Spiritual Forums - Should we even be spiritual while incarnated in the physis? And why do we incarnate?

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Originally Posted by Altair

I can relate to the idea as I've said this as many before me. Just an observation about it. Temporary happiness is additive one looks to be happy again. What does one do to achieve happiness, especially in regards to others. One wants it. What if one happiness takes away from another's happiness because one can't have enough of happiness. There is always cause and effect. Should one be mindful of it. What if a person creates negativity to be happy seeking the pleasure of the release of the chemical dopamine to get that energy. I'm just wondering what are the limits which decrease being happy.

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Originally Posted by BigJohn

You quoted John 10:38.

Did you realize the first Greek word translated as Father is not the same Greek word also translated as Father. They are 2 separate, different words. I suspect this might be one of many verses that were not translated properly. Just my opinion, check it out yourself if you want to.

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Originally Posted by lemex

Please explain the meaning then.

A common theme found in the PREFACE of older Bibles goes something like this "Translated according to the
translators belief system". If you look in Greek, the two words translated into English are 2 different words.

To try to ascertain exactly what the Apostle John meant, I would have to do a considerable amount of work.

If you look at Genesis 1:1, just that verse in of itself, I have probably enough material that I could write a book just on that.

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Originally Posted by lemex

Yeah, we want more and more. But you know what.. spirituality is not that different. When people experience or describe their pleasant feelings and experiences they also want it again and again. Looking for aid, guru's, growth. They want more and more, or go 'deeper'. Or we could look at the heavy focus on ''the afterlife'' in so many threads. That too is a desire.. to want to live a nice life after death, to meet loved ones, etc. All of that is the pursuit of pleasure, being in nice places, with nice people. Spirituality is another chase (although it could be argued it is more refined). Spirituality, like so many other pursuits and interests, lay bear the reality that human beings are pleasure seekers.

So any time we talk down 'the worldly' pleasure and enjoyment I'm not sure if we have thought it through well enough. Some may claim spiritual practice is superior, but I beg to differ. It can be, it doesn't have to be. To me, spending an hour at the gym does more for my well being than an hour of thoughtless meditation (supposedly 'spiritual')... :wink:

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Originally Posted by Altair

How do you know this was your intention..?

I haven't found an answer that makes sense, most explanations mention 'past lives' but then most people don't have past life memories.

If there is reincarnation, then it has to be with intention. I can’t prove it objectively but I myself found the proof when I observed the course of my own life. Things that happen follow a specific plan. My life is an endless stream of s**t but I see how I develop through these agonizing experiences. And the profit I gain is exactly what I, not only as a soul but also as a human being, want.

I know that I’m a soul enwrapped into a physical body because I made experiences where I experienced myself as an infinite structure of energy that exists independent of the physical body. (It is possible to discern brain hallucinations from real spiritual experiences.)

If we accept the notion that we are immaterial souls, a more objective argument for intentional life could be seen in the fact that our soul is connected to the physical body whose brain houses 80 billions of neurons. This alignment requires a complex, intelligent and therefore deliberate binding-mechanism. Hardly can I imagine this binding to appear coincidentally. Can you?

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Originally Posted by iamthat

The Soul or consciousness seeks self-expression. The spiritual life is the process of identifying with consciousness so that consciousness can express itself through the physical body via the personality.

I think you have a restricted view on incarnation, derived form a religion that leads people astray. Everything human beings do is purposeful and in alignment with their higher-selves. One reason why we incarnate is to increase our ability to experience worldly pleasure and to develop and discover new forms of worldly happiness.

The global trend is toward western lifestyle. Souls incarnate in western countries, so of course, they want to make western experiences. So of course, this kind of living is most rewarding for our souls and our development. Our souls (or we as souls) want to experience exactly what we experience.

The circumstances we incarnate ourselves aren’t random! They are chosen wisely. So, if we live in a world that provides all kinds of worldly amusements and that constantly expands these kinds of opportunities, then experiencing materialistic pleasure has to be significant to our souls.

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Originally Posted by MAYA EL

you are here to gain understanding to be an individual to make your understanding of life is unique to you which is the opposite of the cancerous concept going around where we need to "all become one" which is spiritual suicide.

I agree. The “we are or should be all one”-way-of-thinking is cancer. Although I’m sure that we do re-incarnate, in contrast to your assumption, I also agree that striving for individualism is one of the central purposes of our lives.

Our origin has been a state of oneness but in the course of evolution all-that-is learned to fragment itself into individual parts. We came from oneness but we develop toward individuality. The higher the developmental level of an individual soul the higher his level of individuality.

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Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

Deliberately incarnate, are you sure? .

Yes.

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Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

Because I've been having doubts. If so, then I think we should try and live in harmony with the planet. Not trash and over consume. Doesn't make sense to destroy it.

We are not here for just one reason but for two:
(1) to experience happiness
(2) to transform and develop in order to increase our ability to experience even more happiness in upcoming lives.

The latter is the unpleasant – mostly. It isn’t about experiencing the perfect world. It’s about experiencing the imperfect in order to become able to see and appreciate the perfect.

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Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

If we are here to learn and develop then of course meditation and the likes all helps with being and living from hopefully a more positive and productive place. To spend vast amounts of time doing this or talking about doing it, then that takes us away from the ground work. After all that's what we're here for supposedly.

Although I believe that meditation lead to certain kinds of development, I don’t see how. But meditation is just one way to develop. I think more fruitful are other kinds of activities. In general everything that people do brings development in its train. The most intense forms of development must occur through experiences that many people make although they are unpleasant.

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Originally Posted by inavalan

Great questions!
I'm tempted to reply to your and my questions, and explain what answers I found, and how I found them, but at the same time I'm reluctant to do it, because nobody will benefit from this, as everybody has their minds already made up. In the worst case I might get misinterpreted, and /or get some rude replies.

