Reincarnations Do we have a Choice ?

[Lynn]

The word Reincarnation means to make new again.

It is said to be when the Soul leaves the body and is freed at the time of death of the physical body to come forth again to a new body. When one dies from the physical body I feel that the Soul is what goes to the Light to be re born or to come to a new body for more in the body learning’s and experiences. That said I do wonder on having a choice where we come to or that we might or might not want to come back.


Do we have a choice on where we come back to ?


Do we have a choice to maybe NOT come back ?




Lynn


Lynn

[EmergingPath]

Based upon what I've read (like Michael Newton "Journey of Souls" "Destiny of Souls") we do have a choice and the point of reincarnation is to develop the soul to the point where we no longer incarnate and move beyond that to whats next...

[StephenK]

Do we have a choice on where we come back to ?
Do we have a choice to maybe NOT come back ?

Consider this first...

When being born physically you are leaving the frame of reference that made this decision. You are withdrawing from your oversoul exposure
and are opting for this chance to be limited.

Now you're physical, and your ability to relate is fully wrapped within this context.

It naturally appears to me that we would be missing key components in order to understand why we would bounce from life to life.

The decision to adopt another life isn't made while engaged in this physical perspective.
So I suspect when we do make such a decision we're then much "smarter" than we happen to be while cloaked in this body....

In which case our options would be considerably more clear...

So I figure it's wiser to concern ourselves with such things, when the moment is more aligned toward doing so.... :^)

[SandybytheSea]

With all the past life regressions I've conducted, I have never once had anyone say "oh damn I'm getting reincarnated again, what a pain!" But what I HAVE heard often are words like "well that was a wasted life, I can't wait to do it better next time!"

Everyone chooses whether to incarnate, or not (in other words, to be or not to be, lol) and also chooses how where why when and with whom. With a little help from our friends, of course. And while many people say they wouldn't want to come back and "do it all again", from the perspective of the "other side" it seems we are usually very enthusiastic about doing it all again. Maybe it helps that from "there" an entire lifetime seems like the blink of an eye - hey, no sweat, I'll get it done and be home in a flash!" We forget how emotionally draining a physical incarnation can be.

I like the way you put it, StephenK :when we do make such a decision we're then much "smarter" than we happen to be while cloaked in this body....

We're able to see where we got it right, didn't quite get it right, what we needed to learn/experience/understand, who we hurt, who we lifted up, how much light (or darkness) we spread, what we need to do. None of that is possible from the perspective of the physical, where our focus tends to be on getting through the day, paying the bills, and trying to stay sane.

I liken it to looking at a huge tapestry - when we're incarnate, it's like we're right up close to the tapestry and all we can see are a few threads. We have no idea what the picture or pattern is. But the further back we get, the more the picture reveals itself, and the easier it is to see our mistakes as well as our accomplishments.

[Chrysaetos]

With all the past life regressions I've conducted, I have never once had anyone say "oh damn I'm getting reincarnated again, what a pain!" But what I HAVE heard often are words like "well that was a wasted life, I can't wait to do it better next time!"

Hi SandybytheSea,

What about people that ''choose'' to be born deaf and with incurable disease?
I don't think they were cheering before taking birth.

--

''Reincarnations Do we have a Choice ?''

I think it depends on individual evolution? Really, I can't give a better explanation..:D If you're lucky and you've been a good boy you might have more choices to make then if you were a baddie.

Reincarnation is scary anyway, you have no control over what will happen.

[Bella]

I believe you have a choice ..
I mean, all I really sense, personally, for me is that .. .. I've known many people that have died, who seem like they would have so much that would make them be reincarnated to finish/complete/evolve from and to me that would relate with the concept/thought of having no choice .... because you would have to personally Finish, at some point...
But, something very strong in me, tells me that those loved ones of mine, who seem like they would have so much that would make them be reincarnated, actually wouldn't be/wouldn't have to because they learned so much inside, even if it seemed like they were completely at loss of the questions they had of so much.
Hopefully I'm making sense here.
Reincarnation .. I believe .. you Do have a choice. I mean put it this way, do you think .. your soul is just thrown around the galaxy and back into this Earth which we all can say at some point or all in all is our own personal hell (where we create our own heaven, to expand that into Changing the world)

??
Hopefully I'm making some sense..


Maybe you do have a choice and may you don't have a choice, but either way whichever it is, it most likely has a very very good reason behind it.

[Summerland]

I absolutely believe that we have a choice to reincarnate. And I agree with Sandy; we choose our circumstances, not only to help ourselves to grow and learn but to help those that we love to learn and grow. It is so hard to understand why souls decide to incarnate as a person who will be blind or handicapped or to live in a impoverished country. Our souls are much wiser when not in the flesh and do have a fuller view of the tapestry.

[Chrysaetos]

I absolutely believe that we have a choice to reincarnate. And I agree with Sandy; we choose our circumstances, not only to help ourselves to grow and learn but to help those that we love to learn and grow. It is so hard to understand why souls decide to incarnate as a person who will be blind or handicapped or to live in a impoverished country. Our souls are much wiser when not in the flesh and do have a fuller view of the tapestry.
Hi Summerland,

You say ''our souls'' so does that mean we are ''possessed'' somehow by this ''soul'' ?

It's indeed hard to imagine why individuals would choose such circumstances. Where lies the point in experiencing such things?

[mei-ling]

I am not sure if people actually decide to incarnate as a person in an impoverished country...........Actually I find it rather dangerous to think that way..............It gives the ones in the rich west a beautiful excuse to not care at all. You can simply say....; 'you chose to be there..........". This is far too simple in my opinion.............

[Miko]

Most psychics that I've read say that we have a choice. Some souls incarnate once or twice and then decide it's not really for them. I've lived many lives from what I can remember, I think it's an accelerated form of evolving or growing, spiritually.

I remember not having any say in some of my charted lives, and those were decided by a master guide. Even though I was concerned about those lives, I lived them anyway, trusting in my guides. There are lessons we don't even know we need to learn, and those lessons enrich our souls.

[Chrysaetos]

Most psychics in the west say so, because that's what their cultural upbringing is (free choice, liberalism).

If you ask eastern guru's, I'm sure most of them would say our circumstances are based on good and bad actions/karma.

What we are looking at with these explanations is a fundamental difference between west and east. One believes we come here out of free will, free choice etc. and the other believes the soul/self is trapped in the web of karma and has to get out. This is a major difference.

Who is right? I don't know.. But I do know that their religious/spiritual beliefs are shaped by their cultural upbringing.

[Verunia]

If you ask eastern guru's, I'm sure most of them would say our circumstances are based on good and bad actions/karma.


Good point, I was actually going to type something similar before I came across your post, lol :D

My belief is that choice is not needed. We are in the flux of all living things' movement, and we shall be moved to where it is we need to go. For what purpose maybe will be revealed to us, but would knowing if we had a choice or not in reincarnation really make a difference?

Or would it just make us feel more comfortable?

[Xan]

It seems we tend to see our attitude toward rebirth from our current point of view, forgetting that after death and before birth our perspective is quite different.

Before we take on a new incarnation we consult with our teachers and council of elders in the spirit realms, to choose what kinds of abilities we want to develop further, what we want to resolve with individuals we are close to, what we want to contribute to the world, and what challenges we need to have in order to develop the most.

Dr. Michael Newton has two fascinating books written from many people's memories of the between lives period: "Journey of Souls" and "Destiny of Souls".


Xan

[Summerland]

Hi Summerland,

You say ''our souls'' so does that mean we are ''possessed'' somehow by this ''soul'' ?

It's indeed hard to imagine why individuals would choose such circumstances. Where lies the point in experiencing such things?

We are our souls just wearing a body. Just as you would chose a vehicle to drive. You are not the vehicle, but the driver. The soul incarnated into the body that will best serve the souls purpose in this lifetime. On the other side, we can take on any form that we choose. If a person dies in a horrible crash, the soul is not going to appear on the "other side" in that condition; it will appear as the person it was until it adjusts to being in spirit form again.

[Gracey]

do we have a choice? from what i have been taught, only if we can face ourselves after death, if not, then its back to the world again. if we can face ourselves then we will go back to the source with our identity. if we are generally a good person and cant, you are reborn. if you are a negative person and cant, it is oblivion for you, no identity and in the source. if you are a negative person who decides to face yourself, you will be reborn.

[Uma]

I used to believe in free will. Now I think choice is an illusion, not that anything is set in stone but that it's all cohersion by unseen forces.

"Like flies to wanton boys, they use us for their sport." (Hamlet speaking about the gods)

[StephenK]

I suspect our current perspective on this would be based on one of two things. Do we trust in the process or not?

If we think that the afterlife can be as sleazy as this one can sometimes be, then trust would be a hard one to come by.

But if balance is our thing, and we sense within, a living intuition of eternal integrity, then we're more likely to embrace an evolving unfolding.

Here's the barometer I use...... when I focus on the first choice I feel notably down, when I wrap myself around the later I feel wonderfully at ease...

Intuitively the second option is my enduring home..... it has been for as long as I can remember... :^)


PS. I adored your response SandybytheSea! :icon_sunny:

[Greenslade]

I believe I am an aspect of a Spirit, like the way Lobsang Rampa describes the Overself or the Oneself. That makes sense to me and it helps me visualise the relationship. Just right now he's in my ear and I asked him what the point was of me living this Life, right here and now. "Because it's helping me" came the answer. Some days he'll talk my ears off, some he'll be as cryptic and tight-lipped to the point of distraction :-) According to him my Soul chose these experiences before I became incarnate, and what happens in my Life 'feeds back' to him. I've also been told this is my final incarnation.

I don't believe Spirit sees things they way we do. Many have asked why anyone would choose a Life that wasn't all sunshine and roses, but I don't believe Spirit sees good and bad the way we do. If the Universe an't distinguish between good and bad then who are we to argue, unless it's to get a perspective on it? I believe karma is like a coin - everything in this Life is like a coin. Perhaps the karma in one Life is to buy someone an ice cream, obviously it might be someone else's karma to receive it so as Spirit you decide who's buying and who's eating. The karma in the next Life would be the flipping of the coin - the original buyer wondering what it would taste like and the original receiver wondering what it would be like to give one.

[StephenK]

The karma in the next Life would be the flipping of the coin - the original buyer wondering what it would taste like and the original receiver wondering what it would be like to give one. http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/images/evonature/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fnewreply.php%2525253Fdo%252525 3Dnewreply%25252526amp%2525253Bp%2525253D32705)
And then hopefully,
by the next life that follows,
it'll finally occur to them
that sharing an ice cream
is the enriching key
to a mutually satisfying
and
empathetic experience... :^)

[Lightbringer]

Dear Friend,
Incarnation into physical existence is the quickest way to evolve spiritually. This is the reason for physical existence. However, we must not forget that we have free will. On transition from the physical to the spiritual world we enter a multi step process. The first step is one of rest and recouperation. If you think of reincarnation as a school this step is the end of term break. Because of free will we can take as long as we like resting.
The next step is one of reflection where we can reflect on the last physical life we experienced and learn from our mistakes.
After this we can progress from the spiritual "mental world" to the spiritual "higher mental" level. At this point we can decide to reincarnate and also decide the general experiences we will be subjected to. Because there is no such thing as time or space in the spiritual levels, we can wait untill we feel we are ready to progress at each stage of the journey. Of course dear friend this is my understanding of the process, which does not mean it is an indisputable fact.
Peace be with you.

[Rah nam]

The word Reincarnation means to make new again.

It is said to be when the Soul leaves the body and is freed at the time of death of the physical body to come forth again to a new body. When one dies from the physical body I feel that the Soul is what goes to the Light to be re born or to come to a new body for more in the body learning’s and experiences. That said I do wonder on having a choice where we come to or that we might or might not want to come back.

Do we have a choice on where we come back to ?

Do we have a choice to maybe NOT come back ?

We always have a choice.
By the way, the soul can not leave the body since it never was near the body.

[SandybytheSea]

I'm a little concerned by 3 remarks amongst these posts.

Gracey said she was taught that if you are a negative person, it's oblivion for you. That's enough to push some who are feeling depressed or are grieving right over the edge! We are all eternal souls, there is no oblivion, and after all, what is negativity? It's the opposite of positivity, just as night is the opposite of day, dark is the opposite of light. Neither is good or bad. The universe needs positive and negative, light and dark, yin and yang to hold it together. We all need to experience all aspects of what it is to be human to complete us - which is why we incarnate in the first place!

Mei-ling said: I doubt anyone chooses to incarnate in an impoverished country ... that would give the west a beautiful excuse not to care. Becoming rich or incarnating into a comfortable life isn't why we come - we come to learn! But we also come to help others learn. We are all members of soul groups who incarnate to experience for ourselves and to assist others in our soul group to experience what THEY need. There would hardly be any point incarnating every time as a rich white happy successful male - we need to know what it's like to be rich and poor, male and female, black/yellow/red/purple. We need to know what it's like to have a family, to have no family, be attractive, be considered unattractive (according to current social attitudes towards beauty) be a genius or a slow learner, be healthy or be disabled. And not only do WE need to experience these things, but so do those around us. Many souls volunteer to incarnate in impoverished countries or circumstances for the very reason you discount it - to help those who incarnated in rich countries or circumstances SEE how they need to help, to encourage their compassion. Some learn, some don't - but eventually all do. However many lifetimes it takes is of no consequence, because time doesn't exist beyond our man-made clocks.

The above also applies to Chrysaetos' post that people would hardly be enthusiastic about incarnating as deaf or incurable. Why not? Our mission on earth is not to get rich, it's not even necessarily to be happy (although that's always a choice we have and rarely a choice we embrace) but it's to learn and to help others learn. My mother has been disabled for over 20 years, and I have been her full-time sole carer during those years. I can't begin to tell you how much I have learned in that time - lessons I would never have learnt without her volunteering to assume that role. For a start, I've learnt compassion, tolerance, the joy of giving. She has also learnt much, including patience, acceptance, and faith. We've both learnt the ability to remain joyous and loving throughout difficult and challenging circumstances. How do we learn such lessons when we have plenty of money and a comfortable life?

[Chrysaetos]

I
The above also applies to Chrysaetos' post that people would hardly be enthusiastic about incarnating as deaf or incurable. Why not? Our mission on earth is not to get rich, it's not even necessarily to be happy (although that's always a choice we have and rarely a choice we embrace) but it's to learn and to help others learn. My mother has been disabled for over 20 years, and I have been her full-time sole carer during those years. I can't begin to tell you how much I have learned in that time - lessons I would never have learnt without her volunteering to assume that role. For a start, I've learnt compassion, tolerance, the joy of giving. She has also learnt much, including patience, acceptance, and faith. We've both learnt the ability to remain joyous and loving throughout difficult and challenging circumstances. How do we learn such lessons when we have plenty of money and a comfortable life? Sandy,

Life is beautiful, but that's not a reason to stop questioning it.
Of course we learn, but whether that is a goal by itself remains to be seen. You also say we need to experience all aspects, which is belief. We know we experience duality in this world, and then we create theories about it, to make sense of it. A universe that needs 'positive' and 'negative' is based on our own earthly experience.

[CuriousSnowflake]

I don't believe in reincarnation, per se. I believe that the idea we call "reincarnation" is based upon a limited perspective and an attachment to the individual self. What I personally believe is far simpler than reincarnation, namely that All Is One. I believe there is only One Soul (you may call this God if you choose) which merely appears as separate souls/selves/people for the purpose of creating experience.

Let me explain further. If All Is One, then there is one thing which this One cannot do, and that is experience anything. Experience requires separation, because in order to have experience, there must be something to experience. Oneness (the term I use for "God", since it implies both a state and a being) has all knowledge, obviously, but cannot experience it. It has the idea of compassion, but cannot be compassionate because there is no one to be compassionate towards. It has the concept of forgiveness, but cannot actualize it because there is no one else to forgive. Therefore, Oneness created the perspective of separateness within/from Itself in order to be able to experience that which, until then, was merely concept.

So what does this have to do with reincarnation? Well, in order to experience, we must completely believe in this perception of separateness. Part and parcel with this perception is the experience of linear Time, because in order to experience anything, there must be a progression of events. But sometimes, in order to experience certain things, a degree of pre-existing context is required, context not easily acquired in a single lifetime. Therefore a degree of this perception of separateness is dropped in some individuals, creating a connection or resonance with particular other individuations of Oneness, irrespective of where they exist in linear Time.

What this means to us (and without my penchant for 4-syllable words) is that certain time periods and lives of others resonate with us in order to create the context needed for us to have certain experiences. Sometimes we perceive this as a "past life" we have lived, other times simply as an affinity with a certain time period.

One thing this idea explains away that has always been an Achilles Heel to reincarnationists is the fact that more than one person often claims to have been a particular person in a past life. If we are each individual souls, how can more than one person have "past life memories" of being Shakespeare or John Lennon or Mary Magdalene? Yet more than one person claims to be the reincarnation of this or the other famous person all the time. OTOH, if All Is One, two people could easily have past life memories from the same historical figure, or 5 people, or 50, or 5000. Because, in truth, we have all been everyone and everything, and we merely resonate with whichever other individuation best creates the context we need to experience what we choose.

This also tosses the whole "learning" thing out the window. Living many lives in order to "learn" only makes sense if we are separate. But if All Is One, what is there to learn? All knowledge, all ideas, all "lessons" already exist to us, at our most basic level. We are not here to learn. Life is not a "school for souls". We are here to create ourselves as whoever and whatever we choose, and then to experience the results of those choices.

CS

[Chrysaetos]

This also tosses the whole "learning" thing out the window. Living many lives in order to "learn" only makes sense if we are separate. But if All Is One, what is there to learn? All knowledge, all ideas, all "lessons" already exist to us, at our most basic level. We are not here to learn. Life is not a "school for souls". We are here to create ourselves as whoever and whatever we choose, and then to experience the results of those choices.

CS
Yes Snowflake, this leads me to believe that we are individual. We may experience unity/oneness, but it doesn't make us that.
Just because our individual body/mind changes and is temporary is not a reason to believe there is no higher individuality.

If all is one, and individuality is illusion.. there's no reason at all for its existence.

[Summerland]

Dear Friend,
Incarnation into physical existence is the quickest way to evolve spiritually. This is the reason for physical existence. However, we must not forget that we have free will. On transition from the physical to the spiritual world we enter a multi step process. The first step is one of rest and recouperation. If you think of reincarnation as a school this step is the end of term break. Because of free will we can take as long as we like resting.
The next step is one of reflection where we can reflect on the last physical life we experienced and learn from our mistakes.
After this we can progress from the spiritual "mental world" to the spiritual "higher mental" level. At this point we can decide to reincarnate and also decide the general experiences we will be subjected to. Because there is no such thing as time or space in the spiritual levels, we can wait untill we feel we are ready to progress at each stage of the journey. Of course dear friend this is my understanding of the process, which does not mean it is an indisputable fact.
Peace be with you.

Lightbringer, that is a beautiful description of the process. That is my understanding of the whole transition from life back to another life. But you have put it in a very clear, understandable context. Hats off to you.:icon_thumright:

[Gracey]

Gracey said she was taught that if you are a negative person, it's oblivion for you. That's enough to push some who are feeling depressed or are grieving right over the edge! We are all eternal souls, there is no oblivion, and after all, what is negativity? It's the opposite of positivity, just as night is the opposite of day, dark is the opposite of light. Neither is good or bad. The universe needs positive and negative, light and dark, yin and yang to hold it together. We all need to experience all aspects of what it is to be human to complete us - which is why we incarnate in the first place!


there is created mass and uncreated mass. uncreated mass is the source of creation. oblivion is going back to that source with no identity, no big deal really, you are not lost just sent home to be recreated into something else.

[Native spirit]

:smile: It is said that we choose what family we are reborn back into, this is one area i have trouble with as i would Not have choosen to be born in the family i was born into.
all i know this is my final life time, and im glad of that i would never want to be born into a mortal life again,
i have lived many life times, but this is by far the worst,


Namaste

[SeaZen]

From what I read and believe, we have total freedom of choice in all conditions of our re-entry including country of birth, parents etc. How can it be otherwise? If we didnt have this freedom of choice, it would imply that the source/creator is dictatorial and tells you what to do which isnt the case. The source/creator is total freedom and so are we.

[StephenK]

Life is not a "school for souls". We are here to create ourselves as whoever and whatever we choose, and then to experience the results of those choices.

