The Crown Is The Destination Not a Chakra to Open
 

This is a common misconception. The experience of an "open" crown chakra is actually the brow chakra connecting to the crown. When Kundalini pierces the crown the soul in human embodiment is completed, fulfilled, perfected, permanently united to the cosmos - and all the chakras below are immediately fully opened and perfected. And the human experience becomes SATCHITANANDA - freedom from illusion, mergence in pure consciousness, and bliss. All that keeps the soul connected to the human body at this stage is a desire to help and a love for others still stuck in the chakras below.

There is nothing wrong with using spiritual practices that purport to "open" the crown chakra, as these will facilitate the opening of the brow. However the piercing of the crown is a gift of grace from the Universe, from the Divine, not an act of will by the individual soul.

www.blue-star.org

That's an interesting take on things. How does this interpretation explain the higher 'non-body' chakras? I learned that there are 14 chakras total but others postulate as many as 21.

Indeed, comes from stuff like this:



... think I posted that before...


... or more. :) Waldo Vieira says at least thirty of significance (from personal experiment), a teacher of mine said Cindy Dale's 32-chakra system definitely had something to it, and Greenwell, in combing the scriptures, came up with a possible total of 43, but many minor ones included in that.

As for the crown/Sahasrara, it certainly doesn't behave like the other chakras, but I still believe it can be opened with practices in itself. (It does depend on the state of one's conscience.) The opening of it doesn't mean divine union 'sat-chit-ananda' occurs immediately at that moment IMO, but simply that it becomes possible. In kundalini the skull plates can shift to help energy through the crown. There is more beyond the bodily crown. Just my opinion though.

Thanks for that. I like the pic and the info.

Some sacred texts speak only of six chakras because these are the most important ones for 99.9% of the human race. and of these six, the brow is the one that facilitates development of the ones below.

My information comes from my teacher who speaks from direct experience not research.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. Healers often confuse gross energy functions of the chakras with their higher spiritual functions. For spiritual development the seven chakras are the most important ones.

Because this is our reality, because we are spiritual beings (souls) manifesting in a human experience, those who have experienced all seven have shared their knowledge with others and it has been handed down in every culture and age in one form or another. When I read a book by Hermes from ancient Egypt I thought my own teacher could have written this. They are speaking from the same awareness. But of course along the way this knowledge becomes distorted, like the game broken telephone. I feel very fortunate to know someone who can tell me the truth, which is very simple yet profound. The complication comes in the retellings (broken telephone phenomenon).

and then there are other barriers to receiving the truth...

As I experience my own chakras and awakenings, his teachings spring to life in me and in the world around me which changes as I change. And so it is with any teaching. The real test is to experience their truth for yourself.

I'm well aware of this... ah well, I guess the bias against people who both know how to research and how to do the actual work is occasionally quite strong these days, and of course the tendency to label as 'distorted misinformation' anything that contradicts one's favoured interpretations has never gone out of style. One has a perfect right to be biased, but it doesn't make for a very sociable time.


Welcome. That's a Rajasthani print from the 18th c. -- here's one from Nepal 19th c. showing a similar approach:



So who do you know who likes 21 chakras? :)

Thanks guys this is great.
Spiritlite.

I don't know if it's great or not, but it seems to me we are expected to take Sri whatsisname's word as gospel.

Seven chakras in the human experience, which are also seven worlds/ dimensions (lokas, in Sanscrit); seven chakras in the sub-human experience which are the hellish worlds (talas); and seven in the post-enlightenment experience which are the celestial worlds. Beyond these is the nameless, formless void which cannot be experienced because it is completely beyond ego. Ego needs the chakras in order to experience and express life. All of this is beyond the reach of the average person. The Supreme needs the ego in order to experience itself. Seven chakras are what we use every day and what we need to focus on in order to evolve. The rest is philosophy and intellectual curiosity and other agendas.

I'm not interested in splitting hairs for other agendas or getting into debates about authenticity. Those who are interested in consciously working on their evolution will be curious and test it out for themselves. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding. It doesn't matter in the end what you believe in, but what you express. Thank you Spiritlite for appreciating. I will not respond to disrespectful comments (but moderators may).

Well if you don't want such debates, why raise the question of authenticity? As you did here:


In other words you have the truth, and everyone else has an inauthentic "broken telephone".

And furthermore, you have experience, and everyone else is just guessing from scriptures and has doubtful agendas.

And if we disagree with this we are being "disrespectful".

I second the view of Gem. :)

I don't think it is authentic.

I have no idea -- I think it sounds like workable stuff and could well be good. Is it the one and only truth? Nah.

http://www.iamuniversity.org/iamu/

I don't necessarily agree with any of it...just something I stumbled upon.

Prokopton,

Truth is truth but it can be packaged in lots of ways and has been and this is because people want to make money, have power, or have misunderstood part of it etc. This has always been so. It's time for light to enter and demystify all of it!

I do have personal experience of the chakras but I never wrote that I am the only one who has them. I speak from my own authentic experience and interpretation of the model Sri Vasudeva has freely given and I try to offer suggestions as to how anyone who is interested can recognize their own experience of the truth. The mystical experiences human beings have speak for themselves as evidence of the true nature of reality. When a best model to explain them is available, all other models are immediately understood. This is the wisdom of "that which if you know you know everything else." That has been my experience. I seek to harmonize not compromise truth. What Sri Vasudeva teaches are the ABC's of life. Those whose minds and hearts are open will recognize and appreciate that.

Anyone is free to disagree with me but not to write to me in an obnoxious way as per the rules of this forum. We can agree to disagree. Debating truth is a waste of my time. I'm more interested in helping people who want to be helped to experience their own reality.

Finally, as to your last comment, truth is truth - it is not up to a vote.

Hmm, have not heard of them... tbh not quite my cup of the green stuff personally.

@Uma


As do I... it's the fact that the first thing clattering from your keyboard at a tiny disagreement with your Capital T Truth is insinuation of various kinds of falsehood that I find offputting -- still, if you want to continue implying that everyone who disagrees with what you feel is true is power-hungry, money-grubbing, doesn't get it, is closed-minded, etc., then we certainly can agree to disagree! I will leave you to your much-prized rectitude.

Interesting that the topic has of chakras is now a debate, I love it, debates are good.
Spiritlite.

If there is a debate then you are debating with the entire world, since this truth has been recognized since ancient times. See http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=17220

Uh-oh, I thought you might be loading all those images to make a case...

And the human experience becomes SATCHITANANDA - freedom from illusion, mergence in pure consciousness, and bliss
All that keeps the soul connected to the human body at this stage is a desire to help and a love for others still stuck in the chakras below.
Uma

If you think about the statement I hilited, you can see that it sends the message that there is no enjoyment in life itself and that the goal of the devotee is to transcend any love for the beauty of life as it is, for what you define as bliss and pure consciousness.
I have found that bliss can be found within life itself and I haven't clue if my chakras are opened, closed or out for repairs.
The message is disturbing IMO and misleading to those who are seekers.

James

10 things about chakras and kundalini
 

I also really think someone ought to point out:

1. That although there are many suggestive images, in many cases we don't have enough evidence to be certain that kundalini was meant. (Although in some we do.) -- I'm talking rigorously certain here. Greenwell gives the example of Jiyu Kennett Roshi, an enlightened Zen Meditator, as kundalini, but reading carefully the process is possibly rather different. We still need to know more, that is, if we care about really looking at evidence. Which we ought to.

2. There are numerous other energies running through the human soul system apart from kundalini itself.

3. It is definitely the case that some uses of snake imagery do not refer to kundalini.

4. This being a thread about chakras, it is also the case that not every civilization used a chakra system in order get the kundalini to rise, and the ones that did had different ideas about how to use them.

5. It is not necessarily the case that every culture and every spirituality makes use of kundalini. From our present position this is a hypothesis... we need to do more work on this before we know what we are talking about as a species.

And BTW I speak as a confirmed believer in cross-cultural kundalini phenomena. Further:

6. I do know of Kundalini in India, China, Greece, Egypt, Christian systems, and some local/indigenous spiritual groups around the world, and would consider those cases solid. I don't know much about Tibet but I'd be astonished if someone couldn't show that, seeing as how the tradition is live. Also the European alchemical tradition, that's very solid.

7. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that kundalini occurs naturally and is not inherently a cultural phenomenon, because it can occur spontaneously in people who know nothing about it, and are not even 'spiritual', as a completely natural upshot of nervous system behaviour.

8. There are some very intriguing and definite cross-cultural discoveries which show the knowledge of energy and many other things is discovered in parallel rather than simply spreading by word of mouth.

9. We are beginning to have some definite understanding of the phenomenon from a scientific point of view, both psychological and biological.

But I will end with:

10. There isn't enough definite knowledge available to state for certain 'one true correct' theory of kundalini, even within a tradition much less across them. We are at the beginning of our understanding here, and in order not to shortchange ourselves and to really know what we are trying to find out, rather than just guessing, we have to admit what we don't know at present, and be patient as we wait for more info. Something suggestive does not by any means equal anything definite. In the meantime, all lineages in the world that work with kundalini and have a definite system that works are valuable and must continue their work.

All that said, if anyone claimed that kundalini was a miraculous process that totally changes a person, undoubtedly connects them with the divine in the most intimate of manners, absolutely is natural to all of us, certainly is cross-cultural, definitely has an effect on the biology as well as the spirit, explains a great deal of what the hell some traditions have been pointing at for thousands of years, and is absolutely a stunning, amazing, miraculous, spiritual adventure -- no argument from me. And that is pretty good going in itself.

In Prokopton's words:

"All that said, if anyone claimed that kundalini was a miraculous process that totally changes a person, undoubtedly connects them with the divine in the most intimate of manners, absolutely is natural to all of us, certainly is cross-cultural, definitely has an effect on the biology as well as the spirit, explains a great deal of what the hell some traditions have been pointing at for thousands of years, and is absolutely a stunning, amazing, miraculous, spiritual adventure -- no argument from me. And that is pretty good going in itself."

YES 100% to the above - I do claim it!!! And more besides.....

Hi James,
You draw an understandable conclusion. The space of SATCHITANANDA is a space of bliss. Love is an emotion, and an energy emanation. It is possible to exist outside of that energy and just "BE". Ask anyone who understands Zen. The enlightened one is able to jump in and out of the space. That is why in the crown, one has infinite choices and can be detached from the world, or can choose to participate fully in it. In the ordinary human consciousness we are so caught up in the emotions, we do not see them as separate to ourselves. Thanks for bringing this up so I could clarify.

The crown chakra actually exists between the VOID of the egoless state and the experience of having form - any energy form. Attachment brings us back again and again to this world and love is the last attachment, the last umbilical chord to consciousness in a form. But I'm not getting into talking about VOID in this thread - that's all philosophy. Just getting to the crown is hard enough!

Yes I think we knew that. :)


... that's the part makes me sigh. Belief and even personal experience cannot show some things, not yet. This is just the way human knowledge progresses, never all in a flash.

Clearly you are a 'true believer' in the particular way you go. I respect that... but it's so important to see the multiplicity of the kundalini process above all. It's not just one thing one way. That way lies fundamentalism.

But what you implied earlier is that if this enlightened one choses to participate fully in life it is only to help others escape it. That implies that life or an attachment to life (which is a love for life IMO) needs to be transcended so that one can find this other bliss you speak of.........................I've been around a long time and have seen and done many things and that is not what life is about.
IMHO

I'm not talking about renunciation, negating the world, living in a cave somewhere. I'm talking about living FULLY in the world from a space of transcendence. Sri Vasudeva calls it living in the eye of the hurricane. I have also seen this in action and I have glimpsed tiny pieces of it myself. All enlightened beings who know the space I speak of speak of the same experience. It is our home, our source. When we express the fullness of our being through all our chakras, it impacts on our world in a much greater way and in the experience of our world - everything is brighter, clearer and light is everywhere. (Of course for those who choose the cave, it is there also.)

The reason so many ascended Kundalini images look like sun worship is because the sun is a beautiful metaphor of our source. We are rays of one sun. Just as the sun and rays are one, so too we are one. This is the experience of enlightened consciousness, being in the crown chakra. To live on earth from such a space one has to engage the other chakras as well. The reason we live on earth in ordinary consciousness is work out karma from the first three chakras, the physical ones. The rest can be worked out in other realms.

The fact that we all dream or know what dreaming is, means there are other states of consciousness. Dreaming is mind. Subconscious space is memory, akasha. I'm saying these are also worlds and require some kind of energy form to exist in them.

In the crown space all forms are purified. The amazing thing is that all of us glimpse some tiny bit of this but we may not give attention to it. The identification with the body and mind is so powerful.

Dare to seek it. Ask the universe for a glimpse. You will get a response. There is nothing to be afraid of.

