What I believe full enlightenment is

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Running hello. I can appreciate what you're saying. It is a non-doing and it is grace and surrender. I call it ananda, or the sublime joy of being. It can run a bit lower or a lot stronger but it's always there.

However, I think some folks are ultimately focusing more on some other aspects. At least, that's what I have understood.

What I see is this. Other points have also been raised along the lines of the bliss or joy of being doesn't negate your ownership. It doesn't negate your thoughts or emotions, though it certainly may buffer and temper them along the way. Last, it certainly doesn't magically or immediately alleviate the hypocrisy of knowing innately one thing, whilst doing and saying another. We have to open to that transformation and also willing embrace it and consciously engage with it deeply. There is no ownership and growth by auto-pilot.

There is a special kind of hypocrisy we see today where folks have had some level of awakening...but as yet still refuse to take ownership of themselves. Who as yet are struggling with admitting their humanity and thus with whatever their particular, individual weaknesses may be. Of course, plenty others are aware and just may be a bit more reserved about sharing on an open forum :)

So as you say, awakening can mean many things, etc., but we're also left with what happens next. It's just the tip of the iceberg and yet many (not you but many) can get misdirected and think (like Dahmer but also like plenty of regular folks too) that bliss is the end...they've "arrived" and are fully cooked. In fact, it's just the opening invitation to fully and consciously participate in a much deeper transformation.

Peace & blessings
7L

everybody has an idea of how they think and wish things to be. including me.

bliss is an end. or a a new beginning. the subtleness of it though is endless.

these are just two seperate topics.

if you want to meet great people. they are everywhere. most arent even into spirituality.

debating culture is a wars of ideas. bliss is the way out of the war zone. and when one gets out of that being the focus. and in there own joy. everybody gete along much better.

there will always be people we dont like. the world is full of diversity.

i just see putting so much focus on culture as being less helpful. i see putting the focus on transcendence as helpful. your faith is perhaps on culture. my faith is that people get along better when they are in joy.

i love history. the thing about history is it always rhymes. trying to make people how we think or want them to be has never ended well. because again. everyone has their own ideas. so it is a concern of mine when i see a way to peace. but everyone wishes to keep fighting.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

i have no issue about debates about culture. everybody has an idea of how they think and wish things to be. including me.

bliss is an end. or a a new beginning. the subtleness of it though is endless.

these are just two seperate topics.

if you want to meet great people. they are everywhere. most arent even into spirituality. i say that because you don't even have to mix spirituality with good people.

with all that said this is in a way. wars of ideas. bliss is the way out of the war zone. and when one gets out of that trap. and in there own joy. everybody gete along much better.

there will always be people we dont like. the world is full of diversity.

Running, hello there.
I don't disagree with anything you're saying, LOL. It is what it is
I am not talking about culture or even individual differences, and that's not what I see some others talking about, either. So I thought I would respond to make it a little clearer.
My response gets clearer as I see what is and is not clear to others, hahaha :).

I was just pointing out that post-awakening, there are different places on the journey. You come back around and onward and upward, so to speak. But there are different places. From what I've read & understood, I would
say you as well as I are not in the place where we are struggling to grasp the reality or coexistence of awareness of the joy of what is, with the fact that we are human. And IMO being human is a great strength and a beautiful thing, despite that suffering is real and doesn't feel pleasurable.

So, likewise, some ARE struggling with reconciling ananda + being human. For many, what this means is that even after awakening, they &/or others are therefore having real difficulty taking ownership of themselves. And thus, as Daz has noted, there seems to be a lot of hypocrisy amongst the awakened (and not just amongst the unawakened).

Post-awakening, the hypocrisy has a particular source, and this is perhaps what we might percolate on a bit. It's not because we're human but unaware. It's not because being here now means suffering. Not because suffering is somehow shameful...because being here now means being present to all we are and to all that is. It's more because some haven't made the simple heart-centred connection that others matter equally to themselves. And that, likewise, living from one's centre means conscious choices and conscious living.

That points to an awakening in the head (or via heady, trippy experiences) but not yet in the heart, very roughly put. Because that transformation to being and doing from the heart centre requires ownership, in order to consciously engage and deal with your stuff. It's not auto-pilot. Joy flows on auto-pilot, yes, but we have to put down roots consciously into that joy order to experience the fullness of liberation, and thus to bring that joy into every aspect of our being and doing. The Tibetans call it riding the windhorse of spirit...and it requires great strength and great courage, as well as great love and compassion.

I see Daz's comments more as observation that many are struggling to take ownership and deal with the hypocrisy. And yet, it is also central to the whole discussion of awakening...which centres for so many around awakening to the bliss or the sublime joy of being. I suppose he might be asking or thinking (from what he's said), what are each of you doing now, since you're not just wallowing in 100% bliss 24/7? Even if, yes, we do all experience it in our own way 24/7 ;)

I see you saying, hey just find your bliss and then all will begin to fall into place. And yet, I would say yes and no, so I can also see Daz's point. Awakening is always the start. But it's not guaranteed to lead anywhere in particular just automatically. Conscious choice to be and do here now, to be and do love now, is always some key part of the "ever after". And loads of folks just aren't comfortable yet (or don't know how to) really grounding and taking ownership of themselves.

