Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners.

IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.

If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.

These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jew and a Rabbi.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, and Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.

Regards
DL

[theophilus]

Jesus was the only innocent person who ever lived. He chose to bear the punishment we deserve because that is the only way we can be forgiven. The Bible verses you quoted show that it is impossible for someone who is a sinner to atone for another's sin because he has sins of his own that he must pay for.

Jesus was not just human but was also God. Because of his humanity and his innocence his death could be accepted as a substitute for our sins. Because he was also God his death was enough to atone for the sins of all of us.

Originally Posted by theophilus

Jesus was the only innocent person who ever lived. He chose to bear the punishment we deserve because that is the only way we can be forgiven. The Bible verses you quoted show that it is impossible for someone who is a sinner to atone for another's sin because he has sins of his own that he must pay for.

Jesus was not just human but was also God. Because of his humanity and his innocence his death could be accepted as a substitute for our sins. Because he was also God his death was enough to atone for the sins of all of us.

So god can die. Interesting.

It it really a sacrifice if the sacrifice does not stay dead, or is it a lie?

You say god had no other way. Why are you restricting god and where in scriptures does it say he cannot forgive us without having his own child murdered?

Regards
DL

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by Soul Seeker

So god can die. Interesting.

It it really a sacrifice if the sacrifice does not stay dead, or is it a lie?

You say god had no other way. Why are you restricting god and where in scriptures does it say he cannot forgive us without having his own child murdered?

Regards
DL

God is just and his justice will not allow him to overlook sin. To simply forgive without taking care of the sin in some way would be to condone sin. By providing a sacrifice to atone for sin, God could forgive the sinner without compromising his justice.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:21-26 ESV

Originally Posted by theophilus

God is just and his justice will not allow him to overlook sin. To simply forgive without taking care of the sin in some way would be to condone sin. By providing a sacrifice to atone for sin, God could forgive the sinner without compromising his justice.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:21-26 ESV

We are all children of god. The same god you are restricting to the evil ways you would practice, it seems.

Would you sacrifice your child or yourself if you decided a sacrifice was required?

What is the best natural and moral choice?

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by theophilus

the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[/b][/i]
Romans 3:21-26 ESV

Why wright this when you know that no one had had faith or belief in Jesus from the beginning of Christianity?

Who have you seen do all he can do and more, as scriptures say believers or those of faith can do?

Regards
DL

[foundation123]

No.

Here is my take.

There is no punishment for punishment sake.

On Repentance, there is immediate forgiveness. No punishment for past sins. No Repentance, no forgiveness.

Jesus did not take punishment instead of us. Not a scape goat, nor a needy God to satisfy. He hung there to show us the way and that His talk was not mere talk. The blood was shed to show us the way of selflessness and up to laying down one's life, no matter how gruesome. It was shed to show the way. Not shedding for shedding sake.

The faith that we talk of us is an evil faith. Real Faith on Him would lead to immediate Repentance and their lies the salvation. Faith without works is not just dead, it is a lie, an evil.

One of the places Apostle Paul messed up by speculating and trying to draw parallels between old covenant and new.

That is why we have only One Teacher and none other. There is no other Authority other than Him, and we discuss and more than that that contemplate reaching into our inner minds and heart for their lies the connection to Him, direct and personal.

[ThatMan]

The thing is that most people do not understand that when we do something bad, our action is like a wave that not only affects us but it also affects many other.

It is the same thing for when we do something good, we can see reflections everywhere around us in the people we know but it can also go even beyond our close ones, it's a wave into the eternal.

So when you do something bad, you not only do it to yourself, you do it to the whole world and ultimately against the very One who made all things.

Open the door to someone and you'll make that person's day a lot more better, be rude with someone and you'll add one more brick on the weight carried by that person on his/her own shoulders, this small brick can be the brick that could lead to many other bricks added on the shoulders of many other people.

Are you able to atone for all the "negative" waves you have sent into the world? This waves go into eternity. I know that I am not, the damage is done, no matter how much good you do to replace the bad, you can never replace the bad, it will always be part of history and ultimately, you have to pay for what you have done because it was you who started the fire.

This is a universal law, it's not that God said one day, let's start punishing people for their bad deeds, this has always been and it will always be, it's the nature of the One who made all things and only the One who made all things has the power to pay this debt, this is what Christ has done, He has become human so that we can become like Him.

More than 2000 thousands years have passed from the moment Christ walked the Earth and look, the waves of His actions are still flowing all over the Earth, you see, it goes on and and on into eternity...

[Morpheus]

Leviticus chapter 16 is where the word "Scapegoat"comes from.
(But you left that out.)

As well, the first video you posted is about the last judgement on the Egyptians, which were enacted when they would not liberate the Jews.

You do not know your Bible. You think you do.
"Disaffected", S.S.

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Leviticus chapter 16 is where the word "Scapegoat"comes from.
(But you left that out.)

As well, the first video you posted is about the last judgement on the Egyptians, which were enacted when they would not liberate the Jews.

You do not know your Bible. You think you do.
"Disaffected", S.S.

What vid?

Are you talking of where Pharaoh's heart was soft and he was to let the Jews go, until Yahweh hardened his heart and changed his mind?

If so, that shows your god as quite the murderous prick. No?

You have left a lot out yourself, but such cheap gratuitous insult is to be expected from the religious.

Regards
DL