Now you realize of course, that your entire post is base on beliefs and assumptions as they've aligned for you over the years. This is pretty much
the case with all of our posts on this subject. We're tossing out the best that we feel we know based on our experience to date.

The key here is not to be overly committed to any one view over another. For even if we're fairly close to enumerating the actual structure as it truly exists
for our souls, we'll still not be fully aligned with it's significance while still human. Based on current physical limitations we're basically left with extrapolations.
None of which we should be going-to-the-mat to defend.

It seems to me that our tendency to do so is something of a hang-over from a lifetime of being exposed to religious indoctrinations at one level
or another. Pretty much all religions have at their core a set of highly processed beliefs. As the soul goes these beliefs are primarily empty calories.
And yet the religious communities push these beliefs through the pure act of "insistence". They picture this story-lined reality and then
"insist" that it's so.

The bane of most "believers" is the assumption that the narrative is already in place, it's now up to them to align to it.... and then it's their-bad if they don't.

When approaching our spiritual natures it's really, really, really wise to leave this part of our conditioning behind us. Less emphasis on "thought" and
a greater adherence on direct experience. How do we feel when we're around others individually. What are the implications that arise from these connections.
That focus alone could encompass a lifetime... and leave us with an intense appreciation for the manor in which ourselves and others
tend to create through our thoughts and emotional interactions.

Why we are what we are and what we'll eventually become at this state is basically irrelevant. We'll get an upload on that within moments of passing-over.
For our time here now is to observe and to ingest. And to wisely hold everything else with an open palm.... :^)

[Roselove]

if we come from light why the need to "evolve"

I have heard various theroies that we are God here to expierence awareness, some say we have the choice too, others say it is mandatory.. others say the counsel we encounter afterdeath guilts us into reincarnating..

honestly I have no idea.. It's recently been brought to my attention the Lords of Karma existing? I thought the soul was it's own judge guess not.. there are plenty of people that have had near death exp's where there souls are front of a council and higher self is advocating for them or they encounter beings that tell them they have to go back.. one of the most frightening was the man that dreamed of different energies fighting over what to do with his soul.. i was told there was a battle of spirit going on in the heavens dont know if either side is really good for us

personally i feel on a grand scale we are here for the expierence.. and possibly have been trapped in this process, maybe even used

[EmergingPath]

One thing this idea explains away that has always been an Achilles Heel to reincarnationists is the fact that more than one person often claims to have been a particular person in a past life. If we are each individual souls, how can more than one person have "past life memories" of being Shakespeare or John Lennon or Mary Magdalene? Yet more than one person claims to be the reincarnation of this or the other famous person all the time.

That does not speak one way or another about reincarnation.

People claim to be Jesus Christ, does that toss out the Christians concept of their 2nd Coming or is it just an individual(s) with some personal ego or mental issues?

[Coming2]

It is my experience that we do have a choice whether to incarnate or not. I think an important thing to remember though is that our time in our true home can be hundreds to thousands of years in length.It is my understanding that in order to ascend we must go through our lifetimes learning the lessons we have set before us. As we grow as incarnated souls we advance further in the spiritual world so the drive to incarnate for some is stronger than others. Some souls find happiness just as they are where others want to grow closer to The Divine Creator of The Universe. I am not saying that those who choose to stay in spirit are not closely connected to the Source of all Things but we can aspire to be completely enfolded in God Light and become part of the whole.

This is my experience as it was in my Life Between Lives Regression...I can only speak from my own personal experience.

[CuriousSnowflake]

Now you realize of course, that your entire post is base on beliefs and assumptions as they've aligned for you over the years. This is pretty much
the case with all of our posts on this subject. We're tossing out the best that we feel we know based on our experience to date.

Oh, of course, that's why the first few sentences of my post all start with "I believe". These are just my ideas, as they are now. They are very different from how they were a few years ago, they will most likely be very different again a few years down the road. For now, though, I find my beliefs to be logical and internally consistent, which I think is the best any of us can do.

The key here is not to be overly committed to any one view over another. For even if we're fairly close to enumerating the actual structure as it truly exists
for our souls, we'll still not be fully aligned with it's significance while still human. Based on current physical limitations we're basically left with extrapolations.
None of which we should be going-to-the-mat to defend.

It seems to me that our tendency to do so is something of a hang-over from a lifetime of being exposed to religious indoctrinations at one level
or another. Pretty much all religions have at their core a set of highly processed beliefs. As the soul goes these beliefs are primarily empty calories.
And yet the religious communities push these beliefs through the pure act of "insistence". They picture this story-lined reality and then
"insist" that it's so.

The bane of most "believers" is the assumption that the narrative is already in place, it's now up to them to align to it.... and then it's their-bad if they don't.

When approaching our spiritual natures it's really, really, really wise to leave this part of our conditioning behind us. Less emphasis on "thought" and
a greater adherence on direct experience. How do we feel when we're around others individually. What are the implications that arise from these connections.
That focus alone could encompass a lifetime... and leave us with an intense appreciation for the manor in which ourselves and others
tend to create through our thoughts and emotional interactions.

Why we are what we are and what we'll eventually become at this state is basically irrelevant. We'll get an upload on that within moments of passing-over.
For our time here now is to observe and to ingest. And to wisely hold everything else with an open palm.... :^)

Nicely put, I agree.

CS

[CuriousSnowflake]

That does not speak one way or another about reincarnation.

People claim to be Jesus Christ, does that toss out the Christians concept of their 2nd Coming or is it just an individual(s) with some personal ego or mental issues?

I personally see it as a flaw in the traditional, one-soul-progressing-through-many-lives reincarnative structure. If, OTOH, you see it as I do, One Soul experiencing many lives, such phenomena as multiple people having past life memories of being Elizabeth I make perfect sense.

CS

[Greenslade]

if we come from light why the need to "evolve"

I have heard various theroies that we are God here to expierence awareness, some say we have the choice too, others say it is mandatory.. others say the counsel we encounter afterdeath guilts us into reincarnating..

honestly I have no idea.. It's recently been brought to my attention the Lords of Karma existing? I thought the soul was it's own judge guess not.. there are plenty of people that have had near death exp's where there souls are front of a council and higher self is advocating for them or they encounter beings that tell them they have to go back.. one of the most frightening was the man that dreamed of different energies fighting over what to do with his soul.. i was told there was a battle of spirit going on in the heavens dont know if either side is really good for us

personally i feel on a grand scale we are here for the expierence.. and possibly have been trapped in this process, maybe even used

That pretty much fits in with my own beliefs and answers so many things for me so thanks for the confirmation, Rosewater. I can get so much from this you wouldn't believe.

As Below, so Above. As much as we would like to think ourselves as Beings of Light and all the other Spiritual techno-babble you want to use here, I doubt very much that this is indeed the case and that account would verify that for me. The bit about death being a barrier has probably been done to death (oops lol) but if it isn't so much of a barrier then how many human traits do we take with us into the Spirit world? Is it like flipping a switch where one minute we're walking talking bags of water with all of which that entails, we die and we suddenly become Beings of Light with the associated sunshine and roses? I remember reading in some of the posts on here that we take a little time to 're-adjust' to becoming Spirit again, mediums have said that people who have passed into Spirit need a little time before coming through to Loved Ones again. If we are taking that into the Spirit world, what else are we taking with us because we choose to?

If we are here to evolve then how much have we really evolved? Let's see, we don't do power struggles any more because that's a huge part of the reason Atlantis fell. Wrong! We don't do genocide. Wrong again! We don't do..... Wrong again. Apart from technologically how much have we really progressed? If we are here to learn, are we really learning or are we stuck in the same mindset whether human or Spirit?

How many times must we go around in these circles before we realise that what we are forgetting is what makes us human? That's what we need to learn and never forget, in human form nor in Spirit.

[Roselove]

your welcome :) glad to someone else is on the same page. It's a shame we were actually more spirtually evolved/aware during the time of Atlantis then we are now.. i think we are just repeating cycles/paradigms/archetypes.

it's interesting you stated "as above so below".. i often wonder if this counsel or another group is misleading us for their own selfish gain.. why else keep ancient knowledge etc from us? just a thought

[StephenK]

Oh, of course, that's why the first few sentences of my post all start with "I believe". These are just my ideas, as they are now. They are very different from how they were a few years ago, they will most likely be very different again a few years down the road. For now, though, I find my beliefs to be logical and internally consistent, which I think is the best any of us can do.
CS
Amen! I very much like how you put that CurioiusSF! I pretty much adhere to the same within myself, with a very wide door open for new as it forms.
But I have to admit... that "new" would have to be very very good.. and would likely come about through direct experience, as it usually does from time to time.

We truly live in a magical universe, but as humans it seems that we drink this in slowly, in contrast to the
pure flood, by comparison, that pours through us when interacting with the other side. :^)

[CuriousSnowflake]

Amen! I very much like how you put that CurioiusSF! I pretty much adhere to the same within myself, with a very wide door open for new as it forms.
But I have to admit... that "new" would have to be very very good.. and would likely come about through direct experience, as it usually does from time to time.

We truly live in a magical universe, but as humans it seems that we drink this in slowly, in contrast to the
pure flood, by comparison, that pours through us when interacting with the other side. :^)

The human experience is what it is, and is as it should and must be. IMHO, the vast majority of us seal ourselves off from the greater part of the truth of Who We Are, not because of some shortcoming, but because doing so is necessary in order for us to experience certain things. If we only experienced light and love, how could we truly appreciate it? Only through the existence of darkness and despair can light and love ever have meaning. Thus, to be human means to sometimes become who we are not (at our deepest level) in order to grok in fullness Who We Are.

CS

[Greenslade]

The human experience is what it is, and is as it should and must be. IMHO, the vast majority of us seal ourselves off from the greater part of the truth of Who We Are, not because of some shortcoming, but because doing so is necessary in order for us to experience certain things. If we only experienced light and love, how could we truly appreciate it? Only through the existence of darkness and despair can light and love ever have meaning. Thus, to be human means to sometimes become who we are not (at our deepest level) in order to grok in fullness Who We Are.

CS

And therein lies the lesson, Curious. Strange, you used the word 'grok'. I read a book many years ago with that very word, can't remember much about it but it certainly stirred my imagination back then. The soup needed a little more salt, and that little bit bit spoke volumes for me. You also use the phrase 'who we are not', it often makes me wonder if many are missing something here because they seek who they are. Sometimes you have to flip the coin, eh?

I often wonder what we would do with the Ancient Knowledge - what is being done. Perhaps we do enough damage with what we have now, busily doing what we shouldn't instead of what we should. Y'see, that's a huge part of the 'bigger picture' for me, we talk about reincarnation and we try to work out the connections between this Life and a Past Life. How many times are things discussed in a wider context, are we willingly putting the blinkers on? Are we prisoners in Plato's Allegory of the Cave by choice or design?

Rosewater, your council or group is perhaps for another thread, but I do understand where you're coming from.

That's the only way to do it, Stephen. We can sit back and watch it or we can get our sleeves rolled up and get stuck it. All aboard the SkyLark :-)

[CuriousSnowflake]

And therein lies the lesson, Curious. Strange, you used the word 'grok'. I read a book many years ago with that very word, can't remember much about it but it certainly stirred my imagination back then. The soup needed a little more salt, and that little bit bit spoke volumes for me. You also use the phrase 'who we are not', it often makes me wonder if many are missing something here because they seek who they are. Sometimes you have to flip the coin, eh?

I often wonder what we would do with the Ancient Knowledge - what is being done. Perhaps we do enough damage with what we have now, busily doing what we shouldn't instead of what we should. Y'see, that's a huge part of the 'bigger picture' for me, we talk about reincarnation and we try to work out the connections between this Life and a Past Life. How many times are things discussed in a wider context, are we willingly putting the blinkers on? Are we prisoners in Plato's Allegory of the Cave by choice or design?

The book was "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein, and "grok" is a word in Martian which roughly means "understanding to the point of becoming One with the knowledge". I like the word for the same reason RH invented it; there is no word in English that has it's meaning. Works well in spiritual contexts.

I am not saying that we have to be evil in order to understand good. What I am saying is that evil has to exist somewhere in order for good to have meaning. So, IMHO, the real problem is the very fact that people believe there is something they need to be. Good or bad, devout or lax, pure or defiled, awake or asleep, none of these are a necessary state, they are merely states, points in a field of contrast we use to define ourselves. Why don't we need to be anything in particular? Because (again, IMHO) if All Is One, then why would there be any requirements? What could Oneness require if IT is already all actual, possible, and impossible things and events? If "God" requires nothing, then the only things we have to do are the things we choose to do.

CS

[Greenslade]

That's the one, Curious. It must have been somewhere around '86 or '87 when I read it, even the title seemed to resonate at the time.

Why don't we need to be anything in particular? I don't believe we do, although many people will disagree. "Not all those who wander are lost", as the man says. Stealing a concept from Douglas Adams (brilliant stuff, you guys should read it) explains much of what you've asked. In a very nutshell, they built a computer called Deep Thought to work out the answer to Life, the Universe and everything. After a few million years it came up with the answer "42". Well, it didn't understand the question in the first place. But if the answer was 42, what was the question? So the white mice commissioned the Mageratheans to build Planet Earth and run a six million year programme to find the answer. Just before the young lady in the cafe in Islington could come up with the answer, the Vogon Constructor Fleet demolished the earth to make way for a hyperspatial bypass. Hands up all of you who said "What???"

And therein lies the answer. We already have the answer right in front of us. We are the answer, you are the answer. Now here's the question - what is the question?

I'm not sure it's enough to simply know evil is there. We all have our dark sides as much as many would like to have it buried away somewhere and never admit its existence. But then, that's assuming you proscribe to there being good and bad - which I don't. I believe that good and bad are human judgements, our perspectives on experiences. Good and bad are not as sharply defined as many would like to think - and the same goes for good and evil. For some it may be enough to only acknowledge the dark exists, but does that then reflect on their understanding and appreciation of the Light? I would say it would, but then each to their own. Letting off steam is much more beneficial after a bad day at work than it is after a good day.

[Rumar]

It's all on your choice whether you reincarnate or not, but then why would one reincarnate if they go to heaven or HOW can they if they went to Hell? This question always makes me think there's a LOT more out there than just Heaven and Hell.

[kaze]

why cant heaven and hell be on earth. there is not a literal heaven or hell. new rewards and punishments on earth everyday.. the afterlife is it, perfect. i got an easy pass, im not worried about the toll. karma doesnt effect the afterlife only life in reality, this reality im typing in

[Roselove]

if we chose our lives, our lessons, our expierences, our relationship dynamics prior to birth why must we pay karma in our incarnations? why reward and punish fated actions? .. If there is truly no judgement why the different levels of the spiritworld based on vibration?

[kaze]

reincarnation seems unreasonable. it cant be proven, really. its also, i think, a stupid idea. you get one life to live, never ask for a mulligan.

[Coming2]

Greenslade!! I am a huge HitchHiker fan...Personally I felt that they never asked the right question. Perhaps that is the reason so many stay confused today.....we might not know what the right question is when seeking personal fulfillment and serenity. Personally I know things I desire to learn but often times I feel I am not asking for the right thing. I have read so many times when contacting Angels, Guides and ArchAngels we must be extremely clear about what we are asking. We must know exactly what we seek. What I ask is that if we really knew what we sought would be asking in the first place??

[Greenslade]

Always a lot more, Rumar. But then, to some, that's the fun of it.

Why can't it be, Kaze? Heaven and hell are your perspective, so here you are. Heaven and hell are on earth - if that's what you believe in.

I don't believe it happens that way, Rosewater. I'm not a big fan of karma and the more I look at it the less it makes any sense. And the reason for the different levels of vibration? It's not about judgement, it's your own personal vibration. A higher level doesn't mean better it just means further along a Path. We're all going to end up at the same place in the end, it's just that some start off later than others or take a different route.

Coming2, one of the things I have understood for a long time is the need to ask the right questions. When I first started contacting my Guides the answers were usually confusing and didn't help much. Then I asked the right question.

"What should I be asking?"

[Coming2]

Rose..Ultimately I think Karma comes down to free will. Even though we have planned a life beforehand we are only given the blueprints, we choose the ultimate outcome. Once we incarnate again we still have different paths to choose in every situation that we face. Based on that choice our paths take different routes. When we reunite with our soul group we will be patted on the back for some decisions and have to work through others that took us down a different path. I am not really sure how I feel about predetermined destiny. I believe God knows the outcome of all things but again gives us the choice on which path to take.

JMO....

[kaze]

like tupac said, and i believe

"my only fear of death, is coming back to this b**** reincarnated"

mother nature+father time+love

when does the storm stop? the storm on the senses. you remain telepathically conscious after death. with reincarnation there would need to be a ultimate goal from god. which there is not. its all about love.

[Roselove]

coming2 - I agree with you we do make cons choices however those choices are always determined by our awareness/expierences which are prefated. Ulimately we are products of our conditioning and enviroment. And if souls are aware of karma why pick roles as immoral people in the first place? i.e. Hitler's rise was predicted prior to his birth.. by several astrologers (i know there are some prophets as well but those readings are too general so won't include them)



Free will is an illusion, biologist says (http://www.physorg.com/news186830615.html) PhysOrg - March 3, 2010

Three different models explain the causal mechanism of free will and the flow of information between unconscious neural activity and conscious thought (GES = genes, environment, stochasticism). In A, the intuitive model, there is no causal component for will. Will influences conscious thought, which in turn influences unconscious neural activity to direct behavior. In B, a causal component of will is introduced: unconscious neural activity and GES. But now will loses its freedom. In C, the model that Cashmore advocates, will is dispensed with. Conscious thought is simply a reflection of, rather than an influence on, unconscious neural activity, which directs behavior. The dotted arrow 2 in C indicates a subservient role of conscious thought in directing behavior.
When biologist Anthony Cashmore claims that the concept of free will is an illusion, he's not breaking any new ground. At least as far back as the ancient Greeks, people have wondered how humans seem to have the ability to make their own personal decisions in a manner lacking any causal component other than their desire to "will" something. But Cashmore, Professor of Biology at the University of Pennsylvania, says that many biologists today still cling to the idea of free will, and reject the idea that we are simply conscious machines, completely controlled by a combination of our chemistry and external environmental forces.
Cashmore's argument is that free will is an illusion derived from consciousness, but consciousness has an evolutionary advantage of conferring the illusion of responsibility. So what is the point of publicizing the fact that we have no free will, and letting everyone off the hook of individual responsibility? Cashmore says that, as researchers deepen their understanding of the molecular basis of human behavior, it will become increasingly difficult to entertain the fallacy of free will.
In a recent study, Cashmore has argued that a belief in free will is akin to religious beliefs, since neither complies with the laws of the physical world. One of the basic premises of biology and biochemistry is that biological systems are nothing more than a bag of chemicals that obey chemical and physical laws. Generally, we have no problem with the ³bag of chemicals² notion when it comes to bacteria, plants, and similar entities. So why is it so difficult to say the same about humans or other ³higher level² species, when we¹re all governed by the same laws?
No causal mechanism
As Cashmore explains, the human brain acts at both the conscious level as well as the unconscious. It¹s our consciousness that makes us aware of our actions, giving us the sense that we control them, as well. But even without this awareness, our brains can still induce our bodies to act, and studies have indicated that consciousness is something that follows unconscious neural activity. Just because we are often aware of multiple paths to take, that doesn¹t mean we actually get to choose one of them based on our own free will. As the ancient Greeks asked, by what mechanism would we be choosing? The physical world is made of causes and effects - ³nothing comes from nothing² - but free will, by its very definition, has no physical cause. The Roman philosopher and poet Lucretius, in reference to this problem of free will, noted that the Greek philosophers concluded that atoms "randomly swerve" - the likely source of this movement being the numerous Greek gods.
Today, as researchers gain a better understanding of the molecular details underlying consciousness, some people think that we may discover a molecular mechanism responsible for free will - but Cashmore doesn¹t think so. Such a discovery, he says, would require a new physical law that breaks the causal laws of nature. As it is, the only ³wild card² that allows any room for maneuvering outside of genetics and one¹s environment is the inherent uncertainty of the physical properties of matter, and even this stochastic element is beyond our conscious control. (However, it can help explain why identical twins growing up in the same environment are unique individuals.)
To put it simply, free will just doesn¹t fit with how the physical world works. Cashmore compares a belief in free will to an earlier belief in vitalism - the belief that there are forces governing the biological world that are distinct from those governing the physical world. Vitalism was discarded more than 100 years ago, being replaced with evidence that biological systems obey the laws of chemistry and physics, not special biological laws for living things. I would like to convince biologists that a belief in free will is nothing other than a continuing belief in vitalism (or, as I say, a belief in magic), Cashmore told PhysOrg.com.
Conscious Deception
It all seems quite rational, so why is our lack of free will so difficult to accept for many people? Cashmore explains that there are several compelling reasons that people have for believing in free will, not the least of which is that we have a constant awareness of making decisions that seem to be driven by our own volition. In addition, free will is a very useful concept when it comes to the justice system; we take responsibility for our criminal actions and accordingly, are eligible for personal punishment, which is deemed to be necessary for protecting society.
However, Cashmore argues that there are deeper explanations for why we think we have free will. He thinks that there must be a genetic basis for consciousness and the associated belief in free will. Consciousness has an evolutionary selective advantage: it provides us with the illusion of responsibility, which is beneficial for society, if not for individuals as well. In this sense, consciousness is our 'preview function' that comforts us into thinking that we are in control of what we will (or at least may) do ahead of time. As Cashmore notes, the irony is that the very existence of these 'free will genes' is predicated on their ability to con us into believing in free will and responsibility. However, in reality, all behavioral decisions are nothing more than a reflection of our genetic and environmental history.
"Whereas the impressions are that we are making 'free' conscious decisions, the reality is that consciousness is simply a state of awareness that reflects the input signals, and these are an unavoidable consequence of GES [genes, environment, and stochasticism]," Cashmore explained.
Few neurobiologists would argue with the notion that consciousness influences behavior by acting through unconscious neural activity, he said. More controversial is the notion that consciousness plays a relatively minor role in governing our behavior. The conscious mind is conceivably more a mechanism of following unconscious neural activity than it is one of directing such activity. I find it interesting to compare this line of thinking with that of Freud, who created a controversy by suggesting that the unconscious mind played a role in our behavior. The way of thinking regarding these matters now has moved to the extent that some are questioning what role, if any, the conscious mind plays in directing behavior. Namely, Freud was right to an extent that was much greater than he realized.
Can¹t Be Held Responsible
Perhaps the most obvious impact of this paradigm shift will be on our judicial system, in which the notions of free will and responsibility form an integral component. Currently, in order to be found guilty, a criminal must be considered responsible for his actions; otherwise, he can be found not guilty by reason of insanity.
Cashmore disagrees with these rules, noting that psychiatric research is finding its way more and more into the courts and causing time-wasting debates. (For example, is alcoholism a disease? Are sex crimes an addiction?) "Where is the logic in debating an individual¹s level of responsibility, when the reality is that none of us are biologically responsible for our actions?" he said.
Cashmore proposes a change, based on ³the elimination of the illogical concept that individuals are in control of their behavior in a manner that is something other than a reflection of their genetic makeup and their environmental history."
He says that psychiatrists and other experts on human behavior should not be involved in initial judicial proceedings. The jury should simply determine whether or not a defendant is guilty of committing a crime, and not be concerned with mental issues. Then, if the defendant is found guilty, a court-appointed panel of experts would advise on the most appropriate punishment and treatment.
Cashmore argues that, even though individuals are not biologically responsible for their actions, in order to minimize criminal activity, people should still be held accountable, and be punished when necessary. Such punishment is rationalized on the grounds that it will serve as an incentive (an environmental influence) not to participate in criminal behavior.
"Here I introduce the practice of 'I am sorry about this but I am going to have to beat you,'" Cashmore said. "This punishment is rationalized in the sense that it serves as a lesson to individuals not to break the law. So people would be held accountable for their actions, even though they are not biologically responsible for such actions. This punishment may involve fines or placing people in prison.
Such punishment should not reflect any sense of retribution, and given this I do not personally see how one could continue to impose the death penalty - the alleged effectiveness of such a penalty presumably being far outweighed by its unfairness. The exact way in which one balances the presumptive requirement for punishment, and the lack of biological responsibility, would indeed be difficult, and would require much discussion within the legal system and society as a whole."
He said that tailoring punishment on an individual basis is presently done, at least to some extent.
"Why is it important to make a change? Because increasingly the legal system is being forced to confront the reality that people's behavior is governed by nothing other than their biological history: their genes, their environment and a degree of stochasticism (if you wish, a degree of chance). The legal system is increasingly seen to be a farce, with lawyers spending endless time and money debating this nonsensical question of how responsible or not their clients are. Why nonsensical? Because no one is biologically responsible for their actions. As Francis Crick said, 'Dream as we may, reality knocks relentlessly at the door.' And as a result of the rapid and ongoing progress in neuroscience, the reality that individual behavior is governed by one's genetic and environmental history is becoming increasingly apparent."


more - http://www.crystalinks.com/freewill.html

[Roselove]

Greenslade - just a note on vibrations people that suffer from depression, commit suicide, are ill, have anxiety etc usually are lower vibrationally... you can be aware, "further along the path" but still suffer from these feelings

[Coming2]

Rose thanks for the info, it was interesting...It is always interesting when I read things that are based in psychology because of the contrast between psych and spiritual...inevitably they go hand in hand but the psych world misses so much in trying to explain the unexplainable.That made sense though. As far as conditioning is concerned, I agree in alot of ways. I guess the only comment I can make about Karma in relation to people like Hitler...and again this is just my view and is open for debate...

I dont know that I believe that people are born inherently evil. It kind of takes away from the thought process that the afterlife is nothing but purity and love. Again I believe that we are given sets of choices and the basis of those choices shape our lives. Again with the free will. I truly believe in cause and effect/like begets like/we reap what we sow and we cannot have light without darkness. Is that really Karma though?? For every negative action there is a Karmic debt to be paid?? For every good deed done is payback into the Karmic bank?? I am just throwing this out there. I love banter like this because it always makes me question what it is exactly that I believe but at the end of the day I dont find much importance in what I believe but more so how I act and react in the world around me.

Do I think Hitler chose his path?? Not in the sense that he got together with his spiritual team and said "I think I will come back as a sadistic monster"....I think he did, however, say I am going to put these really hard lessons in place and hope that in my human form I will make the right choices. Obviously he shaped his own outcome by his actions, reactions and personal choices. Heck lets not even delve into the psychiatric waters and his mental illness!

I am rambling now...love how this thread has evolved!! Your thoughts??

[Coming2]

On depression and lower vibrations.....

From someone who has had personal experience with this I have found that the depression stems from being disconnected from the spirit. When I went through my depression years ago I was desperately trying to build a better relationship with God. As someone who has been blessed with certain gifts I was not aware that they were gifts but instead stayed confused because I had no guidance. I dont know that I would say that my vibration was lower though. I resonated on a higher vibration than some really healthy people but was so lost and depressed that I didnt know how to access my own joy. In no way am I comparing myself to any prophet but when I think about some prophets from the Bible they were of the highest vibration but suffered miserable depression, loneliness and separation from God...Again thats just my opinion and it was probably way off topic!! lol

[kaze]

you cant see me, but never over look me

"You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams."

"Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You."

"We are all a little weird and life's a little weird, and when we find someone whose weirdness is compatible with ours, we join up with them and fall in mutual weirdness and call it love."
— Dr. Seuss

and many more

[*whitefeather]

if we come from light why the need to "evolve"

I have heard various theroies that we are God here to expierence awareness, some say we have the choice too, others say it is mandatory.. others say the counsel we encounter afterdeath guilts us into reincarnating..

honestly I have no idea.. It's recently been brought to my attention the Lords of Karma existing? I thought the soul was it's own judge guess not.. there are plenty of people that have had near death exp's where there souls are front of a council and higher self is advocating for them or they encounter beings that tell them they have to go back.. one of the most frightening was the man that dreamed of different energies fighting over what to do with his soul.. i was told there was a battle of spirit going on in the heavens dont know if either side is really good for us

personally i feel on a grand scale we are here for the expierence.. and possibly have been trapped in this process, maybe even used

Several people I know have shared their after life memories with me, so this is what I believe too Rosewater. Freewill doesn't exist.

[Greenslade]

" the reality that individual behavior is governed by one's genetic and environmental history is becoming increasingly apparent." As quoted from Rosewater's post.

I don't believe that's true. I live in the same town Dennis Neilson grew up, had the same background - close to. I used to play with his family when I was a child and actually met him a few times. According to much I have read I should have done much the same things and I know there are those who should be doing the same. But I made a conscious choice not to.

I didn't say having higher vibrations made everything perfect, Rosewater. We're vibrating in the 3rd dimension, and nothing is ever going to be perfect. However, angels, ascended masters and the like are at different dimensions - this is what I meant. Our own vibrations can be slightly higher than someone who isn't Spiritual, but they're still in the band for the 3rd.

I believe Hitler's Soul knew exactly what it was going to do before he reincarnated, I believe that for all of us. Many usually ask around now - "why would anyone's Soul do that?". If you want to understand Spirit you have to think like Spirit. What we see as good or bad, Spirit doesn't. Why would Spirit chose to incarnate as a bad person? Why would Spirit chose to reincarnate at all, when it's the equivalent of being a deaf, dumb, blind, brain-dead torso?

We have Free Will, Whitefeather. Our Path is agreed with us before we become incarnate, the details are left up to us. You incarnate into a certain house with certain people, but you can change the colour of the bathroom if you wish. However, I do have something that really irks me about that process, as in before we become incarnate that I have never got to the back of. I believe it's a Spirit thing that has stayed with me. Whiles most people wax lyrical about how wonderful the Afterlife is, I know differently.

[Summerland]

Greenslade, your last comment has me a bit baffled.What did you find so distressing about the afterlife? Are your memories of it so very different than mine? Considering our conversations I would have thought that it would have been a similar experience. You can always PM, if you would prefer.

[grazier]

The word Reincarnation means to make new again.

It is said to be when the Soul leaves the body and is freed at the time of death of the physical body to come forth again to a new body. When one dies from the physical body I feel that the Soul is what goes to the Light to be re born or to come to a new body for more in the body learning’s and experiences. That said I do wonder on having a choice where we come to or that we might or might not want to come back.


Do we have a choice on where we come back to ?


Do we have a choice to maybe NOT come back ?




Lynn


Lynn



Hello Lynn,

I agree with what most of the others say, I do think that we have a choice, but it is a Soulic choice, not a physical choice. We choose to do what the Spirit needs.

You might find 'Conversations With God' by Neil Donald Walsch an interesting book and very enlightening on a lot of issues. It offers a whole new perspective in some cases.

Blessings

grazier:hug3:

[Roselove]

Greenslade - what I think was meant with that statement was your own expierence, your own family life etc. A schoolyard bully and someone not so popular may grow up in the same enviroment, encounter each other etc but the expierences that shape them and make them who they are.. are very different

I didn't say you did, when I was refering to different dimensions humans can go to in the afterlife I wasn't talking about the Angelic Realms etc, I was talking about how your base vibration determines which afterlife realm avialable to us (so they say) we can enter so it would be unfair for someone to enter a lower realm if the contend of their character is good but they died in a grief stricken state

[Roselove]

Coming2 - I agree with you I don't believe anyone is born good or evil I think we become who we are based on our conditioning/expierences (i.e. orphans in thirld world countries become robbers to survive the streets eat live , they are reacting to their circumtances).. if we are limited to sets of choices that still doesn't give us free will to go outside of them. I think karmic reward and punishment is too black and white.

As for darkness and light, if we are light who says we need to know and learn darkness? for what? if we are all one, isn't that duality? seperating?

I could see karma more for lessons showing where you maybe need to heal your wounds, transcend conditioning but that conditioning was put in by fate so? lol

As far as Hitler goes his views were influenced by the theosophical society and it is well known he and his cronies were into the occult/New Age etc Aryan race is a concept from Atlantis.. I think the riech etc was destined to happen he did exactly what he was supposed to but that's just my opnion based on my own personal reasearch.

[Roselove]

coming2 - on depression that may very well be the case but every shaman, psyhic etc I've encountered has talked about how my crown chakra (our connection) is spinning like crazy lol it's connected yet i still suffer from depression, anxiety and ptsd.


whitefeather- that's what I feel like I can't say for sure, I'm interested in hearing what they've told you! thanks :)

[Greenslade]

Summerland,
I just don't have the same views on the AfterLife as everyone else. I read your post just before I had to go to work, and I had company telling me to Walk that Path - if I wanted to. I don't know why but even without that voice there is a part of me that wants to - or needs to. If you want to do this in an open thread, I'd be Honoured to have your footprints next to mine. Somehow I think it might explain one or two things that other people have on their minds.

Rosewater, the Angelic realms are the same as the dimensions - there are twelve of them. But depending on your base vibration, doesn't that sound a little like shades of heaven and hell? I believe we all have the same base vibration as you call it, the only difference in our vibrations is so that we resonate on a certain dimension depending on where we need to be on our personal Paths. Just right now we're vibrating on the third, maybe in some 'next Life' you're going to be a Spirit Guide but you'll vibrate on - say - the fifth or sixth. I don't believe the realms are higher or lower, just different.

Why do we need to know or learn darkness or Light? If we are Light then why are we here, busily learning away? If we are One and we - as a collective - have learnt everything then what's the point? It's not about learning, it's about experience. Some of us might want to experience darkness in order to understand it. You can read all the books you want about driving and fill your head full of knowledge until it leaks, it's not until you get behind the wheel that you really understand what it feels like for you personally.

I'm with you on Hitler though. I believe he was doing what all of us do really, we do what we think we should. We've done Atlantis, two world wars and whatever else, and we still haven't really gained much apart from more sophisticated ways of killing each other. The things that brought us to Atlantis in the first place are still very much with us today.

[Roselove]

Greenslade as far as I know there are different dimensions we humans can enter in the afterlife, some lower (some say simliar to what hell would be or at least less pleasent then the higher ones), some higher. Angelic Dimensions are much much higher than those. I'm not sure that we all enter Earth with the same base vibration (though I agree on a soul level as third dimensional entities it's simliar) as some souls still carry their past wounds etc. And I know vibrations can be raised!, I've seen evidence of it in vibrational healing of others.

and of course it's about expierence, becoming aware I agree.. As I stated in my intial post I think that's the intial reason "God/source" split.. but that doesn't explain why there is an ascension process, higher beings, those beings on higher dimensions.. then either so I really can't say. wouldn't we all be "equal"

[Summerland]

Summerland,
I just don't have the same views on the AfterLife as everyone else. I read your post just before I had to go to work, and I had company telling me to Walk that Path - if I wanted to. I don't know why but even without that voice there is a part of me that wants to - or needs to. If you want to do this in an open thread, I'd be Honoured to have your footprints next to mine. Somehow I think it might explain one or two things that other people have on their minds.

Rosewater, the Angelic realms are the same as the dimensions - there are twelve of them. But depending on your base vibration, doesn't that sound a little like shades of heaven and hell? I believe we all have the same base vibration as you call it, the only difference in our vibrations is so that we resonate on a certain dimension depending on where we need to be on our personal Paths. Just right now we're vibrating on the third, maybe in some 'next Life' you're going to be a Spirit Guide but you'll vibrate on - say - the fifth or sixth. I don't believe the realms are higher or lower, just different.

Why do we need to know or learn darkness or Light? If we are Light then why are we here, busily learning away? If we are One and we - as a collective - have learnt everything then what's the point? It's not about learning, it's about experience. Some of us might want to experience darkness in order to understand it. You can read all the books you want about driving and fill your head full of knowledge until it leaks, it's not until you get behind the wheel that you really understand what it feels like for you personally.

I'm with you on Hitler though. I believe he was doing what all of us do really, we do what we think we should. We've done Atlantis, two world wars and whatever else, and we still haven't really gained much apart from more sophisticated ways of killing each other. The things that brought us to Atlantis in the first place are still very much with us today.

I suppose I am stuck on the apparent desire to dissect it all. To me the different realms are simply different areas that we 'fit' into after the bodies die. If we have chosen to live our lives selfishly, then we reside on one of the lower levels. We have the ability to create on the other side and we create what we feel that we deserve. If we have tried to live in love and light, then we can create a more beautiful environ to be in . We can appear as we did in a previous life as it suits us. Upon meeting a 'friend' from a previous incarnation, we will appear as we were in that life. We can appear in our natural state as our gossamer soul, shimmering in our varied colors that are unlike any color on this plane. We can communicate by blending and flowing into each other with nothing to hide. It is a complete merging of our beings and is filled with joy. There may be 'counclils' that help us to judge ourselves if we are reluctant to do so. And we can feel sorrow for those left behind. Even the most evolved being can feel empathy and sorrow for those left behind. We can try to let them know that we are alright and happy, but our vibrations are so different that those on the earth plane can't hear us. If we have passed to a lower plane (realm) maybe our communication attempts cause lightbulbs to shatter or even increase their feeling of loss and grieving.
Perhaps the Oversoul that I have seen posters talk about and that I have read about is our TwinFlame,Soulmate that everyone keeps searching for. It is our other half that we search so desperately for because it is the part of us that remains in the higher realm. It is what completes us. The human that we keep searching for here, the one and only who can make us happy is a person that we have loved and lost many times.
Soul groups are ones that we have planned to reincarnate with. It doesn't mean that we all incarnate in the same area, but at some point in our lives we all will come together to work or accomplish something, perhaps work that we did in a prior life. Or perhaps we just lived in the same era and were living in the same place and had a bond of that sort.
And to head this whole entire thing? The Mastermind? Is it a disinterested being who just set the whole thing in motion? From my viewpoint an entity who took such loving care with all the intricate, multi-leveled machinations of all that we see and what we cannot see, is not a judgemental entity. Everything did not have to be created with such beauty. If there are ugly parts, we have created those, not the One who is in charge. All a person has to do is look at the flowing shapes of the star nurseries and know that beauty is intentional.
All in all, this is MY concept in a nutshell. It strictly is from MY experiences and memories. These are MY sacred beliefs and guides me thru MY life. I operate on many different levels. I can know all of this and still enjoy watching TV and reading novels. I can still rail against governments for having weapons such as HAARP, perhaps because I remember similar weapons in Atlantis. Maybe I didn't object enough then. The outside world HAS to play a part in our lives because we chose to be born into this time for a reason. We can't ignore it and happily wish it out of existence because we don't want it in our REALITY.
So this is the most that I have written at one time and I myself, would probably get bored by reading this much at one time. However this is similar to one of the upper realms (planes) where we can reveal our true selves.
And to reiterate : this is MY belief system. No one else has to subscribe to it or any part of it. It doesn't make it true, but it is MY truth.

[kaze]

why even contemplate reincarnation.

that is the last thing i would ever want. to be reincarnated back here, back to earth as a human

but whatever, no one can make you change, life goes on

[Summerland]

why even contemplate reincarnation.

that is the last thing i would ever want. to be reincarnated back here, back to earth as a human

but whatever no one can make you change, life goes on

That is your belief, kaze. And what is bad about being reincarnated here on earth? It gives us the opportunity to accomplish so much good, to love, and to reach out and help others. Sure, bad things happen, but we can choose not to be one of those who are creating or causing the bad and ugly. We can turn a blind eye and say,"Not my problem" but it is if we choose to do nothing about it. Once aware of it, it does become YOUR problem.

[kaze]

ya, so then teach the younger generation one universal truth, that god has spoke.

believe you will conscious forever and you will be, just not forever with a 'body'

[inspirit]

The way I look at it, either the personality survives and you are resurrected in heaven, or the personality dies and you are reincarnated as a new person with a new personality. I don't see there being any choice in the case of reincarnation since that isn't even really you anymore. I think the only choice you have is if you survive or not.

[StephenK]

Here's what happens when you pass-on...

You keep being you...

You're no longer the child that you once were... you've already died to that...

you're no longer the teenager who walked the halls of your highschool.. that part of you has already passed-away...

You are who you are now... within a context of current experience.... this too will come to an end..

You will always be you... at any given time that you're finding yourself in... this also includes your being you the day you depart from this lifetime...

You are not your history!! Your history may shape how you currently think, but once you change context those thoughts change as well...

You don't confuse your high-chair-diaper years with your current need to make your credit card payment....

So life-time after life-time is dealt with in this way.... your past lives become memories to your spiritual present... but none of those past
lives are you...

...just as your infancy has given-way to the "you" that you know now...

This is what being in the Now is all about... at no point have you ever been otherwise...! :^)

[CuriousSnowflake]

That's the one, Curious. It must have been somewhere around '86 or '87 when I read it, even the title seemed to resonate at the time.

Why don't we need to be anything in particular? I don't believe we do, although many people will disagree. "Not all those who wander are lost", as the man says. Stealing a concept from Douglas Adams (brilliant stuff, you guys should read it) explains much of what you've asked. In a very nutshell, they built a computer called Deep Thought to work out the answer to Life, the Universe and everything. After a few million years it came up with the answer "42". Well, it didn't understand the question in the first place. But if the answer was 42, what was the question? So the white mice commissioned the Mageratheans to build Planet Earth and run a six million year programme to find the answer. Just before the young lady in the cafe in Islington could come up with the answer, the Vogon Constructor Fleet demolished the earth to make way for a hyperspatial bypass. Hands up all of you who said "What???"
My favorite quote from that series: "Most of the people living on it (the Earth) were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small, green pieces of paper, which is odd, because on the whole, it wasn’t the small, green pieces of paper which were unhappy." :D

And therein lies the answer. We already have the answer right in front of us. We are the answer, you are the answer. Now here's the question - what is the question?

I'm not sure it's enough to simply know evil is there. We all have our dark sides as much as many would like to have it buried away somewhere and never admit its existence. But then, that's assuming you proscribe to there being good and bad - which I don't. I believe that good and bad are human judgements, our perspectives on experiences. Good and bad are not as sharply defined as many would like to think - and the same goes for good and evil. For some it may be enough to only acknowledge the dark exists, but does that then reflect on their understanding and appreciation of the Light? I would say it would, but then each to their own. Letting off steam is much more beneficial after a bad day at work than it is after a good day.
Since I am in quote tossing mood, here's another, this time from the Immortal Bard. "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

CS

[WhiteDevil]

makes me wonder, if you do choose, why do people choose to be ugly?, or born in poor or wortorn countries? or why would you choose to be born with terminal illness? or disability?


I've always had a thought that these could maybe be punishments for bad things you did in a previous life? who knows. this world could actually be the hell so many christian god followers are afraid of.

[Internal Queries]

makes me wonder, if you do choose, why do people choose to be ugly?, or born in poor or wortorn countries? or why would you choose to be born with terminal illness? or disability?


I've always had a thought that these could maybe be punishments for bad things you did in a previous life? who knows. this world could actually be the hell so many christian god followers are afraid of.


i don't believe that we choose. i imagine that the Universe creates spontaneously from and with vibration and we merely manifest as the Universe vibrates into matter the variations on the theme of "human" (and everything else). we are no different than flowers, cave crystals or stars. flowers, crystals and stars don't choose and they aren't formed as punishment or reward.

[Baldr44]

i don't believe that we choose. i imagine that the Universe creates spontaneously from and with vibration and we merely manifest as the Universe vibrates into matter the variations on the theme of "human" (and everything else). we are no different than flowers, cave crystals or stars. flowers, crystals and stars don't choose and they aren't formed as punishment or reward.

The whole thrust of the physical experience is to experience in third dimension what we are limited to experiencing in the planes outside of 3D. In other words through the five senses: touch, taste, smell, hear and see can we fully manifest the expression of ourselves, just as nature fully manifests the expression of itself in everything we see all around us in the objective world. This is not limited to just a sight experience but involves the ability to experience every aspect of nature. We can touch, taste, feel, hear and smell the many attributes of nature.

Now, this discussion so far has to some degree put the need for a physical experience in the objective world in perspective but there is far more to the story. Next in the chronological order of this discussion comes describing the reasons for physicality outside of the sensory experience.

The whole of the physical experience was for the purpose of enhancing consciousness, individually and collectively. There was a time way back in the history of civilization (not necessarily ours) when man, descending upon the plane of the earth, was fully conscious of his entire being: body, soul and mind. That is, man was connected to his soul-mind, his Higher Mind, a Christian example is the story of Adam and Eve. But over the course of time all down through the age’s man began to lose touch with his inner self as he learned to become more and more reliant on his senses and the sensory pleasures. As man moved further and further away from his super-intelligence the race as a whole suffered the results of cause and effect. Instead of moving along man’s natural progression of evolution, man went backwards and stalled the evolutionary race as a whole. In some cases entire races became extinct or were scattered across the lands becoming either new races or meshing into other existing races.

Now, at this point if you dare to disagree just take a look around you to see the state of our current affairs in all manners of speaking which speaks for itself. Also, do bear in mind that this discussion is an abbreviated synopsis of the events that occurred. Such discussion would require a book – a feat others have already taken on. The important point of this discussion is that while man was busy going backwards in his evolutionary process he was affecting the race as a whole which has, thus, required many incarnations.

So, in other words, yes we do chose to experience consciousness on earth in all of its many human forms. We are indeed in a vibratory state but not spontaniously created in that sense. We are infinite spiritual consciousness, we select what and how we wish to experience this human reality.

[Internal Queries]

So, in other words, yes we do chose to experience consciousness on earth in all of its many human forms. We are indeed in a vibratory state but not spontaniously created in that sense. We are infinite spiritual consciousness, we select what and how we wish to experience this human reality.

that is your belief and i suppose it provides you with some sense of control. i, however, do not believe as you do. i do believe that the vibrations from which we manifest are eternal, the variations of them being infinite and the continuous exploration of vibrational variables is the reason why it appears that we reincarnate. IMO, you are no more in control of how you manifest as selfhood than is a worm or a comet. it is my belief that you spontaneously manifest as the Universal vibration creates you, the conclusions you draw within the context of your belief system being part of that spontaneous manifestation.

[Baldr44]

that is your belief and i suppose it provides you with some sense of control. i, however, do not believe as you do. i do believe that the vibrations from which we manifest are eternal, the variations of them being infinite and the continuous exploration of vibrational variables is the reason why it appears that we reincarnate. IMO, you are no more in control of how you manifest as selfhood than is a worm or a comet. it is my belief that you spontaneously manifest as the Universal vibration creates you, the conclusions you draw within the context of your belief system being part of that spontaneous manifestation.

There are of course many who believe as I do. However it is simple to agree to disagree. I will of course look into your belief as I havn't heard of such. I'm not concerned with control just my incarnation, my path that I have chosen. All those case studies I've read on reincarnation were lies? Edgar Cayce lied to us, oh my!! All of the spirit guides and teachers just make this stuff up? My years of study and research down the toilet, a 5.000 word thesis on reincarnation for my masters degree all lies. This is more than I can stand. My 10,000 word dissertaton in progress for my Ph.D. on consciousness all for naught. My Doctorate in metaphysical counseling down the tubes. Sorry but I really don't buy it.

I do believe that I'd rather come back as a comet as opposed to a worm. I'm sure if I were the worm, someone would take me fishing with them.

[Internal Queries]

There are of course many who believe as I do. However it is simple to agree to disagree. I will of course look into your belief as I havn't heard of such. I'm not concerned with control just my incarnation, my path that I have chosen.

I do believe that I'd rather come back as a comet as opposed to a worm. I'm sure if I were the worm, someone would take me fishing with them.


lol well, you can't chose to be a worm or a comet since the vibration from which you manifest isn't vibrating energy for worms or comets or anything else. it's vibrating "human: version Balder44".

the reason you haven't heard of a belief system such as mine is because, as far as i know, there are no ancient holy text, no perfect masters, no books or tapes channelled or new age gurus expressing this perspective, though there are a great many people who express a belief in the "Will of God".

i do not believe in deities so the "Will of God" meme isn't exactly what i'm envisioning, though it's close. strip away the cultural collective ego projection which deities are and you might get an inkling of what i'm "seeing". we can say the Universe is conscious because we can say that we are conscious and so are all other life forms, some more sentient than others. all those life forms are manifesting the infinite variations of the consciousness of the Universe and none can be other than as the specific vibrations manifests them. it's not so much the "Will of God", for pure energy has no ego and no will, but energy/vibration manifests AS consciousness simply because consciousness is a possiblity and all things are possible in "God".

oh and as you're working on your "present" and "future" incarnation(s) ... that is the Universe spontaneously manifesting you working on your "present" and "future" variations. of course, Time isn't always what it seems so concepts of linier manifestations as implied in the reincarnation belief system may be moot.

[StephenK]

My years of study and research down the toilet, a 5.000 word thesis on reincarnation for my masters degree all lies. This is more than I can stand. My 10,000 word dissertaton in progress for my Ph.D. on consciousness all for naught. My Doctorate in metaphysical counseling down the tubes.

You wouldn't have been the first to be wasting time on stuff that likely doesn't matter.. The religious community is loaded with folks who have
wasted a lifetime on provably misleading imagery via texts that are based on absolute forgery.

My recommendation is to let go and just be... study the life that surrounds you and integrate with your love ones in a way that's mutually beneficial.

The Moment you Die.... so much of what confuses us about the "other side" will be made instantly clear within the context of our greater being... we
simply don't have the tools on this side to legitimately bridge that gap...

I've finally concluded that this life is essentially about feeling around in the dark in order to find love via fresh ways that are uniquely customizable to each individuals experience.

When you "study" what others are saying you are mostly being exposed to an angle that they've created for themselves... and it's limited to their
current views at the time... it likely changed some since they wrote what they were thinking to that point...

A heavily intellectual approach to this study will clearly have us chasing our tail... (certainly did for me for many years!) An intuition based approach
in regards to what's comfortably within our reach is proving to be a far more superior experience in relation to our limited time within this context...

Study of course... but don't commit to the myriad of contradictory beliefs that are so prevalent among those who project what they're thinking...
what a mess we become when we're whipped about by the endless amount of stuff that others keep tossing about callously as though they're absolutes...!

[7luminaries]

You wouldn't have been the first to be wasting time on stuff that likely doesn't matter.. The religious community is loaded with folks who have
wasted a lifetime on provably misleading imagery via texts that are based on absolute forgery.

My recommendation is to let go and just be... study the life that surrounds you and integrate with your love ones in a way that's mutually beneficial.

The Moment you Die.... so much of what confuses us about the "other side" will be made instantly clear within the context of our greater being... we
simply don't have the tools on this side to legitimately bridge that gap...

I've finally concluded that this life is essentially about feeling around in the dark in order to find love via fresh ways that are uniquely customizable to each individuals experience.

When you "study" what others are saying you are mostly being exposed to an angle that they've created for themselves... and it's limited to their
current views at the time... it likely changed some since they wrote what they were thinking to that point...

A heavily intellectual approach to this study will clearly have us chasing our tail... (certainly did for me for many years!) An intuition based approach
in regards to what's comfortably within our reach is proving to be a far more superior experience in relation to our limited time within this context...

Study of course... but don't commit to the myriad of contradictory beliefs that are so prevalent among those who project what they're thinking...
what a mess we become when we're whipped about by the endless amount of stuff that others keep tossing about callously as though they're absolutes...!

I really like the bits about love and intuition being foundational.
Though yes I do believe we choose. My own remembrance of my past life...and it is just the "highlights", LOL...seems to bear that out. Instead of being oppressed by society, by religion, by war..I chose a life where I'd have to carve out my own meaning and where I could choose to be myself rather than end up as I did last time (dying young during war).

Even though you take **** in either case, it is **** I've chosen to take (LOL)...so there, ha ha...
Cheers,
7L

[Internal Queries]

All those case studies I've read on reincarnation were lies? Edgar Cayce lied to us, oh my!! All of the spirit guides and teachers just make this stuff up? My years of study and research down the toilet, a 5.000 word thesis on reincarnation for my masters degree all lies. This is more than I can stand. My 10,000 word dissertaton in progress for my Ph.D. on consciousness all for naught. My Doctorate in metaphysical counseling down the tubes. Sorry but I really don't buy it.


oh dear! yikes! unwind your boxers! (((hugs))) you can believe anything you want and no one has lied to anyOne. it's a difference of perspective only. and if you were so inclined to briefly consider my perspective "buyable" you'd find much of what you believe fits fine into the concepts i've put forth. for instance, you can believe that you chose your incarnations and whatever events occur during those lives. no biggy. for your concepts to fit into mine all you'd have to do is recognise is that though you chose your chosing and your choices is the Universe is creating spontanously with vibration, a vibration specific to individual expression of consciousness, which just happens to be you.

you and your choices are the Universe spontaneously creating with vibration. want to be egoless? try that concept on for size.

[Baldr44]

Ego-consciousness is necessary to your physical existence because it serves as a vehicle that affords you the opportunity to experience your physical life in the objective world. In contrast your soul or your Higher Mind does not require a physical experience to exist. The reason why your soul, the essence of you, does not necessarily need a physical experience is because thought occurs on the mental plane and anything desired is instantly realized. In other words, consciousness is not a bodily function nor is it in the form of an organ. Now, this statement lends itself to many a debate between metaphysics and the sciences because man is insistent in his attempts to find where in the physical body, i.e. the brain, consciousness exists. So far it has not been found to reside anywhere in or of the physical body, thus, it remains speculative in the eyes of many who seek to empirically prove that it does.

I am currently in the process of setting up my next incarnation as I have a certain desire in mind. My spiritual teacher said that if I give it intent then it will be. My subconscious will remember and put all into motion. I kind of see where you are coming from and I agree to a certain extent.

[Internal Queries]

I am currently in the process of setting up my next incarnation as I have a certain desire in mind. My spiritual teacher said that if I give it intent then it will be. My subconscious will remember and put all into motion. I kind of see where you are coming from and I agree to a certain extent.


i guess i'm a "just surprise me" type of person so i'll trust the Universe to manifest the vibration from which "i" spring in the way most advantageous to the exploration of Selfhood via the human personality vehicle. besides, all the variation of selves that eternally manifest from my particular vibration might be occurring simultaneously in different timelines so it'd be pointless for me to make plans to be people who already have lives going on. lol

as for "where" consciousness resides? **shrug** consciousness seems to be an amorphous phenom, any sentient organic data gathering sensing devise will do (maybe even inorganic too, AI).

[infamousjovian]

Hey,

I am totally new to this forum, so I just wanna say hi to everyone :)

I have always been skeptical about the idea of reincarnation for one important reason: I strongly believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life. As a result, it seems unusual to me that we would be reincarnated to a Earthly animal.

With the universe being so unimaginably vast, what are the odds that you'll reincarnate into a being on Earth? It seems like the odds are almost zero.

What do you guys think?

[SandybytheSea]

Oh my, one goes away for a few weeks and comes back to all manner of strange posts.

OK, where do we start. The soul possessing the body? No, that's not even worth a comment.

I've done close to 1,000 regressions and I've heard the same reasons for incarnating over and over again from all manner of people - believers and skeptics alike.

Who chose this incarnation for you? I did, of course, with the help of my guides.

Why did you choose to be blind, disabled, whatever else? Because it was necessary for my soul evolution. Note: I rarely if ever hear the word "karma" - although I often hear the perfect scenario for a karmic situation, such as a person who in a previous life lacked compassion for their disabled child and then chose - I repeat CHOSE - to return as a disabled child in order to raise their consciousness by understanding what it's like to be a disabled child.

How often I hear (never in regressions, of course, only in places like forums and religious gatherings) how we are helpless and will-less, have no control over our incarnations or even the circumstances of our lives, how we are all victims of God's anger, or are hapless nobodies finding ourselves incarnated by a whim of the universe. What a great way to become totally powerless! Ain't my fault I'm fat boring lazy and ugly, it's God's fault.

Hi infamousjovian! I, too, am very much a believer (no, believer isn't the correct word, accepter is probably better) of alien life - and I have actually regressed quite a few people who have had lifetimes on other planets. What are the odds that you'll reincarnate on earth? About the same as reincarnating as a pleadian, a zeta reticulum, or on any other planet or dimension throughout the endless universe. Some souls may be having their first experience as a human (and I think we all know at least a few of those, lol), while some just prefer earth. I've heard earth is actually one of the most difficult incarnations, and it's a brave soul who chooses it - so everyone take a bow!

:D

[Internal Queries]

Oh my, one goes away for a few weeks and comes back to all manner of strange posts.



lol yeah, the place just goes all to hell without your presence.

OK, where do we start. The soul possessing the body? No, that's not even worth a comment.


um ... since we are not our spacesuits what else does a soul do when inhabiting a body?

I've done close to 1,000 regressions and I've heard the same reasons for incarnating over and over again from all manner of people - believers and skeptics alike.


or you and your subjects tap into the human collective unconscious and pull up genetic memories from which we all draw knowledge.

Why did you choose to be blind, disabled, whatever else? Because it was necessary for my soul evolution. Note: I rarely if ever hear the word "karma" - although I often hear the perfect scenario for a karmic situation, such as a person who in a previous life lacked compassion for their disabled child and then chose - I repeat CHOSE - to return as a disabled child in order to raise their consciousness by understanding what it's like to be a disabled child.



well, that was generous and selfless of you but there have been countless disabled children born and thier experiences are available via the collective unconscious. the method of learning you're employing guarentees the need for an endless supply of misery since everyOne would have to experience every form of misery in order to understand each specific misery and feel compassion.

How often I hear (never in regressions, of course, only in places like forums and religious gatherings) how we are helpless and will-less, have no control over our incarnations or even the circumstances of our lives, how we are all victims of God's anger, or are hapless nobodies finding ourselves incarnated by a whim of the universe. What a great way to become totally powerless! Ain't my fault I'm fat boring lazy and ugly, it's God's fault.

lol do you really believe you have control over the Universe? that you can dictate all the details and successive events that would need to be enacted just so you can have the specific life experience you've decided you want? and no one said anything about a god's wrath or a god's fault or having no control or choice within the context of a life. only that the vibration from which consciousness manifests is an eternal constant and who or what manifests from It is not your choice, any more than it's the choice of a red winged black bird to manifest as a red winged black bird. do you create the core energy from which you manifests?

i'm not sure about "aliens" but any group of beings with whom we can relate and communicate can't be very "alien". a truly alien being would be one that is so far outside our ken that we can't relate to it or communicate with it.

[Baldr44]

Oh my, one goes away for a few weeks and comes back to all manner of strange posts.

OK, where do we start. The soul possessing the body? No, that's not even worth a comment.

I've done close to 1,000 regressions and I've heard the same reasons for incarnating over and over again from all manner of people - believers and skeptics alike.

Who chose this incarnation for you? I did, of course, with the help of my guides.

Why did you choose to be blind, disabled, whatever else? Because it was necessary for my soul evolution. Note: I rarely if ever hear the word "karma" - although I often hear the perfect scenario for a karmic situation, such as a person who in a previous life lacked compassion for their disabled child and then chose - I repeat CHOSE - to return as a disabled child in order to raise their consciousness by understanding what it's like to be a disabled child.

How often I hear (never in regressions, of course, only in places like forums and religious gatherings) how we are helpless and will-less, have no control over our incarnations or even the circumstances of our lives, how we are all victims of God's anger, or are hapless nobodies finding ourselves incarnated by a whim of the universe. What a great way to become totally powerless! Ain't my fault I'm fat boring lazy and ugly, it's God's fault.

Hi infamousjovian! I, too, am very much a believer (no, believer isn't the correct word, accepter is probably better) of alien life - and I have actually regressed quite a few people who have had lifetimes on other planets. What are the odds that you'll reincarnate on earth? About the same as reincarnating as a pleadian, a zeta reticulum, or on any other planet or dimension throughout the endless universe. Some souls may be having their first experience as a human (and I think we all know at least a few of those, lol), while some just prefer earth. I've heard earth is actually one of the most difficult incarnations, and it's a brave soul who chooses it - so everyone take a bow!

:D

Thanks for the confirmation. Another of the many who believe that we have a choice. Not by accident. You are correct about earth and being difficult. As my spirit teacher tells me and my guide agrees, humans are the lowest evolved species in the universe, hence the difficulties. My choice is to be a surgeon in my next incarnation and I'm now placing thought and intention into that. Its better going into the next life with intent and not just taking whatever. However if you just want whatever, ok done. I was a teacher in my first life and have been a teacher in this one. My next life will be a teaching surgeon (highly regarded I might add).

Part of everyones life experience here on earth is to help our fellow man in some manner. The rub is a lack of intent. You can pick out those who have intent over those who are in it for themselves. Thats ok too as it all counts toward an experience. The idea is to have experience's and hopefully learn from them. Thus moving toward becoming one with the Source.
Thanks again
In Love and Light

[Internal Queries]

belief by many doesn't nessecarily constitute truth. that's called "the populist fallacy". many people believed the Sun revolved around the Earth but their belief didn't make it so.

but hey! if disbelieving in "victimhood" make you feel more in control then go for it. if believing that victims choose to be victims and are therefore karmically responsible for their misery helps relieve the guilt you, as an empathic person, might feel due to your inability to prevent pain in the world then by all means believe victims choose to be victims and negate the concept of victimhood entirely. not sure where that belief system puts the triumphant victimizers except they have the honor of being the deliverers of painful karma on those who choose to be victims.

i , however, can not believe that a 3 year toddler asks, pre-birth, to have her innocence destroyed by a pedofile or that a group of folks collectively decided, pre-birth, that it would be advantageous to be blown into bloody chunks by some random bomb dropping on their house or that a soul being born in drought devastated Sudan wanted to live for an agonizing month slowly dying of starvation and dehydration. i prefer to believe in innocence even if that means i must admit i'm not in control of the Universe..

[Toolite]

The word Reincarnation means to make new again.

It is said to be when the Soul leaves the body and is freed at the time of death of the physical body to come forth again to a new body. When one dies from the physical body I feel that the Soul is what goes to the Light to be re born or to come to a new body for more in the body learning’s and experiences. That said I do wonder on having a choice where we come to or that we might or might not want to come back.


Do we have a choice on where we come back to ?


Do we have a choice to maybe NOT come back ?




Lynn


Lynn




In my personal opinion I don't really think so.. I think the only reason why we reincarnate because we missed lessons.. We are really stubborn people... it's almost like failing a grade (i.e. 5th grade).. I think once we truly have learned and reached the highest level then we are able to be Angels or Spirit Guides in Heaven with an opportunity to teach on Earth.. Depending on what we are assigned to do but, these are just my thoughts on it..

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

[Baldr44]

belief by many doesn't nessecarily constitute truth. that's called "the populist fallacy". many people believed the Sun revolved around the Earth but their belief didn't make it so.

but hey! if disbelieving in "victimhood" make you feel more in control then go for it. if believing that victims choose to be victims and are therefore karmically responsible for their misery helps relieve the guilt you, as an empathic person, might feel due to your inability to prevent pain in the world then by all means believe victims choose to be victims and negate the concept of victimhood entirely. not sure where that belief system puts the triumphant victimizers except they have the honor of being the deliverers of painful karma on those who choose to be victims.

i , however, can not believe that a 3 year toddler asks, pre-birth, to have her innocence destroyed by a pedofile or that a group of folks collectively decided, pre-birth, that it would be advantageous to be blown into bloody chunks by some random bomb dropping on their house or that a soul being born in drought devastated Sudan wanted to live for an agonizing month slowly dying of starvation and dehydration. i prefer to believe in innocence even if that means i must admit i'm not in control of the Universe..

Oh boy, sorry about that. I have no desire to put you or your belief down. However you are doing a fine job on mine. Too much the zellot for me. Everyone believes in something, I believe I'll bow out of this, too much.

[Internal Queries]

Oh boy, sorry about that. I have no desire to put you or your belief down. However you are doing a fine job on mine. Too much the zellot for me. Everyone believes in something, I believe I'll bow out of this, too much.


sorry about what? you didn't put my beliefs down. and i didn't put your beliefs down either. disagreeing is not a "put down". and offering my perspective and why i have the perspective i do indicates i'm a zealot?
though you have the support of the much touted "many people" who share your beliefs you run into one person on a thread that doesn't "buy" into your system and it's just "too much" so you must bow out of the thread? gee, sorry but how could i have known you are so delicate that the least little challenge to your spiritual dogma or a minor suggestion that the Universe might operate in ways other than how you want It to would cause you such distress.

[Baldr44]

Nope, Just don't see the point in this discussion. Besides, I've run into far more than your "one person on a thread" issue. Just not inclined to argue points that have no merrit in my estimation. Much like christians, I gave up on that particular dogma some time ago. It's really a waste of time as they have chosen, (yes, they had a choice before this life experience) as they are intrenched in their belief, there is no point in a continuation of such. It is thier choice and I simply won't go too far out of my way to encourage them to think outside the box. It's really a waste of energy.

[dhaga]

I believe we keep coming back, to learn and grow in spirit, until we are ready to ascend to the next level.

I believe we must come back until we are ready to ascend, but I am not certain about our choices of when, where, and what form. Once we are human, can we live life as something else for a lifetime, then come back to human? Does that promote any growth or knowledge of perspective?

[Baldr44]

I believe we keep coming back, to learn and grow in spirit, until we are ready to ascend to the next level.

I believe we must come back until we are ready to ascend, but I am not certain about our choices of when, where, and what form. Once we are human, can we live life as something else for a lifetime, then come back to human? Does that promote any growth or knowledge of perspective?

This seems to be a bone of contention with at least one other in this particular thread. Yes, I believe you're right for the most part. We are actually multidimensional beings and can exist on many planes at the same time. For further information, one of Seth's books covers that quite nicely. If you're not familiar with Seth, he is a nonphysical entity who had many life experiences and has attained a higher level of consciousness, much like you stated. He dictated(channeled) many lessons through a person named Jane Roberts. The particular book that describes multidimensional existences is "Seth Speaks". The most recent channeling of Seth here at my place (a couple of weeks ago), he said that he had had 48 life experiences ("give or take").

Mostly, if we chose to come back into the human experience, we do have an opportunity to review any previous experiences that we had. After considering what we did or did not acomplish, we can then decide what it is we hope to do in the next experience. As described previously, we can come back into whatever circumstance we decide. Some have chosen to just experience birth and then return. Some to experience a multitude of various issues. Being wealthy, sick or just to experience life. Seth wanted to experience being poor and came back to many children, all with different fathers and begging in the street. Since his other experiences had included wealth and good health, he decided he wanted to experience poverty.



Someone else stated that earth is the least desireable because of the lack of evolution here. As I have learned from my master teacher, we are by far the least evolved beings in the universe. So it is quite the challenge.

Anyway, as I understand it from my spiritual teacher, we are in many different realities all at the same time. Why have just one existence when there are so many to chose from?

[Perspective]

makes me wonder, if you do choose, why do people choose to be ugly?, or born in poor or wortorn countries? or why would you choose to be born with terminal illness? or disability?


I've always had a thought that these could maybe be punishments for bad things you did in a previous life? who knows. this world could actually be the hell so many christian god followers are afraid of. I was taught that we did choose & had an idea of what our life would be like...
& that "there must be opposition in all things."
We all have challenges... some harder than others...
The way I see it is those who have harder challenges either
1. Have a strong capacity to deal with it (esp. those who's struggles are inflicted by others)
or
2. Struggle with reality (esp. those who create struggles for themselves)

I don't believe in divine punishment...
More like... you run against a brick wall & you get hurt! Consequences to actions.
Maybe what determines who we become (as far as reincarnation)...
is our energy in previous lives... How we incorporated or harmonized struggles with our eternal spiritual selves...

[Internal Queries]

Nope, Just don't see the point in this discussion. Besides, I've run into far more than your "one person on a thread" issue. Just not inclined to argue points that have no merrit in my estimation. Much like christians, I gave up on that particular dogma some time ago. It's really a waste of time as they have chosen, (yes, they had a choice before this life experience) as they are intrenched in their belief, there is no point in a continuation of such. It is thier choice and I simply won't go too far out of my way to encourage them to think outside the box. It's really a waste of energy.


i agree that it's pointless to offer differing perspectives to someone who is entrenched in their dogma. some folks just can't think outside the box in which they have so much invested. years of study and research, 5000 word theses, PHDs riding on 10,000 word dissertations and metaphysical counceling degrees framed and hanging on the wall can close anyones' mind after awhile.

ah well ... since energy can neither be created or destroyed it can't really be wasted either.

:wink:

[Baldr44]

i agree that it's pointless to offer differing perspectives to someone who is entrenched in their dogma. some folks just can't think outside the box in which they have so much invested. years of study and research, 5000 word theses, PHDs riding on 10,000 word dissertations and metaphysical counceling degrees framed and hanging on the wall can close anyones' mind after awhile.

ah well ... since energy can neither be created or destroyed it can't really be wasted either.

:wink:

Well again you go off the deep end, did I not say in a previous post that I would look into it? You certainly have enough right here in this very same thread to say that there are others who believe as I do. Yet I don't see much in the way of your belief. My metaphysical education has included many aspects of metaphysical inquiry including Western Religions, Yoga, Wicca, Hypnosis, Qabalah, Chakras & Auras, Shamanism, Pranayama, Crystals and Gemstones, Astrology, Wizzards-Adepts-Mystery Schools, Divination, Taoist Healing Arts, Reincarnation, Meditation Skils, Shadow Work, Enneagram, Psychic Skills, Witchcraft, Herbs and Natural Medicine, Angels, Gods-Goddesses & Mythology, Archetypes, Mantras & Mudras, Spiritual Symbols & Colors, Great Spiritual Masters and Teachers, Dreams and Dreaming, Channeling, Native American Studies (I'm part Cherokee) and Phenomena to name a few, over 80 courses in all. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm entrenched in Dogma when I have spent the last four years in study of almost every aspect of metaphysical beliefs. Seems to me that you have the closed mind. No offense intended just an observation.
In Love and Light
Jake

[Internal Queries]

Well again you go off the deep end, did I not say in a previous post that I would look into it? You certainly have enough right here in this very same thread to say that there are others who believe as I do. Yet I don't see much in the way of your belief. My metaphysical education has included many aspects of metaphysical inquiry including Western Religions, Yoga, Wicca, Hypnosis, Qabalah, Chakras & Auras, Shamanism, Pranayama, Crystals and Gemstones, Astrology, Wizzards-Adepts-Mystery Schools, Divination, Taoist Healing Arts, Reincarnation, Meditation Skils, Shadow Work, Enneagram, Psychic Skills, Witchcraft, Herbs and Natural Medicine, Angels, Gods-Goddesses & Mythology, Archetypes, Mantras & Mudras, Spiritual Symbols & Colors, Great Spiritual Masters and Teachers, Dreams and Dreaming, Channeling, Native American Studies (I'm part Cherokee) and Phenomena to name a few, over 80 courses in all. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm entrenched in Dogma when I have spent the last four years in study of almost every aspect of metaphysical beliefs. Seems to me that you have the closed mind. No offense intended just an observation.
In Love and Light
Jake


all that is very nice and all but i quit being impressed with populist fallacies long ago. the fact that many others believe as you do doesn't mean that what you and those many others believe is "The Truth". though i didn't go so far as to get credentials (pffft! paperwork does not wisdom make) i too spend many years studying cultural myths and religious concepts, metaphysics and psy phenom, crystals, Law of Attraction, assorted mediation techniques, mediums, channelling and etc. i studied under and studied gurus too. **shrug** and then i tossed it ALL out because none of if was coming directly or originally from me, from my personal experiences, from my spirit. i was working from preconceived notions, concepts created by other people from their perspectives. i realized that these "masters" and gurus and teachers were no more equipped to know "The Truth" than i was so i wiped the slate clean and started from scratch. and that's why you "don't see much in the way of my belief". my concepts come directly and in originality from my own inner explorations ... not from the perspectives of someone else.

i no longer believe one can dictate to the Universe how It manifests vibrations of consciousness and Selfhood or anything else but good luck with your endeavors to do so.

[SandybytheSea]

Internal, it's true - a piece of paper does not create wisdom, but then neither does self-study necessarily. You say that your concepts come "directly and in originality from my own inner explorations", but what you don't seem to get is that EVERYONE'S concepts and beliefs come that way if they THINK. It matters not through which channel they come, only that they come. Widsom can be achieved by reading a simple line in a book, or overhearing a casual conversation at the supermarket checkout, which will send the thinking person off to consider, question, analyse, and delve into their own "inner explorations", just as a good teacher may have done for Baldr, or listening closely to clients for many years has done for me.
Life is not a competition Internal - we're not competing to discover who is wiser than who. No-one wins any medals for being more spiritual than anyone else. In fact, the wisest person recognises that everyone has their own path to the same destination, and must walk that path only. Those who continually tell others they are on the wrong path are actually straying off their own to do so.
Let's all just agree to differ and accept that we'll all get to the same place eventually, and also recognise that everything - even your own reality - is the result of each person's perception.
when you look at the leaves of a tree, do you KNOW for sure that the green you see is the same green I see? Maybe what I see, you would call purple and Baldr would recognise as red. We might just all be calling it green because that's what everyone else calls that particular color we see! That doesn't make any of us wrong ... just different. And viva la difference.

[Baldr44]

all that is very nice and all but i quit being impressed with populist fallacies long ago. the fact that many others believe as you do doesn't mean that what you and those many others believe is "The Truth". though i didn't go so far as to get credentials (pffft! paperwork does not wisdom make) i too spend many years studying cultural myths and religious concepts, metaphysics and psy phenom, crystals, Law of Attraction, assorted mediation techniques, mediums, channelling and etc. i studied under and studied gurus too. **shrug** and then i tossed it ALL out because none of if was coming directly or originally from me, from my personal experiences, from my spirit. i was working from preconceived notions, concepts created by other people from their perspectives. i realized that these "masters" and gurus and teachers were no more equipped to know "The Truth" than i was so i wiped the slate clean and started from scratch. and that's why you "don't see much in the way of my belief". my concepts come directly and in originality from my own inner explorations ... not from the perspectives of someone else.

i no longer believe one can dictate to the Universe how It manifests vibrations of consciousness and Selfhood or anything else but good luck with your endeavors to do so.

I believe you missed my point. I have spent time looking into other areas to specifically avoid dogma. Dogma as defined is "Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioner or believers." Yet I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to his/her own beliefs. The dogma of christianity leaves no one alone if possible. Much like another on this forum who crams scripture into others at every opportunity. I have a belief but not dogmatic in it.

By the definition of dogma, you have disputed my belief and I have not told you that you are wrong, you might even be right but not yet in my understanding.

What I hear you saying is that education is a waste of time. Learning others beliefs are not in your best interest. It is to me because to understand a persons belief structure is to understand the person and where they are coming from. To help a person is to know the person first and their belief is critical to that understanding. However it doesn't appear that you are coming from a helper standpoint. A light worker helps people out of darkness, without knowing the dark, how can you help with the light?

[StephenK]

Internal, it's true - a piece of paper does not create wisdom, but then neither does self-study necessarily. You say that your concepts come "directly and in originality from my own inner explorations", but what you don't seem to get is that EVERYONE'S concepts and beliefs come that way if they THINK.
I've been watching this conversation since it started and wasn't going to get involved but what the heck.... I can relate to what you're saying Sandy but
I'm more drawn to Internals trajectory.

"Thinking" can be as much a problem as it can be a benefit. What we think about something doesn't make it so. Thought itself is an observation of
shadows cast by the event or by the concepts we're entertaining, and yet without the direct unfiltered-intuitive-connection to what's being
observed/discussed this process of thinking can be as much about separation as it can be awareness.

Thought, needs to be approached with disciplined objectivity... there's a distinct need for sober assessments, with little to no sacred cows . If someones
thoughts have taken them to the point where they're highly religious then the stuff that they see around them will be defined in that manor.

There is only one tool that we have to work with that's up for the task of leading us out of the madness of random associations. And that's what I'm
watching Internal attempting to describe. We need to be clear... we're needing to clear-out our thoughts-about-things and replace it with direct
interaction.

We'll still be thinking about what we're doing and thinking about what we're encountering daily, but doing so with the knowing that thoughts are
the byproduct of an event, they can as easily get in the way as be helpful.

I'm watching Internal expressing this realization using the words that seem to apply. His observation suggest that our study-of-self needs to go
beyond words in order to get to the core harmonics that hums just below the surface of physical consciousness... we can best approach this from
the inside... while concepts/thoughts-themselves are externally experienced.

It appears you have a great connection with your own inner self Sandy! So I'm certainly not challenging that! :^) But sometimes we give credit to
how we're thinking-about-things as being the "solid" behind our perceptions.. I like to give credit where credit is due... I suspect you're
closer to Internal's take on this than you realize... :^)

[Internal Queries]

look ... i apologise if i'm seeming disrespectful of the quests of others, especially Balder44, with whom i've been butting heads. i admit that i get a tad frustrated when i try to interject a different perspective on an ancient concept only to be told my perspective lacks merit because it's not a perspective held by many others.

StephenK clarified my position well. perhaps better than i could since i've been emotionally (egotisticly) invested in the ongoing argument. inner explorations and discoveries made there are not easily discribed in text but surfice to say that what i discovered was so vast and overwhelmingly powerful as to be inconceivable by any human and i was thus deeply humbled (and i was only "seeing" the human matrix. there is more, infinitely more.). i realized then that it was hubris for me to believe i could control such a phenom to further my own desires.

[LightBearer]

The subject of soul choice, is not to be taken literally, it is not like on the material where in order to make a choice, you may stand at a window and decide what you might like or what size fits.

Choice is a vibrational thing, you are drawn to a path depending on your vibration, all other paths, (or doorways) will cause a degree of anxiety for your soul and thus you will avoid them for fear of the worst happening.

depending on the path (or doorway) which you are drawn to, will dictate the why's and wherefore's of your next life, or indeed if their is a next life. hence the only souls who truly choose are those who are liberated completely and can see all path's or doorways without anxiety and then choose the one which we feel is most important to our development. (everyone else drifts)

that is why spiritual development is all about remaining centred focused, and alligned with the higher good of all. we intend at our highest levels to increase our vibration through development, and karma rectification in order that we stop drifting and can truly choose.

no-one, can come down here spin around like a tasmanian devil leaving karmic impressions and then decide its not for them (ultimately meaning that other souls must clear up their mess behind them) and not come back. It does not work that way im afraid.

the subject of choice is a very dangerous one (in the way it is portrayed by many.... sugesting that whatever we are experiencing is what we asked for), no one chooses to come back and starve in the desert, no one chooses to be raped or interfered with, these are the choices of selfish and extremely low vibration individuals who are stuck in the world of matter and dont care much about who suffers as a result of their actions. The victims must then work through these events setting which otherwise should not happen (thus not only physically hurting them but spiritually also).

It is disgusting to assume that these things are chosen, they are not and suggesting such does more harm than good to those who have suffered at the hands of others.

[Internal Queries]

well, one has to be conscious to make "soul choices" but as a pre-physically manifested pure vibration there is no "you" or "me" or "i" to make choices. the Universe does It's thing. we enjoy the illusion of choice while we reside in bodies and express ourselves as personalities but IMO, in my experience, we all end up relinquishing our illusion of control and surrender to "God".

[Internal Queries]

It is disgusting to assume that these things are chosen, they are not and suggesting such does more harm than good to those who have suffered at the hands of others.

i couldn't agree more with this. thank you.

[Baldr44]

i couldn't agree more with this. thank you.

I guess this means that I don't get to come back as a surgeon as I have been told. Too bad, I could've been very helpful as such. What with my previous experience as a teacher and again in this experience. I also spent 20 years in the medical field. Maybe I'll catch a break and slide in as the surgeon I've been giving intent to. I'm sure something/someone will find me a good place in my next journey. Luck of the draw perhaps.

I'm glad that you have someone along with you in belief, its good to have conformation.

[Baldr44]

Here is an interesting channeled message from Erik who committed suicide and is now working to help others better understand the nonphysical reality.

His mother asks him through medium:
Me: —or is there one part of your multidimensional self that has an Erikness quality and another part that has another personality, like your evil twin?


Erik (chuckling): No, it all stems from the same thing; it’s all the same DNA, it’s all the same package, but the life that each part of the multidimensional self lives and chooses to live can shape them to have different angers, or loves, or hobbies. The core of it is exactly the same.
From channelingerik.com

[Internal Queries]

I guess this means that I don't get to come back as a surgeon as I have been told. Too bad, I could've been very helpful as such. What with my previous experience as a teacher and again in this experience. I also spent 20 years in the medical field. Maybe I'll catch a break and slide in as the surgeon I've been giving intent to. I'm sure something/someone will find me a good place in my next journey. Luck of the draw perhaps.

I'm glad that you have someone along with you in belief, its good to have conformation.


Balder44? just believe whatever you want. is your faith in your belief system so fragile that my little interjection of perception can cause it to be broken? if you believe you can manipulate the Universe into manifesting you as a surgeon then continue with your efforts. shall it be assumed that you intend to remanifest on Earth during a timeline that requires surgeons? i mean, there might alternate Earths where surgery as we understand it is no longer practiced. or you might end up on a planet where your human skills don't even apply. the possibilities are literally endless.

[7luminaries]

Oh my, one goes away for a few weeks and comes back to all manner of strange posts.

OK, where do we start. The soul possessing the body? No, that's not even worth a comment.

I've done close to 1,000 regressions and I've heard the same reasons for incarnating over and over again from all manner of people - believers and skeptics alike.

Who chose this incarnation for you? I did, of course, with the help of my guides.

Why did you choose to be blind, disabled, whatever else? Because it was necessary for my soul evolution. Note: I rarely if ever hear the word "karma" - although I often hear the perfect scenario for a karmic situation, such as a person who in a previous life lacked compassion for their disabled child and then chose - I repeat CHOSE - to return as a disabled child in order to raise their consciousness by understanding what it's like to be a disabled child.

How often I hear (never in regressions, of course, only in places like forums and religious gatherings) how we are helpless and will-less, have no control over our incarnations or even the circumstances of our lives, how we are all victims of God's anger, or are hapless nobodies finding ourselves incarnated by a whim of the universe. What a great way to become totally powerless! Ain't my fault I'm fat boring lazy and ugly, it's God's fault.

Hi infamousjovian! I, too, am very much a believer (no, believer isn't the correct word, accepter is probably better) of alien life - and I have actually regressed quite a few people who have had lifetimes on other planets. What are the odds that you'll reincarnate on earth? About the same as reincarnating as a pleadian, a zeta reticulum, or on any other planet or dimension throughout the endless universe. Some souls may be having their first experience as a human (and I think we all know at least a few of those, lol), while some just prefer earth. I've heard earth is actually one of the most difficult incarnations, and it's a brave soul who chooses it - so everyone take a bow!

:D

nice post...I have to agree about this place being a difficult incarnation...and we do need to recognise that...we are so much more than we often give ourselves and one another credit for...

cheers!
7L

[Baldr44]

Balder44? just believe whatever you want. is your faith in your belief system so fragile that my little interjection of perception can cause it to be broken? if you believe you can manipulate the Universe into manifesting you as a surgeon then continue with your efforts. shall it be assumed that you intend to remanifest on Earth during a timeline that requires surgeons? i mean, there might alternate Earths where surgery as we understand it is no longer practiced. or you might end up on a planet where your human skills don't even apply. the possibilities are literally endless.

There will be a need here on this physical earth plain. No, I am not in the least bit intimated by your belief, I was being sarcastic.I dont have to manipulate anything. Why would I end up somewhere other than where I desire? I agree the possibilities are endless. However probabilities also come into play. Probable futures are set in motion by ones intent. Did you not read my post from a nonphysical being who is being channeled? Oops, you probably don't get channeling either, witchcraft right?

Again, Erik's mom is working with a medium his response to his mother's questions;His mom's question,
"Well, so does each self have a different personality or , uh, I mean, let’s take the whole multidimensional self; does it have a uniqueness about it as a whole, like does your multidimensional self have an Erikness—
Erik: Yes, and—
Mom: —or is there one part of your multidimensional self that has an Erikness quality and another part that has another personality, like your evil twin?
Jamie (medium) laughs.
Erik (chuckling): No, it all stems from the same thing; it’s all the same DNA, it’s all the same package, but the life that each part of the multidimensional self lives and chooses to live can shape them to have different angers, or loves, or hobbies. The core of it is exactly the same.
Mom: I see. So the core is Erik with the Erikness essence or quality
Erik: Yeah, I’m all Erik.
Mom: Okay. Anything else different about being discarnate?
(Long pause)
Jamie(medium) (chuckling): He pauses; he kind of looks up and goes, “It’s just so much more free!”
http://www.channelingerik.com/

I'm certain that you will find a problem with channeling to justify your reasoning. My wife channels her spirit guide and I channel mine as well and the information I share comes directly from them. Can't wait to hear your response to this one.
Love and Light
Jake

[Internal Queries]

hi again Balder44, whew! sure glad you were just being sarcastic. next time you're being sarcastic you might want to include a /snark/ indicator at the end of your sarcastic text. sometimes/oftimes it's hard to tell in text when someone is sneering at you.

i'm not sure what you expect me to find in that Erik thing. i didn't know Erik so any purported message from him from the "beyond" has no relevance to me.

[Baldr44]

hi again Balder44, whew! sure glad you were just being sarcastic. next time you're being sarcastic you might want to include a /snark/ indicator at the end of your sarcastic text. sometimes/oftimes it's hard to tell in text when someone is sneering at you.

i'm not sure what you expect me to find in that Erik thing. i didn't know Erik so any purported message from him from the "beyond" has no relevance to me.
I inserted a hyper link to the site. Erik is a nonphysical youngster who has had other incarnations but is in the process of learning. He is being guided by teachers and guides to help him better understand his current position. He is not in the "beyond" (don't know where that would be) he is in a nonphysical reality where one passes when they shed the cloak of the human body. There are many realities in the mental planes, Erik is in the one that is vibrationally matched to him. If you should decide to take a look at hs life after this life, you might start at the begining. There have been a great number of chanelled messages. Upon reading them one can see the growth that is taking place.

Erik was very playful in the begining. He has been in our presence a few times and it has been a delight to have him visit. He has a couple of guys here that he has incarnated with in the past. One was a twin brother and the other his father in a previous life experience. They chose from their spiritual circle of family and friends to come back again. Due to Erik's illness he took his life before he was finished so now he's being of service from the other side of the veil.
My apology for the sneer, without my guide watching me I can get totally out in left field. She's with me now and wanted to be sure to let you know that is something I shouldn't be doing.
Love and Light
Jake

[Internal Queries]

Balder44, i'm sure all this is very real for you but messages from the discorporated don't prove anything to me, especially if i've never met them in their physicality since i would have no context for character referrence. and even if my departed Grandma appeared to me and told me she's presently happy being an exotic dancer in Las Vegas her message wouldn't override the profound effect of the revelation i experienced which still reverberates as a truth ... in me ... for me.

so i was pondering our differences and i wonder if it has something to do with the perceived functions of the Id. a "medium" once told me i was a "surrendered soul". she said "surrendered souls" are those who are "servants of God" and they manifest how and where they are needed (and so perhaps not necessarily how and where they desire). i rejected this idea at the time because at the time i believed as you do. but then i "saw" the "map", that inconceivably vast, complex and powerful multidimensional web of interconnected energy lines and knew i could have no power of my own in such a system, that any power or control i might achieve is merely a infinitesimal manifestion of a power far far beyond my comprehenision. IOW, my ego vanishes in the brilliance and if there is an "i" at all in that moment it must bow to that brilliance. it seems surrender is all i can do but in that surrender i achieve my only personal power. in yielding to the Universe i can manifest as unconditional love.

you are different than me. you have plans and you can decide where and how you'll pop up in that inconceivably vast, complex and powerful multidimensional weave of interconnected energy lines. you're ego is big enough to tell "God" what you want and demand you get your way. good for you! hope it works.

[Neville]

The Souls journey will incorporate experiencing life times that to us might seem unfavourable, this will affect us as people and inturn promote questions like this.

Speaking in terms of the Soul and it's Journey this question becomes irrelevant because our consciousness as a person living now must by dint of the obvious know that the suffering of our body and mind will at length cease. Once that suffering has ceased. Its no longer a bad life and therefore the prospect of coming back to another life exactly like this one, for the Soul is unlikely. because its been there and done that.

Next time round it will be different. It might be worse, but it might also be a lot better. :smile:

[Baldr44]

The Souls journey will incorporate experiencing life times that to us might seem unfavourable, this will affect us as people and inturn promote questions like this.

Speaking in terms of the Soul and it's Journey this question becomes irrelevant because our consciousness as a person living now must by dint of the obvious know that the suffering of our body and mind will at length cease. Once that suffering has ceased. Its no longer a bad life and therefore the prospect of coming back to another life exactly like this one, for the Soul is unlikely. because its been there and done that.

Next time round it will be different. It might be worse, but it might also be a lot better. :smile:

Absolutely, Couldn't agree more. It is because of the "been there, done that" that we can have another experience. After finishing each life experience, we have an opportunity to review it. As we experience a multitude of experiences (pardon the redundancy) we become more and more aware of our true conscious connection not only with the collective consciousness but to the Source of Consciousness as well. There are of course the other multidimensional aspects of our consciousness as well but that is a another discussion. However still part of the whole consciousness.

In Love and Light
Jake

[Baldr44]

Balder44, i'm sure all this is very real for you but messages from the discorporated don't prove anything to me, especially if i've never met them in their physicality since i would have no context for character referrence. and even if my departed Grandma appeared to me and told me she's presently happy being an exotic dancer in Las Vegas her message wouldn't override the profound effect of the revelation i experienced which still reverberates as a truth ... in me ... for me.

so i was pondering our differences and i wonder if it has something to do with the perceived functions of the Id. a "medium" once told me i was a "surrendered soul". she said "surrendered souls" are those who are "servants of God" and they manifest how and where they are needed (and so perhaps not necessarily how and where they desire). i rejected this idea at the time because at the time i believed as you do. but then i "saw" the "map", that inconceivably vast, complex and powerful multidimensional web of interconnected energy lines and knew i could have no power of my own in such a system, that any power or control i might achieve is merely a infinitesimal manifestion of a power far far beyond my comprehenision. IOW, my ego vanishes in the brilliance and if there is an "i" at all in that moment it must bow to that brilliance. it seems surrender is all i can do but in that surrender i achieve my only personal power. in yielding to the Universe i can manifest as unconditional love.

you are different than me. you have plans and you can decide where and how you'll pop up in that inconceivably vast, complex and powerful multidimensional weave of interconnected energy lines. you're ego is big enough to tell "God" what you want and demand you get your way. good for you! hope it works.

After much pondering and thought, I believe that you believe youself to be a victum. I mean how in heavens name would you select a life experience like the one you're having? So, someone must be at fault here and it wasn't myself so, there must be a systemic way of some entity, perhaps god who makes these decisions for us. So, I will bow to that power that makes all the right decisions for us and consequently it is impossible for anyone to have a choice.
My ego has nothing to do with it, it is a choice that I get to make for myself, there is no god to tell anything to. There was a time when I might have agreed with you on the ego thing, but no longer.
You have no consciousness as god provides everything you need. He/she/it makes the decisions through its brilliance. You my friend have far more power than you give youself credit for. There is no god making assignments, however it makes a really great story. I'm sorry but it sound like a cop out to me. However it is what you believe, so be it. I'm not here to change your thinking, just to make points. I really can't imagine being a slave to a dictator god. Just my two cents.
In Love and Light
Jake

[Internal Queries]

After much pondering and thought, I believe that you believe youself to be a victum. I mean how in heavens name would you select a life experience like the one you're having? So, someone must be at fault here and it wasn't myself so, there must be a systemic way of some entity, perhaps god who makes these decisions for us. So, I will bow to that power that makes all the right decisions for us and consequently it is impossible for anyone to have a choice.
My ego has nothing to do with it, it is a choice that I get to make for myself, there is no god to tell anything to. There was a time when I might have agreed with you on the ego thing, but no longer.
You have no consciousness as god provides everything you need. He/she/it makes the decisions through its brilliance. You my friend have far more power than you give youself credit for. There is no god making assignments, however it makes a really great story. I'm sorry but it sound like a cop out to me. However it is what you believe, so be it. I'm not here to change your thinking, just to make points. I really can't imagine being a slave to a dictator god. Just my two cents.
In Love and Light
Jake


oh fer crise sake, Balder44, have i express any discontentment with my spiritual position? if not ... how can you ASSume i consider myself a victim? even if i grumble that perhaps i'd prefer not to be uncomfortable here or there my grumbling would only indicate that i have an ego that is not entirely happy with being surrendered (ego is like that). i'm merely truthful with myself that the Universe is far far more powerful and complex than i can comprehend and control.

i have no consciousness? well okay. if that's how you perceive me that's how i am to you. fortunately for me, aside from this miniscule interaction on this message board, you aren't creating me.

you and i once again differ. i do not see "God" as dictator ... more like an unlimited natural force spontaneously manifesting every possible reality (in which you can perhaps manifest yourself as a surgeon). and you seem to be being deliberately obtuse when you say "that God provides everything you need" and "makes all decisions" and being "a slave" when surely you know (unless i've over estimated your intelligence and intuitive abilities) that's not my meaning. (perhaps you should turn to your guide and ask her about being disingenuous). in any case, since you believe yourself to be in control of the natural forces that constitute the Universe go stand in the path of a tornado and command it to stop and see what happens.

[Baldr44]

Reality is what we take to be true.

What we take to be true is what we believe.

What we believe is based upon our perceptions.

What we perceive depends upon what we look for.

What we look for depends upon what we think.

What we think depends upon what we perceive.

What we perceive determines what we believe.

What we believe determines what we take to be true.

What we take to be true is our reality.

Gary Zukav

[Internal Queries]

Reality is what we take to be true.

What we take to be true is what we believe.

What we believe is based upon our perceptions.

What we perceive depends upon what we look for.

What we look for depends upon what we think.

What we think depends upon what we perceive.

What we perceive determines what we believe.

What we believe determines what we take to be true.

What we take to be true is our reality.

Gary Zukav


was Mr. Zukav ever able to command the halt of a tornado by believing it to be other than destructive? can the tide be caused to change it's timing by believing it will be timed differently than the moon phases dictate? can the erruption of a volcano be stalled by tossing a virgin into the caldera?


oh and i'm curious, Balder44. have you planned out your final departure? do you know the time and circumstance of your complete exit from your present body?

[Baldr44]

was Mr. Zukave ever able to command the halt of a tornado by believing it to be other than destructive? can the tide be caused to change it's timing by believing it will be timed differently than the moon phases dictate? can the erruption of a volcano be stalled by tossing a virgin into the caldera?


oh and i'm curious, Balder44. have you planned out your final departure? do you know the time and circumstance of complete exit from your present body?

You sir are hung up on changing nature. If you read it carefully you will see that it is of a personal nature. It is about changing one's own perceptions. We fall into traps of personal deceptive perceptions.

One of the most important reasons for understanding the nature of personal reality is to learn how to experience balance and harmony in our day to day lives which can only be achieved by looking into what lies below the surface which includes a clear and precise understanding of what limiting thoughts, disabling beliefs and deceptive perceptions we unknowingly program in our subconscious minds. This kind of investigation requires the interjection of spirituality because we are not a species that is in some way separate from our spirituality.

I can't control the elements, However I can control my own reality by eliminating disabling beliefs and deceptive perceptions.

[Internal Queries]

You sir are hung up on changing nature. If you read it carefully you will see that it is of a personal nature. It is about changing one's own perceptions. We fall into traps of personal deceptive perceptions.

One of the most important reasons for understanding the nature of personal reality is to learn how to experience balance and harmony in our day to day lives which can only be achieved by looking into what lies below the surface which includes a clear and precise understanding of what limiting thoughts, disabling beliefs and deceptive perceptions we unknowingly program in our subconscious minds. This kind of investigation requires the interjection of spirituality because we are not a species that is in some way separate from our spirituality.

I can't control the elements, However I can control my own reality by eliminating disabling beliefs and deceptive perceptions.


i'm well aware of the "create your own reality" meme and i use it where applicable and the application IS limited BECAUSE natural overwhelming forces are also at play in our realities. that is a simple and undeniable truth and no amount of believing otherwise will change the the fact that the Universe is not governed by our beliefs.

you didn't answer my query concerning your exit plans.

[Baldr44]

i'm well aware of the "create your own reality" meme and i use it where applicable and the application IS limited BECAUSE natural overwhelming forces are also at play in our realities. that is a simple and undeniable truth and no amount of believing otherwise will change the the fact that the Universe is not governed by our beliefs.

you didn't answer my query concerning your exit plans.

The wheel of karma for every individual begins turning at birth in which every thought and action is taken into consideration in the form of unseen mathematical equations that produce like results each and every time In fact the karmic debt can extend into the past depending on the breadth of the debt incurred and the number of incarnations it takes to get it right. Therefore, the efforts you put into your physical life experiences will either enhance or hinder your physical experience.

This is the point where many people fall into a very deceiving trap. They falsely believe that it is okay to screw up their physical incarnation because they’ve been told they can chalk it all up to experience and go on their merry way giving no further thought to the karma that awaits resolve on the physical plane. Additionally they intentionally or unintentionally banish the idea that the role they play in their physical experiences does not affect the whole of the race because they perceive themselves to be individuals separated from the whole. This is a very false delusional mentality!
No one individual is so separated from the whole that the effect of one experience does not ultimately affect the experience of the whole. Much like the ever-expanding universe that stretches out into infinity (not up), so do the affects of one life lived expand out on an invisible wave which eventually reaches the shoreline of every individual in some aspect. Everything that exists is, in fact, entangled. Hence, the evolutionary process is eventually slowed when masses of like-kind thinking individuals process along the same vibratory wave which ultimately affects everyone from the top down.

As far as my departure from this physical existence, I'll decide that when I'm finished with this particular experience. Just another choice. In my awareness too many hang on to loved one's who are ready to pass. They physically keep the person from leaving. Oh, I love them so much that I don't want them to go, in reality the person passing will be in a far better place than here. When its time, I'll know as my guide will help in the process.

[Roselove]

no the higher self aka slave driver choses for us.

[thewordofgod]

The word Reincarnation means to make new again.

It is said to be when the Soul leaves the body and is freed at the time of death of the physical body to come forth again to a new body. When one dies from the physical body I feel that the Soul is what goes to the Light to be re born or to come to a new body for more in the body learning’s and experiences. That said I do wonder on having a choice where we come to or that we might or might not want to come back.


Do we have a choice on where we come back to ?


Do we have a choice to maybe NOT come back ?




Lynn


Lynn



We're all going to reincarnate to one other body after our death because the next body will never die. This age was limited so God could do his work in his select people. This age is about to end and everything on earth will be destroyed. Our created souls will remain in God until our next bodies are available in the new earth. This earth is not suitable for all God's people to live forever so it has to go through a change. The earth's crust will be melted to make a level earth without mountains or oceans. If you're interested, I can tell you all about the future paradise we will live in.

[Shabda]

We're all going to reincarnate to one other body after our death because the next body will never die. This age was limited so God could do his work in his select people. This age is about to end and everything on earth will be destroyed. Our created souls will remain in God until our next bodies are available in the new earth. This earth is not suitable for all God's people to live forever so it has to go through a change. The earth's crust will be melted to make a level earth without mountains or oceans. If you're interested, I can tell you all about the future paradise we will live in.
i completely disagree with you on every aspect youve mentioned...the world wont be ending anytime soon, or in the next several centuries...

[thewordofgod]

i completely disagree with you on every aspect youve mentioned...the world wont be ending anytime soon, or in the next several centuries...

You can disagree all you want but God won't change because of you.

[Internal Queries]

We're all going to reincarnate to one other body after our death because the next body will never die. This age was limited so God could do his work in his select people. This age is about to end and everything on earth will be destroyed. Our created souls will remain in God until our next bodies are available in the new earth. This earth is not suitable for all God's people to live forever so it has to go through a change. The earth's crust will be melted to make a level earth without mountains or oceans. If you're interested, I can tell you all about the future paradise we will live in.




ages end all the Time. The Ice Age. The Iron Age. The Bronze Age. The Golden Age. The Dark Ages. this age may be about to end but that doesn't necessarily mean a fiery death for the Earth with only few "chosen people" getting beamed up before the fecal matter hits the fan. an Age is ending ... the world isn't.

[Internal Queries]

You can disagree all you want but God won't change because of you.


"God" may not change on a human whim but you don't know what "God" is up to either.

[thewordofgod]

ages end all the Time. The Ice Age. The Iron Age. The Bronze Age. The Golden Age. The Dark Ages. this age may be about to end but that doesn't necessarily mean a fiery death for the Earth with only few "chosen people" getting beamed up before the fecal matter hits the fan. an Age is ending ... the world isn't.


All those ages are what deceived men dreamed up. There are two ages in God and this first one is almost over. The next one will go on forever.

[thewordofgod]

"God" may not change on a human whim but you don't know what "God" is up to either.

I can tell that you don't know who God is by this one statement.

[Shabda]

I can tell that you don't know who God is by this one statement.
i can tell that you dont either by your one statement...:smile:

[Internal Queries]

I can tell that you don't know who God is by this one statement.


oh i readily and humbly admit that i don't know who or what "God" is or if "God" can even be classified as a who or a what. of course, you don't really know either but you aren't going to humbly admit it.

