what are men attracted to in women

[Roselove]

i realize all men are different but in general.. lol i can't figure men out!

[PrincessKLS]

Me either. I could go on a rant that men only care about looks but I know it's not true and I know women are just as guilty. But also beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what one might find beautiful another finds it to be ugly. There's only a complication when the two or more parties involved feel that one is not pretty enough for the other. Lately most of the men who have found me pretty, I've been repulsed by.

[Stormweaver]

What attracts me from a woman

1: A woman who smells nice, has a good sense of clothes that suits her figure, and has a kind face, with an opened heart to make new friends.

What I would like to see inside a woman who I am attracted to
1: feminine towards me, but a tiger towards strangers who wants to bully her, or her offsprings.
2: Knows when to keep quiet when her man is in business mode through conversations, or physical quarrels.
3: have her own instincts to share when its the right time, especially at home.
4: knows when her man is in the wrong, and to be calm and to correct him at home.
5: knows how to forgive her man, and in return her man will do the same.
6: not to look for trouble.
7: do the housework if her man goes to work and she doesnt.
8: to be able to accept the level of our quality of material life. Not expecting to drive a Mercedes Benz.
9: must be in her natures heart to have stamina in going out to have fun.
10 : she must understand me from inside out, otherwise its going to become a game of divorce.

I have found me wife after crossing the oceans. She does not fit all the categories that I have wished for, but its the best fish I could catch as I am not a great bait.

_/\_ Namaste.

[supernova]

Me either. I could go on a rant that men only care about looks but I know it's not true and I know women are just as guilty. But also beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what one might find beautiful another finds it to be ugly. There's only a complication when the two or more parties involved feel that one is not pretty enough for the other. Lately most of the men who have found me pretty, I've been repulsed by.

I agree with you. It is always the beholder who can decide. We cannot exactly say what beauty is. It is a state of mind. The same person will look different to different beholders

[psychoslice]

i realize all men are different but in general.. lol i can't figure men out!
You just haven't met that right ones, that's all.

[xxSaffronxx]

What attracts me from a woman

1: A woman who smells nice, has a good sense of clothes that suits her figure, and has a kind face, with an opened heart to make new friends.

What I would like to see inside a woman who I am attracted to
1: feminine towards me, but a tiger towards strangers who wants to bully her, or her offsprings.
2: Knows when to keep quiet when her man is in business mode through conversations, or physical quarrels.
3: have her own instincts to share when its the right time, especially at home.
4: knows when her man is in the wrong, and to be calm and to correct him at home.
5: knows how to forgive her man, and in return her man will do the same.
6: not to look for trouble.
7: do the housework if her man goes to work and she doesnt.
8: to be able to accept the level of our quality of material life. Not expecting to drive a Mercedes Benz.
9: must be in her natures heart to have stamina in going out to have fun.
10 : she must understand me from inside out, otherwise its going to become a game of divorce.

I have found me wife after crossing the oceans. She does not fit all the categories that I have wished for, but its the best fish I could catch as I am not a great bait.

_/\_ Namaste.

I love your honest post. It very nice to hear what men like in us women :smile:
I particularly like point 1

Im interested in point 2 though about the physical quarrels. Does this mean if you end up in a fight?
Cos if it does I would want to intervene if my loved one got into a fight as I wouldnt want him to get hurt :hug2:

[A peaceful mind.]

In general I would say the lack of feminine things the man is missing. We all have masculine and feminine sides and of cause we are attracted to the things we don't have ore have little of.

This are the things we seek (some knows it some do sent)

Then there are the things that are a match (feminine /masculine), the things we have and that we see others have. These things are also important since we need to feel as one.

I hope it helps...

[Roselove]

thank you all

[BlueSky]

I think people are attracted to that which they see in another that they desire or sense that they lack.
I have been married to my opposite for 31 years now and I can see how we have become like each other in areas where we were not before.
For example my wife has always been more grounded and spontaneous where I had my head too much in the clouds and where I had to read the instructions before putting the kids bike together.
Now, I am very grounded and spontaneous but I am balanced and so is she in so many ways.
I don't know if this addresses your question Rosewater but it is what came to mind as I read it.
Keep in mind too, that you are very young and all of this I speak of above today was preceded by years of arguing and not recognizing how much we compliment each other.
With age comes wisdom...................give it time and enjoy the ride..................James

[Roselove]

that makes perfect sense whiteshaman thanks!

[BlueSky]

that makes perfect sense whiteshaman thanks!

You are very welcome! :hug3:

[Skull]

This may not fit all men, but a large percentage. We are not looking - period. At least not in the way women "look".

Women look for short term lust, yes, but always wanting lasting love, safety, home, family, excitement etc also.

Men just lust. Only after spending enough time with a lover does the woman's deeper desires filter through to the man. Then he may want what she wants - but it is an addition - not as natural as her multi-faceted desires.

[John32241]

i realize all men are different but in general.. lol i can't figure men out!

The answer is actually quite simple. Every man wants to feel loved. The kind of love he received from his mother, that was an all accepting affection.

Now I realize that every relationship can be improved. The ladies may well know what that would be. Understanding how to do that is quite another story. Virtually every relation break up is due to ignorance about this subject. Sometimes I think that there is no desire to understand.

This is how I see it.

John

[LaMont Cranston]

Rosewater, You ask about a great subject, and I want to jump into the discussion, so here goes...

When I was younger, I was quite shy and inept with women. When I was about 30, I met the true love of my life, and we have been married for 36 years now (on November 28). After all this time, I am delighted to say that I still think my wife is great, and I love her more than ever.

This is not to say that there have not been problems and issues in our relationship. That's one of the things that relationships are about, but, mostly, they are about sharing your life with another human being the best way that you can.

I've also got to say that I would take issue with some of the other male posters on this thread. I don't want to be involved with a weak, submissive woman. By me, only weak men want that. I want to be involved with a woman who is strong and has a high degree of certainty about who she is and what she wants.

I want a woman who has a sense of humor (extremely important) and sees the importance of having fun in life.

I want a woman who will bring out the best in me. I believe that, somewhere in all of us, there is a desire to be the best individuals that we can. For me, that means being loving, kind, grateful, forgiving, compassionate and on and on. That doesn't mean that I am all of those things all of the time. Sometimes, we all "fall of the wagon," but when that happens, that's the time for such things as genuine forgiveness and apologies.

I agree with John32241 that virtually every relationship break up is due to ignorance. I disagree that there is no desire to understand. Most people do have that desire, but there's a lot of not very good information out in the world, and once people lose hope, they don't know where to go for better information.

In my experience, many people give up on their relationships too soon, thinking that the next one will be better. Usually, it doesn't work out that way. There's a lot to be said for hanging in and finding ways to have things be better.

OK, I hope that some of this is helpful. Take care...

[Roselove]

all great responses thank you!

[LightFilledHeart]

Hi LaMont,


As I read your post I found myself nodding in the affirmative as a soft smile curved my mouth. It was as if I were hearing the voice of my beloved Twin-Soul and late husband who always said, "Give me a woman who knows who she is and the value of that over a submissive, mealy-mouthed, yes-woman ANY day!" It was as you said... he knew who HE was, and he wanted an equal life partner, not a clingy, empty vessel looking to him as if she could define herself simply by virtue of being his partner..!


Like you he also loved humor, and required that in a mate as well. We had many good laughs over the years and enjoyed the occasional teasing, bantering repartee.

I believe I did bring out the best in him with all the things you mention ...love, kindness, compassion, understanding, etc... but then he did likewise for me! Love does not coddle the loved one and make excuses for them... love demands what is highest and best in the one they love, for only can the loved one then be fulfilled! Of course we both knew how to forgive and to apologize.. we were NOT of the belief that "Love means never having to say your sorry", as the line from that famous old movie goes..!


We had 22 years of wedded bliss before he was taken, but that's not to say there weren't challenges or hard times.. of course there were! But our love was strong, committed, and forever. It never occurred to either of us to "bail" when the going got rough... we just worked to make it better. Leaving one relationship because you are dissatisified or because each and every one of your needs it not being met is a sure recipe for failure in a second. NO ONE can meet all another's needs... we are each responsible for doing that for ourselves, and/or for finding friends and family members to "fill in the blanks" if our mate is incapable of doing so. Abandoning a long term relationship that has withstood the test of time for a new and exciting one is the mark of an immature human being and an every more immature soul.


That's my truth. It may not be everyone's :smile:

[Smiler]

Hi Rosewater

I really like you thread.. I am a woman and I have no idea what a man wants .. I wonder what I want in a man more.. compassion, kindness, strength, loyality, empathy, passion, ambition to live his dream and allow me to live mine! Truth, trust . honesty... Eye contact >> Respect for each other as individuals, attraction! Humour a sense of spiritual belief or humanity..mmmm my list is rather big! But I believe if you have respect and something truly in common like morals values and beliefs the winters in the relationships soon turn to summers.. the disargreements teach each other that " hey I am me" ... The men I have meet have wanted what some of the guys have mentioned on your thread ( no offense guys this is not directed at you men on here) but have not been able to return what they desire!

Blessings
:)

[Smiler]

oh and ps... I am not a relationship jumper .. I tend to stay too long.. some tough times are more than tough .. they are just wrong!

Love does exist.. think about what you want :)

xo

[CuriousSnowflake]

i realize all men are different but in general.. lol i can't figure men out!

For me...

1) The ability to make me laugh.
2) Comfortable with herself as a sexual being.
3) An intelligent, open, and curious mind.
4) A view of the world that it is more than it appears.

Things I find very unattractive...

1) A woman who pretends to be dumber than she actually is. This is way worse than just being not-so-bright.
2) Prudery or any form of sexual repression.
3) An overabundance of concern over her appearance. Takes care of herself and wants to look nice, cool. Work-out freaks and women that spend 3 hours getting ready for anything less than a formal dinner need not apply
4) A closed mind. Doesn't matter what it is, hard core atheism, determined Veganism, or even a refusal to watch spectator sports, if you're not willing to accept a new perspective from time to time, I'm not interested.

Luckily, I've found someone who meets my criteria: an intelligent, sexy, open-minded lady that makes me laugh long and loud at least twice a day. Been married 10 years last month. Is she perfect? Of course not, and neither am I. We both know that, and that's what makes it work.

CS

[Stormweaver]

I love your honest post. It very nice to hear what men like in us women :smile:
I particularly like point 1

Im interested in point 2 though about the physical quarrels. Does this mean if you end up in a fight?
Cos if it does I would want to intervene if my loved one got into a fight as I wouldnt want him to get hurt :hug2:
Hi Saffron

Yeah just incase there is a fight, because I wouldnt want to see me wife get hurt.

Your man is very lucky to have you as his woman. Takes courage to risk yourself for a loved one. True love.


Namaste _/\_

[Gracey]

The answer is actually quite simple. Every man wants to feel loved. The kind of love he received from his mother, that was an all accepting affection.

Now I realize that every relationship can be improved. The ladies may well know what that would be. Understanding how to do that is quite another story. Virtually every relation break up is due to ignorance about this subject. Sometimes I think that there is no desire to understand.

This is how I see it.

John

just to be loved, i have heard that a lot from men. so i would agree.

[bilko]

The way she moves is the first thing i would notice. Graceful yet practical. I'm not talking about swinging hips, thats eroticism.
Maybe a tilt in the head, a flash of a smile.
Cast a smile at me and i'll be hooked.

It breaks down defenses, it says we are compatible ( initially at least ) and you will see for a moment the true nature of the man you are meeting.

Be feminine but not too dianic. Men, or should i say 80% of us slightly self conscious men need to feel needed. I don't like makeup or skimpy dresses. Maybe the faint waft of something classic, i always liked Anais Anais.

[xxSaffronxx]

Hi Saffron

Yeah just incase there is a fight, because I wouldnt want to see me wife get hurt.

Your man is very lucky to have you as his woman. Takes courage to risk yourself for a loved one. True love.


Namaste _/\_
I wouldnt need to intervene mind you but I would if needed - my fella was a kickboxing instructor so he would be fine on his own, but I still would not want to see him get hurt :smile:

[xxSaffronxx]

Hi LaMont,


As I read your post I found myself nodding in the affirmative as a soft smile curved my mouth. It was as if I were hearing the voice of my beloved Twin-Soul and late husband who always said, "Give me a woman who knows who she is and the value of that over a submissive, mealy-mouthed, yes-woman ANY day!" It was as you said... he knew who HE was, and he wanted an equal life partner, not a clingy, empty vessel looking to him as if she could define herself simply by virtue of being his partner..!


Like you he also loved humor, and required that in a mate as well. We had many good laughs over the years and enjoyed the occasional teasing, bantering repartee.

I believe I did bring out the best in him with all the things you mention ...love, kindness, compassion, understanding, etc... but then he did likewise for me! Love does not coddle the loved one and make excuses for them... love demands what is highest and best in the one they love, for only can the loved one then be fulfilled! Of course we both knew how to forgive and to apologize.. we were NOT of the belief that "Love means never having to say your sorry", as the line from that famous old movie goes..!


We had 22 years of wedded bliss before he was taken, but that's not to say there weren't challenges or hard times.. of course there were! But our love was strong, committed, and forever. It never occurred to either of us to "bail" when the going got rough... we just worked to make it better. Leaving one relationship because you are dissatisified or because each and every one of your needs it not being met is a sure recipe for failure in a second. NO ONE can meet all another's needs... we are each responsible for doing that for ourselves, and/or for finding friends and family members to "fill in the blanks" if our mate is incapable of doing so. Abandoning a long term relationship that has withstood the test of time for a new and exciting one is the mark of an immature human being and an every more immature soul.


That's my truth. It may not be everyone's :smile:
I love that and it truly resonated with me. Sorry to hear your husband is now in spirit, mine too so I know how you feel. :hug:

I agree with everything you have said and it was the same in our relationship.



The answer is actually quite simple. Every man wants to feel loved. The kind of love he received from his mother, that was an all accepting affection.

I have to agree with this also. Particularly as my partner didnt get that kind of affection from his mother & father.

I was told by a medium a few months ago that in the time my partner & I had together, I gave him a lifetime of love.
I believe therefore I loved him in the best way I could and the way that he needed. (I knew this without going to a medium, but it was nice to hear that from him)

[John32241]

I have to agree with this also. Particularly as my partner didnt get that kind of affection from his mother & father.

I was told by a medium a few months ago that in the time my partner & I had together, I gave him a lifetime of love.
I believe therefore I loved him in the best way I could and the way that he needed. (I knew this without going to a medium, but it was nice to hear that from him)

Yes I would agree with each of you.

This thread reminds me of a somewhat shocking revelation from the last Kryon book about gender relationships.


The Twelve Layers of DNA by Lee Carroll from publisher: Platinum Publishing House.

Layer Eleven: Wise Divine Feminine - God Layer Two

The women will smile and the men will roll their eyes, for here comes another lesson in Goddess energy, so they believe. Well it isn't. It's a lesson in balance, and one that the Human race has not had since the Pleiadians arrived and gave it to you. This is the Pure Compassion and Mother layer.

Again, it's a multidimensional layer that is everywhere at the same time and is part of the God layers that do nothing unless you call on them. It's in an entangled state with the other layers, which is the fact that it's truly quantum and cannot be seen as an individual energy.

Here is the truth: Human nature has been unbalanced for eons, and the shift before you is starting to make a difference in the male/female balance of the Human Being. Your consciousness is not controlled by the brain or the genes. It's controlled by the subconsciousness of an Akashic experience. How did men behave and how did woman behave in history? So, therefore, what is your role in life? It begins with the blueprint of information contained in your DNA as energetic history. Then it either evolves or de-evolves as your free choice carries you into unchartered territory.

The gender issue of humanity hasn't been balanced for a very long time, and since the males are larger, they win. It's about the most elementary and unenlightened feature of humanity, which never moved from the animals they saw around them -- except the animals shared more than the Humans did! You might say that humanity continues to be at the lowest point of male/female balance than it ever was.

Layer 11 exists to help balance the compassionate Human Being so that the wise, divine feminine can show through both the men and the women. Your history is filled with it, yet you still don't honor it.

...

Yes, there is a layer of your DNA that sees the gender issue from both sides, since an old soul has been both genders! It calls upon the best of both and gives you the feelings of being both and not just one. This creates a feeling of ultimate respect for the gender that you are not this time around, and helps you to make decisions based on this. Imagine a man who has the "feelings" of childbirth or the woman who knows what it's like to line up on the battlefield. It's all in there, dear ones, and ready to be balanced in a way that is natural, normal, and pulls from the Akashic Record of all the lifetimes of old souls on the planet.


The insight that came to me from this message was that our Inner Child is always listening how we talk about the other gender. For example, if we are a guy talking about girls, that inner girl child remembers what we expressed. In the next lifetime as a girl, that inner boy child remembers what we say about the guys to our girlfriends. I suspect that this process gets repeated for hundreds/thousands of lifetimes.

Has humanity actually reached the all time lowest point in gender relations ever imagined? Kryon mentioned that there will be another Venus Transit in June of 2012. This normally happens every hundred years or so however we need it again, right now.

I think that this thread has deeper implications that I suspect we all wish to know about.

John

[CuriousSnowflake]

i realize all men are different but in general.. lol i can't figure men out!

The real questions is not what do men want, but what is it you find so inscrutable about them? Men are much more closely connected to the animal and intellectual aspects of human nature, while women are closer to the spiritual and emotional aspects. Another thing to remember is that, biologically speaking, humans are wired to be what is called "low level polygynists". What that means in English is that other species that have constant fertility, a similar female to male size ratio, and a slightly higher proportion of females to males tend towards males having several "wives" and females being faithful to one male.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with monogamy (I happen to love it), nor that we should all run off and join the FLDS. The wonderful thing about the human intellect is that it allows us to choose our behaviors instead of them being instinctually preordained. This means we can choose monogamy, even if it rubs against our biology. But the instinct is still there, and is born out in our patterns of sexuality, marital faithfulness, and stereotypes.

CS

[Kapitan_Prien]

One of the main things for me is that a woman has to understand that not all men are 'muscle men' and to see the inner strength in men that are not 'all muscle' (like me).

I often see women drawn to 'muscular men' and it is very hard on me (along with the societal expectations) - because I have CFS and muscle weakness, I don't fit in the 'macho' category...but I have a great inner strength which has helped me overcome Fibromyalgia and Sciatica...and hopefully the CFS.

I like a woman who will stand up for herself and not take nonsense from anyone.

Other things - related hobbies...she's got to be into vintage/retro living (particularly the 1930s...although I like the 1920s too...so if she's got the 'flapper look' - I think that's cool!)...So she's also got to be bold enough to dress differently and not care what other people think.

At the same time - she can't be so loose that her personality is 'too much' for me (try to keep up with her with my CFS).

In touch with her spiritual side (preferably in a down-to-earth way) - natural healing - and an omnivore!

I could go on...but I guess that's a start...LoL.

[Rumar]

I, myself, am attracted to women in many ways, the usual things that every guy is attracted to is physical features alongside more than just physical (such as personality and intelligence).

I want my girl to be able to understand my jokes, they're very simple, there's not much to think about but a lot of people tend to be too butt tight to even let the joke have the effect. I am spontaneous, smart, funny, random, and I want my girl to be able to share that with me.

I like my girl to have good wits, a good head on her shoulders, able to joke around, play games with me, enjoy a lot that I enjoy. I don't like a stuck up girl, I want a caring girl who I can cuddle and snug up to as well.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Bilko: Be feminine but not too dianic. Men, or should i say 80% of us slightly self conscious men need to feel needed.

I'd say that goes for myself too.

[Roselove]

One of the main things for me is that a woman has to understand that not all men are 'muscle men' and to see the inner strength in men that are not 'all muscle' (like me).

I often see women drawn to 'muscular men' and it is very hard on me (along with the societal expectations) - because I have CFS and muscle weakness, I don't fit in the 'macho' category...but I have a great inner strength which has helped me overcome Fibromyalgia and Sciatica...and hopefully the CFS.

I like a woman who will stand up for herself and not take nonsense from anyone.

Other things - related hobbies...she's got to be into vintage/retro living (particularly the 1930s...although I like the 1920s too...so if she's got the 'flapper look' - I think that's cool!)...So she's also got to be bold enough to dress differently and not care what other people think.

At the same time - she can't be so loose that her personality is 'too much' for me (try to keep up with her with my CFS).

In touch with her spiritual side (preferably in a down-to-earth way) - natural healing - and an omnivore!

I could go on...but I guess that's a start...LoL.


meh I'm not interested in muscular men, actually looks don't really matter in the long run.. it's what's on the inside that counts.. cliche i know but I love a guy with a great personality and good ethics! though dark hair and eyes won't hurt lol

For CFS i was going to reccomend shamanic healing..

[Kapitan_Prien]

LoL...Well I can't say my hair is 'dark', nor my eyes...although both are brown. *laughs*

Actually with regards to the CFS - that's kind of what I am doing in my own peculiar sort of way. I found the essences, essential oils, homeopathy, and crystal therapy the most helpful. I do use Ashwagandha to help me sleep better, take Dandelion for detox, and a little Eleuthero/Siberian Ginseng here and there...but for me it is definitely due to stress (mental-emotional-spiritual). I think the soul exchange has been a 'catalyst' in helping it heal...despite the first few years being quite rough.

[SeaZen]

An independent, confident woman who is a tigress in the bedroom. One whose eyes are on fire with desire and a smile that is as sexually hungry as it is seductive. One who will ravish you to the point of you wanting to sensually and erotically worship her godess like femininity with all of your faculties and being for hours on end until we both explode in a mutual orgasmic frenzy of oneness.

Of course, I wouldnt expect her to be like this all the time but, but its definitely a quality I find attractive and would like to see a woman express once in a while to keep things interesting and lively! There are, of course, many other qualities I am attracted to in a women as I am not one dimensional, but for some reason this one happen to come to mind. :D

P.S. I hope this passes the forum rules as I didnt mention any x rated graphic body parts in my illustration

[Silver]

http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-monocle.gif


Cigarette?

[Kapitan_Prien]

LoL SeaZen.

I wouldn't mind that myself if it weren't for my CFS. I'm more of the nurturing type - I'd by far prefer a massage and a tub soak together. *smile*

To keep things interesting...shopping together at an antique store! That's fun!

[SeaZen]

http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-monocle.gif


Cigarette?

I dont think I would have the energy to stand up, let alone reach for a cigarette after that one! :wink: :D

[SeaZen]

LoL SeaZen.

I wouldn't mind that myself if it weren't for my CFS.

LOL! I think I can safely say that all of us guys would love that once in a while Kap!


I'm more of the nurturing type - I'd by far prefer a massage and a tub soak together. *smile*


The hot tub and massage thing is also a great experience Kap! I think the key is a variety of experiences with each partner exploring and experiencing different roles and feelings each time

[LightFilledHeart]

It's been very interesting reading what men want... educational in more ways than one! How do you feel about broadening this thread to include what women want as well? Make it a little more balanced and get both sides of the coin? I know what I want in a man, but I'd be curious to know what other women seek in theirs :D

[SeaZen]

It's been very interesting reading what men want... educational in more ways than one! How do you feel about broadening this thread to include what women want as well? Make it a little more balanced and get both sides of the coin? I know what I want in a man, but I'd be curious to know what other women seek in theirs :D

A great idea, however, why not start a separate thread on what women want? I mean, we do have the space for it and this way we (us guys) can focus exclusively on what our lovely, sensual, sexy godessess desire! :D

Maybe later, we can put it all together in a super thread of ectastic joy and reconciliation! :smile:

[Kapitan_Prien]

I agree with SeaZen - it should be in a thread of it's own. *smile*

[White Wolf]

Gentlemen,

I realise that none of you can answer on behalf of every man any more than I can answer on behalf of every woman ... but here goes, anyway. :confused:

John said [paraphrasing] that all men want to be loved unconditionally, and SeaZen indicated that men don’t mind being seduced occasionally... :wink:

So here are my questions.


1. How is a woman supposed to respond when a man asks her repeatedly if she is in love with him, and then seems annoyed and disbelieving when she finally admits that yes, she is in love with him?
2. How is a woman supposed to respond to a man who is clearly [physically] attracted to her, when she attempts to seduce him and yet at a certain point, he rejects her?

Any insight would be very deeply appreciated, because I’m at the point of waving a white flag and walking away before I get hurt any more. :icon_frown:


White Wolf.

[SeaZen]

Gentlemen,

I realise that none of you can answer on behalf of every man any more than I can answer on behalf of every woman ... but here goes, anyway. :confused:

John said [paraphrasing] that all men want to be loved unconditionally, and SeaZen indicated that men don’t mind being seduced occasionally... :wink:

So here are my questions.


1. How is a woman supposed to respond when a man asks her repeatedly if she is in love with him, and then seems annoyed and disbelieving when she finally admits that yes, she is in love with him?
2. How is a woman supposed to respond to a man who is clearly [physically] attracted to her, when she attempts to seduce him and yet at a certain point, he rejects her?

Any insight would be very deeply appreciated, because I’m at the point of waving a white flag and walking away before I get hurt any more. :icon_frown:


White Wolf.

Hello White Wolf!

Actually, I like being seduced more than occasionally, I just said that to ease you women into the idea :wink: . I cant answer the first question as I dont behave in that manner and cannot understand why a guy would act that way so I will leave it to someone else. I will however try to tackle the second one.

Im not sure I understand the context of your second question, but I will assume that this is a person you are trying to meet and/or recently met and are trying to have a relationship with. In other words, this is not a boyfriend you are already having sex with as that was the context of my earlier response though I also do love getting seduced as you described. BTW, this is the question posed in most womens magazines as well so you are not alone in your confusion about this. Let me give you my take on what is happening.

First of all, let me explain to you the nature of guys. We are visually and sexually stimulated when we first see a desirable woman. In other words our first thought and impulse when we first see a woman we desire is "wow, it would be great to have sex with her!". So we go with it that impulse and chat her up.

As the evening moves forward we come down to earth from our base impulse and realize, hey, this is about more than just the sex, she wants a relationship as well so we then try to determine if this is someone we want for more than just sex i.e. a relationship. There are 2 possible answers to this

1) "Yes we would love to have sex with you but no we do not wish to pursue a relationship with you".
2) "Yes we would love to have sex with you AND pursue a relationship with you"

Number one is clearly a mixed signal that contributes to confusion. It looks as if you may fall into the first category with this particular individual White Wolf. If it is your intent to only have sex without the strings of a subsequent relationship with this guy, you should make this very verbally clear to him in which case Im sure he will respond positively.

Guys have thankfully evolved and we do not wish to act on our base sexual impulse with someone who clearly wants more just to drop them and move on after we had our taste of sugar and leave her devastated. That was how guys acted in the distant past thank God.

Do not let this discourage you from actively pursuing and seducing guys! Women reject us all the time for whatever reason at whatever stage in the seduction process and Im sure many of you have done some rejecting in the past. Its tough on us as well when we get rejected but we learned from an early age to bounce back and move forward. Im sure every guy remembers the extreme pain we felt when asking a girl to dance at age 14 at the school dance just to get rejected.

Godessess, welcome to our world! Its all part of the dance. Some may respond favorably at first and not want to follow through, some may follow through. Now you know what its like when the shoe is on the other foot:wink: . The trick is not to invest too much emotion in a guy you just met and to never ever judge yourself as unworthy if you get rejected.

[LightFilledHeart]

I have a girlfriend who plays by "The Rules". She insists it is the only way to "get a man"..! [Personally I'd rather not HAVE one if I can't attract him simply by being myself, primarily because I don't want to be someone I'm NOT for the rest of my life..!] I don't put much store in her opinions on this subject, but she did say something once that made me laugh and had a ring of truth to it. She said if you want a man to disappear from your life and never bother you again, don't tell him straight up to do so... that will only present a challenge, and he'll NEVER leave! The quickest way to get a man out of your life, according to her, is to say the following..."I want to marry you and have your children!" She says they will be out of there so fast they'll leave skid marks on your driveway!!! :wink: :rolleyes: :D

Of course I realize this adage does not apply to all men...I'm not so silly or shallow as to believe there are no men seeking love, marriage and family! But in the early part of a budding relationship, strong protestations of love from the woman DO seem to scare a man off.... even though they've been in hot pursuit and seeming to WANT them! Maybe she's right to a degree when she says from the male perspective it's all about the challenge. Remove that completely from the page prematurely and POOF! He'll be gone.

[I know you were asking your questions of men, White Wolf, so I hope you'll forgive me for jumping in with my two cents..! :hug3: ]

[Kapitan_Prien]

In relation to the first question - from my view, as a guy, I would have to say the annoyance would come from the answer taking so long. The disbelief would be related to that. Perhaps there is a certain 'directness' with most men. I realize that I'm the exception to the rule on many things - if a woman were attracted to me in all ways - I would want her to say so. This is because I don't like this 'emotional dilly-dallying'. When things are put out, it clears the air - and that's what I like. Then I know where she stands, and then I can give her an honest answer where I stand. I have emotions - but I'm not 'emotional'.

As for the second question - unfortunately I have had bad experiences with women (online) who would 'seduce' me and I would wind up getting really hurt. So - I don't really 'do' this seduction thing, and this is why I like things to be 'up front' and 'open'.

I do not wish to marry or to have kids either.

I'm no 'landsman' - I do not have the 'disposition' of a 'landsman'. I'm an 'old school' sailor. My frankness has often been a put off to many because I don't 'play the game' (which I think is stupid to begin with).

[Lostgirl]

My boyfriend is basically 'if she has a pretty smile thats all that matters'....i think theres more to it than that but thats what he likes.

Alot of you guys on here are saying how you like confident women but alot of guys ive come across are intimidated by myself. I am a strong, confident young lady. I know my self, im sure of myself and i have my own opions and am not afraid to express them. Im sure of myself in who i am and sexually and im not afraid to express either. However when some men meet me im sure they are intimidated or is that all part of it?!

You are all bvery confusing.

[LightFilledHeart]

I do not wish to marry or to have kids either.

I'm no 'landsman' - I do not have the 'disposition' of a 'landsman'. I'm an 'old school' sailor. My frankness has often been a put off to many because I don't 'play the game' (which I think is stupid to begin with).

It's good you don't play games. Women who want something other than what you can freely offer know to look for those things elsewhere, and no one gets hurt :D

[7luminaries]

A great idea, however, why not start a separate thread on what women want? I mean, we do have the space for it and this way we (us guys) can focus exclusively on what our lovely, sensual, sexy godessess desire! :D

Maybe later, we can put it all together in a super thread of ectastic joy and reconciliation! :smile:

LOL...SeaZen & Kapitan...I read your deepest wishes....LOL...Kapitan's sounds a bit easier to fulfill...I jest. In all seriousness...and I grant that I of course do not speak for every woman...I will tell you right now that for me...

The only way I can be these things...[you have to be the tigress...faking it is pretty cheesy]...is with the man I love, heart and soul. With anyone else 1) nothing is happening...not interested and 2) couldn't fake it if I wanted to, which I don't.

