The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 156 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Maisy

If it helps me, gives me what I want, it is moral. Others include others in their thinking. If it helps me, gives me what I want AND others it is moral.
I would guess it is objectively right or good to include others in our decisions. It's higher morals.

Your last two posts are very insightful. Due to administrative guidelines, one must limit the amount of posted material that we can quote so I am going to focus on the above points.

I think we are reaching a consensus here that there is indeed a subjective aspect to morality for most people as their morality is often based on what is beneficial to them. Right Understanding can clearly be very helpful in making "right morality choices' such as Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort.....

As one becomes progressively more established in Right Understanding, it is my understanding that the "higher morals" (as you put it) manifest quite naturally to "include others in our decisions".... or , as I put it, to act in the best interests of all as best of possible.

Great posts. For those who want to read them in their entirety, here are the links.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=156
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=154

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 144 EXCERPT: please elaborate on your statement in post 126 that "Morality relates directly to the cause of suffering, craving".

Morality is subjective, but also universal. It's subjective because it pertains to the nature of one's will, and universal because that's the same for everyone. Each individual is alone to discern if they generate or harbour ill-will (Hint: we all do).

Will directly relates to suffering because the dynamic tension between aversion and desire, 'craving', incites the will. In meditation you notice it most easily when there's adverse reactivity to discomfort. That is, one doesn't like the discomfort, wants it to go away and be replaced by a more pleasurable feeling. Thus, will in incited as you shift from seeing it 'as it is' to trying to make it as you want it to be, and experience a lot of mental agitation in that process. That is a very blatant example, but it occurs in more nuanced ways on more subtle levels, and applies to pleasurable feelings as well. Hence the skill is an ability to not-react, no aversion or desire, so that the mind stays still no matter what happens. Issue being, at some point one reaches the limit of that skill and starts becoming overwhelmed.

I'm not talking about True Self or anything particularly spiritual - just regular things in day to day life. To have realisations such as 'this is how I generate my own suffering' relies on truthfulness because generally people fabricate blame for something like 'I suffer because the world is cruel' or whatever, and justify their subsequent ill intent, but never see the ways they generate their own suffering, and also emanate that via the ill-will they generate.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

As one becomes progressively more established in Right Understanding, it is my understanding that the "higher morals" (as you put it) manifest quite naturally to "include others in our decisions".... or , as I put it, to act in the best interests of all as best of possible.

I wonder if the highest morals would probably mean zero self interest. The interests of others come first. Like if a bear is charging a child, I throw myself in front of the child and let the bear attack me. If a homeless person steals my coat, I give him my car as well. I think that may be the highest morals. I think there are clues in spirituality that suggest enlightenment is an outcome of zero self interest. One simply is without desire or opinion or seeking of any kind.

True humbleness and emptiness. But then that is in our interest to be person-less as that ends all self caused suffering. It brings total peace and love. Maybe the highest morals and highest way to be line up. It's all about the same "right understanding." Unconditional selfless being.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think that's the goal isn't it? To "be" so unattached and impersonal nothing others say (or our own minds) touches us in anyway?

Pretty much, though the paradox is becoming so sensitive that nothing becomes perturbed.

All this is very much about the body - and mind - in the sense that what we ultimately become perturbed by is our reactions to feelings, the aversions and desires referred to as 'craving'. The tricky part is being immersed in the feelings without generating such cravings. In this way, people will lie, betray, and be abusive and the same feeling will go through the body, but 'not being affected' just means there's no psychological reaction to it. If there is psychological reactivity, there is the me, my, mine I that we believe is affected. Since there is that impression of being affected there is reaction as a law of cause and effect, and that's the 'viscious circle' so to speak which we loosely call 'kamma'.

I think we do have control, but I like to think of it in terms of willingness rather than willfulness. It is a good point where some of the volitions we generated in the past have already raised the potentials of unavoidable consequence. In the purification process these come out and you can sit by and watch them materialise and pass away. Most of us don;t do that, we are unwilling, so we resist avoid in our adverse reactivity, and generate ill-will in that process - and affirm the consequence off that. If we realise what we are doing in that way, we get a sense of responsibility and understand how we need to be more careful.

My preference is not to try to be perfect, but just get to know who you are and be conscious of what you do. If that's highly reactive then OK. it's a fact, you see of yourself 'this is how I generate my own suffering', and since it's crazy to make yourself suffer, stop doing that. Problem being, you can't willfully stop doing that because the will is coming from the averse rectaction toward it, which is what we're suppose to stop doing...

So be willing. It's a fact. The way it stops is like, you are sitting there and suddenly you notice you are unconsciously tensing up your leg, just noticing it makes it relax. It's not like willfully make it relax - that's an oxymoron - it's more like at the moment you become conscious of the tension, you stop willfully tensing it.

