Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spiritual Development

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-07-2024, 01:12 PM
AnotherBob AnotherBob is online now
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 325
 
Theories vs Realization Jurgen Ziewe

Theories and beliefs abound, realization of truth is rare.

From time to time I receive letters of people confused, who rely on the testimony of people widely thought of "In-the-Know" who promote theories of "Virtual Reality", "Holographic simulation of reality”, along with ETs and governments mind controlling us and feasting on our emotions as "loosh" in order to survive." Inevitable this leads many into a state of mental confusion and distress when subscribing to these neo-religious beliefs and indeed, it can be deeply confusing when we rely on the beliefs of other people who all differ in their individual and often unique opinions.

Some of the people, I know personally and I respect and although I am certain they had their own experience I am also certain that their conclusions are fabricated in their own minds. In order to come up with a theory, which cannot be substituted for reality, reality, which is simply unknowable. The human mind resorts to constructs which attempts to make the unknowable appear to be fact, but in truth it results only in a religious, psychological or philosophical construction and belief.

However, true knowledge is achieved when moving beyond the confines of the mind, which is incapable of realizing truth and in its inability of realizing truth, it resorts to the surrogate of a construct, a theory and a subjective belief.
The fact is that there can be no dissolution of consciousness, individual or otherwise. If you cannot imagine a nothing then you have already the proof that consciousness and your individual core of yourself (soul) persists. A theory which leaves you stranded, depressed and in a state of unhappiness only proves that it is a made-up theory and a sadly insufficient means to provide an answer, whereas realized reality is the bedrock of love, unity and in its incorruptible essence, bliss.

People who are unable to point this realization out to you, are simply providing evidence that they have not experienced the ultimate reality and as a consequence simply do not know and have to resort to a made-up theory, instead of surrendering to the incorruptible reality of eternal life and its inherent unconditional love and bliss.

~Jurgen Ziewe, July, 2024
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-07-2024, 04:38 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southwest, USA
Posts: 25,595
  Miss Hepburn's Avatar
HI Bob,The Ten Minute Moment - a book
by Jurgen Ziewe

''What happens when attention is focused on Attention for one week?
What does it feel like when you step over the very edge of human consciousness and
cross the great divide which separates individual identity from
a unified and cosmic sense of being?''


What is called attention here - I heard it called awareness...same thing, I guess.
First time I did this 2018...as an exercise: to focus my attention on pure awareness - I got a head ache!! LOL!
It is different than the decades of meditation I have done.

I am good at focusing or doing 'mental homework'...mindful discipline.
I will try a week. (I would suggest doing 2-5 minutes a day to start.)
................
Theories, speculation, philosophies, guessing, conceptualizing, intellectualizing, supposing vs Direct Experience would be like
looking at a kiwi for the first time and writing a paper on it without ever tasting it, imo.
Toss it out...the paper, its a waste of time!
It's looking at the puppy in the window having NO contact, imo.
__________________

.
*I'll text in Navy Blue when I'm speaking as a Mod. :)


Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru
.


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-07-2024, 01:21 PM
J_A_S_G J_A_S_G is offline
Knower
Join Date: Apr 2024
Posts: 186
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
What is called attention here - I heard it called awareness...same thing, I guess.
That depends. Usually in meditation we attend an object be it breath, sound, sensation, ideal, etc.. It's an intention to attend. Willful attention. To me attention seems more a function of mind.

https://deconstructingyourself.com/d...editation.html

This is the only way I know to rest in awareness. To bring awareness to awareness, minus mindful intention/intervention. Any intention to bring awareness to awareness is mind injecting itself into the equation. It's more like not attending anything and just noticing when intention arises and letting that go. It's a subtle but important distinction, attending vs. noticing.
__________________
JASG AKA JustASimpleGuy
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-07-2024, 02:01 PM
AnotherBob AnotherBob is online now
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 325
 
There are a number of good YouTubes on Awareness Watching Awareness, a very potent meditation practice. This is with Rupert Spira: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8tQYYNIg0&t=1743s
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-07-2024, 02:10 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southwest, USA
Posts: 25,595
  Miss Hepburn's Avatar
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_A_S_G
... It's more like not attending anything and just noticing when intention arises and letting that go.
It's a subtle but important distinction, attending vs. noticing.
What would I do without you?
__________________

.
*I'll text in Navy Blue when I'm speaking as a Mod. :)


Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by daily riding in the balloon of God-perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones, which at best is a nest of troubles.
Meditate unceasingly, that you may quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence, free from every form of misery. ~Paramahansa's Guru's Guru
.


Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-07-2024, 02:46 PM
J_A_S_G J_A_S_G is offline
Knower
Join Date: Apr 2024
Posts: 186
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
What would I do without you?
Or Shinzen Young. He coined "Do Nothing".

https://youtu.be/cZ6cdIaUZCA
__________________
JASG AKA JustASimpleGuy
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-07-2024, 02:57 PM
lemex lemex is online now
Master
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,143
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherBob
The fact is that there can be no dissolution of consciousness, individual or otherwise.
This is not clear and may not be correct as it's known that other consciousnesses exist. Examples of others, deities, angels, demons, spirits, etc, all are unique and exist. I do not include physical beings. We tend to view consciousness as only human (physical based) but what of non physical beings. But even human consciousnesses are spirit based.

So there is no dissolution of spirit consciousness or thought even in physical form and we remain connected in this way. Spirit consciousness remains where it is. There is infinite possibilities in infinity. What I have found there is no dissolution of spirit and we are talking about that which exists. From the time of birth Spirit did not dissolve and so one always remains connected. Here we may have to simply ask, because even spirits seem to agree they are separate. If spirits communicated their existence would that be theory then.

The fact is, the reason the mind can transcend is there is no dissolution or beginning of (spirit) consciousness. We will return to our spirit.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-07-2024, 08:53 PM
AnotherBob AnotherBob is online now
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 325
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemex
The fact is, the reason the mind can transcend is there is no dissolution or beginning of (spirit) consciousness. We will return to our spirit.

So he is saying that there is no dissolution of consciousness, and you are saying there is no dissolution of consciousness. I can see why this might be confusing. There is a difference between Spirit, Awareness, and Consciousness.

The Buddha made an eminently astute observation when he noted that what we are is the result of our thinking: “As ye think, so shall you be.” Indeed, it is consciousness — the power of thought-energy – which creates everything we take to be reality. Consciousness utilizes and inhabits form to express itself, and form in this sense also includes our bodies. Consequently, taking responsibility for our thoughts is a necessary step in our being able to function effectively in this realm.

One perennial obstacle in the consideration of consciousness, however, is that the terms “consciousness” and “awareness” are often used interchangeably, resulting in a lot of ensuing confusion and misunderstanding. Many a heated debate could be avoided if the two terms were used appropriately. Essentially, consciousness can be regarded as mind with objects, whereas awareness refers to mind without objects.

In our felt experience — given that everything which we can think, feel, or know is constantly changing, appearing and disappearing — clinging to and fixating on consciousness invariably creates a sense of dis-satisfaction, or stress. The ceaseless cycle of craving and aversion that characterizes the usual human activity consists of alternately grasping at objects of attention, or running away from them, and it is this very pattern which generates the conflicted experience of “me and mine”.

In various Buddhist texts, consciousness is designated as the fifth skandha, or aggregate. The five aggregates (form, sensation, perception, mental formations, and consciousness) together create the illusion of individual and independent personhood. Conversely, the recognition of their inherent emptiness is an indication of the dawn of awakening. Consequently, Buddha is often quoted in the literature depicting consciousness as stressful, transient, and not-self, in order to liberate the seeker from attachment to it. To illustrate, here is a bit of dialogue from the Anattalakkhana Sutta:

“How do you construe thus, monks — Is consciousness constant or inconstant?”

“Inconstant, lord.”

“And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?”

“Stressful, lord.”

