thank you you're sweet :smile:

there are lots of ways we are 'supposed' to do things... I guess this whole thread is about me debunking the idea that I 'have' to do it the 'right' way just because 'that has been found to be more effective'. Sometimes, being effective is just too much for me.

and anyway birds don't edit their songs on the basis of how effective the sounds are, I think... they just sing and anyone who doesn't want to hear it moves along...

hi markings

well to be honest i came into this feeling like everything that was being done was wrong, like none of the paths being followed would get me to the place I was told they would go. I still think that is true... which is why I won't just blindly follow paths when I don't want to. What is the point of following a path that is supposed to get me somewhere, when I know it doesn't go to the advertised place? If it seems nice to go down it anyway then fine, but if I intend to get to the place they tell me it goes and follow it just to try to get there, I'm deluding myself. THAT is the nature of confusion.

But at the same time there is very real wisdom in the paths that have been layed out... in the present case sometimes it IS best not to say what you know. There are a lot of things that if you say them, you really cause a lot of trouble. Much better to let those inclined figure out what they need on their own. But again, I don't want to continue to make it a rule that I'm never allowed to talk just on the basis that it will get us somewhere we need to go if I just shut up, knowing as I do that the goal can't be reached that way.

FallingLeaves - Speaking of birds and how they don't put a whole lot of thought into how they sound when they sing reminded me of a life event. I used to be in the children's choir for church many moons ago. My mother was the choir director, thus I had no choice about being in the choir. Anyway, I grew to love singing and would belt out as loud as my little voice would carry without a care in the world. Then it happened. During one practice my mother scolded me and told me not to sing so loud because my voice was flat. Ever since then there's a little voice in my head that tells me when I'm about to sing that I can't sing. Moral of the story, one should be cautious about what he/she says to another because it just might be the case the recipient might no longer have the freedom to be like a singing bird. (Note: this is not a plea for pity, just a life lesson I wanted to pass on.)

P.S. I know very little about Taoism other than one book I read, but it seems to me that Taoism is full of lessons so that's why I joined this thread.

yeah i find it really really hard to cope when people are telling me I can't do something. and it has happened a lot. Anyway sorry if I rubbed you that way, it wasn't my intention.

Oh no, FallingLeaves, you didn't rub me the wrong way at all with anything you said in your thread. I just commented because I liked your analogy about birds. All good here. :smile:

My teachings are very easy to understand
and very easy to practice,
But no one can understand them and
no one can practice them.
In my words there is a principle.
In the affairs of men there is a system.
Because they know not these,
They also know me not.
Since there are few that know me,
Therefore I am distinguished.
Therefore the Sage wears a coarse cloth on top
And carries jade within his bosom.

At times it can be like watching a ping pong match.

ImthatIm that is nice, and as I interpret it poignant that the great rules really are simple and worthwhile, but cannot be abided or played by people who know not the rules


I've read that the birds are actually singing to orchestrate nature. like the surplus of song in Spring is to inspire more budding and notions such as that. it seemed to make sense to me, because while I don't begin to understand it, the concept of sound is far more important than we realize on a given day. something about sound and sight and other senses being created because of each other, Idno.. to be honest I'm certainly guilty of being one that'd benefit from a bit or lot of editing at times. but then I do wonder if some of the things I say or write really are just meant to be and can eventually benefit at least one person down the line if not right away. even if that one person is immediately or eventually myself :tongue: though I hope the case is usually different than that.


I don't know enough about taoism to really comment or care an excessive amount about the sentiment or substance of the initial post of this thread. I do think it seemed apparent through my skimming of it that the author FallingLeaves was sort of mocking themselves, and that the comment about them following their own advice to shush was very unnecessary and a bit too cliche considering the content and whole unraveling of that initial post. but your conundrum FallingLeaves kind of reminds me of falling leaves.. just because they're ultimately going to fall doesn't mean they shouldn't live or try to make a statement while they have a chance. You never know who is going to pick that pretty leaf up off the ground, or pluck it from a tree. lol I collect "raccoon leaves" for my fiance which I sometimes get from the ground but once in a while pluck from a tree or stray branch growing near the ground. they look like the red raccoon tail leaves that are in the old school classic Super Mario Bros 3 so my fiance appreciates the super powers. and I give my daughter who just turned 1 yellow or yellow green leaves from a bush or whatever plant or tree on our walks sometimes too, etc.. I don't usually like taking living things from their natural habitats, but I figure once in a while they might want to come with us or could possibly survive longer inside rather than outside.. but who said they want to survive? I don't know.. We have a pretty good idea what happens to leaves when they fall or anything when it dies. it can't just disappear

Tao that can be described is not the universal and eternal Tao;
Name that can be named is not the universal and eternal name.

The first rule of fight club is we do not talk about fight club.

They say that Lao Tzu new the Book of Changes I Ching.

I Ching says in it's basic belief it is either yes or no ( _____)(__ __). Or lets turn it to binary
( 0 ) & ( 1 ) If the choice is 0 or 1.
I always choose the ONE SOURCE of all life. The Dao which can't be described.

The space between heaven and earth is like a bellows.

i suppose i coudl say something sage like where is tao if not here? So why pretend it is not? But I'm very upset with sages right now...

Really what I want to say is that any time I've ever let myself 'buy' an idea of the form 'if I act this way then I will get this thing' the next thing that has happened has been that the bullies came along and prevented me from acting in the prescribed way. Effectively preventing me from getting the thing.

Any more it seems better just to sit around and not do much of anything than to run around trying to find the great missing tao.

There are a couple of deeper aspects of this. As you have mentioned, it doesn't do much good for people without the proper experience to hear something that is beyond them. Of course, they will think they then understand it anyway and are then experts. It's because overly mental people confuse mental ideas with real experience ... because that's all they ahve to work with in life.

However, if you can allude to things that they can't relate to in a way that can get through to them, in a way that lets them know that there is something greater out there, then that can serve as useful motivation.

As it say, those who are without desires can see the mystery, but those with desires can only see the manifestations. However, there needs to be some desire instilled in a potential seeker to work to arrive at a desire-less state. This catch 22 situation is described as darkness within darkness.

A similar sentiment to the one quoted is the one which says: "The sage teaches without speaking." Some people wonder, how can this be?

Well, the best way for people to learn is my example. You can tell people to be good till you're blue in the face and it hardly does any good, but if you are a shining example, then they may see the benefit of imitation. It's kind of like telling people to conserve gasoline, they won't do a thing about it till you raise prices.

Another thing about teaching by example, without speaking, is that sages are nei kung masters, and nei kung is taught without speaking. So the sage teaches by leading an ethical life and teaching nei kung. However some of them delight in telling ghost stories.