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-   -   Why I'm not a Taoist (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115826)

FallingLeaves 05-08-2017 07:51 PM

Why I'm not a Taoist
 
well the TTC speaks much truth, but isn't the answer to everything.

For example there is this well known saying:

those who know don't speak
and those who speak don't know


it actually makes a lot of sense... because words are only useful in the context of shared experience. Although it isn't obvious to those who don't know, those who do know have had experiences that aren't shared by those who don't. Sometimes in a very unusual way. So any words those who do know say will be taken in the context of someone who only knows the normal experiences shared by people at large. Which is to say out of the context those who do know meant them in.

But even people who do have 'unusual' experiences often still fall into the trap of thinking there isn't more than what they have already seen... in that sense they don't really know either. Even though they may have advanced knowledge, it doesn't mean they actually know.

Those who don't know think they know what is said by those who do know because after all they were taught in school what all the words mean...

but for those who do know it is obvious that saying words in light of any 'extra' experiences does not in fact help impart any 'extra' truth they see to those who haven't actually accepted the experiences. In fact those who do know understand clearly that bandying such words about will actually have the opposite effect than the one desired... often bringing about confusion rather than clarity.

But this is lost on those who don't know because they simply don't have the experience to be able to discern such things. And don't know they don't have the experience. And usually think they do anyway. Hence the confusion...

So, for those who know, and value themselves and others and the truth, it becomes very practical to talk of just shutting up.

However, all this belies a fundamental fact of life: people need to commune with each other as much as they need air, water, or food. While it may be possible to use something like the fact that we also love to reach 'goals' to reach for the 'goal' that it is in the best interests of all simply to shut up... this kind of thing doesn't work forever. Sometimes, the diver who is holding his breath has to come up for air.

And there is another issue... someone some of us have heard of mentioned that in throwing seeds around, some of them will land on fertile ground. Which is to say, even though it may seem that one cannot reasonably expect the water in a river to run upstream, still, to unequivocally say no seed dropped will ever bear fruit may be missing an important point about life.

Now whether aspects of whatever fruit does grow can be controlled in some desired way is another issue entirely, as seeds don't usually ask to be told how to grow.

But as far as the point of being mean and causing confusion by not shutting up: those on the path may initially be confused, but will eventually have a chance to figure it out. For some of us, too much of this experience is so unlikeable we are constantly seeking for something better and just won't accept this horror forever.

But those who aren't on the path need to continue to be confused as ordained as that is in everyone's best interests anyway. Saying words doesn't really change their fate either way unless they suddenly decide to quit revering what they revere. That is their choice not mine.

Each has their own choice how to relate after all.

And how is one person sitting there controlling the flow of the waters going to really resolve anything? If it has never worked in the past how is it going to work now? In my mind it is better to just let the rivers run where they may even if it leads to something undesirable like not being taken seriously.

Honestly though, being taken seriously is a real burden anyway :smile:

But, all that said, it can still be beneficial to just shut up sometimes.

soul.cimmerian 18-08-2017 10:24 AM

Well I enjoyed reading your post. I've fallen into the trap you mentioned. It is frustrating.

FallingLeaves 21-08-2017 02:19 PM

it is really difficult keeping open to possibilities even when you have some clue about how to look at the depth of what you don't know... I imagine it is much harder if you understand there is a problem but don't even know where to look to see 'more'. But you at least have the concept that maybe... which is a better position than some are in. :smile:

soul.cimmerian 21-08-2017 11:27 PM

Edited because my comment didn't make sense after I read it the second time. lol Anyways I'm stuck on a loop of "maybe's" but you're right it is better this way. :)

FallingLeaves 24-08-2017 11:50 AM

hehehe you sound like me. after a wall of maybes though i eventually start thinking of something else... that is once I get past the hope... the hope is mean because it always gets dashed. Always so frustrating.

markings 24-08-2017 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
well the TTC speaks much truth, but isn't the answer to everything.

For example there is this well known saying:

those who know don't speak
and those who speak don't know

[snip ... a lot]
But, all that said, it can still be beneficial to just shut up sometimes.

There is nothing mysterious about the quoted words of the TTC.
You said a lot, but to what end? You could have taken your advice stated in the last sentence.

soul.cimmerian 24-08-2017 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
after a wall of maybes though i eventually start thinking of something else...

Some of us can't turn our minds off. :laughing6:

Don't be disheartened though. I think we are supposed to say certain words that others need to hear, like signs.

FallingLeaves 25-08-2017 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markings
There is nothing mysterious about the quoted words of the TTC.
You said a lot, but to what end? You could have taken your advice stated in the last sentence.


yes i could have. aren't I a terrible person for not doing so?

markings 25-08-2017 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
yes i could have. aren't I a terrible person for not doing so?

And I am a terrible person for pointing this out.

Seriously though, your analysis talks about the potential to generate confusion and the practical thing of shutting up to avoid it. Sure enough many teachers should do that - and unfortunately don't, at least until they have thought about it in some depth.

But to me this is surprising when already Nagarjuna (c. 150 – c. 250 CE) and more recently Douglas Harding (1909 – 2007) with his 'Headless Way' provide clear hints and answers how one prevents the arising of confusion when confronted with texts such as the TTC and many others.
It seems inconceivable that many teachers do no know about this, which leaves me to conclude that they want to confuse the people to leave them ignorant.

Who would do something like that? Well, one of the charges leveled against Meister Eckhart (1260-1328) by the Church was that he taught the people some real stuff. Anybody who has read some of his sermons can attest to him being a true teacher of truth, something that eventually moved the Church to label him a heretic. I have no doubt that the Church's attitude continues to persist in all kind of quarters.

FallingLeaves 26-08-2017 12:32 AM

It is not up to me to tell you how not to be confused. That is something you can only do for yourself.

If you want to run from confusion be my guest, that is as good an answer as any I suppose.


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