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-   -   Indifference towards declining state of nature in Spiritual communities? (https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128602)

Altair 22-03-2019 09:54 AM

Indifference towards declining state of nature in Spiritual communities?
 
If we look at the state the world is in, particularly concerning the environment and loss of life's diversity, I'm surprised how much indifference there seems to be towards this issue within spiritual communities. To me, a care and concern for the natural world has always been an important part of my sense of spirituality. I have always loved animals, forests, and wild places. But if said creatures and places are in decline, not because of a slow natural process, but due to humanity's destructive tendencies it is clear that the solution is also with those same humans. Yet we do not discuss this much. The question is why, and I will try to explore this..

Topics about house cats and one's favourite animal receive more views and posts than the declining state of wildlife on most places on the internet, be it forums, reddit, the number of times news articles are shared, or just the things people share and post on social media. It is of course good to focus on positive things in life, something I would emphasize, but at the same time it does not seem wise to ignore the problems in the world, because we all have the means and the intelligence to help make a better world. To imagine we only exist to merge with some god is not getting us anywhere if that means forgetting the very context that provides us with the means to get somewhere. This includes the gift of receiving a human body, which of course depends on this world's health...!! On this forum I have pointed out this selfish aspect that humans exhibit, yet the key to selfishness is to make sure it is reciprocal..!! That way you are justified in being selfish..

I believe that to improve our world we should always acknowledge problems and issues first, talk about it, and think about ways we can help each other and better our world. To not talk about it because ''It's not nice news'' helps no one, and that includes yourself. Eventually the loss of life and the declining state of our environment will hurt you too and everyone you love..

The question I raise is.. am I correct in assuming there's an innate fear in spiritual communities to talk about these things..?
There's much talk on ''non-separation'' yet the talk continues to be about the self, and even if this perpetuates all, it does not seem to result in a greater care for all-that-is.. but instead just a greater indifference..?

I see some examples here and there that give me a sense of relief that some do care... like Pope Francis in one of his encyclicals, or some religious sects acting more sustainably.. but overall I do not notice a great change, and yet spiritual communities should be well equipped however to do something about it, play their part. I mean.. beliefs in the earth goddess, all life being sacred, advocating more sustainable diets and lifestyles. The opportunities are there to create an alignment of beliefs and practices. Why then is there so little activity concerning these topics and so much indifference..? Why is it that the most concerned people and people that want to do something about it are more likely to be atheists...??

Native spirit 22-03-2019 10:23 AM

I can agree with a lot that you have said,Mother earth has always been a big part of my life when I was young my dad would see me lying on the ground around the trees.and I would be talking to the tree. and the animals that lives around it.
I have always taken myself into the woods to calm myself.i would take my dogs and just sit there.


Namaste

blackraven 25-03-2019 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
If we look at the state the world is in, particularly concerning the environment and loss of life's diversity, I'm surprised how much indifference there seems to be towards this issue within spiritual communities. To me, a care and concern for the natural world has always been an important part of my sense of spirituality. I have always loved animals, forests, and wild places. But if said creatures and places are in decline, not because of a slow natural process, but due to humanity's destructive tendencies it is clear that the solution is also with those same humans. Yet we do not discuss this much. The question is why, and I will try to explore this..

Topics about house cats and one's favourite animal receive more views and posts than the declining state of wildlife on most places on the internet, be it forums, reddit, the number of times news articles are shared, or just the things people share and post on social media. It is of course good to focus on positive things in life, something I would emphasize, but at the same time it does not seem wise to ignore the problems in the world, because we all have the means and the intelligence to help make a better world. To imagine we only exist to merge with some god is not getting us anywhere if that means forgetting the very context that provides us with the means to get somewhere. This includes the gift of receiving a human body, which of course depends on this world's health...!! On this forum I have pointed out this selfish aspect that humans exhibit, yet the key to selfishness is to make sure it is reciprocal..!! That way you are justified in being selfish..

I believe that to improve our world we should always acknowledge problems and issues first, talk about it, and think about ways we can help each other and better our world. To not talk about it because ''It's not nice news'' helps no one, and that includes yourself. Eventually the loss of life and the declining state of our environment will hurt you too and everyone you love..

The question I raise is.. am I correct in assuming there's an innate fear in spiritual communities to talk about these things..?
There's much talk on ''non-separation'' yet the talk continues to be about the self, and even if this perpetuates all, it does not seem to result in a greater care for all-that-is.. but instead just a greater indifference..?

I see some examples here and there that give me a sense of relief that some do care... like Pope Francis in one of his encyclicals, or some religious sects acting more sustainably.. but overall I do not notice a great change, and yet spiritual communities should be well equipped however to do something about it, play their part. I mean.. beliefs in the earth goddess, all life being sacred, advocating more sustainable diets and lifestyles. The opportunities are there to create an alignment of beliefs and practices. Why then is there so little activity concerning these topics and so much indifference..? Why is it that the most concerned people and people that want to do something about it are more likely to be atheists...??


Altair - I agree with everything you said. I have recycled for years and years and it was just recently that I learned that most of recycled materials end up in landfills due to the cost of shipping and other logistics on towns and cities across countries. So I have decided to reduce my footprint by buying less food that comes in packaging.

Altair 02-04-2019 10:19 AM

Thanks to both of you..
It saddens me greatly that there is so much decline in life's diversity. I wished spirituality would be more about animals, plants, and the celestials and less about the human self and abstract thinking. To me it's practical, and not philosophy. I think if we lived more in harmony with our world there wouldn't be as much speculation and focus on 'suffering' and 'happiness'..

Lucky 1 02-04-2019 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
Thanks to both of you..
It saddens me greatly that there is so much decline in life's diversity. I wished spirituality would be more about animals, plants, and the celestials and less about the human self and abstract thinking. To me it's practical, and not philosophy. I think if we lived more in harmony with our world there wouldn't be as much speculation and focus on 'suffering' and 'happiness'..



Absolutely! .........and what you are describing sounds a whole lot like the spiritual path of the Hunter.....
(And its not just about hunting)

Altair 03-04-2019 08:12 AM

A pure hunter-gatherer lifestyle would have low impact yes..

I understand if done sensibly it can help ecologically, but that works with a large wilderness. Most of nature now is about small pockets that require careful monitoring and protection, especially in Europe. Hunting in Europe has been about throphies for centuries, a hobby for the nobles or a means to rid agriculture of “pests”. Hunter-gatherer societies theoughout human history were also small and there certainly weren’t billions of people..

We now live and consume within the context of civilization. We switched to agriculture but at least we used to have less impact, wildflowers were allowed to grow, and fields were small. All of this was beneficial to insects. Small areas to cross and fly over. Cows grazing outside was as well, which is why I support organic dairy and I’ve talked about this specific issue for years now with vegans but they just black out. With gardens too there’s been a change. Flowers are seen as pests and gardens are, to most people, a field of grass for kids to play in, or it’s just stones and rocks. Then they complain the heat doesn’t leave on a summer day and use more and more water..

Anyway.. concerning the theme of my thread.. what we see here is definitely spirituality changing in accordance with civilization’s changes and lifestyle. It now all seems to be about me, myself, and I. Animals? Dogs, cats, cows, and horses. Check YouTube and a cat video gets millions of views whereas an excellent nature doc receives a few hundred thousand with some luck.

Humans and livestock together make up the overwhelming majority of biomass today, they weigh more than the millions of wild species combined. This is so ridiculous!

Spirituality has been reduced to one life form. Even the ‘guides’ are now almost exclusively seen as human, just as the deities, and a hierarchy was created (god > men > women > livestock and pets > the rest). Religions see humans as the crown of creation, but it is really the story of a self-made men who trampled on everything else..

ImthatIm 03-04-2019 08:09 PM

Problems abound and solutions abound.
How to offer the solutions to the ones creating the vast amount of the problems, to stop creating the problems is the problem.
How to revert back to living/consuming in and from local communities is a big step forward. Which means ending globalism.
Now the ocean is going to be a big problem. The things we know about and the things that have been sunk for decades in the
oceans that we don't even know about that may start leaking from the disposal barrels and containers soon.
Another big problem is trying to get the money to fix the problems.
Point out to the people who rake in the big bucks and politely let them know they will have to give up that income for a cleaner source of income.
And it goes on and on and I've been down this road before.
And I will be here again as it gets dirtier and dirtier.
* * **
((:icon_eek:))
^^^^

Found Goat 14-04-2019 07:26 PM

As the naturalist in me is a bit of an animist also, I sense the anima within Nature all the while with my feet firmly on the ground.

It’s a bit of a conflicted feeling I have.

There’s a part of me that feels rooted to the Earth and another like I’m a figment or fragment of Creator passing through, either to once again reincarnate or transmutate.

You may be right about the less spiritually inclined among us (e.g. atheists) seeming to be more tethered to terra mater, what with their mortal outlook on life their gravitational force. This planet is all they have and, understandably, they wish to preserve it as best they can for their descendants. They don’t think of Earth as a stopover.

Obviously, this is not to suggest that a hope or a belief in a hereafter should somehow serve as an excuse in not being mindful and responsible planetary custodians, as we all should be, only that the nurturing spark within tends to keep the host of his tabernacle inward and centered on the nexus of his being, as the stylite, meditative monk, and abstract contemplatives of yore, who naturally lived this way prior to all the environmental concerns brought on by the Industrial and Modern ages.

(Here I think of how the biblical God created a paradise Earth and yet for most of the faithful they anticipate a heavenly reward.)

Beyond the innate distractive nature of the inner-directed soul, the problem, imo, becomes compounded by the times we live in, with its many diversions of electronic immersion. My opinion is that there are those who cannot see the forest for the trees on account of their PDAs and other digital doodads obstructing their view.

One naturalist has noted how, in order for one to truly be mindful and take the initiative to want to be and live green, he must first feel a connection to the Earth, apart of the interconnected web of creation, of which the distractions of urban living – with its crowded living conditions, ubiquitous concrete, noise, razzmatazz, and omnipresent telescreens – make this difficult to do for even the most spiritually minded of us at times.

