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-   -   Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it? (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=143806)

traceyacey12 08-05-2022 02:09 AM

Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?
 
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?

I know, a weird question.

I'm just trying to see if spirituality only exists because we allow it, if practicing it would lead to a good experience.

Thanks a lot for your help :)

FallingLeaves 08-05-2022 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?

i think so. In some ways I've always thought, one reason for the eastern masters' reclusiveness is that if mainstream people (such as ordinary politicians for example) caught on to the sheer power available in some of the things they do, they would use all the same techniques they do now (e.g. physical and/or emotional torture) to try to influence them to use that power in ways that are beneficial to either the politician or the state. Which led to a lot of mystery being kept about the well-known paths, and nothing was passed on except to those who would go along with THAT status quo.

And of course there were a lot of people 'persecuted' in various ways in the name of following the judaeo-christian god... but that didn't stop such people either.

From what I can tell there were probably others who went down this road even though they had great fear for their own lives and maybe noone they could share with. Those of us who can take advantage of what is happening today are relatively lucky, with things opening up as they are...

wstein 08-05-2022 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?

I'm just trying to see if spirituality only exists because we allow it, ...

There have been many times and places where people were killed due to their religion. I know of no cases where they wiped them all out. So, yes it would still exist.

Secondarily those who identify more as spiritual rather than religious quite often take a purely person journey (like I did for decades). As such there would be no need to talk to anyone about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
... if practicing it would lead to a good experience.

This part is unclear.

traceyacey12 08-05-2022 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstein
...This part is unclear.


Hey, thanks for the reply. What I mean by the last part is if we only get spiritual experiences if its not going to lead to death or some other bad outcome

Altair 08-05-2022 09:56 AM

Yes, but there would be less to no vocabulary about it, there would be no structure and no institution.

It would be a bit like animals with a spiritual experience?

Greenslade 08-05-2022 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?

There's an old saying, "God made man, man made religion."

If Spirituality didn't exist because nobody believed in it, what does that say about our Spirituality? If we are indeed "Spiritual Beings on a human Journey" etc, does that mean Spirituality exists anyway? If it does, does that make Spirituality a 'thing' and therefore it doesn't exist? Or do we make a 'thing' out of Spirituality?

hazada guess 08-05-2022 12:18 PM

Spirituality has, and always will, exist.We have only become aware of it with time.:smile:

Moonglow 08-05-2022 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?

Thanks a lot for your help :)


Depends upon how one views “spirituality” and ,as I see it, the social structures in place.

I feel for the most part it is personal and private. Meaning, if the trust and feeling of openness is there, then it is more spoken about. If not, it is kept to oneself or group.

Feel it is not so much what one says as it is how one lives.

Whether one will get killed over it seems more a control of power thing then it is “spiritual” thing, IMO.
“Spirituality” seems to have and continue to exist regardless.

lemex 08-05-2022 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?

Yes, it would still exist it simply wouldn't be openly talked about. A person would think of spirituality and not say anything. In terms of outward appearance yes, inward, no. Of course one might say lie about it because of the need to. I take the question to be would the thought of it exist in the threat of harm. But would I reject it. One would still reject what one may be forced to say. I probably wouldn't say anything out of fear if honest. My thought are always brave : )

Greenslade 09-05-2022 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemex
Yes, it would still exist it simply wouldn't be openly talked about.

If people - as in every single person on the planet - didn't believe in Spirituality would it still exist?

lemex 09-05-2022 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
If people - as in every single person on the planet - didn't believe in Spirituality would it still exist?

If you mean after death there were a real spiritual realm in spite of people saying there isn't, then yes it would exist and would be real. That would be interesting. If you mean every person on the planet don't believe in any spirituality I think that's not possible once the policy and attachment of fear were removed it would expand. You cant control the mind of another person. I think of thought as being honest. I think there is diversity of beingness. Even if every person believed in the same exact thing, spirituality (spirit) would still exist differently. This is what my gut tells me. If I didn't answer the question, please let me know.

inavalan 09-05-2022 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?
...


I guess you mean it as "a test of one's beliefs" ... I think that there are several ways to look at it.

Spirituality doesn't imply that you have to talk about it. You don't have to proselytize it.

If people thought twice before opening their mouths to talk, or start typing their opinions, that might actually be of benefit both to themselves and to society. People get easily carried away and embrace opinions and hypotheses as truths. Later, when proven incorrect they as easily forget their part in disseminating falsehood.

In spiritual matters, I believe that everyone should trust and follow only their own inner guidance, and not gurus and dogmas, so although it is it good to share your beliefs, that should be taken further into arguments, bullying, pressure on others.

Altair 13-05-2022 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
If people - as in every single person on the planet - didn't believe in Spirituality would it still exist?


As a concept? No.
As how we describe the experience now? Yes.

Like how the world continues to exist without people and on a smaller scale, without a specific individual.

iamthat 13-05-2022 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
If people - as in every single person on the planet - didn't believe in Spirituality would it still exist?

There are many people alive who are convinced that they are purely physical beings and that consciousness is somehow produced by the brain and that when the physical body dies then they will cease to exist.

These people are still spiritual beings experiencing physical existence through the human form. The fact that they are so fully identified with the physical form does not negate their spiritual nature.

Peace

utopiandreamchild 14-05-2022 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it. :)

I would say yes it would still exist.
utopia

Greenslade 15-05-2022 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemex
If you mean every person on the planet don't believe in any spirituality

It's a mind exercise as much as anything but yes, if absolutely nobody had any Spiritual beliefs whatsoever?

No it's probably not possible but the idea is an opportunity to explore, I think. Does Spirituality exist in its own right, or does it exist because we believe in it?

Greenslade 15-05-2022 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
As a concept? No.
As how we describe the experience now? Yes.

'Karma' is a word from Spirituality, keeping it simple, so if karma didn't exist? What happens to that 'bad experience'/'negative karma, specifically how it's dealt with?

Native spirit 15-05-2022 10:26 AM

I would agree with Iamthat


Namaste

Greenslade 15-05-2022 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamthat
There are many people alive who are convinced that they are purely physical beings and that consciousness is somehow produced by the brain and that when the physical body dies then they will cease to exist.

There are many people convinced of many things, and the objective reality is that all reality is subjective and it's all about how we choose to perceive our individual existence. So while those people are identified with physical form, aren't Spiritual people simply identified with their own definitions of 'Spiritual'? Identification is psychology not Spirituality. The term 'Spiritual' being used as a prefix is the differentiated consciousness of the ego, and since allegedly "We are One" aren't the terms 'Spiritual' and 'Being' meaningless? 'Spiritual' only means anything if there is something that is perceived as 'non-Spiritual'.

Spirituality and schizophrenia light up the same areas of the brain, and it's only because of the way the brain is 'constructed' that we can process the abstract 'Spiritual' thoughts. Some people are not 'Spiritual' by choice they are not 'Spiritual' because their brains simply can't process it. Most people have something they can't process.

My question is how much of Spirituality is human after all? And beyond beliefs and all the rest of it, how Spiritual is being human?

Greenslade 15-05-2022 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Native spirit
I would agree with Iamthat

If everything and everybody is Spiritual, what then? And isn't Spirituality an object of consciousness and therefore has no reality in itself?

hazada guess 15-05-2022 01:09 PM

You can't see gas or oxygen, but it's there:biggrin:

PS, I've reincarnated as a newbie.:laugh:

Izz 15-05-2022 01:11 PM

Yes, because even if one doubts things or get puts into fearful situations, awareness is present

As long as there's awareness, there's no escaping the awareness towards the existence of spirituality

Greenslade 15-05-2022 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izz
As long as there's awareness, there's no escaping the awareness towards the existence of spirituality

What are you aware of? We are aware as living beings, every being is aware.

Your reality is defined by your perception, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs and your beliefs are defined by your definitions. Does the definition of 'Spirituality' exist in your reality or does Spirituality itself exist?

In Spirituality, Spirituality is an 'invented thing'.

If you didn't have the word 'Spiritual' in your vocabulary, what then?

lemex 15-05-2022 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
No it's probably not possible but the idea is an opportunity to explore, I think. Does Spirituality exist in its own right, or does it exist because we believe in it?

I think the spirit realm exists in its own right based on personal experience at the same time as ours. Just adding this so you know the reason why I say there is more then just us (all life forms here). I am aware of it. And I wouldn't be surprised if that realm had it's own rules. I've noticed spirituality is always talking about rules to. So if somebody tells me there is more I already know.

I think it is right, we would believe in it, so both happen. So I say it is not an or but would say and. It is my belief even if I hadn't had the experience I think I would believe in it. The reason is in psychology.

This is what amazes me though. What if our ancestors were born with the same knowledge (and words) we have today and how belief would be. We still hold onto ideas thousands of years old and we think we can give up recent ideas, even reimage them. Based on the mind we cannot not believe what we start.:wink: I think both happen at the same time. We are unwilling to give idea we create.

Greenslade 15-05-2022 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemex
I think the spirit realm exists in its own right based on personal experience at the same time as ours.

What is the 'Spiritual realm?' Is it 'Spiritual' or is it another level of existence, another dimension that simply hasn't been explained by science? I know there's more than just because as a medium I've given proof of survival to many, but for those that have never experienced anything like that?

While I quite agree with you, Spirituality is a belief system so no beliefs no Spirituality?

You said "I think I would believe in it" but what is that 'it'? That's the question. Is Spirituality an 'it' to believe in? If you'd never heard the word would you still be 'Spiritual'?

What we don't realise is that many of the beliefs we have today are the same as the beliefs our ancestors had from back to the cavemen days. Our ancestors believed something made the sun travel across the sky and today we have God. Isn't all we do is put different clothes on the same basic beliefs?

iamthat 15-05-2022 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
Spirituality is a belief system so no beliefs no Spirituality?

There is a difference between spirituality as a belief system and spirituality as experienced states of consciousness which have nothing to do with beliefs.

On a forum such as this all we can do is share ideas and perspectives. These are products of the mind. Everyone has their own perspective, hence all the agreements and disagreements.

Our experienced states of consciousness cannot be shared with others, and they do not depend on ideas and beliefs. Spirituality is a convenient label which we can apply to these states of consciousness, but such states of consciousness cannot be defined by labels.

Peace

Altair 15-05-2022 09:51 PM

There is the 'experience' of what we think spirituality is, and there is the concepts/words etc. that are needed to talk about it here. This is how religions are created over time. We become more concerned with structure and formality. 'Spirituality' as we talk about it would indeed not exist without human agents. At the same time, 'it' can exist regardless of those same humans. To suggest otherwise would (I think) be solipsism.

wstein 16-05-2022 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
'Karma' is a word from Spirituality, keeping it simple, so if karma didn't exist? What happens to that 'bad experience'/'negative karma, specifically how it's dealt with?

Why do people want there to 'be' punitive accounting for certain behaviors? Isn't consequences of actions sufficient?

lemex 16-05-2022 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamthat
There is a difference between spirituality as a belief system and spirituality as experienced states of consciousness which have nothing to do with beliefs.

Beautify said. The element of direct experience. One can have spiritual intersection happen (added) even if given belief says nope. Sometimes a choice.

utopiandreamchild 17-05-2022 08:12 AM

As long as there's love for spirituality.
Spirituality will be around for as long as it's loved and that could be a while.
utopia

pixiedust 17-05-2022 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?


Yes as I say spirituality is beyond both word and thought.

hazada guess 17-05-2022 02:19 PM

Excellent post pixiedust.:thumbsup:

lemex 17-05-2022 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixiedust
Yes as I say spirituality is beyond both word and thought.

Yes, but also remember, what we tell ourselves and think is the reality we make. We create this our own reality. What will happen is also what we want. There are others here who seem to know, aren't there?.

pixiedust 17-05-2022 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemex
Yes, but also remember, what we tell ourselves and think is the reality we make. We create this our own reality. What will happen is also what we want. There are others here who seem to know, aren't there?.


What does your last sentence mean?

To the rest, you have a (good) point. Can you elaborate on "what will happen is also what we want."

lemex 17-05-2022 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixiedust
What does your last sentence mean?

I would mean teacher level or being advanced that some appear to be at. A lot of time I go with my intuition and heart which I think knows more then I.

But if I do not want then won't that be what I make happen. I make it happen. No person can know the unknown I am aware of that and agree. But I think limited knowledge and spiritual knowledge exist now which is not beyond now that lead us to unknown. We are to find out. Lessons. For me, I always try to be in now which is known. My focus is on limited knowledge now which I do.

pixiedust 23-05-2022 04:04 PM

Thanks lemex.

FlyingFree 05-06-2022 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceyacey12
Would spirituality exist if people were to be killed if they talked about it?

I know, a weird question.

I'm just trying to see if spirituality only exists because we allow it, if practicing it would lead to a good experience.

Thanks a lot for your help :)


I personally believe that is one of the reasons secret societies exist.. To keep them from being targeted and also to keep there practices closed to outsiders.

Greenslade 06-06-2022 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamthat
Spirituality is a convenient label which we can apply to these states of consciousness, but such states of consciousness cannot be defined by labels.

Thank you, but I've already figured that out.

Greenslade 06-06-2022 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstein
Why do people want there to 'be' punitive accounting for certain behaviors? Isn't consequences of actions sufficient?

Way back in history they had the punishing God/gods and today we have 'negative' karma, sometimes it's mentality not Spirituality.

Greenslade 06-06-2022 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
At the same time, 'it' can exist regardless of those same humans.

Then 'it' becomes an entity in its own right, it becomes a 'thing', form, an 'object' of consciousness.

Your perceptions are defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs and your beliefs are defined by your definitions. So when you start a thread that asks "What is Spirituality?" what comes out is people's personal definitions.

In Spirituality, neither of those are real.


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