Take a risk

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Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Here is the relevance of understanding the nature of happiness from worldly pleasures. It's temporary / ephemeral . In order to have long lasting happiness, spiritual journey which regulates worldly pleasures is required.

It doesn’t matter if worldly pleasures are temporal because there are so many of them. If one pleasure ends another will follow. Many people lead a life of fulfilment without spirituality.

I can imagine that we can experience kinds of happiness that are more intense in the beyond. But I think one reason why we incarnate is to increase our ability to experience worldly pleasure and to develop and discover new forms of worldly happiness.

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Originally Posted by Siemens

We are souls that deliberately incarnated on this planet to make experiences that are possible only in the physis. Does it even make sense to lead a spiritual life, focus on spiritual themes, and practice spiritual techniques like meditation, when we, as souls, incarnated in the physis with the intention to experience the physis? Shouldn’t we rather be focused on material things?

Aren’t these spiritual activities things that we could do when we are dead and in the beyond? I mean, for what reason did we incarnate in the physis when we then orient ourselves back toward the non-physis were we actually came from?

Since we can be spiritual when we are in the beyond, wouldn’t it be much more plausible to utilize the material life for material experiences? Shouldn’t we here on earth focus on consumerism, worldly pleasure, ego, individualism, and occupational success - or why do we even incarnate?

Death is life. We are part of the cycles of change and new creations. So everything is here and now if you choose it. It’s your choice.

Humans in the seperate views forget the universe is an interconnected working system that we are a part of and made up the same way.

The more you understand who and what you are the more you can live connected and more fully to you and life in ways your more deeply enriched.

Surface stuff can bring you happiness and the life experience has many varied experiences to enjoy, whether your spiritual or not.
People choose and more choices shows more..

It’s in the more you often find what’s really lacking..

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Originally Posted by Altair

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Disagree. Sounds like rubbish to me. There are many moments in our life, all fleeting, all temporary, and yet good memories are kept. Many activities make people happy, as do the people in our lives. Many of them are temporary, yes, but to suggest that people cannot find happiness and would only able to find it in something eternal is rather fundamentalist. What's still stopping you from living in a monastery and eschew the world? Yours is a very sober and depressing world view.

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Being obsessed with spirituality at the cost of worldly goals, desires, and pleasures isn't helpful and can make people forget what is important in life. I know that from experience and I've heard other people in my yoga group say the same. It's important to stay grounded, and yes, that includes embracing the world.

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Iamthat mentions how certain things don't bring people happiness. How does he know? He doesn't. It's a common theme in spiritual traditions where the idea is that people can only be 'happy' if they're poor, miserable sobs and feel ''great'' talking down on others having temporary enjoyment. Good if that works for some people, but it doesn't for everyone. Okay?

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This idea that happiness can't be found in the worldly things and in pleasure, because they are 'temporary' is rather problematic, but a view that returns in many spiritual traditions. Many of the things we enjoy are temporary, as are loved ones. I think we may forget anti-pleasure and non-attachment teachings were made and are upheld by ascetics and monks, and are not that relevant for most of us. Abandoning the worldly, eschewing pleasures, and all things of ''a temporary nature'' does not necessarily bring one happiness. Such an anti-world view can work for genuine ascetics and monks, but should IMO be met with caution by most spiritually interested people.

Did I say that people can only be happy if they are poor?

Did I say that people should not have temporary enjoyment?

I did say "We can enjoy the material world and all that is has to offer..." - nothing sobering or depressing about that. I do enjoy my material existence - it is very pleasant and easy and comfortable. I have no worldly goals but I happen to have enough wealth to not have to work, and I enjoy my wealth. I am very grateful for all my blessings. But I am aware that it is only temporary, and one day I will leave it all behind.

The original topic was why bother being spiritual - why not just embrace the material while in the physical body? Maybe the real question is, can someone who knows only the material world be genuinely happy and fulfilled every day? If so, then great. To me, it seems as if any happiness or fulfilment based on material circumstances is somewhat precarious. Whereas happiness and fulfilment which arises from within does not depend on anything external. Hence I advocate the spiritual path of being in the world but not of it.

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siemens

It doesn’t matter if worldly pleasures are temporal because there are so many of them. If one pleasure ends another will follow. Many people lead a life of fulfilment without spirituality.

And yet so few people seem to be genuinely permanently happy or fulfilled.

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Conversely, iamthat's comments do assume, and rightly so because of the context in which they are made, that spiritual constructs, tenets, and philosophy come to bear on the particular discussion brought up by the OP. In spiritual circles which are broad and deep, going back hundreds and even thousands of years many of these items are considered basic, first steps, standard fare, and not controversial at all. On a spiritual website this would be accepted as a starting point of discussion - not relegated to an issue of personal taste, preference or aversion as to whether a respondent wants to undertake any spiritual practice - and if they don't - said discussion becomes somehow inappropriate which is the direction your comments seem to go in (but correct me if I'm wrong on that).

Just some things to consider fwiw.

~ J

Agree. This is a spiritual forum. The first step on the spiritual journey is to look within.

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair

iamthat just says what Buddha did

And Buddha’s followers were noted as some of the happiest people on Earth.

Fundamentalist is not what we are seeing - this is a spiritual forum and this is a reality anyone can see in their own lives; your use of the word fundamentalist here is a way of discrediting a perspective you can’t see because you despise spiritualists and imagine that spirituality means turning from the world.

In fact, imv, only spiritual people - genuinely realised spiritual people - can truly help this world in the deepest way possible.

Gratitude might be in order, instead of condescension

JL