What I believe full enlightenment is

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by God-Like

One however needs to understand what bliss ‘Is’ and what it means when it becomes you.

At this point one could ignore good and bad, what’s right or wrong in reflection of what we believe them to be and imply and simply just home in to what bliss feels like ..

Once there has been an understanding of what that is and what that is like, then perhaps one could explore expressions of that feeling / knowing .. and see if it matches up with causing sufferings to other’s or not without the understanding or the interference of what is regarded as being a right or wrong doing / action ..

Bing-Go! The 'could' indicates something optional. A serial-killer's experiences 'bliss' when s/he kills others, hence the uncaring (of others suffering and possible greater well-being) repetition of and addiction to said kind of action. The same applies to more 'normal' kinds of selfishness and personal bliss-enjoying.

You and I wouldn't call that 'enlightened' or an 'enlightened way' of being. Bliss-freaks might (could - 'cuz that too is optional) and often do, though. They bypass thoughts feelings of irritation, annoyance, hate, and anger etc. by just focusing on their 'own' bliss-'high' - I imagine Dahmer didn't have/entertain such 'negative' while killing his victims - only 'orgasmic' delight.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Questions

It seems like I hit a nerve when I spoke of silencing thoughts and emotions but it also seems like you didn't want to read the whole sentence as it says thoughts and emotions silenced and not arising on THEIR OWN. When you see that you'll start seeing the way.

If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both.

Bodhidharma

Questions, your add doesn't change my response, and your admonition falls flat, but I appreciate your effort if well-intentioned, and I encourage you to pursue the best of your intentions in the least intrusive and judgmental manner.

Of course, awakened mind is in service to awakened heart. Of course, the deepest apprehension is not apprehended "solely" by mind in some artificially separate sense that many dualistically put forth.

I'm not here to explain things further to you. You'll figure it out. If you've got it all figured out already, then you've no need to converse with me. I'm good here at this time, and all the best.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

doublepost...

[running]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Bing-Go! The 'could' indicates something optional. A serial-killer's experiences 'bliss' when s/he kills others, hence the uncaring (of others suffering and possible greater well-being) repetition of and addiction to said kind of action. The same applies to more 'normal' kinds of selfishness and personal bliss-enjoying.

You and I wouldn't call that 'enlightened' or an 'enlightened way' of being. Bliss-freaks might (could - 'cuz that too is optional) and often do, though. They bypass thoughts feelings of irritation, annoyance, hate, and anger etc. by just focusing on their 'own' bliss-'high' - I imagine Dahmer didn't have/entertain such 'negative' while killing his victims - only 'orgasmic' delight.

your comfusing bliss with doing. bliss is non doing. not an emotion. furthermore most problems result from somebody searching for joy. when one has it already. then you just eliminated the motive for doing horrible things.

almost if not all horrible things happen as a result of not having there own joy. so they wish to control the world to their liking.

most people even without their own source of joy(oneness) don't do horrible things. thankfully.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

When we look clearly at these examples given whether it’s Tolle, Etty, Adam’s or the bloke next-door you only have to observe what they do and understand the nature of what is happening and for why it is.

Why for an example are people swatting flies while proclaiming perma-bliss? why are people getting married when they proclaim having no identity or no-one is here ..

Hey there Daz :)
So...forget Tolle etc. Let's stick to Etty :). You are saying the actions do not match the words regarding their level of awareness at times, and that this seems hypocritical or lacking integrity. For Tolle, for most of us, yes...I would say it is probably some of that, at least at times.

For some, certainly like Etty and many masters, I would say that the authentic love of others is real, as is the description of being aware of and infused with a foundational joy of being.

So what do we make of it when awakened folks like Etty or Mother Theresa (etc) beg for strength to go on? I agree that at a certain level of awareness, they won't kill the fly (intentionally) or curse humanity, but even so, they too still have human weaknesses & vulnerabilities...and where is their bliss then, you might ask?

Yet the sublime joy is there -- perhaps even deeply so -- but it doesn't negate their humanity and their human experience, including their suffering. And importantly for most of us, to your point, the experience of ananda doesn't magically gift us with the ability to reconcile our hypocrisy and our lack of integrity in our day-to-day lives. Awakening simply underscores this very thing -- which you have been essentially speaking to.

But it's not the suffering itself that makes us hypocrites...and that is also important to acknowledge. We are allowed to honour and treasure all of our experience, including the suffering. Whilst held in foundational joy, Etty & Mother T could still experience deep suffering -- based on intrinsic human vulnerability such as being present to the suffering of others. This vulnerability is a great spiritual strength...and yet it often feels like and appears to be real suffering. It is the beauty and truth of the human experience, including what appears to be real suffering. By that, I mean the experiences and impact are eternally residual. They are not less real simply because they are temporally-based.

