Spiritual Forums

Spiritual Forums (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/index.php)
-   Science & Spirituality (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   All models are wrong (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=141721)

Guillaume 12-10-2021 06:38 AM

All models are wrong
 
but some are useful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

What do you think, especially regarding spiritual models of reality, but also conspiracies or anything that comes to your mind?

Rokazulu 19-11-2021 12:43 AM

Yes, this is right.

I would rather say all models are right though. For it would be saying the same thing just in the positive.

FallingLeaves 19-11-2021 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume

What do you think, especially regarding spiritual models of reality, but also conspiracies or anything that comes to your mind?


i read in the bible once, long ago, but I've long since forgotten where... that this reality is constructed in such a way that none of us can get an accurate model of what it is. According to *that* model any attempt to try in any arena we want to try it in will leave those of us who want it with a 'wrong' answer.

I always wanna believe I could find 'the' answer anyway... Gotta love that cherubim/flaming sword.

It is even in vogue to think such a negative model must necessarily be wrong just because of its negative stance and use that as a justification to not even consider the idea!

ungraspable... something else done in the furtherance of 'life' AFAICT.

but that doesn't mean there isn't some grain of truth in every model... trick to navigating as some have observed is not to be either too attached to or too detached from anything in particular.

Gem 19-11-2021 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume
but some are useful.

There is a difference between saying 'the map is not the territory' and saying 'the map is wrong'. If the map models the terrain correctly, the model is useful, but the map doesn't recreate the territory. Indeed, If it did, it would be useless. Therefore, if a model is 'right', it is also useless.

utopiandreamchild 20-11-2021 06:37 AM

They're just not the models that are useful that's all, they're not wrong, only one thing is wrong and that's 'hate".
utopia

Guillaume 21-11-2021 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
the model is useful, but the map doesn't recreate the territory. Indeed, If it did, it would be useless. Therefore, if a model is 'right', it is also useless.

I don't follow you on that logic.
You're going from "all models are wrong some are useful" to "right or wrong, they're all useless". Quite a jump!

I don't get the "recreate", models don't do anything. Models can give directions, explanations, then it's up to us to interpret and use what they tell, trust them or not.
Land maps for instance are never 100% accurate, but we use them all the time because they're accurate enough for our purpose.

Guillaume 21-11-2021 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
i read in the bible once, long ago, but I've long since forgotten where... that this reality is constructed in such a way that none of us can get an accurate model of what it is. According to *that* model any attempt to try in any arena we want to try it in will leave those of us who want it with a 'wrong' answer.

Yes, right. On a larger scope, our own model of reality is based on what our brain can perceive, and its capacity.
We can't have the whole universe in our brain, except if our brain is the universe itself!
Some enlightened people seem to have had access to that full knowledge, but then had to come back to their limited brain and limited language to communicate.


In that regard, I now tend to think that "intuition" is precisely avoiding the use of our wrong model. Higher intuition I mean. It's like admitting the limited capacity of our brain and letting God / the Universe tell us the truth.

MysticalShaman 21-11-2021 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume
Yes, right. On a larger scope, our own model of reality is based on what our brain can perceive, and its capacity.
We can't have the whole universe in our brain, except if our brain is the universe itself!
Some enlightened people seem to have had access to that full knowledge, but then had to come back to their limited brain and limited language to communicate.


In that regard, I now tend to think that "intuition" is precisely avoiding the use of our wrong model. Higher intuition I mean. It's like admitting the limited capacity of our brain and letting God / the Universe tell us the truth.



You can be enlightened and still struggle, like enlightenment doesnít stop your humanity. It just means you have that overview perspective.

You can be enlightened and still choose to ignore your intuition- but the universe may come back with a slap :L

Gem 22-11-2021 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume
I don't follow you on that logic.

A map is 'not right but useful' because it represents some info about the terrain. If a map had all the information of the terrain it would be the same as the terrain, and therefore superfluous. This means a model necessarily needs to be not-right to be useful.

Guillaume 22-11-2021 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticalShaman
You can be enlightened and still choose to ignore your intuition- but the universe may come back with a slap :L

lol, enlightened or not, I know that for a long time!

Guillaume 22-11-2021 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
If a map had all the information of the terrain it would be the same as the terrain, and therefore superfluous. This means a model necessarily needs to be not-right to be useful.

Ah you're saying the same as me! One step further and you'll come to the conclusion that all models are wrong but some are useful :)

Btw the map is not the territory, that analogy is used in French as well.

Gatekeeper517 01-12-2021 08:12 PM

I like to say all models' are incomplete. Mix and match them, be honest, and apply the same logic to our personal beliefs as we do others.

err ...wait a min ... maybe we shouldn't do that. Many people judge others illogically,

FallingLeaves 02-12-2021 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem
A map is 'not right but useful' because it represents some info about the terrain. If a map had all the information of the terrain it would be the same as the terrain, and therefore superfluous. This means a model necessarily needs to be not-right to be useful.


some maps are more useful than others though, even when the maps try to map out the same terrain. Because the tools used to make the map factor into it too... bad tools lead to a less useful map... It is really really easy to get a less useful map as far as I can tell....

FallingLeaves 02-12-2021 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume
In that regard, I now tend to think that "intuition" is precisely avoiding the use of our wrong model. Higher intuition I mean. It's like admitting the limited capacity of our brain and letting God / the Universe tell us the truth.


it seems almost a truism that a lot of what we see is a direct result of our previous decisions as to what we wanted to see... LOA is often lauded for the same reason this thread talks about, its usefulness, but it leads only to MAYA...

it is like a theatre, if you will but pay for the ticket you get to choose what movie to watch. Then you can make a map for the movie and have fun talking about it?

Sir Neil 12-12-2021 02:58 PM

Models are like horoscopes. They show us a potential future, and it will become reality if we invest enough mental focus in it. They work by the power of suggestion.

lostsoul13 29-12-2021 02:42 PM

I swear Iíve figured out the answers in form of equations

Guillaume 29-12-2021 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostsoul13
I swear Iíve figured out the answers in form of equations

Did you get 42 as the solution? ;)


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums