not the ideologies and theologies of religion.

On common ground, Iamthat, this is a Journey to Self and everything else is filters, context and contents of the ego. All good role-playing stuff.

"I have always been here."
Kosh Naranek, the Vorlon Ambassador to Babylon 5
"You have always been here."
Kosh Naranek, the Vorlon Ambassador to Babylon 5

In my Spirituality, that's something deeply Spiritual that I've found within sci-fi. If you dismiss it because it's not within the context of your definition of Spirituality?

You have always been here, you know that already, and you know I have too. I know you have always been here. Does it matter that we're standing on the same ground, only back-to-back?