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Not at all. |
You surely had me fooled. |
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:biggrin: As long as I'm not fooled.... |
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Well said. The “Hand of God” and the “Heavenly Father” are two completely different understandings. Exodus 4:1-7 John 8:54-55 KJV 54*Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is MY FATHER that honoureth me; of whom YE SAY THAT HE IS YOUR GOD: 55*Yet YE HAVE NOT KNOWN HIM; but I know him: JOHN 8:40 40*But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. |
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Please show me from the scripture sited what the "Hand of God" is and what is the "Heavenly Father". Neither expression is found in the cited scripture. The cited scripture is" Exodus 4:1 Then Moses answered, “But behold, they will not believe me or listen to my voice, for they will say, ‘The Lord did not appear to you.’” 2 The Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” He said, “A staff.” 3 And he said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent, and Moses ran from it. 4 But the Lord said to Moses, “Put out your hand and catch it by the tail”—so he put out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand— 5 “that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.” 6 Again, the Lord said to him, “Put your hand inside your cloak.”[a] And he put his hand inside his cloak, and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous[b] like snow. 7 Then God said, “Put your hand back inside your cloak.” So he put his hand back inside his cloak, and when he took it out, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh. |
An examination of the Old Testament does have some fantastic laws such as the Jubilee and the Golden Jubilee. Even today, no government or religion has been able to equal let alone surpass those laws. Another aspect of the Old Testament is that God's people wrote not only of their great deeds but also of their mistakes. This took a certain amount of humility. |
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I suspect why so many people have animosity toward the Old Testament might be because they never really studied it. |
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I always thought Lots wife got a bad rap. That whole story has a weird flavor to it. Lot offers his virgin daughters to the men of the city that were banging on his door to sleep with the 2 angels inside and then Lots wife gets turn to salt for looking back when the city is being destroyed and then the 2 virgin daughters sleep with their Father and have kids to continue the family line.:confused: WOW! what a story. Jesus also says to remember Lots wife. She never does get a name. lot's name means (veil or covering). _________________ |
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Edith in some Jewish Communities. There are definitely some ridiculous verses to be found in the OT, God must have also had a sense of humour :D |
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or God invented humour? |
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Acts 2:15. “These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning.” Deuteronomy 23:2. "No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may be admitted into the community of the LORD." Proverbs 11.22. “Like a gold ring in a pig’s snout is a beautiful woman who shows no discretion.” :D |
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I could address this account............... but with some having acrimony toward Judaism and Christianity, I prefer relating a modern day account. I live in one city and another city exist within that city. One time, that other city was a fun place for some people and for other people, was a place to avoid. The city got over run with people some claim were really nice people whereas others claimed they were drug dealers, prostitutes, etc. Things got so bad, that instead of somebody getting shot over the weekend, it escalated to somebody or somebodies getting killed. One day I turned on the TV which claimed multiple police agencies were involved in 'cleaning' up that city. I found that hard to believe so I went and looked for myself. There were police on foot, on bicycles, on motorcycles, in cars, in SUVs and a helicopter in the air. The police were from both cities, the county, the State and probably from the Border Patrol. Each block in that city had at least 1 person being questioned. Since then, murders in that city are almost non-existent. Rarely do you see a prostitute soliciting on the streets or somebody selling drugs on the street any more. Some people claim what happened to that city was terrible whereas others claim is was about time. |
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Sounds pretty bad especially for Peter who spoke these words. This account, when read in its entirety, makes perfect sense. The account reads: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ |
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The cited verse is actually Deuteronomy 23:1. |
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This scripture provides a powerful punch when displayed with surrounding scriptures.
