Why I'm not a Taoist
 

well the TTC speaks much truth, but isn't the answer to everything.

For example there is this well known saying:

those who know don't speak
and those who speak don't know


it actually makes a lot of sense... because words are only useful in the context of shared experience. Although it isn't obvious to those who don't know, those who do know have had experiences that aren't shared by those who don't. Sometimes in a very unusual way. So any words those who do know say will be taken in the context of someone who only knows the normal experiences shared by people at large. Which is to say out of the context those who do know meant them in.

But even people who do have 'unusual' experiences often still fall into the trap of thinking there isn't more than what they have already seen... in that sense they don't really know either. Even though they may have advanced knowledge, it doesn't mean they actually know.

Those who don't know think they know what is said by those who do know because after all they were taught in school what all the words mean...

but for those who do know it is obvious that saying words in light of any 'extra' experiences does not in fact help impart any 'extra' truth they see to those who haven't actually accepted the experiences. In fact those who do know understand clearly that bandying such words about will actually have the opposite effect than the one desired... often bringing about confusion rather than clarity.

But this is lost on those who don't know because they simply don't have the experience to be able to discern such things. And don't know they don't have the experience. And usually think they do anyway. Hence the confusion...

So, for those who know, and value themselves and others and the truth, it becomes very practical to talk of just shutting up.

However, all this belies a fundamental fact of life: people need to commune with each other as much as they need air, water, or food. While it may be possible to use something like the fact that we also love to reach 'goals' to reach for the 'goal' that it is in the best interests of all simply to shut up... this kind of thing doesn't work forever. Sometimes, the diver who is holding his breath has to come up for air.

And there is another issue... someone some of us have heard of mentioned that in throwing seeds around, some of them will land on fertile ground. Which is to say, even though it may seem that one cannot reasonably expect the water in a river to run upstream, still, to unequivocally say no seed dropped will ever bear fruit may be missing an important point about life.

Now whether aspects of whatever fruit does grow can be controlled in some desired way is another issue entirely, as seeds don't usually ask to be told how to grow.

But as far as the point of being mean and causing confusion by not shutting up: those on the path may initially be confused, but will eventually have a chance to figure it out. For some of us, too much of this experience is so unlikeable we are constantly seeking for something better and just won't accept this horror forever.

But those who aren't on the path need to continue to be confused as ordained as that is in everyone's best interests anyway. Saying words doesn't really change their fate either way unless they suddenly decide to quit revering what they revere. That is their choice not mine.

Each has their own choice how to relate after all.

And how is one person sitting there controlling the flow of the waters going to really resolve anything? If it has never worked in the past how is it going to work now? In my mind it is better to just let the rivers run where they may even if it leads to something undesirable like not being taken seriously.

Honestly though, being taken seriously is a real burden anyway :smile:

But, all that said, it can still be beneficial to just shut up sometimes.

Well I enjoyed reading your post. I've fallen into the trap you mentioned. It is frustrating.

it is really difficult keeping open to possibilities even when you have some clue about how to look at the depth of what you don't know... I imagine it is much harder if you understand there is a problem but don't even know where to look to see 'more'. But you at least have the concept that maybe... which is a better position than some are in. :smile:

Edited because my comment didn't make sense after I read it the second time. lol Anyways I'm stuck on a loop of "maybe's" but you're right it is better this way. :)

hehehe you sound like me. after a wall of maybes though i eventually start thinking of something else... that is once I get past the hope... the hope is mean because it always gets dashed. Always so frustrating.

There is nothing mysterious about the quoted words of the TTC.
You said a lot, but to what end? You could have taken your advice stated in the last sentence.

Some of us can't turn our minds off. :laughing6:

Don't be disheartened though. I think we are supposed to say certain words that others need to hear, like signs.

yes i could have. aren't I a terrible person for not doing so?

And I am a terrible person for pointing this out.

Seriously though, your analysis talks about the potential to generate confusion and the practical thing of shutting up to avoid it. Sure enough many teachers should do that - and unfortunately don't, at least until they have thought about it in some depth.

But to me this is surprising when already Nagarjuna (c. 150 – c. 250 CE) and more recently Douglas Harding (1909 – 2007) with his 'Headless Way' provide clear hints and answers how one prevents the arising of confusion when confronted with texts such as the TTC and many others.
It seems inconceivable that many teachers do no know about this, which leaves me to conclude that they want to confuse the people to leave them ignorant.