So that may be why you and he are going round in circles a bit. On what happens post-initial awakening to the bliss/joy. It may be down in part to what you are able to or prefer to discuss on the topic. Or, like Daz, if you have a burning interest or question to put to others

Peace & blessings
7L

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Running, hello there.
I don't disagree with anything you're saying, LOL. It is what it is
I am not talking about culture or even individual differences, and that's not what I see some others talking about, either. So I thought I would respond to make it a little clearer.
My response gets clearer as I see what is and is not clear to others, hahaha :).

I was just pointing out that post-awakening, there are different places on the journey. You come back around and onward and upward, so to speak. But there are different places. From what I've read & understood, I would
say you as well as I are not in the place where we are struggling to grasp the reality or coexistence of awareness of the joy of what is, with the fact that we are human. And IMO being human is a great strength and a beautiful thing, despite that suffering is real and doesn't feel pleasurable.

So, likewise, some ARE struggling with reconciling ananda + being human. For many, what this means is that even after awakening, they &/or others are therefore having real difficulty taking ownership of themselves. And thus, as Daz has noted, there seems to be a lot of hypocrisy amongst the awakened (and not just amongst the unawakened).

Post-awakening, the hypocrisy has a particular source, and this is perhaps what we might percolate on a bit. It's not because we're human but unaware. It's not because being here now means suffering. Not because suffering is somehow shameful...because being here now means being present to all we are and to all that is. It's more because some haven't made the simple heart-centred connection that others matter equally to themselves. And that, likewise, living from one's centre means conscious choices and conscious living.

That points to an awakening in the head (or via heady, trippy experiences) but not yet in the heart, very roughly put. Because that transformation to being and doing from the heart centre requires ownership, in order to consciously engage and deal with your stuff. It's not auto-pilot. Joy flows on auto-pilot, yes, but we have to put down roots consciously into that joy order to experience the fullness of liberation, and thus to bring that joy into every aspect of our being and doing. The Tibetans call it riding the windhorse of spirit...and it requires great strength and great courage, as well as great love and compassion.

I see Daz's comments more as observation that many are struggling to take ownership and deal with the hypocrisy. And yet, it is also central to the whole discussion of awakening...which centres for so many around awakening to the bliss or the sublime joy of being. I suppose he might be asking or thinking (from what he's said), what are each of you doing now, since you're not just wallowing in 100% bliss 24/7? Even if, yes, we do all experience it in our own way 24/7 ;)

I see you saying, hey just find your bliss and then all will begin to fall into place. And yet, I would say yes and no, so I can also see Daz's point. Awakening is always the start. But it's not guaranteed to lead anywhere in particular just automatically. Conscious choice to be and do here now, to be and do love now, is always some key part of the "ever after". And loads of folks just aren't comfortable yet (or don't know how to) really grounding and taking ownership of themselves.

So that may be why you and he are going round in circles a bit. On what happens post-initial awakening to the bliss/joy. It may be down in part to what you are able to or prefer to discuss on the topic. Or, like Daz, if you have a burning interest or question to put to others

Peace & blessings
7L

my experience among gurus and folks that are in the bliss perhaps has just been different than yours. there was one guru that may have fit the concern y'all are speaking about. not evil. certainly not killing and eating people. i dont think anybody in the bliss, gurus and such have ever done such a thing in recorded histrory.

my experience has brought me to a sorta opposite conclusion. most people don't want anything to do with spirituality because it appears like its about having to be a certain way. nobody or most people don't like being told how to be. or what to do. it causes a lot of friction. such as it does in religion.

bliss can only happen if the heart and crown are open a lot. through oneness.

while i certainly agree bliss is only an aspect. life goes on. the mind and the emotions go on. there is perhaps for some a period of time where the mind and emotions dont function much during the process. as god like explained in his experience. no room for anything else. but that pretty much never lasts for great lengths of time. one eventually fits into that expansion where the mind and emotions can work in all that. in any case i have no idea how one could do horrible things because of being completely overwhelmed with such deep intoxication. maybe drool and stare for periods of time. but not become a evil person. so its concerning to me comparing a crazy human eating killing lunatic having any kinda similarity to somebody awakened to the bliss. that was really messed up imo.

edit add. anyways. although there have been disagreements on this thread. intentions imo have been good for atleast the most part.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

The point here is that if Jeffrey Dahmer stopped killing people, or wasn't killing, then his orgasmic "bliss high" wouldn't be there. In this case, the bliss is dependent on action, and so, it is not the "ultimate bliss" of samadhi.

Yah, and then there are some who get 'high' just by continuing to breathe and feel that they are 'alive' - whether such high be classified as 'ultimate' or not. I think that 'bliss' has been overrated and continues to be oversold as an 'ideal'. I'll take the feeling and meaningful engagement with and sharing of Love and Joy which I get from association (communion?) with someone who recognizes and appreciates/embraces the Life in others as much as (in) themselves any day over that!