“And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: ‘This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am’?”

“No, lord.”

“Thus, monks, any consciousness whatsoever — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness — is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: ‘This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am’. Seeing thus, the instructed Noble disciple grows disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is released.”

The non-dual sage Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj has been even more blunt, calling consciousness a “fraud and hallucination”, “an itching rash”, and comparing it metaphorically to “being stung by a scorpion”. He recommends that the aspirant diligently strive to understand consciousness directly through meditative inquiry, getting to know it inside and out, until it is summarily recognized as “useless and imperfect”, and then transcended. In his seminal text, the spiritual classic “I Am That”, he clarifies the difference between consciousness and awareness:

Q: You use the words ‘aware’ and ‘conscious’. Are they not the same?

M: Awareness is primordial; it is the original state, beginningless, endless, uncaused, unsupported, without parts, without change. Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality. There can be no consciousness without awareness, but there can be awareness without consciousness, as in deep sleep. Awareness is absolute, consciousness is relative to its content; consciousness is always of something. Consciousness is partial and changeful, awareness is total, changeless, calm and silent. And it is the common matrix of every experience.

Q: How does one go beyond consciousness into awareness?

M: Since it is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore the very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness takes you to awareness. It is not a new state. It is at once recognised as the original, basic existence, which is life itself, and also love and joy.

Moreover, in response to the materialists who claim that consciousness arises in the brain, Nisargadatta teaches:

“I am not my body, nor do I need it. I am the witness only. I have no shape of my own. You are so accustomed to think of yourself as bodies having consciousness that you just cannot imagine consciousness as having bodies. Once you realize that bodily existence is but a state of mind, a movement in consciousness, that the ocean of consciousness is infinite and eternal, and that, when in touch with consciousness, you are the witness only, you will be able to withdraw beyond consciousness altogether.”

In this perspective, consciousness might be considered the relative nature of mind, since it is transitory and dependent on conditions, whereas awareness would be regarded as a reflection of the absolute nature of mind, since it is the unchanging background. Whatever is subject to change has no enduring reality. Since consciousness is always moving, it cannot comprehend the motionless, so it falls into silence. Just so, by dis-engaging from identification with the stream of thought objects, a space is created for awareness to shine forth unobstructed. This is the purpose of meditation, releasing attention from the passing neural parade by being aware of being aware. In this way, attention can penetrate the surface layers where it typically resides and fall back into its source – the silent and aware, transparent and spacious essence of mind’s true nature.

Ramana Maharshi put it this way: “You are awareness. Awareness is another name for you. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is, of the not-self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains . . .”

Through repeated practice of detachment from “other things”, the power of the mind to abide in its source increases. Thus, the spiritual endeavor in its most fundamental form is a process of letting go, surrender. The sages are unanimous in their suggestion that we give up our obsessions with the past and future, our efforts at trying to force life into our idea of the way it should be, and simply relax into our natural state, which is peace.

In the beginning, there is effort involved, because the distracting power of our mental habits is strong, and the “monkey mind” will not willingly relinquish its throne, but with consistent practice, the effort becomes effortless, and a natural and relaxed spontaneity blossoms. We no longer need to mistake the body and its consciousness for who and what we are, because those errors in discernment and identification have been outshone by the clear recognition of our true nature — Awareness.

__/\__
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-07-2024, 11:42 PM
lemex lemex is online now
Master
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,143
 
Quote:
You are so accustomed to think of yourself as bodies having consciousness that you just cannot imagine consciousness as having bodies.
Did you mean we don't imagine consciousness as having no bodies. Of course we should such as spirits have separate consciousnesses.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-07-2024, 11:59 PM
AnotherBob AnotherBob is online now
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 325
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemex
Did you mean we don't imagine consciousness as having no bodies. Of course we should such as spirits have separate consciousnesses.

The materialist viewpoint posits that consciousness is a brain phenomena, whereas a more accurate view is that non-local consciousness utilizes the brain/body/self-complex to express itself in 3D.

__/\__
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums