Hehehehe....NO I did not :wink: as that can be included in
"Reification or deification of any concept or thing or person...",
depending on one's individual relationship to the thing or concept... and NOT on the "thing" or "concept" itself.

That is the "easy out" too many look for, to point the finger at something externally 1st, rather than 1st looking within.
Granted, if it is imposed upon you externally on pain of death, like rape or slavery, it's understood it make take time to extricate the heart and mind from the trauma.

But for most of our iniquities, we ourselves choose them repeatedly, and we idolise them & fetishise them above all else in pure service to self-gratification. We ourselves, and not another.
No matter what is put forward or where we find ourselves, it is we who choose to connect to what is right-aligned or misaligned, in any situation, environment, or larger context.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

Altair, IMO, with all due resepct, IMO it's best to not get too hung up on the word or the term itself. It's simply about holding your self-gratification and your pleasures and fetishes above all else, most importantly other sentient beings (and the sacred contained within them), and the trauma you do to them in the name of getting what you want.

That's what is meant by the term in all its normal usage, including many religious text BTW. Not that I don't get that when the term is used callously by religious extremists who approve of the use of violence, it's dangerous.

But on that same point, when men see women as tools to use for their pleasure -- including the epidemic levels of rape, assault, and coercion -- that too is dangerous. To elevate one sort of violent obsession or fetish or "idolatry" (say extreme Islam's condoning violence toward non-believers) over another (widespread sexual violence and sexual access to others on demand as normative) reflects your massive privilege as a Western male.

Just saying :wink:...I see truth all round, so even if I may focus on one side or the other, I often come down somewhere in the broad middle just shining a little light on what has been ignored.

Meaning, when you pick one side over the other regarding the iniquity of humanity, you are bound to end up displaying some bias or privilege. But for many of us, we have to face many of the SAME sorts violent outcomes of "idolatry" in either social or cultural setting.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

I think that's more how you view it, 7L. If we look throughout history we can find people of Abrahamic faiths tearing down beautiful statues, burning libraries, and cutting down old, sacred oaks all because they didn't like other people having different beliefs. The art, literature, and nature was all seen as idolatry.

We've lost many treasures, man-made and natural, because of this desire to fight idolatry, and replace all of the joy in the world with a colourless world of doom and gloom. That's been the theme whenever certain groups gain significant power. You can look at Protestant fundies [throughout history and many sects today] or Islamic extremists [like ISIS] if in need of examples.

As for pleasure. What you think of here is a context in which it is used as violence. Still, we all hold pleasure in a high regard, whether that's food, drink, sex, exercise, movies, books, holidays, or anything spiritual. We all seek and want pleasure: 1] A feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment [https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pleasure].

Well said. Your verbiage did indeed include THEOLOGY. :smile:

Altair, I am not supporting ISIS for chrissake :tongue: Not any religious orthodoxy that condones violence or uses their beliefs to treat other people and cultures cruelly, violently, or without lovingkindness or compassion. However, it's not religion or spiritual traditions per se that inflict oppression and conformity. It's any and all totalitarian power structures, regardless of belief. Loads of dictators inflict the same context on their peoples today. It's the insatiable lust for power and the need to control that produce oppression and conformity, not the particulars of the belief set behind it.

And no, we as individual humanity don't all seek and want pleasure first and foremost.
We seek (some of us) and want meaning and peace and honour in our lives. We seek to live first and foremost in authentic love (lovingkindness and equanimity) with ourselves and others and with All that Is.

I have to disagree with your statement about pleasure seeking. For example, mums for one -- and many others -- find joy and peace in service and in love and in commitment to right-alignment. It cannot be in search of your feels or you will raise a stunted child who lacks love. Which is a deeply abusive act to perpetrate on another. This is a really, really basic lesson.

Ultimately seeking something for pleasure of self-gratification is hollow, desultory, and self-serving, and this is a lesson we learn very early on in the journey, in my experience.
What I said still stands. And we simply can't justify our own inability to take ownership and look in the mirror by pointing to the past OR to other (even more egregious) actors at present like ISIS, LOL...or Epstein, etc.,... :rolleyes:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

''Pleasure'', broadly defined, is a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment. This moves every human being every day. It is inescapable. Even spiritual practices, with the aim to ''go beyond'', still show us the hard mirror of us wanting something and seeking experiences. You mention peace and love but they too are an experience of satisfaction and enjoyment. Or do you think peace is unsatisfactory or is peace an unenjoyable experience?

Humans are pleasure seekers. The fact that some want violence or only pleasure for themselves does not make the idea of pleasure itself bad. But lets put it to the test, practically. Did you enjoy your meal today, or did you make it very distasteful just to make sure you wouldn't enjoy it? :wink:

Hey there Altair, TBH...hahaha...I am not a huge foodie and eat simple foods mainly, to fuel the body, but I do prefer clean and sustainable food because it's better for us and Gaia.
BUT I recognise that a satiation response for food or liquid is key to survival and that lets us know that it's good to nourish and water the body.

That is different that obsessing over food or drink.
I enjoy most meals if they are clean and nourishing..and many would find much of what I eat plain or distasteful...even unpleasant unless they like GF whole grains, a lot of raw veggies and white proteins, and very little cooking oil. I prefer my fats raw and unheated if possible and just use what I must to cook eggs or protein in a skillet. My main liquids are water, tea or coffee if needed. And fruit or sweet is my least favourite taste but I eat them daily anyway :D When I was sad or low I discovered the occasional piece of dark chocolate helped mood but in the main I just crave fat & protein to fuel the brain & the body - and I recognise that we do each have a sacred temple which we must care for.

Having issues (have to eat GF and cannot do cow's dairy or anything too heavy or bad fats *gag*)...I most appreciate food that is pure and unadulterated, just like I cannot stand artificial scent on folks. Soap is good when it smells of simple and natural origins, or else of nothing :D
I am not caught up in most of the stuff that many would label as pleasure and I don't find it to be nourishing to the soul, beyond items needed for survival and health, such as nature, meditation, and engaging with self, Source and others in deep, meaningful, and challenging ways.

I do agree that the sublime joy of being IS the reward for being here now and being love now.
But that is not about focusing on the feels and the rush for their own sake, nor pursuing them for their own sake, and so that is not the pleasure seeking you describe.

When you too can see the difference then we'll be having a different conversation.
More about that sublime joy of being and how it is so much more encompassing and amazing than any momentary thing :hug3:
This is why I speak of authentic love...because it is always relevant, to any context, moment, relationship, or lifetime.

Peace & blessings :wink:
7L

But 7L, what is the ''pleasure'' that I do describe?? :tongue:
I am not advocating some lavish, over-indulgent lifestyle or anything. Never have advocated for such, although I think it's fine if others want to do so, provided it does not cause harm to other humans or animals. I'm rather modest myself in lifestyle, and also do not partake in such things as meat, alcohol, coffee. Pleasure is simply satisfaction/enjoyment, and nothing more. So it can be anything you want it to be, and I think that's a good starting point. And in that sense we are all pleasure seekers, just towards different things, either beneficial or harmful.

Back to ''idolatry''. I feel the same about that one. Idolatry can be anything you want it to be. Some religions just decide what is and what isn't, but to another religion the worship of a personal god, even without an image representation, can be viewed as idolatrous. I don't really see any important difference, and I view any physical 'idol' as just a useful focus point for worship or spiritual practice. It shouldn't matter if someone else worships ''idols''. What really matters are the fruits of any belief or spiritual practice.:smile:

Your "reason" is classic ! :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: