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Morpheus 03-10-2021 06:48 PM

The Depraved
 
With regard to the Fall of the "first man", Roger Penrose has stated that "the big bang" was the end of a former universe, as well as initiating ours.
Paradise, where Adam lived is a timeless situation.
Look it up in the New Testament to see it is timeless.

This universe, as a consequence to Adams fall, comes with a whole different organic history.
Evolution of the organic brought us to where we have become created in God's image. Which is why the devil is called the ruler and god of this world.
He is the instigator of this organic, evolved animal/mammal manifestation. Which differs regarding the Lord's original intent.
You can see the origin of humanity in Mathew 22:24-30, and in Revelation 12:4.


In the scriptures we see how when the icy fog above the planet melted during the Flood, the cosmic rays were inundating the planet, and the lifespans began to diminish.
They tell you to use sunscreen for a reason today.

This is a large part of why our bodies age, decay and perish. Yet, as we are told in Mathew 22:24-30, and in Revelation 12:4, we are more and other than just our physical form.

From Christianity.com -
" The Bible is clear that we have no “capacity for ascension” from ourselves, but instead are totally depraved, and are saved only by the grace of God.
Ephesians 2:8-9

So you see...
The Matrix has you.

Morpheus 03-10-2021 08:28 PM

So, people like sky, and Busby insist there is no sin in humanity.
Using just a few names, such as Jeffrey Dalmer, and those like him?

Which if we so choose... can watch, and hear about daily on T.V., and in the local News?
How does one agree with their philosophy? Unless they deem themselves a, "Frog"?
Like Busby.

"The sin of the world", which John the Baptist declared upon seeing Jesus, involves our human, evolved, organic aspect.
Different than our origin, and true identity.
However, being human you cannot distinguish yourself as any different.

We are among the depraved, no matter what your ego tells you.
Welcome to The Matrix.

The Anointed 03-10-2021 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morpheus
Roger Penrose has stated that "the big bang" was the end of a former universe, as well as initiating ours.


The 'Big Bang' is the beginning of each generation of the universe, but never the end. The end of each generation of the universe is the 'Big Crunch', when the entire universe is crushed back into the singularity from which it originated.

Russian physicist and mathematician Alexander Friedmann, in the early 1920s, became the first person to embrace the idea that the equations of Einstein’s general theory of relativity called for a universe in motion.

The Friedmann universe begins with a Big Bang, which is the beginning of an expanding universe and continues expanding for untold billions of years—that’s the stage we’re in now. But after a long enough period of time, the mutual gravitational attraction of all the matter slows the expansion to a stop. The universe then starts to fall in on itself, replaying the expansion in reverse. Eventually all the matter collapses back into a singularity, in what physicist John Wheeler likes to call the “Big Crunch,” which is the end of that generation of the universe.

A singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the gravitational laws explained by general relativity break down. In a singularity, the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite. Scientists believe such a singularity exists at the core of a black hole, which occurs when a super-massive sun reaches the end of its life and implodes.

General relativity also demands such a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe, from which singularity our eternal oscillating and ever evolving universe is resurrected to continue on in that everlasting process.

The Theory of the BIG BANG as the origin of this universe, begins with an infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small ‘SINGULARITY’ which was spatially separated and spewed out, as an extremely hot liquid like plasma of electromagnetic energy in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, in fact our scientists claim that the universal temperature at the instant of the Big Bang, was 100 million trillion trillion kelvins, or 180 million trillion trillion degrees Fahrenheit, a temperature in which no physical element can exist.

As light came out of the darkness according to scripture, we see a day as a period of Darkness which is followed by an equal period of light. Although we call the period of darkness, evening or night, and the period of light, we call day: as Jesus once said; "A day has 12 hours does it not, so work while the light is with you."

Genesis 2: 4; in reference to the 6 days of creation, it is written, "These are the generations of the universe."

This day in which we live or rather this generation of light, which came out of the darkness, has existed for some 13.8; billion years, and although we can see the evidence that the gathering of this universe back to the singularity of origin has already begun, science believes it will be many more billions of years before the process is completed, and there will be the next period of Darkness.

But as a singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite, there can be no momentum and therefore no time, and to an observer there would appear to be no time between the completion of the Big Crunch, to the next Big Bang the observer would see the universe being crushed to the size of a ball then immediately bouncing back to begin expanding again.

And we see this in a study Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff. Where three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking. To arrive at their pre-existing universe finding, Ashtekar’s group used loop quantum gravity, a theory that seeks to reconcile General relativity with quantum physics.

These two seemingly fundamental theories are otherwise contradictory in some ways. Loop quantum gravity, which was pioneered at Ashtekar’s institute, proposes that spacetime has a discrete “atomic” structure, as opposed to being a continuous sheet, as Einstein, along with most us, assumed. In loop quantum gravity, space is thought of as woven from one-dimensional “threads.” The continuum picture remains mostly valid as an approximation. But near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn so that it’s discrete, or quantum, nature becomes important. One outcome of this is that gravity becomes repulsive instead of attractive, Ashetkar argued; the result is the Big Bounce.

Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, a cosmologist who has explored some related concepts, wrote in an email that the new research “Supports, in a general way, the idea that the Big Bang need not be the beginning of space and time.” The universe “may have undergone one or more bangs in its past history,” he added. Steinhardt and colleagues have also proposed a bounce of sorts, but it’s different. It could turn out that the two scenarios are equivalent at some deep level, but that’s not known, he added. Steinhardt‘s scenario makes use of string theory, another attempt to reconcile General Relativity with quantum physics. Some versions of string theory portray our visible universe as a three -dimensional space embedded in an invisible space having more dimensions.

Our zone, called a braneworld [the word comes from its similarity to a sort of membrane] could periodically bounce into another parallel braneworld. Such an event might look to us, stuck in a few dimensions as we are, as a Big Bang. “I don’t know if Ashetkar’s case translates into a bounce between braneworlds like we are describing,” Steinhardt wrote. But by his estimate, this cataclysm won’t take place for another roughly 300 billion years—so there is hopefully plenty of time to answer the question. (This is questionable)

Just as the Big Bang theory has been evolving over the years and is continuing to evolve as new data becomes available, these big Crunch theories that are just beginning to emerge are still in their infancy.
Because three-dimensional time as we know it, does not exist prior to the Big Bang: from the return of the universe to the supposedly infinitely hot, infinitely dense and infinitesimally small singularity of origin to the next Big Bang when three dimensional space and time would begin again, it would appear to an outside observer, that no time had elapsed, thus [As I believe] the erroneous Big Bounce theory.

Peace Morph.

Morpheus 03-10-2021 11:47 PM

Well, you debate it with Roger Penrose, the mathematician.

My understanding T.A., is that, what we perceive as "reality", actually is a translation of vibrations.
We can't perceive everything that exists in our evolved human form.
The evolved animal/mammal, over illusory time.

Which, again, the chief rebel instigated at Adams Fall.

The Anointed 04-10-2021 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morpheus
Well, you debate it with Roger Penrose, the mathematician.


And why would I bother to debate it with Roger Penrose, who according to YOU, erroneously believes that the 'Big Bang' is the 'END' of the universe, instead of the beginning?

Have you listened to Penrose's explanation of what he believes occurred before the Big Bang?

Penrose believes that there was something before the Big Bang, and there was. The previous universe was still contracting before the Big Bang and would not stop contracting until space, time, and momentum ceased, and all that existed was the singularity, which would be spatially separated once again in the event we call the Big Bang, which is the birth of a new expanding universe.

According to the German theoretical physicist, Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck: One Planck time is the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to cross a distance equal to one Planck length.

This is the point from where the theory of the Big Bounce originated, but according to the theory of the Big Crunch, does space momentum and time, really cease there, or does space continue to contract beyond the Planck length?

I'll have to leave that for now, something's harassing the poultry down the paddock, I'll have to check it out.

catch yo later Morph.

Ok, I'm back before the time to edit has expired, so to continue, According to the German theoretical physicist, Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck: One Planck time is the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to cross a distance equal to one Planck length.


Anything smaller than the Planck length is not meaningful physically. But science cannot say with any certainty that there is nothing smaller that the Planck length.


Physicists call the Planck length the smallest meaningful distance, which is not the same as saying that Planck length is the smallest possible length.

As the universe contracts beyond the Planck Length, and space continues to contract does momentum also slow down, the question is, how long would it take the contracting universe, after having past Planck’s equations, to reach zero space, momentum, and time? The singularity, which contains the entire previous universe, which in reality is only "B]THOUGHT[/b]".

IMO, that which is called the Big Bang, should be called "THE GREAT AWAKENING".

The Anointed 04-10-2021 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morpheus
My understanding T.A., is that, what we perceive as "reality", actually is a translation of vibrations.


And IMO you are correct, without an observer, there is no universe. In reality, there is no such thing as sound, when a tree falls in the forest there is no sound without an observer, only silent shock waves spreading out from the point of impact, unless there is a created sensor there to pick up those waves and convert them to electric pulses which are sent to the created brain, where those shock waves as converted to that which you perceive as sound.

As with the fragrance of a flower, those molecules which are released from the flower have no scent, it's only when they enter your created nostrils and are converted to electric pulses which are sent to the created brain, where they are then perceived to be a wonderful fragrance of the flower, which in reality has no colour, etc, and so it is with all the senses of the observer, without who, there would only be the swirling expanding cloud of vibrating photons, which are the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the event that is called 'The Big Bang' which electromagnetic energy, we perceive as this physical universe and all therein.

You and I Morph, we are no more than a mass of swirling vibrating atoms which have no physical properties whatsoever.

May our God preserve you Morph.

davidmartin 04-10-2021 08:13 AM

sounds like this thread is about what Oscar Wilde was saying
‘We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars’
i'd rather look at the stars than get to know the gutter really well, apparently i was born wearing that t-shirt

Morpheus 04-10-2021 08:51 PM

Busby actually is giving explanation about what I cited earlier about some protestant teachings, which Ms. Hepburn cited me on.
It's about grace vs. works.

Of course St. Paul goes into much dialogue over this in his writings.
Meanwhile, the Catholics had gotten it right, regardong thr original sin.
Not all protestants teach what Busby thinks though.

Miss Hepburn 04-10-2021 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
In reality, there is no such thing as sound, when a tree falls in the forest there is no sound without an observer, only silent shock waves spreading out from the point of impact,...

As with the fragrance of a flower, those molecules which are released from the flower have no scent, it's only when they enter your created nostrils and are converted to electric pulses which are sent to the created brain, where they are then perceived to be a wonderful fragrance of the flower...

You and I Morph, we are no more than a mass of swirling vibrating atoms which have no physical properties whatsoever.

Oh my, your sentences are so long! GOOD! :tongue: Cuz this is great stuff and needs repeating!

The Anointed 04-10-2021 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morpheus
Evolution of the organic brought us to where we have become created in God's image. Which is why the devil is called the ruler and god of this world.


Death is the ruler of this world Morph.

GNB, John 14: 30-31; I cannot talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know that I love the Father; that is why I do everything as he commands me.

Now death, where is your victory, now, where is your sting. The Lord through his obedient servant Jesus has defeated the ruler of this world, Revelation 3:21; "To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne, just as I have been victorious and now sit by my Father on his throne."

PBU you Morph.

Morpheus 04-10-2021 11:06 PM

Perhaps share something about God's grace with Busby, Annointed.
And our need for it.

Busby 05-10-2021 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
And IMO you are correct, without an observer, there is no universe.
May our God preserve you Morph.


The Anointed - this may interest you;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo

The Anointed 05-10-2021 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busby
The Anointed - this may interest you;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo


How does consciousness happen? Somehow in each of our 'CREATED' brains the combined activity of billions of 'CREATED' neurons each one a tiny biological machine is generating a conscious experience.

Watched it, and read many articles pertaining to consciousness, which are interesting, but IMO, it is only in observing the perceived physical realities that we can grasp the unseen spiritual true realities, and one of the erroneous claims by your chosen champions, appear to me, to suggest that consciousness ceases to exist when the body, of “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created.

What they fail to realise is that after the death of the body, there remains, a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU, the mind, spirit, or consciousness, that has been imprinted into the universal life force or soul, which returns to ‘THE GREAT THOUGHT,’ [The collective consciousness of all that exists] from which it will be resurrected in this cycle, or the next cycle of universal activity.