16 A kindhearted woman gains honor, but ruthless men gain only wealth. 17 Those who are kind benefit themselves, but the cruel bring ruin on themselves. 18 A wicked person earns deceptive wages, but the one who sows righteousness reaps a sure reward. 19 Truly the righteous attain life, but whoever pursues evil finds death. 20 The Lord detests those whose hearts are perverse, but he delights in those whose ways are blameless. 21 Be sure of this: The wicked will not go unpunished, but those who are righteous will go free. 22 Like a gold ring in a pig’s snout is a beautiful woman who shows no discretion. 23 The desire of the righteous ends only in good, but the hope of the wicked only in wrath. 24 One person gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty. 25 A generous person will prosper; whoever refreshes others will be refreshed. |
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It actually depends on which Bible you read :smile: 'No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may be admitted into the community of the Lord. (Deuteronomy 23:2 NAB) ' is one example.... |
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Deuteronomy 23:1-3 from New American Bible (NAB) 1 A man shall not marry his father’s wife,* nor shall he dishonor his father’s bed. Membership in the Assembly. 2 No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may come into the assembly of the LORD. 3 No one born of an illicit union may come into the assembly of the LORD, nor any descendant of such even to the tenth generation may come into the assembly of the LORD. |
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Exactly, as I pointed out :smile: |
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I think you just want to point out that some parts of the Bible are actually the interpretations of the Creator through the eyes of man, and I agree, but know this, there was a time and a place for those "laws", they are not universal otherwise we would find ourselves with contradictions.I always use Christ's words as the standard when reading the Bible. I could not read those violent parts of the Bible, it was always hard for me, even in the case that those people that were "punished" were really evil, I just can't... I am more focused on love and forgiveness than punishment... Those old times were really awful for humanity, people were really primitive and surviving was their main goal in life. |
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' but know this, there was a time and a place for those "laws". Sorry but there is NEVER a time or place for violence even if you think there was. Where is the time and place for this ? ' Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks ' One verse amongst thousands that are abhorrent . |
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I was not talking about the violence.. I was referring to those "laws" that don't make sense... that a man that had his... crushed should not be welcomed... and so on. :smile: I gave my opinion about those violent parts of the Bible, I don't focus on them. You always get a wrong idea about my messages, it's quite funny :)) |
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I know exactly what you meant, it's written in your Post :smile: The Laws which you said had ' A time and place ' are Violent/Cruel and have no place at no time.... |
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You see what you want to see, that's not all people do? We see and hear what we want in order for us to enforce our convictions upon a certain thing that we believe as being true or false. The violence that you talk about has been long gone, the violence in christianity, created by man, has also been long gone, if you are so eager to disapprove religion, you should focus on the muslim religion, which is the actual cancer for humanity. If week keep clinging to the past, we will not be present here and now where the actual things are happening. I know that the Creator is pure love and this is all I need to know, to me, the violence in the Bible is inexplicable and I am not focusing on it. |
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Your story makes perfect sense to me. I think Lot's wife being turned to a pillar of salt has meaning that I cannot see because it must have a regional meaning from around the Dead sea or from that time period or something. |
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Some of the violence from the past has not gone, that's the problem you see. It's sometimes lurking under the surface. I don't focus on it personally but I feel sad for some who do and have to through their upbringing / education / families etc:. |
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I understand you and I know that you are talking from your own experience and that you do not want others to experience something like this.Forcing religion on people is bad, forcing religion on children is even worse... |
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In the example I gave, if some 'innocent' people where on the street when this happened, is it possible some of the 'innocent' would have been detained and possibly arrested? As for Lot's wife, her heart exposed her to who she really was: She looked back. |
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No TM I am definitely not referring to my personal experiences :smile: |
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Are you confusing violence with rules and/or how Christian faiths interact with various governments? |
Here is a quote from the Midrash that puts a better light on it.
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Also the Midrash states: "She sinned with salt, and she was punished with salt." |
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The verse you cited is Psalms 137:9. This song was one of many songs the Jews sung while in their Babylonian diaspora. In Revelation, the afflictions levied upon the Jews while in exile resonate repeatedly in that book as Babylon and her variants are mentioned. Reading the adjoining scriptures, we can get a better understanding as to what is going on. Psalm 137 1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. 2 There on the poplars we hung our harps, 3 for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” 4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land? 5 If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. 6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy. 7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!” 8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. 9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. |
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In verse 9, who is the "one who seizes your infants"? Is it God? No! It is a composite group lead by Cyrus the Great who destroyed Babylon and freed the Jew. How this could possibly be confused with God is something I can not understand. |
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Why would this bother somebody of another religion? Or has the person never got healed and moved on? |
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I've no idea.... |
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What violence 'has not gone'? |
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The violence that lingers... |
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If the violence hasn't gone then it still remains.... |
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If the violence never existed, it is a moot issue. |
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If it didn't/doesn't exist we wouldn't be talking about it :biggrin: |
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