What does the Jewish faith believe about Jesus?
 

Just a simple question as I am curious to know. Thanks!

G -

Once you get beyond the Jewish positions that you're probably aware of:
a) Jesus was not the messiah;
b) Jesus is not G-d incarnate or the son of G-d;
c) Jesus was not born of a virgin;
d) Jesus was not resurrected from the dead;
there is no one belief, there are not any beliefs regarding Jesus that can be called THE Jewish beliefs.

B'shalom,

Peter

A very consise and to the point response Rabbi O. Let me ask a question sorta off topic, but indirectly related. I have always noticed that I have not seen members of the Jewish faith trying to convert others to Judiasm. Is that because G-D is accessable by all and need not be a member of a faith to fully understand and reap the benefits of a relationship with our creator?

blessings

Interesting. In particular that Judaism does not believe in the Immaculate Conception or The Resurrection....

Jews can't believe in Jesus, he goes against their belief system, he also talks of a god of love, not a warmongering god.

Honza -

Actually, I hadn't brought up the Immaculate Conception - which refers not to Jesus, but rather Mary being born without sin. Jews do not believe in original sin so there is no need for the IC.

B'shalom,

Peter

G -

It has been a long held tenet in Judaism that the righteous of all nations have a share in what is referred to as olam ha-bah, the world to come. In other words one does not need to be Jewish to find favor with the divine.

That said, there was a long period of time when Judaism actively sought converts - and apparently were quite successful - as noted in uncomplementary writings from such as Tacitus and even in Christian scripture (Mark 23:15).

There are reasons why this changed after 135 C.E. and became a more discouraging practice, but I need not go into that here.

B'shalom,

Peter

BUT...if anyone is interested, I think it is very touching to see the hope & spirit of the people described briefly & archived here in coin stamping...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ondRevolt.html

l'shalom,
7L

There's a certain inevitability to this kind of comment. There is no inevitability that it needs to be answered. Been there, done that more times than I like to think.

You're free to make the assessment that you have made.

לכי לשלום
Go in peace.

Peter

LOL...psycho...btw Jesus was an observant Jew, if perhaps what we would call today a bit of a hardliner and a rabble raiser with some beliefs that were not mainstream. Actually he is a lot like many of the tribe I know even today :tongue:

I have always felt very close to all members of the tribe, living or dead, including the house of David...from the tribe of Yehudah. At the time of the census in Bamidbar (Numbers), the majority of Jews were reported as from the "conglomerate" tribes of Yehudah (the most populous single tribe), and Yosef/Efraim.

As it says in Yechezkel (Ezekiel)....


As the navi Yechezkel later invisions in regard to the
final redemption:
"Behold, I will take the stick of Yoseph, which is in the
hand of Efraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and
I will put them unto him together with the stick of Yehudah,
and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand...
thus I will take the children of Israel from among the
nations ... and will gather them on every side, and bring
them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in
the land... and one king shall be king to them all; and they
shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided
into two kingdoms any more at all"
(see Yechezkel 37:15-22)

You can't take the Jew out of Jesus :tongue: though history has certainly tried.

There is the bit about having a religion which worships him as God.
Since we hold God is All and we view Jesus as a man, of course worship of Jesus or anyone/thing else will not go over w/ Jews. LOL....

Leaving that aside, along with some stuff that Jesus may or may not have really said (?)...

I would say his call to spiritual integrity and contemplative meditation and kavanah...or bringing intent to action...is very much in line with the "usual" exhortations from the prophets (Neviim), who were also hardliners and rabble raisers :D

Your comment abt the warmongering God would require a lot of deprogramming :D so I will leave that to the more energetic...but suffice it so say mate that we all believe in a God of compassion and lovingkindness and peace.


PEACE :smile:
7L

I think we forget jesus was jewish, living in a jewish area ( if he existed). Even pilot passed off jesus the first time becasue, as jesus christ super star put it " hes harods race, hes harods case".

I think the main question should be either " what do people who practice judeism think of jesus", or this one elaborated " what do jewish people think of jesus".....


If im not mistakin, judaism never mentiones jesus. Only by mentioning the messiah, which is ASSUMED to be jesus, but this is after the OT ( which is essentialy the torah).

So i guess if you asking what the jewish faith think of JS ( i have to assume your meaning judaism), then read the OT/Torah, and im sure rabbio can reccommend some literature to read up on.

I thought the Immaculate Conception was the condition of Mary concieving Christ while still a virgin i.e. through God.

No, it's a Catholic doctrine that Mary was born without the taint of original sin.

jesus did not complete any of the tasks that the Messiah is supposed to complete. If anything, the opposite happened.

When Moshiach comes we can look forward to:

-All of the Jewish exiles moving back to Israel (after jesus the Jews were scattered all over the Earth)
-The Temple being rebuilt (after jesus, one of the Temples were destroyed)
-Lasting world peace (after jesus there were many wars...including two world wars)


On another note:

From what I understand, there is a concept in Christianity of believing in Jesus. As an indirect comparison, Jews didn't have to "believe" in Moses. The transmission of Torah didn't start with G-d speaking to one prophet who would gain a following over time. Instead, the entire Jewish Nation personally experienced divine revelation at the time of receiving the Torah at Mt. Sinai. You could consider Moses to be transparent.

-esther

I don't remember studying that in Catholic school... I thought she was born as a mortal, with original sin like everyone else, as she was conceived by humans. It was Jesus only, in Catholic doctrine, who was without original sin, I thought...

Immaculate conception is a very non-Torah idea. Besides, G-d is the third partner in every intimate union between husband and wife.

Exactly. I agree. That is how I understood it.

This little bit from Wikipedia -

"The Immaculate Conception of Mary is, according to Catholic doctrine, the conception of the Virgin Mary without any stain ("macula" in Latin) of Original Sin. It is one of the four dogmata in Roman Catholic Mariology. The doctrine states that, from the first moment of her existence, Mary was preserved by God from the Original Sin and filled with sanctifying grace that would normally come with baptism after birth. Catholics believe Mary "was free from any personal or hereditary sin".

From early on in the history of the Catholic Church, in numerous places in the writings of the Church Fathers, the belief is implied. In various places the feast of the Immaculate Conception had been celebrated for centuries on 8 December when, on 28 February 1476, Pope Sixtus IV extended it to the entire Latin Church. He did not define the doctrine as a dogma, thus leaving Roman Catholics free to believe in it or not without being accused of heresy; this freedom was reiterated by the Council of Trent. However, the feast was a strong indication of the Church's traditional belief in the Immaculate Conception. On 6 December 1708 Pope Clement XI decreed that the feast of the Immaculate Conception be a Holy Day of Obligation.[10] throughout the entire Catholic Church.

The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus on 8 December 1854."

B'shalom,

Peter

Why do you guys use the term G-d?

In truth it is a convention that has become minhag, custom, among many Jews. I appreciate the reason for it and so out of respect for my fellow Jews I follow it, even though I recognize that actually there is no need for it.

It revolves around the holiness of G-d's name and respect of G-d's name and the attempt to not do anything to profane it. I will not go into all the whys and wherefores, but as G-d is, in fact, not G-d's name there is no prohibition against using the "o". Furthermore, under halacha, Jewish law, prohibitions regarding the writing of G-d's name actually only apply to the name written in Hebrew.

This is one instance where Jews have created a fence, so to speak, in order to make sure that halacha is not violated.

B'shalom,

Peter

I believe that Christianity's claims are true by my own experiences and I also believe that the world is too diverse to not believe in others as well. We are all ONE. If I were born in Africa I would believe in tribal gods or if I were in Japan I would believe in Confucius. They all say the same things they just word it differently. I am personally Catholic and I respect other faiths including Judaism. There are things I disagree about my own faith as well as in others. I think its all a mystery.

I was going to start my own thread, but I think some of my question ties in with this topic.
I noticed Psychoslice (Hi! :-) I've observed from y many your, that we share many of the same views.) commented on the interpretation of God in the OT being a war-like God. I, too, have grown accustomed to this aspect of Jewish doctrine but I want to know whether Jews believe God to be full of wrath or capable of experiencing wrath? Also, whether you think God is warmongoring?
I know one of you said you're tired of explaining it - I think that's how you put it - so, sorry if this request isn't comfortable for you.

I'm also wondering what the Jews' view on forgiveness is?