Who would do something like that? Well, one of the charges leveled against Meister Eckhart (1260-1328) by the Church was that he taught the people some real stuff. Anybody who has read some of his sermons can attest to him being a true teacher of truth, something that eventually moved the Church to label him a heretic. I have no doubt that the Church's attitude continues to persist in all kind of quarters.

It is not up to me to tell you how not to be confused. That is something you can only do for yourself.

If you want to run from confusion be my guest, that is as good an answer as any I suppose.

thank you you're sweet :smile:

there are lots of ways we are 'supposed' to do things... I guess this whole thread is about me debunking the idea that I 'have' to do it the 'right' way just because 'that has been found to be more effective'. Sometimes, being effective is just too much for me.

and anyway birds don't edit their songs on the basis of how effective the sounds are, I think... they just sing and anyone who doesn't want to hear it moves along...

hi markings

well to be honest i came into this feeling like everything that was being done was wrong, like none of the paths being followed would get me to the place I was told they would go. I still think that is true... which is why I won't just blindly follow paths when I don't want to. What is the point of following a path that is supposed to get me somewhere, when I know it doesn't go to the advertised place? If it seems nice to go down it anyway then fine, but if I intend to get to the place they tell me it goes and follow it just to try to get there, I'm deluding myself. THAT is the nature of confusion.

But at the same time there is very real wisdom in the paths that have been layed out... in the present case sometimes it IS best not to say what you know. There are a lot of things that if you say them, you really cause a lot of trouble. Much better to let those inclined figure out what they need on their own. But again, I don't want to continue to make it a rule that I'm never allowed to talk just on the basis that it will get us somewhere we need to go if I just shut up, knowing as I do that the goal can't be reached that way.

FallingLeaves - Speaking of birds and how they don't put a whole lot of thought into how they sound when they sing reminded me of a life event. I used to be in the children's choir for church many moons ago. My mother was the choir director, thus I had no choice about being in the choir. Anyway, I grew to love singing and would belt out as loud as my little voice would carry without a care in the world. Then it happened. During one practice my mother scolded me and told me not to sing so loud because my voice was flat. Ever since then there's a little voice in my head that tells me when I'm about to sing that I can't sing. Moral of the story, one should be cautious about what he/she says to another because it just might be the case the recipient might no longer have the freedom to be like a singing bird. (Note: this is not a plea for pity, just a life lesson I wanted to pass on.)

P.S. I know very little about Taoism other than one book I read, but it seems to me that Taoism is full of lessons so that's why I joined this thread.

yeah i find it really really hard to cope when people are telling me I can't do something. and it has happened a lot. Anyway sorry if I rubbed you that way, it wasn't my intention.

Oh no, FallingLeaves, you didn't rub me the wrong way at all with anything you said in your thread. I just commented because I liked your analogy about birds. All good here. :smile:

My teachings are very easy to understand
and very easy to practice,
But no one can understand them and
no one can practice them.
In my words there is a principle.
In the affairs of men there is a system.
Because they know not these,
They also know me not.
Since there are few that know me,
Therefore I am distinguished.
Therefore the Sage wears a coarse cloth on top
And carries jade within his bosom.

At times it can be like watching a ping pong match.

ImthatIm that is nice, and as I interpret it poignant that the great rules really are simple and worthwhile, but cannot be abided or played by people who know not the rules


I've read that the birds are actually singing to orchestrate nature. like the surplus of song in Spring is to inspire more budding and notions such as that. it seemed to make sense to me, because while I don't begin to understand it, the concept of sound is far more important than we realize on a given day. something about sound and sight and other senses being created because of each other, Idno.. to be honest I'm certainly guilty of being one that'd benefit from a bit or lot of editing at times. but then I do wonder if some of the things I say or write really are just meant to be and can eventually benefit at least one person down the line if not right away. even if that one person is immediately or eventually myself :tongue: though I hope the case is usually different than that.


I don't know enough about taoism to really comment or care an excessive amount about the sentiment or substance of the initial post of this thread. I do think it seemed apparent through my skimming of it that the author FallingLeaves was sort of mocking themselves, and that the comment about them following their own advice to shush was very unnecessary and a bit too cliche considering the content and whole unraveling of that initial post. but your conundrum FallingLeaves kind of reminds me of falling leaves.. just because they're ultimately going to fall doesn't mean they shouldn't live or try to make a statement while they have a chance. You never know who is going to pick that pretty leaf up off the ground, or pluck it from a tree. lol I collect "raccoon leaves" for my fiance which I sometimes get from the ground but once in a while pluck from a tree or stray branch growing near the ground. they look like the red raccoon tail leaves that are in the old school classic Super Mario Bros 3 so my fiance appreciates the super powers. and I give my daughter who just turned 1 yellow or yellow green leaves from a bush or whatever plant or tree on our walks sometimes too, etc.. I don't usually like taking living things from their natural habitats, but I figure once in a while they might want to come with us or could possibly survive longer inside rather than outside.. but who said they want to survive? I don't know.. We have a pretty good idea what happens to leaves when they fall or anything when it dies. it can't just disappear

Tao that can be described is not the universal and eternal Tao;
Name that can be named is not the universal and eternal name.

The first rule of fight club is we do not talk about fight club.

They say that Lao Tzu new the Book of Changes I Ching.

I Ching says in it's basic belief it is either yes or no ( _____)(__ __). Or lets turn it to binary
( 0 ) & ( 1 ) If the choice is 0 or 1.
I always choose the ONE SOURCE of all life. The Dao which can't be described.

The space between heaven and earth is like a bellows.

i suppose i coudl say something sage like where is tao if not here? So why pretend it is not? But I'm very upset with sages right now...

Really what I want to say is that any time I've ever let myself 'buy' an idea of the form 'if I act this way then I will get this thing' the next thing that has happened has been that the bullies came along and prevented me from acting in the prescribed way. Effectively preventing me from getting the thing.

Any more it seems better just to sit around and not do much of anything than to run around trying to find the great missing tao.

There are a couple of deeper aspects of this. As you have mentioned, it doesn't do much good for people without the proper experience to hear something that is beyond them. Of course, they will think they then understand it anyway and are then experts. It's because overly mental people confuse mental ideas with real experience ... because that's all they ahve to work with in life.

However, if you can allude to things that they can't relate to in a way that can get through to them, in a way that lets them know that there is something greater out there, then that can serve as useful motivation.

As it say, those who are without desires can see the mystery, but those with desires can only see the manifestations. However, there needs to be some desire instilled in a potential seeker to work to arrive at a desire-less state. This catch 22 situation is described as darkness within darkness.

A similar sentiment to the one quoted is the one which says: "The sage teaches without speaking." Some people wonder, how can this be?

Well, the best way for people to learn is my example. You can tell people to be good till you're blue in the face and it hardly does any good, but if you are a shining example, then they may see the benefit of imitation. It's kind of like telling people to conserve gasoline, they won't do a thing about it till you raise prices.

Another thing about teaching by example, without speaking, is that sages are nei kung masters, and nei kung is taught without speaking. So the sage teaches by leading an ethical life and teaching nei kung. However some of them delight in telling ghost stories.

Why you aren't a Taoist.

it's because Taoism is NOT a philosophy. Anyone who thinks they can get 'it' from reading books is forever lost.

The idea that Taoism is a philosophy is a Western imperialistic definition, done by 'scholars' who like to separate what they like (mental drivel), from what they don't like (Taoist practices).

Taoist 'philosophy' is only truly learned by practicing one or more of the Taoist arts.

yeah words get in the way when trying to teach about something like the Tao! Very confusing especially in the english language... much better to just sit still and if someone decides to want to watch they might get something out of it lol! That is better anyway, all sorts of control issues with words, the speaker kinda 'owns' the thoughts. So letting people alone alleviates that as well.

yeah my reading of the TTC has it talking about 'ideals' rather than 'virtue' the way it is commonly translated. But 'virtue' could be described as 'sticking to an ideal' so the two are related anyway.

Anywho when you see sorta what the Tao is like, you start making mental maps (because people always do that lol). That is kind of like, making an 'ideal' for what it should be like.

For a long time you might be using desire to head toward this ideal that you see. Which in part for Tao becomes a path toward lessening the very desires that keep you going along the path? So as always there is paradox involved. But Lao Tzu did say there comes a time, when you drop the thoughts about the ideal and just kinda step out into the mystery without it.

Like being on a hamster wheel,and stumbling along to the final chapter.

Trial and error,fine tuning and process.

Life is hard enuf as it is. . . so why would you want to fill your head with this stuff?

because the only way out of a runaway mind is to let it think about itself.

You mean a mind that hears too many useless thoughts? I have seen that before but I shut it down with the Jesus God.

Why I am not Taoist:

He he, that is a lot of words to use just to get to that last sentence.
But yeah, I suppose it is true, too many words can lead to the development of all sorts of isms. Getting too caught up in all those isms can lead one to become an ist. The problem with being an ist is that ists tend to get stuck in their isms, and have a hard time getting back out. Better to avoid getting hypnotized by those isms.

The Tao that can be ismed is not the true Tao. The sage is not an ist.

really great and wonderful ~ spot on

Very interesting reflection that I had never thought of before...
Thanks

-
 

Some cars have knock sensors to know if the combustion is happening before the piston hits tdc. Why arent refrigerant compressors equipped with similar technology to shut off when too much liquid gets sucked?

QUOTE 18 EXCERPT:


When I went to a Taoist monastery in Chengdu (China) en route to Lhasa, Tibet, in the 1980s, I had questions for the monks (through an interpreter) but their verbal answers did not satisfy me. The monks directed me to the Abbot and his words were better but still did not satisfy me. They then guided me into the presence of the master (without my interpreter) and, about 3 hours later, I emerged completely satisfied as all of my questions had been answered .... in complete and utter silence without words.

In that silence beyond words, one draws closer to the Reality and gets a better understanding of the Tao.

Okay I read this post a long time ago ~ but it says that it was posted Today, 10:09 AM ~ and it is in the todays post list as a new post

have I been time traveling or is this some kind of glitch in the matrix ?

Does it matter to you? It does matter to me because your post today made me check this thread out and the post in question is worthy of comment.

Which Tao? The one (shown below) you quoted in your post?

(Originally Posted by ImthatIm)
Tao that can be described is not the universal and eternal Tao;
Name that can be named is not the universal and eternal name.

The above is an English translation of the Chinese text. Classical Chinese is unintelligible even to the college-educated natives of China. I can read classical Chinese and the above translation is hilarious. I am not saying that I understand what the verses in classical Chinese point to. They have nothing to do with the message in the English verses.

That master with whom you spent 3 hours in silence wouldn't have had a clue about what is in the Tao Te Ching. You would have been better off studying with a Harvard professor of Chinese philosophy not that it would have done you any good.

QUOTE 35 EXCERPT:


Thank you for sharing ! :biggrin:

For your information, I once was applying to Columbia University for the doctoral program in eastern religions. I was told that I qualified for the program but that, since I was studying with one of the revered sages of India, my time would better be spent outside of the University. The point was that, with the sage, I would get the direct experiences, whereas the University would simply make me an expert in translating ancient texts. I have no regrets whatsoever.

With all due respect, I appreciate your interest and input on what would have been best for me but I am glad that I followed the course that I did and didn't go off "studying with a Harvard professor". :biggrin:

My apologies. I didn't mean to point you in the right direction in the study of ancient Chinese thought.

I don't believe that any native Chinese today understands the Tao Te Ching. This scripture is not accessible to western scholars even if they can read classical Chinese which does not lend itself to literal translation in another language.

I would be happy to review your take on any chapter of the Tao Te Ching if you believe that two heads are better than one.

QUOTE 37 EXCERPT:


With your knowledge of Chinese, I would love to do that with you. You have inspired me to take out my ENGLISH translation of The Tao Te Ching (Translated by Brian Browne Walker).

Using the aforementioned translation, there are two passages on which your input would be greatly appreciated. I agree with each translation but, since I don't know Chinese, I can't say whether the translation is accurate or not.

4 (ending):

Something is there, hidden in the deep!
But I do not know whose child it is ---
It came even before God.

56 (beginning):

Those who know don't talk.
Those who talk don't know.

(That Taoist master whom I met in Chengdu China in the 1980s did NOT talk and yet he communicated a lot. That reference in my previous post triggered this dialogue. :smile: )

You are self-confident. I like that. Otherwise, you wouldn't accept my invitation to study together. In this way, you have communicated a lot (doing it right without talking).

Knowledge of classical Chinese gives no advantage in the study of the Tao Te Ching (written in the Chinese text). It only shows the errors in the translations leading the English reader to a different place.

Even if the English reader is an eminent western Harvard professor with a mastery of classical Chinese, he would still face an insurmountable cultural barrier. The same goes for a native (Chinese) professor at Beijing University. He would have no inkling into the musings of scholars in 200 B.C. China.