Eckhart Tolle

Originally Posted by It Is

... There's alot of romanticism about what enlightenment is, but as I understand it, there is the initial bliss of ego transcendence followed by years of maturation and refinement. [/color]

Jyotir explains it pretty well; one of the best references on this forum IMO.

JL

[JosephineB]

Sad. And certainly not Buddhist, Christian or Sufi (maybe some orthodox Christians like the concept of sin but even that is different to people who think "we are all monsters" - sad, very very sad.)

It's like the sun - the sun is always there, but due to the influence of clouds and wind, it's not clear. No-one is born a monster, and to say humans are, is to misunderstand their divine potentiality.

You are still in denial about your own monster. Things won't start happening in earnest for you until you accept this.

Glad you got the message. I'm not the first person you stalk around and have issues with, and I won't be the last.

JL

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by janielee

Glad you got the message. I'm not the first person you stalk around and have issues with, and I won't be the last.

JL

You could be a great asset to Buddhism, but you must get over this hurdle first.

[django]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

You are still in denial about your own monster. Things won't start happening in earnest for you until you accept this.

I think this would be a good conversation in the shadow thread, and I hope JL will join it there. @JL I'll respond to your post in that thread.

[sky]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

You could be a great asset to Buddhism, but you must get over this hurdle first.

" You could be a great asset to Buddhism "

I don't know about hurdles but JL is very well versed in Buddhism and is definitely an asset.

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by sky123

" You could be a great asset to Buddhism "

I don't know about hurdles but JL is very well versed in Buddhism and is definitely an asset.

You are right, he is very well versed in Buddhism. I've also seen an undertone of negative in a few posts. I don't want to embarrass him. He is welcome to PM me so I can explain and then post my PM's if he wishes. Just so he knows I'm not trying to hide anything.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

... thread seems to have deviated from Tolle to something else!

Taking the crux of the message rather than the perceived personality of the messenger, what’s our take on ‘present moment orientation’ in a continuum of course with non-ego self presence alert and yet unexpectant in it?

***

[7luminaries]

Tolle has never resonated deeply with me because he doesn't go deeply into many key issues IMO. I don't find much that resonates beyond references to being in the moment, which many others have discussed more deeply IMO, particularly on anything referencing Buddhism. He is one of their own, a white Western dude, and he was young and shiny. That's ok, sure. But IMO that's likely a huge factor in his success along with very selective yet powerful New Age boosters like Oprah. If he were black and poor but somehow still managed to get published against all odds, it's possible Oprah would still have promoted him but also very likely he'd not get the same warm welcome from many others in the West. The whole key to projection and vicarious experience is that you can associate and identify with the other.

As God-Like noted, I also think many would not buy that Tolle really didn't have issues or sadness anymore when he'd just said he did but then chose to leave it and focus on happier stuff. If he were black and poor they might likely say he was also missing an opportunity to be authentic about his direct experiences of those who are less privileged (LOL), right? And, they'd be correct. How is who you are not relevant to your personal journey? Tolle, many could say, was missing an opportunity to deal with depression and mental illness more authentically, IMO, even from a place of privilege. Perhaps he didn't intent to do so, but promoting his coping mechanism as the road to enlightenment still amounts to harmful misdirection for many who think this is way to handle my depression or my other mood disorders or illnesses. Disassociation is itself an aspect of many mental illnesses, as well, along with a common outcome of severe trauma. In my experience, it's a traumatic place to be and you'd not choose it if you were in your right mind and in a good place. It is a place you aspire to heal from and to never return to.

Also, it has struck me that when others like the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hahn publish books or give paid talks, we assume the fund go to support their communities or to other charitable causes or needs. Because their lifestyle is austere and they have taken vows of poverty or against any needless accumulation beyond the most austere of measures.

Even so there are those like Osho who did fund their community but still committed grave harms but that is a different issue. Likewise we now look at basically every spiritual leader (nearly) who's not a committed celibate -- i.e., everyone but but Jesus, Buddha, and committed monastics like the Dalai Lama or TN Hahn -- and say that many if not most were flawed in their dealings with women, even if they were luminaries in our recent history for the cause of peace, justice, and humanitarianism (like Gandhi or MLK) . I think it points to an integrity gap that is rife in all aspects of human society where folks are not actively striving to live from centre, to live their values in the moment AND also being transparent AND being held accountable -- i.e., having to take ownership for your stuff. As Gem has discussed many times elsewhere, among others, the sangha or community helps to keep everyone honest because much of our interactions in a conscious community are intentionally public and communal and otherwise known. We stand behind them and likewise are expected to do so. In other words, we take ownership in the true sense. IMO this is a model for our wider society which likewise cannot provide a community of decency, honour, safety, and dignity for its members without ownership, transparency, and accountability.

