Demonstration of existence after death:

While I think most people visiting this section of the forums believe that we endure after death, I've never come across a train of thought that demonstrates it. Faith, beliefs, and feelings in great numbers, yes, but not logic. The purpose of this post is to do just that. I apologize if the post is redundant or roundabout, I want to be exceptionally thorough, and this is a multi-step train of thought.

First of all, we all experience emotions, which are not physical. While there are chemicals in the brain that scientists can point to for various emotions, the experience of an emotion is not that of a chemical sloshing around in brain-goo. We feel sad, or happy, or afraid, so there must be more than just the physical going on here. And since we all have the capacity for emotions, it is both non-physical and universal. For the purposes of the demonstration, I'm going to term this non-physical, shared aspect of ourselves the spirit.

However, we are not carbon copies of one another. Our emotional experiences are unique. Emotions are both universal AND unique. Now, this is a contradiction, and the only way it's explainable is if there's another, distinct, non-physical aspect of ourselves that utilizes the capacities inherent in the spirit and allows us to experience our individual emotions. I'm going to call this the soul.

So, we have a shared non-physical aspect in the spirit, and our non-physical identity and uniqueness in the soul. The question then becomes whether the soul and spirit die along with the body. My answer is no on both counts. After someone dies, I continue to experience emotions, so the shared part of me that allows me to experience emotions, the spirit, does not suddenly cease to be on anyone's death, including my own.

That leaves the soul, our "I", which is the more challenging of the two to nail down and demonstrate that it endures beyond death because it's unique to each of us. However, it can be done by remembering that the root of the soul is in the spirit. The spirit-capacities allow the soul to flourish, completely independent of the body. The soul, or uniqueness, is in no way dependent on the body, shown in how if I get a heart transplant I suddenly don't wake up with emotions of the donor, for example. The body, a physical thing, does not posses the capacity to support the soul on its own. Instead, the soul is dependent on the spirit, and the spirit is eternal. Therefore, the soul must also endure beyond death.

In conclusion, both the soul, who we are, and the spirit, our universal capacities, continue to exist after death. So far, I've only used emotions as an example for consistency, but anything that we all posses the capacity for and is not physical can be attributed to the spirit, soul, or both, and thus we continue to exist as ourselves after we die.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Thrare

First of all, we all experience emotions, which are not physical. While there are chemicals in the brain that scientists can point to for various emotions, the experience of an emotion is not that of a chemical sloshing around in brain-goo. We feel sad, or happy, or afraid, so there must be more than just the physical going on here.

Your conclusion (underlined) doesn't follow from your premise. The rest of your argument hinges on your conclusion in this part being correct; however you are not using logic to deduce the conclusion.

I for one do not even know if it is logically possible to prove existence after death.

God bless.

[deztini3]

Even if this made any sense the logic would still not be valid since your conclusions come from nothing that involves empirical evidence..

We may never be able to prove if there is existance after death. I do know for a fact that there is an existance after death. I don't have anything anyone will be able to see nor touch, feel or smell but I have experience. I can hear, feel, communicate with those who have passed away. I cnt make them come to me they just show up so I dnt control where and when. Ima make the story short, one day I was transported spiritually to the enterance of the other side. I saw many people there. It seems like we don't lose any aspects of ourselves or we may just see what is familiar to us as we lived in our physical self. I know you may have heard it before but there was a big bright light and the enternal bliss felt was amazing. My friends grandfather told me I couldn't enter when I tried because it wasn't my time. I was then pushed into my body. I would say I was day dreaming. But my friend was there wit me when I just blanked out on her and when I came out she asked me where I went. She felt the sensations and she told me she felt me leave. Years later just a few weeks ago it happened again. I was pulled the same way. This time I didn't go because I was too afraid. But. Am upset cause I want the feeling back. All I know is that everything ever learned may not be completely correct. We know almost nothing. Its my opinion we grow those stanges reaching one level to another and once we figure it out it makes the transitions better and we advance. Those who don't may get stuck and that's how we get our hauntings. Those who move forward have the abilIity to move from one plane to another when they chose too. I believe the physical detaches from the soul and the soul continues on as our true self. They have transfered their emtions to me their thoughts like and dislikes. Someday I hope we get answers to answer all our questions. We all will disagree to agree but the only thing I learned that in order to find your way is to have an open mind to everything and not close door because that's how we will grow spiritually. Thanks. This just an opinion from my life experiences.

