Ego/I/self/Ahamkara is the Self that thinks he/she is separate from oneness....

Originally Posted by alanantic

"God sleeps in the rocks, stirs in the plants, dreams in the animals, and finally awakens in man." -- Vedic Quote

And quantum mechanics would have an all but identical tale to tell.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It's been said that religion is for those that are afraid to go to hell and Spirituality is for those that have been there

Must have been said by those having experience of hell without going to religion / spirituality . Those with true religion/spirituality reallydont know what the hell is as they have any experience of it

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Those processes all need a high degree of honesty before they can be properly addressed so even if a person is going through the process they might be pushed back down again because the person doesn't want to admit to their own flaws. Calling oneself a 'Spiritual being' can be a reason for detachment, which can be a personality aberration because people can think they are above normal people and certain things don't apply to them any more. That's when Spirituality is no longer Spirituality but a mental health issue. All of those those 'creates' the ego/Ahamkara and unconsciously alters a persons' Spirituality.

Indeed honesty is critical all -defining component of spirituality .

The moment people think they are above normal they have an ego which creates a wall with others and that is not real spiritual . I understand
& recognize your observations as practical real life day to day examples. And I too agree with it that such things happen in real life . My only contention is that there is not strong spiritual background to it.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

A person is a person first and foremost but there's a fine line between being Spiritual and schizophrenic, and it's only an act of nature which is way beyond out control that makes the difference. And sometimes the conscious choices we make are not 'ours' per se. There's a fine line between being a Spiritual being and having a personality issue, and if someone uses the term to describe themselves how Spiritual and self aware are they really?

Such person at best is student of spirituality and NOT necessarily spiritual person

Originally Posted by Greenslade

"Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simple a way of life, pure and original as was given by the most high. Spirituality is a network linking us to the most high, the universe and each other."
Haile Selassie

Great age old timeless universal wisdom everyone should respect .

Originally Posted by Greenslade

This is where Spirituality and general mental health 'meet'. We all have incarnated into this world, we are all Spirits blah-de-blah so how can Spirit not have a Spiritual experience? If we are Atman and therefore Brahman/Brahma why do we need the 'Spiritual' prefix to make us feel better about who/what we are? Did we not Love ourselves enough to give ourselves this experience?

Again here the understanding that 'spiritual' is mere adjective to make one feel better may not always be true . And in making such common-place remark we ignore the real substance 'spirituality' is .

Spirituality or Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy which is the study of existence, causation, God, logic, forms and other abstract objects ("meta ta physika" in Greek literature : "After the Physics" or "Beyond physics"). In Hindu scriptures the word is आध्यात्मिक = 'Aadhi' (meaning relating to ') + 'Atmiik' (meaning spirit, soul, intellect, God etc which are abstract) = 'Aadhyatmik'.

Spirituality tries to get something abstract beyond the obvious , behind the seemingly visible, beyond the horizon , underneath a phenomenon . So in essence it is a study of essentials / crux / inseparables and it's scope simply extend every sphere of human activity. And if u see any human activity in science/technology /business/trade /politics /economics / anthropology /psychology against this 'study of essentials ' , it has never succeeded and will never succeed . So if u wish your interests in psychology to bear meaningful fruits , it may be a good time to have fresh perspective on spirituality .

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

We are in a consciousness loop with the Universe and having consciousness isn't anything special really, because even an atom has/is consciousness. What differentiates us what what we are conscious of, and how that manifests.

Yep, people are conscious while their sub/unconscious programming/conditioning runs deep in the background and they are not conscious and aware of their sub/unconscious programming/conditioning. Their sub/unconscious programming/conditioning in fact, effects their awareness, which consciousness is conscious of.

How can the things that consciousness is conscious of be an illusion or not real, while we would not know those things exists, if consciousness was not conscious of them to begin with? Also how can anything that consciousness is conscious of, be the bad guy? This creates nothing more than a contradictory consciousness mental loop.

What really differentiates us from other animals and other conscious life forms is that we have the ability to be conscious and aware of the contents of our minds, other animals and other conscious life forms do not have that ability, they act on instincts that nature gave them. Perhaps this is what (human) free will and evolving in a spiritual context is all about.

The instincts animals have is a form of programming/conditioning, but animals are not able to change/go against their instincts like we humans are able too, by being conscious and aware of the negative, limiting and fear based contents of our minds.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yep, people are conscious while their sub/unconscious programming/conditioning runs deep in the background and they are not conscious and aware of their sub/unconscious programming/conditioning. Their sub/unconscious programming/conditioning in fact, effects their awareness, which consciousness is conscious of.

How can the things that consciousness is conscious of be an illusion or not real, while we would not know those things exists, if consciousness was not conscious of them to begin with? ...

The unconscious takes care of the internal reality while the ego interfaces with the external reality, and the two of them are in a symbiotic relationship. The unconscious framework is fundamental to the ego and its 'contents', which then 'filter' external reality and 'feed that back' to the unconscious. The unconscious then processes it, rinse and repeat.

The Limbic system is the so-called 'lizard brain' and its main function is survival. we are also programmed to be attracted to that which would help our survival or run away from what would be detrimental to it. One of the ways that happens is by the release of hormones into the brain to give us 'good feelings'. Cognitive dissonance happens when we receive information that is counter to what we hold to be our reality, the new information can cause interference patterns in our brains in the metaphor of ripples in a pond that interfere with each other. That might not help survival too much, hormones are released into the brain and we decide (actually, it's the unconscious that decides for us) that it's not real, it's a dream and therefore is negated or put into a hierarchy. Binary-powered brains are not equipped to deal with paradoxes or what is contrary to its reality.

And of course we need a bad guy, we need a scapegoat so that we can detach from being human and consolidate the Spiritual Being. Having a dissociative personality is very useful for self-awareness. The ego gets the job of being the bad guy.

Self awareness is the mainstay of Spirituality but how many people in this forum are aware of the unconscious processes that provide the frameworks for their Spirituality? Most don't realise that beliefs are the end result of the programming they choose to not become conscious of, and few will be Spiritual enough to listen to Buddha and question them. It's not just the contents of the mind but the 'source' of those contents that really matter. Because thinking you have gone past the programming is programming in itself.

But what is a Spiritual context? What is Spiritual or not has been decided by the unconscious processes and really, if we are Brahman and therefore Atman then is there a part of Atman that is non-Spiritual? Or is that another contradictory consciousness mental loop? Doesn't Brahman and therefore Atman not experience those limiting and fear-based contents?

Animals don't have these contradictions and I don't know if they have beliefs. Perhaps simply existing is more Spiritual than being Spirit on a human Journey. Spirituality seems to think it is.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The unconscious takes care of the internal reality while the ego interfaces with the external reality, and the two of them are in a symbiotic relationship. The unconscious framework is fundamental to the ego and its 'contents', which then 'filter' external reality and 'feed that back' to the unconscious. The unconscious then processes it, rinse and repeat.
The Limbic system is the so-called 'lizard brain' and its main function is survival. we are also programmed to be attracted to that which would help our survival or run away from what would be detrimental to it....

Yes, a person's unconscious creates his/her perceptions of his/her external reality. Perception is based purely on memory and thoughts of/about the past and future, while consciousness and awareness takes place in the present moment. Spirituality is not about the spiritual/non thinking vs the physical/thinking (which some people will say is the non-spiritual and includes the ego, mind and body). Spirituality is more about a person creating with his/her false/negative beliefs of his/her future and thinking about the future, which creates false perceptions vs a person creating with consciousness and awareness based thoughts in the present moment. A person's inner reality, beliefs etc etc creates that person's perceptions of spirituality and of the external physical reality.

Just so you know, I meant spiritual in a oneness/wholeness context, I did not mean spiritual in a general context.

The combination of perception together with consciousness and awareness is what creates the law of attraction/synchronicity, whether the perception, consciousness and awareness are balanced, and aligned with truth/brahman/the present moment or not. All traditions, spiritual paths, and the beliefs people have in their memory are based on the past, they are not based on the present moment.

The present moment will negate, null and void memories and beliefs of the past. The present moment triggers the stress of cognitive dissonance, but instead of the stress bringing a person closer to the present moment, the stress causes said person to ignore and/or dismiss the present moment, and the said person to believe what he/she wants to believe and/or what comforts and relieves his/her cognitive dissonance stress, I have been there and done that.

