[Uma]

Hi Prokopton,

Here are my responses:

Originally Posted by Prokopton

I also really think someone ought to point out:

1. That although there are many suggestive images, in many cases we don't have enough evidence to be certain that kundalini was meant. (Although in some we do.) -- I'm talking rigorously certain here. Greenwell gives the example of Jiyu Kennett Roshi, an enlightened Zen Meditator, as kundalini, but reading carefully the process is possibly rather different. We still need to know more, that is, if we care about really looking at evidence. Which we ought to.

I'm not familiar with these books. My teacher recommends this one: http://www.amazon.ca/Serpent-Power-S.../dp/0486230589 I thought the relationship between the images I posted are pretty self-explanatory. The recognition comes with the experience of it, then images are recognized as a human interpretation (anthropomorphism, poetry, sacred geometry, vision...) of an inner experience. As Norththrope Frye once said, humanity thinks in metaphor (this is like that). I don't know what else to say to this.

2. There are numerous other energies running through the human soul system apart from kundalini itself.

Well, as I understand it - all is energy. There are different names for the function of the energy or the manifestation of the energy. Kundalini is prana (chi/qi/universal life force energy) manifesting in the human being when the sushumna is awakened (that's the central subtle channel in the spine). In ordinary, unawakened consciousness, Kundalini is active only to keep the body alive and there is very little spiritual evolution activity going on or rather it's mostly happening on the outside as life tries to knock some sense into the person. It is said that the spiritual journey really begins with awakened Kundalini. That's when the soul has an opportunity to become a CONSCIOUS co-creating partner with its/his/her own self-evolution.

3. It is definitely the case that some uses of snake imagery do not refer to kundalini.

Not every image of a snake is a reference to Kundalini, of course.

4. This being a thread about chakras, it is also the case that not every civilization used a chakra system in order get the kundalini to rise, and the ones that did had different ideas about how to use them.

I agree that not every civilization used a chakra system in their interpretation of what was happening in the spiritual experience. Not every person is even aware they have chakras. Nonetheless chakras do exist in every person and Kundalini is the basis of all spiritual experiences. " A rose by any other name still smells as sweet." Some religions only focus on the crown chakra or the heart. I think a lot of the confusion arises because the chakras have many functions, not only as vortexes of energy and information, but each is a transformer for spiritual expression, a stage of evolution, and a realm or dimension. But if you read autobiographies of mystics who describe their experience, there is commonality. The greatest degree of difference between experiences are in the lower chakras, but in the crown, there is oneness and one experience common to all.

BTW I learned from an archeology class I once took how religions revere the sacred whatever form it takes, which is why archeologists find churches built on top of pagan spaces. And it could be an expropriation too or a way to gain acceptance in the early missionary days. The celtic iconography seen in the book of Kells, which is an ancient handpainted Bible, combines early Christian and ancient pagan images - lots of spirals and serpents. I believe that Christianity demonized the serpent power only to expropriate it as the Holy Spirit. Only the elite may have understood its esoteric significance. The gnostics had a better grasp, but they did a lot of expropriating too. I'm not an expert on these matters but it is the way of the world, consistent with the colonizing mentality we still see today.

5. It is not necessarily the case that every culture and every spirituality makes use of kundalini. From our present position this is a hypothesis... we need to do more work on this before we know what we are talking about as a species.

(see my comments for #4)

And BTW I speak as a confirmed believer in cross-cultural kundalini phenomena. Further:

6. I do know of Kundalini in India, China, Greece, Egypt, Christian systems, and some local/indigenous spiritual groups around the world, and would consider those cases solid. I don't know much about Tibet but I'd be astonished if someone couldn't show that, seeing as how the tradition is live. Also the European alchemical tradition, that's very solid.

I think someone started to make a cross cultural film about the serpent power experience.

7. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that kundalini occurs naturally and is not inherently a cultural phenomenon, because it can occur spontaneously in people who know nothing about it, and are not even 'spiritual', as a completely natural upshot of nervous system behaviour.

Agree 100% and yet medical science denies its existence. I'm sure many people have been labelled insane, when it was really not a psychotic but a spiritual experience. BTW not all Kundalini experiences are so dramatic - it depends on where the person is blocked and how the energy was awakened. On the other hand, there is a fine line between enlightenment and madness. It's important to be grounded, and at that level, IMHO to have a competent master to guide you.

8. There are some very intriguing and definite cross-cultural discoveries which show the knowledge of energy and many other things is discovered in parallel rather than simply spreading by word of mouth.

Well, truth is truth. By the same token look at the names for mother around the world. They all sound more or less like "mama" because that's usually the first word baby says. Human beings share a common spiritual anatomy.

9. We are beginning to have some definite understanding of the phenomenon from a scientific point of view, both psychological and biological.

Good! It's about time!

But I will end with:

10. There isn't enough definite knowledge available to state for certain 'one true correct' theory of kundalini, even within a tradition much less across them. We are at the beginning of our understanding here, and in order not to shortchange ourselves and to really know what we are trying to find out, rather than just guessing, we have to admit what we don't know at present, and be patient as we wait for more info. Something suggestive does not by any means equal anything definite. In the meantime, all lineages in the world that work with kundalini and have a definite system that works are valuable and must continue their work.

To each his own, however for me, getting the info directly from one who has experienced full awakening of all the chakras is more reliable than research, authority or tradition. More than that, I feel it myself, and he inspires the energy flow within me as well as the understanding of what exactly is happening to me. I am not asking anyone to take my word for it, only to be open to the possibility and if the desire is there, to seek it intelligently. In the words of my teacher, Sri Vasudeva:

Sri Vasudeva " ...knowledge of your spiritual being is important. The world teaches us about the physical and we have been given so many different philosophies and teachings of all kinds in terms of the spiritual but I want to say to you that in the spiritual domain experience is the most important, that when you get into the spiritual domain test everything that you read by realization, by experience – it must translate itself into an experience. If we were told that God is a man then we should want to see Him. And you see how many crazy beliefs we have – that the world will end on a certain day. And you can’t imagine that so many people will believe that. You [need to] test everything."

Thanks for your interest Prokopton which gives me an opportunity to share.