Observer vs Observed

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

JASG, your patience,passion n perseverance is amazing. you have put lot of effort in giving coherent consistent n logical explanation of duality /non-duality. you also gave lot of illustration.

All this is extremely appreciated n applauded.

Yet, his passion and perseverance for ignorance is amazing. He ignores and thus will not answer a simple question of who or what started to believe in the duality/non-duality mental concept in the first place, if it was not the ego-I or intellect, so he is able to ignorantly talk against his and other people's ego-I or intellect while he uses his ego-I or intellect. Sure, he is consistent, but I would not say he is logical.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yet, his passion and perseverance for ignorance is amazing. He ignores and thus will not answer a simple question of who or what started to believe in the duality/non-duality mental concept in the first place, if it was not the ego-I or intellect, so he is able to ignorantly talk against his and other people's ego-I or intellect while he uses his ego-I or intellect. Sure, he is consistent, but I would not say he is logical.

I did acknowledge it begins with mind and intellect, but it's only a beginning.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Ultimately it's not about belief. That's a thing of mind. Of ego self. That's a first step, so to speak. That's a preliminary product of knowledge and/or devotional practice. To inculcate the intellectual knowing to the point one says "I get it", however short of "I experience it", "I live it".

Eventually that has to be transcended, at least if one's following the path of non-dualism.

https://swamivivekanandaquotesgarden...ents_8298.html

"You find there the idea of oneness; but Christ also preached dualistic ideas to the people in order to give them something tangible to take hold of, to lead them up to the highest ideal. The same Prophet who preached, "Our Father which art in heaven", also preached, "I and my Father are one", and the same Prophet knew that through the "Father in heaven" lies the way to the "I and my Father are one"."

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yet, his passion and perseverance for ignorance is amazing. He ignores and thus will not answer a simple question of who or what started to believe in the duality/non-duality mental concept in the first place, if it was not the ego-I or intellect, so he is able to ignorantly talk against his and other people's ego-I or intellect while he uses his ego-I or intellect. Sure, he is consistent, but I would not say he is logical.

I believe JASG has appreciated your efforts and passion for objective truth and in the same spirit I too appreciate all your efforts in the direction objective truth . At many levels we really don't have any real difference also.

Now let's not stretch it much further as people may get bored having to read same thing again and again. Nobody here is any judge . And all we may have is some opinions which may at times be more right n relevant and at times be more fallacious and out of context.

Let's recognize the life is vast and there is ample scope for learning and growth for all of us and move on .

With ample goodwill & regards for you and all, let's move on.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Myself also in IT , I can figure out why Jnana yog is more appealing to u and even me bcos IT guys are lazy to bones!!

Off to yog nidra

I did a quick Google on yoga nidra. Interesting! Does it put one in somewhat of the hypnagogic state?

"Yoga nidra or yogic sleep is a state of consciousness between waking and sleeping, like the "going-to-sleep" stage, typically induced by a guided meditation."

Some years back I engaged in practices for lucid dreaming with some small success. I joined the dreamviews forum and there are many different techniques to induce lucid dreaming, one of them being dream yoga. One of the members was very knowledgeable on the topic and actually setup online classes for members with registration, exercises, the whole spiel. I didn't take that particular approach but did read a lot of his content. very, very interesting!

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I did acknowledge it begins with mind and intellect, but it's only a beginning.



Eventually that has to be transcended, at least if one's following the path of non-dualism.

https://swamivivekanandaquotesgarden...ents_8298.html

"You find there the idea of oneness; but Christ also preached dualistic ideas to the people in order to give them something tangible to take hold of, to lead them up to the highest ideal. The same Prophet who preached, "Our Father which art in heaven", also preached, "I and my Father are one", and the same Prophet knew that through the "Father in heaven" lies the way to the "I and my Father are one"."

The point of non-duality teachings is to combine the metaphor/analogy mental concept of duality together with the metaphor/analogy mental concept of non-duality, not to view duality as unreal or as an illusion, viewing duality as unreal or as an illusion is a mental metaphor/analogy concept that creates it as an illusion and creates ignorance. I get that duality is maya and as an illusion as an analogy and/or metaphor mental concept to get people who have major attachments, not to have thier major attachments anymore, duality is not unreal or an illusion literally, duality is a metaphor/analogy for what is real, and non-duality also is a metaphor/analogy for what is real. If a physical brick falls on your head, the brick falling on your head is what is real, The brick falling on your head is not an analogy and/or metaphor mental concept.

My point has always been that the duality and non-duality metaphor/analogy concept will always remain a mental metaphor/analogy concept to your ego-I/mind or intellect until you combine, not divide and seperate the mental metaphor/analogy concept of non-duality together with the mental metaphor/analogy concept of duality to make absolute or ultimate reality whole, complete, concrete and real.

Combining the metaphor/analogy mental concept of duality together with the metaphor/analogy mental concept of non-duality, is truth and makes the metaphor/analogy mental concept of duality and the metaphor/analogy mental concept of non-duality, not metaphors/analogies any more, thus makes absolute or ultimate reality whole, complete, concrete and real, instead of a subjective mental metaphor/analogy concepts hence, the quote "All we see with our mind and senses is Brahman, but we are not recognizing it as Brahman, And this is maya, ignorance, the cause of all suffering" You not combining duality with non-duality, by you dividing and seperating the mental metaphor/analogy concept of non-duality away from the mental metaphor/analogy concept of duality, makes the metaphor/analogy concept of duality, unreal/maya/an illusion to you, because it is all a subjective mental metaphor/analogy concept.