A person whom turns the mind, body, ego and the physical into the bad guy gives him/her a way to comfort and relieve his/her cognitive dissonance stress, thus is exactly the ego, and does not work in the end, just like using consciousness as an excuse to ignore and dismiss what consciousness is consicous of does not work.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, a person's unconscious creates his/her perceptions of his/her external reality. Perception is based purely on memory and thoughts of/about the past and future, while consciousness and awareness takes place in the present moment. Spirituality is not about the spiritual/non thinking vs the physical/thinking (which some people will say is the non-spiritual and includes the ego, mind and body). Spirituality is more about a person creating with his/her false/negative beliefs of his/her future and thinking about the future, which creates false perceptions vs a person creating with consciousness and awareness based thoughts in the present moment....

What we remember most is not the actual event itself but the emotional response, and sometimes the memory of the emotional response can remain long after any memory of what caused it. Sometimes remembering the event will cause a 'cascade' of associations with the event itself but the feelings are what are in the 'foreground'. Emotions that are not dealt with directly - and as importantly the root causes of an emotional response - are pushed into the Shadow Self, which includes suppressing them.

The unconscious processes any reactions/responses we have to both internal and external events and as a Spanish psychologist described it, the process involves a 'committee' of unconscious aspects, the members of which depends on what is being processed at the time. Two of the main protagonists are cognitive behaviour and cognitive dissonance, which I've mentioned before in relation to the unconscious. Destructive/negative cognitive behaviour is behaviour which does not assist in the process of coming to a successful outcome, as in one that is beneficial to one's well-being. Trying to think positive when everything you feel is pretty 'negative' is not constructive cognitive behaviour, nor are guilt complexes for instance or assigning blame. Cognitive dissonance happens when information is received that is contradictory to established beliefs and brain patterns and often results in an inability to process. Someone might not believe this has happened to them.

Also part of that from an historical context is the Shadow Self, and sometimes undealt-with emotions can well up from the Shadow Self and further impact the emotional response the person is having at that time. That too can 'colour' perceptions. Self esteem and how we perceive ourselves also have a 'seat on the committee' ands those can affect how we perceive ourselves, and relative to that is is how we perceive the wider reality. And yes, beliefs too if the person holds them. All of those and more contribute to our "Sense of I am," which is the ego that 'filters' our reality. The ego and the unconscious are in a symbiotic relationship with each other. The unconscious with all of its 'contents' is the framework for the "Sense of I am" or ego and the ego is the 'gateway' to our internal reality.

Spiritual wholeness seems to be very different from psychological wholeness, Spiritual wholeness seems to be more about agenda and projection of an imagined persona than anything else.

We are in a consciousness loop with the Universe and the Universe doesn't discriminate as to what is Spiritual or not, or what is good for us or not or what is truth or not. That is the differentiated consciousness of the ego. And if Atman is everything and we are Brahman and therefore Atman, what is not aligned with truth or Atman? Contradictory statements are the statements of destructive cognitive behaviour.

Regardless, we have a perception of linear time and perception is reality. We can sit here and go through all the ideologies and theologies that says there is no time and understand them completely, yet we know full well that time passes. And no, the present moment doesn't negate memories of the past because we carry them with us regardless - they're helping to 'colour' our perceptions right here, right now. They are a part of who and what you perceive yourself to be and without them, you wouldn't be 'you'.

The person that turns the mind, body and ego into the bad guy has a dissociative personality and doesn't like themselves very much, and has an unbalanced ego. Instead some project a persona and identify with that instead because it's more favourable than the truth of who and what they are.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

What we remember most is not the actual event itself but the emotional response, and sometimes the memory of the emotional response can remain long after any memory of what caused it. Sometimes remembering the event will cause a 'cascade' of associations with the event itself but the feelings are what are in the 'foreground'. Emotions that are not dealt with directly - and as importantly the root causes of an emotional response - are pushed into the Shadow Self, which includes suppressing them. ....

Fear, hate, negativity and limiting thinking and beliefs that limit atman, oneness/wholeness is not aligned with truth or Atman.