Transcending the world .....what exactly does that mean to you?
What does attachment mean to you? or detachment?
What does 'not identify with body and form' mean to you?
and lastly.....dare to seek what?

James

Hi James,

Thankyou for these questions. I'll try to explain...


It means to me being a space where I am separate to thoughts and emotions and body, a space of stillness, just witnessing, beingness. I have glimpsed this space. I wouldn't have believed it is possible to exist like this, but it is. It's an interdimensional space. Sounds like science fiction doesn't it? I guess it can be approximated through other, more ordinary experiences. So there is out of body experiences, which quite a few people on this forum have had, and going deeper there are varying degrees to which one can transcend (warp drive out of) the mental bodies as well. I'm not fully realized so I wouldn't try to explain what I don't know for myself. In the transcendental space, one feels like the driver of a complex vehicle within a vehicle, so this is the seat of power. I've struggled with emotional eating all my life but that time I was in this space, I could see my thoughts in slow motion and could easily choose which ones to accept or reject. As a result I effortlessly lost 30lbs. In one month, looked radiant and everyone wanted to know my secret. However I had not attained the crown and could not maintain it, so before I knew it (it took over a year) I fell back into the pull of body and mind consciousness and put all the weight back on. This to me is the essence of paradise lost, being stuck in the gravity of form with no way to master my own mind and body. I wish that everyone could have this experience. The world would be a more peaceful, loving space.

Attachment is desire or aversion. I can be "I want" "I hate" or "I am XYZ". It's the ego, the part of me that is the experiencer pulling or pushing something towards me energetically. The "middle way" of Buddhism is "I don't care" or it can manifest as unconditional love, which is love with no strings attached. As long as there is attachment, there needs to be an attachee, an experiencer or ego, and therefore a form in which this ego can express its attachment. In the enlightened state, it is said that the karmic seeds of attachment are there in the causal body but they have no effect. In simple words, if someone who murdered me in a past life shows up in this one and part of me remembers them and some feeling of aversion rises up in the mind, if I am in the zone of detachment, I can witness the feeling as energy, not met, and I can transform it or disolve it - it has no power over me. Sri Vasudeva cslls this an aspect of emotional intelligence and it's one of the great perks of enlightened consciousness.


Under a super electron microscope the physical world is reveales as energy, and some of the more enlightened (and daring) quantum physicists are saying that this energy comes from a "nothing", goes back into it and comes out of it again...so there is an idea of the source. Space and time are products of form. Without the movement of planets and suns we could have no concept of time. Similarly with form, from intention to energy to the elements...we get forms. This is devolution and it is encoded in the story of Genesis of how the world was created - not in 7 days but in 7 stages, from crown chakrq to root chakra. Evolution is the journey of Spirit (Kundalini) back to the crown. At the crown there is a choice - dissolve into formlessness and merge with the void, or, turn back and reenter the world of forms from a transcended awareness, to help others who are still struggling. A being such as this would not identify with their form. As Jesus said, "I and my Father are one.". The I has become the "we" of collective consciousness (all of us and everything put together). This is to attain a superhuman state whilst in a human body, and in the mental bodies inside the human one.


Well all of the above...seek to know who or what you truly are. Think of how you thought of yourself and your world as a child and compare it to what you know now...and the invitation is to not stop there but to go inward and swim in the ocean of your being. The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. I know people who dared to give it a shot and boy were they surprised when magical things startes happening in their lives - wow this is for real! The universe awaits your command. It won't create the proof unless you ask for it and show you mean it.

Well I invested a lot into this, hopefully not for nothing. I may not reply for a while because I'm packing now to go on a trip but I'll check in in a couple of days. I am actually going to a retreat hosted by Sri Vasudeva and will be meditating and reiking in a very high energy field, so if anyone wants me to pray for their transformation into higher consciousness, I'll be happy to add it to my own prayers for myself.

Uma, sounds like you'll have a good retreat coming up.

When you have time, it would be great if you'd address the 10 points I gave earlier in the thread.

Hi Uma,
Thank you for explaining in more depth the meaning behind certain phrases you have made.
I'm really not asking to learn anything, I just feel it is hard to have a discussion if i assuming what you mean by these things.
There is a lot I can say in reply to your response but what seems adequate at this time is to just say that I hope you have a great retreat and by all means feel free to pray for me.
It brings me to higher consciousness just knowing that you care enough to pray for me to feel what you feel. And I believe you really do care.......so mission accomplished already. :smile:
Thank you for the discussion....much love......:hug3:
Blessings, James

Prokopon,

I resent being labelled, especially as a fundamentalist which sounds like someone who is stuck in dogma. I am always reading new things and listening to new ideas and open to new experiences. I'm writing on this forum to present my ideas and my interpretations of ideas I have tested out on myself.
I'm trying to invite people to look at what they already know to be true and see if it doesn't relate to something that is common to everybody. For me, the model for that is Sri Vasudevw's teachings. He himself wasn't interested in Kundalini until Kundalini took hold of his life.

There is a way for each person and for each chakra that person is more attached to. Navel chakra people prefer physical activity, sporte, martial arts, hatha yoga... They get into the zone by working to a point where physical expeience jumps into energy and into higher awareness.

Then there are emotional people who love the way of the heart chakra, prqying, singing, doing service for others. Mother Teresa is a prime example, and through her love attained high awareness and experiences of her inner divinity.

Then there are brow chakra people, the intellectuals who study and question and anlalyze and become so knowledgeable it becomes innate, a part of their being.

Etc.....and a combination as well.

I'm saying Kundalini is both a pathway into the crown experience and the reality of who we are. It depends where you're situated. The greatest question a person can ask is "WHO AM I?"

Ok I will :smile:

Ok I will, so sweet of you James. I write more than you ask for the benefit of others reading.

Bye bye everybody...

Well that's not exactly what I said -- what I said was that insisting on the 'truth' of something and ignoring all evidence to the contrary leads in the direction of fundamentalism. I think that's a valid observation. And if one believes that one's own way is the only correct one, it can go in that direction. Even more important than that though, there is a loss of opportunity to see how truly different things interact. One can certainly see 'spiritual greats' from all cultures according to chakra psychology, but equally, one has to be interested in the way they see themselves, especially if they have achieved something.

Even saying that all people have their own particular favored chakra is a statement that you need to think about carefully. A teacher of mine, Glenn Morris, did major research on just that question. It's a complex one -- people tend to favour a certain chakra, but equally, spiritual experience tends to even out their activation and needs to in fact. The Hesychasm approach certainly would bear out the heart thing... but spanish swordsmen use the heart chakra as their basis. To get real usable cross-cultural stuff here is quite a big job.

Everyone does have a way, but the ways often don't resemble each other... to separate one's own personal way from what we can generally say is key. To use one of your examples, we can say that Teresa of Avila had kundalini of some kind -- but can't say for sure that what she perceived as an angel was 'not really an angel', simply because angels don't happen to be part of our personal belief system. People do encounter them, and aver that they are more than metaphors. People often experience beings as part of the kundalini process, and they often help with energetic openings. If you're going to make a general statement of truth, that's important to bear in mind.

Kundalini is going to require a lot of research before we "know" some of the things that are definitely true about it in all cases, not just individual ones. And as I was trying to say, it's quite amazing enough without making unsubstantiable claims, or reducing the whole thing to only one way of seeing. It's a very big phenomenon we're dealing with here.

Well I look forward to your thoughts.

reply to Prokopton's 10 points
 

Hi Prokopton,

Here are my responses:


I'm not familiar with these books. My teacher recommends this one: http://www.amazon.ca/Serpent-Power-S.../dp/0486230589 I thought the relationship between the images I posted are pretty self-explanatory. The recognition comes with the experience of it, then images are recognized as a human interpretation (anthropomorphism, poetry, sacred geometry, vision...) of an inner experience. As Norththrope Frye once said, humanity thinks in metaphor (this is like that). I don't know what else to say to this.


Well, as I understand it - all is energy. There are different names for the function of the energy or the manifestation of the energy. Kundalini is prana (chi/qi/universal life force energy) manifesting in the human being when the sushumna is awakened (that's the central subtle channel in the spine). In ordinary, unawakened consciousness, Kundalini is active only to keep the body alive and there is very little spiritual evolution activity going on or rather it's mostly happening on the outside as life tries to knock some sense into the person. It is said that the spiritual journey really begins with awakened Kundalini. That's when the soul has an opportunity to become a CONSCIOUS co-creating partner with its/his/her own self-evolution.


Not every image of a snake is a reference to Kundalini, of course.


I agree that not every civilization used a chakra system in their interpretation of what was happening in the spiritual experience. Not every person is even aware they have chakras. Nonetheless chakras do exist in every person and Kundalini is the basis of all spiritual experiences. " A rose by any other name still smells as sweet." Some religions only focus on the crown chakra or the heart. I think a lot of the confusion arises because the chakras have many functions, not only as vortexes of energy and information, but each is a transformer for spiritual expression, a stage of evolution, and a realm or dimension. But if you read autobiographies of mystics who describe their experience, there is commonality. The greatest degree of difference between experiences are in the lower chakras, but in the crown, there is oneness and one experience common to all.

BTW I learned from an archeology class I once took how religions revere the sacred whatever form it takes, which is why archeologists find churches built on top of pagan spaces. And it could be an expropriation too or a way to gain acceptance in the early missionary days. The celtic iconography seen in the book of Kells, which is an ancient handpainted Bible, combines early Christian and ancient pagan images - lots of spirals and serpents. I believe that Christianity demonized the serpent power only to expropriate it as the Holy Spirit. Only the elite may have understood its esoteric significance. The gnostics had a better grasp, but they did a lot of expropriating too. I'm not an expert on these matters but it is the way of the world, consistent with the colonizing mentality we still see today.


(see my comments for #4)


I think someone started to make a cross cultural film about the serpent power experience.


Agree 100% and yet medical science denies its existence. I'm sure many people have been labelled insane, when it was really not a psychotic but a spiritual experience. BTW not all Kundalini experiences are so dramatic - it depends on where the person is blocked and how the energy was awakened. On the other hand, there is a fine line between enlightenment and madness. It's important to be grounded, and at that level, IMHO to have a competent master to guide you.


Well, truth is truth. By the same token look at the names for mother around the world. They all sound more or less like "mama" because that's usually the first word baby says. Human beings share a common spiritual anatomy.


Good! It's about time!


To each his own, however for me, getting the info directly from one who has experienced full awakening of all the chakras is more reliable than research, authority or tradition. More than that, I feel it myself, and he inspires the energy flow within me as well as the understanding of what exactly is happening to me. I am not asking anyone to take my word for it, only to be open to the possibility and if the desire is there, to seek it intelligently. In the words of my teacher, Sri Vasudeva:



Thanks for your interest Prokopton which gives me an opportunity to share. :smile:

The Joy of Living in the Crown
 

We haven't explored what crown chakra consciousness is yet...that's the whole point of this thread. when the crown is attained all the chakras have the capacity to open up completely. At the root chakra, full expression of being grounded firmly on the earth plane; at the sexual centre lust no longer has control over you, the enlightened one is able to use this energy in all kinds of ways bringing it to any other chakra at will; at the navel, there is mastery over the body's vitality; at the heart only the purest expressions of love, unconditional, compassionate, selfless and these manifest even through the other emotions - emotions themselves become a tool in the human experience not something to be hijacked by; at the throat, pure communication and listening; at the brow mastery of intellect, concentration, discernment, intuitive power, leadership, the best kind; at the crown bliss, connectedness with all of life. The journey to the crown is a journey to complete self mastery and perfection of all the chakras. This is an evolutionary journey, an inner journey, a journey of lifetimes. This is what life's all about.

@Uma, well I doubt the conversation can go much further, you'll be relieved to hear! I really don't think you are seeing much of what I'm saying...

Your remarks on expropriation are correct though, no doubt about that, BTW, and there is also the very new age-sounding question of possible energy currents in the earth etc. Just because I don't think kundalini is necessarily and obviously the only and universal spiritual form, doesn't mean I think it won't travel... there is definite evidence of it in numerous places, as I mentioned! But not everywhere -- this is my point.

You should obviously know that I have personal experience of kundalini as well, and have been working with it for many years. I have met kundalini masters as you have, too. (You could check this.) This not about some weird books-vs.-experiences thing! What it's about is not operating on a faith-based approach, which I prefer not to do. We do not know whether kundalini is meant in certain spiritual images, without further proof, just because it looks as if it might be -- from my point of view, it seems a good idea to admit it!

It's not a question of which book to read. (Although yes, Avalon is still recommended by many.) You wouldn't have to read the books I mentioned to get the point I was making -- one which perhaps you'd rather not get! It's so simple -- comparing enlightenment experiences carefully, you do not always see kundalini. Certainly not in any obvious or conclusive way. Again that's enlightenment experiences -- awakening and realization experiences as reported by people who have them. Sometimes there is a definite kundalini shape to the experience -- sometimes not. Kundalini is widespread but not universal, so far as we know, based on talking to people who are willing to communicate their enlightenment experiences.

It's a very simple truth. No-one in the world who actually is interested in the truth could say, "I have experienced kundalini and therefore I know that this picture drawn by a 5-year-old, or this Sumerian image, or this river (??) exhibits kundalini." Of course one doesn't know! Things are not so simple, unless you simply decide that they are, but that is not the way human knowledge advances, with people simply deciding what is true! And certainly no-one could ever say "all spiritual experiences are based on kundalini", except as a pure guess. We haven't talked to enough people yet to know. We know it does appear in a lot of interestingly far-flung places... but we need to know more. A lot more!


No, I am not talking about different names only. The energy of kundalini is a certain energy, and there are other energies too. Kundalini is not a name for all energies and all energetic processes. Spiritual anatomy is a complex topic!This post is too long to get into that I think.


Similarly, the 'agreements between mystics worldwide' thing is very overdone nowadays -- mystics have also been arguing for millennia over the end result of their experiences and the nature of the ultimate (check out the Buddhist v. Hindu arguments for a start) and indeed the disagreements outnumber the agreements. Again, I'm afraid these are the facts! The faith in one system that always appears in different variations is for me just a faith. Humanity is so much more complicated and interestingly so, if you can get used to the mess!

For me your last answer is rather telling -



But "getting the info from one who has experienced" is exactly what I'm referring to, of course! I'm saying that many people who have major spiritual awakenings sometimes report a great difference from the kundalini approach, and I hardly think devaluing their experiences just to fit in with a preconceived notion of 'universal kundalini' is going to help see the real picture.

In fact it's quite hard to work out what even you think you're saying here... you say "getting the info directly from one who has experienced" is more important than "research", "authority", or "tradition". But Uma, what "research" could I be talking about other than 'getting info' from people who have experience? (As well as taking the odd blood test of course... ^_^). And what could "authority" be, except listening carefully to a teacher, exactly as you do, who has such experience? And what is "tradition" but a way of passing down the methods that people discover -- people who 'have experienced' -- for the next generation to use, exactly as your teacher does for you? It seems you are interested in "research, authority and tradition", after all!

When you 'get the info from one who has experienced', you are doing exactly what I mean by 'research'. Only, I am suggesting that if you are trying to draw general conclusions for the whole of humanity (let alone the whole universe), rather than simply getting answers that work for you personally, then the info-getting needs to be done widely, rigorously, and with an open mind, in the interests of generating real knowledge rather than a one-sided picture with many guesses, propped up by faith or what sounds good. I think the picture that could be built by collating the info more widely and carefully is more interesting than simply assuming that we know things which no-one could know for certain, no matter what their experiences are.

This doesn't change the fact that one's experience is real! Of course not. But other people have real experiences too. And (unless we are going to say everyone else's experience is not real) we need to do the real work of comparing and trying to understand the links and differences between paths, rather than simply saying we already know, when we plainly do not!

I'll leave it there, unless you're super-keen for more conversation on this... did you do your retreat yet? If so I hope it went well...

I had a great time at the retreat Prokopon. What I get from my teacher is not merely intellectual knowledge but much grace, that which extends far beyond mental fluctuations. Thank you for your interest. Best wishes to you.

Uma and Proktopon, I thank you for this thread. It has been invaluable to me, watching from the sidelines. It's like you two are the argument in my own head. LOL

Uma, I've spent a lot of time these last few days going through your web site, and I absolutely love it. You write beautifully, and clicking on the button every day to get a new card has been an amazing experience - every day has told me just the right message I needed, at that moment. Like magic.

I think what Proktopon is saying, is that you need no guru. Sri V-whats' his name... he's wonderful. Totally get why you appreciate his energy. We all need teachers in our journey. I'm just sensing................

You don't need him anymore.

Prokopton, I'm drawn in particular by what you've been saying about how the serpent images don't necessarily mean kundalini. That was my first guess, what they meant, when I first started seeing dragons and serpents everywhere I went, and started to research it. But yeah, regardless of what I read, my gut has been saying it's that... but more than that. There's, of course, the serpent eating it's tale, the beginning and the end. There's the serpent being cast down to hell (on the cross) but that to me is also about kundalini.. or Aeons sinking lower into materiality. It is a durable symbol, with many meanings.