My beliefs are more in New Age Spirituality, Buddhism, Paganism and Witchcraft and I also believe in Christ Light/Consciousness, and follow his teachings of forgiveness and the unconditional love from Source. This, and other things, make me fond of Christianity to a point. I have always wondered whether Jews believe what I mentioned above and, if so, why?


Just as a last point: I've read a lot of the "my religion is the only true one - yours is false" kinds of postings and I'm on this sub-forum to learn more about Judaism. As far as I'm concerned, Source/God/Allah/Jehova/etc. is in us all as we're all equally loved :-)

Love and Light

I have a lot to say on this...but it's also a set of topics much misunderstood and misinterpreted outside Judaism.

What most people know of this is from an outsider's perspective.
Though I think most would agree there are many paths to God and in the end, All is One :)

Yet without the Talmud and the midrash to provide context and layers of meaning to the terse text...which is often mistranslated and taken out of context to boot...it is nearly impossible to understand the Torah as Jews do.

Hence the surface statements of the OT God being wrathful, warmongering and such. Without going into detailed examples, at a very broad level it is about the divine contract between man and God and man and man...and that humans needed to grasp that there are consequences on every level to not only action but even to thought and intention.

I'd rather someone else start...and I'll add. I'll give some time to others first who can provide the substance, like RabbiO or Yamah, etc.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Anyone who believes the Torah portrays a warmongering God has never read the book in context. Remember that the time when the stories of Abraham through Moses through David took place was the age of warlords and warmongers.

Know that, at the time, kings and pharoahs ruled with iron fists. If they wanted to start a war because another king looked at him sideways the people served. Then you find in the Torah that a king is only allowed to make wars for God and any other wars can only be faught with volunteers or paid soldiers. You find that there is an obligation to allow your enemy to flee instead of besieging them. You have to offer them the chance to surrender and become vassals instead of slaughtering them. You're not allowed to rape women on the battlefield - but have to wait several months at least before laying with them in an honest relationship. Heck, you're not even allowed to destroy fruit trees to build siege engines.

The same goes for many other issues... 'oh no there's slavery in the Torah!' yeah, that's because there was slavery in the world... it doesn't say 'thou shalt have slaves' though, it says 'IF you have a slave, THEN you have to make sure he has a pillow and a blanket even if you don't'. 'oh no, there's multiple wives in the Torah!' Yeah... and they call the second wife 'suffering' and say that you better be able to care for them both (not the other way around). 'Oh noez there is a DEATH PENALTY!'... which requires 71 judges to preside over it with a majority rule where a unanimous vote is thrown out since whenever you get 71 Jews agreeing on ANYTHING you know something's fishy. Such a requirement was made, by the way, during a time where kings would have people executed for scuffing their shoes. And the list goes on.


Getting on to Forgiveness... it amazes me that people equate Judaism with war and Christianity with forgiveness. First of all, looking at the past 2000 years, who made all the wars and who did all the 'turning the other cheek'? Secondly, yeshu didn't present a single new idea in anything he said. All his ideas on forgiveness are straight from the Torah. Only I believe the originals were much better. A few brief examples:

Jeremiah 36:3 “That every man shall return from his way, and I will forgive him.”
1 Kings 8:33-34 “If they return to You, and confess Your Name, and pray...then You will hear in Heaven and forgive their sin.”
Malachi 3:7 “...Return to Me and I will return to you...”


Hope that starts to clear things up.

warlords and warmongers may have bee there at the time, but where was this so called god to show them that they were wrong, no, he was right in there with them, fighting all the way.

Thank you Yamah! You've cleared it up a lot for me. And thanks,7L, for trying :hug2:

I remember a Robin of Sherwood episode in which a Jewish family of father, his adult daughter and two young daughter and son were discussing what to do with the Sheriff and Gisbourne. The adult daughter, whilst being a lovely person, said that "they must die" for they did to her people, but the father said "and I say, let them live. The most beautiful thing anyone can do, Sarah, is forgive." I found that so impressive and made me wonder what Jews were actually like. This was many years ago, but I've always wondered.

psychoslice, I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to say. Is it that the God they believe in was with them during the wars and didn't stop them? If so, whilst I don't agree that Source is like, I would have thought Jews believe in free will and that if people don't hear "God" tell them not to do something, it doesn't mean "He" supported it as a wrathful God.
If you meant something else, please rephrase :smile:

I know there is much left for me to understand about Judaism, but this is a good start.

Love and Light

This link will take you to "murder in the bible", it will show you throughout the bible how god killed so many in his name, its not a pretty sight.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

Psychoslice: before you go and read things written by ignorant alarmists I would highly advise looking at source materials Pretty much all of the issues addressed on that website are addressed by the sages in the Gemara. I'll discuss them in general terms here and if you would like me to quote some specific examples then please ask and I will search for them.

1) Capital Punishment Crimes
Capital Punishment as a punitive measure was commonplace for eons. Prisons weren't a viable option back then because the people had a difficult enough time supporting themselves and couldn't be expected to support freeloading prisoners. Imprisonment is hardly a perfect solution nowadays either. The prison system has a very low success rate at reforming criminals, it's a burden on taxpayers and it's a weak deterent for crimes. The only reason for using the prison system over capital punishment is if a society is, for some reason, morally opposed to killing bad people - which is a very recent value.
That being said, the Torah proscribes 3 forms of punishment: (1) Death, (2) Fines, (3) Slavery. The most commonly proscribed punishment, Death, is only enacted if it can be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the person committed a crime knowing full well what he was doing and that he was in his right mind when doing so. Monetary fines were proscribed for material transgressions, such as theft, damages etc. Slavery was proscribed for those who cannot pay fines and for a few other miscellaneous crimes. To be clear, this is a limited slavery that lasts, at the very most, seven years. And it makes a lot more sense to indebt a criminal to a good family that can show a person the error of his ways rather than lock him up with other criminals to teach him how to be a better thief.

If you argue that some of the laws for which the death penalty are proscribed seem strange I would respond that just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong. The Sabbath is one of our most holy commandments and there isn't a question in any religious Jew's mind that breaking the Sabbath makes a person worthy of death. The assignment of the death penalty is more as a sign of the severity of the commandment than an actual punishment - such measures must have rarely, if ever, actually been taken.

2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons
As stated above, just because you don't understand something doesn't make it 'Stupid'. Also keep in mind that the stories in the Torah took place at a crucial time in the development of the nation of Israel and the people back then were, of necessity, held to a higher standard than the people of today. One of the reasons for this is that Kharmic law for Jews runs through the nation as a whole - when one Jew sins all the other Jews are affected. This special connection also runs forward through time - when one person sins all future generations are affected. The pain and suffering of the past 2000 years was an indirect result of the sins of our forefathers and it is every generation's responsibility to not add to the burden and try to fix up what we can. Knowing this, things may become more clear

3) Murdering Children
This whole section is threats and prophecies save one - the murder of the first borns of Egypt. And that one happened after 9 other plagues.

and 4) Miscellaneous Murders.
Yayaya... see above. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong.

Well not History, Luminaries, rather history testifies of the ego, (devil and dragon), of mankind trying to do so.

Keyword, "Catholic", and some related the doctrine to the pagan, "Queen of Heaven" teachings prevalent in ancient times.
You can Google that.

We should come to an understanding by now... in these last days.

According to the illustration of, "The Matrix" by the Wachowskis, as well as physics revelations, there is a greater reality apart from the, "Construct", of Space/Time. Eternity.

Sin is to be equated with this evolved organic, in illusory space/time, and this physical situation in which we find ourselves, with respect to a, "Fall".

I am aware that the Jews certainly accept the events in Genesis, regarding this. Speaking of the non secular Jews.
Why would someone state that, "original sin", is not accepted?

Death and decay, (essentially Time), began, we are told in the scriptures, at,
"The Fall".

Ego, involved with the "Survival Instinct", of this organic and, evolved physical aspect, is all about sin, and, involving a, "Fall" ...

One should be asking, today, in regard to this, "A fall from what?"

"They who are wise shall shine like the lights of the firmament, and they who bring many to righteousness, as the stars for ever and ever."
Daniel 12:3.
Old Testament, or, "Torah".

Stars represent both angels and people alike, througout the Scriptures.
Old testament, and new.