Unless of course that mind which is the potential child of the Logos, in whose presence no flesh and blood can exist, is aborted and suffers the second death and is separated from the eternal soul, which is the end of consciousness for that entity, after which there is nothing but everlasting total oblivion.

As spoken by your chosen expert, who said; "And when the end of consciousness comes there’s nothing to be afraid of, because there is nothing."

sky 05-10-2021 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed

As spoken by your chosen expert, who said; "And when the end of consciousness comes there’s nothing to be afraid of, because there is nothing."

Does 'Consciousness' have an end though, according to Siddhartha and some Scientists it doesn't :smile:

Morpheus 05-10-2021 11:31 PM

Then there is the, "Semi-Conscious".

Gem 06-10-2021 01:21 AM

I'm pretty sure Buddhist philosophy says consciousness is contingent with the senses and arises and passes away. The irony is, to know that, one must experience the arising and falling of consciousness. One example from the Satipatthana sutta: "Thus are formations; thus is the arising of formations; and thus is the disappearance of formations. Thus is consciousness; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness." Naturally the irony of awareness of passing consciousness gives rise to lots of convolution as scholars continue producing knowledge to remain relevant.

There is no scientific rationale for consciousness apart from hypotheses that it emerges from activity of the brain (comes from material interactions). That aligns with Buddhist views on contingent consciousness. The difference is, Buddhists claim material and consciousness are concurrent whereas material science would assume material precedes the emergence of consciousness, but because experience isn't necessary for biological survival, there is no known reason as to why experience exists (see 'the hard problem' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5DfnIjZPGw). Hence, some scientists posit that consciousness is a fundamental property of space time (could be be measurable), but that's not science per-se as much as it is their personal philosophy.

How does this relate to time?

In the Buddhist view consciousness is not prior to or giving rise to phenomena. These are mutually contingent and occur concurrently. Hence, no time frame in which it endures is necessary. It's impermanent and momentary.

In the scientific view something has to be fundamental and prior to maintain some semblance of causation. Indeed most religious or any creation narratives must assume an uncaused causer like God. Of course, the causal paradigms require quite a linear aspect of time

I personally like how the Buddhists do away with a necessity for time, but not the facts that there are only so many hours in a day and each moment of life is precious.

Gem 06-10-2021 01:41 AM

OK, weird. I thought I was on the Is Time Real thread.

The Anointed 06-10-2021 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
"Thus are formations; thus is the arising of formations; and thus is the disappearance of formations. Thus is consciousness; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.


Thus is the resting period of Brahman=Logos, thus is the awakening of Brahman=Logos, “The two that are one, which is the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all being must return at the end of each period of universal activity.”

The eternal oscillating universe that expands with the Big Bang and disappears with the Big Crunch.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The eternal singularity that manifests itself as a supposedly physical universe, before contracting back to the eternal singularity.

Consciousness awakening to consciousness at rest.

Peace to you Gem.

Gem 07-10-2021 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
The eternal oscillating universe that expands with the Big Bang and disappears with the Big Crunch.

I think the scientific method has to be a bit clunky and mechanical (because it is physical measurement based), and will tend toward a succession of events, but this mostly reductionist framework leads to a necessary identity even if that is some sort of mathematical form - a conceptual cosmology which is at least as old as Plato.
Quote:

“Universe after universe..." Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122
Quote:

The eternal singularity that manifests itself as a supposedly physical universe, before contracting back to the eternal singularity.
It seems we will eventually get to the question of, is there substance or not? Returning to a 'singularity' seem to me to retain notions of substance whereas I prefer the no-substance idea such as the dependent origins in Buddhism. I like how that pertains to notions of self as a construct of thoughts and feelings, and not self as an eternal substance or identical identity.

It makes judgement unreasonable, so people do depraved things, but no one is there doing them, so it's just sensible to avoid such people, but unreasonable to make any value or worth judgments. That puts me at loggerheads with Christainity because despite 'shalt not judge' the religion itself is inherently judgmental, and that judgment is said to be true.

As you say, in Buddhism there are 'immutable laws', but they aren't deemed by God, and unlike Deistic religions, there is no judgmental entity. The laws of kamma express how volition arises from ignorance to generate rebirth, and how insight into the nature of things brings wisdom, and liberation from the kammic cycle. There is no Buddha-person or personal God to help you or save you, nor is there 'you' in any identical sense.

The Anointed 07-10-2021 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
As you say, in Buddhism there are 'immutable laws', but they aren't deemed by God, and unlike Deistic religions, there is no judgmental entity.


A rebirth, is to be born again as you were in the previous life cycle, but reincarnation is totally different, the immortal soul is given a new body in which to climb the ladder of evolution once again, the old body and the old mind are destroyed.

When an endless cycle of rebirths is referred to, do you believe that every person who dies is later reborn as they were in their previous life, or reincarnated as a different life form?

What happens to all those who at the close of each cycle of universal activity have not attained Moksha or Nirvana, according to your belief?

Peace Gem.

Gem 07-10-2021 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
Peace Gem.

In Buddhist philosophy, kamma is volition, and the incitement of volition is 'cause' of rebirth. It relates directly to 'craving' (desire and aversion) because the volition is incited instantly upon cravings, and all cravings are reactions to sensations. The reason we we react to them is we are ignorant as to the underlying nature of their 'impermanance'. We are deluded into believing feelings have endurance when in fact they are momentary. Every psychological reaction elicits self referential thought, me, my, mine, I; which give rise to the sense that 'all this' is happening to 'me'. Thus self is re-fabricated and perpetuated from the last moment to the next creating the illusion of myself as an enduring identical identity.

In the meditation it starts to be revealed that feelings are not enduring and at some point you are no longer affected by them, and reaction stops, so volition ceases to be generated. That's when the one you used to think was 'me' becomes exposed to full conscious awareness and you realise it is not me. We also notice how the one that pretends to be me is inherently depraved by nature, but by that stage one has no reaction to that and can observe the egocentric antics with complete neutrality - since that one aware is neutral by nature.

It is a very delicate balance, though, and that old 'me' has many tricks that work to distract you and get you lost in the reactivity that keeps us in delusion and bondage.

This has very deep moral implications in context with being depraved. We have to be quite acutely aware of how we react to things and what of sort of will (good will or ill will) such reactivity incites within ourselves, and thus we might understand 'just what we do', as opposed to 'know not what we do'.

Morpheus 07-10-2021 04:05 PM

Quote:

Gem-
We have to be quite acutely aware of how we react to things and what of sort of will (good will or ill will) such reactivity incites within ourselves.

Perhaps you may begin to understand "the sin of the world", Gem. And salvation.
?
We are the evolved animal/mammal, evolved in illusory time, (and space).
Which? The chief rebel instigated at the Fall, in Paradise.

Miss Hepburn 07-10-2021 04:13 PM

Everybody, gotta knock off bringing Buddhism into the Christianity thread or section.
Think it, don't post it.

Thank you

The Anointed 07-10-2021 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
It is a very delicate balance, though, and that old 'me' has many tricks that work to distract you and get you lost


You can say that again. So, let me repeat once more the question that I had put to you, which you, with your many tricks and ramblings have failed to address, and that question was; "What happens to all those who at the close of each cycle of universal activity have not attained Moksha or Nirvana, according to your belief?"

And let me here add, are they reborn in the next cycle of universal activity as the person that they were in their previous life, or reincarnated as another life form?

Peace Gem.

Gem 08-10-2021 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morpheus
Perhaps you may begin to understand "the sin of the world", Gem. And salvation.

What's 'sin of the world' about? I thought salvation was based on the story of Jesus coming back to save believers.
Quote:

We are the evolved animal/mammal, evolved in illusory time, (and space). Which? The chief rebel instigated at the Fall, in Paradise.
I really don't think anyone knows what 'chief rebel' is supposed to mean... are you using your own original terms which no one else knows?

