How do thoughts arise ... along with duality?
 

I had an interesting discussion yesterday on "How do thoughts arise" and how does the One get entangled in them and duality. It seems like an appropriate discussion topic for this non-duality forum.

While I can think of a number of starting points for this discussion, I am inclined to start with a fairly standard Thought-Observation Meditation Technique. It would seem logical that, in order to understand the thought process, one should observe it as best as possible. (Simultaneously, I am taking an online course on "The Brain" in which cognition will be the specific topic in a few weeks.)

What is the thought observation meditation technique? Simply stated, the variation taught at our ashram consists of four steps:

1. Thought Observation: Silently observe the thoughts with full attention. Imagine that you are observing these thoughts as a witness and go on studying the mental modifications.

2. Thought-Creation Method: Consciously bring the thought of any subject to your mind. After 5-7 seconds consciously remove the thought from the mind. Now bring another thought to the mind.

3. Thought-Expulsion Method: Observe the thoughts that come into the mind. Expel each thought as it comes. Give no opportunity for any thought to persist. You are not to bring any thought to the mind consciously but only to expel each thought.

4. Mental-Jerk Method: With one "jerk", not physical but mental, make the mind thought-free.

Many years ago, I met an actor from Sex and The City. He came over for a free meditation session and eventually brought other actors and actresses from the show with him. This was one of the techniques which attracted the most interest as they indicated it was very consistent with method acting whereby an actor/actress would clear their mind, create a thought (the character whose role they would be performing), and thus assume a new "persona" prior to the next filming session.

Let's start here and see where it leads relevant to the primary question that I would like to discuss on this thread: "How do thoughts arise?" and "How does the One get entangled in thoughts and duality?"

Interesting. How do thoughts arise? Out of a mental response in our chitta (mind-stuff) to an internal or external impression. This produces associations or ripples of disturbance known as vritti. We get entangled by following these associations.

The recognition of an object and the immediate control of the responsive chitta is technically called nirodha (cessation).

Hence Patanjali's famous definition of Yoga in his second sutra “yoga-citta-vritti-nirodha” which can be translated as “Yoga is the cessation of the fluctuations of the mind.”

My approach to stopping this endless flow of thoughts is similar to option 3 above, the Thought-Expulsion method.

Becoming aware of thoughts rising out of nothing and dissolving back into nothing, I rest in that space of nothingness between thoughts. I then prevent the next thought from arising. As long as I stay present, that next thought does not arise.

As always, we can turn to Ramana Maharshi, who says:

Never allow thought to run on. If you do, it will be unending. ... The mind exists only by reason of thought. Stop thought and there is no mind.

We find a similar idea in Patanjali (Book 3, 9-10):

Study of the silent moments between rising and restraining subliminal impressions is the transformation of concentration towards restraint.

The restraint of rising impressions brings about an undisturbed flow of tranquility.

Alice Bailey comments in The Light of the Soul on Book 3 Sutra 10:

The point of balance between excitation of the mind and control can be achieved with greater frequency by constant repetition, until the habit of stabilising the mind is acquired.

This leads to a still mind, free from thoughts, under the control of the will of the Soul.

Peace

One has to have the comparison of self, no self . Mind and no mind in order to understand that when there is self awareness there is the thought of that .

Thoughts arise because self is in and of the mind .

Sure there can be times of deep sleep or whatever word floats your boat, but there is self awareness and you can't prise apart awareness of I AM present and aware of that and the thought of that .

One doesn't have to entertain a thought after another thought to be mindful .

self awareness is the key .


x daz x

The only real difference I would make with iamthat is dictionary, but would add the similarities of dreams with thoughts. There's a symbiotic relationship with the conscious and the unconscious and the two are always chattering away whether we are wide awake or sound asleep. It's the ego/Ahamkara itself that dismisses dreams as insignificant and appropriates thoughts as its own, since the mind is an aspect of ego/Ahamkara. The ego/Ahamkara also makes associations with a single thought and it turns into a train soon enough, while in dreams the ego is more 'dormant' and dreams play out a single 'theme'.

QUOTE 2 EXCERPT: Mindful of administrative guidelines on the length of posts that we can quote, I limited my quote excerpt to the above though I could easily have quoted more because it is such an insightful post.

Your first line is particularly INSIGHTFUL as it covers virtually every imaginable thought that arises... a response to an internal or external impression. For the most part, the process with external triggers is fairly obvious while the internal triggering impressions become more intriguing as the unconscious becomes a more and more prominent factor when one probes the depths of consciousness. Of course, in non-duality, distinctions between "internal" and "external' can become somewhat blurred at times.

Your point on entanglement is also well taken. With the Thought Observation Meditation Technique, I had expanded on the Thought Creation Method to include watching the mental associations that arise from a primal thought. As one gets more and more absorbed in the growing tree/forest of associations, the potential for entanglement does indeed increase significantly depending on the degree of absorption.

In conscious sleep, I can watch the transition between the deep sleep state and the so-called waking state. Although I can carry that thought-free deep sleep state into the waking state upon arising in the morning, there is invariably an external impression (such as my cats signaling that it's time to get up and feed them) that triggers the arising of thoughts as the daily drama of life begins once again. Dream formation works the same way relative to the arising of an internal pressure with mental associations that create the dream. As you can see, I have studied this process in various ways and my understanding seems to be very consistent with your very concise, precise opening statement.

Now, regarding your widely accepted translation of Pantanjali's 2nd sutra .... particularly the word "nirodha" (cessation) .... I once thought exactly the same way. However, after lengthy discussions/sessions with my spiritual mentor, who was a recognized adept throughout India on Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras, I changed my position to "perfect control of the modifications (fluctuations) of the mind" instead of "cessation of the fluctuations of the mind". I cringed at the word "control" at first since it sounded labored and not effortless. However, the analogy of driving a car and being in "control" of the car was brought up to address my resistance to the word "control". With control, one can quiet the mind at will (cessation) and activate it at will. Hence, I now translate that passage as "perfect control of the modifications of the mind" in that context even though I was very resistant to that verbiage initially.

Your quote from Ramana ("The mind exists only by reason of thought. Stop thought and there is no mind.") is very consistent with what we are discussing. Ramana defined the mind as "a bundle of thoughts". Hence, when one stops thought as in the quote you presented, "there is no mind".

Many of your statements caught my attention but I will only quote one more at this time: "Study of the silent moments between rising and restraining subliminal impressions is the transformation of concentration towards restraint." I will share an interesting story about my mother, who was very devoted to saying the Roman Catholic Rosary. At one point, she told me that the prayers slowed down to such an extent that there was a pause between the words .... a silence ... and the silence became so absorbing that she actually preferred to abide in that silence more than saying the words. In that silence, she discovered a great peace, which you expressed in another of your quotes (so I lied :biggrin: and the last quote was not the last quote of yours that I referenced:biggrin: ): "The restraint of rising impressions brings about an undisturbed flow of tranquility."

That peace/tranquility in the silence is where the "magick starts" (as BigJohn frequently says and with which I agree completely).

QUOTE 3 EXCERPT: You are raising some very interesting points.

What is your understanding of "self, no self. Mind and no mind"?

You wrote that "Thoughts arise because self is in and of the mind". There are some who believe differently, as in the case of a previous poster who wrote "Stop thought and there is no mind". How can one resolve such differences?

I agree with you that self-awareness is indeed a very integral factor in this discovery process.

QUOTE 4 EXCERPT: Even before reading your post, I raised the subject of dreams and the unconscious in my response to Iamthat ... so it would seem appropriate to include dreams and the unconscious in this discussion thread as well.