IMO character and lifestyle are legitimate concerns for a spiritual teacher, more so when millions are made in the name of spirit and it is not going back into legitimate communities and causes (or we're not certain?). I do not think this can be easily separated from the message. What does it mean to be enlightened and to do the hard work of being here now when you've made millions off your books on how to be here now and how to be enlightened? Now what? Is it still about how you feel and are in the moment? Or is there actually attention paid to how you engage with the world in that moment, and an acknowledgement of the rest of humanity? What does anyone do with 70MM dollars once they've learnt to live from centre in the now? How do they conduct themselves in relationship to the rest of humanity and how do they engage with substance and meaning?

At what point (if any) on their do enlightened multimillionaires (especially those whose vocation is that of a guru) feel called to put their largesse to work on behalf of the greater good in the now, in this moment, where for many they lack essentials (food, medicine, peace, education, human rights, representation, sustainable incomes) and that is precisely the sort of suffering that CAN be addressed with wealth. It would be interesting to hear, actually, and maybe I'd given Tolle more weight as a result To me, it is not a coincidence that essentially every great spiritual teacher in the past was poor or chose to be poor and to live simply, and that in the present the authentic ones I've observed continue to do the same. Even the current pope strives to bring attention to the poor, the vulnerable, and the marginalised around the world and to live simply amidst great pomp and elaborate circumstance that is the wealthy catholic church, LOL.

Though I intend no disrespect to those that find something in his works that speaks to them. These are simply my thoughts.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

I think it's totally fine to be a spiritual teacher and be a millionaire at the same time .. but when such peeps find themselves in the spotlight one can't help but be scrutinised when what they teach seems to go against their way of living .. because anyone worthy of respect in my book has to live by example.

I think in this day and age there is plenty of written knowledge about spirituality and non duality and most can speak like a guru simply by studying the written word lol ..

I mean Wayne dyer was accused of plagiarism and if you look close enough to certain teachers there is a mixture of past knowledge in the mix of it all .

I remember some guru dude getting caught up in a scandal that ended up keeping out of the public eye and spent years studying the scriptures ..

I was thinking to myself what Self realized man needs to study the scriptures written by the hand of others?

I remember listening to Tolle on an interview (probably one of only two that I have actually watched) and found that he was quoting many other people famous in their fields of work as a reference to what he was teaching ..

To me this emphasises a mass of intellectual knowings similar to Dyer who infused his work with a lot of other eastern philosophies .. which is okay if that is what someone wants to do but how many teachers start from scratch based upon Self realization that don't relate to sanskrit terms or buddhists terms for examples sake ..

Post my realization I never spoke about it for years on end, I didn't even know what duality and non duality mean't before I engaged on this forum lol ..

Then you get the cool terms and names pop up for this specific experience and I am genuinely thinking .. where has these specific names and phrases come from? Who coined such references, why is everyone using such terms from text book meanings ... I found I couldn't speak about 'mind' for instance without confusing the life out of people because their only reference for it was wikipedia .. lol ..

I can only imagine, getting back on track that teachers in the spotlight can potentially have a difficult time, it seems there are going to be as many guru worshippers as there are bashers and people are going to be waiting for the mighty to fall unfortunately, but if you as said live by example then there will be no mud to stick to anything ..

While in Tolles case while there is 70 million sitting in the bank there are going to be questions raised in reflection of desires, attachments and needs etc .. that relate to his teachings ..

No-one perhaps is going to lose any sleep over it unless there is an attachment to it either way, either from Tolle or other's ..

I don't see personally how one can be non attached to something that one keeps hold of lol ..

It's easy to say I have a house and money but I am not attached to it but won't give it up without a fight ...

In regards to what you said about disassociation Amanda I agree, and it's funny that there is no disassociation in effect when it comes down to owning the money in a personalised bank account but when there is pain in or of the mind-body one should distance themselves from it .



x daz x