What we will find in our meditations is, it's fine when everything is relatively comfortable and not a whole lot is going on... we notice a bit of tension and simply stop doing that, so the mind becomes more relaxed along with the body. But, if we start getting significantly uncomfortable and/or things get pretty intense, we start becoming overwhelmed and can't stop reacting... which is what we really mean by being effected.

That's not something which goes away because you get beyond it. It's the very nature of practice to retain perfect poise no matter what's going on. You get to your limitation, all fine, you can sit there knowing 'i'm totally freaking out', and after a while the discomfort passes, the intensity dies down, and you are more stable minded for the next time things amp up again. Over time we start to notice the things that disturbed me and freaked me out before can not perturb me anymore and I can withstand far more extreme intensities that I used to be able to.

So... not being affected is the thing, but it's more like a practice of equanimity

[JustBe]

I think the sensitivity works both ways.

Once your sensitivity is non reactive through those subtle layers in self. You’ll be naturally clear in that sensitivity towards others in the same way. Not through ‘fake it till you make it’, but through attentive inward noticing most naturally.


You can be feeling all free and liberated in your knowing..but sometimes within the many streams of life as life is, the experience and knowing, breaks you down a peg or two to be present, in the experience as others are experiencing.


Anyhow just my 2cents worth ..

[sky]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I wonder if the highest morals would probably mean zero self interest. The interests of others come first

If you don't look after your own interests you can never help others. It's all about 'Balance' and getting our priorities right rather than putting others first. Different circumstances need different actions.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 155 EXCERPT:That's precisely the point I am making.
Morality is subjective "based purely on what WE (or society in general) find to be beneficial".
Right Understanding would definitely help our choices.

Between right and wrong there's no distinction, we make our own based on what's personally convenient

[sky]

Thus I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:

"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding."

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta..

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I think the sensitivity works both ways.

I just look at it like, if the mind is a bit dull it can't really see deeply, you aren't really aware of what's going on and don't see how you get agitated at levels you aren't even conscious of. You only notice it after it's bubbled up and become obvious enough for your cruder perception to detect it, but if the meditation is designed to make your perception sharper, you get in touch with subtler aspects of the body with a bit of practice, meaning the mind is more sensitive, and becomes aware of what's happening on a more microscopic level. I've found a very sensitive point of balance, and the irony is, it's so delicate even the slightest agitation can topple it, but on the other hand, the only way to keep it poised is by being sensitive enough to be aware of it. It's 'hardly there' and very hard to notice, which means it very easy to be distracted from it. That probably makes no sense to anyone. I've never heard anyone talk about it in spiritual teachings etc, but it's come up in my meditations.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 162 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

Morality is subjective, but also universal.
Will directly relates to suffering because the dynamic tension between aversion and desire, 'craving', incites the will.
Hence the skill is an ability to not-react, no aversion or desire, so that the mind stays still no matter what happens.

I am inclined to agree that morality is subjective but also universal .... depending on how established one is in The Right Understanding of the Eightfold Path.

There is indeed a dynamic tension for many between aversion and desire, as you duly noted. Craving and will are indeed factors, but what is the ultimate cause of aversions and desire? That has been an awesome focus of my own past meditations (starting with the thought-injection/discursive thought of the first jhana ... and leading to a better understanding of the process in the subsequent jhanas).

You mention "Hence the skill is an ability to not-react, no aversion or desire, so that the mind stays still no matter what happens". That is indeed a great skill .... to ACT (which includes inaction as well as silence) based on Right Understanding as opposed to REACTING based on aversion/desire. Some people use WILL to prevent reacting; I do not though I did resort to the will in the past. When one discovers the art of attuning to the expanded consciousness, one intuitively ACTS effortlessly and naturally in the best interests of all as best as possible from that vantage point. As another poster suggested, that may indeed be the "highest" morality ...and my point is that it is based on one's emerging Right Understanding inherent in the expanded consciousness - the so-called Big Picture.

You have mentioned your own "gagging" reaction to a particular situation and that is an obvious reaction to an aversion. Of course, one can use one's WILL to persevere through that obvious discomfort. However, wouldn't it be better to get to the root of that reaction and "to not-react, no aversion or desire, so that the mind stays still no matter what happens"? That is certainly possible as I have personally dealt with various aversions/attractions in the past by getting to the roots of them and thus discovering how "to not-react, no aversion or desire, so that the mind stays still no matter what happens". This comes naturally with The Right Understanding.

Lastly, you correctly point out that "generally people fabricate blame" instead of accepting ultimate responsibility for what happens to them. As you pointed out, one must be true to one's self. The root causes for everything reveal themselves in Right Understanding. As you know, I have met several so-called "hidden masters" who remain ever calm despite what happens around them and have demonstrated awesome powers in that still state to use as they see fit when the moment is appropriate. We are ultimately co-creators of our destiny and blame no one.