Please Answer This Question

[Seawolf]

There is the sensual, carnal...the evolved animal/mammal, and those who are "inured" at different levels therein;
there is the "angelic", and spiritual, and those who want to attend to this aspect more, (which also involves morality, conscience, and ethics in the Construct).

There are those who feel that liberty and freedom involve no restrictions on doing anything they want in the body;
and there are those who understand that there is responsibility and consequence to our actions... and how they affect others in the world.

For some reason Christianity seems to focus alot on other people's behavior. I don't think the universe works that way. I like what Jesus said -- 'if you do not forgive then you will not be forgiven.' To me it's not about 'I was pardoned so it's only right to pardon others', it means both are connected. The person who's sin I see is actually part of me as well. When I'm disturbed at the speck in someone's eye, there's really a moat in mine.

There is “A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature,” by David Jeffery. In which you will find written, “Many scholars consider the new Revised Standard Version of the King James translation, which is probably the most widely used version of the English bible today, and considered by most modern scholars to be to be the most accurate translation of the Old Testament. It follows the modern consensus in translating ‘Almah’ as ‘Young Woman’ in Isaiah 7: 14. In 1973, an ecumenical edition of RSV was approved by both Protestant and Catholic hierarchies, called the common bible.

As a matter of fact, I have in front of me, A New English Translation of the Bible, published in 1970 and approved by the council of churches in England, Scotland, Wales, the Irish council of churches, the London Society of Friends, and the Methodist and Presbyterian churches of England in which Isaiah 7: 14; reads, "A young woman is with child, etc.

The Bible Societies Chain Reference Good News Bible, which is the Catholic Study Edition, with Imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon, and The New Revised Standard Bible, in both translations of Isaiah 7: 14; is found, a “Young Woman,” who (IS) pregnant will have a son and will name him Immanuel.” And this is what Matthew's translation also says. "A 'parthenos' (unmarried female) is with child etc."

I know that Minds Eye was not implying that the virgin birth actually occurred, but He was implying that it was an actual teaching of the Holy scriptures, rather than the yeast that was added to God's word, by ignorant interpretations of the Hebrew and early Greek bibles, which ignorant interpretations, were formulated by men, of the church of Constantine, such as Jerome, who, in the fourth century, translated, through their erroneous interpretations, the "Latin Vulgat." These men who in the main, had converted from the Roman belief in Isis and her brother Osiris from the inner dimension, with whom she mated and bore the god child "Horus," or the Greek belief of Zeus the Father of all gods, who mated with his sister Demeter, from a lower world, who bore the god child "Dionysus." Men who still believed that the earth was flat, around which revolved the entire cosmos, which was created by, as they beleived, "Jesus and his father," only some ten thousand year previously and was created in six literal 24 hour days.

Originally Posted by Mind's Eye

But laying out lists of Bible passages is hardly evidence that will bring something down. Maybe it does if you believe it can... I've seen people present historical or scientific fact that refuted some Biblical claim, and then the Christians come along and try to debunk the concrete facts and findings with Bible verses???????

That hardly makes sense to me, and is a waist of my time and energy to spend time looking up facts so that you can answer them by posting a quote from Daniel, Isaiah or Luke.... Sorry friend, no takers here.

But your challenge, was that you could provide me with a whole list of reputable scholars who could refute the young unmarried woman translation of Isaiah.

The concrete fact that your chosen champion from among that whole list of reputable scholars, who you believe can refute the young unmarried woman translation of Isaiah, is that the Hebrew has a specific term for "VIRGIN," which is "Bethulah," the term that is used in every instance in the Old Testament, where a woman, who is known to have never had sexual relations with a man is referred to.

And here, I repeat what I have previously said: Before you send out your chosen champion, let him go to “A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature,” by David Jeffery. There he will find written, “Many scholars consider the new Revised Standard Version of the King James translation, which is probably the most widely used version of the English bible today, and considered by most modern scholars to be to be the most accurate translation of the Old Testament.

It follows the modern consensus in translating ‘Almah’ as ‘Young Woman’ in Isaiah 7: 14. In 1973, an ecumenical edition of RSV was approved by both Protestant and Catholic hierarchies, called the common bible. As a matter of fact, I have in front of me, A New English Translation of the Bible, published in 1970 and approved by the council of churches in England, Scotland, Wales, the Irish council of churches, the London Society of Friends, and the Methodist and Presbyterian churches of England.

I have before me The Bible Societies Chain Reference Good News Bible, which is the Catholic Study Edition, with Imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon, and The New Revised Standard Bible, and turning to Isaiah 7: 14; both are seen to have, “A Young Woman,” who (IS) pregnant will have a son and will name him Immanuel.” She was not a virgin mate, if that was what the Lord had wished his prophet to convey, He would have used the specific Hebrew term for "Virgin," which is, "BETHULAH."

Originally Posted by Seawolf

For some reason Christianity seems to focus alot on other people's behavior.

And it doesn't matter how good you are as a person either... If your not a Christian, your just automatically bad.

Can't we all just get along?