I can not stress it enough that duality and non-duality will always remain a metaphor/analogy mental concept or belief to your ego-I/mind or intellect and play ego metaphor/analogy mental games with yourself, until you combine, not divide and seperate the metaphor/analogy mental concept of non-duality together with the metaphor/analogy mental concept of duality to make absolute or ultimate reality whole, concrete, complete, and real.

It is all about truth, which is being balanced and truthfull by combining the metaphor/analogy concept of non-duality together with the metaphor/analogy mental concept of duality vs what is not the truth and thus being untruthfull, which includes being unbalanced by not combining the metaphor/analogy mental concept of non-duality together with the metaphor/analogy mental concept of duality.

I did put you on my ignore list and I took you off my ignore list to send you this response and to see how you respond to the above response.

Edit: All metaphors and analogies are subjective/not literal/not real and causes confusion, conflict. and ignorance and are based upon personal beliefs, feelings and ect. The objective, is literal and real and simply see's metaphors and analogies for what they really are and do not use metaphors and analogies to prevent confusion, conflicts and ignorance.

Experiences based on metaphors and analogies are not real/truthfull. Experiences that are not based on metaphors and analogies are real/truthfull.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

JASG, your patience,passion n perseverance is amazing. you have put lot of effort in giving coherent consistent n logical explanation of duality /non-duality. you also gave lot of illustration.

All this is extremely appreciated n applauded.

Ditto, JASG.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Of course I'm deluded. I realize this. LOL!

I imagine it's just like a NDE. The experiences are on a continuum, from shallow to deep, and interpretation shaded by mind. And just like one who experiences an NDE will say they can't put it in words, neither can I. Anything I say about it is woefully lacking and doesn't do it justice.

What I can say and believe is true is that deep inner experience of Self, sans any interpretation from the illumined mind, is exactly the same for everyone because it is One. The non-dual experience of Awareness, if you will, pure and unsullied.

So no, I'm not saying I know what it's like to be Brahman, just that I know I am That. How can one (the small ego self) truly know the Unknowable?

I think, feel and believe that the 'best' (any)one can 'do' is to honestly/genuinely/imaginatively project what a fully 'Brahmanized' soul would (might?) think, feel and believe if s/he were 'in your shoes' (so to speak) and then, 'i'dentifying with such projection, speak and act accordingly.

From my treatise:

Souls ‘graduate’ from Earthly-life’s ‘school’ when their reincarnational learning and development ‘curriculum’ has thus been completed. Having realized their Cosmic ‘I’dentity (termed ‘Christhood’ by some and spoken of as [every]one’s ‘Buddha Nature’ by others) to be The Spirit of Life Itself, such souls operationally function as full-fledged colleagues of what Jesus referenced as ‘the Father’ from then on. (Those who have grasped the fact that the pronouns I and me as used in Jesus’ statements actually reference The Entity (i.e., the entirety) of Life’s Flow – Why? Because, as elucidated in Chapter 1, he [Jesus] personally completely ‘i’dentified with It! –who now also grok the fact that the above-described reincarnational learning-and‑development-leading-to-graduation process is what ‘leads’ to such collegial recombination, will have no trouble recognizing that it is said all‑encompassing Flow-phenom, and not himself personally, that Jesus was referencing when he emphatically declared: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me!” - John 14:6.)

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I did a quick Google on yoga nidra. Interesting! Does it put one in somewhat of the hypnagogic state?

"Yoga nidra or yogic sleep is a state of consciousness between waking and sleeping, like the "going-to-sleep" stage, typically induced by a guided meditation."

Some years back I engaged in practices for lucid dreaming with some small success. I joined the dreamviews forum and there are many different techniques to induce lucid dreaming, one of them being dream yoga. One of the members was very knowledgeable on the topic and actually setup online classes for members with registration, exercises, the whole spiel. I didn't take that particular approach but did read a lot of his content. very, very interesting!

Nothing special about it (Yog nidra) . I just used a slang meant to sleep normally after day long work . Yes in literal sense it has more meaning as you have found out on net like resting with yogic mediation / mindful awareness.

Careful with the kudos lest my imagined head and ego inflate to unimaginable proportions. LOL!

On a serious note...

I've been mixing Karma Yoga practice into my daily routine for several weeks and I can feel the fruit in the tenor of being. Even if it's nothing to do with the spiritual but merely the psychological that still speaks to the efficacy of these practices.

Same goes for Raja Yoga. Over the last decade I've gone on and off practice at least half a dozen times. The difference in being is palpable and even when I was practicing only mindfulness and just for secular reasons.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Nothing special about it (Yog nidra) . I just used a slang meant to sleep normally after day long work . Yes in literal sense it has more meaning as you have found out on net like resting with yogic mediation / mindful awareness.

Ah, I took it literally.

Regardless, the hypnagogic state is interesting. When falling off to sleep and getting the sensation of falling, becoming wide awake with a flinching and startled reaction!

Sitting in a meeting at work and just after lunch, having trouble staying awake, getting the nods where one isn't quite sleeping but not quite waking either.