[Shabda]

oh i readily and humbly admit that i don't know who or what "God" is or if "God" can even be classified as a who or a what. of course, you don't really know either but you aren't going to humbly admit it.
im glad to know im not the only one to have noticed that...:D

[Internal Queries]

All those ages are what deceived men dreamed up. There are two ages in God and this first one is almost over. The next one will go on forever.


gee ...i wonder how an eternal being views time and "ages". the entire life of the human species wouldn't even amount to an eye blink to a being with an infinite life span.

you're a man (human and therefore not infallible) so how do you know you're not just dreaming up another "age"?

[Internal Queries]

im glad to know im not the only one to have noticed that...:D


kinda hard to miss. but oh well, it's okay. some folks get really into "God" their thing.

[mattie]

Allot of sources say before we reincarnate we choose what life circumstances we will be in & meet with. We actively choose our life lessons. This is much the same as we would actively choose what classes we take in a semester in college.

I’ve never read anything that indicated reincarnation was foisted on us w/o our being full partners in the experience.

The element of karma adds some interesting layers to this. If we have incurred karma in the previous lifetime this may be something that is necessary to delve into w/ the next reincarnation.

[Internal Queries]

Allot of sources say before we reincarnate we choose what life circumstances we will be in & meet with. We actively choose our life lessons. This is much the same as we would actively choose what classes we take in a semester in college.

I’ve never read anything that indicated reincarnation was foisted on us w/o our being full partners in the experience.

The element of karma adds some interesting layers to this. If we have incurred karma in the previous lifetime this may be something that is necessary to delve into w/ the next reincarnation.


i see no reason to believe in reincarnation or karma. i have never before been this self. i do not have any previously lives. i am not responsible or in debt for the actions of someone i have never been.

and besides, there are something like 7 BILLION humans on this planet. there are certainly more humans now than when the concept of karma was invented so there has to be a lot of new souls. where do new souls come from and how do new souls accumulate karma and end up on Earth paying debts? and when did humans start getting on the karmic wheel? before or after cro magmon?

[Chrysaetos]

and when did humans start getting on the karmic wheel? before or after cro magmon?IQ,

The karma belief can't answer that one, most of all because it comes from a particular religion (eastern) which denies evolution and all other hominids.

According to the karma belief killing a cow is a bigger sin than killing a lion or a deer. Yet the cow is a domesticated species and a new kid on the block.

Just as it's popular to say ''meat is karma''. Easy to say for a people who are tropical agriculturalists. We know agriculture is recently and that humans are omnivores, so again it makes no sense..

'Karma' is another way for saying I don't know... it doesn't really explain anything. The endless ''wheel'' has no cause so if there's no cause why judge something as good or bad karma? It can't even explain why it exists in the first place, yet people happily accept it.

It's another specific cultural system of ethics that is presented as universal fact.

[mattie]

Internal Queries Quote: ‘i see no reason to believe in reincarnation or karma.’

Some believe in reincarnation & karma, some don’t. This is a personal decision.

Internal Queries Quote: ‘... there are something like 7 BILLION humans on this planet. there are certainly more humans now than when the concept of karma was invented so there has to be a lot of new souls. where do new souls come from ...’

I don’t ever recall hearing that the amount of souls on this planet were restricted by the amount of those here in ancient times.

The new souls come from the same place that our soul came from.

Internal Queries Quote: ‘... how do new souls accumulate karma and end up on Earth paying debts?’

It’s voluntary excursion on this planet. Karma isn’t about paying debts or being punished but achieving balance, wholeness. Having the opportunity to see/live both sides of the issue. For instance if one is a crummy landlord one might come back in the next lifetime as a person who can’t get the landlord to fix anything or a tenant rights advocate.

[mattie]

Chrysaetos Quote: ‘The karma belief can't answer that one, most of all because it comes from a particular religion (eastern) which denies evolution and all other hominids.’

None of the religions gets it all right, but some of them have some parts of it right. There is just as much that eastern religions get wrong as western ones do. They all share the honors in this respect!!!

Crysaetos Quote: ‘Just as it's popular to say ''meat is karma''.’

I assume this saying, 'meat is karma'' that I’ve heard for the first time means one is incurring bad karma by eating meat. This is likely based on the presumption that eating meat isn’t OK. This is curious for several reasons. It only has horror (& presumed bad karma) for eating beings that are like us, that is, beings w/ eyes. It dismisses that we are taking the life force from vegetables, grains , & berries & only feeling guilt about taking the life force from animals. It also often comes from a position of superiority that vegetarians are superior or more pure to those who eat meat. Pointless polarity games.

Eating doesn’t have anything to do w/ karma but what is appropriate nourishment for that organism. Little fish eat plankton-like stuff, big fish eat the little fish, we eat the big fish.

Recent studies have found out that those who are the healthiest are those who eat a small amount of meat along w/ a balanced diet.

Chrysaetos Quote:: ‘'Karma' is another way for saying I don't know... ‘

It’s more like I haven’t learned ... .

Chrysaetos Quote: ‘The endless ''wheel'' has no cause so if there's no cause why judge something as good or bad karma? It can't even explain why it exists in the first place, yet people happily accept it.’

It really isn’t endless. The need for karma ends when we accomplish the learning unique to that dimensional level. At that point we have the option of advancing to the next D.

All of metaphysical thought is in this category even though this is increasingly less bound by morality (ethics) or specific culture. Many have rejected ALL the religious teachings, both western & eastern & feel free to select whatever portions of them that ring true for them as well as develop new concepts about spirituality/energy. These various POVs can go back to the much asked questions of what is god or is there a god or a soul that exists separately from the physical body. How do we know this????

Many POVs & we all have the right to select what POVs we want.

Chrysaetos Quote: ‘It's another specific cultural system of ethics that is presented as universal fact.’

This is true about considering eating meat a religious taboo. Combining morality w/ spirituality is something that has been used historically waaaaay too much as a device to control people.

[Internal Queries]

Internal Queries Quote: ‘i see no reason to believe in reincarnation or karma.’

Some believe in reincarnation & karma, some don’t. This is a personal decision.

that's fine but that doesn't exempt the concept from scrutiny.

Internal Queries Quote: ‘... there are something like 7 BILLION humans on this planet. there are certainly more humans now than when the concept of karma was invented so there has to be a lot of new souls. where do new souls come from ...’

I don’t ever recall hearing that the amount of souls on this planet were restricted by the amount of those here in ancient times.

the point being ... there are billions of humans on this planet living in abject poverty, disease, starvation oppression and war torn misery and they're apparently experiencing "karma" despite that some of them, most of them, must be new souls. where did their karma come from when they're new?

The new souls come from the same place that our soul came from.

Internal Queries Quote: ‘... how do new souls accumulate karma and end up on Earth paying debts?’

It’s voluntary excursion on this planet. Karma isn’t about paying debts or being punished but achieving balance, wholeness. Having the opportunity to see/live both sides of the issue. For instance if one is a crummy landlord one might come back in the next lifetime as a person who can’t get the landlord to fix anything or a tenant rights advocate.

lol what a silly system. a crummy landlord comes back to experience what it's like to live in a place owned crummy landlord. so the crummy landlord in who rented the place to the reincarnated landlord also has to come back to experience what it's like to live in place owned by a crummy landlord who also must rent from a crummy landlord who also has to come back to experience what it's like to rent from a crummy landlord ad infinitum. with a system like that there will never be a time when there aren't crummy landlords. lol the system perpetuates misery.



not sure why but i have to type in this space in order to post my post. lol

[Baldr44]

Allot of sources say before we reincarnate we choose what life circumstances we will be in & meet with. We actively choose our life lessons. This is much the same as we would actively choose what classes we take in a semester in college.

I’ve never read anything that indicated reincarnation was foisted on us w/o our being full partners in the experience.

The element of karma adds some interesting layers to this. If we have incurred karma in the previous lifetime this may be something that is necessary to delve into w/ the next reincarnation.

That is my understanding as well. This was channeled info from my spiritual teacher. There is much evidence available, however, everything can and will be denied from time to time. As Seth has stated in his channeled work, "evidence for reincarnation is all about us" but that was Seth and some don't believe in channeled messages either.

[Internal Queries]

That is my understanding as well. This was channeled info from my spiritual teacher. There is much evidence available, however, everything can and will be denied from time to time. As Seth has stated in his channeled work, "evidence for reincarnation is all about us" but that was Seth and some don't believe in channeled messages either.


you're right. i don't believe in "Seth". i do believe in Jane though. she was one hyper intelligent lady and i think it shame that she had to become male (Rupert and Seth) in order to convey her theories with authority. ah well, that's what can happen when hyper intelligent women live in a male dominated society.

i've had "reincarnational" dreams. i've dreamed of being a run away slave being chased down and ravaged to death by dogs. i've been shot trying to escape from a concentration camp. i've been a soldier watching my chest explode onto snow in front of me. past lives? well, no. because i've also dreamed that i was part of a team of astronauts who were dying in a malfunctioning spaceship, which would make it a future life. so ... linier reincarnation just doesn't gell for me. all of those dreams could simply be timeline bleedthrough, impressions i received from people on other timelines whose vibrational signitures were similar enough to mine that i picked up on them.

PS. hi Balder44!

[Shabda]

you're right. i don't believe in "Seth". i do believe in Jane though. she was one hyper intelligent lady and i think it shame that she had to become male (Rupert and Seth) in order to convey her theories with authority. ah well, that's what can happen when hyper intelligent women live in a male dominated society.

i've had "reincarnational" dreams. i've dreamed of being a run away slave being chased down and ravaged to death by dogs. i've been shot trying to escape from a concentration camp. i've been a soldier watching my chest explode onto snow in front of me. past lives? well, no. because i've also dreamed that i was part of a team of astronauts who were dying in a malfunctioning spaceship, which would make it a future life. so ... linier reincarnation just doesn't gell for me. all of those dreams could simply be timeline bleedthrough, impressions i received from people on other timelines whose vibrational signitures were similar enough to mine that i picked up on them.

PS. hi Balder44!
hmm...im curious, are you certain that you were human or that you were in space from earth? leaving any ancient astronaut theories aside for the moment, it is entirely possible that one could incarnate on another planet somewhere, go into space and die, and it still be a past life, not saying this is the case for you, just suggesting the possibility that might leave it within a linear time scale...or not ~! lol:D

[Internal Queries]

hmm...im curious, are you certain that you were human or that you were in space from earth? leaving any ancient astronaut theories aside for the moment, it is entirely possible that one could incarnate on another planet somewhere, go into space and die, and it still be a past life, not saying this is the case for you, just suggesting the possibility that might leave it within a linear time scale...or not ~! lol:D


nope. we weren't nonEarthlings. in the dream myself and my spacefaring comrades were definately human. we were dying and being so brave about it, joking around with our last breaths.

[Shabda]

nope. we weren't nonEarthlings. in the dream myself and my spacefaring comrades were definately human. we were dying and being so brave about it, joking around with our last breaths.
so you werent one of the 12 "lost tribes" on Battlestar Galactica?? :D i kid i kid...

[Internal Queries]

so you werent one of the 12 "lost tribes" on Battlestar Galactica?? :D i kid i kid...


hehehe! who knows who we were (will be? are now?). personally i not sure that we Earthlings on this timeline will ever make into space in the technological capacity shown in that dream. on this timeline we're too busy inventing fancy weaponry and grabbing money for personal gain to the invest research and developement that would carry us out of our isolated little solar system before we exploit our planet to death.

[Shabda]

hehehe! who knows who we were (will be? are now?). personally i not sure that we Earthlings on this timeline will ever make into space in the technological capacity shown in that dream. on this timeline we're too busy inventing fancy weaponry and grabbing money for personal gain to the invest research and developement that would carry us out of our isolated little solar system before we exploit our planet to death.
i wish i could deny that, but, i cant...:icon_frown:

[Baldr44]

you're right. i don't believe in "Seth". i do believe in Jane though. she was one hyper intelligent lady and i think it shame that she had to become male (Rupert and Seth) in order to convey her theories with authority. ah well, that's what can happen when hyper intelligent women live in a male dominated society.

i've had "reincarnational" dreams. i've dreamed of being a run away slave being chased down and ravaged to death by dogs. i've been shot trying to escape from a concentration camp. i've been a soldier watching my chest explode onto snow in front of me. past lives? well, no. because i've also dreamed that i was part of a team of astronauts who were dying in a malfunctioning spaceship, which would make it a future life. so ... linier reincarnation just doesn't gell for me. all of those dreams could simply be timeline bleedthrough, impressions i received from people on other timelines whose vibrational signitures were similar enough to mine that i picked up on them.

PS. hi Balder44!
Hey, At the risk of sounding totally over the edge, My wife channels Seth from time to time. He often talks about humans who can't hear him. It really annoys him. He is a wonderful energy essense.

[Internal Queries]

Hey, At the risk of sounding totally over the edge, My wife channels Seth from time to time. He often talks about humans who can't hear him. It really annoys him. He is a wonderful energy essense.

i rather hear from Jane. the total lack of acknowledgement of Jane's femininity irritated me when i read her books. i mean, she couldn't even call herself Jane. she had "Seth" calling her "Rupert", "he", "his" and "him" when SHE was channelling. how sad is that?

[Shabda]

Hey, At the risk of sounding totally over the edge, My wife channels Seth from time to time. He often talks about humans who can't hear him. It really annoys him. He is a wonderful energy essense.
if he's so wonderful, why is he getting annoyed at humans that cant hear him?? thats just as much his fault as any human's...

[Baldr44]

if he's so wonderful, why is he getting annoyed at humans that cant hear him?? thats just as much his fault as any human's...

You have free will and most are so tied up in their ego minds that you can't hear from you subconscious mind. The vast majority of the human species has lost the ability to receive channeled messages, not Seth's fault that we can't hear, human de-evolution has precluded that ability. We all at one time communicated through telepathy, on occasion we still do but don't understand it as such. You think of someone you haven't heard from in a long time and suddenly you get a call from them, or you pick up the phone before it rings or you realize what someone wants before they tell you. It happens more than you think but we chalk it up to coincidence.

Seth is around, both Jane (Ruburt, the name designates another portion of her reality)and Robert (Joseph, his name from a previous incarnation) have both passed. It is interesting also that Jane did come through once to my wife.

[Baldr44]

i rather hear from Jane. the total lack of acknowledgement of Jane's femininity irritated me when i read her books. i mean, she couldn't even call herself Jane. she had "Seth" calling her "Rupert", "he", "his" and "him" when SHE was channelling. how sad is that?

Well, its easy to understand if you read the history, they were friends in at least two other life experiences. It is simple, Jane's entity name was Ruburt and Rob's is Joseph, I am Jacob and my wife is Rose. Yet you say she couldn't call herself Jane. Why are her books listed as Jane Roberts? She also wrote poetry and other books signed as Jane, I believe you are mistaken. We all have entity names.

[Shabda]

You have free will and most are so tied up in their ego minds that you can't hear from you subconscious mind. The vast majority of the human species has lost the ability to receive channeled messages, not Seth's fault that we can't hear, human de-evolution has precluded that ability. We all at one time communicated through telepathy, on occasion we still do but don't understand it as such. You think of someone you haven't heard from in a long time and suddenly you get a call from them, or you pick up the phone before it rings or you realize what someone wants before they tell you. It happens more than you think but we chalk it up to coincidence.

Seth is around, both Jane (Ruburt, the name designates another portion of her reality)and Robert (Joseph, his name from a previous incarnation) have both passed. It is interesting also that Jane did come through once to my wife.
i beg to differ...it IS seth's fault that he chooses NOT to speak on a vibratory level that a human can hear, simple as that im afraid, so he can hardly blame humans and get annoyed by them, for if he is THAT subject to emotion, he is lacking in emotional control, i say this because i know it to be true....i understand how "gifts" work and all, so im not disagreeing with you that most simply ignore what they have available for sense perception, but no one can simply blame the other for being lazy or not caring enough, for that simply isnt the whole truth, and then there's the matter of permission...if seth wants to get annoyed with someone that simply doesnt want or care to hear what he has to say, then he needs to shove off and go find someone more willing, simple fact, he has no choice in what one will accept or not, and he cant force the issue either....not ragging on seth or anyone else mind you, just pointing out that there is another perspective on what youve reported seth to have said regarding humans...

[Internal Queries]

Well, its easy to understand if you read the history, they were friends in at least two other life experiences. It is simple, Jane's entity name was Ruburt and Rob's is Joseph, I am Jacob and my wife is Rose. Yet you say she couldn't call herself Jane. Why are her books listed as Jane Roberts? She also wrote poetry and other books signed as Jane, I believe you are mistaken. We all have entity names.

i could be mistaken but i'm not ... not so far as the psychological and sociological ramifications of an all male entity collective using a female body as a tool without acknowledging her. sure, she got to put her name on the books but she was effectively excluded from participation in her own mind. perhaps one has to be sans penis to understand why that kind of autonomy, even if only symbolic, is reprehensible.

[DivineLove]

i could be mistaken but i'm not ... not so far as the psychological and sociological ramifications of an all male entity collective using a female body as a tool without acknowledging her. sure, she got to put her name on the books but she was effectively excluded from participation in her own mind. perhaps one has to be sans penis to understand why that kind of autonomy, even if only symbolic, is reprehensible.
I've spent a few days now, listening to some Seth material channeled through Jane Roberts.
Also, in everything that she writes, it's pretty clear, that she has a great affinity towards this being, Seth.
Who knew the soul within Jane, from previous lives. So he "affectionately" refers to her as Rupert.

I don't think any of it is demeaning or meant to belittle her. They are friends. And what they choose to call one another, is really a matter of their choosing.

For example. With my friends. They may use my first name, or any other nick name they come up with. As I don't mind, if it is a close friend. What do I care, what they refer to me as? So long as it's not negative.
This is a liberty reserved for close friends. People that are not friends, I would prefer they use my first name, without alteration.

In this scenario, these beings, are friends. And the spirit on the other side of the veil, chooses to refer to the soul of the medium, as Rupert.

If it is not a problem for either of them, why is it in question here?

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. But from what I have heard and read, there exists a great affinity, between these two souls.
That is how I perceive the dynamic to be, thus far.

[Internal Queries]

I've spent a few days now, listening to some Seth material channeled through Jane Roberts.
Also, in everything that she writes, it's pretty clear, that she has a great affinity towards this being, Seth.
Who knew the soul within Jane, from previous lives. So he "affectionately" refers to her as Rupert.

I don't think any of it is demeaning or meant to belittle her. They are friends. And what they choose to call one another, is really a matter of their choosing.

For example. With my friends. They may use my first name, or any other nick name they come up with. As I don't mind, if it is a close friend. What do I care, what they refer to me as? So long as it's not negative.
This is a liberty reserved for close friends. People that are not friends, I would prefer they use my first name, without alteration.

In this scenario, these beings, are friends. And the spirit on the other side of the veil, chooses to refer to the soul of the medium, as Rupert.

If it is not a problem for either of them, why is it in question here?

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. But from what I have heard and read so far, there exists a great affinity, between these two souls.
That is how I perceive the dynamic to be, thus far.

yeah yeah yeah, i know the whys and wherefores but it irritated me none the less. masculinity glorified while femininity is sublimated yet again and some more.

oh well, nevermind.

[DivineLove]

yeah yeah yeah, i know the whys and wherefores but it irritated me none the less. masculinity glorified while femininity is sublimated yet again and some more.

oh well, nevermind.

Well, you can view the subject, in any light that you wish.

That is your choosing.

If you want to color it as the "feminine being sublimated", certainly that is one view.

I just sense a great affinity between these two beings. That is what I perceive, so that is what I have written.

Jane would not channel this entity, if she did not at least have an affinity towards him. An affinity, is an understatement, from what I have gleaned.
There is great love, and they work together, to bring us messages from the other side.

As far as the male/female imbalances that have existed culturally. I would say that the scales are definitely tilting in the right direction. Given our history.

The dominance held by the male gender, in certain areas, is being challenged day after day, year after year, by more and more females, and the old paradigm is fading, as it should.

Do not worry friend, there is less and less sublimating going on!:hug:
The Universal forces seek to balance all things.

[Internal Queries]

Well, you can view the subject, in any light that you wish.

That is your choosing.

If you want to color it as the "feminine being sublimated", certainly that is one view.

I just sense a great affinity between these two beings. That is what I perceive, so that is what I have written.

Jane would not channel this entity, if she did not at least have an affinity towards him. An affinity, is an understatement, from what I have gleaned.
There is great love, and they work together, to bring us messages from the other side.