Since the reality of what we feel and experience is also good and true and beautiful in its inherent (i.e., real) nature, it will not and cannot be "overridden" by the sublime joy of being. It is like water from one place and water from another place. Different in some aspects but ultimately of the same fabric...one cannot negate the other. Instead they intermix. They exist in interbeing, just as everything else within All that Is. This is also from the Jesus teaching of the heart centre, actually.

I am glad you have understood the gist of what I was saying about sufferings regarding Etty and this is what I am trying to convey to other’s . To swat a fly reflects self that is suffering and in that reflection there is no Love of God present within their current awareness, but that doesn’t mean that the awareness doesn’t come back and go again lol a thousand times .

It’s about understanding what is permanent and what isn’t.

I think this gets back to one of your primary issues here, which is that the experience of ananda doesn't magically allow us to reconcile our hypocrisy and our lack of integrity in our day-to-day lives. Awakening simply underscores the hypocrisy, and I think that it's something humanity need to freely admit. But which most will not do until awakened and also courageous and strong enough to accept much of the fallout of awakening. And many of the lessons.

Something that came to mind just now which I think is relevant regarding my experience and it touches upon what I am speaking of. A while after I returned in awareness of the mind-body after my bliss-realisation I became aware of my legs that were numb and had no feeling to them, I had been sitting for hours in a particular position and you could of stuck needles in my legs lol and I wouldn’t of felt them ..

Now one moment there was total absorption of Love-Bliss-God, the next moment there was suffering. You can’t have both at the same time.

I don’t think there is the understanding had for some where suffering is awareness of the self compared to not and this is why I have put a little distance between people thinking that there is perma-bliss while cursing the fly ..

What I am speaking of is miles apart it seems ..

Enlightenment, Bliss, Sufferings, God, Love are all topics that people don’t always agree upon ..

You can understand and see why ..

x dazzle x

Awakening is just the tip of the iceberg, for certain. Yes, it's quite scary when those who say they've awakened haven't yet fully owned up to their intrinsic humanity...and may do loads of really awful things just like all the rest whilst telling themselves,"I'm awakened so (skipping to the end) now I've got a full pass. I've touched the bliss so now I'm done. No need to seek to reconcile who I am at centre with who I am day-to-day. With my day-to-day intent, thought, word, and deed." The more honest amongst us will say, now we can be honest about our shortcomings and really get to work...coz just look at them...wow." Even though, yes, experiencing the sublime joy is great and helps all round.

I would also say, however, that once we own our intrinsic humanity, that's when we can really begin to exercise our choice to be present to ourselves and one another, and to take more conscious choices so we don't tell those we love that we hate them, and so forth. So that we can more truly and more fully be the love we are at centre.

Last, once we take ownership, I also hope we can honour our humanity with our engagement and our presence in being and doing...like Etty did for herself and all those around her, and put to rest this whole idea that disengaging for the purposes of seeking or even attaining permabliss to the exclusion of all else is "the ideal". As I think that in itself is part of the issue. I would also say being the love and experience the joy is not so much a binary thing, but rather a spectrum of being and becoming.

Coz to repeat myself, it seems to me awakening is an inside job for humanity as a whole as much as for any one person, and that no one person can carry it or fulfill it by themselves...

Peace & blessings
7L

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by God-Like

To swat a fly reflects self that is suffering and in that reflection there is no Love of God present within their current awareness, ...

Last week, I chose to kill a rattlesnake by cutting off its head using a shovel rather than let it hang out in my friend's backyard which might possibly have resulted in one of her dogs or cats getting bit and dying. This did not indicate that there was "no love of God" present within my current awareness. God, to me, is Life, and Life, to me, is Love and Joy, and maximizing (i.e. optimizing and augmenting) The Flow of Love and Joy (i.e. of Life, or God) is the inner imperative I seek to actualize to the best of my ability and continue to do 'better'.

Swatting a fly which keeps on returning to feed on one's sweat may (though it also, of course, may not) be undertaken/executed in the same spirit.

Gaia will soon shortly rid this planet of billions of people - only the lucky ones that will experience such elimination as as a simple one-time swat - for the same Godly reason! Time to stop thinking/arguing oversimply seeing everything as black-or-white while presuming to be God-Like one.

[davidsun]

If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both.

I find this kind of 'irrational' (ill-logical) prejudice-based pronouncement to be grossly self-serving (smug one-upmanship exercising) and Life-at-Large disserving. It is unbecoming and disrespectable in anyone who isn't mentally retarded, IMO.

Can you grok the Life-Lovingness of this 'swat', presuming himself to be God-Like one?

[davidsun]

I'll go one step further by 'asserting' the 'observation' that

If you use your mind to study reality, you won't understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you'll understand both.

is downright Orwellian - from https://www.orwelltoday.com/dblspkthennow.shtml :

In "1984" Orwell introduced us to the words doublethink and newspeak.

A word he DIDN'T use - but which combines the two - is doublespeak.

Doublespeak is saying one thing and meaning another, usually its opposite.

In 1984 when BIG BROTHER and the Party say PEACE they mean WAR, when they say LOVE they mean HATE, and when they say FREEDOM they mean SLAVERY.

What's more, the FACT that such supremely smug statement was made by a person who 'dressed' himself (or herself as the case may unlikely be) using a screen-name of "Questions" is glaringly hypocritical 'icing' on the meant to put someone else's considered opinion 'down' pronouncement-'cake'.

Double-swat worth the effort just in case the first one didn't do the intended 'job', aye what God-Like?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Bing-Go! The 'could' indicates something optional. A serial-killer's experiences 'bliss' when s/he kills others, hence the uncaring (of others suffering and possible greater well-being) repetition of and addiction to said kind of action. The same applies to more 'normal' kinds of selfishness and personal bliss-enjoying.

You and I wouldn't call that 'enlightened' or an 'enlightened way' of being. Bliss-freaks might (could - 'cuz that too is optional) and often do, though. They bypass thoughts feelings of irritation, annoyance, hate, and anger etc. by just focusing on their 'own' bliss-'high' - I imagine Dahmer didn't have/entertain such 'negative' while killing his victims - only 'orgasmic' delight.

Most of us would agree Jeffrey Dahmer had issues and they were not all eating issues.
But when we delve into the behaviour of some people claiming to be "enlightened", they seem to display
similar disorders that Jeffrey possessed. The main difference is the "enlightened" ones have not acted out
and crossed the line by physically doing bad things but their "mouths" normally give them away.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Paramhansa Yogananda, explains that bliss is, “a transcendental state of superior calm including within itself the consciousness of a great expansion and that of ‘all in One and One in all.

Bliss is an innate state of inner joy. It is constant, undisturbed by outward gain or loss. We all have the capacity for it, no matter our age, background, physical or mental disabilities, ethnicity, gender, or religion. External circumstances, whether positive or negative, happy or sad, do not affect it..

Thank you for your input JustBe.

Or one could call it ‘Grace’ …. a both - and view which is a bit like standing in a doorway between non-duality and duality ….

*

Though coming from mythological/animist thinking (and repeating myself here like a worn out tape recorder) ….

"Mind-over-matter (reality)" is not mythological/animist thinking.

Mythological/animist thinking is a non-thought rather, that can better be described as “seeing”. Seeing/Witnessing Spirit and Matter entwined in eternal embrace, like two lovers, one being the reflection of the other......

Timelessness unfolding itself as time. The immovable forever in motion. The formless expressing itself as form. Multiplicity as Oneness ....

How brave it is to live in the ever presence of The Lord of Death, that has given us Life!
The Unborn forever in birth & death cycle.


When one becomes more centered in Spirit (of Totality), one starts to lose the heavy sense of me, I, as something very solid and even "real" ... (and like the "two-edge-sword"... one starts to perceive all phenomenal existence .... and other people ...and situations, - as less solid and "real" also).

I suppose here is where the transparency of self and others, Spirit and Matter comes in.

With this transparency one starts to silently witness one's body more as an energy (field), therefore also seeing-witnessing reality more in interconnected-energy-fields-terms; - hence a sense of a dance of energies develops …. that is more intuitive and co-creative with Spirit, than the old solid self forever dancing to the tune dictated by this egoic-self trying to fortify, validate, secure or shield itself against the "external world" to win over perceived negativity (everything which might threaten its solidity) and thus trying to secure a kind of eternal, positive, static happiness state for this egoic-self by clinging ….


At one point reality might seem more like a “dream” and “emptiness full & form empty”, but this should not be misunderstood as a psychopathic dissociated state.

Because of dissociation psychopaths might feel more ‘real’ when they are dreaming than when in waking awareness. Therefore I guess, it is nothing to them to take on different personalities (like in a dream) and faking emotions and emotional or "spiritual" id stories to secure their victims, a bit like paedophiles creating “safe houses” for children …..

Please understand what dissociation is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2zeOdE5GY

Test:
https://www.mind-diagnostics.org/dis..._disorder-test


Nor is this expanded awareness a narcissist’s modus operandi …. trying to mind-control others by preaching the ‘right’ behaviour/responsiveness (to them) using mind's army (the emotional drama) as well.

*