The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 144 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

... saying morality has nothing to do with craving is ludicrous.
I was saying morality in Buddhism is without authority
... the way of truth rather than the way of temptation and being true to yourself.

Since you wrote that "saying morality has nothing to do with craving is ludicrous" , then please elaborate on your statement in post 126 that "Morality relates directly to the cause of suffering, craving". Sky and I both have stated that morality and craving seem like two different things so perhaps you would elaborate more on the direct connection that you somehow perceive between the two.

In post 126, you also wrote: "Being true to yourself is the essential morality of the meditation." Based on your statement, it would seem that either morality is subjective (based on being true to your self as you perceive yourself) ... or ... you are referring to one's ultimate True Self. If it is the latter, then it cannot possibly be the first step for "novices" especially since you concede that "morality in Buddhism is without authority".

Your posts on morality and craving are very confusing (at least to me). I am trying to make sense of them.

Your reference to "the way of truth" (quoted above) as the one way is quite general but nonetheless reasonable. However, that seems to support my position that discovering Right Understanding (Truth) should be first and foremost and, in keeping with that, the Buddha has clearly indicated the starting point in this "circular EightFold Path" as Right Understanding. All the rest, including morality, follows quite naturally from that Right Understanding which eventually shines through during one's spiritual journey without distance.

Your post 126: https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=126

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 145 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

...just to be clear, my personal distaste for men kissing is but one of many erotic acts that turn me off.
I'm not talking about morality in that way. I'm just talking about the universal things like having a sense of truth, the ability of truthfulness, trust and refuge...... - such things that are the same for everyone.
Have you noticed how often you appeal to authority, and how I rarely if ever do.

Based on your statement quoted above, it seems that your equanimity (e.g. gagging when seeing two men kiss, being turned off) is quite easily disturbed.

Let's talk about your perception of morality as "the universal things like having a sense of truth, the ability of truthfulness, trust .... ". Do you really believe that "such things are the same for everyone"? Just introduce the subject of "what is Truth" in a group and my sense is that the answer will NOT be "the same for everyone". Morality based on one's perception of truth is thus subjective.

As for you rarely appealing to authority, you quote the Buddha quite regularly. I rely on direct experience and I simply quote others whose words I have validated and thus speak from direct experience while mentioning those who pointed me to Truth.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 149 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustBe

@gemI think people are often trying to prove
you wrong.
I’m not sure why.

It's all a play of consciousness. Enjoy !

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

It seems quite obvious (at least to us) that morality and craving are indeed "totally different" and that "not all cravings cause sufferings either ...

Definition of craving. : an intense, urgent, or abnormal desire or longing.

Craving I think is probably not the best word as it implies an extreme. Other words meaning the same basic thing are desiring, wanting, seeking, which don't imply some kind of overwhelming out of control thing. Craving reminds me of some addiction. Like you want something so bad it's out of your control. That not getting something you crave is extreme suffering. Like saying I crave chocolate. It's like saying you can't live without it. This craving will bug you until you satisfy it.

Morality is linked to selfishly (with no thought of the other) desiring various things like money, physical pleasure, power, etc. I think there is a link between wanting or desiring (craving in the extreme) things and morality. Like stealing is a result of wanting what others have. Wars are a result of wanting what others have. Or for controlling what others do.

But the root of the immorality is a lack of compassion and empathy for the other. Like I see a neighbor has a new car. I want that, desire that, crave that! But I would not take it in a million years for a lot of reasons. It's simply not right. I could go to jail. I would feel bad. I know it's immoral and wrong.

People steal millions of cars everyday. For them, they have justified it as being ok in their minds. They want or need money, or cars. I can't really judge others as I don't know their circumstances but I would assume there are better ways to make money or to support oneself.

In the eightfold path - right action, right livelihood, right effort, stealing cars would not be right I don't think.

Like you point out, one can desire or want or crave good things like peace on earth. So wanting or craving does not always point to immorality. One can crave to follow the eightfold path. But the word crave again implies an out of control desire. Want is a better word. I want to follow the eightfold path, not that I crave it. Crave tends to represent someone who is overwhelmed by their emotions and impulses. Like it is out of their hands. Like drug addictions. The human body can crave things. Overwhelm us. Scientists say a sugar addiction is like that.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Let's talk about your perception of morality as "the universal things like having a sense of truth, the ability of truthfulness, trust .... ". Do you really believe that "such things are the same for everyone "

No We make our own morals based purely on what WE find to be beneficial rather than objectively right or good, so what's beneficial for one isn't the same for all. 'Right Understanding' would help our choices

[Maisy]

I think that gets to the root of it all. What do we find beneficial? Here's the difference. Some are self centered. So to them, it's moral if it's beneficial to me. I can steal a car and it is is moral and ok because it is beneficial to me. I need a new car. I need money.

But then others are not so self centered. They have empathy and compassion for others. So for them, stealing a car would not be moral as it harms someone else.

I think that's the big difference. Some are self centered and selfish, so their morality does not include others. If it helps me, gives me what I want, it is moral. Others include others in their thinking. If it helps me, gives me what I want AND others it is moral.

I would guess it is objectively right or good to include others in our decisions. It's higher morals. The expanded 4 noble truths speak about others:

Four Noble Truths, 2 correct intention, avoiding thoughts of attachment, hatred, and harmful intent, (towards others) 3 correct speech, refraining from verbal misdeeds such as lying, divisive speech, harsh speech, and senseless speech, (towards others) 4 correct action, refraining from physical misdeeds such as killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct, (towards others)

Life is all about interactions with others. That's where karma is created. I think these parts of the eightfold path deal with how we interact with others:

2. RIGHT RESOLVE
The aspiration to act with correct intention, doing no harm.

3. RIGHT SPEECH
Abstaining from lying, and divisive or abusive speech.

4. RIGHT ACTION
Acting in ways that do not cause harm, such as not taking life, not stealing, and not engaging in sexual misconduct.

5. RIGHT LIVELIHOOD
Making an ethically sound living, being honest in business dealings.

The others parts of the eightfold path seem more about our inner state to me. 1, 6, 7, and 8.

1. RIGHT VIEW
A true understanding of how reality and suffering are intertwined.

6. RIGHT EFFORT
Endeavoring to give rise to skillful thoughts, words, and deeds and renouncing unskillful ones.

7. RIGHT MINDFULNESS
Being mindful of one’s body, feelings, mind, and mental qualities.

8. RIGHT CONCENTRATION
Practicing skillful meditation informed by all of the preceding seven aspects.

These 8 can be interpreted in different ways though.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

the last thing I want is my cool thread to be personal.

I think that's the goal isn't it? To "be" so unattached and impersonal nothing others say (or our own minds) touches us in anyway?

"We have taken birth in a human body." That's the fundamental problem I think. Our whole culture is designed to make everything personal. Our body and brain is designed to make everything personal. We experience everything from this singular body we are in so everything is personal! Everything revolves around "how does it effect me."

But then we have very little control. Zero control about what others say and do. We don't even have control over what our own minds do. We don't have any control over what giant karma might be coming our way.

But can we be empty and impersonal by consciously removing our involvement with these inner and outer things?

"Discovering emptiness brings a lightness of heart, flexibility, and an ease that rests in all things. The more solidly we grasp our identity, the more solid our problems become." —Jack Kornfield

Can we be without "person" so nothing is personal? Be fully "I AM" but only as a representation of our emptiness? Seems hard, to have no opinion, no agenda, to speak without any attachment, to let others be whatever they are with no judgement or feeling like I must get involved.

"Lord make me an instrument of your peace" St. Francis. I have to choose that peace in each moment by taking my attention off of mind. Off the "personal" interpretation of now or of what is.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

Just have to understand that I only explain what I mean. I'm not right and it's not the answer. It's just different levels of nuance.Thus 'only one' takes on meaning in the overall context and is not a factual statement that stands on its own as being right. .

It will always be difficult explaining the deeper interplay of the whole context, until you see your own inside you and how all things work together, even I understand that in my own process and experience. People who can’t see the whole context will ‘seperate’ it out. And will try to prove that separateness. Because within their truth and the truth of what they see it’s the one looking and understanding only as deep as they understand themselves in it.

I hope that makes sense.

I am not here defending your view. So you won’t get big fat smilies and thumbs up from me lol.

I’m not here trying to express through right or wrong views either. I’m more understanding the whole interplay as you’ve expressed and I am willing and able to see where your coming from because I can.

I liked what maisy says about personal/impersonal.

Sometimes you need some impersonal emots and sides to wiggle you around a bit to reclaim from a place of centredness your truth as only you know yourself.

[JustBe]

@maisy

I liked reading your post.

It is the goal indeed.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 155 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by sky

We make our own morals based purely on what WE find to be beneficial rather than objectively right or good, so what's beneficial for one isn't the same for all. 'Right Understanding' would help our choices

That's precisely the point I am making.

Morality is subjective "based purely on what WE (or society in general) find to be beneficial".

Right Understanding would definitely help our choices.