So, if you want a woman to be & do these things for you, LOL...IMO you need to be the other half of her soul. In which case she would go to the ends of the earth and be the tigress on at least a regular basis, and would be at least passionate & loving the rest of the time.

Cheers!
7L

[Kaere]

It's good you don't play games. Women who want something other than what you can freely offer know to look for those things elsewhere, and no one gets hurt :D

I agree. I don't understand about why people play games either, men and women alike. There's something there that they want but they don't want to commit to it and so they keep it in the background or something? A fail-safe, something to fall back on, to massage the ego? And that can be very hurtful. I don't know how to play whatever game it is that goes on. I've always spoken out and been honest about my feelings for a person - it's no reason to panic and run away either. Being honest in return is always appreciated.

Imagine how different the world would be if people actually communicated with each other, and it wasn't all down to "what does he mean? did she say that and mean this? was that a joke?" or putting our own voices to the words.

[Kapitan_Prien]

7Luminaries: Kapitan's sounds a bit easier to fulfill

Ah - that's just cause I'm an old geezer. (I'm physically 30 though)

Kaere: Imagine how different the world would be if people actually communicated with each other, and it wasn't all down to "what does he mean? did she say that and mean this? was that a joke?" or putting our own voices to the words.

Exactly!

[John32241]

Gentlemen,

I realise that none of you can answer on behalf of every man any more than I can answer on behalf of every woman ... but here goes, anyway. :confused:

John said [paraphrasing] that all men want to be loved unconditionally, and SeaZen indicated that men don’t mind being seduced occasionally... :wink:

So here are my questions.


1. How is a woman supposed to respond when a man asks her repeatedly if she is in love with him, and then seems annoyed and disbelieving when she finally admits that yes, she is in love with him?
2. How is a woman supposed to respond to a man who is clearly [physically] attracted to her, when she attempts to seduce him and yet at a certain point, he rejects her?

Any insight would be very deeply appreciated, because I’m at the point of waving a white flag and walking away before I get hurt any more. :icon_frown:


White Wolf.

Hello White Wolf,

You do ask some very good questions.

I am not sure that you can appreciate how much most men are afraid to place their trust in a woman. Naturally most guys will go to their grave in denial. Yet in my view, the evidence says otherwise.

Now the question is, how does a girl deal with such a thing, if it is true naturally. So here are a few things to consider, as I see it.

When a girl is angry with a guy, she does need to express her degree of her frustration without frightening him. Easier said than done for sure, for it does require some composure.

For question (1), the thought that comes to the guy is why? His logical mind will create all kinds of reasons that can trouble him quite a bit. So if you reach a point where you speak of your love for a guy, explain to him authentically those things about him that touch you the most.

For question (2), understand how question one will influence his feelings. What is the ladies motivation or reason for saying that She Loves him? Why does he have such a hard time with trust? For every guy, there is a list of reasons that all go back to his fears and concerns about a woman's true motivations.

It is not really unconditional love that a guy requires. It is an open and honest exchange of authentic thoughts and feelings. Something that does not happen all that often in our culture at this time, as I see it naturally.

There are some deep insights in that material that I posted from Kryon. If you are inclined to ignore them, then there is little that I can say that would help anyone.

John

[Kapitan_Prien]

John: It is an open and honest exchange of authentic thoughts and feelings.

....Exactly!:D

[John32241]

My boyfriend is basically 'if she has a pretty smile thats all that matters'....i think theres more to it than that but thats what he likes.

Alot of you guys on here are saying how you like confident women but alot of guys ive come across are intimidated by myself. I am a strong, confident young lady. I know my self, im sure of myself and i have my own opions and am not afraid to express them. Im sure of myself in who i am and sexually and im not afraid to express either. However when some men meet me im sure they are intimidated or is that all part of it?!

You are all bvery confusing.

On some days I have been intimidated by more than one woman. That is OK with me, it goes with the territory.

There is one thing that I have discovered about life, and that is that our opinions are biased. We are all conditioned to think and feel in particular ways. Being a strong confident young lady is good. Knowing yourself is essential. That provides a good base for expanding you views of reality.

It is funny but the first thing that I noticed about you was your screen name. Could it be that you are wise enough to learn more about life?

Sincerely,
John

[SeaZen]

She said if you want a man to disappear from your life and never bother you again, don't tell him straight up to do so... that will only present a challenge, and he'll NEVER leave! The quickest way to get a man out of your life, according to her, is to say the following..."I want to marry you and have your children!" She says they will be out of there so fast they'll leave skid marks on your driveway!!! :wink: :rolleyes: :D

...But in the early part of a budding relationship, strong protestations of love from the woman DO seem to scare a man off.... even though they've been in hot pursuit and seeming to WANT them! :hug3: ]Maybe she's right to a degree when she says from the male perspective it's all about the challenge.

ROFL!! :D Your friend is right about that and has a great trick up her sleeve to get rid of guys she is not interested in. However, you are confusing strong protestations of love with strong requests of committment. BIG DIFFERENCE! Therefore the challenge analogy doesn't really hold water though Im sure it is about the challenge for some guys.

[SeaZen]

Alot of you guys on here are saying how you like confident women but alot of guys ive come across are intimidated by myself. I am a strong, confident young lady. I know my self, im sure of myself and i have my own opions and am not afraid to express them. Im sure of myself in who i am and sexually and im not afraid to express either. However when some men meet me im sure they are intimidated or is that all part of it?!

You are all bvery confusing.

Whats your phone number lost girl? Lets talk! Just kidding! :smile:

You make some valid points. There will always be some guys out there who like the "old fashioned" submissive, cocquettish girl, and there are some meek, shy guys who may be genuinely intimidated but rest assured, there are alot of evolved guys out there who would jump at the chance to meet a girl like you! As far as your personality and essence is concerned, stay as you are lost girl (you dont sound lost to me at all). However, when it comes to the bedroom, you may wish to experiment with all the variety of feelings that are available to us e.g. making tender sweet love, being the ravisher or the ravishee etc. etc.

[SeaZen]

LOL...SeaZen & Kapitan...I read your deepest wishes....LOL...Kapitan's sounds a bit easier to fulfill...I jest. In all seriousness...and I grant that I of course do not speak for every woman...I will tell you right now that for me...

The only way I can be these things...[you have to be the tigress...faking it is pretty cheesy]...is with the man I love, heart and soul. With anyone else 1) nothing is happening...not interested and 2) couldn't fake it if I wanted to, which I don't.

So, if you want a woman to be & do these things for you, LOL...IMO you need to be the other half of her soul. In which case she would go to the ends of the earth and be the tigress on at least a regular basis, and would be at least passionate & loving the rest of the time.

Cheers!
7L

7L you hit the nail on the head! Thank you very much for your response. I agree with you and believe every word you said wholeheartedly about the tigress dynamic. We need to have these types of discussions.

The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually. It doesnt have to always be intercourse. It can be as simple as a loving embrace and massage with your hand on a certain body part as you tell us how much you love make us happy this way etc. etc.

Women on the other hand find it very fullfilling and important for guys to reach out and connect, love and meld with a womans soul as you describe and I dont think guys have a problem with this or object to it. On the contrary, us guys find this very personally satisying and soulfully fullfilling to please and connect with a woman in this way. But ladies, dont forget to reach out to us the way we prefer!:wink:

The ying and the yang! You gotta love it!

I said something similar to this before on another thread that became controversial in the past, but if men were to reach out and connect to a womans soul as you describe and a woman were to reach out and appeal to a mans physical sexuality the so called "battle of sexes" would be thankfully over. This is especially important in the beginning of a relationship to establish a good base of mutual fullfillment and enlightenment. We would be so busy pleasing one another that we wouldnt be able to think of anything else! Now wouldnt that be absolute bliss! :D

Of course women also like to be reached out to sexually and men like to also be reached out to soulfully but I think its safe to say that if we primarily appealed to each other as the way I illustrated above things would be hot!

Now back to the tigress thing, the only other instances I can picture a tigress type of situation other than the one you described above is a rock star - groupie dynamic or a something between 18-20 year olds whose hormones, longing, desire and sense of experimentation are raging.

[White Wolf]

Hello White Wolf!

Actually, I like being seduced more than occasionally, I just said that to ease you women into the idea :wink: . I cant answer the first question as I dont behave in that manner and cannot understand why a guy would act that way so I will leave it to someone else. I will however try to tackle the second one.

Im not sure I understand the context of your second question, but I will assume that this is a person you are trying to meet and/or recently met and are trying to have a relationship with. In other words, this is not a boyfriend you are already having sex with as that was the context of my earlier response though I also do love getting seduced as you described. BTW, this is the question posed in most womens magazines as well so you are not alone in your confusion about this. Let me give you my take on what is happening.

First of all, let me explain to you the nature of guys. We are visually and sexually stimulated when we first see a desirable woman. In other words our first thought and impulse when we first see a woman we desire is "wow, it would be great to have sex with her!". So we go with it that impulse and chat her up.

As the evening moves forward we come down to earth from our base impulse and realize, hey, this is about more than just the sex, she wants a relationship as well so we then try to determine if this is someone we want for more than just sex i.e. a relationship. There are 2 possible answers to this

1) "Yes we would love to have sex with you but no we do not wish to pursue a relationship with you".
2) "Yes we would love to have sex with you AND pursue a relationship with you"

Number one is clearly a mixed signal that contributes to confusion. It looks as if you may fall into the first category with this particular individual White Wolf. If it is your intent to only have sex without the strings of a subsequent relationship with this guy, you should make this very verbally clear to him in which case Im sure he will respond positively.

Guys have thankfully evolved and we do not wish to act on our base sexual impulse with someone who clearly wants more just to drop them and move on after we had our taste of sugar and leave her devastated. That was how guys acted in the distant past thank God.

Do not let this discourage you from actively pursuing and seducing guys! Women reject us all the time for whatever reason at whatever stage in the seduction process and Im sure many of you have done some rejecting in the past. Its tough on us as well when we get rejected but we learned from an early age to bounce back and move forward. Im sure every guy remembers the extreme pain we felt when asking a girl to dance at age 14 at the school dance just to get rejected.

Godessess, welcome to our world! Its all part of the dance. Some may respond favorably at first and not want to follow through, some may follow through. Now you know what its like when the shoe is on the other foot:wink: . The trick is not to invest too much emotion in a guy you just met and to never ever judge yourself as unworthy if you get rejected.
Hello SeaZen,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response. Now I just have to work out how to answer without getting moderated for a X-rated post. LOL

The relationship - for want of a better word - is new, from a certain perspective. (We're not lovers yet ... unless extremely, um, hot emails and phone calls count.)

Re: seduction. I'm an extremely "affectionate" woman, so within a committed relationship, I enjoy dressing up in lingerie and I do tend to seduce my man quite frequently. :wink: (My ex never once complained about that side of my personality.) TMI? Sorry. :redface: However, I have never had the confidence to pursue a man...

Without revealing too much of my friend's private business, he went through a really ugly divorce, then quickly fell into another relationship with a woman who didn't understand the concept of monogamy. :icon_frown: Then he met me - and I am ridiculously faithful. (In practical terms, that means that I won't date anyone else even though my friend and I are not actually lovers, yet.) We've both been hurt badly before and have so many walls around ourselves it's pathetic.

BTW, SeaZen, the topic of a one-night-romance was raised a few months ago, and he said he definitely didn't want that with me - hence my confusion. He told me he loves me, and he's shown me he wants me, and frankly I can be not so nice at times, yet he keeps hanging in there ... so I'm just trying to understand how to get to the next "level".

White Wolf



Edited by SF Staff

[White Wolf]

I have a girlfriend who plays by "The Rules". She insists it is the only way to "get a man"..! [Personally I'd rather not HAVE one if I can't attract him simply by being myself, primarily because I don't want to be someone I'm NOT for the rest of my life..!] I don't put much store in her opinions on this subject, but she did say something once that made me laugh and had a ring of truth to it. She said if you want a man to disappear from your life and never bother you again, don't tell him straight up to do so... that will only present a challenge, and he'll NEVER leave! The quickest way to get a man out of your life, according to her, is to say the following..."I want to marry you and have your children!" She says they will be out of there so fast they'll leave skid marks on your driveway!!! :wink: :rolleyes: :D

Of course I realize this adage does not apply to all men...I'm not so silly or shallow as to believe there are no men seeking love, marriage and family! But in the early part of a budding relationship, strong protestations of love from the woman DO seem to scare a man off.... even though they've been in hot pursuit and seeming to WANT them! Maybe she's right to a degree when she says from the male perspective it's all about the challenge. Remove that completely from the page prematurely and POOF! He'll be gone.

[I know you were asking your questions of men, White Wolf, so I hope you'll forgive me for jumping in with my two cents..! :hug3: ]
LightFilledHeart :hug2:

I appreciate anyone's opinion. Even if I don't agree with it, I'll still think it through.

I absolutely LOATHE those rules / games / whatever some women play. (Maybe I'm lazy, or inept at being a woman, or something...) Generally, I attract alpha-male types [make of that what you will] so they do the chasing anyway. That's why this one-step-forward-one-step-back thing is so confusing.

BTW, I mentioned marriage to him - thinking he'd head for the hills and save me from the horrible break-up process - but he didn't budge an inch.

I've never met anyone quite like him before - in both a positive and negative sense. In so many ways, he's amazing, warm, adorable, you get the idea - but when he's hurt, he clams up more than I do. (If isolation was an Olympic sport, I'd win gold for Australia...)

White Wolf

[White Wolf]

In relation to the first question - from my view, as a guy, I would have to say the annoyance would come from the answer taking so long. The disbelief would be related to that. Perhaps there is a certain 'directness' with most men. I realize that I'm the exception to the rule on many things - if a woman were attracted to me in all ways - I would want her to say so. This is because I don't like this 'emotional dilly-dallying'. When things are put out, it clears the air - and that's what I like. Then I know where she stands, and then I can give her an honest answer where I stand. I have emotions - but I'm not 'emotional'.

As for the second question - unfortunately I have had bad experiences with women (online) who would 'seduce' me and I would wind up getting really hurt. So - I don't really 'do' this seduction thing, and this is why I like things to be 'up front' and 'open'.

I do not wish to marry or to have kids either.

I'm no 'landsman' - I do not have the 'disposition' of a 'landsman'. I'm an 'old school' sailor. My frankness has often been a put off to many because I don't 'play the game' (which I think is stupid to begin with).

Kapitan_Prien,

Thank you for your response. :smile:

The first time he asked me if I was in love with him, I actually wasn't, so I evaded the question. The second time he asked, I evaded, too. By the third time, I had fallen for him - but I've never been the first one to speak of love in a relationship before, so I didn't handle it well.

White Wolf

[White Wolf]

Hello White Wolf,

You do ask some very good questions.

I am not sure that you can appreciate how much most men are afraid to place their trust in a woman. Naturally most guys will go to their grave in denial. Yet in my view, the evidence says otherwise.

Now the question is, how does a girl deal with such a thing, if it is true naturally. So here are a few things to consider, as I see it.

When a girl is angry with a guy, she does need to express her degree of her frustration without frightening him. Easier said than done for sure, for it does require some composure.

For question (1), the thought that comes to the guy is why? His logical mind will create all kinds of reasons that can trouble him quite a bit. So if you reach a point where you speak of your love for a guy, explain to him authentically those things about him that touch you the most.

For question (2), understand how question one will influence his feelings. What is the ladies motivation or reason for saying that She Loves him? Why does he have such a hard time with trust? For every guy, there is a list of reasons that all go back to his fears and concerns about a woman's true motivations.

It is not really unconditional love that a guy requires. It is an open and honest exchange of authentic thoughts and feelings. Something that does not happen all that often in our culture at this time, as I see it naturally.

There are some deep insights in that material that I posted from Kryon. If you are inclined to ignore them, then there is little that I can say that would help anyone.

John

Hello John,

Thanks for responding, and I apologise for paraphrasing your words about love. :redface:

As I mentioned in a previous response, my man has been hurt badly in two successive relationships, and I think I'm getting the fallout from that. :icon_frown: And I did try to tell him what it is about him that touches me so deeply, and he said they were the most beautiful words he'd ever read. (I'm a writer by trade, so I express myself better that way than by verbalizing my thoughts.)

White Wolf

[Kapitan_Prien]

You're Welcome White Wolf *smile*

[SeaZen]

Hello SeaZen,
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response. Now I just have to work out how to answer without getting moderated for a X-rated post. LOL

Re: seduction. I'm an extremely "affectionate" woman, so within a committed relationship, I enjoy dressing up in lingerie and I do tend to seduce my man quite frequently. :wink: (My ex never once complained about that side of my personality.) TMI? Sorry. :redface: However, I have never had the confidence to pursue a man...


I am very happy to hear how affectionate and seductive you are and I hope that whatever man you are with appeals to and satisfies your innermost soulful needs and desires. :smile:

TMI?? Are you kidding me? Dont worry about it WW! We need to be honest and open about these things just like anything else. It looks like you have been edited anyway which I cant understand because how will we grow and evolve sexually if we cant talk about it. I can understand editing vivid sexual storytelling but when discussing our questions and concerns thats a whole other matter. Anyway thats the subject of another post. I think I have enough to work with here to answer you though.


The relationship - for want of a better word - is new, from a certain perspective. (We're not lovers yet ... unless extremely, um, hot emails and phone calls count.)

Without revealing too much of my friend's private business, he went through a really ugly divorce, then quickly fell into another relationship with a woman who didn't understand the concept of monogamy. :icon_frown: Then he met me - and I am ridiculously faithful. (In practical terms, that means that I won't date anyone else even though my friend and I are not actually lovers, yet.) We've both been hurt badly before and have so many walls around ourselves it's pathetic.

BTW, SeaZen, the topic of a one-night-romance was raised a few months ago, and he said he definitely didn't want that with me - hence my confusion. He told me he loves me, and he's shown me he wants me, and frankly I can be not so nice at times, yet he keeps hanging in there ... so I'm just trying to understand how to get to the next "level".
White Wolf
Edited by SF Staff


From what I just read it sounds like your male friend has been through some very, very rough relationship times. When this happens to a guy the last thing he wants is to enter another relationship right away. He needs time to heal and clear himself of the negativity of the past relationships before starting a new relationship.

Now, given that, we still have that strong male sex drive we need to deal with which puts us between a rock and hard place (pun intended). How do we deal with our sex drive when we dont want to enter a relationship quite yet? Quite the dilemna! Your male friend is obviously dealing with it via the hot emails and phone calls with you.

What throws a monkey wrench into all of this is the one night romance discussion. You would think that he would jump at the chance for this but he doesnt. There are several possibilities here:

1) If he follows through with the one night romance, he may not trust himself and would want to do so again and again which would constitute starting a relationship which is something he is not ready for. Sex is a very powerful magnet for guys.

2) He may want to wait until the time is right and he is clear of the negativity of the past relationships so that he can start fresh and make that first moment with you special and enduring.

3) all of the above (I think its all of the above)

As far as taking it to the next level, I would mention to him that you understand he is healing and clearing himself of the past negative relationships and that he needs time for that and ask him how long will he need to heal and if there is anything you can do to help. Of course ease this into the conversation and say this as diplomatically and undemanding as possible. This should start a discussion that should answer your questions. I hope this helps WW! Let me know if you have any more questions or concerns.

I wish you well dear! Hang in there! :hug:

SeaZen

[White Wolf]

I am very happy to hear how affectionate and seductive you are and I hope that whatever man you are with appeals to and satisfies your innermost soulful needs and desires. :smile:

TMI?? Are you kidding me? Dont worry about it WW! We need to be honest and open about these things just like anything else. It looks like you have been edited anyway which I cant understand because how will we grow and evolve sexually if we cant talk about it. I can understand editing vivid sexual storytelling but when discussing our questions and concerns thats a whole other matter. Anyway thats the subject of another post. I think I have enough to work with here to answer you though.

SeaZen, I believe the edit was to remove a word which I thought was permissible to use, but apparently not. (Sorry mods, no offense intended. :redface: )

As for the TMI issue, there are some rather nasty words that get thrown around re: women who are sexually confident, and I'm new to this forum and trying to make a decent impression.

From what I just read it sounds like your male friend has been through some very, very rough relationship times. When this happens to a guy the last thing he wants is to enter another relationship right away. He needs time to heal and clear himself of the negativity of the past relationships before starting a new relationship.

Now, given that, we still have that strong male sex drive we need to deal with which puts us between a rock and hard place (pun intended). How do we deal with our sex drive when we dont want to enter a relationship quite yet? Quite the dilemna! Your male friend is obviously dealing with it via the hot emails and phone calls with you.

What throws a monkey wrench into all of this is the one night romance discussion. You would think that he would jump at the chance for this but he doesnt. There are several possibilities here:

1) If he follows through with the one night romance, he may not trust himself and would want to do so again and again which would constitute starting a relationship which is something he is not ready for. Sex is a very powerful magnet for guys.

2) He may want to wait until the time is right and he is clear of the negativity of the past relationships so that he can start fresh and make that first moment with you special and enduring.

3) all of the above (I think its all of the above)

As far as taking it to the next level, I would mention to him that you understand he is healing and clearing himself of the past negative relationships and that he needs time for that and ask him how long will he need to heal and if there is anything you can do to help. Of course ease this into the conversation and say this as diplomatically and undemanding as possible. This should start a discussion that should answer your questions. I hope this helps WW! Let me know if you have any more questions or concerns.

I wish you well dear! Hang in there! :hug:

SeaZen

Thank you, SeaZen. It helps a lot to get a man's perspective. I cherish the wisdom of my women friends, too, but guys have "inside info", so to speak. :D

White Wolf

[Lostgirl]

Whats your phone number lost girl? Lets talk! Just kidding! :smile:

You make some valid points. There will always be some guys out there who like the "old fashioned" submissive, cocquettish girl, and there are some meek, shy guys who may be genuinely intimidated but rest assured, there are alot of evolved guys out there who would jump at the chance to meet a girl like you! As far as your personality and essence is concerned, stay as you are lost girl (you dont sound lost to me at all). However, when it comes to the bedroom, you may wish to experiment with all the variety of feelings that are available to us e.g. making tender sweet love, being the ravisher or the ravishee etc. etc.

:D Brilliant. You made me chuckle. I have just never been brought up to be submissive etc. I was very shy as a child and then was bullied throughout my school life and i finally had enough of it and came out of my shell :) I like who i am now.
As for the bedroom, i want to put it delicately but i dont know how.......i have no problem "experimenting" as you put it in any way.......(i feel the conversation tone has now slipped down hill here)......
Thank you for making me smile :hug3:

[SeaZen]

As for the TMI issue, there are some rather nasty words that get thrown around re: women who are sexually confident

You know, that is a really sad state of affairs when that happens and its guys who throw around those comments. Those idiots dont realize they are shooting themselves (and the rest of us) in the foot when they do that. I just really hope those women dont get discouraged when they hear that and know that there are guys out there who absolutely adore them for the divine godesses that they have become! :D


Thank you, SeaZen. It helps a lot to get a man's perspective. I cherish the wisdom of my women friends, too, but guys have "inside info", so to speak. :D

White Wolf


You are correct! We do have the inside info and perspective you seek! Understanding what is really going on in a relationship situation helps tremendously in being able to accept it and deal with it and to move forward. Its the unknown that causes stress and disharmony. Im very happy to be able to help in this regard White Wolf. Im sure you would do the same if I was experiencing some kind of unknown with a woman I was dating and I needed some "inside info".:wink:

Thats what were here for! :D

SeaZen

[SeaZen]

:D Brilliant. You made me chuckle. I have just never been brought up to be submissive etc. I was very shy as a child and then was bullied throughout my school life and i finally had enough of it and came out of my shell :) I like who i am now.


I like who you are now too lostgirl! Dont ever change except for an even more evolved version of who you are now. You may find yourself at parties or whatever where you will be in the company of un-evolved cro-magnon testosterone fueled guys testing you. Always stand your ground with the inner self confidence, strength and humor within you that you so wonderfully express!


As for the bedroom, i want to put it delicately but i dont know how.......i have no problem "experimenting" as you put it in any way.......(i feel the conversation tone has now slipped down hill here)......


That is great! Actually, I never meant that comment I made to be turned into a specific "nuts and bolts" sexual discussion between us. It was merely a suggestion for you to ponder the possibilities if you havent already, but I see that you already have which is great! I dont think you realize how truly far along you are on the evolutionary scale of spirituality and sexuality at such a young age! Realize it, feel it, experience it, enjoy it! It only gets better! :smile:


Thank you for making me smile :hug3:


Thank you lostgirl! Knowing that I spread some joy makes me feel real good!
:hug3:

[Mountain-Goat]

First of all, let me explain to you the nature of guys.
Speak for yourself SeaZen. The description below does not represent me in the slightest.
If I am attracted to a woman I desire to know her before the intimacy of sex.
I cannot have sex with a stranger.
We are visually and sexually stimulated when we first see a desirable woman. In other words our first thought and impulse when we first see a woman we desire is "wow, it would be great to have sex with her!". So we go with it that impulse and chat her up.

As the evening moves forward we come down to earth from our base impulse and realize, hey, this is about more than just the sex, she wants a relationship as well so we then try to determine if this is someone we want for more than just sex i.e. a relationship. There are 2 possible answers to this

1) "Yes we would love to have sex with you but no we do not wish to pursue a relationship with you".
2) "Yes we would love to have sex with you AND pursue a relationship with you"

Number one is clearly a mixed signal that contributes to confusion. It looks as if you may fall into the first category with this particular individual White Wolf. If it is your intent to only have sex without the strings of a subsequent relationship with this guy, you should make this very verbally clear to him in which case Im sure he will respond positively.

Guys have thankfully evolved and we do not wish to act on our base sexual impulse with someone who clearly wants more just to drop them and move on after we had our taste of sugar and leave her devastated. That was how guys acted in the distant past thank God.

Yet many guys still behave this way.

[Mountain-Goat]

The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually. Speak for yourself.
But ladies, dont forget to reach out to us the way we prefer!:wink: Not "we", you.

Of course women also like to be reached out to sexually and men like to also be reached out to soulfully but I think its safe to say that if we primarily appealed to each other as the way I illustrated above things would be hot!
It may be safe to say but that don't mean it's right for all.

[Kapitan_Prien]

A woman who is a bit traditional, very feminine (in a vintage way! - likes dresses, lace, long styled hair, and wears make up that highlights her natural beauty).

Below are some photos to kind of demonstrate:

They are 1930s - 40s period styles

http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff357/Prien_18837/vintagedress2.jpg

http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff357/Prien_18837/vintagedress1.jpg

[Kapitan_Prien]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaZen
The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually.

Alternate Carpark: Speak for yourself.
Quote:
But ladies, dont forget to reach out to us the way we prefer!:wink:
Not "we", you.

Quote:
Of course women also like to be reached out to sexually and men like to also be reached out to soulfully but I think its safe to say that if we primarily appealed to each other as the way I illustrated above things would be hot!

It may be safe to say but that don't mean it's right for all.

Thank You Alternate Carpark.:smile:

I'm not that into all this sex stuff due to my health and because there's more to life than just sex, sex, and more sex.

[Mountain-Goat]

Thank You Alternate Carpark.:smile:

I'm not that into all this sex stuff due to my health and because there's more to life than just sex, sex, and more sex. Hey, no probs KP.
Though I enjoy sex thoroughly, I do not regard it as the first port of call in a relationship.

Sex, to me, is the icing on a cake that has been created out of getting to know one another first.
And as an example. My last relationship, we got to know each other for over a year before any physical intimacy.
Close friends first, then close physically.

In regards to appearance. I too am like you.
I am not impressed by girls dressing sexually.
If all you think you got to show are your jellies, then you're selling yourself short big time.
This trend of sexy is the new beautiful, I so hope it ends.

[Kapitan_Prien]

I feel the same way you do AC...with regards to both sex and then dressing in a sexual manner. I prefer elegant over sexual.

I guess I'm just an old geezer for being 30 *laughs*...but, I think it's just because I come from a different time.

[DoctorStrange]

I love a woman's beauty inside and outside.

[SeaZen]

Speak for yourself SeaZen. The description below does not represent me in the slightest.


You are correct AC, I shouldnt have said "we", I should have said most or many. Scientific studies have shown that most (not all) men are visually stimulated.


If I am attracted to a woman I desire to know her before the intimacy of sex.
I cannot have sex with a stranger.


So do I AC. Besides, I dont see anywhere in my post where I said that men can or prefer to have sex without getting to know the person. I was merely addressing potential. Many guys (and women) assess sexual potential visually before proceeding with the get to know you phase.

Even apparently you AC. You stated if you are attracted to a woman you desire, you want to get to know her first i.e. attraction comes before getting to know her. Correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to imply some kind of sexual/visual assessment on your part.

[SeaZen]

Speak for yourself.


Why? I didnt say "we" in that first quote, I said "most" and studies have shown that most men like loving communication to be sexual. Not exclusively sexual mind you, or at the expense of verbal and emotional loving communication, but sexual nevertheless. After all, a commonly used word for sex is "make love".


Not "we", you.


I stand corrected, thanks


It may be safe to say but that don't mean it's right for all


I dont see where I said that, but your comment is nevertheless correct.

[Kapitan_Prien]

I tend to find a woman's mind sexy if she's down to earth, intelligent, nurturing, caring, 'warm', etc. and this means more to me than her looks. I've come across women who are dressed all vintage style and such...live the retro life and all...but who turn out to be the most shallow creatures I've ever seen.

[White Wolf]

You know, that is a really sad state of affairs when that happens and its guys who throw around those comments. Those idiots dont realize they are shooting themselves (and the rest of us) in the foot when they do that. I just really hope those women dont get discouraged when they hear that and know that there are guys out there who absolutely adore them for the divine godesses that they have become! :D
Speaking for myself only - as I have women friends who are confident enough to pursue a man from the start - I only come out of my shell when I'm in a trusting relationship. Then it's on for young and old. :wink:

You are correct! We do have the inside info and perspective you seek! Understanding what is really going on in a relationship situation helps tremendously in being able to accept it and deal with it and to move forward. Its the unknown that causes stress and disharmony. Im very happy to be able to help in this regard White Wolf. Im sure you would do the same if I was experiencing some kind of unknown with a woman I was dating and I needed some "inside info".:wink:

Thats what were here for! :D

SeaZen
I'd certainly try, SeaZen ... but I fear it would take a much wiser woman than me to explain the inner workings of a woman's mind to a man. :smile:

White Wolf

[Roselove]

I tend to find a woman's mind sexy if she's down to earth, intelligent, nurturing, caring, 'warm', etc. and this means more to me than her looks. I've come across women who are dressed all vintage style and such...live the retro life and all...but who turn out to be the most shallow creatures I've ever seen.


how sweet! agreed looks don't last forever, but intelligence, personality, character lasts forever.. I wish more men placed value on those things.

[Mountain-Goat]

I feel the same way you do AC...with regards to both sex and then dressing in a sexual manner. I prefer elegant over sexual.