Perspective ~> http://www.angelsghosts.com/angels_what_are_they.html

'Tis true that many perceptions of Mary seem to be influenced by pagan goddesses. But I fail to see how any else of what you said is even mildly relevant lol.

Animus:

Well, who stated again that the Jews don't believe in original sin?
Much of what I wrote was explanation as to why otherwise is true.


(Background and reason as to why.)
I am of Jewish lineage, btw.

From what I know - the doctrine of Original Sin is a completely Christian concept, that is rejected by most, if not all Jewish sects. So, what is your point? :wink:

What was intended by the statement 'Jews don't believe in Original Sin' is 'Jews don't believe in the ramifications of the Original Sin as described by Catholics'. Specifically, Jews don't believe that every person is born into a state of sinfulness which must then be cleansed. It is obvious of course that the physical world exists in a lowered state because of Adam's fall and that we, in turn, are affected. But individuals are born pure until they themselves sin. The biggest difference between the two opinions is that a newborn child who dies, according to Catholics goes to hell and according to Jews goes straight to Gan Eden (heaven).

I believe the misunderstanding is based on the statement 'the sins of a father will fall on their children'. According to Christians this means the state of guilt resulting from a sin. According to Jews this means two things: first that the punishment (but not guilt) will be felt by a child and second that the child will be more prone to succumbing to that sin (like the child of an alcoholic tends to be an alcoholic). Guilt is non-transferable.

I've skimmed through it and yes, it is rather disturbing, but doesn't all sound like the bible I know. Many were out of context, and I don't want to find them now as my bible (right next to me) is a different version.
It seems most are from the mouths of men about "the Lord" and not by the "Lord's" mouth, so that sounds to me that the authors/editors were particularly hateful, not the God in question.

Thanks for the link, anyway. I will probably take a look, using my bible as a reference for context :)
Since I'm taking into account the bible being written by men, I'd like to know whether today's Jews take the Torah by it's every word and how they view their God.

Yamah, I noticed you spoke of Adam's fall. What is your view on Adam and Eve? By that I mean, do you believe that our origins are what happened in the Garden of Eden as Genesis portrays? (I'm aware of the variety of translations but have no idea what you or other Jews use.)

Every word of the Torah is TRUE. Not every word is literal. All the events of the Exodus and further happened just as is written - every Jewish source states that unwaveringly.

As for the book of Genesis, there is some debate as to where to draw the line between what happened in the physical reality in which we find ourselves and what happened in a higher spiritual dimension which is different from our own. Rare sources state that even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still lived in spiritual reality and weren't actual people and that the progeny of Israel's twelve sons were the first to incarnate physically. Most sources, however, draw the line either at the fall of adam or the great flood. Before that time everything written HAPPENED, but happened in a spiritual world that we cannot comprehend from 'down here'.

Some modern sources attempt to say that the story of Adam and Chava (Eve) actually happened in a literal sense. There is no basis for such an interpretation in any traditional Jewish source and such a belief comes about either through ignorance of our source material, Christian influence or both.

Many sources - selected answers
 

There are Gospels that don't believe in it - The Aquarian Gospel for one (at least the Immaculate Conception). The Koran says Jesus was not crucified as do other sources I mention in my book.
I'd post a link but I can't so I google Aquarian Gospel or try to get to the forum at my site be going to Oracle of the Phoenix dot com.

Personally, I'm not big on the authenticity of the Aquarian Gospel. However, you don't have to go so far afield to find a gospel that doesn't teach the virgin birth or the resurrection. The Gospel of Mark seems to imply that Jesus is adopted as a Son of God at his baptism, and doesn't mention his birth. And most scholars agree that the last part of Mark that describes the resurrection is a later addition.

Jews very much believe in Jesus.... They say he was a PROFIT and who knows for sure if he was or not.......

Jesus was orignally Jewish and for some reason they didnt want him....... I wonder if its because he was much different than them??

In Luke 3: 22; Those who would have you believe that Jesus was a god who became a man, changed the original verse, to; “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”

While in Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,” vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.” Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.”

Hebrew 5: 5; has; “You are my son, ‘TODAY’ I have become your Father.”

Jesus, the son of Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Heli=Alexander Helios III, was born, 'Son of God', not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, which, on the day he was baptised, descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, 'THIS DAY' I have begotten thee".

Peace to all believers.