What I believe full enlightenment is

[BigJohn]

I wrote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn

As for the debate "Are Plants Conscious", the ones who will be debating will be some of the smartest people in the field. Your presentations might be valid, but you do not use standardize notations or expressions which means we have to guess what you are trying to express.

Your reply:

Originally Posted by r6r6

You can ask me about any "notation" regarding plant consicous", or not. Your choice to engage or just complain.
When you have any rational, logical common sense that adds to or invalidates my comments as presented, please share. You and other rarely do that.

Dear r6r6, T do not believe you are in the same category as reflective in the type of people who will be present for that debate.

But then if you can provide your qualifications, academic background, papers you have produced, etc. then upon examination, it may be worthy to ask you questions on the subject.
John

[God-Like]

In my day I have done many tree hugging weekends ..

We had a shaman talk and walk us through a preserved plot of land with dozens of different tree types and plant life ..

It was brimming with life so to speak ..

We experienced many types ceremonies and as a group we all individually felt energetically different plant / tree types while blindfolded so that we wouldn't be swayed by their appearance/s.

One particular instance I was blindfolded and led to a big oak and I had a vision of a druid type banging his staff on the ground 3 times, unknowingly this was a right of passage to the oak's spirit.

So many instances I have had with connecting with plant life leaves me with no doubt that they are conscious, I even had one silver birch give me the thought that it remembered me from a previous visit ..

A connection I had in my spirit circle was Marcel Vogel a spiritual scientist researcher who amongst other things wrote and experimented with the Communication between plants .

Interesting chap Marcel Vogel, it appears that from spirit he at times works along side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Vogel


x daz x

[BigJohn]

I ENJOYED WHAT YOU WROTE


What came to my mind when reading your experience was how small the World is: I have some Vogel crystals.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

In my day I have done many tree hugging weekends ..

We had a shaman talk and walk us through a preserved plot of land with dozens of different tree types and plant life ..

It was brimming with life so to speak ..

We experienced many types ceremonies and as a group we all individually felt energetically different plant / tree types while blindfolded so that we wouldn't be swayed by their appearance/s.

One particular instance I was blindfolded and led to a big oak and I had a vision of a druid type banging his staff on the ground 3 times, unknowingly this was a right of passage to the oak's spirit.

So many instances I have had with connecting with plant life leaves me with no doubt that they are conscious, I even had one silver birch give me the thought that it remembered me from a previous visit ..

A connection I had in my spirit circle was Marcel Vogel a spiritual scientist researcher who amongst other things wrote and experimented with the Communication between plants .

Interesting chap Marcel Vogel, it appears that from spirit he at times works along side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Vogel


x daz x

Yes, agreed Daz. They are conscious in their own way. They have a beautiful, grounded, healing energy. I find the energy in wooded parts is critical for mental and emotional balance & well-being.

I've grown up near wooded areas where our energy is secondary and becomes as it should be, one with all around it. I cannot be too far from them and get out in them regularly...it is a privilege not everyone has and that is a shame. I would say it is amazingly therapeutic...to walk and talk in the woods. To put our feet on the earth. And to be with the trees and the forest. I feel no fear in the woods...I feel supremely safe in the natural world, so long as we give it the respect it is due. We also take our animal spirit guide with us, IMO, and nature meets us on those terms.

Peace & blessings
7L

[r6r6]

God-Like---In my day I have done many tree hugging weekends ..

As a child I inadvertently hugged many trees.


As an adult I find the bark of many trees to be abrasive to my skin and not comfortable at all to hug.


Ive felled many more trees than Ive climbed or hugged.


Ive never hugged a tomatoe but I have had tomatoes fights for fun.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Hello 7L. Your above statement is redundant and does little to explain to be clear on what you two --or more kinds of consciousness-- are exactly, specifically and with clarity.

Hello r6...there is really only one "kind" or type of consciousness. Consciousness simply is and is unbounded (non-local) and beyond spacetime/material, finite existence.

However, consciousness is present at all "time" and "place" and so permeates (or animates) all materiality. It thus is able to individuate and inhabit seemingly paradoxical states, like being both One and many ones simultaneously.

Thus, there appear to be and in fact are two kinds or types of consciousness that we experience and apprehend:
The One consciousness (the infinite superset), and the various individuated and group consciousnesses (the infinite subsets) which have instantiated into individuated awareness within the One and who have been given individuated agency and autonomy of spirit. (There are lower levels of consciousness as well in all aspects of our material reality, as you mention, and you could put these in either category...of the One type as it is omnipresent, or of the many type but of a lower complexity).

Fermions and bosons have "properties" of spin, mass, charge, attraction, repulsion etc and we observe them when a particle detector goes PING! or lights LED or whatever and is associated to a discrete amount of fermionic or bosonic mass.

Whatever your two kinds of consciousness are specifically, I believe it is better if word 'aspects' of consciousness is assoicated rather than "propterties"

Based on your above comments ---that I have embolden-- think what your really saying and refuse to concede, is that one of your two kinds of consciousness is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

A conceptual triangle, horse, God, Universe, toyota etc have no "properties" of spin, mass, color, taste, charge etc. Do you understand 7L.

Ive been very clear on this with many posts laying out the above clearly in my Cosmic Trinity outline.

Ive also been clear human consciousness ---via our occupied space nervous system is the most complex because it has access to the most metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts. Do you understand this 7L?

This old news for me as Ive been posting it at SF for a year or more.
Humans nervous system consciousness > metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept

Less complex nervous system consciousness of animals that have much less access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

Less complex nervous system consciousness of animals with no access to metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts.

Then we have animals with no nervous system ergo a consciousness that is less complex than all of the above.

So and so on with other less complex biological/soul life and then we get to viruses and then minerals etc

Agreed there are different levels of consciousness or what we call sentience, more and less complex. These are all manifest "subsets" of the One consciousness. Though I do not intend to minimise our value -- we are all of unfathomable value within the tapestry of What Is. With sentient self-awareness, we are a part of the One sentient, self-aware consciousness...and for now, we are evolving in that sense all together when we incarnate here in this material realm.

The material realm is ultimately finite and yet it is critical to our ability to concretely manifest action and choice and consequences, and to learn and grow spiritually and emotionally. Perhaps we move as individuated consciousness to incarnate elsewhere in some other instance of a universe if this place is no more at some point. Who knows? THAT is the mystery and wonder of consciousness.

Peace & blessings
7L

[r6r6]

7luminaries-Hello r6... (There are lower levels of consciousness as well in all aspects of our material reality, as you mention, and you could put these in either category...of the One type as it is omnipresent, or of the many type but of a lower complexity).

"lower" meaning less complex to be clear.

Agreed there are different levels of consciousness or what we call sentience, more and less complex.

Human > cetacceans > chimps > birds > dogs{?} > worms{?} > jellyfish{?}


Ive been very clear on this topic for years now.

[sentient]

Life, Universe and Everything according to the ‘tipi-like-tent’ continued ……

To further illustrate the presence of the witness perspective, witness consciousness ….

From the sacred symbolism already present in primitive dwellings - the smoke hole of a tent "The Eagle Eye" (a breakthrough from plane to plane – communication with the transcendent …. to the “eye of the dome” religious architecture:
https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram...om&_nc_cat=107

First you develop the witness perspective and then ‘you’ (the shaman to be) go through the smoke hole on 'Thunderbird Eagle's' invitation - a hole in the World Pole .....

About witness consciousness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRAF6sULOQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SEfK4uFa8

*

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

"lower" meaning less complex to be clear.

r6, hello there! Yes, you're absolutely right. Meaning lower level of complexity and certainly not intending a lower level of anything else, like worth or value. Good clarification on your part and thanks for that. I discussed my meaning more later but good to note up front.

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Human > cetacceans > chimps > birds > dogs{?} > worms{?} > jellyfish{?}

Ive been very clear on this topic for years now.

So...interesting, that. I don't agree we are more advanced spiritually than cetaceans. However, we have opposable thumbs and have been able to set up shop (construct a material civilsation) and leverage our intelligence whilst theirs is arguable more the social and individual constructs and artifacts, hence more ethereal and intangible.

In a sense, we could relate this to the Native American tribes with a very simple material culture and a hugely rich spiritual and social culture, having given Ben Franklin the concrete example of representative democracy (I believe he sat with the Iroquois) which became, along with English common law, the foundations of modern democracy.

So compare the Native Americans with the pilgrims and early settlers of your land...who were materially much richer (though not accustomed to the land initially, LOL...but anyway) -- but can we say they were more intelligent simply because they had books and wood houses and guns?

You might say, ok but they were all humans. Alright, perhaps, but humanity have argued loads of racist stuff for ages about how the capacity for intelligence in homo sapiens is not evenly spread, LOL. Which most now realise is abject nonsense but which was nonetheless entertained throughout history. Likewise, I think we are a bit species-ist here, hahaha

Moving on...I think you are largely right on your order.
Agree that large birds and birds of prey are quite intelligent and smarter than dogs...though they all possess emotional intelligence, 'cept birds are much more like cats, emotionally...meaning, you need to earn their respect and maintain it. TBH I do think that is a clear sign of intelligence. Though dogs, being malleable, have the capacity to advance in future as well. But even insects have intelligence...and once again, the larger ones, the predators and the scavengers are actually fairly intelligent, if sometimes disgusting.

However, I'm convinced cetaceans are self-aware, quite similar to humanity and arguably having more advanced social structures and social cohesion in the main. Higher primates and elephants have also given indications of some level of self-awareness, such as recognising their image in a mirror. In fact many mammals and perhaps odd others like octopi have some degree of self-awareness...the extent to which is still under research and revision AND which probably will continue to evolve. Large birds of prey as well. God help us if the cold-blooded creatures become extensively self-aware too

Peace & blessings
7L

[r6r6]

[quote=7luminaries] .... Meaning lower level of complexity and certainly not intending a lower level of anything else, like worth or value. Good clarification on your part and thanks for that. ....

So...interesting, that. I don't agree we are more advanced spiritually than cetaceans.

To be clear, I never made any spiritual statements regarding humans vs animals. Not sure youve gone off on that.


Except in our access to Spirit-1, metaphysical-1 and Ive been very clear on that for two years or more here at SF.

However, I'm convinced cetaceans are self-aware, quite similar to humanity and arguably having more advanced social structures and social cohesion in the main.

At least one person observing dolphins/porposise closely believes he has recorded evidence of them having individual names for each of their progeny and that is something no other animal is known to do.


Again, Fuller believes cetacceans evolved from humans, not the other way around. He believes same or primates evolving from humans not the other way around .


These latter two above get into a much more complicated set of scenarios that can also involve various panspermia types of genetic material arriving to Earth at differrent times over the last 4.5 billion years

Peace & blessings

I agree with that, oh great one