I guess I'm just an old geezer for being 30 *laughs*...but, I think it's just because I come from a different time.
~laughs~ It's definately not an age thing.
I've been thinking about it since posting in these threads and I come up with two ideas so far.
1: Intimacy is a private thing.
2: Dressing sexual, as I interpet it, is saying, "Hey, check me out, wanna have sex with me."
It bypasses relationship and it's all about sex.
Of course I have no idea why a particular female chooses to dress sexually.
And I'm sure I'd get a slap in the face if I enquired.
I'm sure many females growing up in this time don't see they are saying "have sex with me " by the clothes they wear.
To them that style is the current beautiful.
Ah, but when you switch 'beautiful' to 'attractive', then the concept chances.

To be beautiful is simply to radiate beauty, for the enjoyment of self...and others.
However, to be attractive denotes doing something to attract something.
The effort is specifically to attract a mate.
Then, dressing sexually comes across to me as, "hey wanna have sex with me", as an attractor and not as an actual invite for sex.

If one feels or knows one is already beautiful, hence attractive, then no need to show skin.
On the other side of the equation though is the male(not all)...engrossed in money, power, sport, WOW, online FPS, playstation, Xbox, TV, Jacka$$ with their mates, Star Trek conventions, beer, Porn, on and on and on, so female has to get male's attention somehow.

[Mountain-Goat]

You are correct AC, I shouldnt have said "we", I should have said most or many. Yes and thankyou SeaZen for not having a fit about it.
"we", and "us", these generalisations are in far too common usage without considering the erroneous nature of it's claims.

This claim is what got my goat.
First of all, let me explain to you the nature of guys. But many rely on these to base their beliefs on...
Scientific studies have shown that most (not all) men are visually stimulated. However, considering the number of guys on earth and the number of guys these studies actually test, any scientific minded person will state that all these types of studies are inconclusive because of the small number of participants.
They are a guide only, not conclusive fact.


So do I AC. Besides, I dont see anywhere in my post where I said that men can or prefer to have sex without getting to know the person. I was merely addressing potential. Many guys (and women) assess sexual potential visually before proceeding with the get to know you phase. You may be saying that now, but your original post says guys, not most guys.

Even apparently you AC. Yes, apparently.
You stated if you are attracted to a woman you desire, you want to get to know her first i.e. attraction comes before getting to know her.Not sure about your logic here.
I can be attracted without desire or even creating desire.
And yeah, one does not want to know another if one is not initially attracted.
It's the attraction that gets one's attention.
"Oh, there's something about this girl that I like."

Correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to imply some kind of sexual/visual assessment on your part. Yes, you are quite wrong in your assessment of me.
You seem to be under the impression that the only way a guy can be attracted to a chick is she has to evoke sexual stimulation in the guy.
You also seem to be under the impression that any visual attraction/stimulation a guy has for a chick is sexual.

Have you never looked at the beauty of a woman's body without thinking you want to have sex with her?
Have you not just simply basked in the beauty of her form?

As for guys being visually minded. I agree with you on this.
But there is far more beauty to observe beyond the limited range of the 5 senses.
And beyond those 5 senses, that's where the true beauty of a woman is found.
Same with the beauty of a man.

Yes, I can be attracted to the physical beauty of a female, but it's not sexual attraction, it's plain and simple attraction to beauty.
But beyond that physical beauty I simply look into her eyes and then I am immersed in unspeakable beauty,
according to the beauty that female sees in herself, which has got nothing to do with the physical realm, unless a person believes it does.

[Mountain-Goat]

It may be safe to say but that don't mean it's right for all

I dont see where I said that, but your comment is nevertheless correct.
~smiles~ It's right here in what I had already quoted.
Of course women also like to be reached out to sexually and men like to also be reached out to soulfully but I think its safe to say that if we primarily appealed to each other as the way I illustrated above things would be hot!

[arive nan]

Lets not forget that some men can become attracted to and even fall in love without knowing what a woman looks like, even if she's not talking about sex. I have seen this happen. When people show what is in their hearts and minds through words they can connect with each other and fall in love even if the subject of sex has not come up.

And by stimulated, they mean arousal. Generally seeing something that makes a someone think of sex will work better on guys than girls to get the equipment working in the bedroom.... Women are more mentally stimulated. Arousal will help encourage someone to start a relationship, sure. Which is why women use that to their advantage. But the study, as I recall, is talking specifically about arousal more than the 'I want to start a relationship' reaction.

[Mountain-Goat]

Lets not forget that some men can become attracted to and even fall in love without knowing what a woman looks like, even if she's not talking about sex. I have seen this happen. When people show what is in their hearts and minds through words they can connect with each other and fall in love even if the subject of sex has not come up. Exactly!

And by stimulated, they mean arousal. Generally seeing something that makes a someone think of sex will work better on guys than girls to get the equipment working in the bedroom.... Women are more mentally stimulated. Arousal will help encourage someone to start a relationship, sure. Which is why women use that to their advantage. But the study, as I recall, is talking specifically about arousal more than the 'I want to start a relationship' reaction. I totally agree with this, however, well ,not however, lest one forgets, visual stimulation(over use, dressing sexually) can also be a disadvantage.

[SeaZen]

~smiles~ It's right here in what I had already quoted.

Got it! After carefully re-reading it, it is my reference to "we" that implies that its right for all. You are quite the grammarian! :smile:

[SeaZen]

AC,
First of all, the quotes you pulled from me were from a discussion I was having with white wolf about a specific situation of hers. I never meant those quotes to be absolutes about the nature of male female relations though I did use words indicating as such. They were merely some generalizations I used for simplified helpful purposes for a specific situation. Secondly, many of the things I posted in these threads were for the sake of flirtatious levity and not indicative of how all men feel about women. Im much deeper than that and will post some of my thoughts on this later. Now to your responses


Yes and thankyou SeaZen for not having a fit about it.
"we", and "us", these generalisations are in far too common usage without considering the erroneous nature of it's claims.



I would usually say “your welcome” when someone thanks me but having a fit never crossed my mind so its not applicable. I always welcome corrective truth. Your candor and honesty is what I hold in high regard about you.


This claim is what got my goat.


Understandable


But many rely on these to base their beliefs on...


Indeed they do! But the physical sex drive is an undeniable fact that will manifest itself somehow someway. Hmmmm.... will it manifest itself when one is attracted to another or perhaps be the subtle unseen force behing the attraction?


However, considering the number of guys on earth and the number of guys these studies actually test, any scientific minded person will state that all these types of studies are inconclusive because of the small number of participants.
They are a guide only, not conclusive fact.


Yes, and culture needs to be taken into account as well. These studies I mentioned are western civilizational studies. But when you strip away all the ** religious and cultural walls, what you have left is desire. Most all of us have a physical sexual drive and desire. The desire to physically bond with another. If that desire is there, it will manifest in one who you find attractive.


You may be saying that now, but your original post says guys, not most guys.


You are wrong AC, here is the original post you quoted that I was referring to in my response
Originally Posted by SeaZen
The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually.

AC: Speak for yourself.

See the words in bold which I strongly suspect is "most guys" due to the spelling


Yes, apparently.
Not sure about your logic here.
I can be attracted without desire or even creating desire.
And yeah, one does not want to know another if one is not initially attracted.
It's the attraction that gets one's attention.
"Oh, there's something about this girl that I like."


When you say attracted without desire or creating desire, are you saying you have absolutely no feelings, thoughts or inspirational breathless moments of the possibilities of where this kind of relationship can lead at any time in the process? What is your attraction based on? Mere physical beauty alone?

Attraction is quite an all encompassing abstract concept. I have no doubt that one can find a woman intellectually or spiritually stimulating at first and then develop a romantic attraction later. You can be attracted to a woman for many reasons, not all of them romantic, but I am talking about romantic attraction AC. Do you mean to tell me you can be romantically attracted with no thought or feeling whatsoever in the back of your mind of any kind of physical intimacy? If so what’s the point?


You seem to be under the impression that the only way a guy can be attracted to a chick is she has to evoke sexual stimulation in the guy.
You also seem to be under the impression that any visual attraction/stimulation a guy has for a chick is sexual.


"Chick"??!! :smile: I haven’t used that expression since my teens/twenties! Nothing wrong with it mind you! Nice to hear it again but it feels kind of passe unnatural for me now.

Nevertheless, you are quite wrong in your assessment of me. It is a plethora of things that evoke attraction to a “chick” in me that I am romantically interested in. One of them is definitely a breathless feeling of desire and sexual attraction. It is not the only thing but it is definitely a part of the whole package. I do not separate beauty, sexuality, personality etc. when considering a romantic partner.


As for guys being visually minded. I agree with you on this.
But there is far more beauty to observe beyond the limited range of the 5 senses.
And beyond those 5 senses, that's where the true beauty of a woman is found.
Same with the beauty of a man.


I see the essence of love beyond the 5 senses. Again, to each his own.


Have you not just simply basked in the beauty of her form?
Have you never looked at the beauty of a woman's body without thinking you want to have sex with her?
Yes, I can be attracted to the physical beauty of a female, but it's not sexual attraction, it's plain and simple attraction to beauty.


I guess there are certain situations where I have felt this as well. My friends wives and girlfriends come to mind. Im sure gay fashion designers feel this way as well towards their female models. This doesnt sound realistic when considering a possible romantic partner though. This sounds cold and distant, kind of like admiring a painting in the Louvre. You are in awe of the beauty of the object and you keep your feelings about the beauty at bay? Well, its obviously an option if you feel that way but I dont. If I am considering a romantic partner, I do not divorce my breathless feelings of desire and sexual attraction with my awe of her physical beauty, her personality etc. It’s a total package for me. To each his own AC.


But beyond that physical beauty I simply look into her eyes and then I am immersed in unspeakable beauty,
according to the beauty that female sees in herself, which has got nothing to do with the physical realm, unless a person believes it does


When I look in a womans eyes I am immersed in her unspeakable essence of love. Again, to each his own

Thanks for your response AC.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Rosewater: how sweet! agreed looks don't last forever, but intelligence, personality, character lasts forever.. I wish more men placed value on those things.

Thank You *smile* This is true as we age, and I'd like to 'age gracefully' as they say. Show my grey hairs with pride and let my girlfriend do the same! *grin*

AC: ~laughs~ It's definately not an age thing.
I've been thinking about it since posting in these threads and I come up with two ideas so far.
1: Intimacy is a private thing.
2: Dressing sexual, as I interpet it, is saying, "Hey, check me out, wanna have sex with me."
It bypasses relationship and it's all about sex.
Of course I have no idea why a particular female chooses to dress sexually.
And I'm sure I'd get a slap in the face if I enquired.
I'm sure many females growing up in this time don't see they are saying "have sex with me " by the clothes they wear.
To them that style is the current beautiful.
Ah, but when you switch 'beautiful' to 'attractive', then the concept chances.

To be beautiful is simply to radiate beauty, for the enjoyment of self...and others.
However, to be attractive denotes doing something to attract something.
The effort is specifically to attract a mate.
Then, dressing sexually comes across to me as, "hey wanna have sex with me", as an attractor and not as an actual invite for sex.

If one feels or knows one is already beautiful, hence attractive, then no need to show skin.
On the other side of the equation though is the male(not all)...engrossed in money, power, sport, WOW, online FPS, playstation, Xbox, TV, Jacka$$ with their mates, Star Trek conventions, beer, Porn, on and on and on, so female has to get male's attention somehow.

*laughs* Yeah I know, I guess it's more of a 'emotional maturity' thing to be honest (I was just joking about myself *wink*). I agree though with what you said there!

[Mountain-Goat]

(I was just joking about myself *wink*).
Yeah, saw that and had a jolly good chuckle, do it often myself.

Although a huge fan of humor of many forms, I also have this refined program inside that looks at the issue behind the humor and explores that.

In social situations, this program of mine can kill the fun mood.
I'm still learning to balance this quality I have.

I have found that analysing a damn good joke is not the response the teller was looking for...~laughs~

[Kapitan_Prien]

^ *laughs* Yeah. :D

[Mountain-Goat]

You are wrong AC, here is the original post you quoted that I was referring to in my response
Originally Posted by SeaZen
The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually.
I was referring to this, from post 41. What you quoted was not from your original post, but a latter one.
First of all, let me explain to you the nature of guys.
Regarding what you have quoted though, it's still an issue of you speaking for others.
You still believe most guys are sexually motivated/stimulated in regards to relationships.
Why? A study of a few thousand men says so?
When you say "most men", give me a number.
What do you classify as being most men?
And the you say,"reach out to us", this "us" is referring to "most men".
Who are these "most men" you speak for?

As for the rest of your response, I have offline things to do this morning.
Wanting to continue the discussion but I need more time than I have today.
Will get to it asap.

[Mountain-Goat]

Got it! After carefully re-reading it, it is my reference to "we" that implies that its right for all. You are quite the grammarian! :smile:
Please explain what a grammarian is as I have never heard of the term.
I'd like to know what is it I am being accused of or admired for before commenting. ~smiles~

[Kapitan_Prien]

Hmm...The best way for a woman to reach out to me...

...never stopped to think about that one.

I guess...if she stopped, took the time to read my story/experiences, ask me questions and just 'listen' to me...

I think there is a part of me that wants to 'talk' and to just be 'listened' to...and talk about my interests (I don't want it to sound so self-centered) but...it just seems like...

whenever I want to 'talk' about my experiences...I usually get some sort of 'reading'...or the stereotypical 'that was then - this is now' (application of reincarnation by birth to my life - which is totally different)...or some sort of 'out there' stuff when my focus is on the physical.

*sighs*

I've pretty much given up on it all...

[SeaZen]

Please explain what a grammarian is as I have never heard of the term.
I'd like to know what is it I am being accused of or admired for before commenting. ~smiles~

Its a "grammar expert dude". Im not sure what the technical term is for that. It looks like my spelling and grammar were once again incorrect. :smile:

[Kapitan_Prien]

What about 'Bridezillas'?

Certainly not for me. If a woman can't keep her cool on something like that...how am I to expect her to keep her cool in a REAL emergency?

[SeaZen]

I was referring to this, from post 41. What you quoted was not from your original post, but a latter one.


I was under the impression you were referring to your post #66 which is what I was addressing in my last response to you. I will write it off as "crossed wires".



You still believe most guys are sexually motivated/stimulated in regards to relationships.


I never said that nor do I know what you mean by that as it is quite a broad statement so I will not comment on it. If you are referring to the following quote of mine "the number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually." your interpretation above comes nowhere close to what I actually stated and expressed.


Why? A study of a few thousand men says so?
When you say "most men", give me a number.
What do you classify as being most men?
And the you say,"reach out to us", this "us" is referring to "most men".
Who are these "most men" you speak for?


:smile: Instead of answering each of your questions separately, I will give an all inclusive answer. Let me know if I missed anything or if you have any more questions. Also, my answers are based on the quote of mine I stated in the previous paragraph

Well, I definitely consider myself as one of the "most guys" that is why I used "us" in this particular instance but that does not mean that I appointed myself the official spokesperson for "most guys". It is a majority percentage number based on what I am about to outline below. I cant give you an exact number but i can whittle down "most guys" a bit for you.

It is not the following guys though some (or even many) of them may nevertheless feel the way I described in that quote:
1) Those men who live at or below the poverty line, who struggle greatly to survive - there are billions of them on this planet and Im sure these matters of which we speak take a back seat to their daily survival

2) Those men who underwent and are still under the influence of heavy, sexually repressive, religious and or cultural indoctrination e.g. the middle east, hardcore christian fundamentalists etc.

3) The elderly and those due to physical disablities are unable to perform sexually

4) The insane, those with severe psychological trauma due to severe abuse etc.

Im sure there may be some more subsets of guys I can add to this list but Im hoping you get the picture.

After removing that set of guys I listed above, you have all the rest. Now within that subset of guys I consider "all the rest" is where I pull my "most guys" figure from. Most guys in this picture is a majority. I would say definitely over 60% majority based on the studies. I would also say that the percentages fluctuate based on age e.g. (and this is only an example to illustrate my point and not actual numbers taken from a study) 90% of guys in their teens and early twenties would agree with that statement whereas only 55% of guys over 50 would agree with that statement.

How do I come to this figure and these conclusions?
1) The many studies not just here in the states but around the world that have been done in these regards that indicate as such
2) My personal life experience and interaction with others throughout my life that indicate as such
3) My observations of those that i do not know personally that indicate as such

AC, I dare you to go to a college dorm and poll the guys on the truthfulness of that statement of mine that you are at issue with and see what kind of responses you get.

Now based on all of the above is how I came up with my "most guys" reference and thats all it is, a reference. You are of course free to debate the accuracy of my reference all you want, as that is your choice.


Regarding what you have quoted though, it's still an issue of you speaking for others.


Given my explanation above, I dont see "most guys" as speaking for others or an issue. Why do you? Besides, the title of this thread is "what are men attracted to in women" (plural) not "what are you attracted to in a woman" (singular) which asks for and invites cross sectional generalizations and thats all I am doing.

I understand your concerns about my all inclusive words such as "we", "us guys" or "all guys" which I conceded and retracted. Nevertheless, you have still failed to convince me regarding your issue with my "most guys" reference. If you still find it a personal issue and upsetting, it is duly noted for the record, however, I adamantly refuse to retract it and to censor myself in this regard and will continue to use it as I see fit.

[Kapitan_Prien]

After reading SeaZen's post yeah I understand where he's coming from and I'd fall into categories number one and three:

1) Those men who live at or below the poverty line, who struggle greatly to survive - there are billions of them on this planet and Im sure these matters of which we speak take a back seat to their daily survival

3) The elderly and those due to physical disablities are unable to perform sexually

[Kaere]

I must say, I'm still no clearer on what it is men in general look for in a sweetie. Well..that's not true - I think it's very clear that they look for different things when it comes to a liaison and when it comes to a life partner. Interesting, anyway.

[Kapitan_Prien]

*laughs* Kaere *smile*

Well she'd have to be able to put up with my love of antiques (particularly from the period of the mid-late 1930's because all my furniture except my futon is from that time...then there's my dishes and bowls, sewing machine, wardrobe, bed frame, etc.)

There's also my love of the sea and ships...so - she's got to be able to tolerate that...*laughs* *smile*

[Kaere]

Antiques are okay - but when they're useful is the most fun. I have things in my home that I use that came from the family farm from the 30's. Things like glass refrigerator storage containers, loads of antique christmas decorations, plates, knife sets, a glass juicer. I like it because it helps me feel connected.

I think there's lots of people out there who wouldn't see it as "something to put up with" KP. The trick is finding them.

[SeaZen]

I must say, I'm still no clearer on what it is men in general look for in a sweetie. Well..that's not true - I think it's very clear that they look for different things when it comes to a liaison and when it comes to a life partner. Interesting, anyway.

So we can be just as confusing to you as you can be to us? WOW! Who would have thought such a thing was possible! We thought you had us all figured out and were just humoring us and entertaining yourselves as we stumble through this thread! :wink: :smile:

Disclaimer: My reference to "we" and "us" in this particular post was meant as a jestful conversational gesture to Kaere and is not meant to be taken seriously, or as factual indication of how all the men on the planet would feel in this situation, nor am I appointing myself as spokesperson for them.

[White Wolf]

Just for the record, my very public "conversation" with SeaZen has helped a great deal in my interactions with my gentleman friend. :smile:

I know that men are individuals - and treat them as such - but a bit of "inside info" also helps to foster understanding. (Well it helped me, with one particular relationship, anyway.) :smile:

White Wolf

[arive nan]

Men really are confusing lol. Thanks for helping us to decipher you a bit, guys.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Kaere: Antiques are okay - but when they're useful is the most fun. I have things in my home that I use that came from the family farm from the 30's. Things like glass refrigerator storage containers, loads of antique christmas decorations, plates, knife sets, a glass juicer. I like it because it helps me feel connected.

I think there's lots of people out there who wouldn't see it as "something to put up with" KP. The trick is finding them.

Yeah that's how I am - my antiques are being used (are useful) - I'm not the 'stereotypical antique junkie' type...I have to be able to use it and I have to 'fall in love at first sight' with it - since I have very limited space in my apartment. It's also my way of keeping a connection with the time from which I came.

I'd thought I'd possibly find someone in the retro/vintage living scene (for obvious reasons) but that 'avenue' just didn't work out for me.

[Mountain-Goat]

I never meant those quotes to be absolutes about the nature of male female relations though I did use words indicating as such.I hope you can see the ease of which another may misinterpret your meaning if you use words contrary to your intended meaning.
They were merely some generalizations I used for simplified helpful purposes for a specific situation.
Generalisations for a specific thing? Me thinks generalisations are not the best tool for this job.
Secondly, many of the things I posted in these threads were for the sake of flirtatious levity and not indicative of how all men feel about women.
Though...
I never meant those quotes to be absolutes about the nature of male female relations though I did use words indicating as such.
I would usually say “your welcome” when someone thanks me but having a fit never crossed my mind so its not applicable. I always welcome corrective truth. Your candor and honesty is what I hold in high regard about you.
I said thankyou for not having a fit because I come across many who do. I do not know if you are a person who takes fits or not, I simply thanked you for not doing so.
Indeed they do! But the physical sex drive is an undeniable fact that will manifest itself somehow someway. Hmmmm.... will it manifest itself when one is attracted to another or perhaps be the subtle unseen force behing the attraction?
I agree with you in regards to all people have sex drives. The issue is sex being the motivator for a relationship, not whether people have sex drives or not.
A sex drive simply does not manifest, it is chosen, just like all other desires and actions and thoughts a person has.
A person can be attracted and desire another without sex being the driving force.
Yes, and culture needs to be taken into account as well. These studies I mentioned are western civilizational studies. But when you strip away all the ** religious and cultural walls,
...and the ** in studies...
what you have left is desire. Most all of us have a physical sexual drive and desire. The desire to physically bond with another. If that desire is there, it will manifest in one who you find attractive. Not disputing sexual drive, nor am I against it. I deeply enjoy sex.
The issue is what is the motivator for persuing a relationship.
When you say attracted without desire or creating desire, are you saying you have absolutely no feelings, thoughts or inspirational breathless moments of the possibilities of where this kind of relationship can lead at any time in the process? What is your attraction based on? Mere physical beauty alone?
A flower is beautiful...why pick it.
I am attracted to the beauty of the flower... I have no desire to have it, possess it, make it mine.
I can immerse myself and have deep feelings because of the merging of myself and the flower without having/desiring the flower.

I am attracted to various women in my day to day life, they are beautiful.
There is no sexual desire or stimulation. There is no desire to persue a relationship.
If I were to persue a relationship, sex is on the bottom of the list.
It's on the list, but the desire mechanism is not activated.
First on the list is the desire to know her soul.
Closeness is intimacy. I desire for our souls to be intimate.
As this develops, physical closeness develops... holding hands, a kiss, then sex.
Soul intimacy first for me.
If I were to simply have sex without the soul intimacy/getting to know her, I am not having sex with her, I am simply having sex with her body.
Attraction is quite an all encompassing abstract concept. I have no doubt that one can find a woman intellectually or spiritually stimulating at first and then develop a romantic attraction later. You can be attracted to a woman for many reasons, not all of them romantic, but I am talking about romantic attraction AC.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the discussion about what men are attracted to in women?
You are/had(I'm unclear still) claimedmen( you evolved it to most men)are attracted sexually, I dispute that.
Do you mean to tell me you can be romantically attracted with no thought or feeling whatsoever in the back of your mind of any kind of physical intimacy? If so what’s the point?
You've added "romantic" just now. Up till then, the discussion was/is attraction, not romantic attraction.
Nevertheless, you are quite wrong in your assessment of me. It is a plethora of things that evoke attraction to a “chick” in me that I am romantically interested in. One of them is definitely a breathless feeling of desire and sexual attraction. It is not the only thing but it is definitely a part of the whole package. I do not separate beauty, sexuality, personality etc. when considering a romantic partner.
I can only go by what you have written. So far you have only mentioned sexual attraction.
I see the essence of love beyond the 5 senses. Again, to each his own.
I do not know what the essense of love, or what it is to you, but I'll go out on a limb and say that "essence of love, and the beauty I see may be the same thing.
I guess there are certain situations where I have felt this as well. My friends wives and girlfriends come to mind. Im sure gay fashion designers feel this way as well towards their female models. This doesnt sound realistic when considering a possible romantic partner though. This sounds cold and distant, kind of like admiring a painting in the Louvre. You are in awe of the beauty of the object and you keep your feelings about the beauty at bay? Well, its obviously an option if you feel that way but I dont. If I am considering a romantic partner, I do not divorce my breathless feelings of desire and sexual attraction with my awe of her physical beauty, her personality etc. It’s a total package for me. To each his own AC.
Not disputing sexual desire. Disputing sexual desire as the first reason to persue a relationship.
But I do see, now you have expanded on it, that you do not separate all the various attractions.
You're initial statements however, did not reflect this.

[Mountain-Goat]

Its a "grammar expert dude". Im not sure what the technical term is for that. It looks like my spelling and grammar were once again incorrect. :smile:
I like the word , grammarian. Experts may say it's not a real word. Looks like a real word to me.
Nor do I concern myself about other's spelling. The only spelling I keep an eye on is my own.

As for me being an expert in grammer. ugh, no thanks.
I do explore language and word usage. I have found over the last few years, that communication problems/misunderstandings, the majority of them are caused by misunderstanding of the actual words used.

Many claim language is not up to the task of conveying what the soul wants to express.
I joyfully disagree.

In reference to that saying, "listening is a dying art", I see speaking is too.
Not only knowing the best word to use but also the internal freedom to speak one's heart.

Still, your evaluation of me being a grammarian, do you see this ability of mine to be a positive or negative quality SeaZen?
I ask because, once again, most people, online and off, consider this ability of mine to be a negative thing.
Not that It bother's me what they think of this ability, 'cus from where I walk, my exploration of language is most beautiful and enlightening.
But, I do appreciate other's opinions/insights/views.

[Mountain-Goat]

Well, I definitely consider myself as one of the "most guys" that is why I used "us" in this particular instance but that does not mean that I appointed myself the official spokesperson for "most guys". It is a majority percentage number based on what I am about to outline below. I cant give you an exact number but i can whittle down "most guys" a bit for you.

It is not the following guys though some (or even many) of them may nevertheless feel the way I described in that quote:
1) Those men who live at or below the poverty line, who struggle greatly to survive - there are billions of them on this planet and Im sure these matters of which we speak take a back seat to their daily survival

2) Those men who underwent and are still under the influence of heavy, sexually repressive, religious and or cultural indoctrination e.g. the middle east, hardcore christian fundamentalists etc.

3) The elderly and those due to physical disablities are unable to perform sexually

4) The insane, those with severe psychological trauma due to severe abuse etc.

Im sure there may be some more subsets of guys I can add to this list but Im hoping you get the picture.

After removing that set of guys I listed above, you have all the rest. Now within that subset of guys I consider "all the rest" is where I pull my "most guys" figure from. Most guys in this picture is a majority. I would say definitely over 60% majority based on the studies. I would also say that the percentages fluctuate based on age e.g. (and this is only an example to illustrate my point and not actual numbers taken from a study) 90% of guys in their teens and early twenties would agree with that statement whereas only 55% of guys over 50 would agree with that statement.

How do I come to this figure and these conclusions?
1) The many studies not just here in the states but around the world that have been done in these regards that indicate as such
2) My personal life experience and interaction with others throughout my life that indicate as such
3) My observations of those that i do not know personally that indicate as such
You already know of my thoughts of the erroneous nature of studies.

AC, I dare you to go to a college dorm and poll the guys on the truthfulness of that statement of mine that you are at issue with and see what kind of responses you get. I dare you to ask every guy on the planet.
Then figure out how many are speaking from their hearts, who are self aware, who are simply parroting what they percieve via social influences, as how a guy should be.

Now based on all of the above is how I came up with my "most guys" reference and thats all it is, a reference. You are of course free to debate the accuracy of my reference all you want, as that is your choice. I can't debate the accuracy of your references because there are no numbers to calculate.
If every guy was included in these numerous studies, then accuracy would increase greatly, but still there are other factors which makes the results erroneous.
Besides, the title of this thread is "what are men attracted to in women" (plural) not "what are you attracted to in a woman" (singular) which asks for and invites cross sectional generalizations and thats all I am doing. This is a separate issue with which I will not persue.

I understand your concerns about my all inclusive words such as "we", "us guys" or "all guys" which I conceded and retracted. Nevertheless, you have still failed to convince me regarding your issue with my "most guys" reference. If you still find it a personal issue and upsetting, it is duly noted for the record, however, I adamantly refuse to retract it and to censor myself in this regard and will continue to use it as I see fit. Will you join me in clearing all this off the table and begin again, in light of the progress of our discussion thus far?
---------------------------------------------------
Here is what I wish to get into.
First of all, let me explain to you the nature of guys. We are visually and sexually stimulated when we first see a desirable woman. In other words our first thought and impulse when we first see a woman we desire is "wow, it would be great to have sex with her!". So we go with it that impulse and chat her up.

As the evening moves forward we come down to earth from our base impulse and realize, hey, this is about more than just the sex, she wants a relationship as well so we then try to determine if this is someone we want for more than just sex i.e. a relationship. There are 2 possible answers to this

1) "Yes we would love to have sex with you but no we do not wish to pursue a relationship with you".
2) "Yes we would love to have sex with you AND pursue a relationship with you" This is your perception. I'm not interested in studies or numbers validating this.
Why is there not option 3?
3)"Yes we would love to persue a relationship with you AND eventually, sex will be a part of that relationship"
What picture are you painting in women's mind's regarding guys?

The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually. It doesnt have to always be intercourse. It can be as simple as a loving embrace and massage with your hand on a certain body part as you tell us how much you love make us happy this way etc. etc. A loving embrace and massage is sexual? Is this how you interpret physical contact?
You said...
your interpretation above comes nowhere close to what I actually stated and expressed. Please expound on your quoted statements after this line Here is what I wish to get into.

[Mountain-Goat]

Men really are confusing lol. Thanks for helping us to decipher you a bit, guys. Heeeey, that's really sexist ~laughs~
How about confusion is in both camps.
Confusion being based on lack of info of understanding of info.
To remove the confusion about a person, ask them to explain themself.
It doesn't get any simpler than that.

No matter how illogical a person behaves or speaks, there is a logic to their madness.
To understand something takes time.
To understand a person, both must be willing to take the time.

I mean, isn't this what a relationship is all about. Taking the time to get to know one another.
And the opposite of relationship is isolation.
Though technology has now enabled people to communicate with others far more easily, there is internal isolation happening.
Or, there is surface communication/interaction, but the deeper heart communication/interaction is falling by the wayside.
There's more sex, but less intimacy.
Physical union but less inner union.

Personally I see the tide changing, but my range of sight is limited, but that's what I see.

[Mountain-Goat]

I just noticed something interesting about the guys and girls threads.
The girls are writing lists of their preferences and the guys are discussing the issues.
~laughs~ this is soo role reversal.
Role reversal according to what "society" deems as character traits of each gender.

[SeaZen]

I hope you can see the ease of which another may misinterpret your meaning if you use words contrary to your intended meaning.



Yes and that is why I feel language is clearly not up to the task of conveying what the soul wants to express :wink:


Generalisations for a specific thing? Me thinks generalisations are not the best tool for this job.


What is the best tool is determined by the specific situation. According to white wolfs response, our conversation assisted her so it appears that you are incorrect in your assessment (in this particular case anyway)





I said thankyou for not having a fit because I come across many who do. I do not know if you are a person who takes fits or not, I simply thanked you for not doing so.


Another example of why words are not up to the task of what the soul wants to express


I agree with you in regards to all people have sex drives. The issue is sex being the motivator for a relationship, not whether people have sex drives or not.
A sex drive simply does not manifest, it is chosen, just like all other desires and actions and thoughts a person has.
A person can be attracted and desire another without sex being the driving force.


But is it a force nevertheless, conscious or subconcious? What is it that fuels desire and attraction? Are we completely consciously aware of all of the forces at play in attraction and desire conscious or subconcsious? Can sex be a part of this subconscious interplay?



Not disputing sexual drive, nor am I against it. I deeply enjoy sex.
The issue is what is the motivator for persuing a relationship.

A flower is beautiful...why pick it.
I am attracted to the beauty of the flower... I have no desire to have it, possess it, make it mine.
I can immerse myself and have deep feelings because of the merging of myself and the flower without having/desiring the flower.


I dont see consensual sexual relations with another as a means of possession or as analagous to picking a flower. Sex is a most wonderful way of enjoying the beauty of the flower. I do not deny the fact that there could be some kind of subconscious sexual undercurrent at the heart of my visual enjoyment of the woman I am romantically attracted to. As a matter of fact I strongly feel there is, otherwise, it would be just like the gay fashion designer enjoying the aesthetic beauty of his female models. This is where we differ.


I am attracted to various women in my day to day life, they are beautiful.
There is no sexual desire or stimulation. There is no desire to persue a relationship.


I agree, there are many women in my life who I feel are beautiful that I do not feel sexually attracted to or desire to pursue that type of relationship with. I consider them as friends. Thats not the issue though...


If I were to persue a relationship, sex is on the bottom of the list.
It's on the list, but the desire mechanism is not activated.
First on the list is the desire to know her soul.
Closeness is intimacy. I desire for our souls to be intimate.
As this develops, physical closeness develops... holding hands, a kiss, then sex.
Soul intimacy first for me.


What you are describing is a highly conscious process on your part. There are many mechanisms involved when one is romantically attracted to someone conscious and subconcious. How are you so certain that there is not some, oh so subtle subconsious sexual feeling/vibe/attraction undercurrent flowing through your being that is underlying your appreciation of her beauty, soul etc? If we really truly knew every subtle mechanism that drives attraction and desire, we would be much more highly evolved in that arena as individuals and as a species. Anyone who claims that they reached the pinnacle of evolution and awareness in these matter is either a liar or unaware or both (just making a general statement here and not implicating you).


If I were to simply have sex without the soul intimacy/getting to know her, I am not having sex with her, I am simply having sex with her body.


Agreed


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the discussion about what men are attracted to in women?


Yes you are correct, the thread title didnt specify romantic attraction so I guess attraction to women friends counts as well

I dont have time to answer the rest for now...to be continued later

Continuing...

You are/had(I'm unclear still) claimedmen( you evolved it to most men)are attracted sexually, I dispute that.


I will address this in my next post

You've added "romantic" just now. Up till then, the discussion was/is attraction, not romantic attraction.


My conversation with White Wolf, where you have found these qoutes, was indeed in regards to romantic attraction. Though I may not have said the words "romantic attraction" specifically in those postings, it was a given.


I can only go by what you have written. So far you have only mentioned sexual attraction.



It was nevertheless quite a stretch on your part. We are not the sum total of a posting on an internet message board.


I do not know what the essense of love, or what it is to you, but I'll go out on a limb and say that "essence of love, and the beauty I see may be the same thing.



And yet another example on why words cannot even begin to convey what the soul sees and wants to express. This could very well be but I do not wish to make a definitive statement on this yet...

Not disputing sexual desire. Disputing sexual desire as the first reason to persue a relationship.
But I do see, now you have expanded on it, that you do not separate all the various attractions.
You're initial statements however, did not reflect this.


As I said earlier, my initial statements were very general simplifications in regards to a specific conversation I was having with White Wolf about her specific situation. I was using those statements as a simplified tool in a conversation between 2 people. I was not trying to pontificate to the forum in general on the bottom line all encompassing male to female attraction dynamic. Context means a great deal when looking for a correct meaning or interpretation.

Ran out of time again... I will answer your other posts later...

[Mountain-Goat]

Yes and that is why I feel language is clearly not up to the task of conveying what the soul wants to express :wink: A craftsperson does not blame his/her tools.

What is the best tool is determined by the specific situation. According to white wolfs response, our conversation assisted her so it appears that you are incorrect in your assessment (in this particular case anyway) Yes I read what WW had said. I'm not claiming right or wrong, simply discussing.

Another example of why words are not up to the task of what the soul wants to express Or it's an example of a person assuming why a person says something instead of asking why.
Each person filters incoming info, doesn't mean words are not up to the task.
If there is a miscommunication, via words, what is used to sort it out...oh, words.
Looks like words are up to it.

But is it a force nevertheless, conscious or subconcious? ~smiles~ Yes yes, not disputing that. I currently don't see conscious and subconscious.
I see one consciousness, and there are parts that are hidden and parts that are not.
Meaning, it's possible for a person to be completely aware of all parts of self.
When it's divided into conscious and subconscious, to me, this denoted conscious self will never know what's going on in one's subconscious.
What is it that fuels desire and attraction? Well, what is desire and attraction, what are the mechanics of them and that will lead you to the power source.
Are we completely consciously aware of all of the forces at play in attraction and desire conscious or subconcsious? Ah, here you are again saying "we". Change "are we" to "Am I."
In this way, instead of wondering about others, you explore yourself and you will find your answers.
Can sex be a part of this subconscious interplay? There is a sex drive. Some are in over drive, some have turbos.
Mine's been in the garage for a few years, in storage.

I dont see sexual intercourse with another as a means of possession or as analagous to picking a flower. Sex is a most wonderful way of enjoying the beauty of the flower. I do not deny the fact that there could be some kind of subconscious sexual undercurrent at the heart of my visual enjoyment of the flower I am romantically attracted to. As a matter of fact I strongly feel there is, otherwise, it would be just like the gay fashion designer enjoying the aesthetic beauty of his female models. This is where we differ. The analogy is, one can be swept away/intoxicated/etc by the beauty of a woman without sexually wanting the woman, or being sexually aroused.

Then you have discovered somethng of yourself.
You can see romantic attraction, but not attraction without the romantic element.
To your current perception it seems illogical that one exists without the other, in the context of human relationships.

I agree, there are many women in my life who I feel are beautiful that I do not feel sexually attracted to or desire to pursue that type of relationship with. I consider them as friends. Thats not the issue though...What is the issue to you?

What you are describing is a highly conscious process on your part. I am self aware, yes.
There are many mechanisms involved when one is romantically attracted to someone conscious and subconcious. How are you so certain that there is not some, oh so subtle subconsious sexual feeling/vibe/attraction undercurrent flowing through your being that is underlying your appreciation of her beauty, soul etc? I can only be certain of the things I am aware of, and I know via self awareness when I am sexually aroused or not.
Now, are there still parts of me that I am not currently aware of that are sexually influencing my attraction?
Yes it is possible, It would be illogical of me to deny this.
I can only go by what I currently see and what I currently see is I know when I am sexually influenced and when I am not.
Why are you not sexually influenced around those female friends you mentioned?
If we really truly knew every subtle mechanism that drives attraction and desire, we would be much more highly evolved in that arena as individuals and as a species. Anyone who claims that they reached the pinnacle of evolution and awareness in these matter is either a liar or unaware or both (just making a general statement here and not implicating you). Speculation/assumption that it's the pinnacle of evolution and awareness.
You percieve it to be at such a lofty height that it's impossible to reach.
There is a third option, a person has reached this so called pinnacle of self awareness.
They have done so because it's not the pinnacle.
All they've done is stop and have a bit of self exploration.

As for the driving force/mechanism for all things a person does and feels, not just attraction and desire, the answer is very simple.
Choice. a person's will.
Regardless of the complexity or how many elements are involved, the source is the person chooses to.
Sexual desire is created by choosing to want sex with the person you are attracted to.
If you see this sexual mechanism as a biological mechanism that the conscious has no control over, then that is how it shall be for you.
I have learnt otherwise on my self exploration journey these last 10 years.

However, and I agree with your observation that there may be things still hidden that influence a person's decisions.
Yes, no arguement from me, considering the journey I have been on, I know all too well that there is still a lot of unchartered territory of myself.


I think, upon reflection of all we have shared SeaZen, one of the big differences between us that is causing the miscommunication is our different experiences and insights regarding attraction.

Before my journey into celibacy, I can see myself thinking and speaking similar to you.
My perception of attraction would be similar to yours, in that attraction and romance would be inseparable.
I have seen and lived othewise on my journey.

And now I find all this discussion, in this thread and the girl's thread, regarding relationships and such to now look deeper into the subject.

If I am to have a relationship in the future, it's now time to understand myself anew, as I am not the same person I was when I was married and
I have to now look beyond celibacy and start exploring the purpose and joys of a relationship in light of who I am now.

And to transform from a celibate mind to one of relationship...well...it's interesting.

[SeaZen]

You already know of my thoughts of the erroneous nature of studies.


Yes I do, I was merely explaining to you what I meant by most guys which is what you asked for


I dare you to ask every guy on the planet.
Then figure out how many are speaking from their hearts, who are self aware, who are simply parroting what they percieve via social influences, as how a guy should be.


I dont have the lifetime necessary to do this, but it would be interesting. Nevertheless, what does it matter from where or how they all reached their decisions? The focus was on the decisions themselves not where they came from. That was not the basis of the statements, the questions or the discussions we are having. It is an interesting aside though.


I can't debate the accuracy of your references because there are no numbers to calculate.
If every guy was included in these numerous studies, then accuracy would increase greatly, but still there are other factors which makes the results erroneous.
This is a separate issue with which I will not persue.


I dont blame you. As I mentioned in my earlier comment, I was only giving you how I came about my "most guys" comment.


Will you join me in clearing all this off the table and begin again, in light of the progress of our discussion thus far?


You bet! I agree that we have progressed and I wish for it to progress further


---------------------------------------------------
Here is what I wish to get into.
This is your perception. I'm not interested in studies or numbers validating this.
Why is there not option 3?
3)"Yes we would love to persue a relationship with you AND eventually, sex will be a part of that relationship"
What picture are you painting in women's mind's regarding guys?


First of all, I do think its possible to get to know someone first and to develop sexual feelings later. As far as your point 3 is concerned, if you feel that sex is a possibility later, that means that you have already considered it and approved of it at some point in the very beginning which proves my point 1.

As I mentioned in my previous post, that which you quoted from me was an oversimplification based on a 2 person conversation I had outlining a specific situation and addressing a specific situation. There is much more to it than that. I would like to elaborate on those comments to clear things up a bit.

Now as far as points 1 and 2 of my quote, I am talking about a specific situation when one sees (note, that the guy hasnt met her yet) her for the first time (at a party or whatever) and feels a romantic attraction/desire towards her and approaches her with possible romantic intent in mind. Of course this process is all visual at this point. A component of that attraction/desire I believe is sexual. It is one of the many components that drives a male to perceive her in this way that he may not be conscious of that is interwoven with the other components he finds attractive in her . Other components that affect a romantic attraction/desire to her may include her smile that melts your heart, her beautiful long brown hair, those eyes that light up a room, the way her legs look in that mini skirt, etc. I do however believe that these other components contribute to the breathless excitement and strong feeling to bond which I call sexual. It doesnt have to be an active erotic visualization of sex with her or an erection or a conscious thought to have sex with her. Sexual is the feeling and vibe as well as the physical act.

Now the way this manifests in a guy varies with age. AC, Im sure you remember those days as a teen when erections were constant and frequent at the mere sight and romantic thought of a girl. Those early experiences "set the stage" so to speak. This is what Im talking about and I believe this dynamic changes as we age with less emphasis on the immediate sexual erection and thoughts and more on the other things but I believe the sexual dynamic is still there but in lesser form and not necessarily at the forefront, but its still there. I hope this clears things up a bit.


A loving embrace and massage is sexual?
Is this how you interpret physical contact?


Im not sure what you are getting at here in regards to our statments and the quote above but I will take a stab at it. Your quote mentioned motivated/stimulated my quote mentioned lovingly communicated to. Big difference.

As far as your above quote in and of itself, I would like to respond in the context of a intimate consensual relationship between 2 consenting adults. Im still not sure what your getting at with your quote above but what you described is loving intimate physical contact and what is sex but loving intimate physical contact. It doesnt have to involve orgasm and sex organs all the time. In that quote of mine though, I was also referring to hand j*** if you can read between the lines. :D

Will respond to your other posts later as I have time....

[White Wolf]

Alternate Carpark,

Since you have been quoting from SeaZen's posts - some of which were in reply to me - I feel entitled to put in my two cents worth. :smile:

I have responded to SeaZen both in public and in private, to thank him for his help. I did not assume that he could tell me exactly what my friend - or any man besides his good self - was thinking, but his input nevertheless helped a great deal. :smile:

Please give women credit for enough intelligence to be able to differentiate between an opinion and a Universal Law. :smile: We are more than capable of reaching our own conclusions and/or applying advice to our own particular situations.

White Wolf

[SeaZen]

I just noticed something interesting about the guys and girls threads.
The girls are writing lists of their preferences and the guys are discussing the issues.
~laughs~ this is soo role reversal.
Role reversal according to what "society" deems as character traits of each gender.

****!

Aint that the truth! Its usually the guys with the laundry lists (short ones at that) and the girls discussing the feelings and nuances in depth. Well I guess this is a welcome development in that both genders are becoming more "whole". :smile:

[SeaZen]

I like the word , grammarian. Experts may say it's not a real word. Looks like a real word to me.
Nor do I concern myself about other's spelling. The only spelling I keep an eye on is my own.

As for me being an expert in grammer. ugh, no thanks.
I do explore language and word usage. I have found over the last few years, that communication problems/misunderstandings, the majority of them are caused by misunderstanding of the actual words used.

Many claim language is not up to the task of conveying what the soul wants to express.
I joyfully disagree.

In reference to that saying, "listening is a dying art", I see speaking is too.
Not only knowing the best word to use but also the internal freedom to speak one's heart.

Still, your evaluation of me being a grammarian, do you see this ability of mine to be a positive or negative quality SeaZen?
I ask because, once again, most people, online and off, consider this ability of mine to be a negative thing.
Not that It bother's me what they think of this ability, 'cus from where I walk, my exploration of language is most beautiful and enlightening.
But, I do appreciate other's opinions/insights/views.

AC, I will be happy to give you my insights and views on this

My evaluation:

When I said "grammar expert dude" it wasnt that you are sitting there checking for run-ons, dotted i's and crossed t's like a HS teacher. It was a quick response. I will elaborate now.

1)You are highly adept at picking apart what someone says and looking for the meaning in their statements and questioning and challenging them. I personally do not see this as a negative. I tend to do this as well. Those who are heavily invested in their ego's who dont like to be wrong and don't really know themselves inside will find this as a negative. That "guru of all" guy comes to mind. You caused an egoic lashing out meltdown in him after 2 of your posts. I still **** when I think about it. I wouldn't change this.

I see a challenge, not as an egoic battle, but as a way for each of us to discover ourselves and enlightening. This is what Jet Li came to know in the movie "fearless" in relation to his kung fu abilities and how he eventually perceived his challenger (great spiritual movie by the way, I highly recommend it, lots of great kung fu action too). You are quite a worthy challenger in this regard.

2) That said, there is one quality I do find that if you eliminate, it will take you to a higher level. You take something someone says and draw a conclusion about that person. It is impossible to extrapolate someones nature and to draw a conclusion about somenone by one or two sentences of their response. I touched on this earlier in our debate when I stated you are incorrect about me and you said "thats all I have to go by". Though this exchange didnt affect me in a negative way, I do see it as a negative quality that I personally try to avoid. I can understand how this may negatively affect others and cause them to get huffy as they can see this as being presumptuous. Iam probably guilty of this as well once in a while.

You can achieve the same results by going about it differently. Instead of drawing a conclusion about them, you can use the same words to question them e.g. "does this mean that you're the kind of guy that solely uses sexual attraction to evaluate women?" This way, there is no overt presumption, the person doesnt feel negative, the conversation moves forward, and the person has a chance to explain themselves and their position in depth which is where you wanted the conversation to go anyway. As I said earlier, it didnt affect me negatively and as far as I am concerned you can go either way with me when we debate. Just giving you my 2 cents as you requested. One more thought, if its not a highly charged topic, you can probably get away with it e.g. the intepretation of a spiritual book etc. etc.

Concluding Thoughts:

I would not change point number 1 as far as the forum is concerned as that is what this forum is all about. I would however change my tone and delivery and choice of words depending on the situation e.g. if its lighthearted joking around among forum members and you see something you vehemently disagree with it was probably not meant to be taken seriously anyway. I would go with the flow and tread lightly in this scenario and not go for the juggular (I havent seen you do this, though I did issue a disclaimer just in case on one of my joking posts in this thread :wink: )

As far as offline is concerned, that is a whole different story. I would play number 1 by ear and watch how they respond before taking it to a higher level unless its someone you already know well and have a great rapport with. Number 2 would be completely out of the question unless it was a very neutral uncharged topic.

I hope you find this useful

SeaZen :smile:

Will respond to the rest of the posts in chronological order when I have time...

[Zero]

I just noticed something interesting about the guys and girls threads.
The girls are writing lists of their preferences and the guys are discussing the issues.
~laughs~ this is soo role reversal.
Role reversal according to what "society" deems as character traits of each gender.

Hehe I was just going to say this.

I think it could be to do with ideals? Women want it to look like they aren't easy, and have reasonable standards that they want in a partner, men are less effected by this societal expectation, and feel more free to go with the flow?

[SeaZen]

A craftsperson does not blame his/her tools.


When technology evolves, society comes up with new words and phrases to accommodate it (e.g. modem, router, local area network etc.) . Unfortunately, this is not the case when it comes to the evolution of spirituality, consciousness, ascension, love etc. If the proper tools do not exist in the first place, then yes the craftsman can blame his tools. New words need to be created to describe the various nuances of the concepts of love, spirituality, consciousness and the ascension and the evolution that goes along with it. The current vocabulary we have is woefully inadequate. It is analogous to disassembling a high performance automobile engine with sticks and stones. I stand by my original position in this regard.



Or it's an example of a person assuming why a person says something instead of asking why.
Each person filters incoming info, doesn't mean words are not up to the task.
If there is a miscommunication, via words, what is used to sort it out...oh, words.
Looks like words are up to it.


Good point



~smiles~ Yes yes, not disputing that. I currently don't see conscious and subconscious. I see one consciousness, and there are parts that are hidden and parts that are not. Meaning, it's possible for a person to be completely aware of all parts of self.

Consciousness - the state of being conscious; awareness of ones own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings etc.

You may think that way but the actual definitions of the words do not support your conclusions of consciousness. The very definition of consciousness implies to be aware. If some parts are hidden it is not a part of ones consciousness. Me thinks the wordsmith may be tinkering with the definitions when it suit him! ~smiles~



When it's divided into conscious and subconscious, to me, this denoted conscious self will never know what's going on in one's subconscious.


Then where do these pesky things that are hidden hide? If it’s in ones consciousness, it wouldn’t be hidden to begin with according to the definition. I feel that subcosncious fits the bill quite nicely.


Well, what is desire and attraction, what are the mechanics of them and that will lead you to the power source.


Cant answer this definitively but I believe the chakras are a very significant when it comes to the mechanics of desire and and attraction


Ah, here you are again saying "we". Change "are we" to "Am I."

In this way, instead of wondering about others, you explore yourself and you will find your answers.



It was a rhetorical question


There is a sex drive. Some are in over drive, some have turbos.

Mine's been in the garage for a few years, in storage.



Just curious, does celibate also mean abstaining from pleasuring oneself? You don’t have to answer this if its too personal



The analogy is, one can be swept away/intoxicated/etc by the beauty of a woman without sexually wanting the woman, or being sexually aroused.


Consciously yes, how do you know there are not some certain hidden base chakra sexual elements at work here that you are not yet aware of?


Then you have discovered somethng of yourself.
You can see romantic attraction, but not attraction without the romantic element.
To your current perception it seems illogical that one exists without the other, in the context of human relationships.


You have not interpreted my statement correctly, it was in the context of romantic attraction (which I clearly stated) and not of attraction in general. I can see attraction without the romantic element. I have female friends I am attracted to but not romantically. I do however feel that romantic attraction does include the sexual element that is either conscious or “hidden” or as a general vibe of the base chakra.


What is the issue to you?


I had no issues. You did. First it was me using words that indicated that I spoke on behalf of all guys which I conceded. Then it was me using the phrase "most guys" which I didnt concede and resolved to my satisfaction (not sure if it was resolved for you) then you switched gears and it was the quote you wanted me to address which concerned the sexual vibe that is present when males spot a female for the first time they feel romantically attracted to of course. I would like to be clear that this is what you and I apparently wish to discuss and address, not attraction in general so lets keep it strictly on this scenario.



I am self aware, yes.


Do you feel there still could be hidden parts of you? If so this statement is not accurate.


I can only be certain of the things I am aware of, and I know via self awareness when I am sexually aroused or not.
Now, are there still parts of me that I am not currently aware of that are sexually influencing my attraction?
Yes it is possible, It would be illogical of me to deny this.


This is what I originally meant that I oversimplified for White Wolf. It doesn’t have to be a conscious process of figuring out whether you wish to sleep with her or not. It could be that sexual base chakra vibe feeling in you that is connecting with her beneath the surface of conscious thought processes.


Why are you not sexually influenced around those female friends you mentioned?


I can pinpoint it in certain circumstances, I have a general idea in other circumstances and in some I never really gave it any thought, Im just not.


As for the driving force/mechanism for all things a person does and feels, not just attraction and desire, the answer is very simple.
Choice. a person's will.
Regardless of the complexity or how many elements are involved, the source is the person chooses to.


Do you really feel we have a conscious choice in that matter if something hidden is driving it? You believe yourself that there are things hidden.


However, and I agree with your observation that there may be things still hidden that influence a person's decisions.
Yes, no arguement from me, considering the journey I have been on, I know all too well that there is still a lot of unchartered territory of myself.


Then why do think that sexual desire is not one of them? Cannot that be somehow hidden in the attraction process you described for yourself? Something oh so subtle that it flies beneath the radar?


Sexual desire is created by choosing to want sex with the person you are attracted to.


You make this out to be a very conscious thought process. How do you know that there are not hidden processes at work that you are yet not aware of?



If you see this sexual mechanism as a biological mechanism that the conscious has no control over, then that is how it shall be for you.
I have learnt otherwise on my self exploration journey these last 10 years.


I do not see it this way. I see the sexual mechanism as conglomeration of many mechanisms, including all of the chakras, attraction, desire, conscious preferences etc. There is definitely control over who you choose to have sex with and times where sexual attraction manifests after getting to know someone first, but there are also instances where one can spot a female for the first time and feel an instantaneous feeling of romantic desire/sexual attraction.



I think, upon reflection of all we have shared SeaZen, one of the big differences between us that is causing the miscommunication is our different experiences and insights regarding attraction.


I can agree with this


Before my journey into celibacy, I can see myself thinking and speaking similar to you.
My perception of attraction would be similar to yours, in that attraction and romance would be inseparable.
I have seen and lived othewise on my journey.


Attraction and romance are not inseparable for me AC. As I mentioned earlier, I have female friends that I am attracted to as a platonic friend. Even ones that are not married or with boyfriends. I can also see myself being attracted initially and developing a romantic attraction later, however, If I am romantically attracted from the get go it is what it is and there is some kind of sexual element in me at some level, conscious or as a base chakra vibe or below the conscious or whatever. Otherwise it wouldn’t be what it is. I cannot understand how one can be romantically attracted without it at some level.


If I am to have a relationship in the future, it's now time to understand myself anew, as I am not the same person I was when I was married and
I have to now look beyond celibacy and start exploring the purpose and joys of a relationship in light of who I am now.
And to transform from a celibate mind to one of relationship...well...it's interesting.


Yes it is! I wish you all of the best and lots of happy, fullfilling attractions and connections (including sexual ones) in your journey AC! I hope you discover many wonderful things about yourself and the other and if you uncover some not so wonderful beliefs you may have, I’m sure you gratefully cast them aside.

:smile:

[arive nan]

Attraction and romance are not inseparable for me AC. As I mentioned earlier, I have female friends that I am attracted to as a platonic friend. Even ones that are not married or with boyfriends. I can also see myself being attracted initially and developing a romantic attraction later, however, If I am romantically attracted from the get go it is what it is and there is some kind of sexual element in me at some level, conscious or as a base chakra vibe or below the conscious or whatever. Otherwise it wouldn’t be what it is. I cannot understand how one can be romantically attracted without it at some level.

You haven't had the experience of having romantic feelings for someone without any sexual element involved. It could happen some day.. Maybe. Or not..

There are people who identify themselves as asexual, which means that they do not have any libido or sex drive, no arousal, sexual thoughts, nor any desire whatsoever to have sex. Many of them are in their 20s or 30s. So it's not always from old age. There are both males and females in this community. Humans are very complex organisms and there are so many of us that almost anything unusual that can happen with our DNA or body chemistry will happen to some people.

While some asexuals do not have romantic feelings for people, many do. There are people who have no sexual attraction, but they are able to have romantic attraction. They fall in love and form relationships on a foundation of communication.

There have been times, while under too much pressure, that I have had no sexual attraction whatsoever. My romantic feelings for people and desire to have relationships did not go away. There was just no sexual element to them at the time because, in my theory, my body's chemistry responded to the situation of feeling pressured and uncomfortable so that arousal became impossible and sexual desire became nonexistent.

This was a temporary condition for me. And I understand that this is not generally the norm for human beings. I am not trying to criticize you. I just feel like I should mention that there are people who know that romantic attraction without a sexual element is possible because they have experienced it.

[Perspective]

I'm not a guy, but in my observations, it seems that psychologically speaking... men are most attracted to women who are happy.
So, Men, take a good look at all of those lists in the other thread that will make us women happy & there you go! :smile: j/k

I think men & women both are attracted to someone who is secure & can find happiness within themselves.


And I've heard that men hope their woman won't change & women hope their man will change.
Given hormonal issues on both sides... this tendancy is pretty funny both ways, isn't it?

[LightFilledHeart]

You haven't had the experience of having romantic feelings for someone without any sexual element involved. It could happen some day.. Maybe. Or not..

There are people who identify themselves as asexual, which means that they do not have any libido or sex drive, no arousal, sexual thoughts, nor any desire whatsoever to have sex. Many of them are in their 20s or 30s. So it's not always from old age. There are both males and females in this community. Humans are very complex organisms and there are so many of us that almost anything unusual that can happen with our DNA or body chemistry will happen to some people.

While some asexuals do not have romantic feelings for people, many do. There are people who have no sexual attraction, but they are able to have romantic attraction. They fall in love and form relationships on a foundation of communication.

There have been times, while under too much pressure, that I have had no sexual attraction whatsoever. My romantic feelings for people and desire to have relationships did not go away. There was just no sexual element to them at the time because, in my theory, my body's chemistry responded to the situation of feeling pressured and uncomfortable so that arousal became impossible and sexual desire became nonexistent.

This was a temporary condition for me. And I understand that this is not generally the norm for human beings. I am not trying to criticize you. I just feel like I should mention that there are people who know that romantic attraction without a sexual element is possible because they have experienced it.

This is very interesting and thought-provoking. I appreciate your posting this!

[Mountain-Goat]

Alternate Carpark,

Since you have been quoting from SeaZen's posts - some of which were in reply to me - I feel entitled to put in my two cents worth. :smile:

I have responded to SeaZen both in public and in private, to thank him for his help. I did not assume that he could tell me exactly what my friend - or any man besides his good self - was thinking, but his input nevertheless helped a great deal. :smile:

Please give women credit for enough intelligence to be able to differentiate between an opinion and a Universal Law. :smile: We are more than capable of reaching our own conclusions and/or applying advice to our own particular situations.

White Wolf
Um...ok...not sure why you have said all this in regards to mine and SeaZen's exploring, but yeah, no worries White Wolf.

[Mountain-Goat]

SeaZen, I'm still reading your responses. In the meantime I reiterate what may be the big difference beteen our views.

Our views of attraction and it's connection with romance.
And, as I have been skimming over this thread it has come to my attention that I have deep concerns that "most men" could be sexually motivated.
Because of this I am semi automatically defending that they aren't.
That is, I'm thinking to myself," OMG there is no way guys are like this"
But they actually could be.
~continues reading responses~

[SeaZen]

You haven't had the experience of having romantic feelings for someone without any sexual element involved. It could happen some day.. Maybe. Or not..


Romantic attraction no, romantic feelings yes. There is quite a difference.

There are people who identify themselves as asexual, which means that they do not have any libido or sex drive, no arousal, sexual thoughts, nor any desire whatsoever to have sex. Many of them are in their 20s or 30s. So it's not always from old age. There are both males and females in this community. Humans are very complex organisms and there are so many of us that almost anything unusual that can happen with our DNA or body chemistry will happen to some people.

I agree, I think this would fall under my list of exceptions that I posted a couple of pages back


While some asexuals do not have romantic feelings for people, many do. There are people who have no sexual attraction, but they are able to have romantic attraction. They fall in love and form relationships on a foundation of communication.


Do they kiss? Do they touch? Sexuality is not limited to the sex organs and orgasm


There have been times, while under too much pressure, that I have had no sexual attraction whatsoever. My romantic feelings for people and desire to have relationships did not go away. There was just no sexual element to them at the time because, in my theory, my body's chemistry responded to the situation of feeling pressured and uncomfortable so that arousal became impossible and sexual desire became nonexistent.


How can one feel romantic when one is under such pressure? Were these highly romantic feelings and desires manifest in you at the precise time you were under this pressure? If so, do tell us how you accomplished this. When I am under pressure, I am under pressure. However, I have used sex in the past as an effective release of pressure. :D

This was a temporary condition for me. And I understand that this is not generally the norm for human beings. I am not trying to criticize you. I just feel like I should mention that there are people who know that romantic attraction without a sexual element is possible because they have experienced it

Thank you for your input. My use of the word romantic may have been unwise and misleading in this case. I was trying to differentiate attraction you feel towards a friend vs attraction you would feel towards a potential mate. Not sure what a good word is to describe the latter. AC, you are the forum wordsmith. Any ideas?

