Non-duality as devotion or concentration

[winter light]

Typically I see non-duality is presented as something like the absence of self. Where nothingness is some kind of ideal state that one tries to attain. And discussion progresses to be impersonal and abstracted away from human existence. Or even expanded into some cosmic ideal state that could be reached in the distant future.

That perspective has never sat well with me. For reasons I don't really want to dwell on. But I have noticed that every time I have tried to identify the problem it has been like sparring with a ghost. Always out of reach and two steps ahead.

Now I'm considering a completely different perspective of non-duality that occurred to me recently and seems to work. For me at least. Where the experience of non-duality is one where you are completely immersed in some devotion or concentration upon either the presence of another sentient being or to a worthwhile activity or cause.

I don't know of any significant examples of non-duality being presented in this way. I think it brings non-duality down to earth. Or to wherever else you may be. So that it can be experienced in any aspect of existence. That non-attainable image is replaced with any activity that can be done in the here and now. Becoming very personal and intimate with our deepest self.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by winter light

So that it can be experienced in any aspect of existence. That non-attainable image is replaced with any activity that can be done in the here and now. Becoming very personal and intimate with our deepest self.

It sits well in me, in what you’re sharing. I’m consistently aware it’s both transformative and integrative as a whole mind/body experience on this earth, living a normal life.

I’ve resided in higher faculties only to be shown in this way of myself, there was no where to go but back into the body and integrate.. the transformation process, took me to the highs, but the lived experience took me back into my body.

Most people I’ve related too as you’ve described as ghosts, often feel very ‘out of body’ not connected at the earth level of spiritual transformation. I’ve resided there myself..

Your only as in touch with the real world on this earth plane as deeply rooted you are on the earth.

Our foundations are the earths expression.

Our higher centres are recognition we are the universal expression.

They are not seperate embodiments..it’s your wholeness, your true state and expression encompassed.

[winter light]

Originally Posted by JustBe

... They are not seperate embodiments..it’s your wholeness, your true state and expression encompassed.

Yes this is a key to the way I am looking at it. To define our place in the experience in terms of wholeness. From there we offer ourselves to a moment. And a sublime sense of eternity emerges.

Initially I can only see from my own perspective in any of those moments.

What is required next is the ability to listen. Not meaning sound, but meaning listening completely to the essence of who or what is being related to. A deliberate intention to discover and know nature of the other. Though all presence is devoted to listening and then the result is we share by receiving the presence of the other.

This sort of connection cannot be described in terms of division or contrast. As it is common to break things into parts and then describe how they relate or cause effects in one another. Instead language of sharing and wholeness is more appropriate.

Because when these sort of events occur there is a very clear knowing of the other. I was tempted to say merging but that could not be a correct way to describe it. (Not usually anyhow, though I have experienced merging). There is still a sense of my own identity whole and complete and in addition there is sharing and knowing the other. That is closer to what I mean.

I liked the article, a refreshing perspective. Though he seems to be railing against the status quo and that can be problematic. And I differ with the author regarding sages and leaders in that I consider them to have a large responsibility that must be respected.

They don't need to be super-human perfect, but I expect a lot of integrity and good boundaries. And the wisdom to know their limits and act accordingly if the moment requires them to question their own role in the moment for the greater good. If I see that they cannot know their limits then I must distance myself from those aspects at least.

If I notice they really have some important virtue as a role model, despite everything else, I try to focus my attention on that and let go of their faults. From a safe distance. Even if they cannot be a hero they maybe can teach me something. Sometimes that something is for me to learn my own boundaries and when it is time to trust myself.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by winter light

Yes this is a key to the way I am looking at it. To define our place in the experience in terms of wholeness. From a safe distance. Even if they cannot be a hero they maybe can teach me something. Sometimes that something is for me to learn my own boundaries and when it is time to trust myself.

I can see where you’re coming from and I agree with your view of these things.

Listening for me is giving presence. Discernment in listening allows for me not to get dumped upon to the point I’m neglecting myself. So even as we might use the spiritual progress and transformation to live our life more connected, I think balance is important in taking care of ourselves. The more self care you can integrate, the more grounded and present you can be towards life.



I think merging is often a misinterpreted word. But when connection is deep and present with another, where openness resides, there is a unified shared space, where both can be open as they are. I’ve experienced this more consciously, but my balance within, wasn’t so clear and I was caught in fear…When you’re more grounded and present without fear of being you, with what is, the potential to let others shine and grow is a very natural occurrence. Simply by giving an unspoken permission to be and come as they are. I do this now. Humans often don’t realise we are all merging together in life all the time. Whether consciously or not. I think once you’re aware of this interplay, you can navigate yourself aware of you and what is important for you.