[running]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Yah, and then there are some who get 'high' just by continuing to breathe and feel that they are 'alive' - whether such high be classifies as 'ultimate' or not. I think that 'bliss' has been overrated and continued to be oversold as an 'ideal'. I'll take the feeling and meaningful sharing of Love and Joy I get from 'association' with someone who recognizes and appreciates/embraces the Life in others as much as (in) themselves any day over that!

bliss of the soul is an addition. not a subtraction. im not saying you should want it or not. i don't care as that is your deal.

but over and over again you speak incorrectly about what it is. if you dont know? listen to people that do know. rather than make stuff up pretending to know. doesn't do anybody any good. causes confusion.

[running]

also for anybody curious about bliss. when one is that open they will feel others. because the heart and crown are open a lot. so one will naturally be intuitive to whats around them.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

LOL! You actually sound quite grounded and self-aware, so whatever you're doing is working for you

Peace & blessings
7L

Maybe..just maybe...I may also be one of those "awakened beings" who are still struggling with their humanity.

About that "taking ownership of yourself" thing...who is it that takes ownership of what exactly?

I am having a very interesting talk over in the General Beliefs Forum about how science is trying to nullify spiritual experiences by explaining them all away using neurotransmitters which sort of "cheapens" the whole thing IMHO.

When we talk about ownership, we are talking about responsibility. Are we responsible for the bliss? In my experience, Consciousness is responsible, but Consciousness cannot be studied under the microscope, tested with litmus paper...owned like a Porsche.

When we speak of ownership, what is it that we actually own? To think or believe we are the "owner" just hangs another label on the ego that keeps us attached to it, isn't it? It is for these same reasons why I have problems equating "God" with "Self" instead of with "All".

Some may say "well, the Self IS All" but then why bother with "Self" as being in any comparitive association or relation with anything other than Self?

Anyway..I was bogged down in scientific rationalism, lamenting how all of these people are showing me how God performs all of His "magic tricks" when I am better off NOT knowing because I didn't want to "own" any of it...when Still Waters came along and mentioned my Guru, Dakshinamurthy who is an Avatar of Lord Shiva..

Instantaneously, I went "science? what is science?" and I have spent the past 2 hours in meditation and chanting the names of Lord Shiva.

I just wish that people would flick that switch in me more often...I seem to have a difficult time doing it on my own.

The issue with others too, is that they think WAY too much..they even think about thinking, you know? Why do people kill? Why isn't the bliss permanent? Etc..etc.

How the hell would I know? Sorry daz, I have absolutely no clue..no idea..I could not even hazard a guess...you really got me there...

People try and give answers, but I believe they are pretty much as clueless as I am.

In the end, one just learns to say "screw it" stuff happens...not everything has an answer or a reason...just accept it...forget it...move on...God owns me...I own nothing...and everything is right again with the world".

[davidsun]

To me, 'owning' in the sense that its being used is acknowledging and continuing to exercise personal response-ability in relation to whatever action/choice is being referenced.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by running

bliss of the soul is an addition. not a subtraction. im not saying you should want it or not. i don't care as that is your deal.

but over and over again you speak incorrectly about what it is. if you dont know? listen to people that do know. rather than make stuff up pretending to know. doesn't do anybody any good. causes confusion.

One thing I notice through your sharing running is that your someone who is well attuned to bliss. I’m not. I’m aware of others in it around me, or who have been through it, connect to it. I read something recently about bliss being consciousness unmanifest. I read this to mean, it’s more an energy before creation. Which in many ways might be why we remember it through the journey of letting go. We are in many ways bridging in our clarity of being and
Creation, learning what we are made of as source as creation. What do you think about this?

[running]

Originally Posted by JustBe

One thing I notice through your sharing running is that your someone who is well attuned to bliss. I’m not. I’m aware of others in it around me, or who have been through it, connect to it. I read something recently about bliss being consciousness unmanifest. I read this to mean, it’s more an energy before creation. Which in many ways might be why we remember it through the journey of letting go. We are in many ways bridging in our clarity of being and
Creation, learning what we are made of as source as creation. What do you think about this?

my interpretation.

i don't see how that couldn't be true. everything comes out of it. then back to it. like a circle. including time. one feels desires and emotions dissolve from the power of bliss and silence.

in the most real sense. its all dreams within dreams. in an extreme depth of it i know for certain one can experience each other while experincing ourself in identity at the same time. present. past. and future. because it is a script in which we are all bounded to from it. its all a melting pot. i have been shown this a couple of times during my awakening process. if it wasn't for 100% of what i experinced to happen i wouldn't believe. but it did. many things. enough that i don't question it. which was perhaps the point of experiencing it. to humble me to it in depth. everything one way or another leads to the bliss and silence. humbles one to it. or brings upon some kinda surrender to it. which is endless. as the further one goes into it. the subtler the energies get.