The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[Gem]

Originally Posted by saurab

craving alone is not the cause of misery,

Since philosophical concepts entail specific meanings, 'craving' is the cause of suffering because it is specifically defined as the cause of suffering in Buddhist philosophy, but then the word 'suffering' becomes the semantic debate. This leads nowhere. The way to understand isn't really semantic or intellectual, but during meditation you can see in yourself, 'this is suffering,' you know directly what suffering is like and don't need a conceptual reference, and also see how the tension of aversion and desire, aka 'craving', is how we cause our own suffering.

I know people don't like to hear it and we can say 'when you are enlightened' or 'when you get to this stage' you don't need whatever, but there's a difference between dealing with the reality of your life and saying something that sounds kinda spiritual, but I'm as sure as the day is long that near enough everyone contributing to this thread generates ill-will and suffering many times a day. It's just we have to look directly at how it applies to and impacts our own lives.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

That's why the 'many paths' fallacy doesn't hold water. There is a path of truth, and it's the only way. When we go against it, we know how that feels, and it also a deception within ourselves. Like we are not being true to ourselves.What takes us off the path? '.

Perhaps in the ‘many paths’ that mountain climb where you feel the pain, get those blisters, your feet hurt, the rain and cold sink in, leads you to another path where someone on that same mountain calls to you “come over here a while, I’ve got a warm fire, nice cosy tent, we can eat together, rest a while. Tomorrow is a new day” .. Tackle that mountain tomorrow once again, when your rested and your minds less agitated hey? The guy thinks, this is an aversion, a distraction I can’t do that. I’ve got to keep going on my path. Tackle this mountain, reach the summit” so he ignores the crusader and battles on..

He begins climbing once more, but not long after, he slips, falls hard and rolls back down the mountain, losing all his belongings, he is bruised and bloodied, hurting badly. Good thing he landed right near his crusader..

I guess the moral is this..

distraction and truth can sometimes lead you off the path that’s good for you.. haha

Maybe in the many ways to learn, their are many paths to unlearn too..

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

something she said

I guess it's just because I did a few treks and the last thing I want to see is other people in tents. But I also know if you go off the right path, you can get lost for a while, and might have to turn around and walk back again for a couple of hours. The blisters, pain, rain, mud, bugs and the drop-bears are all part of the journey, and it makes you wonder, why do people even do these things?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

It certainly does and is the beginning and the end of the path....

Excellent point ! The Eight-Fold Path is like a spiral upwards (metaphorically speaking) with right understanding (our ideal initially) and Right Understanding (the Buddha's Right Understanding) being the beginning and the end of the path.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 123 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Maisy

All the rest flow from right understanding:
I think right understanding is not something one holds as an idea, it is a transformative awareness or knowledge which changes how I relate to everything in the present moment.

That is very well said. The Right Understanding of the Buddha is ultimately "a transformative awareness ...which changes how I relate to everything in the present moment". It is not possible to describe in words.

The Buddhist Jhanas (absorptions) are essentially thought-free and concept-free with the exception of the very first jhana (thought injection and discursive thought). In the transformed awareness of Right Understanding, one knows without thinking. I agree completely that Right Understanding is NOT an "idea".

As sky posted previously, right understanding is paradoxically both the beginning and the end of the path .... with a major transformation (at least for me) in between.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 130 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by sky

... the reason Buddhist list 'Right Understanding' as the first is because it involves seeing that that there are causes/reasons for our suffering
With 'Right Understanding' we see that there is a way to transcend suffering by following the Noble Eightfold Path.

That is very well said, and I can't add anything more to that. It is my understanding as well that this is precisely why the Buddha listed 'Right Understanding' FIRST.

As you also noted, all the steps are important ... but one must start somewhere.

NOTE: Since administrative guidelines limit the amount of information that we can quote, I am providing a direct link to your post so that interested people can access it quickly.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=130

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 125 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

... if you think about it, the novice doesn't start with wisdom, understanding, right view or whatever you want to call it. The novice starts with morality because you can't practice rightly without moral foundations.
... you can't have trust without morality I see nothing wrong with moral vows.

First of all, I agree with you that "The 8 path is typically thought of in circular form" spiraling upwards (metaphorically speaking). That seems to be the consensus here as well.

You wrote that "the novice doesn't start with wisdom, understanding, right view or whatever you want to call it". Everyone, including novices, have some understanding (albeit quite limited in many cases) of the reality. Everyone has some ideal ... an initial understanding that can transform quite radically as they practice the Eightfold Path that guides one to the Right Understanding of the Buddha. One starts with where the novice is at and proceeds from there. I can unequivocally state that my "right understanding" (intentionally lower case) at the beginning of my spiritual journey as a Roman Catholic is now radically different from my initial understanding as a "novice". The "circular" Eightfold Path addresses this transformation quite well.

Let's proceed to your point that the novice must start with morality. I will start with one moral issue related to YOUR often-discussed statement that you literally "gag" when you see two men kissing. You obviously find such a same-sex act sufficiently repugnant to trigger a "gagging" reaction. I'm not sure whether you would consider such an act immoral or not but there are many "religious" authorities who consider same-sex relationships to be immoral. The point that I am making is that "morality" can be very subjective at times. I could easily have brought up other subjective "morality" issues such as abortion, contraception, inter-racial marriages (a big morality issue with the Mormons at one time), and so on. One could even debate moral issues related to "stealing" as in the case of Jean Valjean in the classic fictional novel "Les Miserables".

To suggest that YOUR view of morality or the morality views of your sangha or the morality pronouncements of any other "authority" figure for that matter should be the starting point for a Buddhist aspirant is potentially problematic. One could have endless arguments about the morality of just the few issues I mentioned above...and never proceed further. The judgmental "morality preachers" rarely command my trust as many of them seem to have significant issues of their own. Personally, if my first Buddhist encounter was with a Buddhist like yourself who "gags" when he sees two men kissing, my reaction would be that this person has issues to resolve and I would probably have gone elsewhere without even starting on the Eightfold Path. However, if the person first introduced Right Understanding ( beginning with the four Noble Truths as the Buddha himself did in his first sermon at Deer Park) and proceeded from there, I would be much more inclined to investigate further. The Buddha clearly knew what he was doing --- absolutely brilliant psychologically.

Regarding vows, I don't see anything wrong with vows. I noted that they are disciplinarian in nature and are more a mark of bondage than liberation. Even fledgling trees have tree guards until they mature. You took umbrage at my reference to Jesus' remarks against taking vows, but I also gave a practical example of well-intentioned but problematic vows from the Mahabharata. Vows can be useful up to a point, but they are a mark of bondage to self-imposed rules and, as the expression goes, there is an exception to every rule ...but not for the person bound to a vow. Having said that, do what you wish as far as vows are concerned....whatever you feel is best for you personally.

NOTE: You really might want to explore Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras as Pantanjali starts with morality in his treatise on Asthanga Yoga (Eight-Limbed Yoga). There are many paths to the peak of the metaphorical mountain top.This discussion would be totally different if we were discussing Pantanjali. Personally, I am a "tweener" between Pantanjali and the Buddha so I do understand where you are coming from. However, there are differences between the two approaches.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 126 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

Morality relates directly to the cause of suffering, craving.
As an analogy, lets say there is a big mountain and the path leads to the summit.

Morality has nothing to do with craving. As a matter of fact, moral decrees by authoritarian figures can create severe neurosis and innerconflicts.
I love the BIG mountain analogy. Keep in mind, however, that there are many paths to the mountain top ... not "only one".

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 132 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustBe

Perhaps in the ‘many paths’ that mountain climb where you feel the pain, get those blisters, your feet hurt, the rain and cold sink in, leads you to another path
Maybe in the many ways to learn, their are many paths to unlearn too..

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

Wait until you get to a point in your life when vows and reminders are not needed, then you know you've succeeded ....

I the way you express yourself !
My sentiments exactly!