[arive nan]

And, as I have been skimming over this thread it has come to my attention that I have deep concerns that "most men" could be sexually motivated.
Because of this I am semi automatically defending that they aren't.
That is, I'm thinking to myself," OMG there is no way guys are like this"
But they actually could be.


I think it's true that most men are sexually motivated. Since most women have sex drives it's not an entirely bad thing, as long as men can also develop other levels of attraction. I feel like protesting when someone seems to say or believe that there's always a sexual element for everyone. But I am aware that the sexual element is very prevalent among most humans when it comes to attraction and relationships. It can be problematic in some ways. I think the trick is for people to find someone they are compatible with on various levels who isn't motivated only by sex.

[SeaZen]

I'm not a guy, but in my observations, it seems that psychologically speaking... men are most attracted to women who are happy.
So, Men, take a good look at all of those lists in the other thread that will make us women happy & there you go! :smile: j/k


Very good perspective! A woman can be dressed to the nines in a mini skirt etc. but if she has a scowl on her face, or seems unpleasant...no way jose.

So women, take a good look at all the lists here, particulary the post about women unleashing their inner tigress :wink: and make your men happy! :D

[arive nan]

Do they kiss? Do they touch? Sexuality is not limited to the sex organs and orgasm
Some do, some don't. I know it's hard to believe for many people, but some people don't place any importance or have desire for any physical intimacy, or their physical intimacy is not motivated by sexuality. After all, not all touching is motivated by sexuality. Even if it's an expression of affection. Heterosexuals can hug their same sex friends and there's no sexual element to it.

How can one feel romantic when one is under such pressure? Were these highly romantic feelings and desires manifest in you at the precise time you were under this pressure? If so, do tell us how you accomplished this. When I am under pressure, I am under pressure. However, I have used sex in the past as an effective release of pressure. :D
I did feel these romantic feelings while under pressure. I loved my partner, I wanted there to be more understanding between us and attempted to communicate in a way that would bring about more understanding, his happiness was of great importance to me and I did what I could to facilitate it, it was important to me for us to be together as a loving couple and communicate our love for each other in other ways... etc. The pressure I was under was that he was unsatisfied sexually and guilting me about it constantly and always complaining that he wasn't getting as much as he needed no matter how often I made myself do it even though I had no desire to. For some women, that can thoroughly kill their libido.

[SeaZen]

I did feel these romantic feelings while under pressure. I loved my partner, I wanted there to be more understanding between us and attempted to communicate in a way that would bring about more understanding, his happiness was of great importance to me and I did what I could to facilitate it, it was important to me for us to be together as a loving couple and communicate our love for each other in other ways... etc. The pressure I was under was that he was unsatisfied sexually and guilting me about it constantly and always complaining that he wasn't getting as much as he needed no matter how often I made myself do it even though I had no desire to. For some women, that can thoroughly kill their libido.

I'm sorry AN, I didnt mean for you to get into so much intimate personal detail. I had thought this was financial pressure or pressure from a job or something. But now that its out, did you suggest uh, hand stimulation? That might be a good compromise.

[arive nan]

I'm sorry AN, I didnt mean for you to get into so much intimate personal detail. I had thought this was financial pressure or pressure from a job or something. But now that its out, did you suggest uh, hand stimulation? That might be a good compromise.
I don't mind it. I just sound bitter because I'm... bitter lol. There was compromise, but even that was something I really didn't feel like doing. For a long while after that relationship, I believed I would be alone the rest of my life because I didn't want sex and all men do want it.. It was very depressing. But I eventually spent enough time alone, without any of that kind of pressure, and my body chemistry recovered. After a lot of research I found out that, although he insisted to me hundreds an hundreds of times that the way he is is normal for guys, he was not exactly normal. It wasn't an overactive libido. The problem with him was that, although he claimed over and over that sex was about affection for him, this was not true. For him it was more about feeding an addiction than about affection. So it helped to find out that, although sexual desire is normal for most men, most are not just trying to feed an unhealthy addiction.. My relationships since then have been comparatively less problematic in that department.

[Kapitan_Prien]

A woman who has a sense of 'awareness', but isn't all philosophical...and goes on about things that I could care less about.

[SeaZen]

I think it's true that most men are sexually motivated. Since most women have sex drives it's not an entirely bad thing, as long as men can also develop other levels of attraction. I feel like protesting when someone seems to say or believe that there's always a sexual element for everyone. But I am aware that the sexual element is very prevalent among most humans when it comes to attraction and relationships. It can be problematic in some ways. I think the trick is for people to find someone they are compatible with on various levels who isn't motivated only by sex.

Well, I think the trick for men to deeply connect and communicate to a womans soul and to satisfy her in the ways she desires very often. If a man can do this, it will come naturally for the woman to want to satisfy him sexually very often. A true win win situation.

[Mountain-Goat]

My conversation with White Wolf, where you have found these qoutes, was indeed in regards to romantic attraction. Though I may not have said the words "romantic attraction" specifically in those postings, it was a given. This is definately the crux of it. My perspective is, or I can use, appears to be very different because of my celibacy.
There is no sexual desire on my part or desire for relationship.

Around 2 years ago, I was coming out of the shops and there were some guys doing sign ups for a charity thingy.
He wanted to shake my hand, I declined and said I don't shake hands but I do hug.
He and his friend did not, but one said as he pointed behind me, "She does."
And there she was... the most beautiful woman I have ever seen.
Tall, tanned, well proportioned curves, long hair falling loosely over her shoulders, full eyebrows,
dark eyes that I could swim in forever yet sparkled with a childlike joy of life, her body language emitting inner strength balanced with openess/vunerability infused with joyful calm.
She took my breath away the moment I turned...she smiled...and then we embraced....wow!
And when she spoke, even the angels stopped to listen, it was that beautiful.
We chatted about the charity and psychological/spiritual matters and 5 seconds after saying goodbye, walking back to my car, there wasn't a speck of her in my thoughts.
I can recall only the incident now, not the image of her or how I felt.

I am beginning to be reminded, through our time together SeaZen, that my celibate journey has made me somewhat unique in comparison to those that are not.

It was nevertheless quite a stretch on your part. We are not the sum total of a posting on an internet message board. I can only go by what a person says.

And yet another example on why words cannot even begin to convey what the soul sees and wants to express. This could very well be but I do not wish to make a definitive statement on this yet... I still disagree that language is the problem. To me it's the act of communication that needs development.
EG: As you and I discuss further, which also allows us both to delve deeper into ourselves, our perceptions/beliefs/ideas, understanding of each other increases.
Well, haha, I guess, sometimes, the hole of miscommunication gets bigger the longer two people communicate, not so here though.


As I said earlier, my initial statements were very general simplifications in regards to a specific conversation I was having with White Wolf about her specific situation. I was using those statements as a simplified tool in a conversation between 2 people. I was not trying to pontificate to the forum in general on the bottom line all encompassing male to female attraction dynamic. Context means a great deal when looking for a correct meaning or interpretation. I understand.
It's just that on my journey I have learnt of the dangers associated with generalising.
But I now see clearly, the context you speak of.

[Mountain-Goat]

In the mean time, as I am still reading replies, here's some fun.
I've been rereading Hitchhiker's this month.
In regards to studies and I found it doubly funny 'cus of our discussions in here.
This is from page 1 of the 4th book of the Hitch hiker's Trilogy.

"That evening it was dark early, which was normal for the time of year. It was cold and windy, which was normal.
It started to rain, which was particularly normal.
A spacecraft landed, which was not.

There was nobody around to see it except for some spectacularly stupid quadrupeds who hadn't the faintest idea what to make of it,
or whether they were meant to make anything of it, or eat it, or what.
So they did what they did to everything which was to run away from it and try to hide under each other, which never worked.
It slipped down out of the clouds, seemingly balanced on a single beam of light.

From a distance you would scarcely have noticed it through the lightning and the storm clouds, but seen from close it was strangely beautiful -
a grey craft of elegantly sculpted form: quite small.

Of course, one never has the slightest notion what size or shape different species are going to turn out to be,
but if you were to take findings of the latest Mid-Galactic Census report as any kind of accurate guide to statistical averages
you would probably guess that the craft would hold about six people, and you would be right.

You'd probably guessed that anyway. The Census report, like most such surveys, had cost an awful lot of money
and didn't tell anybody anything that they didn't already know - except that every single person in the Galaxy had 2.4 legs and owned a hyena.
Since this was clearly not true the whole thing had eventually to be s*******."
~laughs~

[SeaZen]

SeaZen, I'm still reading your responses. In the meantime I reiterate what may be the big difference beteen our views.

Our views of attraction and it's connection with romance.
And, as I have been skimming over this thread it has come to my attention that I have deep concerns that "most men" could be sexually motivated.
Because of this I am semi automatically defending that they aren't.
That is, I'm thinking to myself," OMG there is no way guys are like this"
But they actually could be.
~continues reading responses~

Well, for the record I am not exclusively sexually motivated when looking for a relationship and that was not what I was implying in the post you wanted us to discuss most recently. I was just saying that a sexual/base chakra aspect is a part of the overall "romantic" attraction process in the very specific scenario I painted (boy sees girl at party for the first time and feels romantically attracted). Be it overt or in the background, subconcious etc. Even in this scenario, I could change my mind after speaking to the girl in question due to other aspects and so could many other guys which is also what I alluded to.

As far as sexual motivation is concerned in and of itself, it is my opinion that it is most prevalent among teenage guys and dwindles down slowly as a guy ages and considers other aspects. This is due in the most part to the raging hormones that cause those frequent and long lasting erections as a teen. Its why I feel that society should encourage mutual masturbation among teens of the same age so that the guy can get release and his mind off of it and have a chance to get the know the girl on a higher level without that as a distraction. The surgeon general under Bill Clinton suggested this in the early 90's and she was forced out of office because of it.

[Perspective]

Well, I think the trick for men to deeply connect and communicate to a womans soul and to satisfy her in the ways she desires very often. If a man can do this, it will come naturally for the woman to want to satisfy him sexually very often. A true win win situation.
Exactly! I think every couple should have this blown up, framed & hanging on their wall... or at least understand it well. :smile: Sex is one thing... making love is something else.

It's significant that connection & communication comes before sex - it seems the natural order.
Some say men bond mostly sexually or physically... but most couples don't have sex on the 1st date. Instead, a couple spends time getting to know each other & connecting. Mutual sexual interest is likely even from the beginning, but to show self-control says alot about one's potential to be loyal, among other things.

[Bellasong]

Hi All,


Well in my experience and I'm 43 now, LOL! All the men I have had relationships with it, was about SEX! LOL! The men you are talking about I have never known. All the men I have been with were well, Jesse James types. Fun guys at first and very sexual, untill they got tired of me and needed a new fix! Untill the man I believe to be my Soul Mate/ Twin Soul turned me down when I asked him to hang out because he has a girl friend. I didn't even know men like that existed. Ones that were faithful:confused: I couldn't believe it:confused: Good men actually exist:confused: Men that care about more than just how you look when you go out with them and what you will do in the bedroom:confused: Damn! Men who are Deep? Tell me where they are all at?



Love and Peace,
Bellasong:smile:

[Perspective]

I didn't even know men like that existed. Ones that were faithful:confused: I couldn't believe it:confused: Good men actually exist:confused: Men that care about more than just how you look when you go out with them and what you will do in the bedroom:confused: Damn! Men who are Deep? Tell me where they are all at?
Love and Peace,
Bellasong:smile:
Hi Bellasong,
It sounds like you've had your share of heart-breaks. I feel for you & can relate in a way... Most guys I dated seemed like they only thought from below. But believe it or not, there are guys out there... who will respect you enough to wait to have sex with you on your wedding night - I married one. That's not to say that my marriage is "happily ever after" by any means... But we make a pretty good team as parents.

IMO, upbringing is huge. If a guy was taught to respect women - to be a gentleman, to have self-control (not just with sex, but also with money etc.)... chances of him contributing well to a relationship increase. Guys I've known to be this way were strictly religious- which has it's own downfalls. Nobody's perfect... it's a question of choosing which set of strengths & weaknesses that match with your own, I guess. Also, it can depend on where you meet guys... forget the clubs/meat markets.

On a lighter note... Jim Carrey gives his take on this subject (the last couple of minutes).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb4t3wzL058

[Bellasong]

Thanks perspective! So weird though that utube link you put up when I clicked on it to watch, over to the side where it shows other Jim Carey vids there was the name of the man I believe to be my Soul Mate/Twin Soul! LOL! Jeez I can't win.



Love and Peace,
Bellasong:smile:

[Mountain-Goat]

AC, I will be happy to give you my insights and views on this

My evaluation:

When I said "grammar expert dude" it wasnt that you are sitting there checking for run-ons, dotted i's and crossed t's like a HS teacher. It was a quick response. I will elaborate now.

1)You are highly adept at picking apart what someone says and looking for the meaning in their statements and questioning and challenging them. I personally do not see this as a negative. I tend to do this as well. Those who are heavily invested in their ego's who dont like to be wrong and don't really know themselves inside will find this as a negative. That "guru of all" guy comes to mind. You caused an egoic lashing out meltdown in him after 2 of your posts. I still **** when I think about it. I wouldn't change this. ~recalls "guru of all" guy and looks through thread subscriptions~
Ah, I cannot find this guy you speak of. Link please kind sir.
Or was this before SF had it's own meltdown and the thread is lost forever?
Regardless...please continue...
I see a challenge, not as an egoic battle, but as a way for each of us to discover ourselves and enlightening. This is what Jet Li came to know in the movie "fearless" in relation to his kung fu abilities and how he eventually perceived his challenger (great spiritual movie by the way, I highly recommend it, lots of great kung fu action too). You are quite a worthy challenger in this regard. Fearless is on my all time favs list.
2) That said, there is one quality I do find that if you eliminate, it will take you to a higher level. You take something someone says and draw a conclusion about that person. It is impossible to extrapolate someones nature and to draw a conclusion about somenone by one or two sentences of their response. I touched on this earlier in our debate when I stated you are incorrect about me and you said "thats all I have to go by". Though this exchange didnt affect me in a negative way, I do see it as a negative quality that I personally try to avoid. I can understand how this may negatively affect others and cause them to get huffy as they can see this as being presumptuous. Iam probably guilty of this as well once in a while. I have been slowly changing and adapting in the way I interact with others.
The same intensity of confronting and challenging I do to myself, wonderful that it is, is not recieved the same as I do.
I am learning to ask questions more, instead of blurting out my observations.
Also learning how to communicate the same information without the other feeling the need, consciously or unconsciously, to raise their defense mechanisms.

In regards to our discusiion, I am beginning to see the discussion and the way in which you have expressed yourself,
has stirred up things within because I am changing and re evaluating myself and my perception.

You can achieve the same results by going about it differently. Instead of drawing a conclusion about them, you can use the same words to question them e.g. "does this mean that you're the kind of guy that solely uses sexual attraction to evaluate women?" This way, there is no overt presumption, the person doesnt feel negative, the conversation moves forward, and the person has a chance to explain themselves and their position in depth which is where you wanted the conversation to go anyway. As I said earlier, it didnt affect me negatively and as far as I am concerned you can go either way with me when we debate. Just giving you my 2 cents as you requested. One more thought, if its not a highly charged topic, you can probably get away with it e.g. the intepretation of a spiritual book etc. etc. Laziness on my part due to things and inner fatigue that I am slowly becoming aware of.
As have you described, this is how I prefer to communicate.
This month has been highly unusual and it's only through our interaction do I see the shift.
Looking back now since entering into this thread, I can see the transformational turmoil that has been going on this month.

I would not change point number 1 as far as the forum is concerned as that is what this forum is all about. I would however change my tone and delivery and choice of words depending on the situation e.g. if its lighthearted joking around among forum members and you see something you vehemently disagree with it was probably not meant to be taken seriously anyway. I would go with the flow and tread lightly in this scenario and not go for the juggular (I havent seen you do this, though I did issue a disclaimer just in case on one of my joking posts in this thread :wink: )

As far as offline is concerned, that is a whole different story. I would play number 1 by ear and watch how they respond before taking it to a higher level unless its someone you already know well and have a great rapport with. Number 2 would be completely out of the question unless it was a very neutral uncharged topic.

I hope you find this useful

SeaZen :smile: Yes, most helpful SeaZen and thankyou for your calm responses and willingness to get into it.
Though the expansion of this thread and the other things I am doing offline in prep for tazzie, I'm fatiguing.
Less talking by me and more relaxed deep pondering, though there was the question of masterbating that I'm looking forward to addressing.
This conversation is joyfully turning out to be one of self confrontation.

[White Wolf]

Um...ok...not sure why you have said all this in regards to mine and SeaZen's exploring, but yeah, no worries White Wolf.

Alternate Carpark,

Please accept my apologies - I was having a bad day. :icon_frown:

White Wolf

[arive nan]

Well, I think the trick for men to deeply connect and communicate to a womans soul and to satisfy her in the ways she desires very often. If a man can do this, it will come naturally for the woman to want to satisfy him sexually very often. A true win win situation.
One of the ways many women want to be satisfied is sexually. It's true that being treated well and connecting and being satisfied on many other levels will help keep the libido alive for both partners. However, having sex while one partner isn't feeling that need at the time too often will have a detrimental effect on libido for some women. They might be happy to keep doing it as long as other needs are met, but then again they might not be if one partner loses their libido. If they save it for when both partners desire sexual satisfaction, they will both have that desire more strongly and more often.

[SeaZen]

One of the ways many women want to be satisfied is sexually. It's true that being treated well and connecting and being satisfied on many other levels will help keep the libido alive for both partners. However, having sex while one partner isn't feeling that need at the time too often will have a detrimental effect on libido for some women. They might be happy to keep doing it as long as other needs are met, but then again they might not be if one partner loses their libido. If they save it for when both partners desire sexual satisfaction, they will both have that desire more strongly and more often.

As I mentioned earlier, there are compromises that can be made. I can completely understand a woman not wanting intercourse every time a man feels horny but there are other options and hand stimulation is one of them. I cannot comprehend how 2 to 5 minutes of hand stimulation for your man in this case is such an enormous pain and sacrifice for women. Please explain this to me.

If it is a sacrifice for whatever reason, thats OK. We all vibrate differently. If this is the case, then its ok if the couple parts amicably and the other finds one who vibrates at their level.

[Perspective]

...If they save it for when both partners desire sexual satisfaction, they will both have that desire more strongly and more often. If they save it for when they're both hot & ready... then after the 1st little exciting romantic phase... it will never happen!

Men are like microwaves & women are like crockpots... as far as the turn-on timing. Men need to be patient & attentive before sex (waaaaaay before sex - like all day lol :smile: ), & women need to learn to block out the many other distractions & focus. As implied, the desire for sex is very much mental... It seems that a lot of women will have sex before their really turned on & will be left without orgasm - so it isn't as fun... Use your imagination to help with this if needed.

I wonder if sex should be had when it's not mutually felt, or if it should be withheld... until emotional connection is made. A marriage councilor taught that couples should go out on a date at least once every week & that they should have sex scheduled for at least 2 times a week... The sex part sounded a little too planned for me - but I get the idea. It's like anything - if you don't schedule it - it may not happen! lol :smile: There has to be give & take both ways... just as we may not be the horn dogs that men seem to be, they aren't always feeling like emotionally connecting deeply.

I like what SeaZen said - in finding someone who matches your sexual energy... just keep in mind that most men won't completely fit it, because men & women are different (I know that's obvious - but these days that needs to be pointed out :rolleyes: ).

[arive nan]

As I mentioned earlier, there are compromises that can be made. I can completely understand a woman not wanting intercourse every time a man feels horny but there are other options and hand stimulation is one of them. I cannot comprehend how 2 to 5 minutes of hand stimulation for your man in this case is such an enormous pain and sacrifice for women. Please explain this to me.

If it is a sacrifice for whatever reason, thats OK. We all vibrate differently. If this is the case, then its ok if the couple parts amicably and the other finds one who vibrates at their level.
I don't know what it's like to be with a man who would be satisfied after 2 to 5 minutes and I don't think I ever will. I wasn't just asked for just 2 to 5 minutes and I would be very skeptical that a guy who says that would really mean just 2 to 5 minutes. I would suspect that if I heard this claim and thought that doesn't sound like such a sacrifice then got into it, it would turn into "I don't understand how one hour is such a sacrifice." Believe me, after the first 30 minutes it gets pretty boring and feels pretty demeaning and there's still 30 minutes left and by then I already have a lot of resentment.... So I look for a guy who would not expect me be like his sex provider even while I won't enjoy it.

I did say that it's a problem if it happens too much while one partner isn't feeling any need. I'm not exactly a cold fish in my natural state. Normally I'd tend to start trying to seduce the guy almost every time we're alone. I like giving hand jobs. But I'm not going to be in the mood all the time and would like my guy to respect that as I would respect it if he's not in the mood occasionally (which does happen). The basis of the problem is that if I perceive the attitude that a woman's purpose is to be the sex provider even when she's not going to enjoy it I feel demeaned and objectified. So when I see the opinion that a woman should provide sex when she's not in the mood it's is a red flag to me after what I've been through. I don't ever want to be treated that way again and lose my libido again. I want to be able to continue to enjoy sex. I like my libido and want to keep it.

[arive nan]

By the way, as for sexual compatibility, one of the many problems with my last relationship was that he couldn't keep me satisfied. Which, although very depressing at the time, looking back now at the grand scheme of things it's kind of... poetic? Not the right word... Ironic? Maybe. It's kind of comforting in some ways to know that some wouldn't be able to keep up with me and a guy who's about average in that department might be just right...

As for the crockpot thing... A woman doesn't have to be ready to go right then and there to be in the mood for starting something. If we're used to enjoying sex with a partner, we might want to start something so we can become ready because we know we're going to enjoy it once we are. Besides, some men are like the crockpots sometimes...

[Mountain-Goat]

Damn! Men who are Deep? Tell me where they are all at?

Love and Peace,
Bellasong:smile:
Well, there's one on his way to Tazzie, but I'm off the market.
And you know the saying, All the good men are either married or gay"
One could add celibate to that. ~laughs~

I know where the good men are Bella. Not where you have been looking so far.
So, change where you look or change the way you see...or both.

[Kaere]

I gotta say - the crockpot analogy made me laugh. Because it's sorta true, but (for me) not in the way that seems to be understood here (that a woman needs loads of time to heat up). Fill up a pot (any pot, male or female) with all the good relationship stuff (love attention sharing being considerate understanding communication and lots of touch and affection) and it'll almost always be ready to boil over with the least amount of heat applied. If you don't have those essential ingredients, and there ain't nothing you can do to make things happen.

As for "helping out" a partner - if one really isn't in the mood, I think it's unfair to be pushy about it. A few moments spent alone can do the same thing and can sometimes be inspiring.

[Mountain-Goat]

Alternate Carpark,

Please accept my apologies - I was having a bad day. :icon_frown:

White Wolf ~smiles~ No no, you have every right to express yourself WW, and what you said was valid, I just can't see the connection.
Shall I put it down to something similar to what I am experiencing within this thread.
I am not my usual self in here, and I find my emotions and outer self influencing my responses.
Which is a-ok.
It is an interesting journey, this thread.
Apology not necessary, but yes, joyfully accepted.
Bad days...compared to the last 2 years, I'm having an annoying month, so your bad day is understood, think nothing of it.

[Mountain-Goat]

Just curious, does celibate also mean abstaining from pleasuring oneself? You don’t have to answer this if its too personal
There's still a lot to get through and I seriously doubt I can now, fatigue and Tazzie looms close now, got to pack and stuff.
This, however, caught my eye.
Speaking of this may address may other aspects of this discussion.
I see it will but it may not for you and others.

I do not know if there is a rule book of celibacy, so I can only speak of my experiences...or lack of them ~laughs~

10ish years ago, my wife left. The love of my life. I was devastated.
We were together for 10 years, and within one month of her telling me, she was gone.

Amidst the intense pain, I masterbated like crazy. 3-4 times a day, every day.

It was the only pleasure I had amidst a sea of inner torture.
We had a healthy and deep sex life together.
For me, as I cannot speak for the X, sex was a deeply spiritual experience of oneness, well beyond the outer physical and emotional oneness.

A few months into the breakup, I looked at myself and, "What the hell?"
The marriage breakup was also the catylist for my self awakening.
Masterbating was illogical. It served no purpose, it was a weak substitute, it was becoming an addiction.
There was brief pleasure, but there was no connection.
Well no real connection. There was connection to illusions and the pleasure kept the cycle going.

But as I explored it, I began to see, and was shocked that could human existance run solely on two base principles.
Run away from pain, run toward pleasure.
Surely there's more to life than those two things and I wanted to explore to find out.

The sex drive would have to be the strongest of all urges.
Though sex has had a facelift over the centuries in that sex is now more about pleasure and less about procreation.
But then again, I have not spoken with people from previous ages so maybe sex has always been about pleasure
and it's only the labcoaters who state sex was about procreation, survival of the species.

Anyways, as the months went on and life was slowly developing into a permanent single parent life, I chose to forego a partner
and because of my inner journey I chose to forego any sexual pleasure.
I was not ashamed/embarrassed/etc about masterbating, I simply saw masterbating as a dead end.
There was nothing down that road except fleeting surface pleasure that connected to nothing.

I was on a journey and dead ends were unimportant, of no use, hinderances, holding me back.
Back then I did not know how profoundly significant many decisions I made were.
Going from a vibrant sex life to no sexual pleasure at all was not easy and it took many years to get to where I am now and the benefits gained from such decisions.
Do I rigidly(haha rigidly)adhere to my gameplan? no. This year I masterbated...~looks~...under 10 times.
Not at all exciting, going through the motions type thing, boring at times, just making sure it still works, who can say.
One thing is for sure, I chose to masterbate but afterwards, "Gee, that was a total waste of time, I know this,
I've known this for many years now, very interesting."
Is it psychological or biological that I still do it, who can say, it's no big deal, but it's still worth investigating.

Abstinance is very interesting.
Go without and you will discover many things about yourself.
I chose celibacy for a couple of reasons. What I did not know, as you won't know till you've had the experience,
what I did not know was there is a self under the surface self, and it's worth going through whatever one needs to go through to get to it.

Take pleasure and pain for example.
Beneath the pleasure and pain of the surface is joy and calm.
To me, joy and calm being states of being and not emotions triggered by experiences/circumstances.

In regards to attraction and desire and relationships.
Is one attracted to another or is one simply wanting to feel pleasure.
When you speak of being sexually attracted to someone, are they attracted to the person or the thought they may recieve sexual pleasure from the encounter.
I mean, this is why porn is so effective and popular isn't it.

On my celibacy journey, I began to see the pleasure/pain type surface mechanisms and the deeper self that considers and acts at a different level.
Like, surface self is immature and inner self is wise.
Surface self is 5 sense driven, can only see so far, inner self has a 6th sense that can see far beyond the 5.

This is why I can be attracted and enjoy the beauty of another without desiring them, sexually or otherwise.

My heart can go boom when in the company of a beautiful woman without johnny cyclops doing the same.
The sex drive may be a biological matter, but I, through self awareness, am in control of my whole being.
The phrase," I just couldn't help myself" is spoken by a person who does not know themself.

What started off as a decision of celibacy has ended up being a huge self exploration journey, where awareness of self increases daily and self control is the norm.
Self control being freedom. The freedom to choose one's thoughts and actions regardless of circumstances.
Self control is also self empowerment. No external influences has any say in one's choices.

I am not sexually attracted to another because I simply choose not to be.
Why did I masterbate those couple of times this year? Left my center.
No biggie. It happens and I calmly explore why I chose to leave my center.
Celibacy is but one element of my self discovery journey.
A journey of understanding myself.

Now, if and when I choose to leave the celibate lifestyle and persue a relationship, with what I know now,
sexual issues will not be at the forefront of deciding who I am attracted to.
I am free to imagine what sex would be like with someone I am getting to know, but what's the point of introducing that into the journey.
If our relationship develops, sex will occur.
But if I focus on sex, I have taken my focus away from her inner self.

My son and I, we hang out once a week, have interesting discussions.
One thing that really aggravates him is when I say, "Wow, she is so pretty" when we see a pretty girl.

1: Apparently fathers aren't allowed to say stuff like this to their sons. a social taboo or some such thing.
To which I say to him, we are going from father/son to equals now, just two guys hangin' out.
2: He thinks I'm a dirty old man, as most of these girls aren't my age.

As time went on it slowly dawned on me that he simply can't see a pretty girl without feeling/thinking something sexual.
So when the old man sees a pretty girl he thinks I'm wanting or imagining sex with them.
Considering the context of these incidents we are focusing on physical beauty only.

Within our discussions as I explain to him that I can look at a girl without any sexual desire in mind and that I am simply admiring their beauty,
he literally cannot see it because he cannot see a pretty girl without sex involved.

Depending on the day, I will comment on a girl's a$$ or breasts, specifically to annoy the hell out of him, issa so funny!
When doing this it really dawned on me how much I am not sexually aroused and how impossible it must look to others.
It's so normal for me to be like this that I don't even notice it till someone says something.

Sacred Geometry: The curves of a woman.

If I ever have another relationship, it's going to be a zillion times more beautiful than the last one, and the last one was pretty special.

[Silver]

WoW~

That's gotta be the single most personal intense deep share ever.

My hat's off to you, A/C.

[SeaZen]

WoW~

That's gotta be the single most personal intense deep share ever.

My hat's off to you, A/C.



Ditto! Not only that, but a profound, enlightening and highly informative read. I have become aware of a couple of things about myself that I wasn't aware of before after reading that. Thanks AC!

I was getting ready to follow up on many responses until I read your post. I think this thread needs a moment of silence after your posting AC. So I will wait.

Dont be surprised if you start getting private messages from the womenfolk after that deep share bro!

[Kapitan_Prien]

Like what you said there AC - the curves of a woman. Yep - as beautiful as the curves on a ship. (and that is meant as a compliment)

[LightFilledHeart]

I gotta say - the crockpot analogy made me laugh. Because it's sorta true, but (for me) not in the way that seems to be understood here (that a woman needs loads of time to heat up). Fill up a pot (any pot, male or female) with all the good relationship stuff (love attention sharing being considerate understanding communication and lots of touch and affection) and it'll almost always be ready to boil over with the least amount of heat applied. If you don't have those essential ingredients, and there ain't nothing you can do to make things happen.

As for "helping out" a partner - if one really isn't in the mood, I think it's unfair to be pushy about it. A few moments spent alone can do the same thing and can sometimes be inspiring.

Kaere, OMG, you took the words right out of my mouth!!! I couldn't have said it better :D :D :D

[White Wolf]

Kaere, OMG, you took the words right out of my mouth!!! I couldn't have said it better :D :D :D

Ditto. :wink:

White Wolf

[Mountain-Goat]

Silvergirl][/b]
WoW~

That's gotta be the single most personal intense deep share ever.

