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ImthatIm 27-01-2021 06:36 PM

I have a goal of cutting a trail down a hundred foot steep almost cliffside.
This should give me a trail down to a river.
If all goes well and it is doable I may find a spot to put up a lodge.

sentient 29-01-2021 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Your two mind-sets picture reminded me where my thinking was at.

I had heard it told that the pilgrims were taught how to farm/cultivate
by using Native agriculture, especially the Three sisters system.
Corn/Squash/Beans.

So a hunter gather society teaching an agricultural/industrial society to survive by farming.
What?


Sorry ImthatIm for the late reply. Have been having a lot on my plate to deal with of late.

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I know I am terribly biased in my mind-set.
But then again being over 80% (82-86%) hunter-gatherer still ... genetically – well, what can one expect. ….

There were no massacres as far as I am aware of when the Near Eastern agriculturalists came to Europe, it just meant the loss of wildlife habitat, the big game to hunt plus the large predators, so the hunter-gatherers moved further and further up North until we ended up near or in the Arctic Circle.

What you were describing there ImthatIm (I trust) was the situation like in Lithuania. Agriculture was adopted, but with the hunter-gatherer worldview values (though I don’t think Lithuanians were ‘shamanic’ … as they lack Siberian ancestry and influence).

What Oren Lyons said at the end of his long video about ‘planting ceremony’ and the “Leader of the Fruit” made me smile.

The way the white reindeer is a manifestation of the reindeer deity, people growing turnips had a turnip deity.
Quote:

Äkräs was the god of fertility in Karelian mythology. He was also the god of turnip and the protector of beans, peas, cabbage, flax, and hemp. When the turnip took a form like a 'Siamese twin' it was Holy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
So me thinks to just separate the two is not so simple.
Me thinks the mind sets are:
1. Receiving in Thanksgiving from Earth/Grandmother living in balance with Her.(Ours)Mitakuye Oyasin
2. Taking from Earth/dirt as a consumer and conqueror, seeing the Earth as something to subdue.(Mine) My God given right to Takeey and conquer in the Name of the Lord. Foolishness.

P.S. And the Bear probably taught the three sister method to the people.
Bear is the Chief teacher of the Plants and Herbal Medicines. eh?


Of course there is always overlap but still, I see those 3 - the hunter-gatherer, the agriculturalists and the steppe-pastoralists as having distinctly different worldviews.

Hunter gatherer mind-set is as though still living in the womb of creation i.e. nondual state (and the spirituality that goes with it).

Agriculturalist start ‘ordering the landscape’ in dual terms i.e. they had a ‘fall from nonduality’ … have Pegan priests whatnot …

Animal herders … at least if one herded camels, one would not lose one's sense of humour …

I guess this is why ‘Indo-Europeans’ love the Injun warrior on horse stereotype, the Comanche image and hate Genghis Khan who came a bit too close for comfort.
(Well, I don’t understand this kind of - what I see as a double standard).
Nor do I understand this selective blindness as Vikings here are not mentioned:
https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-ancient-dna/

I remember enjoying Joseph Campbells talks, so I dug one up again, who can describe this herder mentality better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPh4dHDmx0

Trying to keep links to minimum. Sorry Native Spirit.

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sentient 29-01-2021 06:54 PM

Continued ...

Farming and animal husbandry doesn’t go hand in hand with a totemic system.
Similar to what Oren Lyons said, if you are/have a bear or a wolf as your totem – you are responsible for that animal’s wellbeing.
If they go extinct – you go extinct.
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...80&postcount=9

I do understand the Amerind sarcasm about the ‘invaders’ or ‘whites’ … whatever – desire to now get some cool Native American Totems.
But, by the same token I really did not appreciate the Amerind ‘educators’ ridicule about our totemic beliefs. Our Totemic Ancestry, because Europeans do/did not have totems – right?
Imo. these “educators” about “cultural appropriation” really should go ‘n’ educate themselves first.

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Even though 'totemism' is no longer practiced, it is interesting how the sense of it still lingers on, plus it has also been interesting to watch what happens to some people (who have been cut off from their culture) … when they do meet a genuine Spiritual Elder.

If they recognize the nondual ‘connection’ – it only takes 5min. to a day for all of it to start ‘coming back’ to them. It is like lighting up some ancient spiritual neural pathways.

In general, an Indo-European does not have those innate Aboriginal ‘neural pathway energy patterns’ how could he or she?!
His/her ‘neural pathway energy pattern' is to externally imitate and doesn’t really understand the difference:
https://bluejayblog.files.wordpress....pg?w=402&h=598

Which of course doesn’t mean those ‘neural pathways’ cannot be learned/developed in time if one integrates into indig. tribe/society etc.

But when the ‘enrolled indigenous’ themselves no longer recognize the difference either – this starts to become a worry.

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ImthatIm 29-01-2021 06:59 PM

Quote:

Sorry ImthatIm for the late reply. Have been having a lot on my plate to deal with of late.

No worries. I hope to have a lot of goodies on my plate come Spring.


Quote:

What you were describing there ImthatIm (I trust) was the situation like in Lithuania. Agriculture was adopted, but with the hunter-gatherer worldview values (though I don’t think Lithuanians were ‘shamanic’ … as they lack Siberian ancestry and influence).


I would not really trust anything I type.I am unsure how to formulate my
mind pictures into words well. Writing has always been difficult for me.
I just hope that I can get a snippet of the essence and picture across.
Many things I write read like a piece of Swiss cheese. LOL


I don't have a vast knowledge of the topic on hunter vs. farmer, just an opinion on what I have observed and heard in life.I know nothing of Lithuania.


I'll write more later after I view Oren again and view your links.

sentient 29-01-2021 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

I don't have a vast knowledge of the topic on hunter vs. farmer, just an opinion on what I have observed and heard in life.I know nothing of Lithuania.

Well ... Indigenous Europeans and all that ...

You speak your truth – this is good.
You are not here claiming totemic-hunter-gatherer ancestry either, European or Amerind.
Nor do I see your avatar as you promoting yourself, but promoting Amerind Spirituality in general which you do honour and respect.

All good!

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ImthatIm 30-01-2021 10:40 AM

sentient

Quote:

What Oren Lyons said at the end of his long video about ‘planting ceremony’ and the “Leader of the Fruit” made me smile.


Ah yeah, ceremony, Strawberry ceremony,corn ceremony.
Yeah, here with my wife's people we do berry ceremonies and
Salmon ceremony.Root ceremony. Cedar tree ceremony.
Bear ceremony, and other Spring ceremonies.


Though, we sadly are a shrinking group.


Even when gathering, we identify the Eldest plant relative
(we see plants as relatives) and ask permission before harvesting and
offer gifts, mainly tobacco.We especially ask that the Spirit of
that plant help us, along with the physical part for nourishment.


We don't just expect our plants to just be on shelves.
Life deserves more respect then that.



I should add, that my wife spent 3 months living with the clan Mothers
in Onondaga and she knows Oren.

ImthatIm 30-01-2021 11:22 AM

sentient

Joseph Campbell.
I love listening to him, and always have.


Listening to him, brought to light another thing.
The Land/environment dictates the systems of survival and the humans
are adaptable.
I also see humans also as opportunists, which can be good or bad.


Lakota's and others domesticated both dogs and later horses.

ImthatIm 30-01-2021 11:44 AM

sentient
I can see/witness hunter-gather society being replaced with the casino-check system
of survival in 1 or 2 generations.
A grandfather may be on the river and in the woods and sons or grandsons
could care less.They don't have to, because they know the easier system I call the
casino-check system.:icon_frown:

ImthatIm 30-01-2021 01:04 PM

sentient

or anyone interested.
Here is another teacher, one I can understand.
The way he talks is what I am use to.
Talking of Chanunpa, sundance, Redroad, Vision quest.
The Purification (sweat) lodge, which he does not
mention but it is a part of all he was talking about.


It makes me happy to hear these words from him.
18:11 mins. long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylxuYeQRSh8

sentient 31-01-2021 09:14 AM

I remember this and it made a big impression on me at the time about respecting Native Americans as defenders of Indigenous peoples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNMEbzm4WM

Of course my naiveté there was in for a rude awakening later on, BUT the more I listen to him, the more I really respect him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GpIkrqOlHA

I can’t picture him allowing himself to be seen/regarded as a pope-like-figure among the injuns and then cashing in on the “white guilt” & receiving personal donations from people … from nations who formerly have been the oppressors of their own indigenous peoples …. as if these donations to injun-like-pope-figurehead would somehow absolve, grant release these former oppressors of their ‘sins’.

Just saying.

To my mind he speaks ‘indigeousness’ with genuine integrity that resonates.

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