Since you are very familiar with Carl Jung, you have probably read his autobiography (Memories, Dreams, Reflections) and are aware of the importance that he attached to dreams. Having practiced conscious sleep for years, I too have studied dreams to a significant degree and similarly attach great importance to them particularly in revealing the unconscious pressures that trigger them.

My experience has indicated that there are various levels of dreams, and I'm sure that others could come up with other categories as well.

1. Some dreams are very obvious reflections on conscious desires or events that transpired in one's daily life. Those are somewhat obvious and I will not dwell on them.

2. Some are unconscious triggers that may not be obvious at first but whose message is clear upon reflection.

3. Some are symbolic and often are unconscious pressures that must be interpreted via reflection. They often apply to something that we don't want to acknowledge in ourselves and hence are presented symbolically.

4. Then there are revelatory/visionary "dreams" that are on an entirely different level.

The unconscious triggers are often the most fascinating and revealing. Since you are a Jungian enthusiast, you are probably familiar with how Jung developed his theories on the "complexes". He did word-association experiments with people and occasionally noticed long unmistakable pauses between words of which the participating person was not even aware until the tape was played back and the pause was undeniable. Since the subject indicated that he/she was not mentally editing the response, it became clear that unconscious activity was taking place. Dreams often reveal those aspects of the unconscious.

Dreams include not only thoughts but visual activity. I'm not sure if we should call those "thoughts" or broaden the discussion to include "mental activity" such as visual projections.

In any case,I do agree with you that dreams and the unconscious should be included in this discussion as their origins are indeed similar in many ways to what most simply call "thoughts". :thumbsup:

If we look at it from the psychological perspective, and for Advaita that would be the Samkhya psychological model, there are the external organs (senses) and the internal organ (mind). Whether it's external or internal stimuli it's all qualia and in this respect thought is no different than sight, sound, smell, taste, touch or emotion. It all results in a direct experience (qualia).

That seems easy enough to wrap one's mind around for waking and dreaming state, but what about deep sleep? Some would say it's an experience of absence and since in essence that's a state of no-mind that seems to imply qualia - direct experience - is not of mind.

This isn't controversial from my perspective. I'm just trying to walk it through at a high level, pointing to what is usually pointed to because it cannot be adequately expressed in language.

The only real difference seems to be how dreams and thoughts are 'presented' or how they enter into our conscious, they certainly have the same 'source' and 'appear' for the same reasons. The consciousness of the ego/Ahamkara seems to be more literal while dreams can be more symbolic or pictorial, so perhaps it's more about how the differences in 'language' between the waking and the asleep conscious.

Opening up the thread a little might be worth the explore.

There's certainly much more activity going on with the unconscious and the conscious in any state of consciousness, whether that's awake, asleep or somewhere in between. A Spanish psychologist that said that in the decision-making process there is a 'committee' of aspects of the unconscious making the decision, and which 'members' are 'present' depends on the nature of the decision.

I agree, although regarding terminology I usually prefer subconscious/superconscious to unconscious.

So the subconscious relates to the samskaras (subtle impressions and tendencies) brought over from past incarnations as well as those generated within this lifetime. These will produce thoughts and responses for reasons we may not consciously be aware of.

And superconscious relates to those thoughts and impressions which originate from the Higher Self or spiritual intuition.

Your explanation makes good sense. Sometimes we see the mind as the enemy to be conquered, but really it is a tool to be used wisely and appropriately.

I can relate to this from using mantras. Sometimes we can reach a stage where the mantra itself becomes another mental disturbance, and it is far more preferable to let go of the mantra and abide in the silence.

Which reminds me of something said by Lahiri Mahasaya. There can be a tendency in Kriya Yoga practice to seek ever more complicated Kriya techniques and do multiple repetitions, but Lahiri Mahasaya said "One should do what comes easily and without strain. Do not disturb tranquility by doing lots of kriyas."

In other words, once we have reached the silence just rest there, in Beingness (Parvastha).

Peace