Sure, we do observe and perceive time outside of ourselves, but why dwell on it and think about it in a negative, indifferent and/or limiting kind of way? Why not just observe what is out there just for what it is, such as time without attaching any thought to it. Ideologies and theologies are not needed.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Fear, hate, negativity and limiting thinking and beliefs that limit atman, oneness/wholeness is not aligned with truth or Atman.

Sure, we do observe and perceive time outside of ourselves, but why dwell on it and think about it in a negative, indifferent and/or limiting kind of way? Why not just observe what is out there just for what it is, such as time without attaching any thought to it. Ideologies and theologies are not needed.

Truth is relative to one's own agenda and since we are Atman and therefore Brahman and Brahman is everything, aren't fear, hate and negativity and limiting beliefs Atman and therefore Brahman?

Or is there some understanding beyond what is aligned with truth or Atman and what is not?

If it is then it has its own Isness, everything else is what we create and manifest.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Truth is relative to one's own agenda and since we are Atman and therefore Brahman and Brahman is everything, aren't fear, hate and negativity and limiting beliefs Atman and therefore Brahman?

Or is there some understanding beyond what is aligned with truth or Atman and what is not?

If it is then it has its own Isness, everything else is what we create and manifest.

Yes fear, hate and negativity and limiting beliefs is Atman and therefore Brahman. However fear, hate and negativity and limiting beliefs is atman/brahman not being and becoming itself in a balanced in "It's" true unlimited nature kind of way. The Self/self is one and the same because underneath all the programming, conditioning etc etc one may have, there exists one's unchanging atman/brahman/self in it's true nature and form.

Atman/brahman/self does not change, thoughts and thinking is what changes and what we see amd perceive out there outside of ourselves in the physical universe is created by thought. Thoughts just exists as thoughts through the thinking process. Thought(s) changes atman's/brahman's/self's positive true nature into a negative/destructive nature. Thoughts and thinking is a good thing because thoughts create physical existence for Atman/brahman/self. Atman/brahman/self thinks and is therefore I AM (exists). Brahman is conscious of itself in physical form through the I AM/atman.

Atman's/brahman's true nature is positive, not limited and unconditional love (by unconditional love I mean a balanced freindlyness that does not have any condition attached to it, conditioned, sensualized and romanticized love has some form of mental and/or emotional condition attached to them.)

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes fear, hate and negativity and limiting beliefs is Atman and therefore Brahman. However fear, hate and negativity and limiting beliefs is atman/brahman not being and becoming itself in a balanced in "It's" true unlimited nature kind of way. The Self/self is one and the same because underneath all the programming, conditioning etc etc one may have, there exists one's unchanging atman/brahman/self in it's true nature and form.

Can Atman/Brahman be anything other than itself?

Originally Posted by MikeS80

YAtman/brahman/self does not change, thoughts and thinking is what changes and what we see amd perceive out there outside of ourselves in the physical universe is created by thought. Thoughts just exists as thoughts through the thinking process. Thought(s) changes atman's/brahman's/self's positive true nature into a negative/destructive nature. Thoughts and thinking is a good thing because thoughts create physical existence for Atman/brahman/self. Atman/brahman/self thinks and is therefore I AM (exists). Brahman is conscious of itself in physical form through the I AM/atman.

The ego is the 'interface' between the external and internal 'worlds', and the ego is the 'end product' of a number of unconscious processes. Thoughts are also influenced by cognitive dissonance and cognitive behaviour, that's what 'drives' our thoughts.

Our sense of I am is the ego, which is the centre of the field of consciousness. The unconscious processes everything before the conscious is even aware of it, and if we're lucky some 90-120ms later we might just become aware of it. It's in that short timeframe that the perception of eternity comes.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

YAtman's/brahman's true nature is positive, not limited and unconditional love (by unconditional love I mean a balanced freindlyness that does not have any condition attached to it, conditioned, sensualized and romanticized love has some form of mental and/or emotional condition attached to them.)

The ego is differentiated consciousness so that is the source of what is Atman's/Brahman's true nature is or not. Since Brahman is everything can we actually grasp everything beyond the concept of it or are we really talking about what the mind projecting out in front of us? If we don't know enough about our own true nature how can we say we know about Atman's/Brahman's true nature? Because they are one and the same, after all.