Suffering.
 

There is no way that I am aware to establish whether the manifestation is infinate, but consider for a moment that if it is, then it is never why does this or that appear, but it must appear otherwise the manifestation would not be infinate! If the manifestation is not infinate then there may be a different reason for suffering. There is speculation that it has some purpose or meaning, which must also appear in an infinate manifestation.

Applicable to both is the assertion that manifestation is held in place/maintained by Oneness as an automatic infinate balancing system, (symbolised by the Yin/Yang symbol) which balance may not be apparent 'locally'. With the infinate version there must be suffering so we dont have to work out other reasons why it might happen.

Also Oneness seems to have manifested something we call realization, that at least ends the suffering of feeling disconnected/separate, even though appearing as apparently many separate things. This seems to have been done by manifesting the belief that All is 'Itself' (One), and the capacity to resonate with, have faith, or trust in, that belief,
or some practise.

In my view its not just that the Universe is infinite, we live on a planet in an environment. This Locality is part of finitude and solitude.

Suffering is also Pain. Which isn't the product of misaligned desires. Misaligned desires is the cause of confusion and or the feeling of being held away from your dreams/goals.

The causes of suffering are from being stuck, being struck, and confusion + stress (lost in probabilities).

The solutions are many but in generics, being stuck requires help and strife. Being struck, physically and/or being ill, requires defensive measure or medicinal knowledge + healing, and being lost requires problem solving + mapping skills. There are also complex emotions of pain and suffering. Like the loss of our loved ones, and the culmination of suffering across time. without the ability to see the light (through the darkness)In so much as this motif applies to dark and light - and Vision, there is also the type of stress of Density and complexity. Not being able to grasp the knowledge or the course of help which can often be bigger than ourselves. So it requires help from others.

Complex emotions are not mitigated by quick simplicity and cheesy altruistic beliefs and wisdoms. It requires a coordination of a process throughout time. Where all the key points of stress and contextual problems are typified and dealt with separately and as a whole in processes of healing.

Essentially the Ego is rebirth through strife, (conflict).Or harmonization through conflict. But its dispositioned to our desires which are the background noises to the efficacy of right relationship.

I hope this helps a little bit.

We suffer by wounds....we are healed by wounds....e.g. we ingest the virus by wound(any orifice of the body is a ‘wound’)....the needle that vaccinates us is a wound(or we take medicine orally).....for Christians ‘we are healed by His wounds’.....

Mo why do you see any orifice of the body as a wound ?. I see wounds as an injury or results of an illness...

Sky123,

Admittedly it is metaphorical at best. The senses are the portals which allow entrance to the body as are wounds. It’s just my imagination running away with me...?.....:)

It's interesting how you see ' Wounds ' :smile:

Life is made of scars/memories. Without them what reason would we have to be? We just have to teach ourselves and practice the skills to turn them into positive. No problems only solutions. :wink:

By manifestation I take it you mean the universe? If so, it is not infinite and will come to an end. Only source or reality is infinite. Suffering comes from our unconscious guilt over separating from source continually rising to the surface. Then through the ego thought system we project it outwards onto the "screen" of the universe instead of confronting it and realizing it need not be.


If I'm correct in that you mean manifestation is the universe, it's not held in place by oneness, but by division and duality. Oneness is non-duality and is the truth. The universe by it's very nature is division and all of it's symbols reflect the original division -- separation from source.


The universe is an illusion, any realization of oneness here only serves the purpose of healing our perception. Nirvana, reality, source, whatever you like to call it has no need for 'realization'. It already knows everything there is to know, and has no need to experience itself as "separate things" in it all things are connected.

Suffering is far more simple. Suffering arises due to ignorance. Suffering is self-created and self-inflicted in ignorance and misunderstanding.

While suffering, by and large, ceases when the illusion of "me" shatters...suffering really does not cease by the belief that All is 'Itself' (One), and the capacity to resonate with, have faith, or trust in, that belief. It is not about belief, but profound, direct understanding. Understanding arises when you see...like when people say, "oh, I see." So look deeply at suffering (and the roots and sources of suffering) and understand it. Better yet, look deeply at the "me" and understand it.

Suffering is far more simple. Suffering arises due to ignorance. Suffering is self-created and self-inflicted in ignorance and misunderstanding.

While suffering, by and large, ceases when the illusion of "me" shatters...suffering really does not cease by the belief that All is 'Itself' (One), and the capacity to resonate with, have faith, or trust in, that belief. It is not about belief, but profound, direct understanding. Understanding arises when you see...like when people say, "oh, I see." So look deeply at suffering (and the roots and sources of suffering) and understand it. Better yet, look deeply at the "me" and understand it.

second time I've heard this today... I'll say again there are examples for example job and the guy in isaiah, both were righteous in their own right and yet through no fault of their own a great deal of suffering was brought down on them. And doubtless there have been countless others in the same boat. So to dismissively say to someone 'your fate is all your own fault' is quite mean.

I believe that was a statement about second arrow suffering. https://mindfulnessmeditation.net.au/arrow/

The parable of the second arrow is a well-known Buddhist story about dealing with suffering more skilfully. It is said the Buddha once asked a student,

‘If a person is struck by an arrow, is it painful? If the person is struck by a second arrow, is it even more painful?’

He then went on to explain,

‘In life, we can’t always control the first arrow. However, the second arrow is our reaction to the first. This second arrow is optional.’


Pain Is Inevitable; Suffering Is Optional https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ng-is-optional

“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” —Viktor Frankl

His ability to retain that degree of psycho-spiritual autonomy in the most horrific circumstances imaginable provides a remarkable example of intrapersonal strength, grace under extreme duress, the power of personal choice, and the Serenity Prayer in action.

What suffers? Is it the mind, body, something else, or all that we are? I view suffering as germane to having a body. I have heard people talk about pain deep in their soul, and while there may be incongruence that takes place deep within us, I do not feel such vacancies are visited upon the greater one-ness of being.

Most suffering is either physical, mental, or emotional. Suffering often involves pain and it is my experience that our soul, or deeper being, is inextricably made of a fabric that is rich and sweet, exuding only love. I do not feel that pure being which is within me, which is untouched by this world, is capable of experiencing pain.

Pain and suffering is transitory; it is about impeded motion, or difficult transitions. The physical body, our mind and emotions, are in constant transition, going through a process that resembles the normal curve. My deeper being exists in non-duality where transitions between opposite poles do not exist. A person can transcend their suffering if they have developed their consciousness to do such. Also a person who is suffering often finds peace from suffering when they sleep; if suffering were part of our eternal nature we would not be able to escape it.

Could you explain why you think there would be a different reason for suffering if manifestation was not infinite?

Manifestation is held in place/maintained by oneness. Not only that, oneness completely permeates and saturates manifestation because oneness is infinite. If you say manifestation is absent of oneness, then oneness is no longer infinite as it does not occupy manifestation. This would mean the manifestation is phenomenological and separate. If oneness completely saturates and permeates manifestation entirely, you could make the case that manifestation IS oneness, or manifestion is oneness appearing as manifestation

And then finally Realisation is not a manifestation. it is merely the dropping of the illusion of manifestion, realising that manifestion does not and never did exist in the way the seperate sense of self believes it to be. So in a way realisation does not exist because there was no phenomological event, it could actually be the opposite of a phenomonological event as it transcends duality, it is not linked in the causal chain that we consider to be duality

Im welcome for an alternative view as this is not a felt experience for me, atleast not right now, but it has made sense previously but unfortunately ego asserts itself lool

On another forum, somebody just linked to a video, where Nisargadatta Maharaj was quoted:

02:24 you're not experiencing suffering
02:27 you are suffering you're experiencing
02:30 which means
02:31 that there's nothing called suffering
02:38 a suffering is about an attitude in
02:40 which you meet things
02:42 it is not something that exists in
02:44 itself you cannot show a sample of
02:46 suffering
02:46 it is a state in which you are meeting
02:48 your life what he did by answering in
02:51 that way
02:51 is he gave back the power to you to say
02:54 no

Suffering is caused by negative energies. Amen

. If you work out the reasons why you're suffering you will find a solution to the suffering and hopefully suffer no more. THEN you will become one with self and not one with suffering. Becoming one with self is difficult but the reward is priceless.
The short story of the "elephant rope" is a very good read that I would recommend for anyone.https://steemit.com/motivational/@da...nt-rope-belief

An alternative view is that realisation does exist and is experienced as an actual event at a particular moment in time.

If we only know duality then all concepts of Oneness are just ideas in our head. Whatever reality we experience is based in duality.

The realisation of Oneness is more than just the dropping of the illusion of manifestation. It is a complete surrender, and at the moment of surrender we enter a state of pure emptiness. We then discover that this emptiness pervades all manifestation, without limitation, and this emptiness is our true nature. This emptiness is also fullness, because nothing can be added to it and nothing can be taken away from it.

This emptiness is experienced as an unchanging state of one thing everywhere. Before the moment of realisation this emptiness is unknown to us in our limited forms. After the moment of realisation this emptiness is our daily ever-present reality.

Just an alternative view.

Peace

A koan! :icon_thumleft:

Suffering is caused by negative energy. We suffer because we have negative energy attachments. Being positive is the only way out. Healthy mind, healthy body. Easy. Amen

I think I agree with you from a relative stand point, but isnt act of the surrendering a mere illusion also? and lastly who is doing the discovering?

Just a question, im not trying to discredit your answer! would like to know if im missing something

The difficulty with this approach is that it renders all discussion pointless. If we regard surrender as an illusion then we also accept that you and I are illusions and the question is an illusion and this forum is an illusion and there is no-one present to ask or answer anything.

There is the absolute approach which says all manifestation is an illusion, and then there is the relative approach which accepts that while it may all be an illusion, we still have to deal with manifestation on a practical level.

And while we are in the worlds of form, we have to deal with form. So you may tell yourself that your car (if you have one) is an illusion, but you still fill it up with illusory petrol. You may say that your job (if you have one) is an illusion, but you still go out to work and do what is necessary to get your pay at the end of the month.

Even Ramana Maharshi, who no doubt knew all about the illusory nature of form, still probably ate his illusory breakfast in the morning and visited his illusory bathroom, just like the rest of us.

So saying that surrender is a mere illusion done by someone who is not actually present is fine if you have already realised the absolute. But if we are stuck in the relative then surrender is an actual event within the relative done by someone who is very much present.

The mental concepts of Oneness and illusion are not the same as the realisation of Oneness and illusion.

Peace

surrender emptiness
 

Points raised here are superb and very much helpful .

Just to add to the points raised for more clarification , people at times fear the words like 'surrender' . Many a times people fill we surrender to someone with gun pointing to our head and we surrendering is something very dreadful situation and thereby they abhor the 'surrender' to God . So 'surrender' here means more 'devotion' with love to God just like lovers in a romantic situation let the lover play or parents playing with their little kids allowing kids even to kick or even slap the parent in the play. So the key word here is love / devotion. In Hinduism its called Bhakti (process of staying connected /associated with God ). We need to view the word 'surrender' in this light.

Further many a times people dread the word emptiness . Above post rightly mentions emptiness is fullness . Just to stress this point further Emptiness is emptiness of material differences of manifestations and thereby resulting separation which realizes the fullness / wholeness of underlying common unifying factor .

As long as there is life the duality and resulting separation is going to be there and there is no need for arbitrarily discarding those differences . The need is to increase our vision and ability to see the underlying commonality and act accordingly with love which pierces the veil of separation and creates joy for all in the play called life.

This is gradual and evolutionary and possible only with continuity , persistence ,perseverance , intelligence , faith ,honesty and hardwork.

Thanks, HITESH SHAH. You are right - people may not like words such as surrender and emptiness, because in everyday life surrender has connotations of weakness and helplessness, while emptiness has connotations of something bleak and meaningless.

Whereas on the spiritual journey surrender is the willingness to let go of that which is small and limited in order to experience a greater reality. And as you say, love is the key to surrender. And emptiness is that state without qualities which allows all things to be, which is our own nature.

Peace

emptiness / surrender
 

Many including myself fear & hence dislike certain terms like these . So I thought a clarification can be better for us.

Going back to the question of who is doing the discovering, this is worth considering further.

A common idea, especially in the Neo-Advaita community, is that there is no-one present, no-one to realise anything, and nothing to realise since we are already that state.

The problem with this approach is that it denies the reality of peoples' everyday experience. For most people there is definitely someone present, and that someone does not live in a state of realisation. That someone may desire realisation, hence the popularity of Neo-Advaita which suggests that realisation is available to anyone and can happen at any moment. But the intellectual arguments which people repeat are nothing to do with actual realisation.

So who is doing the discovering? We can consider a human as consciousness which may function on three separate levels.

1. Consciousness identified with personality expressing through a physical body. This seems to be where most people are at. Consciousness regards itself as a separate someone and seeks attainment.
2. Consciousness resting in itself, knowing itself to be the silent observer of personality in physical expression, and personality itself is just a collection of habitual patterns.
3. Consciousness resting in the Self or Being, seeing the unchanging Self present in all things.

If consciousness is identified with personality then there is someone who seeks, someone who wants to discover. Surrender is the letting go of our identification with personality and all ideas of seeking and discovering. It is consciousness identified with personality which seeks and consciousness free from personality identification which discovers.

Peace