[GentleStrength]

One simple logic proof of existence after death is, "You exist, therefore you will ALWAYS exist".

Standard physics law of nothing being able to be created or destroyed, just transformed. Apparently the laws of physics mimic the laws of spirit!

Love and Light

"In conclusion, both the soul, who we are, and the spirit, our universal capacities, continue to exist after death. ......thus we continue to exist as ourselves after we die."

I didn't wade through your supporting argument but whether it was logical or not the above section of your conclusion is totally in accord with fundamental teachings of Modern Spiritualism.

Maybe right for the wrong reasons but no less right for all that.

I've been passing on a similar message for quite some time. Not quite 'as old as the hills' but certainly nothing new....

Originally Posted by GentleStrength

One simple logic proof of existence after death is, "You exist, therefore you will ALWAYS exist".

Standard physics law of nothing being able to be created or destroyed, just transformed. Apparently the laws of physics mimic the laws of spirit!

Love and Light

your body is transformed and broken down into basic elements to nurture a new generation of life.

[GentleStrength]

Originally Posted by Iskandar

your body is transformed and broken down into basic elements to nurture a new generation of life.

Exactly! And my consciousness expands out of physical reality back to a spiritual existence once again.

Love and Light

The question I have is this: Will the awareness that I seem to be or have, always be aware?

This is hard to put in words, so please bear with me.

Awareness itself seems to dependent, and thus is likely not permanent, irreducible, or autonomous in any way, as it's often purported to be. Awareness is contingent upon perspective. Perspective (not to be confused with opinion) is likewise dependent upon some form of individuation.

People often talk about "infinite awareness" or "cosmic consciousness" as though this is something that can be experienced. Infinite awareness is tantamount to no awareness at all because there would be nothing to be aware of. If awareness is spread out infinitely (an infinity of perspectives simultaneously) there is no contrast and no "movement", so to speak. In this state, awareness wouldn't be aware of anything, including itself. Awareness that is not aware of anything would be, in practice, the same that no awareness. This is essentially death. Nothingness. Awareness is dependent upon individuation to even generate a contrast between awareness itself and that of which it is aware. We can call this individuated perspective a point-of-awareness. This point-of-awareness is what you call "I". Unless awareness exists as a "point", individuated from all "objects of awareness", it cannot be aware (even of itself). Awareness can only be aware of itself through the process of being aware of objects of awareness. It if is not individuated then there are nothing to be aware of, if there is nothing to be aware of, awareness cannot even be aware of itself. It can only be aware of itself through the process of being aware of "objects of awareness." Thus, in a sense, the phenomenon of being aware of awareness is an emergent phenomenon, once again totally dependent upon the individuation of awareness and not an autonomously existing phenomenon.

What does this individuation of awareness entail? Well, here's where things get tricky. "Your" awareness is not "my" awareness. I am not aware of that which you are aware and you are not aware of that which I am aware . Your experience (i.e., the flow of "your" awareness) is not my experience and vice versa. I cannot experience "you". Your awareness could be completely extinguished and I would never be aware of/experience this. So clearly, we have distinct awarenesses or, to put it differently, we have distinct points-of-awareness. Your point-of-awareness is what you call yourself and mine is what I call myself.

To get back to the crux of the question: How do I know that "my" experience or point-of-awareness continues? I fully understand that awareness will have to be individuated for experience to continue but it doesn't necessarily mean that "I" will experience that next individuation, just as I'm not experiencing yours.

Now remember, when referring to this "I", I'm not alluding to my body, personality, preferences, world-view, etc but ONLY to that point-of-awareness which I seem to have or be.