My hat's off to you, A/C. ~smiles and bows~ No intention to detract from your response, which I deeply appreciate by the way Silvergirl,
It's just that it doesn't feel like an intense personal share.
I mean I know the subject is taboo in many circles and such, you know, what will the bridge club think, type scenario,
But when I saw SeaZen's question, I instantly saw what I have written and felt quite calm about it and intuitively felt this is meant to be shared.
I big part of being calm about it is the environment.
The people @ SF do create an open and accepting environment to be able to do this.

Ditto! Not only that, but a profound, enlightening and highly informative read. I have become aware of a couple of things about myself that I wasn't aware of before after reading that. Thanks AC!

I was getting ready to follow up on many responses until I read your post. I think this thread needs a moment of silence after your posting AC. So I will wait. Always nice to hear a share has had a positive effect for others.
And, no rush for the other responses SeaZen.
My puta goes offline Monday night and from then on it's once a week net access only.
Once I get to Tazzie mid next week, it may be a couple of weeks before I get online again.
I'm enjoying this discussion and I'm definately meant to be exploring this, so will continue,
just that the responses will be once a week or every second week.
Dont be surprised if you start getting private messages from the womenfolk after that deep share bro! ~laughs~ I've been out of the social loop for 10 years so I honestly have no idea what I've shared which may cause the womenfolk to PM me?
Even if what you said was in jest, I can't see the connection to be able to laugh. ~laughs~

Like what you said there AC - the curves of a woman. Yep - as beautiful as the curves on a ship. (and that is meant as a compliment) And saw it as a compliment Kapitan.
I've been reading snippets about sacred geometry and looking at the lines and forms of nature as opposed to manmade things.
Natural things have a profound beauty to it that humans cannot copy.
Artists come close but structural and technology things are generally harsh, aggressive, rigid and the like.

And lately I have been looking at women and I realised that the female form, to me, is the most beautiful natural form ever.
Thier curves are...sacred. All curves, the naughty bits(haha monty python)lips, eyes, jowl, shoulders, hair, etc
These curves are the physical representation of the sacredness of life.
I could not see this with sex in my head.
And I only came to this description lately because I was fascinated as to why,
without sexual arousal as the reason, why I felt so enraptured by the female form.

[arive nan]

I will miss you during those long couple of weeks AC. I wish you luck with your journey..

[Mountain-Goat]

I will miss you during those long couple of weeks AC. I wish you luck with your journey..
Thanks arvie. It all boils down to how quickly I settle into the new life.
The quicker that's done, the quicker I can get back here.

[Chrysaetos]

I can relate to what you're saying about masturbating AC, it really is a waste of time, but sometimes there's the psychological urge. I've noticed that since I became at peace with it, there are less urges. Fight it, and you'll lose.

As for the thread's question: Physically, I am most attracted to a sweet feminine face.

[SeaZen]

I like giving hand jobs. But I'm not going to be in the mood all the time and would like my guy to respect that as I would respect it if he's not in the mood occasionally (which does happen)..

As for "helping out" a partner - if one really isn't in the mood, I think it's unfair to be pushy about it. A few moments spent alone can do the same thing and can sometimes be inspiring.

Thank you for your input ladies. I do have some questions though. What does "mood" have to do with it? Could you please elaborate on this? I can understand if you are physically exhausted or perhaps the boss yelled at you and you had a bad day or you got into an argument with a family member etc. but under normal circumstances?

Does this mean you have to be in a sexual mood to do this? If so, I beg to differ and would like to offer an example of my own experience.

I used to go out with a nurse a while back. Her job entailed being on her feet all day. When she came back home she would complain about how her feet hurt occasionally. I took it upon myself to take 5 to 10 minutes of my time to give her the most amazing foot massage I could muster. Listening to her "ooooohhh" and "aaaahhhhhhhhh" really inspired me and made me feel good that something so effortless and quick on my part meant so much to her and gave her so much pleasure and relief. She fully understood where I came from when I told her how much I appreciated and desired hand stimulation when feeling horny and she wasn't in the mood for sexual intercourse and happily obliged me. Needless to say, this became a happy regular occurrence for the both of us.

Bottom line is, you don't have to be in a sexual mood to make your partner feel good physically.

Any and all comments are greatly appreciated.

[Kaere]

Of course you don't have to be in a sexual mood to do so. I truly can't imagine that a partner would find it gratifying to know that their partner really wasn't into it and was just helping out from "sympathy" - ho hum aren't you done yet?? What are we - just pieces of foam rubber? If I imply to my partner that I'm feeling keen and he isn't but tries anyway, seriously *ugh* makes me feel like a burden and a piece of meat, humiliated and out of the mood pdq. I'd rather let him know I'm going off on my own and he's welcome to join me if he changes his mind.

[arive nan]

Hand jobs are a very sexual thing. So I at least have to be in a mood where I want to something sexual in order to enjoy it, for one thing, and to not feel resentful for another. In my case, not being in the mood has a lot more to do with my emotional and mental state than my physical state.

Something that prevents me from being in that mood is resentment, for example. Which is the reason why the problem will get worse and worse if I am required to keep performing when not in the mood as if I am nothing more than a sex toy for him. Another thing is if I have other things I'd like to do that night. I sometimes want to actually pay attention to the movie we're watching at home and save the sex until afterwords maybe, instead of missing the whole rest of it because my guy decides he needs sex right then. Sometimes I want to finish reading something or finish writing what I am writing. So if I am required to stop what I am doing in order to provide for his needs while my need to finish what I am doing is ignored, I am not in the mood and the whole time I'm wishing he would just invest in a Realdoll, because I feel like I am nothing more than that to him.

SeaZen, your girlfriend enjoyed giving hand jobs when she wasn't in the mood for sex because she was nevertheless in a mood where she was wanting or willing to do something sexual. And she felt that her needs were being respected and met. I've been like that lots of times, so I know there is a significant difference between happily giving a hand job when not in the mood for intercourse and unhappily giving one when not in the mood for anything at all sexual (which doesn't happen too often when my libido is at it's normal level).

[LightFilledHeart]

Speaking strictly for myself, I would never mechanically satisfy a man without feeling amorous and romantic myself... in other words sharing arousal and emotional intimacy!...nor would I be partnered with a man who expected or desired such behavior from me! That's what prostitutes do. A relationship is something else entirely. If all you want is sexual gratification (i.e., purely a physical release) whether or not your partner is in the same emotional, physical and mental state of arousal as you, then I suggest you effect one of the two following solutions:

1) Hire a professional

2) Take care of it yourself

Problem solved. No muss, no fuss.

[Bellasong]

Well, there's one on his way to Tazzie, but I'm off the market.
And you know the saying, All the good men are either married or gay"
One could add celibate to that. ~laughs~

I know where the good men are Bella. Not where you have been looking so far.
So, change where you look or change the way you see...or both.

That's funny you should say that. Like you know me and how I have met the men I have and where I look. Because I have never really looked for a man. I know most people do, at least at some point in their lives, but I have never done that. They just all happened. I never met any in bars or places like that, never tried. Damn your taken and celibate:confused: That must be one understanding woman you have. I haven't had sex for 3 years because for the last 2 years of my last relationship I wouldn't because he was so abusive and since I have been single, well I can't just have sex to have sex. I only have sex in a relationship and now it has to be a very deeply connected one. But I'm super sexual and I miss it and I don't believe it's healthy to go without it!


Love and Peace,
Bellasong:smile:

[Meep]

What attracts me to my girlfriend is her personality, and how caring she is.

I think people are attracted to those who are similar to themselves. She's so much like me, I think she's a female version of myself.

[Bellasong]

well to know someones personality you have to take the time to get to know them. So I think most men go by looks first. I mean before you spend some quality time with someone all you have to go on is looks. It's just a matter of what look a man prefers.




Love and Peace,
Bellasong:smile:

[Perspective]

Speaking strictly for myself, I would never mechanically satisfy a man without feeling amorous and romantic myself... in other words sharing arousal and emotional intimacy!...nor would I be partnered with a man who expected or desired such behavior from me! That's what prostitutes do. A relationship is something else entirely. If all you want is sexual gratification (i.e., purely a physical release) whether or not your partner is in the same emotional, physical and mental state of arousal as you, then I suggest you effect one of the two following solutions:

1) Hire a professional

2) Take care of it yourself

Problem solved. No muss, no fuss.
I'll ditto that!

[vergbalz]

I believe that not all men are only looking for looks. I really appreciate it when I met this guy who is looking for a god fearing woman, who has great attitude and knows how to care and love. And I believe that that's the real man.

[Mountain-Goat]

I can relate to what you're saying about masturbating AC, it really is a waste of time, but sometimes there's the psychological urge. In the context of all of one's life, yes it's a pointless endeavour.
In the context of termporal pleasure, it's not a waste of time.
And it was during that marriage breakup time that I began to awaken and see the vastness of life, the inner realm,
and how many things done in the outer realm are illogical cycles of self feeding, fleeting and pointless, no progress, no eternalness.

Nothing wrong with desiring and experiencing pleasure, this is one of the joys of a human experience,
but if this is the case then why does heroin usage usually end in premature death?
It's the reasons why one persues pleasure.
The outer life is awash with dysfunctional, destructive thinking patterns, beliefs, etc that are perpetuated because there is pleasure involved.
It's not what one does, but why one does it.

Within my journey I have seen the reasons for why I have done so many things, one offs and repetative things,
and it is always a time of immense wonder to see them and in doing so has without fail, via my responses, created a better life.
I've noticed that since I became at peace with it, there are less urges. Fight it, and you'll lose.
Yep, 'cus when you fight "it", you're actually fighting yourself. Not a peaceful way to live.
It's like, outer self wants to feel pleasure and states it's case why it's a good thing to do.
Inner self knows better and states it's case but outer self refuses because of the pleasure factor.
Inner self says, "Oh there is something better than temporal pleasure, stop doing what you're doing and look, but you will have to stop and look for a while till you see and experience it"
Outer self says, "What, something better than an orgasm...no freakin' way!"
Inner self says, "Trust me, you're missing the best part...come(haha come), come over here and have a good look."
On the journey over, outer self starts to become aware of it's dusfuncional life and then sees what inner self was raving about,
"Oh...I never knew!"
Outer self has experienced calm, peace, silence, the infinite, the eternal.

[Mountain-Goat]

That's funny you should say that. Like you know me and how I have met the men I have and where I look. Because I have never really looked for a man. I know most people do, at least at some point in their lives, but I have never done that. They just all happened. I never met any in bars or places like that, never tried.
Well, it's not like I know you in the way you percieve Bella.
I see snippets of who you are by what you say. There's far more to communication when you stop and look at it.
And also interesting that I was like you, things just happened in my life.
How did I get married, how did I get that job? It's like I was a passenger of my own life.
What happened, happened. If it was a good thing, I was happy. If it was a bad thing, I was sad.
As for relationships, I only has 3 very short ones and one marriage.
The concept of how to seek out a girlfriend was beyond my comprehension.

These last few years, founded on 10-15 years of self exploration, "creating my life" has been steadily growing,
and Tazzie and all it represents is the first major walk in this new realm.

Now the issue of leaving celibacy and finding a girlfriend, girlfriend sounds way better in my heart than partner,
finding a girlfriend is now added to the list, though it is at the bottom. Not of value, just priorities.
I have never done this before, choosing, instead of a girl choosing me.
Damn your taken and celibate:confused: That must be one understanding woman you have.
~smiles~ Ah, no Bella, I do not have a girlfriend...I'm celibate.
My being celibate puts me in the list of "taken" - unavailable, temporarily out of stock.
I haven't had sex for 3 years because for the last 2 years of my last relationship I wouldn't because he was so abusive and since I have been single, well I can't just have sex to have sex. I only have sex in a relationship and now it has to be a very deeply connected one. But I'm super sexual and I miss it and I don't believe it's healthy to go without it!


Love and Peace,
Bellasong:smile:
Same here. I ponder the one night stand and it makes no sense to me because to me, sex is connected with deep relationship.
I can't separate the two.

[Kapitan_Prien]

AC: And saw it as a compliment Kapitan.
I've been reading snippets about sacred geometry and looking at the lines and forms of nature as opposed to manmade things.
Natural things have a profound beauty to it that humans cannot copy.
Artists come close but structural and technology things are generally harsh, aggressive, rigid and the like.

And lately I have been looking at women and I realised that the female form, to me, is the most beautiful natural form ever.
Thier curves are...sacred. All curves, the naughty bits(haha monty python)lips, eyes, jowl, shoulders, hair, etc
These curves are the physical representation of the sacredness of life.
I could not see this with sex in my head.
And I only came to this description lately because I was fascinated as to why,
without sexual arousal as the reason, why I felt so enraptured by the female form.

Yep I agree AC - I thought about the geometry in nature yesterday when I was looking at my seashells - there were Spirals and then in the urchin and sand dollars - Stars.

*smile*

I also agree with LightFilledHeart - I couldn't be involved with a woman if there wasn't any romantic feelings.

[Mountain-Goat]

SeaZen, things I have not or will not respond to will be because I am satisfied with your repsonses and no more discussion is necessary,
or our misunderstanding of each other has been resolved type things.
Or I have addressed it in my masterbation post.
Please bring a thing up if I have missed it and you want to discuss it.

I dont have the lifetime necessary to do this, but it would be interesting. Nevertheless, what does it matter from where or how they all reached their decisions? WHAT DOES IT MATTER?! WHAT DOES IT MATTER!?
~laughs~ Oh now I 'm angry!
Seriously, if I am repetatively doing something that I label as wrong, I need to understand.
I need to see the source, the where, and I need to understand my thoughts and beliefs that are the mechanism for my my actions, the how.
I need to verify all data associated is correct to make a correct decision to make a correct action.

Surveys, to me, are guides not facts.
A survey is a small part of the picture, not the whole picture.
Yes, one can extrapolate, but it's still speculation and within my journey I have found a truth can be reclassified as false just by one more step around a corner.
I have learnt to keep looking well after "others" in a specific context have stopped at what they choose to classify as truth.
First of all, I do think its possible to get to know someone first and to develop sexual feelings later. As far as your point 3 is concerned, if you feel that sex is a possibility later, that means that you have already considered it and approved of it at some point in the very beginning which proves my point 1. Ah, having one thought about sex within a developing relationship is different from sexual attraction as the main reason to be with another.
Actions are preceded by desire, desire is preceded by continuous thought, continuous thought is preceded by one thought.
Each transition is a choice.
If I have one thought about sex but let it go, no sexual action will take place.
But If I choose to continue thinking of sex and add to it, desire is created and the urge to fulfill this desire.
Desire becomes the force that drives.
Initial attraction based on sexual things, a little different.

Exie(for example): I am just beginning to get to know a girl, it's going well.
I do not know what the norm for how many dates one has before kissing is involved, but we are at the first stages of kissing.
We are at a cafe relaxed and enjoying each other's company discussing stuff, chakras, quantum mechanics, the troubled relationship of the couple we see via their body language, the movie we just saw,
what we like about each other, memorable moments from our childhood(painful or pleasurable),
our theories of how those long pointy shoes and huge sunglasses became fashionable, and stuff like that.

As we are sitting, I go inside for a moment and I contemplate how much I like her and how beautiful she is and I visualise our first time of physical intimacy.
The undressing, how smooth her skin is, the warmth and softness of her body... you know the rest.
I look forward to that when it comes, then I turn that thought off and come back to the present moment and continue to enjoy her company without any sexual thoughts whatsoever.

Being "turned on" is a choice isn't it.
Being aroused..any emotion or desire when you take a look at them all, it's all a choice.
But if one cannot see the thinking process that takes place to create the decision to do or be, then one may assume it's built in,
biological, natural, subconscious-can't do anything about it. Whichever way you want to call it.
"You turn me on" is incorrect. A person chooses to turn on according to what they are experiencing.

Will the sexual thought I had in the cafe become the foundation for why I continue the relationship?
Only if I choose to.
It's a given that sex will be part of a relationship(there will be exceptions) but for sex to be the driving attraction of it...that's a personal choice.
As I mentioned in my previous post, that which you quoted from me was an oversimplification based on a 2 person conversation I had outlining a specific situation and addressing a specific situation. There is much more to it than that. I would like to elaborate on those comments to clear things up a bit.

Now as far as points 1 and 2 of my quote, I am talking about a specific situation when one sees (note, that the guy hasnt met her yet) her for the first time (at a party or whatever) and feels a romantic attraction/desire towards her and approaches her with possible romantic intent in mind. Of course this process is all visual at this point. A component of that attraction/desire I believe is sexual. It is one of the many components that drives a male to perceive her in this way that he may not be conscious of that is interwoven with the other components he finds attractive in her . And there's the kicker right there SeaZen, "he may not be conscious of"
Other components that affect a romantic attraction/desire to her may include her smile that melts your heart, her beautiful long brown hair, those eyes that light up a room, the way her legs look in that mini skirt, etc. I do however believe that these other components contribute to the breathless excitement and strong feeling to bond which I call sexual. It doesnt have to be an active erotic visualization of sex with her or an erection or a conscious thought to have sex with her. Sexual is the feeling and vibe as well as the physical act. I do see what you're getting at but as soon as you use "sex" or "sexual" I can only conclude the desired result is physical union.
Neither of us are correct or incorrect in our word usage.
You spoke of "feelings to bond which you call sexual."
Describe this bonding that has nothing to do with physical bonding.
Now the way this manifests in a guy varies with age. AC, Im sure you remember those days as a teen when erections were constant and frequent at the mere sight and romantic thought of a girl. Those early experiences "set the stage" so to speak. Actually...no, I do not because after scanning my memory circuits since the first reading of this post, I never had such experiences.
The only time I got an erection, pre relationship time, was when I discovered porn.
Even when I was in relationships, the only time I got an erection was during intimate moments.
There was never any "I'm aroused so I will have sex."
I am, "I'm in an intimate siutation, time to get aroused."
And porn is entering into an intimate situation, it's just in one's head, not with another person.

~laughs~ Heeey, so is this why I haven't had lots of girlfriends, I wasn't aroused first?
Makes sense, if one is not aroused, one is asleep.
I can joyfully imagine how many girls may have flirted with me and I totally did not see it.
I only say this because of one incident( we were selling stuff at the markets) in my late teens where my female friend said,
"Oh those two girls were very interested in you!"
"What? Really? How can you tell?"
"The way they were smiling and talking to you, getting physically close to you"
"Why would they be interested in me, I mean I wasn't flirting with them, just talking about the items for sale?"
"Oh yes you were, that's why they stayed and kept talking to you."
"Really ? Gee what did I say, I was just talking to them?"
"Oh they were so interested in you!"
"Oh well"

This is what Im talking about and I believe this dynamic changes as we age with less emphasis on the immediate sexual erection and thoughts and more on the other things but I believe the sexual dynamic is still there but in lesser form and not necessarily at the forefront, but its still there. I hope this clears things up a bit. Yes, I understand what you mean now and how you see things.
As far as your above quote in and of itself, I would like to respond in the context of a intimate consensual relationship between 2 consenting adults. Im still not sure what your getting at with your quote above but what you described is loving intimate physical contact and what is sex but loving intimate physical contact. It doesnt have to involve orgasm and sex organs all the time. In that quote of mine though, I was also referring to hand j*** if you can read between the lines. :D
Ah, I cannot read between the lines as there are no words there to read.
I can however, see between the lines and there is infinite space there.
Say what you mean, be direct and there is no need to read between anything.
~laughs~ sex organs. Roy and H.G calls one a bed flute.
And, being a literalist( it is both curse and blessing depending on the context) sex is sex.
Re: HJs. Oral sex, to me, is an incorrrect term, oral pleasure makes sense not oral sex.

But I know, a lot of miscommunication between me and others is both my perception of language and the misuse of it.

NOTE: I'm about to log off from Brizzie this morning. Will continue the discussion a few weeks down the road.

[Mountain-Goat]

Yep I agree AC - I thought about the geometry in nature yesterday when I was looking at my seashells - there were Spirals and then in the urchin and sand dollars - Stars.
A clarification regarding manmade things.
It's not that it's just art pieces that are beautiful, it's when a person's creative soul is put into any object.
This can include architecture and the like.
And of course beauty is a subjective thing.

I find some things look amazing although it's entirely created with straight lines.
Usually color and texture has something to do with this.
But I have noticed most manmade objects I like are straight with a hint of curve or curved with a hint of staight.
Balance of some sort. yin/yang

Regarding what you mentioned, urchins and seashells. That specific sacred geometry.
With a woman's physical features, it's the proportions and radius of curves, the intricate and precise ratios of all of the elements of the body that invokes a strong feeling within me.

Was thinking of a girl I saw a while ago...WOW!
What was it about her that took my breath away?
Curve of eyebrows, shape of eyes, tiny upcurve at end of lips... a million points of reference all combining to what appeals to my perception as perfection.

And of course, the clothes a girl wears.
And I have found. although I prefer less flesh, it appears to me that when a girl is one with her clothes, it expresses who she is.
When you see her clothes, you see her and...ugh, it's really hard to describe.
I've only seen it a few times these last few years.
Not enough experience to figure out what's actually going on.

There's a synergy going on. The girl knows the perfect outfit that matches her soul type thing.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Ah yeah AC well said.

I like what you said about a woman's specific features - I find women who have their hair done up vintage style very attractive. I just like very feminine women.

I agree with the clothing part - I guess that's why I'm more attracted to women who are wearing 'vintage' style clothing. (aside from the fact that that is the period with which I'm familiar).

[Silver]

~smiles and bows~ No intention to detract from your response, which I deeply appreciate by the way Silvergirl,
It's just that it doesn't feel like an intense personal share.
I mean I know the subject is taboo in many circles and such, you know, what will the bridge club think, type scenario,
But when I saw SeaZen's question, I instantly saw what I have written and felt quite calm about it and intuitively felt this is meant to be shared.
I big part of being calm about it is the environment.
The people @ SF do create an open and accepting environment to be able to do this.


Yes, this is a very special forum.
Thanks.
I 'work' here, but many posts, the longer ones especially, I sometimes find hard to slog through.
When I got to the bottom of yours and realized I could not stop reading, and I just found everything you said was so personal and from the heart. Simply amazing.
{Somewhere in this thread, I think, you referenced the movie Mystery Men, and I think that was a very underrated movie. I'm glad somebody else saw it besides me and was impressed enough to quote from it.}

[SeaZen]

Hello All,

I will respond to your posts as I get a chance. This is a very deep heuristic thread that deserves continued discussion. I, however, had political priorities that took precedence in other threads among other things. We have all winter to discuss these very relevant topics (for those of us in the northern hemisphere!)

[John32241]

I believe that not all men are only looking for looks. I really appreciate it when I met this guy who is looking for a god fearing woman, who has great attitude and knows how to care and love. And I believe that that's the real man.

I once met two girls who were twins. The one I liked had a boy friend and was encouraging my interest in her sister. Her sister was not appealing to me. She realized this and told me that "We both have the same body". So what can I say to that comment? ... nothing

After all, I am just a guy who can tell what he likes. Good looks will attract my attention. Good energy will hold my interest. The authentic expression of what I am looking for in a partner will keep me dedicated to their wishes for a lifetime.

Nature is simple and so is life.

John

[spiritfirst]

LOL! Men can't figure women out either!

[LightFilledHeart]

LOL! Men can't figure women out either!

There is a great line in one of my favorite movies, P.S. I Love You, where a male character asks Hillary S w a n k's character what women want. She asks him if he really wants to know and says she'll tell him, but he can't reveal it to anyone, because it's a sacred secret. She motions for him to lean in closer and leans over and whispers in his ear, "We have no idea what we want!!" Haaaaaaaaaaaaa! :D

[happyfool]

I am attracted to womwn who can think for herself(is not a slave to society and peer pressure)....is independent(not needy)

Rest things like beautiful,sence of humor etc..etc comes down the list...

[sound]

I once met two girls who were twins. The one I liked had a boy friend and was encouraging my interest in her sister. Her sister was not appealing to me. She realized this and told me that "We both have the same body". So what can I say to that comment? ... nothing

After all, I am just a guy who can tell what he likes. Good looks will attract my attention. Good energy will hold my interest. The authentic expression of what I am looking for in a partner will keep me dedicated to their wishes for a lifetime.

Nature is simple and so is life.

John
That was nice to read John :)

[Silver]

That was nice to read John :)

I second that motion. Very nice.:smile:

[Cruentus]

Well I geuss I will do the "What I want" list.

1. Strong willed
2. Not rocking the "Im an independent woman" boat. I am independent to a certain degree, but I don't want to feel as though I can be thrown away.
3. Dirty jokes, sexist, racist, whatever we feel like saying can be said.
4. Not someone with a lot of hate.. I don't much care for hate.
5. Cute
6. Similar interests (Writing or video games, or something)

[supernova]

What do I seek in women? When I wanted to marry all I wanted was beauty and I took her sexual side seriously. I thought marrying a beautiful lady is a matter of glory in society and satisfaction in life.

But later on in the course of life my interest has undergone dramatic changes and I seconded beauty and prioritized love, compassion, understanding that enables people to stick together

[Perspective]

Just got this in my email & thought it might shed some (more) light on this subject...
18 Secrets Guys wish you knew...
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/slideshow-18-secrets-guys-wish-you-knew?ecd=wnl_nal_med_111910

Cruentus & Happy Fool - I agree - interdependence (not independence nor codependence) - is ideal.
Supernova - beautiful!

[Roselove]

thank you everyone! i will check out link persepective!

[eraser]

Obviously, I can only speak for "this" man.

I like a woman who's intelligent, with a sense of humour. She would like many different types of music and enjoy living on nature's doorstep in the country. She wouldn't be afraid of her own company and would feel secure enough not to mind when I need a few hours alone (probably fishing). She'd be fine with me cooking most of the meat and fish while she did a side dish or two. She'd be able to say "Yes, dear" once in a while, even if she didn't particularly agree with whatever it was I was talking about at the time.

And if it turned out she enjoyed going fishing, making love and watching baseball (not necessarily in that order or at the same time) -- well, I'd have to pinch myself in case I'd died and gone to heaven. :wink:

[LightFilledHeart]

Obviously, I can only speak for "this" man.

I like a woman who's intelligent, with a sense of humour. She would like many different types of music and enjoy living on nature's doorstep in the country. She wouldn't be afraid of her own company and would feel secure enough not to mind when I need a few hours alone (probably fishing). She'd be fine with me cooking most of the meat and fish while she did a side dish or two. She'd be able to say "Yes, dear" once in a while, even if she didn't particularly agree with whatever it was I was talking about at the time.

And if it turned out she enjoyed going fishing, making love and watching baseball (not necessarily in that order or at the same time) -- well, I'd have to pinch myself in case I'd died and gone to heaven. :wink:

Sounds like a good match, providing you're also willing to say "Yes dear" on occasion. Love and respect are a two way street :D

[Mountain-Goat]

Just got this in my email & thought it might shed some (more) light on this subject...
18 Secrets Guys wish you knew...
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/slideshow-18-secrets-guys-wish-you-knew?ecd=wnl_nal_med_111910 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .webmd.com%252Fsex-relationships%252Fslideshow-18-secrets-guys-wish-you-knew%253Fecd%253Dwnl_nal_med_111910)

Cruentus & Happy Fool - I agree - interdependence (not independence nor codependence) - is ideal.
Supernova - beautiful!

I so disagree with #1, 2, 5, 8, 11,

I agree with #6, but both sexes are like this.
#7 It depends on the relationship between the son and the father.
I am nothing like my father.
I agree with #9 but unawareness is not gender specific.
#10 same goes for both sexes.
~thumbsup~ for #12, 13, 14,15,16
#17 same for both sexes.
#18 communication...yeah baby!

#4
"He really is listening.
When you're listening to someone talk, you probably pipe in with a "yes" or "I see" every now and then. It's your way of saying, "I'm listening." But some guys don't do this. Just because a man isn't saying anything doesn't mean he's not listening. He may prefer to listen quietly and think about what you're saying."


~laughs~ my son does this when we are talking. He stops and waits for an "Uh huh" from me.
~ponders that his son is either a girl or gay ?~ ~laughs~

[ESP_dreamr]

If she is going to be long term material, the one thing above all else is that she has to be a very understanding person.

It is as Philo of Alexandria said:

"Be Kind. For everyone is fighting a hard battle."

[Mountain-Goat]

SeaZen, this topic is not forgotten.
I've been uber busy with physical things down here and I need some serious lengths of time to read and reply in this topic.

Been sorting myself out here and will see if I can get into it this month.
~waves~

[Cletus VanDamme]

i realize all men are different but in general.. lol i can't figure men out!

It's not that hard to figure out. A woman who is attractive, knows how to be sexy, is naturally sexy (which is a seperate quality, and the two are NOT mutually exclusive, but can be complimentary) and is intelligent. Doesn't hold back from speaking her opinion, but is not unnecesarily grumpy. And again, looks are important, at least for most guys. Some women take offense to this, but then they go and watch "Twilight" or drool over some musician or whatever. People need to understand that physical attractiveness is a big part the deal, at least at the beginning.
A woman who is able to hold one's interest in the bedroom. If all she wants is sex once a day, missionary style, she's going to get dumped.



Edited by SF Staff

[Mountain-Goat]

'It\'s not that hard to figure out. A woman who is attractive, knows how to be sexy, is naturally sexy (which is a seperate quality, and the two are NOT mutually exclusive, but can be complimentary) and is intelligent. Doesn\'t hold back from speaking her opinion, but is not unnecesarily grumpy. And again, looks are important, at least for most guys. Some women take offense to this, but then they go and watch \"Twilight\" or drool over some musician or whatever. People need to understand that physical attractiveness is a big part the deal, at least at the beginning. \r\nA woman who is able to hold one\'s interest in the bedroom. If all she wants is sex once a day, missionary style, she\'s going to get dumped.\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\nEdited by SF Staff\r\n \r\n~bemused smile~ Well you\'re definately a catch for the ladies Cletus.'

[Cletus VanDamme]

Duh! But I've already been caught.
Thank you for the bemused smile.
Dook on!

'\r\n \r\n~bemused smile~ Well you\'re definately a catch for the ladies Cletus.'

[NightSpirit]

i realize all men are different but in general.. lol i can't figure men out!

......and you never will! LOL

[Xan]

Right N.S.... Like men trying to "figure out" women.

Instead, how about just connecting with a man... first connecting within yourself and your inner heart. It eliminates a lot of problems.


Xan

[NightSpirit]

Right N.S.... Like men trying to "figure out" women.

Instead, how about just connecting with a man... first connecting within yourself and your inner heart. It eliminates a lot of problems.


Xan

ahh yes good thought Xan :smile: ..i admit i haven't read any of the follow-up posts here, bar the op which attracted my response.

[Favourite Son]

I have not read the 20 pages of this thread, so I apologise if someone else has expressed my thoughts.

As a man, may I say there are different types of attraction to a woman. I am sure it is the same from a womans point of view.

There is pure physical attraction which will last up to a few weeks or months or possibly only the night.
There is an energy attraction which will last whilever the 2 persons energies remain the same. If ones energy changes the attraction will end.
There is a mental attraction, where 2 people seemingly have similar thoughts and dreams.
There is a desperation/" must mate" attraction which will end very quickly.

I am sure there are other types also.

Working out which one you are experiencing is tricky IMO.
It can be even more difficult working out which category your "mate" fits into.

Personally, I think for a relationship to WORK, there has to be physical attraction, a common thought pattern and an energy that combines well( I would have to go far too deep to explain that)

[Kapitan_Prien]

Where it concerns me with that link:

1 - Yes - if you use the 'secret no. 1'.

Men Will Talk About FeelingsWas your guy raised as a traditional, stoic, man's man? If so, let WebMD walk you through 18 relationship secrets, gathered from psychologists who study gender roles. Secret No. 1: It may be easier for your man to talk about feelings indirectly. Ask what he'd do during a romantic weekend. Or what he thought the first time he met you. His answers will reveal how he feels and bring you closer.


2 - Yes (this is a big definite)



Men Say "I Love You" With Actions
Some men prefer to express their feelings through actions rather than words. Your guy may say "I love you" by fixing things around the house, tidying up the yard, or even taking out the trash -- anything that makes your world a better place.


3 - Yes (bold for emphasis)



Men Take Commitment Seriously
Men have a reputation for being afraid to commit. But the evidence suggests men take marriage seriously. They may take longer to commit because they want to make sure they are onboard for good. In a survey of currently married men, 90% say they would marry the same woman again.


4 - Yes (bold part is definitely me)


He Really Is Listening
When you're listening to someone talk, you probably pipe in with a "yes" or "I see" every now and then. It's your way of saying, "I'm listening." But some guys don't do this. Just because a man isn't saying anything doesn't mean he's not listening. He may prefer to listen quietly and think about what you're saying.


5 - Yes - definitely me


Shared Activities Form Bonds
Men strengthen their relationships primarily through shared activities more than by sharing thoughts or feelings. For many men, activities like sports and sex make them feel closer to their partner.

6 - To an extent - yes.

Men Need Time for ThemselvesWhile shared activities are important, men also need time for themselves. Whether your guy enjoys golf, gardening, or working out at the gym, encourage him to pursue his hobbies, while you make time for your own. When both partners have space to nurture their individuality, they have more to give to each other.


7 - N/A


Men Learn From Their Fathers
If you want to know how a man will act in a relationship, get to know his dad. Some say men learn about their relationship role by watching and listening to their fathers. How they are with each other and how the father relates to the mother can predict how a man will relate to his wife.


8 - To an extent yes.


Men Let Go Faster Than Women
Women tend to remember negative experiences longer and may have lingering feelings of stress, anxiety, or sadness. In contrast, men are less likely to dwell on unpleasant events and tend to move on more quickly. So while you may still want to talk about last night's argument, your guy may have already forgotten about it.


9 - Yes - be direct. (While I don't follow horoscope/astrology stuff - who knows, perhaps it is the Capricorn in me as well.)



Men Don't Pick Up on Subtle Cues
Men are more likely to miss subtle signals like tone of voice or facial expressions. And they are especially likely to miss sadness on a woman's face. If you want to make sure your guy gets the message, be direct.

10 - Definitely!

Men Respond to AppreciationShowing appreciation for your guy can make a big difference in the way he acts. Take parenting. Studies show that fathers are more involved in care-giving when their wives value their involvement and see them as competent.


11 - Somewhat (depends on how I feel...physically, mentally...)


Men Think About Sex ... A Lot
OK, so maybe this one is no secret. The majority of men under age 60 think about sex at least once a day, compared with only a quarter of women. And that's not all. Men fantasize about sex nearly twice as often as women do, and their fantasies are much more varied. They also think more about casual sex than women do. But thinking is not the same as doing.


12 - Yes.


Men Find Sex Significant
It's a myth that most men think sex is just sex. For many, sex is a very important act between two committed people. And just like most women, men find sexual intimacy to be most satisfying in the context of a committed relationship. One reason is that long-term partners know how to please one another better than strangers do.


13 - Yes.


He Likes It When You Initiate Sex
Most guys feel as though they're the ones who always initiate sex. But they also like to be pursued and wish their partner would take the lead more often. Don't be shy about letting your guy know you're in the mood. Initiating sex some of the time may lead to a higher level of satisfaction for both of you.

14 - Very true for me.

Guys Aren't Always Up for SexMen, much to many women's surprise, aren't always in the mood for sex. Just like women, men are often stressed by the demands of work, family, and paying the bills. And stress is a big libido crusher. When a guy says, "not tonight," it doesn't mean he's lost interest in you. He just means he doesn't want to have sex right then.


15 - Very much so.


Men Like Pleasing Their Partner
Your pleasure is important to your man. But he won't know what you want unless you tell him. Too many women feel uncomfortable talking about what they like and don't like. If you can tell him clearly in a way that doesn't bruise his ego, he'll listen. Because he knows he'll feel good if you feel good.


16 - Yes (thanks to the CFS:rolleyes:)


Guys Get Performance Anxiety
Most men get performance anxiety on occasion, especially as they age. Your guy may worry about his physique, technique, and stamina. If you can help him learn to relax and stay focused on the pleasures of the moment, sex will become less stressful.


17 - Yes.


Men May Stray When Needs Aren't Met
If a man doesn't feel loved and appreciated in his relationship, he may turn elsewhere for satisfaction. For one man, that may mean burying himself in work. Another may develop a fixation on sports or video games. And some men cheat. To avoid this, partners need to work together to meet each other's needs.


18 - Yes.


He's Vested in You
Most men realize there's a lot to lose if a long-term relationship goes sour – not just each other's company, but the entire life you've built together. If you're willing to work to strengthen your marriage, chances are your man will be, too.

[Perspective]

Alternate Carpark -
Kapitan Prien -
Thanks for sharing your perspective about the WebMD article.

I love quotes...
*To attract men, I wear a perfume called ‘New Car Interior’.
*Men who don’t understand women fall into two groups: Bachelors and Husbands.
*Women like silent men. They think they're listening.

[Silver]

Alternate Carpark -
Kapitan Prien -
Thanks for sharing your perspective about the WebMD article.

I love quotes...
*To attract men, I wear a perfume called ‘New Car Interior’.
*Men who don’t understand women fall into two groups: Bachelors and Husbands.
*Women like silent men. They think they're listening.

:D<>><>>><>>>

[Kapitan_Prien]

The 'New Car Interior' certainly wouldn't attract me in the least... I don't care for cars, nor do I own one.

Try Vanilla or Rose (the real thing)...to get my attention.

[NightSpirit]

LOL Silvergirl and Kapitan Prien

[Kapitan_Prien]

I can't think of how 'New Car Interior' would be relaxing, calming, and work as an aphrodisiac scent.

I'm an old fashioned romantic. I don't fit the stereotype of guy = car, sports, bars, blue jeans, baseball caps, etc.

[Uma]

For what it's worth, after 22 years of marriage, I think, at least as far as "what men want" I think Freud was right!

[NightSpirit]

For what it's worth, after 22 years of marriage, I think, at least as far as "what men want" I think Freud was right!

Ehh dare I ask you Uma? No, better not to go there :D

[Kapitan_Prien]

I'm inclined to think that Freud was a very 'base' man - because that doesn't describe me either.

I think I'm too old for much of this...

[NightSpirit]

I'm inclined to think that Freud was a very 'base' man - because that doesn't describe me either.

I think I'm too old for much of this...

aww...is it about age or outlook? :hug3:

[Kapitan_Prien]

*laughs* ...age. *wink*

[NightSpirit]

LOL...when it comes to freud..well he was just too 'way out there!'

But my comment was meant to be in general :-)

[Kapitan_Prien]

Yep - I agree. People like that have too much time, so they think too much...when they need to just start living.

[Perspective]

The 'New Car Interior' certainly wouldn't attract me in the least... I don't care for cars, nor do I own one.

Try Vanilla or Rose (the real thing)...to get my attention....or maybe "Old Model Ship" or "Old Model Airplane" perfume (the real thing).
That'll get your attention, right? :wink: :D

[glenos]

Kap., if you want the real deal vanilla or rose get your cheque book out and get Guerlains Spiritueuse Double Vanille and Le Labos Rose 31. Both unisex frags, very expensive but wonderful.

Heaven in bottles. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh

G.

[Uma]

From the film MOONSTRUCK:


Rose (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001156/): Why do men chase women?
Johnny (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000732/): Well, there's a Bible story... God... God took a rib from Adam and made Eve. Now maybe men chase women to get the rib back. When God took the rib, he left a big hole there, where there used to be something. And the women have that. Now maybe, just maybe, a man isn't complete as a man without a woman.
Rose (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001156/): [frustrated] But why would a man need more than one woman?
Johnny (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000732/): I don't know. Maybe because he fears death.
[Rose looks up, eyes wide, suspicions confirmed]
Rose (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001156/): That's it! That's the reason!
Johnny (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000732/): I don't know...
Rose (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001156/): No! That's it! Thank you! Thank you for answering my question!

[supernova]

I am very fascinated by the story that Eve was Adam's rib and when God took the rib a hole left in her body and maybe that was the reason why women have holes between their two legs. And that may may be the reason men want to fill the hole and that is why sex happens.

Mythological stories speak a lot about human behaviors. I have read some of the great mythologies and in Hinduism there are so many such mythological tales that speak so much of human nature, love and the like.

[Lynn]

Hello


ONE that is not CLINGY like plastic wrap. One that trusts and respects the need at times for personal space and independent frineds.


Lynn

[Silver]

From the film MOONSTRUCK:


Rose (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2F nm0001156%2F): Why do men chase women?
Johnny (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2F nm0000732%2F): Well, there's a Bible story... God... God took a rib from Adam and made Eve. Now maybe men chase women to get the rib back. When God took the rib, he left a big hole there, where there used to be something. And the women have that. Now maybe, just maybe, a man isn't complete as a man without a woman.
Rose (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2F nm0001156%2F): [frustrated] But why would a man need more than one woman?
Johnny (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2F nm0000732%2F): I don't know. Maybe because he fears death.
[Rose looks up, eyes wide, suspicions confirmed]
Rose (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2F nm0001156%2F): That's it! That's the reason!
Johnny (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2F nm0000732%2F): I don't know...
Rose (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2F nm0001156%2F): No! That's it! Thank you! Thank you for answering my question!


Thanks for sharing that. I saw that movie when it first came out, but of course no recollection of this part. It's beautiful.

[NightSpirit]

I am very fascinated by the story that Eve was Adam's rib and when God took the rib a hole left in her body and maybe that was the reason why women have holes between their two legs. And that may may be the reason men want to fill the hole and that is why sex happens.

Mythological stories speak a lot about human behaviors. I have read some of the great mythologies and in Hinduism there are so many such mythological tales that speak so much of human nature, love and the like.

For a start....God took the rib from Adam which left a hole in him..not Eve. You have a one-track mind supernova.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Re Perspective: No not really. I like very feminine women - so the traditional 'rose' or 'vanilla' scent is perfect.

Re Glenos: Ah the same company that made the Shalimar (1925) - that a woman from Hamburg whom I dated had worn. It figures...:rolleyes: :wink:

[Silver]

ONE the (that) is not CLINGY like plastic wrap. One that trusts and respects the need at times for personal space and independent frineds.



Thanks for that, Lynn. I read it last night, but this morning, it 'kicked in' ~ how important the meaning is to me and my personal experiences.

My b/f from eons ago well we loved each other very much, BUT he didn't like my friends, NOR did he like that I even HAD friends! I'm sure many know the type...One evening, I went somewhere with a friend, and I had TOLD HIM beforehand, like the day before of my plans that evening. Well, my friend was on her way to drop me back off home, when a cop pulled us over and questioned us briefly, then went home. He had called the cops to be looking for me! Argh! There are other tales about this couple from the past, but suffice it to say, it's nice to be claimed, it's another to be chained.

[Lynn]

Thanks for that, Lynn. I read it last night, but this morning, it 'kicked in' ~ how important the meaning is to me and my personal experiences.

My b/f from eons ago well we loved each other very much, BUT he didn't like my friends, NOR did he like that I even HAD friends! I'm sure many know the type...One evening, I went somewhere with a friend, and I had TOLD HIM beforehand, like the day before of my plans that evening. Well, my friend was on her way to drop me back off home, when a cop pulled us over and questioned us briefly, then went home. He had called the cops to be looking for me! Argh! There are other tales about this couple from the past, but suffice it to say, it's nice to be claimed, it's another to be chained.


Hello

I went in LOL and corrected "the" to " that" was very late last night when I put THAT there lol.

I so feel the main reason might well be that so many relationships fail as WE do not see that we are indepentdent beings. YES we choose a mate but we are NOT that mate. We have our lives too.

Like woman do not want a man to cling to them ( well most I hope ) men too ( most I hope ) do not want the same in a woman.

When I asked me mate (of 29 years the ONLY one I have been with or even dated ) what he saw in me.....

He said WHO I COULD BECOME . He saw me hiding the inner and outter beauty I was, and that I would maybe make a good WIFE .

What he now has with me and me with him is three kids and a good home. I use me Web Cam for the first time yesterday with a good "male " friend on line....he ( me mate ) thought that was so COOL we had that feature to connect. NO jeleousy said he was so happy that I finally had someone to talk about deep spiritual things with. That GOT whom I am.

TRUST is key to any successful relatonship. Anyone can be in LOVe but trust is the foundation that holds the structure up.


Lynn

[Silver]

What he now has with me and me with him is three kids and a good home. I use me Web Cam for the first time yesterday with a good "male " friend on line....he ( me mate ) thought that was so COOL we had that feature to connect. NO jeleousy said he was so happy that I finally had someone to talk about deep spiritual things with. That GOT whom I am.

TRUST is key to any successful relatonship. Anyone can be in LOVe but trust is the foundation that holds the structure up.



You sound like a very lucky pair, Lynn.
You're truly blessed~
http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-h.png

[Perspective]

Re Perspective: No not really. I like very feminine women - so the traditional 'rose' or 'vanilla' scent is perfect. Hmm... from the look at your blog, I'm not sure I believe you. ha ha But I was just kidding. :D

Uma - I also liked that scene you posted.
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense! :)

[Kapitan_Prien]

I know Perspective :)

[black wolf]

femininity,beauty,youthfullness,inteligence,humour cleanliness,does it for me

[Silver]

femininity,beauty,youthfullness,inteligence,humour cleanliness,does it for me

sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but when a woman's youthfullness is gone, then discard for a 'newer model'?

[Silver]

Oh, yeah, I forgot, women generally live longer than men ~ I guess it should be allowed, LOL.
:tongue: :wink:

[NightSpirit]

sorry to be a fly in the ointment, but when a woman's youthfullness is gone, then discard for a 'newer model'?

**chuckling**.....wondering what blackwolf's redeeming features are? :D

[Neville]

I answered this question before the forum crashed but I'll repeat again here.
I am really drawn to a a fully formed voluptuous intellect in a woman.

[GoldenBoy72]

Perfect Face, like good symmetry nice lips and everything. Strong lean legs nice larger butt and good clear, tan color skin. Oh yeah nice teeth feet and hands.

After Im done judging her physical appearance, some book smarts and some compassion are nice. Also a completely honest woman can draw me in everytime.

[Deusdrum]

pretty much everything.

Eyes. Legs. Bum. Way they move. Whole style. Realness, honesty of emotion, silliness and playfulness.

I honestly don't understand how much i love women, and quite seriously would go crazy if i dwelt upon it too deeply i think. Painfully attracted to women. A good pain. Sometimes i feel guilty or shameful or something for how much i love women, other times i just bask in the glow of your beauty.

A kind heart. Woman who can speak her mind, but be sensitive enough not to make it cutting. I'm attracted to all kinds of women, in all kinds of ways. Boobies are nice, but not so much a necessity for me.

I love women infinity. ~

[supernova]

All I want in women is their unmasked self. Women draped in arrogance to hide her ugliness is repulsive to me.

I may like an ugly women and will look very lovey to me in the run but the one who fakes her is vile

I want her like a bare mountain but fertile so that I can sow the seeds of live in her fertile earth!

My imagination can grow their into a beautiful orchard and Iwill be the sower and repaer at the same time.

[Tom]

I love a woman who is funny, intelligent, and sensitive. I find a woman very attractive who takes care of herself, but isn't afraid to step out in sweats and just be cozy. In other words someone who can pull her hair back in a ponytail and just go. That to me suggests confidence. I'm not into those who look like they spend an hour in front of the mirror putting on more makeup and hair spray than KISS. Never have figured out who they "think" their kidding. Its all about being comfortable in your own skin. And however God made you, well that's just fine with me. 'Perfection' is a myth fed by those who have low self esteem. Be yourself. You find your best matches that way. :wink:

[Kapitan_Prien]

I've changed quite a bit since I last posted a response here...

So I will amend my answer -

I like a woman who is 'traditional' as in very feminine (long hair, a small amount of make up to accent her natural beauty, lace, silk seamed stockings...)

I like a woman who isn't (or who doesn't) think that taking on what were once 'traditional' female roles is sexist or subversive to women.

A woman who is willing to help nurture.

A woman who isn't afraid of using a gun.

A woman who embraces her 'masculine' energy in a positive way.

A woman who loves to go out and have 'mature'/'responsible' fun.

Other attributes: mature, intelligent, understanding, sensitive, kind, caring, compassionate...down to earth yet 'spiritually aware', have common sense...

It is also good that our interests are shared to an extent.

[Kapitan_Prien]

I had just thought of something...

...she can't be the type to look down upon me because I'm not what some would call 'book smart'.

I've noticed that because I don't spout lofty zen like quotes from gurus and other folks like Tolle...that some don't seem to take me seriously. She has to be opposite of that.

[Mountain-Goat]

SeaZen reply Part 1

SeaZen, I'm starting from scratch....I don't know why.
~he ponders~
I see that it's after reading all the pages, it just looks messy to me and I found it difficult to find a place to begin.
Some things are readdressed and some addressed for the first time.
I on the other hand, am currently not wearing a dress.
This dressless state I am currently in is usually how I riggedy roll, and is attributed to the fact that I am a guy
and I only wore a dress once...maybe twice...in the wacky days of my youth.
And in this way, you and I don't have to go searching thru the thread, it's now all in one updated post. EDIT : Three posts
In kind, respond to only the things you want to. Dresses optional. "Options are optional !" - Sarge, from Red V Blue. ~laughs~
Scientific studies have shown that most (not all) men are visually stimulated.
For me, visually stimulated does not equal sexually stimulated, does it for you?
I dont see anywhere in my post where I said that men can or prefer to have sex without getting to know the person.
These two point in that direction.
The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually.
Many guys (and women) assess sexual potential visually before proceeding with the get to know you phase.
Indeed they do! But the physical sex drive is an undeniable fact that will manifest itself somehow someway.
For the person who has limited self awareness/self control, their sex drive will manifest somehow.
For the person who has hightened self awareness/self control, their sex drive manifests solely by choice.
Yes, and culture needs to be taken into account as well. These studies I mentioned are western civilizational studies. But when you strip away all the ** religious and cultural walls, what you have left is desire.
And when one "strips away" their desires, one finds one has chosen to desire.
Desire is the not the base level of human behaviour. Desire is the effect generated from the level that lies deeper than desire.
If I were to persue a relationship, sex is on the bottom of the list.
It's on the list, but the desire mechanism is not activated.
First on the list is the desire to know her soul.
Closeness is intimacy. I desire for our souls to be intimate.
As this develops, physical closeness develops... holding hands, a kiss, then sex.
Soul intimacy first for me.
What you are describing is a highly conscious process on your part. There are many mechanisms involved when one is romantically attracted to someone conscious and subconcious. How are you so certain that there is not some, oh so subtle subconsious sexual feeling/vibe/attraction undercurrent flowing through your being that is underlying your appreciation of her beauty, soul etc? If we really truly knew every subtle mechanism that drives attraction and desire, we would be much more highly evolved in that arena as individuals and as a species. Anyone who claims that they reached the pinnacle of evolution and awareness in these matter is either a liar or unaware or both (just making a general statement here and not implicating you).
What you are describing is a highly conscious process on your part.
Yes it is, comparatively speaking. But not that high that one cannot reach it.
In fact, it's only a couple of paradigm steps up, or in, to be precise.
There are many mechanisms involved when one is romantically attracted to someone conscious and subconcious.
There may be many mechanisms, but there is only one in control of them.
Increase self awareness and the multitude of mechanisms reveal themselves, as does the realisation that self has total control of them.
From my current position, there is no such place as a conscious and subconscious within one's being.
There is only one consciousness, and in that state some things are seen and some unseen.
The more one increases their self awareness the more these "hidden" mechanisms come to light.

To clarify, these "things" do not come, or go anywhere. They are incapable of movement.
They are always in direct sight of self, but self's awareness is not fully functional, so there are areas one cannot yet see, giving the impression things are hidden.
The unseen become seen through illumination from one's own light via the increase in awareness/insight/enlightenment/whichever way you choose to call it.
To create a realm called 'Subconscious' infers that whatever is in this place can never be brought to one's conscious.
My experiences these last 10ish years says otherwise.
How are you so certain that there is not some, oh so subtle subconsious sexual feeling/vibe/attraction undercurrent flowing through your being that is underlying your appreciation of her beauty, soul etc?
I can only be certain of what I am aware of and I am currently aware of when I am sexually aroused/motivated/stimulated, and/or when I have sexual desire or feelings.

Case in point:
An experiment I did a few months back up in Brizzie.( I do these self tests regularly, on all manner of issues)
I was walking thru the mall, basking in the physical beauty of a girl who was walking in front of me.
I never got to see her face but what I found beautiful about her was the clothes she wore, her hair, the proportion of her curves,
the rhythm and flow of her walk and the relaxed state of her arms and hands, the slight curl of her fingertips,
the delicate way her feet touched the ground.

Anyways, I decided to imagine what she looked like beneath her clothes. I did...and channeling Lester Burnam I internally said, "Spectacular!"
I then imagined we were lovers and we were engaged in foreplay, timeless gentle sensual marvelling of each other's bodies.
I then turned off all those thoughts and checked myself as I continued on my way to procuring some high quality Self Sealing Stembolts.
Not a single sexual arousal - physical, emotional or mental. No desire had manifested.

So, from self tests like these, I am confident that I know when I have oh so subtle subconsious sexual feeling/vibe/attraction undercurrents flowing through my being.
If we really truly knew every subtle mechanism that drives attraction and desire, we would be much more highly evolved in that arena as individuals and as a species.
Is that not what humanity is doing...evolving. Yet this specific type of evolution is not some universal mechanism that effects all creatures without their sayso.
Naay ! This evolution is individualised, in that a person chooses to evolve. And why is there a horse in this thread?
Age may mature the body, but it doesn't mature the soul/psyche.
There may be an automatic mechanism in place that causes a person to physically grow, but internal growth is achieved by choosing to make it so.

"Make it so Number 2 ! Warp eleventee hundred ! Engage !"
"Begging the Captain's pardon but the Enterprise has no warp eleventee hundred, she only goes up to 9 sir."
For the zillionth time, upon standing up, Captain Pickard once again tugs down on his shirt to pull out the creases.
"Number 2, I am well aware of the Enterprise's capabilities and that she only goes up to 9, and that's what I said, warp eleventee hundred."
Everyone on the bridge is now staring at the Captain.
"Captain, you just said it again, you said, warp eleventee hundred."
Captain pickard considers this and, frustrated but defiantly shaking a fist in the air, shouts, "Damn you space anomaly!"
"Number 2, just get us to Bloodgulch Outpost #1 as soon as possible, I shall be in my compost bin."
"Captain, by compost bin, you mean Ready Room?"
The Captain sighs. "Just make it so, Number 2...just...make it so."

~laughs~ One of the funniest things about STNG is the head thingy that Commander Ryker does.
Everytime Ryker walks out of shot or a room, etc, he tilts his head in the direction he wants to go in. Issa so funny.
I don't know if it's a Jonathan Frakes quirk or part of Commander Ryker's character but he does it everytime.
Or, Ryker is a horse and Frakes is pulling on the reigns to make him move left or right.
"Whoa there Ryker, easy boy, easy. Ok, hi ho Ryker awaaaayyyy"...to the music of some iconic american cowboy to which the name escapes me at the moment.
Sometimes he tilts his head so far that I can't contain myself and I burst out laughing so hard.

How come Counsellor Troi never picked up on this bizzare behaviour. Maybe, it's what makes Ryker so attractive to the ladies.
And after all, Ryker and Troi do eventually get married.

~he ponders~
I think when it's time to find a girlfriend I'm going to develop some quirks and try them out.
My theory is, if the male Bird of Paradise can jump around like an absolute looney, and this guarantees him a girlfriend, then it might work for teh humanses.

This highly conscious process you speak of is simply self control via self awareness, but you have missed a vital element SeaZen.
You said mechanisms drive attraction and desire, but what about the Self that operates the mechanisms?
Anyone who claims that they reached the pinnacle of evolution and awareness in these matter is either a liar or unaware or both (just making a general statement here and not implicating you).
Well, considering this initial comment...
What you are describing is a highly conscious process on your part.
~smiles~ I must conclude you are referring to me and I calculate one reason why you diplomatically accuse me of being either a liar or unaware or both is because you believe
that what I have achieved is the pinnacle of evolution and awareness and, that this lofty height is unreachable in the span of one lifetime.

I just checked my journals and this so called pinnacle was achieved in 15 years, and from my current position, I know it's not the pinnacle. I have a long ways to go still.
To make an uneducated guess, I'd say I have only just touched the tip of a vast iceburg...with the tip of my fingernail.
First of all, let me explain to you the nature of guys. We are visually and sexually stimulated when we first see a desirable woman. In other words our first thought and impulse when we first see a woman we desire is "wow, it would be great to have sex with her!". So we go with it that impulse and chat her up.
As the evening moves forward we come down to earth from our base impulse and realize, hey, this is about more than just the sex, she wants a relationship as well so we then try to determine if this is someone we want for more than just sex i.e. a relationship. There are 2 possible answers to this
1) "Yes we would love to have sex with you but no we do not wish to pursue a relationship with you".
2) "Yes we would love to have sex with you AND pursue a relationship with you"
Why is there not option 3?
3)"Yes we would love to persue a relationship with you AND eventually, sex will be a part of that relationship"
Which came first, desire or visual and sexual stimulation?
I mean can a woman be classified as desirable before one is visually and/or sexually stimulated?

If the woman is seeking a relationship, I doubt there would be any "as the evening moves forward" chatting up if the guy's motive for interaction was, "wow, it would be great to have sex with her!"
This can be tested by verbalising one's desire/intention.
"Hi, my name's John and it would be great to have sex with you."
I doubt this would be a highly successful opening move toward a long term relationship, let alone a one night stand.

Yet this actually is the opening move established inside the guy.
And if a woman is confident of her intuitive abilities and is clear headed ie her desires aren't clouding her sight, she will see this. He doesn't need to verbalise for her to know his motives.

You said, upon the guy coming down from his sexual desire high, "hey, this is about more than just the sex, she wants a relationship as well so we then try to determine if this is someone we want for more than just sex i.e. a relationship.

Considering...look before I get into that I need to address this "we" thing here again.
You're describing a one on one interaction between a guy and a girl, yes?
You have a girl, referenced as "a desirable woman", "a woman", "with her", "she" etc, but then there is no guy, there's only guys, referenced as "our", "we."
What's with that SeaZen?

Considering that "as well" is not referring to the guy's desire for relationship because he only begins thinking of a relationship after coming down from his sexual desire high.
The guy's moment of Zen of "as well" refers to his realisation that the woman is desiring more that just sex.

How did he not see this before?
1: Blinded in the clouds of sexual desire to notice.
2: Thinking that if he is sexually motivated in regards to interactions, so is everyone else, ie; "she".

Speaking of, moments of Zen. Here in Tazzie I have the pleasure of seeing for the first time, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
I always look forward to the end of the show's, Moment of Zen.

So, the issue is the guy being in the sexual desire clouds and how it affects his relationships.
His attempts at forming one, or creating a solid foundation for one to grow in.

Some scenarios.

A guy's on a first date type scenario, or met at a party and they're chatting, getting to know each other, it's going well, they both enjoy each other's company.
She asks what he's thinking about.
"Oh, just how awesome it would be to have sex with you."
"So, all this time of chatting, all you've been thinking about is sex? Is this all I am to you?"

A guy's been in a relationship for a few years. It's great.
His mate asks what's so great about it.
"The sex !" is his initial response. He didn't even have to think about it.
He has to think a bit to come up with more reasons, but after he does, he refers back to how awesome the sex is.

A guy and his wife are in their 40's. He leaves her for a younger woman because the younger one is way more sexually attractive/stimulating.

In all these scenarios, the guy hadn't left his sexual desire high, or he has become addicted to it.
Sexual desire and fulfillment was always at the top of the list.

Before the Pill, sex was primarily the domain of committed relationships ie marriage and that was because(one reason) sex was accompanied by a high potential of producing children.
Now, anyone can have sex just for the pleasure aspect of it.
No mucking about with lengthy courting rituals and one partner commitments.

Back in the old days, you got to know someone first, became deeply in love with them, then you had sex...once married.
Now it's sex first then relationship later...maybe...if the sex was awesome.
Notice how sex/sexuality is being promoted and advertised as if it's the most important thing ever.

Sex is awesome, but it's not on the top of my list at any time during a relationship, except when it's time to have sex.
First of all, I do think its possible to get to know someone first and to develop sexual feelings later.
Which is it for you and for these "most guys" you speak for, a reality or a future possibility?
As far as your point 3 is concerned, if you feel that sex is a possibility later, that means that you have already considered it and approved of it at some point in the very beginning which proves my point 1.
Considered yes, sexual high desire, no.
The consideration is not a continuous flow of thought and desire that influences the relationship or attempt thereof.
There is no need to think of sex happening in the future. If the relationship blossoms, sex will happen.
If the relationship dies, there is no sexual frustration/unfulfilled sexual desire to deal with.

