Whats to assume, I say something about needles in the eyes and you see subconscious pain. You see the suffering in the world just like I do, and you suffer aversions to that imagery.

The number of times I say I notice the wonderment of human qualities seem to be lost, though you might be see only the darkness of me by seeking only my suffering, but I don't deny my darker qualities and they are not 'nice'. It is those which enable me to notice them in all others, even you, but there is a difference. I seek the 'namaste' and so I see it... but even now in every word you seek my subconscious pain and I'd sooner not speak at all having you evaluate me, but I don't give a damn, and I can see straight through it.

[quote]

In my experience, science suggests "if we can't explain it, it doesn't exist". Quantum asks the big questions and says "Maybe...Or". Spiritual says "anything is possible." That's what I like about the spiritual aspects....the door is always left ajar.

Boy Xan, you're like a hound-dog on the scent trail and ready to pounce!

There may also be the scientific viewpoint of "if we think it is non-existant and if there is no evidence of its existance then we will never consider exploring any possibilities relating to the subject"

The shame about that aspect is that so many doors are never opened to the world of science in the first place due to pointless trivialities about the validity and usefullness of a new avenue of research.

Spirituality goes to places that science is too stiff and structured to even approach.

Off topic, but meh *shrugs*

Oh, also, Gem and Xan....I love passionate debates like the one you two are ensnared in right now. I'm interested in seeing the result of it all.

[quote=NightSpirit]
No scientist would ever say that. Science just sees what happen to occur and says something about it... and mostly that's 'we don't know' or 'there is no evidence for that' and the scientific door is wide open to infinite possibility.

You personally take 'spirituality' to be a certain way... but I see it as the list of catagories in SF. Take a bloke like me. I don't believe in God and think religion is a debarkle, guruism is a farce and 90% of all new age writing is fanciful tripe, and you would ask why an I associated with this site, but I don't care about religious guruic written nonsense, there's millions and millions of words which chitter chatter like demented monkies and millions of people chasing pots of gold at the ends of rainbows and the whole thing amounts to abject chaos.

Now we see the science is brought into the new age bandwagon and used to validate 'the secret' so spiritualists can say 'we knew that all along', but the thing that is really missing is scientists are people like shop keepers or engineers or flakey chai sipping freaks down at the ashram... so it's simply untrue to say 'science' is this thing which believes that... it's just a job people do.

[quote=Gem]
Oh? I beg to differ. The scientific final word was once 'the world is flat', 'there is nothing smaller then what our magnifiers can see', 'the sun revolved around the earth', 'Galileo was imprisoned because he disputed scientific notions'.....so to me science is very one-eyed, even in decisions of research.

What you believe about others is irrelevant and your own personal views, but I will argue your assumption that I 'take spirituality a certain way'. You cannot know this.

Regardless I wish not to indulge in silly talk.

[quote=NightSpirit]
No the church's final word was the world is flat and stationary and lies at the centre of the universe. Galileo was imprisoned by the church for heresy, so to me spiritual beliefs are very one eyed.


I don't know what spirituality means, but it has something to do with God and religions and gurus and stuff then there's more liberal meditation ghost busting astral lucid dreaming and the list goes on... so when you say spirituality leaves the door ajar... it didn't in the case of galileo and in fact it is the science that enlightened the spiritual in that case.

I like this and I agree with it. I think its one of the things about spirituality that is maddening to me. Not just that spiritualists have all the answers, but oftimes they try to invalidate perfectly reasonable answers already on the table in favor of something spiritual. (Science would suggest you got struck by lightning because you were playing golf in a thunderstorm, and basically holding a lightning rod. A spiritual answer would be you were paying some karmic debt [Or had angered a spirit/diety/faerie etc.] and dismiss the scientific rationale entirely.).

Ok Xan, but I wasn't mentioning avoidance and denial. What I meant was that we may not know what the future brings, so there's the possibility that 'suffering' by itself can return. I know people don't like it when such a thing is said, but this has nothing to do with optimism/pessimism, but with realism. Note the ''can and does eliminate pain'' above < that's doesn't work, 'can' implies possible, 'does' implies guarantee..

Science is looking for more and works on trial and error. It does not say.. ''It's all fixed. We figured out everything''. That's the line of the spiritual guru.

It was the Catholic church that did not want any new discoveries that challenged the Bible.It gets me every time Scibat. Maybe science and rational evaluation are just too ''masculine'' for many modern spiritual people. (gender constructs lol)