There are really three possible scenarios as I see it:

1. Extinction/obliteration
2. Transference
3. Continuation

The extinction/obliteration of awareness at death would obviously result in the permanent and irrevocable end of experience/awareness.

If awareness does indeed continue on, there is no way of saying that I will continue to experience it, just as I'm not experiencing yours and your not experiencing mine. This awareness that I seem to be/have may transfer into someone else (not talking about personalities) and I would not experience it.
This would also mark the end of awareness/experience.

The first two scenarios are what is commonly thought of death- the eternal end awareness/experience.

The third scenario involves the continuation of this point-of-perception that I call "I". In this scenario, "my" point-of-awareness would continue and therefore my experience would continue. I would become a completely different being, but I would experience becoming that different being.

Now, if this awareness that I seem to be/have becomes temporarily absorbed into infinity/non-individuation (oneness) at death, there would inevitably be a corresponding suspension of awareness/experience. Of course, it would seem like no time elapsed from the perspective of a continued point-of-awareness. Time is only a convention the mind uses to "measure" change. To be aware of change, one must be aware of something changing. To be aware of something changing, awareness must be individuated so that the necessary relationship between awareness and that of which it is aware can operate. Thus, no time will elapse for non-individuated awareness even if billions of years went by from the perspective of individuated awareness.

But, the question remains in this scenario as well: would the point-of-awareness that emerged out of the "void" continue to be my experience or would it, like the experience that you are having, be something that I am not aware of? Would the awareness that I had/was disintegrate when immersed into the potential infinity of non-individuation and never reemerge? An eternally discontinued point-of-awareness? The end of your awareness for ever?

In terms of the third scenario (that of continuation) we also have to contend with memory dissolution. Even if "my" awareness will continue, will it be as though there is a continuation of experience? Will "my" awareness continue even through the seemingly inevitable process of memory dissolution. People that develop severe amnesia obviously still have experience and an intact sense of "I" although they have no story or history to go along with it, so this may be a possibility.

Originally Posted by LIFE

Will the awareness that I seem to be or have, always be aware?

The awareness that you seem to be is not always aware. Even during human life, before you die, it is not always aware. Individual conscious awareness of things comes and goes and constantly changes.

Awareness is contingent upon perspective.

That's why it always changes. One minute you're annoyed by the car alarm that's going off, the next you spill coffee on yourself and though the car alarm is still going off it is no longer in your conscious awareness's focus because all your focus is on the pain in your skin. One minute you're falling through the air to your death, the next you see a pink unicorn flying next to you and realize it is a dream, or you wake up and realize it was a dream. Throughout all of this, there seems to be a continuation of consciousness. The person you wake up as every morning seems to be a continuation of the same consciousness you had the day before. This continuation of consciousness during life is possible because it is not dependent upon maintaining the same perspective or awareness. This is what could continue after physical death.

Perspective (not to be confused with opinion) is likewise dependent upon some form of individuation.

We perceive having an individual, separate consciousness, but some come to realize that this separateness is an illusion. It is possible to be aware on some level to some extent that this perception of separateness is an illusion of the ego while still perceiving the illusion it as we go through our daily lives. It is also possible to see from the perspective of not being separate.

People often talk about "infinite awareness" or "cosmic consciousness" as though this is something that can be experienced.

It can be. Some have experienced this. This is the perspective of not being separate. During that experience it becomes apparent to the experiencer that individuation is an illusion. We are not really separate. It just seems that way because of the way the ego works.

Awareness is dependent upon individuation to even generate a contrast between awareness itself and that of which it is aware.

People are able to be aware of being themselves without dissociating. This conscious awareness of being conscious awareness is the opposite of dissociating. Contrast is not necessary, and is just an illusion. It is possible to be consciously aware of being one with the consciousness of the universe. This is what we are. We’re just not always aware of it because of the illusions of the ego. Some have done this and retain some of that awareness that separateness is an illusion even while they perceive the illusion. If a consciousness could not be aware of being itself while being itself (not separate from itself) no one would experience consciousness. Because that is what consciousness is. Consciousness means there is something that it is like to be the entity in question.