Now as far as points 1 and 2 of my quote, I am talking about a specific situation when one sees (note, that the guy hasnt met her yet) her for the first time (at a party or whatever) and feels a romantic attraction/desire towards her and approaches her with possible romantic intent in mind.
In the context of your quote, what does your definition of romantic consist of?
Of course this process is all visual at this point.
So this guy can't hear and has no sense of smell and, can't pick up the energy signals from others?
I only ask because these senses are just as busy, and influential as sight when it comes to attraction.
A component of that attraction/desire I believe is sexual. It is one of the many components that drives a male to perceive her in this way that he may not be conscious of that is interwoven with the other components he finds attractive in her.
Apart from belief, how do you know sexual desire is a component if you are not conscious of it being so?
Other components that affect a romantic attraction/desire to her may include her smile that melts your heart, her beautiful long brown hair, those eyes that light up a room, the way her legs look in that mini skirt, etc. I do however believe that these other components contribute to the breathless excitement and strong feeling to bond which I call sexual. It doesnt have to be an active erotic visualization of sex with her or an erection or a conscious thought to have sex with her. Sexual is the feeling and vibe as well as the physical act.
Well, sex is the act, not sexual. But I'm intrigued by this sexual feeling and vibe. Please elaborate on it and...
What produces the feeling and vibe and what is the difference of the two?
What signs are there to determine if one is feeling/vibrating sexually?
Now the way this manifests in a guy varies with age. AC, Im sure you remember those days as a teen when erections were constant and frequent at the mere sight and romantic thought of a girl. Those early experiences "set the stage" so to speak. This is what Im talking about and I believe this dynamic changes as we age with less emphasis on the immediate sexual erection and thoughts and more on the other things but I believe the sexual dynamic is still there but in lesser form and not necessarily at the forefront, but its still there. I hope this clears things up a bit.
~smiles~ Not at all, though I am enjoying the journey. What do you base your beliefs of this on?
As for the "constant and frequent erections at the mere sight and romantic thought of a girl"...I still laugh at this.
I always thought this was an exaggerated joke. Are you saying there are guys who are/were like this in their youth?

Also, notice how you said "sight and romantic thought" and not, sight or romantic thought.
This implies it's not sight alone that creates desire, but the romantic thoughts, which then makes me consider choice is the issue.

And though I await your definition of "romantic", you aren't substituting 'romantic' for 'sexual' are you?
Im not sure what you are getting at here in regards to our statments and the quote above but I will take a stab at it. Your quote mentioned motivated/stimulated my quote mentioned lovingly communicated to. Big difference.
Here's the quote and my response in question.
The number one way most guys like for women to lovingly communicate and reach out to us is sexually. It doesnt have to always be intercourse. It can be as simple as a loving embrace and massage with your hand on a certain body part as you tell us how much you love make us happy this way etc. etc.
A loving embrace and massage is sexual?
Is this how you interpret physical contact?
To me, this is what I see...you state, #1 communication and reaching out to guys is sexually.
Doesn't have to be intercourse, it can be embrace, massage..so I stand by my initial reply.

But this bit is quite interesting, "the above mentioned actions tell(s) us how much you love (to) make us happy..."
HUH ? Have I read this correctly SeaZen?
As far as your above quote in and of itself, I would like to respond in the context of a intimate consensual relationship between 2 consenting adults. Im still not sure what your getting at with your quote above but what you described is loving intimate physical contact and what is sex but loving intimate physical contact. It doesnt have to involve orgasm and sex organs all the time. In that quote of mine though, I was also referring to hand j*** if you can read between the lines.
First off, the context was attraction. Then it went to romantic attraction without stating it had, and now it's gone to consensual relationship, again, without stating it had.

Secondly, even in a consensual relationship, one can recieve an embrace and massage without being sexually aroused, or for the giver of these things intending it to be sexual.

Thirdly, I choose not to read between the lines, a phrase which means I am to assume what is implied but not expressed.
If you want a person to understand what you mean, say what you mean because you have no idea what a person can assume.

Fourthly, what has any of this got to do with what a guy finds attractive in a girl?
Unless you are attracted to women who love to make a guy happy by massaging certain body parts.


Wait...bin all that, well, most of it. I just noticed something. I do miss the little things often.
It can be as simple as a loving embrace and massage with your hand on a...
I missed the 'and'...read it as an 'or.'
So, even though that was a fun tributary to explore, we are back to the main stream, and that being sexual is how to get a guy's attention.
And the topic is attraction, so how a HJ can be placed in those equations is beyond my scope of imagination.
But then again, I've been celibate for 15 years now, maybe those types of things are how a girl attracts a guy.
~looks~ No, that's just ridiculous ! Why did you even bring that up SeaZen?

-------------------
End Part 1
Stay tuned for part 2..same bat time...same bat channel.

[Silver]

Whoah, that's a really long one of those (posts), A/C.

I'm exhausted (reading that post). Which I didn't. Just scanned it.

I felt someone needed to jump on the dog pile, even if for a short ride.

Therefore, I quote:

Before the Pill, sex was primarily the domain of committed relationships ie marriage and that was because(one reason) sex was accompanied by a high potential of producing children.
Now, anyone can have sex just for the pleasure aspect of it.
No mucking about with lengthy courting rituals and one partner commitments.

Back in the old days, you got to know someone first, became deeply in love with them, then you had sex...once married.
Now it's sex first then relationship later...maybe...if the sex was awesome.
Notice how sex/sexuality is being promoted and advertised as if it's the most important thing ever.



In my vernacular, all this naye-on to four-score-and-twenty years ago, our forefathers. Only in one's romanticized version of ANY time of humankind's existence, I almost typed 'sexistence,' I really did...anyway, people didn't ALL get 'to know someone first.' That sanitized version of human behavior is due to all the scandals being swept under this huge rug of shame and saving face, etc. Shame plays way too big a role in our endeavors. Permeates and stinks up the whole place.

[Mountain-Goat]

SeaZen reply Part 2

A craftsperson does not blame their tools.
If the proper tools do not exist in the first place, then yes the craftsman can blame his tools.
What, blame the tools that do not exist? That's not a craftsperson, that's a crazy mc crazy person.

If you're speaking of the craftsperson blaming the tools they have at their disposal and they know they are not up to the job...
a craftsperson would not do this.
A person not skilled, yes, but not a craftsperson.

This is somewhat equivalent to a person blaming a tree for growing where it has when they have smashed their car into it, or blaming their car.
Don't yell at the rock when you stubb your toe on it, you weren't looking where you were going.
Don't scream at the world for the sucky life you have, you create it each day by the thoughts you have.(subject to variables)

If a person is not skilled in using the currently available tools, how can they classify them as inadequate.
The inadequacy is in the user, not the tools, but it makes one feel better to find fault in others or the tools than oneself.
~smiles~ Yes yes, not disputing that. I currently don't see conscious and subconscious. I see one consciousness, and there are parts that are hidden and parts that are not. Meaning, it's possible for a person to be completely aware of all parts of self.
Consciousness - the state of being conscious; awareness of ones own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings etc.
You may think that way but the actual definitions of the words do not support your conclusions of consciousness. The very definition of consciousness implies to be aware. If some parts are hidden it is not a part of ones consciousness. Me thinks the wordsmith may be tinkering with the definitions when it suit him! ~smiles~
Never claimed to be a wordsmith, just an explorer of language.
Also, I am well aware the commonly held definitions do not match what I currently see.
I don't let that stop me from exploring alternatives to what the mainstream believe.

Plus, I never classified my current position as a conclusion.
A conclusion denotes an end to one's exploration, one's journey, truth has been found or established.
However, those that hold onto a definition, these are the people who may have ended their search.

And who created these definitions? Other people, just like you and me.
How did they come to this definition? By exploring, researching, figuring things out.
As for accusing me of tinkering...I offer one of my fav parables on consciousness.

-----------------------------------------------
After ten years of apprenticeship, Tenno achieved the rank of Zen teacher.
One rainy day, he went to visit the famous master Nan-in.
When he walked in, the master greeted him with a question, "Did you leave your wooden clogs and umbrella on the porch?"
"Yes," Tenno replied.
"Tell me," the master continued, "did you place your umbrella to the left of your shoes, or to the right?"
Tenno did not know the answer, and realized that he had not yet attained full awareness.
So he became Nan-in’s apprentice and studied under him for ten more years.
--------------------------------------------
When it's divided into conscious and subconscious, to me, this denoted conscious self will never know what's going on in one's subconscious.
Then where do these pesky things that are hidden hide?
They don't hide anywhere, they are right there, totallly exposed, you just can't see them.
If it’s in ones consciousness, it wouldn’t be hidden to begin with according to the definition. I feel that subcosncious fits the bill quite nicely.
Exactly...according to the definition.
As for, "subconscious fits the bill quite nicely"..isn't that one of the purposes of definitions?
Fitting the bill doesn't make it correct, it just means it fits.
Well, what is desire and attraction, what are the mechanics of them and that will lead you to the power source.
Cant answer this definitively but I believe the chakras are a very significant when it comes to the mechanics of desire and and attraction
So...
But when you strip away all the ** religious and cultural walls, what you have left is desire.
...there is something beyond desire then?
Ah, here you are again saying "we". Change "are we" to "Am I."
In this way, instead of wondering about others, you explore yourself and you will find your answers.
It was a rhetorical question
Rhetorical: a rhetorical question is one asked solely to produce an effect (especially to make an assertion) rather than to elicit a reply.
Soo...how many enquiries into what guys or self find attractive in women of yours are not enquiries?
My evaluation:
When I said "grammar expert dude" it wasnt that you are sitting there checking for run-ons, dotted i's and crossed t's like a HS teacher. It was a quick response. I will elaborate now.
1)You are highly adept at picking apart what someone says and looking for the meaning in their statements and questioning and challenging them. I personally do not see this as a negative. I tend to do this as well. Those who are heavily invested in their ego's who dont like to be wrong and don't really know themselves inside will find this as a negative. That "guru of all" guy comes to mind. You caused an egoic lashing out meltdown in him after 2 of your posts. I still **** when I think about it. I wouldn't change this.
My intentions vary according to the situation, but the main reason I do this is for clarification.
I spent 3/4 of my life in total assumption mode, thinking these assumptions were the truth.
I now probe and ask so that I come to a deeper understanding of what the other is expressing.

Plus, what you see as "picking apart" is simply observing and looking into a thing.
I haven't picked anything apart. It's still there in the same condition when it was first created.
Using insight I have looked into the thing, like a person does with a microscope...but nothing like a microscope.

I asked...well, my memory banks show I have asked but who can say now it's been a long time but
Who was this "guru of all" you speak of? I suspect that thread was lost in the SF meltdown.
If my spider senses are tingling about a person and I'm in a fun mood, I will full frontal confront and damn the consequences
as I have no issues with offering sincere apologies if I read my intuition incorrectly.
I see a challenge, not as an egoic battle, but as a way for each of us to discover ourselves and enlightening.
Same here.
This is what Jet Li came to know in the movie "fearless" in relation to his kung fu abilities and how he eventually perceived his challenger (great spiritual movie by the way, I highly recommend it, lots of great kung fu action too). You are quite a worthy challenger in this regard.
Brilliant movie. On my top gazillion list.
Though when I think of 'challange', I think, battle, attack, defence, thrust, parry, finally figuring out the beak bending error I then do a spin...and kesplosh...into the water I go.(~laughs @ Daffy Duck in his Robin Hood role.)

I understand your view of it though.
However, I've been on this non resistance thing for a few years now and 'challenge' is not part of that path.
Yes it was several years ago when there were inner battles whenever things would come to light, but, especially since hospital,
self or external confrontations flow in so easily I just don't feel them anymore.
2) That said, there is one quality I do find that if you eliminate, it will take you to a higher level. You take something someone says and draw a conclusion about that person. It is impossible to extrapolate someones nature and to draw a conclusion about somenone by one or two sentences of their response. I touched on this earlier in our debate when I stated you are incorrect about me and you said "thats all I have to go by". Though this exchange didnt affect me in a negative way, I do see it as a negative quality that I personally try to avoid. I can understand how this may negatively affect others and cause them to get huffy as they can see this as being presumptuous. Iam probably guilty of this as well once in a while.
Unless time pressure or laziness or bad hair day has been involved, I will begin all "conclusions" with, 'this is what I see.'
In this way I am conveying it is not a conclusion but simply my current perception based on what I see, my observation, not conclusion.
It's then up to the other to clarify if I am incorrect.

It's rare for me to 'accuse' another of something considering what I have discovered of the assumption based life I used to have.
The negative side affect of my inquiring ways is the high percentage of people who negatively respond to them.
Especially when I ask questions that have "'are you blind, the answer is so obvious"' answers.
To them it's obvious, to me it's an assumed obvious and I'd rather be 100% sure.

Anyways, too many questions annoy too many people so I take the other road and express what I see instead.
I'm the nosy annoying kid who has no, or limited social skills, but man do I get to see some wonderous things.
You can achieve the same results by going about it differently. Instead of drawing a conclusion about them, you can use the same words to question them e.g. "does this mean that you're the kind of guy that solely uses sexual attraction to evaluate women?" This way, there is no overt presumption, the person doesnt feel negative, the conversation moves forward, and the person has a chance to explain themselves and their position in depth which is where you wanted the conversation to go anyway. As I said earlier, it didnt affect me negatively and as far as I am concerned you can go either way with me when we debate. Just giving you my 2 cents as you requested. One more thought, if its not a highly charged topic, you can probably get away with it e.g. the intepretation of a spiritual book etc. etc.
Yeah I know, it's a line call in every conversation which way to go.
If I'm centered within my self I will go with the flow and to a certain and specific extent, I don't bother about how the other will repsond to my mode of communication because that is part of what we both need to experience.
Meaning, I don't go out of my way to be annoying, but if the other becomes annoyed then that's soemthing that has been brought to their light to do with however they choose.

On the other hand, in that centered mode, I am also considering the state of the other and choosing my words carefully.
Like I said, it's a line call each time.
Concluding Thoughts:
I would not change point number 1 as far as the forum is concerned as that is what this forum is all about. I would however change my tone and delivery and choice of words depending on the situation e.g. if its lighthearted joking around among forum members and you see something you vehemently disagree with it was probably not meant to be taken seriously anyway. I would go with the flow and tread lightly in this scenario and not go for the juggular (I havent seen you do this, though I did issue a disclaimer just in case on one of my joking posts in this thread )
As far as offline is concerned, that is a whole different story. I would play number 1 by ear and watch how they respond before taking it to a higher level unless its someone you already know well and have a great rapport with. Number 2 would be completely out of the question unless it was a very neutral uncharged topic.
I hope you find this useful
I appreciate your candor. And out of all the candidates, you are the front runner fo the machine seat ! <--from Contact.
I don't differenciate between online and offline conversations...though...I see I am somewhat less vocal offline than online.
The attributes of a writer I surmise.

Offline I tend to observe more than communicate, so does that mean you all have to put up with my online venting...~laughs~
~he ponders~
I talk more online because there is more time to do so, more time to consider one's words,
and offline conversations, like many things in society, are fast paced.
No time to savour, observe and experience, to allow a thing to penetrate deep within.

End of Part 2.
Stay tuned for the unexpected Part 3. same bat time...same bat channel.

[Mountain-Goat]

SeaZen reply Part 3

As for the driving force/mechanism for all things a person does and feels, not just attraction and desire, the answer is very simple.
Choice. a person's will.
Regardless of the complexity or how many elements are involved, the source is the person chooses to.
Do you really feel we have a conscious choice in that matter if something hidden is driving it? You believe yourself that there are things hidden.
No, I don't feel we anything, I only know of my experiences and what's happening with me.
Nor do I believe there are hidden things within me. I said it's logically possible.
Experiences thus far have uncovered many hidden things but that is not proof there are more to uncover,
but equally there is no proof that there aren't more. I choose to be open to the possibility.

Only by going in more will that question be answered and believing simply doesn't come into the equations.
The current theory I am exploring states that all actions, feelings and desires are driven by decisions/choices.
Decisions are derived by considering data, weighing up the pros and cons and choosing a course of action.
What is "hidden" is the data being considered and the decision one has made.

Paraphrased from Joe Dispenza's book, Evolve Your Brain. And he says it in What The Bleep too, if memory serves me correct.
The average mind processes 400 billion bits of information a second. But the person is only aware of 2000 of them a second.
Increase self awareness and more of the 400 billion will be seen.
Self awareness = self understanding = self control.
Self control = the ability to choose one's thoughts, actions and feelings regardless of circumstances - internal or external.

Like I had written in my My Realisation thread, this theory stipulates there is no such thing as a reaction,
only conscious response and unconscious response.
The level of unconsciousness is proportionally related to one's self awareness.
The more self aware, the more one can see one's decisions that control their behaviour.
The math fits and it's now a process of testing the math. Or, the logic chain is seen and it's now a process of looking for broken links, if there are any.
However, and I agree with your observation that there may be things still hidden that influence a person's decisions.
Yes, no arguement from me, considering the journey I have been on, I know all too well that there is still a lot of unchartered territory of myself.
Then why do think that sexual desire is not one of them? Cannot that be somehow hidden in the attraction process you described for yourself? Something oh so subtle that it flies beneath the radar?
Sexual desire can be one of them, if I choose it to be.
Desire is created by continuous thoughts of the subject. Desire is wanting something.
I do not think of sex , nor do I want it, so there is no sexual desire.
Those several times I did masterbate in the last 10 months were because I consciously chose to feel pleasure.
I chose to be sexually aroused and stimulated. No hidden things driving me to action.
Sexual desire is created by choosing to want sex with the person you are attracted to.
You make this out to be a very conscious thought process. How do you know that there are not hidden processes at work that you are yet not aware of?
It's a conscious thought process because that's how it is for me. It wasn't like this 15 years ago, but it has evolved into this now.
I haven't developed a new skill. I have simply become aware of thoughts that were once hidden from my sight.
How do I know there are no hidden processes at work, regarding sexual desire?

Simple. Here's a hypomathematical as an example.

In complete privacy, just me and a bunch of nude pics, I can choose to be sexually aroused or not.
There is no avoidance of looking, or thinking about baseball, no repression of rising desires. Just a simple choosing to not be aroused.
I could look at these pics for hours and marvel at the exquisite beauty and not be sexually aroused in the slightest.
To me, this points to no hidden things driving me. I am the driver of the vehicle called AC.

Another term for people who are living unconsciously is they are running on autopilot.
Just like Tenno who couldn't remember which side of his shoes he left his umbrella at.
He put the umbrella there, he was just on autopilot for that action.
This is unconsciousness.
He was conscious enough to place the umbrella next to his shoes, but unconscious to which side he placed them.
The autopilot mode is where the 400 billion minus 2000 processes are taking place.

Sherlock Holmes is a wonderful example of increased awareness.
How could he deduce so much more when looking at the same info that everyone else was looking at?
Because he saw more. And when he describes what he sees, it's always obvious, nothing hidden, it's all there in the room for anyone to see.
It's that the others could not see it, even though it was not hidden.

The difference between Holmes and others?
He was more awake than others. The others had their inner eyes closed. They were asleep.
Conscious and unconscious. Not physical unconsciousness, psyche unconsciousness.

Buddha's message to the world..."Wake up !"

This is why pornography is hugely profitable, so many guys living on autopilot with the compass firmly set to pleasure.
Also the same with advertising...huge profits. And what's the biggest seller of products? Sexual imagery. Stimulating one's pleasure centers.

My fav ad at the moment. I haven't watched tv for years, but indulge every now and then.
The ad is directed at guys, some little hatch thingy, a Holden I think.
The ad is factual, listing all the features type thing, economical, connects an Ipod, etc
The voice over telling you this that and the other thing. All imagery is either outdoors(car driving) or closeup shots of the features.

But halfway through the ad the voiceover says, "Everything you'll ever want in a car."
And while he says this, the shot is now inside a nightclub. A very unusual nightclub because it's well lit and you can see everyone.
And who do you see right in front of you when the voiceover is saying, "Everything you'll ever want in a car"?
Not one...not two...but three very hot chicks. All looking your way and smiling. The main girl in front smiling and body language clearly saying, " I so want to have sex with you."
This ad cracks me up every time. Get it? Everything you'll ever want in a car, three hot chicks and one definately wants to bed you right now. GO BUY THIS CAR NOW !!!
~laughs~
If you see this sexual mechanism as a biological mechanism that the conscious has no control over, then that is how it shall be for you.
I have learnt otherwise on my self exploration journey these last 10 years.
I do not see it this way. I see the sexual mechanism as conglomeration of many mechanisms, including all of the chakras, attraction, desire, conscious preferences etc. There is definitely control over who you choose to have sex with and times where sexual attraction manifests after getting to know someone first, but there are also instances where one can spot a female for the first time and feel an instantaneous feeling of romantic desire/sexual attraction.
Not disputing there aren't people who experience this instant boner, though I seriously doubt this happens with most guys.
And conglomeration or single mechanism, it's still a mechanism, and mechanisms need a person to operate it/them.
Attraction and romance are not inseparable for me AC. As I mentioned earlier, I have female friends that I am attracted to as a platonic friend. Even ones that are not married or with boyfriends. I can also see myself being attracted initially and developing a romantic attraction later, however, If I am romantically attracted from the get go it is what it is and there is some kind of sexual element in me at some level, conscious or as a base chakra vibe or below the conscious or whatever. Otherwise it wouldn’t be what it is. I cannot understand how one can be romantically attracted without it at some level.
What do you mean by romantically attracted?
Because to me romance means going on a date, dinner, walking on the beach, seeing a chick flick, telling her what's beautiful about her and how deeply I enjoy her company, listening to her stories of sorrow and joy from her life, etc.

As for attraction and romance not being inseparable for you...
Do you mean to tell me you can be romantically attracted with no thought or feeling whatsoever in the back of your mind of any kind of physical intimacy? If so what’s the point?
You've added "romantic" just now. Up till then, the discussion was/is attraction, not romantic attraction.
My conversation with White Wolf, where you have found these qoutes, was indeed in regards to romantic attraction. Though I may not have said the words "romantic attraction" specifically in those postings, it was a given.
1: "it was a given". It was not given. You had "romantic attraction" in your head when you expressed "attraction".
Meaning you "gave" "attraction" and not "romantic attraction." Say what you mean.

2: And because it is a given to you, that when you say "attraction" you mean "romantic attraction", is there a difference between attraction and romantic attraction or not?
Well, for the record I am not exclusively sexually motivated when looking for a relationship and that was not what I was implying in the post you wanted us to discuss most recently. I was just saying that a sexual/base chakra aspect is a part of the overall "romantic" attraction process in the very specific scenario I painted (boy sees girl at party for the first time and feels romantically attracted). Be it overt or in the background, subconcious etc.
RAAAAAR !! IF IT'S IN THE SUBCONSCIOUS, HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT'S THERE???? ~laughs~
As far as sexual motivation is concerned in and of itself, it is my opinion that it is most prevalent among teenage guys and dwindles down slowly as a guy ages and considers other aspects. This is due in the most part to the raging hormones that cause those frequent and long lasting erections as a teen.
The mind controls hormone production. Who controls the mind?
Its why I feel that society should encourage mutual masturbation among teens of the same age so that the guy can get release and his mind off of it and have a chance to get the know the girl on a higher level without that as a distraction. The surgeon general under Bill Clinton suggested this in the early 90's and she was forced out of office because of it.
No way...a politician making a right call...unbelievable !
The body's chemicals don't produce thoughts. Thoughts produce the body's chemicals.

To get your mind off...wait...this says it far better than I can.

-------------------------------------
A Sufi teaching tells of the man who visited a great mystic to find out how to let go of his chains of attachment and his prejudices.
Instead of answering him directly, the mystic jumped to his feet and bolted to a nearby pillar,
flung his arms around it, grasping the marble surface as he screamed, "Save me from this pillar! Save me from this pillar!"

The man who had asked the question could not believe what he saw. He thought the mystic was mad.
"Why are you doing that?" the man asked. "I came to you to ask a spiritual question because I thought you were wise, but obviously you're crazy.
You are holding the pillar, the pillar is not holding you. You can simply let go."

The mystic let go of the pillar and said to the man, "If you can understand that, you have your answer.
Your chains of attachment are not holding you, you are holding them. You can simply let go."
-------------------------------

Masterbating does not get a person's mind off sex, it re inforces it.
As arive nan had spoken of earlier regarding sexual addiction, the more you do it, the body becomes addicted to the pleasure these chemicals produce.
Masterbating may have temporarily dispelled the desire for sexual union for that instance, but it's just transfered the act from sex to masterbating.

Advertising/consumerism works on this principle: Supply a product and a demand will be created. It works because this is how the body/mind functions.

So, remove the supply(sex, masterbating, pornography, sexual thoughts), and the demand(desire for sexual gratification/release) will end.
Supply the sexual experience or the offer/availability of it and the demand will continue.



OMG..I've finished...woo, yeah baby, riggedy roll...ohhhh...now I'm tired ~ laughs~

This so reminds me of Stewie's first experience of sodie pop.
Brian is looking after him, or was it Meg...anyways, he's sort of unsupervised and he threatens to drink a soda...
maybe it was the episode where he..nah, I now have two other episodes in my head, I can't correctly recall.

Anyways, he gulps down the soda and bang zoom, he's running around and around and around and around and around...
If you know Family Guy you know he doesn't just run around, it's around and around and around and around and around.
And he's running around giggling his head off all the while, then bang,"Ohhhh...now I'm sad."
~laughs~ Family Guy issa so funny !
　
And I would like to point out, blow my own trumpet so to speak..haha blow my own trumpet..there's another one.
There were a bazillion jokes, puns and double tundras to be exploited in this thread, and I didn't go there...except for the blowing my own trumpet one.
I'm quite proud of myself and, I got this done before the year was out. Finished this on the 28th.
Oh, and I do like the horse one because it's so unexpected. Spike Milligan was a master of this type of humor.

An update on my celibacy.

Intuition was speaking while I was living with sis and brother up in Toowong the month before coming to Tazzie.
Telling me that my celibacy would go into a deeper zone. But I was also seeing info about a soulmate or a deeper experience of connection,
I was unclear as to which one it actually was. The clarified bit was it had to do with relationships and me.

Anyways, because I have been occupied with adjusting to the differnet culture and lifestyle down here, multitasking far above what I have been for many years
and with an abundance of new experiences and people to enjoy, observe and ponder, I had forgotten about my celibacy.
Having a good look at it now and it's definately gone into a deeper level.
Meaning the way of non resisitance, of effortless effort to not be influenced has increased.

My self awareness has...how can I describe it...it actually mirrors the environment I am in.
Before I was cooped up inside, rehabilitating, awesome that it was.
Now I'm outside, sitting in the warmth and gentle glow of the sun and all around me is fresh and vibrant.
The clarity is breathtaking but equally so too is the inner calm so there is no desire to woo or yeah baby.
I just smile and a gentle shiver washes over me.

[Mountain-Goat]

And, as I have been skimming over this thread it has come to my attention that I have deep concerns that "most men" could be sexually motivated.
Because of this I am semi automatically defending that they aren't.
That is, I'm thinking to myself," OMG there is no way guys are like this"
But they actually could be.
~continues reading responses~
I think it's true that most men are sexually motivated. Since most women have sex drives it's not an entirely bad thing, as long as men can also develop other levels of attraction. I feel like protesting when someone seems to say or believe that there's always a sexual element for everyone. But I am aware that the sexual element is very prevalent among most humans when it comes to attraction and relationships. It can be problematic in some ways. I think the trick is for people to find someone they are compatible with on various levels who isn't motivated only by sex.
Well said arive. The issue being what is at the top of the list of motivations regarding relationships.
And I agree, sex is beautiful, though I won't have it as the foundation of a relationship or as the primary motivation of attraction.

[Mountain-Goat]

Whoah, that's a really long one of those (posts), A/C.

I'm exhausted (reading that post). Which I didn't. Just scanned it.

I felt someone needed to jump on the dog pile, even if for a short ride.

Therefore, I quote:



In my vernacular, all this naye-on to four-score-and-twenty years ago, our forefathers. Only in one's romanticized version of ANY time of humankind's existence, I almost typed 'sexistence,' I really did...anyway, people didn't ALL get 'to know someone first.' That sanitized version of human behavior is due to all the scandals being swept under this huge rug of shame and saving face, etc. Shame plays way too big a role in our endeavors. Permeates and stinks up the whole place.
Never said all, I said majority.
Marriage was far more common than the scandals.

[psychoslice]

I have to be honest and say that I don't really see any difference in women or men, I just see another being, I do get on better with women though, I think because most men are trying to be a man whatever that is. Most of my friends are women and I don't want to go to bed with any of them, I did have a problem a few years ago where I could not stand to see women acting cheap, I wanted to go and get rid of as many as I could, I found out through therapy that this came from when my mother once chased we and my dad out of the house with a knife, she yelled out that she was going to leave and become a prostitute, those words rang through my head for years.

[dogninja]

Personally, its a perfect behind that gets me. Is there a rule against saying behind in here?



Edited by SF Staff

[Xan]

AC... I seem to remember you saying you wanted to write a book sometime. It seems you've done it.


Xan

[Xan]

Kapitan... So, maybe you will manifest meeting the woman you described, right down to the seamed silk stockings.

My question is... ummm... what about the love and the soul connection.

When we focus on the outer forms of things that's likely to be all we get. However........


Xan

[Kaere]

I'm not sure that's shallow...it's honest anyway. I've been known to be attracted to a pleasant behind myself - but it doesn't make it the only thing that's important, just that it's attractive.

[Silver]

Methinks this thread is getting way too hot, and not in that good Las Vegas way, LOL!
And yet strangely entertaining~

[Silver]

Never said all, I said majority.
Marriage was far more common than the scandals.

And the general membership is supposed to assume you were either there, or you have an inside scoop of some sort.

[dogninja]

Honest to the core. I have certainly made the mistake of not checking to see that the behind was attached to a solid, compassionate and intelligent woman. Cast that first stone if you have never experienced lust, or are not attracted to body components.



Edited by SF Staff

[Silver]

Honest to the core. I have certainly made the mistake of not checking to see that the behind was attached to a solid, compassionate and intelligent woman. Cast that first stone if you have never experienced lust, or are not attracted to body components.

Oh, excellent, dogninja!

[dogninja]

All of my friends are women. I am in a monogamous relationship, and always have been. Female energy is certainly incredibly appealing to me, but the are too many specific components that seem to differ slightly in women for me to list. But honestly it is an energetic thing thats difficult to fully explain without sounding like a young stupid and incredibly virile male.

[Mountain-Goat]

And the general membership is supposed to assume you were either there, or you have an inside scoop of some sort.
~smiles~ Then the same applies for your version of history.

[Mountain-Goat]

AC... I seem to remember you saying you wanted to write a book sometime. It seems you've done it.


Xan
Ah, no. This is not a book, just a total reply to SeaZen. We had discussed a lot.
The long posts are only 11 pages of A4 in total. Hardly the number of pages one usually finds in a book.
The book I begin this year.

[Xan]

In how many volumes?

Once you get going... well.......


Xan

[Silver]

~smiles~ Then the same applies for your version of history. gee then there's nothing to talk about lol nobody knows anything - neither of us was there!

[Kapitan_Prien]

Xan: Kapitan... So, maybe you will manifest meeting the woman you described, right down to the seamed silk stockings.

My question is... ummm... what about the love and the soul connection.

When we focus on the outer forms of things that's likely to be all we get. However........


Kaere:
I'm not sure that's shallow...it's honest anyway. I've been known to be attracted to a pleasant behind myself - but it doesn't make it the only thing that's important, just that it's attractive.


Thanks Kaere.

And I would bring up my wife in response to Xan's post/reply...but then I can see people harping on me for having 'attachments' and all that other nonsense.