That’s why you’ll sometimes hear a sage or sapient say how man must return to the land – be it field or forest. And, yet, the agrarian way of living is waning and people are relocating to cities where the food is for the most part processed and can be eaten while watching nature programs on plus-60-inch screens in 3D.

I also wonder if it’s not so much a matter of indifference as one of apathy, or more accurately a feeling of resignation, that despite all one’s personal efforts in contributing to ecological awareness and improvement, that in the end these efforts may be too insignificant when the powers-that-be are for the most part living in ecological denial. Whether this is a defeatist or simply a realist position to hold may be a debatable one.

While still others simply go about doing their own individual part, all the while patiently waiting for God to intervene. (Revelation 11:18.)

Altair 14-04-2019 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Found Goat
You may be right about the less spiritually inclined among us (e.g. atheists) seeming to be more tethered to terra mater, what with their mortal outlook on life their gravitational force. This planet is all they have and, understandably, they wish to preserve it as best they can for their descendants. They don’t think of Earth as a stopover.


I think it's more to do with their practicality. They take life as they observe it and don't waste time imagining other worlds or the afterlife because they are more likely to bother about the here and now. I'm not an atheist but I value that practical trait. I think they are at an advantage there..

We can imagine and speculate all we want about pleasant afterlives and alien worlds, but if we can't appreciate a seemingly ''lesser'' world we don't really deserve something we imagine to be even 'better' or 'higher'.. To do so would be entitlement, but this does not really surprise me because much of spirituality is about self-indulgence..

Many religions don't seem to have much of an appreciation for this world. It's vilified and slandered as ''an illusion'' one must ''escape'' from through following a belief system. These attitudes are most certainly a reflection of the advance of civilization where humans have the luxury to dabble in over-conceptualization of their experience of ''happiness'' and ''suffering''. Reduce or remove that and you will have different people with different views about this world. There's something comical about the popular religions.. they go around in circles creating imaginary solutions to the problems we have created..


Quote:

Originally Posted by Found Goat
I also wonder if it’s not so much a matter of indifference as one of apathy, or more accurately a feeling of resignation, that despite all one’s personal efforts in contributing to ecological awareness and improvement, that in the end these efforts may be too insignificant when the powers-that-be are for the most part living in ecological denial. Whether this is a defeatist or simply a realist position to hold may be a debatable one.


It could be part apathy as well.. but if we all think like that nothing changes. I don't know if you're familiar with the 'Tragedy of the Commons'; it's where resources are depleted because nobody takes responsibility or looks beyond their selfish needs. The tragedy occurs because they all thinks ''what difference does me changing make on the big picture?''
But we gotta start somewhere..

Petey 14-04-2019 10:56 PM

I don't see this as a problem of spiritual communities. My experiences show that, on the contrary, spiritually-focused people are some of the most attentive and active when it comes to our natural world and the problems its facing. I think the RELIGIOUS communities are not doing so much to address the issues facing the natural world. There isn't a lot of incentive, especially nowadays, when so many religions are trying to deal with their identity crises. You just won't hear much about natural destruction from the pulpit.

I think a lot of spiritual people are finding connections with science behind nautre and scientists are looking at deeper (spiritual) relations between humans and nature, recognizing that humans can no longer afford to see themselves as separate from or "in charge of" the natural world. I've always found that spiritual people have a special relation with nature in things like spirit animals, the elemental components of the earth (e.g. crystals, water, etc.), and they have a deep respect for indigenous cultures, who are more deeply embedded in nature.

The "problem" lies with the average human. The destruction of nature just isn't on their doorsteps. Yet. It will take things like a summer of closed beaches due to bacteria overgrowth, a $150 Christmas tree due to a "bad season", that first year when almonds are really hard to find. And the changes in the natural world will bring with them changes in world politcal power. Wealth, and the power that comes with it, will vanish quickly. Some countries will benefit from the changes in nature.

What won't happen is that nature won't go away. The whales might die out. The humans, too. But that vital energy that is nature will continue in some form or another.

Altair 15-04-2019 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petey
I don't see this as a problem of spiritual communities. My experiences show that, on the contrary, spiritually-focused people are some of the most attentive and active when it comes to our natural world and the problems its facing. I think the RELIGIOUS communities are not doing so much to address the issues facing the natural world. There isn't a lot of incentive, especially nowadays, when so many religions are trying to deal with their identity crises. You just won't hear much about natural destruction from the pulpit.


The distinction between ''spiritual'' and ''religious'' is problematic. Religion means ''to commune with the divine'', spiritual relates to spirits or spiritual phenomena. Religions can believe in a personal deity or they don't, similarly true for 'spiritual' people..

When I see people say ''I'm spiritual, not religious'' and then check their beliefs and practices I see a mix of Hindu and Buddhist beliefs and a very liberal interpretation of Jesus and Christianity. It might not be a particular religion they follow but they still try and ''commune with the divine'' and believe in things that religions believe in...

It's nice to hear you see people being attentive to the natural world, but I think these people are the exception and not the norm. I've spend plenty of time in various environment and conservation groups and I don't notice a lot of 'spiritual' people there, just as I don't see people in spiritual communities (online and offline) discuss these issues much. There's more of a disinterest in it and a desire to escape the world and focus purely on the self, which I see as a reflection of the environment and society we have created..

Thank you for your thoughts..

Dather12 18-04-2019 11:16 PM

I'm glad other people are recognizing that we have some serious issues to confront beyond the whole "what are we?" questions.

Chances are that people are more focused on making money and providing a living for themselves, rather than caring for the planet and their surroundings. My generation knows about all of these issues but we've been tagged with the "broke college student" situation of debts and starting at the bottom of a long way up in terms of making a living for ourselves, plus the decade or two of indoctrination as to how to think, we're at an incredible disadvantage to fund the projects we see would help the most, especially compared to the bigger companies that care more about profit than liberation and have a much larger say over the trends.

And that attachment to money is what's breaking us. Competition over cooperation leads to separation instead of unionizing. Deception through altered perceptions over honest communication. And a money system that gradually sucks away our abilities over time, this is the root of what I believe is the problem. Because it's all fun to liberate lives, but if you can't pay those bills...

Altair 19-04-2019 07:54 AM

Thanks for your thoughts, Dather12...

I'm probably same generation as you. I am only one person so that obviously doesn't make the difference, but we can all check our consumption, we all gotta start somewhere, 1 > 0. Even if things look daunting the ''tragedy of the commons'' -TOTC- ((..where everyone thinks 'me changing don't make a difference' leads to actually no change anywhere..)) should be avoided. There's choices to make with food, with energy usage, and there's charity and volunteer work you can do. I know it's all small steps but lets avoid the TOTC. If you do have more wealth.. and a house and a garden, you can start growing food, and have flowers for bumblebees, butterflies, etc. Maybe form a network with others in your area to create a little oasis of life..

I too believe the core issue here is ''competition over cooperation''.. This leads to hierarchical thinking with a few people at the top ruling over all other forms of life, and only a handful of selected domesticated plants and animals are allowed to exist. This pyramid is what must be shattered, because it's a path towards destruction..

Nature is about harmony, yes there is competition and death, but it's not a pyramid. The nazis showed people ants and told stories about death and destruction and that only this showed how the world functions and that only ''the strong'' survive but it's very biased, and was used to stimulate hatred in people..

Lepus 20-04-2019 11:33 PM

Hello

How were you able to tell whether someone is spiritual by looking at them? Are they suppose to display certain clothes or jewelry to distingish someone being spiritual? I've noticed some pagans don't bother to wear any jewelry pertaining to their beliefs. I know I don't. That doesn't mean they're not pagan. Same for spiritual people. And helping the environment and conservation group can be a spiritual experience. Especially for those who view the Earth sacred. Some are even calling the Earth a Goddess. Science has been able to prove that Earth is a living organism further legitimizing an existential deity, Gaia.

I believe many don't discuss these topics is because many spiritual seekers want to improve their lives, and religious followers are more concerned with an outside force to arrive to 'save them' from the 'end of times'.

But there are some people making a difference in nature regardless whether they're spiritual or not.

Lepus

Altair 21-04-2019 07:50 AM

I don't know about clothes and jewellery Lepus! :D
I go with people's views, actions, and beliefs, and how it shapes the environment they live in, and how people are also shaped by their environment..


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lepus
I believe many don't discuss these topics is because many spiritual seekers want to improve their lives, and religious followers are more concerned with an outside force to arrive to 'save them' from the 'end of times'.


I believe it to be a reflection of the society we have created. Removed from nature, existing in but sterile man made landscapes with a handful of domesticated animals. All that remains is 'the self'. Buddhism for instance was born and raised to maturity in an urban context. Christianity believes humans are God's most precious creation. People start to imagine they are the only thing that matters, that they are the epitome of life ((central in all mainstream religion)), and that their suffering and existential dread gives a glimpse into the secret of the universe..

The connection is lost, and 'the other', be it the Earth, the animals, or other people become only tools to said individual..

You mentioned Gaia. I think this would be a good example as well. Do we worship a deity for our own gain, just as ''an aspect'' of some supersoul, or do we recognize, revere, and respect diversity of life and the very creativity of the universe, which includes some spirits occupying other bodies and having unique functions in this web of life..?

It seems to me this recognition is a taboo outside of the 'pagan' context...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lepus
But there are some people making a difference in nature regardless whether they're spiritual or not.

Yes.. that is funny. People can actually worship and revere the Earth and the Sun even if they're not using those words..
In practice I see no difference.. :wink:

Thank you for your thoughts, Lepus..

Altair 02-05-2019 01:37 PM

I came across this and thought it was well put..


Quote:

If we accept that spirituality compels us toward love, compassion, and ethical ways of living, then spirituality necessarily leads us toward a moral imperative to take better care of the Earth than we are now doing as a global society.

All living beings are inextricably connected to the Earth. We are made of her elements and minerals. We emerge from her at birth; we eat the food and drink the water that she provides; and at the end of life, we become a part of her once again.

As humans, we also intrinsically rely on far deeper aspects of our relationship with nature, such as our need for creative inspiration, peace and tranquility, and a deep interconnectedness to the energy and vibration of all life on the planet.

The Earth is a complex and intricate web. When we negatively impact our planet, we harm all beings who depend on her for life. Likewise, when we hurt people, plants, or animals, we damage the Earth as well.

If we look within, we are sure to find a longing in our hearts to protect the Earth herself from suffering and sadness, to create a world in which we can each pursue our dreams and aspirations without harming the one planet that supports the type of life that we love and treasure.
- Jocelyn Mercado https://blog.pachamama.org/the-spiri...vironmentalism


Altair 06-05-2019 06:33 PM

Humans Are Driving One Million Species to Extinction
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...to-extinction/

Quote:

Up to one million plant and animal species face extinction, many within decades, because of human activities, says the most comprehensive report yet on the state of global ecosystems.

What we do with this information, how we act, etc gives us a clue about our own spirituality. Do we care only about our own self-discovery or do we extent our self beyond that and care about the living space of our own kind and of so many others..? Do we appreciate the world and it's diversity or do we turn our backs to it and only care about the self?

Choices, choices...


Dather12 07-05-2019 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feather
Humans Are Driving One Million Species to Extinction
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...to-extinction/

What we do with this information, how we act, etc gives us a clue about our own spirituality. Do we care only about our own self-discovery or do we extent our self beyond that and care about the living space of our own kind and of so many others..? Do we appreciate the world and it's diversity or do we turn our backs to it and only care about the self?

Choices, choices...



Good point.

Ultimately we're chained onto a system of our own creation. It seems like spiritualism is a movement for people to just "be okay and accept" it, when in truth all it takes is an active choice to step off the treadmill and learn what it means to be human again, with real connections and a real voice.

ImthatIm 20-06-2019 03:44 PM

This certainly is a dilemma.

I think of and speak of Mother or Grandmother earth. I think act do and try to stay aware of Her as a relative.

It is a overwhelming subject to see or here of all the destruction.

Even Spiritual people like those that purchase crystals. Do they consider the destruction that happened when many of those crystals were mined?
It appears not.

The Grandmother earth can not continue to be raped without dire consequences.
* * * *
):icon_rendeer:(
^^^^

BlackfoxNZ 21-06-2019 09:05 PM

Many many many people lack any understanding of what they are doing and why they are doing it, I work at a Biodynamic vineyard which means they grow grapes to make wine without any chemicals and use only natural products to speak with the cosmos, but after 8 months I have not seen anyone ever do anything about talking to spirits which inhabit the lands to decide what to do, instead they just follow a procedure from a organisation based of a mans beliefs from the other side of the world, and my work colleagues believe they are doing the right thing with their hearts because they think following these practices from a country on the other side of the world is the best thing to do for grapes/plants/animals/soil which is completely different, I know that these people have no idea when they are amazed at how I take photos of things like hawks and kingfishes and other things in nature and my timing is impeccable and when I can tell them how i knew things before they happened like a good harvest because I had a kingfisher show up the day before we picked a really good bunch of grapes just as example, but this is because i do energy working, quite often I’ll channel some energy and just leave it for anything to grab and use, and i also get a hawk which comes and sits by me when their are spirits which would like some energy channeled for some plants or animal. I also have a friendly neighborhood spirit ;) which I work with ( going on 6 months ) who I have tested and proves to be incrediblely trust worth and a all round great entity who together have made it so it can push thoughts into my mind no matter what I’m doing to alert me of things before they happen on things like go a different route and get your camera out, or there is something sitting in the next row like a bird which you can take a great photo of or there will be a item which will break very soon which you will need to stop and fix etc
Another thing which shows this issues of people not understanding what they are saying or doing is what I called borrowed wisedom, a example of this my brother will say “karma’s a ***** so watch out” when he gets ****ed of with me pointing out his bull**** lies, and then doesn’t believe me when I rely with the likes of “actually you don’t know that, my karma is something beautiful”. Best example I can give of borrowed wisedom is I used a phase of “that’s just your opinion...” which I would use when people are being nasty and disrespectful and dishonest to me and then days later when I say something honest which is true for them they just go “that’s just your opinion” and only repeat because I said it to them previously, the point I’m trying to make is people will just say what they want and use labels which make them feel better and push’s them higher on their own social status without caring about what it truely means only about how it puts them in a higher social status than someone else. People will use the term spiritual for beliefs in gods cos they see someone else use it and get viewed better than themselves and because of their current nature they will use the same labels to be included into a social group/area. but this is also a problem which deals with a lot of other things like dishonesty, people believing in everything they are told, instinctively following the crowds, desires to fit into a crowd just to name a few

BlackfoxNZ 21-06-2019 09:24 PM

But it’s funny how every problem we bring up has a pattern hidden within which is it always less to more problems which then always led back to to personals actions and choices they have made in the past, which makes it very hard to combat as to attack and problem you have to attack someone’s past choices and actions which is morally not good or just let them carry on and hope they see you doing something different and follow suit, but that is still no better as they haven’t done any deep thinking yet instead just followed someone or something else.
Yes it can be done via a spiritual awakening by the masses but you still have to deal with emotions overpowering their minds creating false moral standards and disrespectful actions to others and the possibility of no respecting their own “free will” to chose what to do or say, and yes free will is a very subjective term and can fall apart in a instant when questioned but I’ll use it for reference to make it more understandable for those who may not be at such a level as others or myself,

Altair 02-07-2019 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackfoxNZ
But it’s funny how every problem we bring up has a pattern hidden within which is it always less to more problems which then always led back to to personals actions and choices they have made in the past, which makes it very hard to combat as to attack and problem you have to attack someone’s past choices and actions which is morally not good or just let them carry on and hope they see you doing something different and follow suit, but that is still no better as they haven’t done any deep thinking yet instead just followed someone or something else.
Yes it can be done via a spiritual awakening by the masses but you still have to deal with emotions overpowering their minds creating false moral standards and disrespectful actions to others and the possibility of no respecting their own “free will” to chose what to do or say, and yes free will is a very subjective term and can fall apart in a instant when questioned but I’ll use it for reference to make it more understandable for those who may not be at such a level as others or myself,


Blackfox, hello...

Any help is welcome, whether people do it because they follow suit or not, but I agree, ideally people have the necessary knowledge and insight in order to make positive changes. But with most people, and I'll give one example.. they think putting the plastic in the bin is just the ''nice thing'' to do. To make the streets clean. They do not understand the wind and streams will carry the plastic eventually into the oceans, and animals here and there will eat it as well. It is already simply too many steps to take for the average mind, hence we need proper education and good leaders, and the latter is lacking and the former stays mostly within a specific demographic..

I agree with your second paragraph. It is very easy to create false moral standards, even more so on the spiritual path when people assume that, because they can *have* a ''spiritual'' experience they are then justified in whatever it is that they are doing. So if a rapist, murderer or abuser gets a nice ''spiritual experience'' [by his own 'word' of course...] the day after he commits the deed he can say ''See, I gots zze experientz. I'm cool. We are all equally gud *fart* You can't touch me *burp* ''

It seems any clown can weasle himself out of despicable behaviour. Again, we need proper guidance, it seems we are lacking this, and this has gotten worse in this decade especially because of all sorts of crises..

We are all free, but what does it mean when that freedom depends on the lack of freedom of others or an overall decline in living standard due to a degraded ecosystem..? Do we sacrifice all common sense and living standards, including clean air and water, and health of ecosystems just so we can say ''I can pollute and I am free to do as I please''..?

This would only mean we have a serious lack of wisdom..

PS. could you please use points next time? :>



BigJohn 30-07-2019 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackraven
Altair - I agree with everything you said. I have recycled for years and years and it was just recently that I learned that most of recycled materials end up in landfills due to the cost of shipping and other logistics on towns and cities across countries. So I have decided to reduce my footprint by buying less food that comes in packaging.


Most governments forgot to really do recycling. They took the easy way out which was to pack the garbage and ship it to China for the cottage industries.

The movie "Plastic China" alerted china to the problem. Now China only accepts garbage that meets Chinese standards.

BigJohn 30-07-2019 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
Humans Are Driving One Million Species to Extinction
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...to-extinction/



What we do with this information, how we act, etc gives us a clue about our own spirituality. Do we care only about our own self-discovery or do we extent our self beyond that and care about the living space of our own kind and of so many others..? Do we appreciate the world and it's diversity or do we turn our backs to it and only care about the self?

Choices, choices...



When so many pray for Mother Earth's evolution, do they realize those prayers might have consequences?

Altair 02-09-2019 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn
When so many pray for Mother Earth's evolution, do they realize those prayers might have consequences?


Hi John.
Those prayers don't do all that much, except make the individual lose his/her current stress. Prayer is not going to fix any environmental mess we've made. Same way meditation doesn't cure the world's ills. Any larger and more serious issues are tackled or improved through action, not in-action.

Thanks for dropping by...

Blue Tiger 02-09-2019 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
Humans Are Driving One Million Species to Extinction
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...to-extinction/



What we do with this information, how we act, etc gives us a clue about our own spirituality. Do we care only about our own self-discovery or do we extent our self beyond that and care about the living space of our own kind and of so many others..? Do we appreciate the world and it's diversity or do we turn our backs to it and only care about the self?

Choices, choices...



It's all true, people are essentially destroying the world. But now what?

I am one person in an urban setting. We have mostly perpetual drought here so trying to grow anything is really a struggle. I've tried. If I could stay at home and tend to the needs of plants, I could do it. But reality says I need to pay my bills or I'll be out on the street. Nothing huge mind you, just mortgage, utilities, cable, but those bills are quite limiting.

Do I talk about the environment and species extinctions? No. Why not? Because that causes massive anxiety for me. It's one thing to recognize the problem, but to then realize there is nothing you can do to fix it? It's agonizing.

I watch politicians and wealthy people struggle to gain more more more. Always more. Will they ever be satisfied and recognize that they, too, could face extinction some day? Not very likely.

Yet those same politicians and wealth people are the very ones who set policy and actually have power to institute change.

And yes, I'm a spiritualist. That's not just to do with believing in spirits, heavens no. The overarching belief is in God and the perpetuation of life energy. About the ultimate reunion with Source.

But that in no way implies spiritualists don't care what's happening in nature. They tend to take in strays, plant butterfly gardens, help the down-and-out. They also don't ballyhoo and shout their efforts from rooftops. They tend to be quiet and not interested in being in the limelight.

The recycling thing really upset me too. I've recycled for decades now, and then to learn that it all ends up in landfills ANYWAY???? Because there isn't a market for it anymore and no one wants our used aluminum cans...

BigJohn 03-09-2019 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Tiger
The recycling thing really upset me too. I've recycled for decades now, and then to learn that it all ends up in landfills ANYWAY???? Because there isn't a market for it anymore and no one wants our used aluminum cans...

...... ends up in a landfill or is incinerated.

There is a market for aluminum cans. One item homeless people collect
so as to sell them is aluminum cans.
The governments can't do it for a profit so
they try telling us there is no market.

Go to a 3rd world country and you will be
surprised how much is recycled.

Altair 03-09-2019 08:28 PM

I talked about this topic with some people during a yoga week this summer, and they mentioned how they liked watching nature documentaries but disliked any ''negative'' parts about the destruction caused by people, so trying to avoid those parts, turn off the TV, not read any news etc. In other words, shield yourself from reality because the nastier bits are best tackled by pretending they do not exist. I think closing ourselves off from problems is as much a choice with consequences as trying to improve things. The in-action itself is also an action.

And I think that is the key here, and a core issue I see with much of modern spirituality. The modern spiritual movements are soft and prefer to live in a bubble, scared to be confronted by anything or anyone. Modern spirituality is almost saying... ''You go and behave like the passive fairytale princess, and you will be enlightened.'' Elsewhere I talked about it with another guy, who like me, observed the same in spiritual circles, that there are those whom are too much ''in the clouds'', focussing on ''higher chakras'', so much so that they become imbalanced and incapable of taking care of their bodies, and are scared to speak up about anything.

It's this denial of the earth, not just taking care of our home, but also in spiritual practice (such as ignoring lower chakras) that is just not at all helpful to us in any way, shape, or form. This is what I view as the core issue with modern spirituality. Not taking care of a base, not having any fundament to stand upon. This lack creates a mess. Collectively, we need to get ''down to earth'', both literally and spiritually.

Pagandell 03-09-2019 09:32 PM

This is a good thread Altair, I will not repeat what other peeps have allready said about are dear mouther earth, but I

do have something to contribute, but i'm working on it. :D

ocean breeze 04-09-2019 09:36 AM

On a human level, the rate at which we are destroying the planet is horrifying. Like parasites. Just hearing about the fires in the Amazon. And i just recently came back from visiting the Amazon rainforest. The diversity of plants and animals dying there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upU1hlPXBpY&t=8s

Native spirit 04-09-2019 10:14 AM

Humankind is the scurge of the Earth they are not happy until they destroy everything. Mother nature will only take so much there will always be consequences for what has been done,
they put things into space destroying the layer in which we were protected.they burn or cut down trees,

Floods will follow there will be nothing to soak up the water, MONEY is the big calling card doesn't matter what you destroy as long as you can pay for it. animals being killed for money. I cant wait for the Hunted to become the Hunter.


Namaste

Altair 04-09-2019 11:18 AM

@ Native Spirit: Yes, BUT... it doesn't have to be that way..:tongue:
We can do much better than we do, surely. I am hoping human communities in the future, at some point, will have achieved true harmony.

@ Ocean Breeze: That must have been dreadful to realize, after a nice adventure/exploration. I went to Costa Rica myself, and they have issues too, but they take conservation rather seriously compared to most other countries. It gives me some relief. But it also helps a lot CR is mostly hilly and mountainous. Brazil is mostly flat which makes agricultural exploitation and ''efficient land use'' very easy.

Most rainforests in South America are destroyed by wealthy farmers who seek more space so that more cows can enter this world! Big profit made from Big Beef.. :wink:

@ Pagandell: Nice to see you here! :smile:

BigJohn 06-09-2019 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocean breeze
On a human level, the rate at which we are destroying the planet is horrifying. Like parasites. Just hearing about the fires in the Amazon. And i just recently came back from visiting the Amazon rainforest. The diversity of plants and animals dying there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upU1hlPXBpY&t=8s

Some claim we have only 12 years left.... this was last year. So we now have only 11 years.
The burning of the Amazon reduces the 11 years to about 5 years.
We also have to realize the Amazon fires have dramatically, or at least we are impressed with this thought, that huge amounts
of CO2 have been put into the air which reduces the 5 years to 2-3 years. I just hope these figures are accurate.

BigJohn 06-09-2019 06:51 AM

People have the tendency to blame all of the planet's problem on humans.
I think some of the blame has to be directed toward the weasel(s) who would steal and eat my chickens.
The mountain lion who stalked, killed and ate part of a deer ........
The beavers who built their dam beside a bridge..........

and then there are the jokers such as the skunk that fragrants the air
or the porcupine who gave some of her quills to my dog. As I removed
the quills from my dog's face, I put the quills to my side....
only to move over and I ended up with the quills in my butt.

Busby 06-09-2019 11:23 AM

Maybe the way things are or are seemingly developing is simply a facet of evolution. Maybe the path of evolution simply reflects at this moment the total 'truth'. You and me, your great grandmother and auntie Sally have all brought the present moment about by their and our thoughts, words and deeds. We are the ones who need plastic bags, plastic computers, plastic aeroplanes and plastic packings and accessories of all kinds.

Maybe nature is simply responding to our desires.

We don't know if that which we call evolution has a goal but as we have seen what it is capable of over 14 billion years perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty in our assumption that something is going wrong.

Maybe nature (us and ours) is granting us our wishes as part of (another?) great experiment.

As this planet is one of say 200 trillion others and is slipping through the safety net it isn't even going to show up on the radar.

'God' told us to 'be fruitful and multiply' and that's what we've done, and done well - it must be part of a plan.

BigJohn 08-09-2019 05:03 AM

I use to go to a Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) place that was located in an area most White People rarely visited.
I was always amazed that they remembered I always drank my Pepsi without ice. Like everybody else,
my drink was always served in a real glass. Food was always served on ceramics and everybody
ate with metal flatware. As I reflected on those visits, I remembered they never served napkins.
I assumed all the food scraps were gathered up and fed to such animals as pigs.
I almost forgot........ they produced virtually no garbage.

blackraven 08-09-2019 07:00 PM

Altair - This is a wonderful thread!

It seems at current humans threaten the earth's delicate ecosystem with mounds of one-use items that can't be recycled. For example: water bottles seem to me to be one of the biggest mistakes. Some companies with mineral type water in plastic bottles are catching on to waste contribution and have now made some bottled water in plastic refundable with a deposit just like soft drinks. I would like to see that across all beverages that come in plastic.

Another example: Feminine hygiene products made of plastic such as tampon applicators. I feel that replacing disposable applicators with plastic was a sad move on the industry.

Marketing and profits seem to take precedence over ecosystem sustainability and recovery. I hope that the next generations coming up have a greater sense of responsibility to the planet in that they see the urgency to stop building the landfills for greater waste dumping and oceanic pollution.

Altair 08-09-2019 09:20 PM

Came across this, it relates directly to the topic I've raised..

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ian-archbishop

It's nice to see that some christians have some ecological awareness. I also appreciated the Pope's Laudato Si' encyclical of 2014. He links the issues we are facing, albeit from a more religious perspective. It's worth a read.


@blackraven; concerning the water bottles.. there are of course ways to counter that easily, with non-plastic bottles that one can use for tapping water. You only need to wash it once a week or so, but it is not made from plastic so no micro-plastics in your body either. It is increasingly common in my country and there's basically almost never a reason for me to buy water.

blackraven 08-09-2019 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
Came across this, it relates directly to the topic I've raised..

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ian-archbishop

It's nice to see that some christians have some ecological awareness. I also appreciated the Pope's Laudato Si' encyclical of 2014. He links the issues we are facing, albeit from a more religious perspective.


@blackraven; concerning the water bottles.. there are of course ways to counter that easily, with non-plastic bottles that one can use for tapping water. You only need to wash it once a week or so, but it is not made from plastic so no micro-plastics in your body either. It is increasingly common in my country and there's basically almost never a reason for me to buy water.


Thanks for the link, Altair. I personally don't buy bottled water. I live on a well and refill glass bottles after the well water is filtered through an R.O. system.

This is a convenience society, at least in the country I live in and instead of bringing water from home when out, lots of people just pop into the convenient store or gas station and get bottled water. When I'm at the grocery store I see people buying bottled water by 48 bottles at a time. Just makes me think about whether or not they're recycling. Hopefully. Sorry for always responding with 'declining state of nature' responses only without adding the 'Spiritual communities' side of the topic of your thread.

blackraven 18-09-2019 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altair
Came across this, it relates directly to the topic I've raised..

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ian-archbishop

It's nice to see that some christians have some ecological awareness. I also appreciated the Pope's Laudato Si' encyclical of 2014. He links the issues we are facing, albeit from a more religious perspective. It's worth a read.


@blackraven; concerning the water bottles.. there are of course ways to counter that easily, with non-plastic bottles that one can use for tapping water. You only need to wash it once a week or so, but it is not made from plastic so no micro-plastics in your body either. It is increasingly common in my country and there's basically almost never a reason for me to buy water.


Altair - The amazon forest fires is sad evidence that mankind deems profits more imperative than life force. Climate change and the destruction of delicate ecosystems is a reality that scares those who have a global consciousness and want not only to be able to breathe and sustain life, but for future generations to have a planet they can live on. What we've already done and are doing today will effect climate change tomorrow, regardless to changing our behavior. But that's no excuse not to STOP mankind's damaging behavior right now. At some point, without change, we will reach the point of no return. It will then be too late!


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