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ImthatIm 27-01-2021 07:36 PM

I have a goal of cutting a trail down a hundred foot steep almost cliffside.
This should give me a trail down to a river.
If all goes well and it is doable I may find a spot to put up a lodge.

sentient 29-01-2021 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Your two mind-sets picture reminded me where my thinking was at.

I had heard it told that the pilgrims were taught how to farm/cultivate
by using Native agriculture, especially the Three sisters system.
Corn/Squash/Beans.

So a hunter gather society teaching an agricultural/industrial society to survive by farming.
What?


Sorry ImthatIm for the late reply. Have been having a lot on my plate to deal with of late.

*

I know I am terribly biased in my mind-set.
But then again being over 80% (82-86%) hunter-gatherer still ... genetically – well, what can one expect. ….

There were no massacres as far as I am aware of when the Near Eastern agriculturalists came to Europe, it just meant the loss of wildlife habitat, the big game to hunt plus the large predators, so the hunter-gatherers moved further and further up North until we ended up near or in the Arctic Circle.

What you were describing there ImthatIm (I trust) was the situation like in Lithuania. Agriculture was adopted, but with the hunter-gatherer worldview values (though I don’t think Lithuanians were ‘shamanic’ … as they lack Siberian ancestry and influence).

What Oren Lyons said at the end of his long video about ‘planting ceremony’ and the “Leader of the Fruit” made me smile.

The way the white reindeer is a manifestation of the reindeer deity, people growing turnips had a turnip deity.
Quote:

Äkräs was the god of fertility in Karelian mythology. He was also the god of turnip and the protector of beans, peas, cabbage, flax, and hemp. When the turnip took a form like a 'Siamese twin' it was Holy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
So me thinks to just separate the two is not so simple.
Me thinks the mind sets are:
1. Receiving in Thanksgiving from Earth/Grandmother living in balance with Her.(Ours)Mitakuye Oyasin
2. Taking from Earth/dirt as a consumer and conqueror, seeing the Earth as something to subdue.(Mine) My God given right to Takeey and conquer in the Name of the Lord. Foolishness.

P.S. And the Bear probably taught the three sister method to the people.
Bear is the Chief teacher of the Plants and Herbal Medicines. eh?


Of course there is always overlap but still, I see those 3 - the hunter-gatherer, the agriculturalists and the steppe-pastoralists as having distinctly different worldviews.

Hunter gatherer mind-set is as though still living in the womb of creation i.e. nondual state (and the spirituality that goes with it).

Agriculturalist start ‘ordering the landscape’ in dual terms i.e. they had a ‘fall from nonduality’ … have Pegan priests whatnot …

Animal herders … at least if one herded camels, one would not lose one's sense of humour …

I guess this is why ‘Indo-Europeans’ love the Injun warrior on horse stereotype, the Comanche image and hate Genghis Khan who came a bit too close for comfort.
(Well, I don’t understand this kind of - what I see as a double standard).
Nor do I understand this selective blindness as Vikings here are not mentioned:
https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-ancient-dna/

I remember enjoying Joseph Campbells talks, so I dug one up again, who can describe this herder mentality better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPh4dHDmx0

Trying to keep links to minimum. Sorry Native Spirit.

*

sentient 29-01-2021 07:54 PM

Continued ...

Farming and animal husbandry doesn’t go hand in hand with a totemic system.
Similar to what Oren Lyons said, if you are/have a bear or a wolf as your totem – you are responsible for that animal’s wellbeing.
If they go extinct – you go extinct.
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...80&postcount=9

I do understand the Amerind sarcasm about the ‘invaders’ or ‘whites’ … whatever – desire to now get some cool Native American Totems.
But, by the same token I really did not appreciate the Amerind ‘educators’ ridicule about our totemic beliefs. Our Totemic Ancestry, because Europeans do/did not have totems – right?
Imo. these “educators” about “cultural appropriation” really should go ‘n’ educate themselves first.

*

Even though 'totemism' is no longer practiced, it is interesting how the sense of it still lingers on, plus it has also been interesting to watch what happens to some people (who have been cut off from their culture) … when they do meet a genuine Spiritual Elder.

If they recognize the nondual ‘connection’ – it only takes 5min. to a day for all of it to start ‘coming back’ to them. It is like lighting up some ancient spiritual neural pathways.

In general, an Indo-European does not have those innate Aboriginal ‘neural pathway energy patterns’ how could he or she?!
His/her ‘neural pathway energy pattern' is to externally imitate and doesn’t really understand the difference:
https://bluejayblog.files.wordpress....pg?w=402&h=598

Which of course doesn’t mean those ‘neural pathways’ cannot be learned/developed in time if one integrates into indig. tribe/society etc.

But when the ‘enrolled indigenous’ themselves no longer recognize the difference either – this starts to become a worry.

*

ImthatIm 29-01-2021 07:59 PM

Quote:

Sorry ImthatIm for the late reply. Have been having a lot on my plate to deal with of late.

No worries. I hope to have a lot of goodies on my plate come Spring.


Quote:

What you were describing there ImthatIm (I trust) was the situation like in Lithuania. Agriculture was adopted, but with the hunter-gatherer worldview values (though I don’t think Lithuanians were ‘shamanic’ … as they lack Siberian ancestry and influence).


I would not really trust anything I type.I am unsure how to formulate my
mind pictures into words well. Writing has always been difficult for me.
I just hope that I can get a snippet of the essence and picture across.
Many things I write read like a piece of Swiss cheese. LOL


I don't have a vast knowledge of the topic on hunter vs. farmer, just an opinion on what I have observed and heard in life.I know nothing of Lithuania.


I'll write more later after I view Oren again and view your links.

sentient 29-01-2021 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

I don't have a vast knowledge of the topic on hunter vs. farmer, just an opinion on what I have observed and heard in life.I know nothing of Lithuania.

Well ... Indigenous Europeans and all that ...

You speak your truth – this is good.
You are not here claiming totemic-hunter-gatherer ancestry either, European or Amerind.
Nor do I see your avatar as you promoting yourself, but promoting Amerind Spirituality in general which you do honour and respect.

All good!

*

ImthatIm 30-01-2021 11:40 AM

sentient

Quote:

What Oren Lyons said at the end of his long video about ‘planting ceremony’ and the “Leader of the Fruit” made me smile.


Ah yeah, ceremony, Strawberry ceremony,corn ceremony.
Yeah, here with my wife's people we do berry ceremonies and
Salmon ceremony.Root ceremony. Cedar tree ceremony.
Bear ceremony, and other Spring ceremonies.


Though, we sadly are a shrinking group.


Even when gathering, we identify the Eldest plant relative
(we see plants as relatives) and ask permission before harvesting and
offer gifts, mainly tobacco.We especially ask that the Spirit of
that plant help us, along with the physical part for nourishment.


We don't just expect our plants to just be on shelves.
Life deserves more respect then that.



I should add, that my wife spent 3 months living with the clan Mothers
in Onondaga and she knows Oren.

ImthatIm 30-01-2021 12:22 PM

sentient

Joseph Campbell.
I love listening to him, and always have.


Listening to him, brought to light another thing.
The Land/environment dictates the systems of survival and the humans
are adaptable.
I also see humans also as opportunists, which can be good or bad.


Lakota's and others domesticated both dogs and later horses.

ImthatIm 30-01-2021 12:44 PM

sentient
I can see/witness hunter-gather society being replaced with the casino-check system
of survival in 1 or 2 generations.
A grandfather may be on the river and in the woods and sons or grandsons
could care less.They don't have to, because they know the easier system I call the
casino-check system.:icon_frown:

ImthatIm 30-01-2021 02:04 PM

sentient

or anyone interested.
Here is another teacher, one I can understand.
The way he talks is what I am use to.
Talking of Chanunpa, sundance, Redroad, Vision quest.
The Purification (sweat) lodge, which he does not
mention but it is a part of all he was talking about.


It makes me happy to hear these words from him.
18:11 mins. long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylxuYeQRSh8

sentient 31-01-2021 10:14 AM

I remember this and it made a big impression on me at the time about respecting Native Americans as defenders of Indigenous peoples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNMEbzm4WM

Of course my naiveté there was in for a rude awakening later on, BUT the more I listen to him, the more I really respect him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GpIkrqOlHA

I can’t picture him allowing himself to be seen/regarded as a pope-like-figure among the injuns and then cashing in on the “white guilt” & receiving personal donations from people … from nations who formerly have been the oppressors of their own indigenous peoples …. as if these donations to injun-like-pope-figurehead would somehow absolve, grant release these former oppressors of their ‘sins’.

Just saying.

To my mind he speaks ‘indigeousness’ with genuine integrity that resonates.

*

sentient 31-01-2021 10:59 AM

From my favourite ‘Strayan’ cartoonist Leunig:
https://neighbourhoodpaper.com/wp-co...ed-768x529.jpg

'Our' old - still good as new view:


*

sentient 31-01-2021 10:53 PM

Day before yesterday - saw a beautiful tribal tattoo on a beautiful young PNG woman.
I so love the look of Polynesian/Melanesian tattoos and feel proud for them for continuing with the tradition.

Made me think though – if I had a tattoo – what would it be?

a Swastika.
Our swastikas never were an Aryan-Nazi-white-supremacy symbol, but this:
https://hridayaravinde.files.wordpre...jpg.png?w=1140

The Sky Nail Pole Star and the rotational movement around this Axis Mundi – the World Pole.

*

.aaaand a Southern Cross tattoo:


*

sentient 31-01-2021 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
I can see/witness hunter-gather society being replaced with the casino-check system
of survival in 1 or 2 generations.
A grandfather may be on the river and in the woods and sons or grandsons
could care less.They don't have to, because they know the easier system I call the
casino-check system.:icon_frown:

I hear your frustration – and if one is into the survival and the revival of indigenous spirituality – this becomes so disappointing:
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/pub...of% 20America.
^
Besides, the writer of that article is said to have falsely claimed Native American ancestry (cultural appropriation), which led to his being fired from the university. Sheeesh!
How blooming frustrating!

When “Indigenousness” itself becomes a commodity – something one can exploit and cash in on, one can expect turf wars …

:confused2:

ImthatIm 01-02-2021 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentient
From my favourite ‘Strayan’ cartoonist Leunig:
https://neighbourhoodpaper.com/wp-co...ed-768x529.jpg

'Our' old - still good as new view:

LOL, your cartoon got me. I fell for for it. Good one.

Your picture makes good sense until I see the thumb tack and modern looking pole.

ImthatIm 01-02-2021 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentient
I hear your frustration – and if one is into the survival and the revival of indigenous spirituality – this becomes so disappointing:
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/pub...of% 20America.
^
Besides, the writer of that article is said to have falsely claimed Native American ancestry (cultural appropriation), which led to his being fired from the university. Sheeesh!
How blooming frustrating!

When “Indigenousness” itself becomes a commodity – something one can exploit and cash in on, one can expect turf wars …

:confused2:





Yes, I do know more than I care to on this stuff.
These battles have all kinds of extremes and gray areas.
It put's a stop to the true Spiritual principles IMO.
Oh well. Everyone camps up and sharpens their opinions and
does what they think is best. This is one reason I backed off
traveling to help out as much.I stick around home do what I can
and maintain my guest role. There is fighting and bickering all over.
Nothing new. Some justified some not, but who am I to judge.


Though I do examine the attitudes stirring the fight.
I could have stayed in the bars if I wanted to fight around.
You would not imagine or maybe you would IDK, the amount
of times that we were dragged into fights and arguments
over pride and rights and mere ego wars.
I've tried to stay away from these subjects because they are not pleasant
but they are a reality.


I will always pray and maintain my right to pray and help whom
I see fit. I've already made my commitments and I belong in a certain camp
on these issues.
Most people are really not to serious on their position when it comes
down to it. They just like spitting words out so people will react.
They rarely want to throw down over their position.
'Throwing down' is a spiritual term in my book.LOL


I do or did know or know about people in your article. You've touched close to home( very close). LOL

The writer of the article does not ring a bell, I can't say if he
actually talked to any of the people he quotes.


I know that Shamanism too, is for sale everywhere on the inter-webs.
$1,999.00 for a weeks course and you too can become a Shaman.
This stuff is really sickening. These things are lifetime commitments.
Not everyone can just become a Shaman I would imagine.
There is this big fad where everything is for sale. Nobody
benefits from the for sale system.It is kinda like prostitution.
Not True Love.


I've said my piece, and it was not so painful.Just stung a bit.:cool:

ImthatIm 01-02-2021 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentient
Day before yesterday - saw a beautiful tribal tattoo on a beautiful young PNG woman.
I so love the look of Polynesian/Melanesian tattoos and feel proud for them for continuing with the tradition.

Made me think though – if I had a tattoo – what would it be?

a Swastika.
Our swastikas never were an Aryan-Nazi-white-supremacy symbol, but this:
https://hridayaravinde.files.wordpre...jpg.png?w=1140

The Sky Nail Pole Star and the rotational movement around this Axis Mundi – the World Pole.

*

.aaaand a Southern Cross tattoo:


*





It would be nice to get a swastika if it wasn't so negatively charged nowadays.

sentient 01-02-2021 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
LOL, your cartoon got me. I fell for for it. Good one.

:smile:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
Your picture makes good sense until I see the thumb tack and modern looking pole.

No-no-noooo. Not modern.
The “thumb tack” is supposed to illustrate the “Sky Nail” that keeps the Pole Star stationary.
Quote:

When we look towards the pole star, it appears stationary because it is pointing exactly in the north direction. The Earth spins on its axis and the pole star is almost exactly above this axis of the Earth. Hence, it appears stationary.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
It would be nice to get a swastika if it wasn't so negatively charged nowadays.

We can’t get rid of the Swastika nor our other stories.
The Bear from its Heavenly home wanted to come down to Earth to taste those juicy berries, so a basket was lowered down for the Bear to do so.

Long story (part of the Bear Ceremony).
The Bear Cult is Eurasian – yet everybody has a different version of it.

So - noooo, we don’t change our stories. They are as they always were.
It is the Western man that always changes their stories.

First they are pagan priests and witches, whatever …
Then they are Catholics doing the witch hunts and accusing the indigenous of the dark art …
Then these big time slave traders become Lutheran race hygienists
Quote:

Eugenics is a set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population, historically by excluding people and groups judged to be inferior or promoting those judged to be superior.
Now they are the conscience to the world anti-racist saviours of the Amer. injuns … but still promoting hierarchical thinking ...
Wonders never cease. What’s next.

But this – who is more indigenous in the “indigenousness hierarchy” – must go.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
I know that Shamanism too, is for sale everywhere on the inter-webs.
$1,999.00 for a weeks course and you too can become a Shaman.
This stuff is really sickening. These things are lifetime commitments.
Not everyone can just become a Shaman I would imagine.
There is this big fad where everything is for sale. Nobody
benefits from the for sale system.It is kinda like prostitution.
Not True Love.


Yeah, but who is doing this selling? Where do these sellers live/come from?
That is my culture … my ancestry. Yet I do not know one person (from my 2 ethnic groups) selling Shamanism ....selling "how-to-become-a-shaman" workshops.
That would be utterly ridiculous.

Though there are academic books one can read if one is interested in the subject:
Shamanism and Northern Ecology:
https://www.google.com.au/books/edit... c=frontcover

Shamanism and Culture:
https://books.google.com.au/books/ab...&redir_e sc=y

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sentient 01-02-2021 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
It would be nice to get a swastika if it wasn't so negatively charged nowadays.


P.S.
One may repeat the injun saying "Mitakuye Oyasin" - which I trust means the interconnectedness of everything.
But indigenous symbols are like that also.

It is "white thinking" to think that one can just take an ancient symbol out-of-context, like it existed in isolation and then compartmentalise it to mean whatever-one-wants.

And if the meaning one gave to it (living up to the concept of it) did not work ... then one can just take the symbol out again, ban it now as evil.

Whilst all that time (*elevator music*) the Dig Dipper has been rotating around the 'stationary' Pole Star. The symbol being there there in da sky.

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sentient 02-02-2021 02:30 AM

Quote:

The swastika was a widely used Native American symbol. It was used by many southwestern tribes, most notably the Navajo.
Among different tribes the swastika carried various meanings. To the Hopi it represented the wandering Hopi clans; to the Navajo it represented a whirling log ( tsil no'oli' ), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals.
"The history of the swastika goes back to the origins of the Eurasian Continent.

"Indian Country" on Swastikas:
https://indiancountrytoday.com/archi...2ESRw_IpQBexTw
^
(Here once again it is forgotten or not known that Europe had/has its hunter-gatherers to whom this cross (also called) “FireCross” is about the stationary Pole Star and its relation to the rotating Big Dipper through the seasons).

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ImthatIm 02-02-2021 03:00 PM

I'm all for you getting a swastika tattoo.I support you 100%.:icon_razz:

ImthatIm 02-02-2021 03:05 PM

sentient

Quote:

No-no-noooo. Not modern.
The “thumb tack” is supposed to illustrate the “Sky Nail” that keeps the Pole Star stationary.


I forgot there was forged metal on that continent for quite some time.


Do you know where your people went during the ice-age?

ImthatIm 02-02-2021 03:39 PM

A brief message from Terence McKenna 1:44mins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC7aud4b3dQ


Seemed like a reasonable message in this world of today.

sentient 02-02-2021 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
I'm all for you getting a swastika tattoo.I support you 100%.:icon_razz:

Not getting a tattoo, heh.
But moving on … have since discovered interesting and beautiful Navajo weaving patterns and I really love this design:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmK74W55kPE

Now, if Navajos wanted to revive and use that old symbol of theirs, I can’t see why they shouldn’t since it has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler’s: “Stand-in-for-your-superiority-as-the-White-Aryan-Master-Race” … The high aspirations of it and the bitter falls …

(Here one needs the fall-off-your-high-camel video to illustrate):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AN3NGf-iXY

Navajos apparently didn’t even have Chiefs!

*

Gimbutas: “Swastika was a symbol of the perpetual motion of life and the universe” (So perhaps that was the original Euro hunter-gatherer definition for it?).

But because ours is an Arctic-Siberian influenced Euro view it is the Polaris – Big Dipper – World Pole – Axis Mundi (and how every aspect and symbol ties into that) Worldview … where stillness and movement come together, time and timelessness etc. etc. etc. which is a real shamanic spiritual awakening experience into nonduality. (The experience one has just before Thunderbird swallows one up, which is the shamanic-death-experience).

And so on.

*

sentient 02-02-2021 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
sentient

I forgot there was forged metal on that continent for quite some time.


Yeah. Yakut, Mongol, Uralic etc. shamen used heaps of metal in their regalia:


And then there was this development:


*

ImthatIm 02-02-2021 09:41 PM

sentient

Quote:

Polaris – Big Dipper – World Pole – Axis Mundi (and how every aspect and symbol ties into that) Worldview … where stillness and movement come together, time and timelessness etc. etc. etc.



Again my worldview below. I love this picture below.
I sit or stand at Axis Mundi.Or I could say I
stand at the center of the Universe.I can see the swastika in it.etc. etc.
Though I would turn 180 degrees since we almost always begin
facing West, where the Thunderbird lives and comes from.
So I guess this is how I understand Non-duality.
Yet it looks like I am alone, I assure you this represent ALL
to me. Even camels. LOL.
So i can see how the swastika represent everything.


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...HwHLQ&usqp=CAU


I probably should add that the top word in the pic. is:
Wakan Tanka = Great Mystery Spirit that is in ALL.(There is ONE)

Tunkashila = Grandfather Spirits of the up direction or sky and they wear a huge Blue Robe.(We say there are 101 of these High Helpers)
101 High Helpers of Wakan Tanka in each direction W,N,E,S,.


Then Unci Maka- Grandmother the Earth below also 101 High Helper Spirits.
606 total High Helpers Spirits.

sentient 03-02-2021 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
Again my worldview below. I love this picture below.
I sit or stand at Axis Mundi.Or I could say I
stand at the center of the Universe.I can see the swastika in it.etc. etc.
Though I would turn 180 degrees since we almost always begin
facing West, where the Thunderbird lives and comes from.
So I guess this is how I understand Non-duality.
Yet it looks like I am alone, I assure you this represent ALL
to me. Even camels. LOL.
So i can see how the swastika represent everything.


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...HwHLQ&usqp=CAU


I probably should add that the top word in the pic. is:
Wakan Tanka = Great Mystery Spirit that is in ALL.(There is ONE)

Tunkashila = Grandfather Spirits of the up direction or sky and they wear a huge Blue Robe.(We say there are 101 of these High Helpers)
101 High Helpers of Wakan Tanka in each direction W,N,E,S,.


Then Unci Maka- Grandmother the Earth below also 101 High Helper Spirits.
606 total High Helpers Spirits.

That is truly lovely ImthatIm.
And your Pipe practices.
“Sound as Bell” practices imo. Very important to keep alive.

*

These I trust, are old Baltic hunter-gatherer symbols.
We love them – we keep them, no matter what that clown Hitler high-on-his-camel-of-self-importance did to the symbol. Nothing to do with us.

These are represented in our weavings, clothings etc.
https://shaktashop.fi/wp-content/upl...128_170601.jpg

*

sentient 03-02-2021 01:06 AM

Is that a drum or is that a drum!
If these drums do not summon spirits, it will be a blooming miracle:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-Findeisen.ppm


The most important part of the drum - as far as the Shaman is concerned is on the inside:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cd/6b...10d11d2d0e.jpg

This. Was carved into a stone by our Siberian Ancestors to always remember our Reality Orientation:



*

ImthatIm 03-02-2021 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentient
That is truly lovely ImthatIm.
And your Pipe practices.
“Sound as Bell” practices imo. Very important to keep alive.

*

These I trust, are old Baltic hunter-gatherer symbols.
We love them – we keep them, no matter what that clown Hitler high-on-his-camel-of-self-importance did to the symbol. Nothing to do with us.

These are represented in our weavings, clothings etc.
https://shaktashop.fi/wp-content/upl...128_170601.jpg

*



I love designs and symbols.this is suposedly how my Chinese clan is written.
It's got the 4 directions on a pole.LOL.

I was kinda let down when I traced me Irish clan it was probably Germanic.But that's just that negative charge or connotation again from Adolf.
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Who knows what is real though, history can be a my-story/mystery.LOL


*
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When those DNA peoples track and find the lost 10 tribes of Israel I will
consider slapping down some frog skins. ($).
*
*
I think I went off track with this post. Must have been the camels. LOL.

sentient 03-02-2021 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
sentient

Do you know where your people went during the ice-age?

Ok.
They did not go anywhere.
As far as my two grandmothers Mt DNA-lines are concerned, they weathered the Ice Age in Solutrean and Proto-Solutrean refugia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_G...aximum_refugia

As the Ice receded – they allegedly moved into and lived in Doggerland.

Later on, they moved – via Baltics to North.

My “white” – bloody Viking grandfather – the I1 (I-M253), was also a ‘Native Euro son.’
But I suppose they fell into the wrong crowd and became Vikings in Gotland.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Bronze_Age.png

My other grandfather – the North Eurasian N … I don’t know – they were the Mammoth hunters of the Mammoth Steppe, where there was no ice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog..._N_(ADN-Y).PNG

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sentient 03-02-2021 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
I was kinda let down when I traced me Irish clan it was probably Germanic.But that's just that negative charge or connotation again from Adolf.


Well – don’t be disheartened. REALLY.

ALL Europeans have the hunter-gatherer genes as well as the Near Eastern agriculturalist genes and the Indo-European invader genes …it just depends on what proportion.

And besides - Which wolf do you feed?

I am the grey area here. I am more of the Eastern Hunter-Gatherer and also because we have Siberian - which is not European, they left us out of the map.
Hope the map shows:
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con..._admixture.png

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ImthatIm 03-02-2021 03:18 PM

sentient

Quote:

Well – don’t be disheartened. REALLY.


Alright... I won't, it has been sometime(2003 or so) since I read that the surname
(Renick) probably derived and came from the Rhine river region.
I picked up from my Grandmothers research that she done in the late 70s.
I figured I would see what the inter-webs could reveal.(Not much without forking over frog skins) ($).


I place all this tracing bloodline on the same lines as previous lives.
When it is time and important enough the Higher Powers will put it in front of me and align it and it will be unavoidable.
It seems the Powers that be, want me dealing with issues that over-feed the Dark wolf.(Blackroad)
Learning to keep walking in the NOW energies of Life.(Redroad and health) Learning to Live in Peace.


My wifes new found uncle (He was adopted out from fam.) had a DNA test recently. None of his Native DNA came up. It was obvious that He was her uncle
the first time we seen him. No doubt. Now he has no legal standing with the tribe and it has messed with His abandonment issues. Sad deal.
Which has lead me to further mistrust DNA companies accuracy.

ImthatIm 03-02-2021 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentient
Yeah. Yakut, Mongol, Uralic etc. shamen used heaps of metal in their regalia:


And then there was this development:


*





That regalia is quite incredible, and that is a whole lot of metal.
Lots of bells too I see.
Which has me bringing up this statement of yours.
I have not heard anything like it.
Quote:

“Sound as Bell” practices imo. Very important to keep alive.
"Sound as bell" practices????

sentient 03-02-2021 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
"Sound as bell" practices????

I have only watched – what … 3? Oren Lyons youtubes, yet in them, here and there he says things that pricked up my ears. He really seems to be talking from an indigenous perspective – not only local but in a general sense also.

Quote:

About the Tree of Peace

Bill Moyers:
Every part of that painting is a symbol.

Oren Lyons:
Yes. When the Peacemaker had planted the Tree of Peace, he placed the eagle in the top. And the eagle would belong to everyone and the eagle would sit there in vigilance and watch and would scream when things were coming towards the tree. He said that there will come a time when this tree will be attacked.
We can look at that at this time or we could have looked at it in 1776 or we could have looked at it in 1620, when it has come under attack. Today, it's still here. The tree is still standing and we, the chiefs of the Long House, are dedicated to its continuance and to its future.

Bill Moyers:
When you say the tree is still here, you mean spiritually?

Oren Lyons:
Spiritually. Yes. It was a spiritual tree to begin with. Because again, people are so literal. It's hard at times to have a discussion with people who think in linear terms. Because they say, "We come to see the tree." And we say, "It's a great tree. It reaches to the heavens. You can't see it. You can't see it? We can see it." But it's there. And it's very real. And again, as we were told, sometimes the most real things you can't see.

One could say the same thing about the mythological World Pole. It is here. It is very real. It is functional. And again, sometimes the most real things are those you cannot see.

*

In this day and age of fake medicine men, plastic shamen, new age fantasy worlds, whatnot, people can say things that just do not sound right, the words do not have the ‘right echo’ or the ‘right ring’ to them.

And when a fake shaman say, attaches new meanings and/or extra practices that contradict the original core practice, then they have not understood shamanism in the first place and that new age practice will not be “as sound as a bell” - there will be an odd, distorted 'ring' to it.

P.S. Some Ice Age and after maps:
https://bladehoner.wordpress.com/201...an-migrations/

DNA
The important thing about the DNA test is to get the Raw Data.
The Dna companies will only give one a general ‘reading’, but with that raw data one can start investigating …

*

ImthatIm 03-02-2021 10:30 PM

Let me first just give you a big thank you.
Your like a teacher. You have provided a whole bunch of information that
interests me. My big stumbling block is as always trust. I don't know what
to trust so I throw up my hands and walk away.


Thanks for taking the time to answer some questions.
I did not know if "Sound as bell" was a saying or a ceremonial practice.
Thanks for explaining.


That is a bunch of migration information. Wow, I had not really studied any
migration history from that far back.

sentient 04-02-2021 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm
That is a bunch of migration information. Wow, I had not really studied any
migration history from that far back.

I had not done so either, but this is what happens when you take a DNA-test.

At first, I belonged to various DNA-analysis groups and then I also uploaded my (downloaded) raw dna to this site:
https://blog.genomelink.io/posts/how-to-use-gedmatch

With so many calculators there you will soon discover what % of which migration you are.
They also detect one’s Amerind % more accurately.

Plus, I had mentioned, that with 4 populations African, Asian, European and Amerind I get 12.50% Amerind. (Which % - when Siberian populations are added comes down, because ‘my false Amerind' is hidden in my Siberian ancestry).

Sometimes when Americans get “Volga-Ural” (was it?) or Finland&North Eurasia their “Amerind” might be hidden there, because for a long time DNA analysis could not tell the difference between our false-positive Amerind-dna and real Amerind-dna from Americas.

Why Is My Native American Ancestry Not Showing Up?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geE7zsehccY

And other problems:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyXF_LffAM0

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ImthatIm 04-02-2021 01:27 PM

sentient

Quote:

which is a real shamanic spiritual awakening experience into nonduality. (The experience one has just before Thunderbird swallows one up, which is the shamanic-death-experience).


So I have kind of ignored responding to (shamanic-death-experience)

This resonates with me, but I correlate it to a vision quest.
It maybe incorrect to compare the 2 but none the less they may be similar.

A vision quest is where a medicine person or Holy person
most commonly gets their Power or becomes a medicine person.
(ussually 4 days no food or water and isolated in nature)
A regular person (non medicine man)also starts understanding their gifts or
recieves a vision to live by on vision quest.
All should "go up on the hill/mountain" which is another phrase for vision quest.
I was taught that you either receive your vision or wander about aimlessly.



Though I don't want to violate the rules on dangerous practices here (SF)
but I don't want to keep ignoring the topic either. I see it as most important.
Even though I know nothing of the shamanic death experience.
I wanted to give my opinion and see if they are similar at least in importance.



We call the vision quest "the little death" or "crying for a vision"
This is where you start to get to know or understand your spirit helpers.
Be it animal, ancestor, plant or whatever Life may have in store for an individual.
Maybe receive instruction from Spirit.
Of course these visions/instructions can come in different ways but I understand
this to be the most common way or rite.


Speaking rites, the vision quest is another rite given by
White Buffalo Calf Maiden.


Also I was taught that all peoples at one time had a form of the vision quest.
Alright, I at least acknowledged the shamanic-death-experience and the vision quest.

sentient 04-02-2021 09:20 PM

ImthatIm:

I really needed to hear this “Doctrine of Discovery”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYZ2rj2Jooc
(A more than 1hr long video):

As one comment says:
Quote:

Now I can understand how the Doctrine of Discovery was applied when Captain Cook "discovered Australia.”
Why Australia was claimed to be "Terra Nullius" (empty, unoccupied wasteland ready to be taken).

Similar things happened to our peoples also, which I wrote here about:
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=180

*

sentient 04-02-2021 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImthatIm


So I have kind of ignored responding to (shamanic-death-experience)

This resonates with me, but I correlate it to a vision quest.
It maybe incorrect to compare the 2 but none the less they may be similar.

Thank you for sharing vision quest info.

*

On the top of the World Pole sits the Eagle.
It represents Totality. The ALL-seeing-eye, perhaps one could say.

Thunderbird is the Power aspect of that Eagle.

To us Jesus was like a shaman, who died to the ‘separate-self-identity’ and its interests in order to benefit ALL creation.

All shamen were initiated by Thunderbird Eagle.
The gift of manifesting the 'spiritual dimension' came with that 'death'.

*

ImthatIm 04-02-2021 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sentient
ImthatIm:

I really needed to hear this “Doctrine of Discovery”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYZ2rj2Jooc
(A more than 1hr long video):

As one comment says:

Why Australia was claimed to be "Terra Nullius" (empty, unoccupied wasteland ready to be taken).

Similar things happened to our peoples also, which I wrote here about:
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=180

*





Preaching to the choir. i have seen vids. of Mark Charles speak too.


Then throw democracy on top of doctrine of discovery. As told by Oren Lyons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs0EK1z9xhc


I got the Roman stomping on my Irish side too.
The English learned from the Romans how to oppress, I believe.

sentient 11-02-2021 09:26 PM

In the light of the Doctrine of Discovery, I am reviewing my old notes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3gF7ULVrl4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3oc84aLC-Q


Quote:

ABORIGINAL HISTORY

Pre-Contact

1. Land/People
2. Culture
3. Languages


Immigration
Aboriginal people arrived to Australia from S.E. Asia by sea.
(First; - shipwrecked & fishermen perhaps ... about 60 000 - 50 000 years ago).

Early sites of human occupation from 53 000 years ago found in Arnhem Land.
Obviously talented tool-makers, having arrived to Australia by rafts/boats (first in the world,)
but Australian climate, environment, Australia's flora and fauna, raw materials were different than what they were used to, hence "trial and error - school".
Out of these beginnings Aboriginal people developed a highly complex culture & society rules.


Dreamtime Myths & Storytelling Rituals & Rockcarvings
In the Dreamtime Ancestral Spirit Beings, both in their animal & human forms roamed the earth.
They created in their epic adventures the features of the land; - the rivers, the hills, waterholes & rock formations, all species.
They controlled the movement of the sun and the moon, the stars, rain clouds & tides and established Sacred Laws and Customs.


Land Ownwership / Land Rights
People inherited rights to a particular area of land through their fathers ... "Father's Country"... and ideally; - this was an area where the child was conceived as well.
By conception Aboriginal people meant the moment, when a woman first realized that she was pregnant, for this indicated the pool where the child's Spiritual Essence came from. This pool was at or near the track an Ancestral Spirit Being passed through in the Dreamtime, near it's Sacred Sites, which gave the child his Totem = His identity, his connection to the Land and it's Spirit.
These 3 (Person - Land -Spirit) therefore cannot be seen as separate things or concepts.
Men became Custodians of their Sacred Sites in their areas, thus having special rights and obligations to that particular land area.


Land Use
Aboriginal people did not have an agricultural system, they relied totally on natural resources, they were hunter-gatherers.
A person would have a right to hunt and gather in his/her father's country area (which often was his Totem-Spirit-Essence area as well.
Joined, co-ordinated hunting & gathering activities were also organized with neighbouring country-area-groups as well.
Aborigines moved with the seasons within their territory and had indepth knowledge of water & food resources available at any particular time. They had extensive knowledge of the usages of the plants within their territory .... both food and for medicine (or poison). They understood the movement and habits of animals.


Passing The Knowledge
From childhood, stories would be told to connect the child to his/her environment; spiritual as well as physical and social.
As the child grew, these stories would become increasingly more complex, more encompassing.


Kinship System
Aborigines had/have strict rules of behaviour within the family relations, these are called Kinship - Rules.
For example who could marry whom. A man could not talk to his mother-in-law, or any other person he would term as such, nor could she talk to him.
Father's younger brothers were also called fathers and if father died, brother-father would look after the child. Same with mother. Mother's younger sisters were also called mothers.
Often father's older brother would be called a 'Teacher' for he had the responsibility of disciplining his brother's children and teaching them about culture.

When a child grew to puperty, first initiations both for boys and girls would take place.
Boys and girls separately would be taken away from the camp to be trained and prepared for
adulthood.
For girls this moment meant initiation into womanhood & marriage ... for boys this first initiation marked the first step into their Secret-Sacred knowledge about their Spirit Land and its Laws, which men were Custodians of. Many nore initiations would follow.
External signs of initiation include scars on the chest and back, missing front teeth or head-bands.


Law, Authority and Leadership
Initiated men were generally responsible for matters of Law & Order.
Elders, old men, who had gone through all the initiations of the Secret-Sacred knowledge, whom people 'knew' to be wise, who either "owned" or belonged to the local territory, - who had close kinship and ceremonial ties to that particular locality formed "The-Body-of-Elders".
Body-of-Elders had the power and the decison making responsibilities. They also became the 'initiators'.

For example;
- Incest would be punished by death.
- Murder, adultery, sorcery might bring a blood-feud, retaliation
- Lesser offences (injury to others, property) ... spearing
- Gossip & shaming was also a good social control tool

From the wet tropics to the dry inland desets, there are many different climatic changes, "zones" ... areas where unique cultures developed suited to those particular areas of habitation. Therefore generalizing about Aboriginal culture in Australia is often not such a good idea.


Language (Pre-Contact)
Approx. 240 languages spoken.
Approx. 700 dialects.

The reason there were so many languages spoken, is because language is always tied to the land (marks).
When Ancestral Dreamtime Spirit Beings formed the earth, created everything on it ... Where they passed or stopped & went underground or up to heavens, leaving Sacred Sites of their passing or presence behind, there they also named everything, planted a language.
Neighbouring territories might also have the same Spirit Ancestor, which passed through those lands, but at the boarder the Spirit Ancestor changed language.

Therefore ... when a person knows his "Dreaming", he will also know his land, which gives him his language & his identity + his place in the world & his culture.

Aboriginal Culture is thought to be the oldest known culture in the world.


Quote:

Contact (1770 - 1967)

1770 Captain Cook came exploring
He had been given secret orders to carefully observe the land and it's natives and ONLY take posession of any land with the consent of the natives.
And yes, Captain Cook and his crew did make some superficial observations of the land, it's flora and fauna and it's people.
BUT ! The natives consent to take posession of the land was never asked.
If the land was called "TERRA NULLIUS", meaning empty, unhabited wasteland, in such case consent was obviously not needed.

Because there were no signs of farming, permanent housing, no army fleets to meet Captain Cook .....
Australia was conveniently decided by The British Government to be "Terra Nullius".


1788 Arrival of British to Botany Bay - Sydney Cove (Captain Philip)
- Botany Bay at first, but there was no water > Sydney Cove.
- Marks the year of colonization of Australia for British
- Marks the year of INVASION for Aboriginal peoples.



Invaders
White slaves were brought to colonize:
- British and Irish convicts for labour. Australia as "Penal Colony".

Australia was not only being invaded by the British, but it also was being invaded by European animals & plants:
- Domestics as Cows / Sheep / Goats / Pigs / Poultry
- Horse / Donkey / Camel / Buffalo for transport & farmwork
- Cats / Dogs for companions
- Vermin such as Rats / Mice just came along
- To make Australia more beautiful Rabbits & British songbirds were introduced
- For sport and hunting ... Fox
Most of these animals escaped into the wild, still causing much destruction on the land & native flora & fauna.

Europeans also brought with them diseases such as smallbox, measels and influenza.
To these Aboriginal people had no immunity. These diseases spread rapidly and large number of Aborigines died.


Dispossession
As the invaders, both in their human and animal forms started to spread into the country, they seized i.e. took posession of Aboriginal land.



Popular Beliefs at Contact
Aborigines wondered about the white men and often believed them to be reincarnated spirits of their dead clan - members.
Out of British ignorance, suspicion, fear and desire to posess-arrogance; - popular beliefs of the Aborigines conveniently were:
- Most miserable people in the world
- Filthy, ugly
- Lacking of essential human attributes
- Black skin, shark-like teeth ... such hideous appearance could only point to inward dificiency of morality and intelligence.

GOD had commanded man to till the earth and make it fruitful, therefore British had the perfect right, under Divine Authority to go fourth & people & till the land and to take it from the Aborigines, who obviously were far too primitive to understand the proper land use and hence could not be regarded as having any claim whatsoever to the land.



Food - Water
For both, Aborigines and the (human & animal) invaders ... food and water availability was central.
When traditional food source availability was gone from traditional "tribal" hunting territories, there now was cattle and sheep. Aborigines believed it to be their right to hunt those for food.
Squatters in turn wanted to protect their cattle / sheep .... this was the start of conflict.

Many Aboriginal clans died of starvation, not being able to access their food and water supply areas, or in general Aboriginal health started to suffer ... then their societies started to break down.
There was a sense of hopelessness, loss of pride and great confusion.


Massacres, then Systematic Cenocide
Started by poisoning , shooting and hunting Aboriginal people for sport.



Native Police
- From distant territories were bribed to track down other clans.
- They were given best rations, good horses, they could rape women etc.
- They came to be called "Bullymen" and were dispised by their own race.



1816 - Coverner Davis'es Proclamation
Justice system about relations with Aborigines (do this do that).



1838 Mayall Creek Nth NSW
Conflict with Aborigines led to a massacre of Aborigines by shepherds.
Justice was carried out, 5 whites were hanged.
Mayall Creek was the first national news to hit the headlines about relations between whites and blacks and the only place whites were punished.


1858 Horned Bank - QLD
Two Frazer boys took two Aborigine women, whipped them and then raped them (Jiman people).
11 Frazer - family members were killed.
Massacre happened afterwards. Surviving Frazer son (of the quilty 2) spent rest of his life killing Aborigines.
Jiman people no longer exist.


1862 Cullin - La - Ringo
Wills family was killed


1839 Aborigines Preservation & Protection Act


1897 The Protection of Aboriginals & Restriction of The Sale of Opium Act
British conscience started to bite and to salve the situation, British Government decided to "protect" Aborigines i.e. control Aborigines by putting them into reserves.
Media opinion was that Aborigines were infant-like, mentally inferior, not able to look after themselves, therefore they were considered as wards of the Government.
Aborigines were seen as having no culture, no purpose, no history, no laws, no religion.
"Aborigines must be protected from themselves"

Under the Act
Local Police was "the protector of Aborigines"
White people were handled by courts, Aboriginal people by Police Stations.
Police handled arrangements for Aboriginal employment and pay was often held in the police station, only pocket-money was given (the rest sometimes was never seen).



Missions / Reserves
2 Choices (but often forced to move):

1) Traditional life,
Resisting European settlement, thus risking punishment of "Black Crimes" . .
Black Crimes were: Cultural Ceremonies & Storytelling, Dance and travel.
Risking mulnutrition.

2a) Missions
Health / foodrations / protection / education / dormitories / English / religion
& for example needlework for women
All this meant separating Aboriginals from white community.
It ensured that Aboriginals lost all civil rights and were under control.
Suppressions of traditional society organization / religious ceremonies / culture / language

2b) Reserves
1909 Aboriginal reserves were also being established to be under white management.
They often were training camps for servants.
Farmwork for boys and domestic servant training for girls.
Children aged 13 were taken to be sent to white employers
(Managers arranged marriages)
Set wages, but Aboriginal employees often only got pocket money, wages never to be seen.
Employeers were "Masters".
In some reserves mortality was high.
1930's many Reserves closed to release Aboriginal Reserve Land for farming.



1930's
In order to escape "protection", Aboriginal people started to speak out.
It was a time of Depression.
Communist Party was sympathetic to Aboriginal situation as were some other organizations for example 'feminist movement'.

Aboriginal plight started to get media coverage (Newspapers) and support for Aboriginal cause started to spread.
In 1930's first public protests by Aborigines were aiming mainly at wider community's attention to the harsh treatment of Aborigines on reserves and the removal of children from parents ....
People wanted freedom from Protection Act.
People wanted Landrights
People wanted Equal Pay


1950's
In 1950's Aboriginal Organizations began to raise public consciousness.
Aboriginal Organizations like APA: Aboriginal Progressive Association was demanding changes.
Australian Aboriginal League
In 1957 a peak council of such advancement bodies was established and in 1958 renamed as: "FEDERAL COUNCIL FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF ABORIGINES AND TORRES STRAIT ISLANDERS' = "FCAATSI".
Largely as a result of FCAATSI in 1967 a referendum was held to change 2 clauses in the Federal Constitution discriminating against Aborigines.
For the first time Aboriginal people would be counted in national cencus.
This in other words meant that white Australians considered Aborigines to be human beings for the first time.

Quote:


1967 - 1988 Post Contact


"The Assimilation Policy"
- was adopted and began to be implemented in 1960's
To Aboriginal viewpoint this assimilation policy introduced another type of economic control, one which would make Aborigines the menial workforce of the nation, with menial wages, confining them on powerless economic level and therefore to a controllable situation.

From Aboriginal viewpoint; - much time and effort was put into schemes designed to assimilate Aborigines and therefore to rid the nation of the "Aboriginal Problem".
Despite their low socio-economic status, most Aborigines however refused to become assimilated to the low status.

1972 A Labour Government started a new policy of "Self - Determination".
Allocations of money and bureaucratic positions incresed.
A sprinkling of Aborigine males achieved senior positions, the bulk of public service positions were being filled by white males.

"Self - Determination" policy was followed by "Self - Management" policy in the 1980's.
Structures and institutions were established to aid the process, but again, the control and decision - making powers remained in non-Aboriginal hands.


1972 "The Tent Embassy" was set up on the lawns in front of The Parlament House in Canberra to draw attention to the landrights issues.
Governments had provided leases to Aboriginal communities whilst retaining certain powers to resume such lands. The demand for greater security of the title led to legistlation which incorporated the concept of inalienable freehold title held by local Aboriginal corporate bodies.

Year 1988 brought Bicentennial Celebrations marking 200 years of European occupation.


*

Contemporary; -1988 onwards ...


1992 Aboriginal people were recognized as being the first inhabitants of Australia.
This was handed down by the High Court of Australia in what has become known as the "Mabo Decision"

Mabo and others v State of Queensland decision rewrote Australian Law:
- That Australia was not TERRA NULLIUS (land belonging to no one), when settled by the British in 1788, but was occupied by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, who had their own Laws and Customs.

***

Australian Launch of the International Year for the World's Indigenous People
The speech by the then Prime Minister of Australia, Paul Keating, at Redfern Park in Sydney on 10 December 1992
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6dnDkvdTXA

2008 Australia says SORRY
Australia formally apologised to the Stolen Generations with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd reading a speech in Federal Parliament Feb. 13th 2008 ... speech which was delivered in a heartfelt and genuine manner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dild-xAzJ0


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