I'm tired, so I probably shouldn't be posting tonight. So I'll stop there. Really, this was mostly meant as a big thanks!

Actually, why are there no more dragons? They aren't mythical creatures. I believe I read somewhere, they truly did exist at one time - though maybe not spouting fire out their mouth.

Maybe dragons are... an archetype.

I would certainly hope so! And of course, what many others get from their teachers, plural (including me from the ones I have had) is the same in that respect, whether one chooses the word 'grace', the word 'shaktipat', or whatever. It would indeed be a strange world if yours was the only teacher of any achievement! What a lopsided thing that would be.

And that goes for me too of course, which is why I just said in my past post:


Etc.


No not exactly -- I think we do need often teachers and role models who can deliver energy and knowledge. But none of them knows everything, they often contradict each other, and the best of them will happily admit this in my opinion! Like Uma, I had an excellent kundalini teacher (Glenn Morris) who has gone on to be the root of many a lineage and was incredibly gifted at syncretism. However, he never claimed his way was the only true way! Simply one way that worked, and a living and dynamic and evolving way at that.

Despite what some might say on faith grounds, there are limits to our actual knowledge on certain matters. These are the facts, and they are not hard to grasp. And it's only by recognizing such limits that we can learn anything new. The alternative is to say that everything important is already known... at that point, openness to life seems to stop though.

As we were saying at the beginning of the thread, athribiristan and I if I remember right, the chakra-counts of different teachers vary, to take only one small example. (And these are still the teachers who teach about chakras, as some don't.) And this goes for teachers who have had kundalini awakenings, are able to pass energy, and have loyal and enlightened students, just as with Uma's teacher. Unless we are simply going to assume that only one person's experience is absolutely right and all the rest are wrong (which would be a bad idea if the truth interests us), all the experiences of all the people who have kundalini and other sorts of awakening are part of the full picture, not only one model of how and why awakening happens.

Naturally, and I speak hypothetically, some people will happily say that their teacher is correct and all the others are wrong! (What a strange coincidence, that they happen to be following the only correct way! ^_^). But clearly, the picture is more complicated in actual fact. The theory of chakras and kundalini is actually in its early stages. We will have to be carefuly to shepherd it through the dark ages upcoming, because we do have many methods which work and many theories that tell some of the story, and they are all very precious and worthwhile. But 'the full tale is known to none'. We can say 'according to my tradition, which I know has truth in it', and that's one thing. We can't say, 'I have the truth and the whole truth'!

We can post pictures of rivers saying they might resemble something about kundalini. We can't say that the path of a river is kundalini -- not unless we want to abandon the truth for fantasy!


Of course they don't have to, as Uma agreed! If you were in rural Greece 100 years ago, in a farm cottage, and a snake happened to appear on the floor, they would instantly set up a shrine where they saw it. They believed (and some probably still do) that the spirit of a house can appear in the form of a snake. Greek heroes were often said to appear as snakes or to be worshiped in snake form. This is not k-related. Similarly with the many wonderful Egyptian snake-deities. The Uraeus is probably k-related IMO, but there are many others that seem different.

But we must beware of this tendency to say we know for sure either way! We often simply do not and must admit it! The new age is full of people confidently stating that an image is definitely thus-and-so, when no-one knows. I'm sure you know the nagas from Hindu and Buddhist myth:



Some say have to do with kundalini, others deny this. There is a similar-looking fellow in Greek myth whose name is Cecrops:



... but is he related? We don't know, nor do we know his relationship to kundalini. We can guess, but we don't know. In other cases we have more definite information, usually because there is writing about actual spiritual tradition that goes with the image. Without that, we can say it might be this or that, but we can't assume! That is not how one discovers the truth, simply to assume it!


Yes there are still rumours of such dragons. In Welsh folklore you hear things about some sorts of strange dragon up until quite recently if I recall -- I can search out the reference if you like. Yes, the association with fire seems quite spurious, usually they are water-related. The Loch Ness monster might be such an astral-etheric dragon, whose substance comes and goes -- there are many such monsters worldwide. There are also so many myths of shape-changing dragons who can assume human form... might they have to do with the nagas and with Cecrops? Well it is a possibility...

Both dragons and serpents are used to found dynasties quite a lot. In China someone would have sex with a dragon and there would be an offspring who would become emperor... the same happened with snakes in Greece, where it would be Zeus or Apollo in snake form, etc.