Gem 08-10-2021 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
you, with your many tricks and ramblings

That's one of those of times I have to be wary of my reactions and the consequential volition I generate.
Quote:

"What happens to all those who at the close of each cycle of universal activity have not attained Moksha or Nirvana, according to your belief?"
The cycle is a reactive one within which a self-referential thought is perperpeted by the process of volition. If I react adversely, I generate ill will and hence become depraved. If we are not aware of that 'we know not what we do'. Hence we need to be aware of our reactivity and the sort of volition we generate. Then we 'know what we do'.

In the first place, your question assumes there is someone who reaches nirvana and/or is trapped in the reaction/action cycle, but the sense of there being someone is flawed. For as long as volition regenerates a self-impression it will seem as if there is continuity of self being affected by everything that happens, That which is affected has a reaction, which perpetuates the one affected, ans so reacts, perpetuates etc etc etc.

You stop, which means volition ceases. Christians would conceptualise that as surrendering one's own will to the will of God. Until such time, we remain ignorant in delusion, and continue reaction/volition/action over and again.

The Anointed 08-10-2021 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
That's one of those of times I have to be wary of my reactions and the consequential volition I generate.The cycle is a reactive one within which a self-referential thought is perperpeted by the process of volition. If I react adversely, I generate ill will and hence become depraved.

In other words you are afraid to speak the truth, and admit that according to your belief, reincarnation is not a rebirth of self, which is destroyed when the eternal soul is given a different body in the eternal cycle of reincarnations, in which new body the eternal soul develops a new self, a new mind/spirit, that in the next cycle may attain to Moksha or Nirvana.

The old self is not reborn, so what has become of it?

Peace.

Guillaume 08-10-2021 12:39 PM

This may help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Jainism
Quote:

Jains believe that karma is a physical substance that is everywhere in the universe. Karma particles are attracted to the soul by the actions of that soul. Karma particles are attracted when we do, think, or say things, when we kill something, when we lie, when we steal and so on.
So if your soul attracts karma, the re-birth will not erase all your past volition.
But I'm quite sure that the new self body mind will materialise karma in a different way each time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
Hence we need to be aware of our reactivity and the sort of volition we generate. Then we 'know what we do'.

That, I'm not sure.
If I tell you the famous "do not think of an elephant", you can't help thinking of it. That's why meditation is all about letting go of the thoughts. Letting go, not fighting, you can't push away your volition.

Gem 09-10-2021 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
The old self is not reborn, so what has become of it?Peace.

No one was actually being born and reborn. It's a reactive cycle which perpetuates a self impression. The problem is that sense of self is fundamentally depraved because it is nothing but wound up reactivity that assumes the position of me. 'Rebirth' pertains to the overall delusion, but when when you become aware of it, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Gem 09-10-2021 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume
If I tell you the famous "do not think of an elephant", you can't help thinking of it. That's why meditation is all about letting go of the thoughts. Letting go, not fighting, you can't push away your volition.

Indeed. Pushing away implies an aversion toward the thoughts, which has already incited the volition, and implies 'I' push away 'my' thoughts which are 'mine', thus regenerating the one pretending to be 'me'. As we see in this example, 'me' is a construct off psychological reactivity, and as such is pretty a pretty horrid concoction. In so saying, I wouldn;t want to generate distaste toward it, as that is more aversion upon aversion and a continuation of the same issue. It's a tricky, sticky situation.

Meditation is fundamentally the means by which the dillemma can be resolved, so to me it is a very particular thing. Most would say 'whatever works for you', but 'works' implies you get what you want which means desire is still an endemic factor.

I think meditation is about the truth. You examine to find out what is true, and the truth has nothing to do with what anyone wants, making any factor of desire futile. This means there is intention to 'see it as it is' without the volition to make it 'as I want it to be'.

People have argued with me saying the volition is to cease volition, but that's an infinite regression. It makes no sense, so its a terrible argument. The intent is to find out what's true, and as JK put it, "it is the truth that liberates; not your efforts to be free".

The Anointed 09-10-2021 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
No one was actually being born and reborn.


Let me repeat once again, "To be reborn in the next cycle of universal activity is not the same as being reincarnated in the next generation of the universe".

Do you believe that everyone in this cycle of universal activity will attain to Moksha=liberation, or Nirvana=Ultimate Liberation? Yes or no!

Gem 09-10-2021 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
Let me repeat once again, "To be reborn in the next cycle of universal activity is not the same as being reincarnated in the next generation of the universe".

I don't know anything about that.
Quote:

Do you believe that everyone in this cycle of universal activity will attain to Moksha=liberation, or Nirvana=Ultimate Liberation? Yes or no!
Well, the rebirth cycle only pertains to a psychological self which can't be liberated, and the one aware was never actually subject to rebirth cycles in the first place. It's a bit like the question, Do trolls always live under bridges? Yes or no! The question incorrectly assumes creatures that don't exist (apart from being fabricated in the mind). Same as the one who undergoes rebirth is a fabrication of the mind. Since the reborn isn't real, we can only speak of the process by which the delusion is perpetuated...

The Anointed 09-10-2021 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
I don't know anything about that. Well, the rebirth cycle only pertains to a psychological self which can't be liberated,


So, in reality, what you have said is that no person who has ever lived will attain to Moksha=liberation, or Nirvana=Ultimate Liberation?

Thank you Gem.

Gem 10-10-2021 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
So, in reality, what you have said is that no person who has ever lived will attain to Moksha=liberation, or Nirvana=Ultimate Liberation?

Yes. The person being reborn can't be liberated because it's a fabrication perpetuated by the reactive mind. I was just discussing the process by which that occurs since the will generated in that process pertains to depravity.

The Anointed 10-10-2021 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
Yes. The person being reborn can't be liberated because it's a fabrication perpetuated by the reactive mind. I was just discussing the process by which that occurs since the will generated in that process pertains to depravity.


If you must, then Please make a distinction between those who are reborn and those who are reincarnated?

As for your post, then you just keep believing that which is taught by the religious body you belong to, which beliefs do not conform to those of the followers of Christ, which beliefs are expressed on the Christian section of this forum.

As you have said Gem; "Seeing is believing" and we have seen the Lord God our saviour, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit in order to reveal himself to us and the AWESOME sacrifice that he makes for the sinful body of mankind in which he (The Son of Man) had developed. for all have sinned and all must pay the price for the sins committed while in the flesh.

Bye, Bye gem.

Native spirit 13-10-2021 12:35 AM

Please be mindful that everyone has their own Beliefs.there is nothing to say that any one is true anymore than the other.



Namaste

The Anointed 13-10-2021 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Native spirit
Please be mindful that everyone has their own Beliefs.there is nothing to say that any one is true anymore than the other.
Namaste


This is the Christian section of this forum, is it not?

Christians are those who believe the words of Christ and the Father who sent him, are they not?

Christians believe that the Holy Scriptures are the words of our Lord as recorded by his chosen scribes, do they not?

Are Christians permitted to defend their faith against non Christians in this Christian section, or not?

sky 13-10-2021 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
This is the Christian section of this forum, is it not?

Christians are those who believe the words of Christ and the Father who sent him, are they not?

Christians believe that the Holy Scriptures are the words of our Lord as recorded by his chosen scribes, do they not?

Are Christians permitted to defend their faith against non Christians in this Christian section, or not?


This is the Christianity Section.....
There are a Multitude of Different Denominations TA and not ALL believe Scriptures are the 'Words' of God.....

Gem 13-10-2021 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Anointed
If you must, then Please make a distinction between those who are reborn and those who are reincarnated?

It could be said the rebirth occurs from moment to moment whereas reincarnation refers to a succession of lifetimes, but it's the essentially same principle.

Quote:

As for your post, then you just keep believing that which is taught by the religious body you belong to, which beliefs do not conform to those of the followers of Christ, which beliefs are expressed on the Christian section of this forum.
I don't believe in reincarnation, but it might be true. It's besides the point anyway because the point addresses how reactivity and volition pertains to being depraved... regardless of religion.

The Anointed 13-10-2021 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sky123
This is the Christianity Section.....
There are a Multitude of Different Denominations TA and not ALL believe Scriptures are the 'Words' of God.....


All Christians claim to believe in Christ, otherwise they are not Christians. From where did those who call themselves Christians learn of Christ? What Christian denomination denies that Christ is their Saviour? How do those Christian denominations who see Christ as their saviour, claim that Christ was able to save them from the death penalty that was imposed on Adam and his seed?


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