[winter light]

Originally Posted by JustBe

... we are all merging together in life all the time. Whether consciously or not.

I like how you referred to shared space and merging together all of the time. Each relationship is like this and those are within a greater shared space related with everyone else. This is a part of the concentration aspect. In a close moment it seems like everything else falls away but that is just appearance and it is temporary. The connections ebb and flow in waves of compression and release as we move our attention from one momentary relationship to the next.

And to some degree can be activated or sustained or repeated when done with awareness. We never have complete control but through our presence and intention we have influence in the unfolding of our shared destinies.

I'm grateful for all of the thoughtful replies on this topic from everyone.

[Starman]

In many ways, consciously or unconsciously, we live in each others dreams and fantasies. Most people prefer fantasy to reality, fantasies even to escape the reality of physical existence; even more so many prefer duality over non-duality. Nothing like being on a journey unaware that you are on a journey, and the journey is more dynamic and vivid then can be imagined in any of our fantasies. Maybe our fantasies are a reality somewhere else, or at least the impetus of physical dualistic reality with its drama; it often begins in our dreams and fantasies. “Be careful what you wish for.”

[Unseeking Seeker]

Let us investigate -

Here, in mind-body, as long as we operate from the fulcrum of a separate entity (us) disconnected from the all-that-is, we are in duality. There’s nothing wrong with this of course. The Self in singularity wishes to descend, that it may ascend and re-cognise itself.

On earth plane, two people in love, they become one for the time-dissolved moments their attention is held thus. Both are, in that continuum, in the heart, not in the head. So we may say, mind is in duality and heart in singularity. But there is oscillation. If we can remain heart-centric, in purity of being, acting spontaneously without fragmented thought, moment to moment, all moments entwined, then the doer, the ego, disappears, does it not? But if we engage in devotion or philanthropy as an activity for a feel-good factor, then we are as yet in lower mind.

Now, to be egoless, effectively we are a conduit through which divine (agape) love can express itself in this density. We speak of all embracing, unconditional love, an eternal effervescence, that has no opposite.

If this be so, in my view, we have then embodied the light of Self within this earth vessel.

[Starman]

I don’t see how it can be codified. Every time I think of a model or impetus of non-duality my model gets destroyed by some experience I am having. Yes, I concur, non-duality, and even the infinite, can be experienced right here right now. You do not have to wait until you die to see God or experience what many call “heaven.” It can be experienced right here right now.

Is non-duality abstract, in my opinion yes, is non-duality concrete and ordered, in my opinion yes. Non-duality is not one thing or the other, in my opinion, it is the foundation of duality, comprises and forms duality, and non-duality, in my opinion, creates and causes duality to exist. They are not separate items, one is a reflection of the other, although it may be a skewed reflection.

Non-duality can exist without duality but duality can not exist without non-duality. One literally is dependant on the other. One is temporary and the other is permanent, but one is not higher or greater than the other. In my opinion, we all come from non-duality and exist at this very moment, at our core, in non-duality. Just my perspective.

[JustBe]

But egoless does not mean less than personal, it means more than personal. Not personal minus, but personal plus all the normal personal qualities, plus some transpersonal ones. Think of the great yogis, saints and sages from Moses to Christ to Padmasambhava. They were not feeble-mannered milquetoasts, but fierce movers and shakers from bullwhips in the Temple to subduing entire countries. They rattled the world on its own terms, not in some pie-in-the-sky piety; many of them instigated massive social revolutions that have continued for thousands of years.

And they did so not because they avoided the physical, emotional and mental dimensions of humanness and the ego that is their vehicle, but because they engaged them with a drive and intensity that shook the world to its very foundations. No doubt, they were also plugged into the soul (deeper psychic) and spirit (formless Self) the ultimate source of their power but they expressed that power, and gave it concrete results, precisely because they dramatically engaged the lower dimensions through which that power could speak in terms that could be heard by all.https://www.lionsroar.com/egoless-means-more/

I like this view in this article

[Unseeking Seeker]

@ JustBe ~ going by the article you referred to, we are caught up in semantics of what ego is. Taking ego to be the mistaken belief that we are only mind-body, we are in delusion. If however we say our true being, the Self or soul, whatever we wish to call our eternal presence (soul is incorrect actually), is the fulcrum of our moment to moment awareness, then the body is instrumentalised. But how many of us are as such? We tend to oscillate. That’s ok but just saying, awareness of truth is not seamless.

As an illustration, how do we look at other forms? Outer appearance, intellect or the spirit in-dwelling it? What about gender, age, social status, colour etc.? Are we free from fetters? If not, we are in lower mind, ego-driven.

Until the ego is not subservient to our Self, we are in bondage. That’s my view.