[Lightspirit]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

For some reason Christianity seems to focus alot on other people's behavior. I don't think the universe works that way. I like what Jesus said -- 'if you do not forgive then you will not be forgiven.' To me it's not about 'I was pardoned so it's only right to pardon others', it means both are connected. The person who's sin I see is actually part of me as well. When I'm disturbed at the speck in someone's eye, there's really a moat in mine.

I am sure glad I don't attend the church that gave you that impression.

Mine focuses on self improvement an learning the teachings of Jesus.


It also focuses on using yourself to serve others and gives you opportunities to bring that out if you want.


What I experience is a nice place to be full of happy people who are not being critical of outsiders.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by lightworkerAu

I am sure glad I don't attend the church that gave you that impression.

Mine focuses on self improvement an learning the teachings of Jesus.


It also focuses on using yourself to serve others and gives you opportunities to bring that out if you want.


What I experience is a nice place to be full of happy people who are not being critical of outsiders.

That's great, I think that's the way it should be. It seems like we're moving in that direction, but at least here in the US we haven't gotten to that point yet. We're often behind the rest of the world in progressive ideas though.

[Morpheus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus
Convincing a Jew or non believer I don't think is relevant. There are those predestined to believing, and those not.

Minds Eye:
You might want to pause there and go back and check your beliefs. The above view of predestination was never taught in Christianity until John Calvin concocted it in the 1500's I believe. Calvin and Luther are looked at as heroes and champions of the faith, but an honest historical look into their lives and teachings shows that they were quite off center in their personal lives. Martin Luther even said before he died that he never meant for his reformation to cause a break from the Church of Rome.

Not sure why you would want to re-direct to personal lives of notables in the faith.
Imperfection is a given, and involves all of us. ?
Luther was addicted to alcohol, we are to understand, and, AA was not yet initiated. Yet, his acomplishments are evident in history regarding his work in freeing the Bible from the cellars of the Catholic Church, english translations in the services, ending of "indulgences" in the Church, and as PBS so adequetly reported in one program, was in part responsible for the new democratic nation called, "America".

Jesus spoke of "The Elect", no?
"Predestined" is well used in scripture.

St. Paul, also, gave attention to the situation.

"16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
http://kingjbible.com/romans/9.htm

But, also in the Old Testament, which Paul was well studied in...(Yet he still needed revelation to recognize Christ.),


"9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman,
What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,
Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. "

Isaiah 45

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Not sure why you would want to re-direct to personal lives of notables in the faith.
Imperfection is a given, and involves all of us. ?
Luther was addicted to alcohol, we are to understand, and, AA was not yet initiated. Yet, his acomplishments are evident in history regarding his work in freeing the Bible from the cellars of the Catholic Church, english translations in the services, ending of "indulgences" in the Church, and as PBS so adequetly reported in one program, was in part responsible for the new democratic nation called, "America".

Jesus spoke of "The Elect", no?
"Predestined" is well used in scripture.

St. Paul, also, gave attention to the situation.

"16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
http://kingjbible.com/romans/9.htm

But, also in the Old Testament, which Paul was well studied in...(Yet he still needed revelation to recognize Christ.),


"9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman,
What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,
Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. "

Isaiah 45

Nothing that anybody does now or in the future has been predestined. "The "Son of Man," who descends from the ends of this cycle of universal activity, knows everything that you have done in his past, and his past, just as your past cannot be changed.

[Reverend Keith]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Keith, we do understand concenring Isaiah, that in Jewish law and practice it would have been blasphemy to call a mere mortal "Mighty God", and, "Everlating Father", true? Was he talking about king Hezakiah then, or other?
For the same, they wanted to stone Jesus...
For the same, judgement came upon Herod, in the new testament.

But, either way there is allowance for the judgement of stoning for blasphemy in the Law. True?

The Jews would actually translate the verse:

"A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the ruler of peace"

So that the name, rather than proclaiming it's bearer AS God, was simply a praise to God or a declaration about God, as were many Israelite names. Such as Elijah (Yaweh is my God) or Jehoshaphat (Yaweh Judges). Or even Yeshua (Yaweh saves)

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Juanita:

Yes, this is a repeated statement among the disaffected, but, no attention or satisfactory explanation is given to the prophecies, such as I cited, which are rather detailed, and beginning from back to the Book of Genesis, and continue through the many ages of scripture.

Meanwhile, they continue to unfold, presently.Mind? Gee, interesting you brought that up about the NDE accounts. ?
Your bias is showing.
When you cite, "Christian", you are referring to Judeo Christianity? True?

I was referring to the many statements, however, regarding, "time", and the alteration, and absence of it, by Experiencers...
Glad you are having a good, "time", though, ignoring the facts.
Interesting to observe.
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"From The Book of Daniel" written, around, 587-530 B.C.

Daniel 7:13,14 -
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed"

Also, King David, in Psalms 110 -
"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."
(David lived between, 1040 - 970, B.C.)

where does it say that these so called prophecies referred to the man named Jesus?????? and if these so called prophecies were relevant in any way, why have the Jewish people themselves not accepted it?