As far as the male/female imbalances that have existed culturally. I would say that the scales are definitely tilting in the right direction. Given our history.

The dominance held by the male gender, in certain areas, is being challenged day after day, year after year, by more and more females, and the old paradigm is fading, as it should.

Do not worry friend, there is less and less sublimating going on!:hug:
The Universal forces seek to balance all things.


well, that's the difference between your view and mine. i don't see two beings. i see one brilliant woman who on a subconscious level felt she had to abdictate HER power to a male aspect so HER brilliance could shine through.

and yeah, there has been some progress in correcting the imbalance.

((hugs))

[Baldr44]

yeah yeah yeah, i know the whys and wherefores but it irritated me none the less. masculinity glorified while femininity is sublimated yet again and some more.

oh well, nevermind.

The whole thing really had nothing do with male or female, Seth was more in tune with the male aspect of who Jane was in a previous experience. Ruburt is who Jane really is and Joseph is who Rob really is. I am not Baldr44, I am Jacob (Jake my entity name). You can find out your entity name by asking your spirit guide. According to Seth, our psyche is both male and female. The Nature of the Psyche the human expression 1979 Jane Roberts

[Sangress]

Do we have a choice on where we come back to ?


Do we have a choice to maybe NOT come back ?
Personally, I see reincarnation as a continuum until the cycle or process of personal development is ready to move onto another cycle of existence and so on so forth.

I think that perhaps we finish incarnating when we are ready and prepared enough to lead a permanent spiritual existence, rather than by choice.

I suppose for some there would be a choice of whether the incarnate immediately or wait a bit longer, but I think that if an individual hasn't finished their time within a body, then they will come back until they are done with it. It's a bit like how people can't stop breathing when they decide not to, it's natural for people to breathe just as its natural for souls to incarnate to grow and experience more.

As for where we incarnate. I suppose we "drop from the sky" wherever and whenever we need to. Perhaps we go to physical places that has an abundance of the experiences we have not been exposed to enough times, or ever, or perhaps our location revolves around a great axis among many other souls who we interact and learn from each time around.

[Internal Queries]

You are way out of your league on this one. You really don't have any concept of what is really going on. It seems that due to a general disbelief of reincarnation and that we do have a choice on not only how but why we want to incarnate over and over. Up to and including what sexual aspect we desire. We can decide on a male or female experience. The three of them had been friends and males in a previous existence. Hence the use of he, him etc. But of course this is all nonsense to you as you have your own ideology. Free will, ain't it great. Again, as usual, if you can't see, taste, touch, feel or hear it, it doesn't exisit:rolleyes:


"Again, as usual, if you can't see, taste, touch, feel or hear it, it doesn't exisit"

untrue and hyperbole. i just view such things differently than you do. i view Jane and her work wholisticly and multidimensions and parallel timelines more literally.

and btw ... you haven't clue enough about me to know what league i'm in.

[LightBearer]

some here are not giving internal queries the credit he deserves for his inquisitive nature, because it is leading him on the right track.

So what? no one needs to believe in channelings or anything else, the truth iswhat lays in the heart, and perspective changes everything. What is accurate from one level is broad brush and in some instances untrue from another level.

at one level of understanding electricity flows like water through electrical cables, from another level elctrons flow in one direction creating a backdraft almost drawing current in the opposite direction. both are correct, however you can not solve all problems from the first perspective thus further queries are required.

from the top of my head, (as there is a lot of comments on this thread),

Karma is a word, understand it is cause and effect, it relates to you as an individual not some supernatural get even clause. Karma in its most basic level is psychology of the soul. It is you and how you relate to the universe around you. your actions have reactions. other peoples actions cause reactions in you, which cause reactions in others and so it goes on the never ending wheel of karma. karma will continue until every sentient being chooses to stop reacting and start being.

manifestation. this is a complete deception, if you try and manifest anything it will never happen. no true spiritual teacher will ever tell you you can manifest anything, let alone a new specific incarnation. manifestation is like the electricity flowing through water analogy. from a very low level it is all very miraculous, from a practitioner level (so to speak) it is not what is attracted to you, it is what you are atracted to. What you are attracted to will be within reach through appropriate actions and reactions. you are not going to be a surgeon by being born as one. you become a surgeon by studying, passing exams in the top percentile and working hard. you will not do this any other way (incidently i may be wrong is the future surgeon the same person who is the scholar of hinduism budhism etc etc etc, because this should really be basics if that is the case)

linear reincarnation. there is no foundation on the subject of linear incarnation. incarnation takes place in a plane where time doesnt exist, or more appropriately a dimension of no time, therefore there is no linear reincarnations. there are many simultanious incarnations in a no time environment, it is only us that put timelines on events. so with this in mind, our multidimensional being will understand future incarnations as well as past (but view them as simultaneous events)

with simultineity in mind, then in a no time environment there is no reincarnation, merely incarnation of many aspects of the one multidimensional being. erik has one incarnation as erik which is his multidimensional being at the erik level. erik will not be back, because his simultaneous no time incarnations are underway. his multidimensional being will be here many times.

choice of reincarnation. like manifestation it is attraction but not what is attracted to you, what you are attracted to, but in a more fundamental level. at a reactionary level. you do not sit and say, oh id like to be a pop star and live in a big house. these things are human issues and of no relevance to spirit. ill spell it out, i hinted at this previously. on passing to spirit, you aill see a number of doorways, or sources of light (go to the light yada yada) the only sources you will see as atractive are those which are of your vibration, if your a scumbag your attractive light source will not be the same as a good and selfless persons. it is the doorway we choose that decides where and to whom we are incarnated. this in no way apportions career, or tests or anyother human claptrap, remember spirit could not care less what your career is or what type of watch you wear, it is concerned with the value of the soul. forget your human issues it does not work that way.

p.s. i have trained in many cultures and doctrines over very many years.

[Chrysaetos]

Karma isn't just mere cause and effect, it implies a supernatural system of morality.
The New Age interpretations tend to be very woolly and compatible with a liberal society (''you are a unique autonomous person''),
but that's not where karma was made up. Anyhow, it doesn't really get at the trouble of karma, i.e. why it even exists..

How would you know sentient beings are not ''being'' and just reacting?

[Internal Queries]

some here are not giving internal queries the credit he deserves for his inquisitive nature, because it is leading him on the right track.

So what? no one needs to believe in channelings or anything else, the truth iswhat lays in the heart, and perspective changes everything. What is accurate from one level is broad brush and in some instances untrue from another level.

at one level of understanding electricity flows like water through electrical cables, from another level elctrons flow in one direction creating a backdraft almost drawing current in the opposite direction. both are correct, however you can not solve all problems from the first perspective thus further queries are required.

from the top of my head, (as there is a lot of comments on this thread),

Karma is a word, understand it is cause and effect, it relates to you as an individual not some supernatural get even clause. Karma in its most basic level is psychology of the soul. It is you and how you relate to the universe around you. your actions have reactions. other peoples actions cause reactions in you, which cause reactions in others and so it goes on the never ending wheel of karma. karma will continue until every sentient being chooses to stop reacting and start being.

manifestation. this is a complete deception, if you try and manifest anything it will never happen. no true spiritual teacher will ever tell you you can manifest anything, let alone a new specific incarnation. manifestation is like the electricity flowing through water analogy. from a very low level it is all very miraculous, from a practitioner level (so to speak) it is not what is attracted to you, it is what you are atracted to. What you are attracted to will be within reach through appropriate actions and reactions. you are not going to be a surgeon by being born as one. you become a surgeon by studying, passing exams in the top percentile and working hard. you will not do this any other way (incidently i may be wrong is the future surgeon the same person who is the scholar of hinduism budhism etc etc etc, because this should really be basics if that is the case)

linear reincarnation. there is no foundation on the subject of linear incarnation. incarnation takes place in a plane where time doesnt exist, or more appropriately a dimension of no time, therefore there is no linear reincarnations. there are many simultanious incarnations in a no time environment, it is only us that put timelines on events. so with this in mind, our multidimensional being will understand future incarnations as well as past (but view them as simultaneous events)

with simultineity in mind, then in a no time environment there is no reincarnation, merely incarnation of many aspects of the one multidimensional being. erik has one incarnation as erik which is his multidimensional being at the erik level. erik will not be back, because his simultaneous no time incarnations are underway. his multidimensional being will be here many times.

choice of reincarnation. like manifestation it is attraction but not what is attracted to you, what you are attracted to, but in a more fundamental level. at a reactionary level. you do not sit and say, oh id like to be a pop star and live in a big house. these things are human issues and of no relevance to spirit. ill spell it out, i hinted at this previously. on passing to spirit, you aill see a number of doorways, or sources of light (go to the light yada yada) the only sources you will see as atractive are those which are of your vibration, if your a scumbag your attractive light source will not be the same as a good and selfless persons. it is the doorway we choose that decides where and to whom we are incarnated. this in no way apportions career, or tests or anyother human claptrap, remember spirit could not care less what your career is or what type of watch you wear, it is concerned with the value of the soul. forget your human issues it does not work that way.

p.s. i have trained in many cultures and doctrines over very many years.


excellent summary, concisely put. thank you.

[Internal Queries]

Karma isn't just mere cause and effect, it implies a supernatural system of morality.
The New Age interpretations tend to be very woolly and compatible with a liberal society (''you are a unique autonomous person''),
but that's not where karma was made up. Anyhow, it doesn't really get at the trouble of karma, i.e. why it even exists..

How would you know sentient beings are not ''being'' and just reacting?


and the system doesn't even make sense. eat a hamburger come back as a cow to experience becoming hamburger. how does that alleviate the sad living conditions of cows?

[Shabda]

and the system doesn't even make sense. eat a hamburger come back as a cow to experience becoming hamburger. how does that alleviate the sad living conditions of cows?
who said that eating a hamburger was a karmic action??

[GoddessLove]

Hi Lynn...

I hope we have a choice.

If so, I'm definitely NOT coming back to this place again:):):):):)

[Internal Queries]

who said that eating a hamburger was a karmic action??


um ... the Hindus from whose religion the concept of karma arises.

[Baldr44]

some here are not giving internal queries the credit he deserves for his inquisitive nature, because it is leading him on the right track.

So what? no one needs to believe in channelings or anything else, the truth iswhat lays in the heart, and perspective changes everything. What is accurate from one level is broad brush and in some instances untrue from another level.

at one level of understanding electricity flows like water through electrical cables, from another level elctrons flow in one direction creating a backdraft almost drawing current in the opposite direction. both are correct, however you can not solve all problems from the first perspective thus further queries are required.

from the top of my head, (as there is a lot of comments on this thread),

Karma is a word, understand it is cause and effect, it relates to you as an individual not some supernatural get even clause. Karma in its most basic level is psychology of the soul. It is you and how you relate to the universe around you. your actions have reactions. other peoples actions cause reactions in you, which cause reactions in others and so it goes on the never ending wheel of karma. karma will continue until every sentient being chooses to stop reacting and start being.

manifestation. this is a complete deception, if you try and manifest anything it will never happen. no true spiritual teacher will ever tell you you can manifest anything, let alone a new specific incarnation. manifestation is like the electricity flowing through water analogy. from a very low level it is all very miraculous, from a practitioner level (so to speak) it is not what is attracted to you, it is what you are atracted to. What you are attracted to will be within reach through appropriate actions and reactions. you are not going to be a surgeon by being born as one. you become a surgeon by studying, passing exams in the top percentile and working hard. you will not do this any other way (incidently i may be wrong is the future surgeon the same person who is the scholar of hinduism budhism etc etc etc, because this should really be basics if that is the case)

linear reincarnation. there is no foundation on the subject of linear incarnation. incarnation takes place in a plane where time doesnt exist, or more appropriately a dimension of no time, therefore there is no linear reincarnations. there are many simultanious incarnations in a no time environment, it is only us that put timelines on events. so with this in mind, our multidimensional being will understand future incarnations as well as past (but view them as simultaneous events)

with simultineity in mind, then in a no time environment there is no reincarnation, merely incarnation of many aspects of the one multidimensional being. erik has one incarnation as erik which is his multidimensional being at the erik level. erik will not be back, because his simultaneous no time incarnations are underway. his multidimensional being will be here many times.

choice of reincarnation. like manifestation it is attraction but not what is attracted to you, what you are attracted to, but in a more fundamental level. at a reactionary level. you do not sit and say, oh id like to be a pop star and live in a big house. these things are human issues and of no relevance to spirit. ill spell it out, i hinted at this previously. on passing to spirit, you aill see a number of doorways, or sources of light (go to the light yada yada) the only sources you will see as atractive are those which are of your vibration, if your a scumbag your attractive light source will not be the same as a good and selfless persons. it is the doorway we choose that decides where and to whom we are incarnated. this in no way apportions career, or tests or anyother human claptrap, remember spirit could not care less what your career is or what type of watch you wear, it is concerned with the value of the soul. forget your human issues it does not work that way.

p.s. i have trained in many cultures and doctrines over very many years.

From what you are saying then, there are no lightworkers. Since there is no ability to come into this existence as anything in particular. Actually it is indeed what you place into your subconscious with intent that puts you into position for what you chose. If there is negative karma, then that must be delt with on the plane from which it arose. Afterwards you can be what you've decided to be. One may come here to clear up some bad karma.

We have choices. There are many who chose to come here as leaders, prophets, teachers and helpers (and yes light workers)
Perhaps you could read http://dragonofdrama.com/why_3d and give that some thought.

[Internal Queries]

From what you are saying then, there are no lightworkers. Since there is no ability to come into this existence as anything in particular. Actually it is indeed what you place into your subconscious with intent that puts you into position for what you chose. If there is negative karma, then that must be delt with on the plane from which it arose. Afterwards you can be what you've decided to be. One may come here to clear up some bad karma.

We have choices. There are many who chose to come here as leaders, prophets, teachers and helpers (and yes light workers)
Perhaps you could read http://dragonofdrama.com/why_3d and give that some thought.

nature manifests without "intent". living things grow and evolve spontaneously under the duress of the environment from which they spring. i fail to understand why humans would be any different than the rest of nature. anything you chose to do and be is natural ... not supernatural. whatever evolving you do is dependent on your environment (external and internal) and the pressures that environment puts on you.

[StephenK]

Hmmmm "Belief Juggling".... sure gets old after awhile... historically, stuff has been observed, someone puts it into words, people relate to the way
that the concepts are presented, then expound and fineness these concepts into beliefs of validation or fear.

What a royal waste of time....

"Emotionally" we're driven by a time we don't remember... more specifically by our early childhood... among those days before memories stuck. As
infants and young toddlers we absorbed our surroundings like a sponge. By the time we started to think and remember we were pretty-much locked
into a mindset of emotional relating.

And so we think... and we emotionally relate-to.... the two don't often fit together very well...

Instead of trying to reach far afield for the promised answers to to some ultimate reality.... perhaps it's better that we focus on what moves us... and
then why those emotional assumptions are so.

Why are we stuck in a pattern of repetition where the words tend to change but our attachments remain stubborn? Is it possible that the best
way to explore the big things that await us is by reviewing this life-times attachments as a visceral means of clearing the deck. How can we move
forward without knowing where we came from? How can we quiet the mind and inner noise if we're constantly trying to overcoat our reactions with
plastic beliefs built on the insistence of others haplessly doing the same?

...the ~quiet mind~ is free of belief.... the moment we try and explain what we don't "directly" know then we've wondered into a mess of our own making.

An Absolute-knowing of just "why" we're here doesn't seem to be part of the scenario. So I trust that it's all for a perfectly good reason. Otherwise
what a silly process to go through... So to the big-picture stuff, I've let-go.... my goodness does that free-up the mind-space... :^)

I now look around me and see what needs addressing... in the now, in real time, and directly proportionate to the challenges and pleasures at hand...

I look for the patterns of my reactions and responses and endeavor to unravel their Pavlovian aspects. It's amazing how doable this is... get our
heads and our long-held knee jerk reactions out of the way and life becomes adventurous in a constantly regenerative way.

This old-school obsession with belief-juggling is like swimming through quicksand.. it's a great way of working one's hind-end off while remaining in pretty-much the
same place....

[StephenK]

nature manifests without "intent". living things grow and evolve spontaneously under the duress of the environment from which they spring. i fail to understand why humans would be any different than the rest of nature. anything you chose to do and be is natural ... not supernatural. whatever evolving you do is dependent on your environment (external and internal) and the pressures that environment puts on you.

Bingo! :^)

[Baldr44]

nature manifests without "intent". living things grow and evolve spontaneously under the duress of the environment from which they spring. i fail to understand why humans would be any different than the rest of nature. anything you chose to do and be is natural ... not supernatural. whatever evolving you do is dependent on your environment (external and internal) and the pressures that environment puts on you.
I believe your truest words to date, "I fail to understand"!! Pretty much covers it. Again you might want to read http://dragonofdrama.com/why_3d

[Baldr44]

Hmmmm "Belief Juggling".... sure gets old after awhile... historically, stuff has been observed, someone puts it into words, people relate to the way
that the concepts are presented, then expound and fineness these concepts into beliefs of validation or fear.

What a royal waste of time....

"Emotionally" we're driven by a time we don't remember... more specifically by our early childhood... among those days before memories stuck. As
infants and young toddlers we absorbed our surroundings like a sponge. By the time we started to think and remember we were pretty-much locked
into a mindset of emotional relating.

And so we think... and we emotionally relate-to.... the two don't often fit together very well...

Instead of trying to reach far afield for the promised answers to to some ultimate reality.... perhaps it's better that we focus on what moves us... and
then why those emotional assumptions are so.

Why are we stuck in a pattern of repetition where the words tend to change but our attachments remain stubborn? Is it possible that the best
way to explore the big things that await us is by reviewing this life-times attachments as a visceral means of clearing the deck. How can we move
forward without knowing where we came from? How can we quiet the mind and inner noise if we're constantly trying to overcoat our reactions with
plastic beliefs built on the insistence of others haplessly doing the same?

...the ~quiet mind~ is free of belief.... the moment we try and explain what we don't "directly" know then we've wondered into a mess of our own making.

An Absolute-knowing of just "why" we're here doesn't seem to be part of the scenario. So I trust that it's all for a perfectly good reason. Otherwise
what a silly process to go through... So to the big-picture stuff, I've let-go.... my goodness does that free-up the mind-space... :^)

I now look around me and see what needs addressing... in the now, in real time, and directly proportionate to the challenges and pleasures at hand...

I look for the patterns of my reactions and responses and endeavor to unravel their Pavlovian aspects. It's amazing how doable this is... get our
heads and our long-held knee jerk reactions out of the way and life becomes adventurous in a constantly regenerative way.

This old-school obsession with belief-juggling is like swimming through quicksand.. it's a great way of working one's hind-end off while remaining in pretty-much the
same place....
You may also want to read http://dragonofdrama.com/why_3d Unless of course you stuck in your own belief juggling

[Internal Queries]

I believe your truest words to date, "I fail to understand"!! Pretty much covers it. Again you might want to read http://dragonofdrama.com/why_3d


okay. i scanned the wordiness of the "dragonofdrama" and read nothing that hasn't already been said, from a position in 3D reality, a gazillion times before. what am i suppose to read there that negates the fact that you're dependent on your environment for your existance, no matter how many Ds you're existing in?

regardless of what reality i experience "i'm" still there or "i'" wouldn't be experiencing it and if i'm experiencing it "i" must be using senses of some kind and those senses have to be reacting to stimuli and stimuli is only possible in an environment. ALL possible environments are natural in a Universe of infinite possibilities. i call these environments The Divine Circumstance and not even void can exist can without a circumstance to exist in ... not even gods and you.

look, it's fine with me if you want to believe that you can manipulate the Universe into moving to your whims. if believing that the Universe will set up, generations in advance, the genetics of your future body, arrange for all the series of events, the meetings, the partings, circumstances small and large, the butterfly fluttering it's wings at just right moment and all the tiny essential minutia that comes about naturally, while overcoming any complexities upwelling from conflicting desire fulfillment demanded by others such as yourself, all this at your command so you can have the comfy prestigious future life you desire and deserve, makes you feel powerful, secure and in control then ... more power to ya. good luck with that!

[7luminaries]

some here are not giving internal queries the credit he deserves for his inquisitive nature, because it is leading him on the right track.

So what? no one needs to believe in channelings or anything else, the truth iswhat lays in the heart, and perspective changes everything. What is accurate from one level is broad brush and in some instances untrue from another level.

at one level of understanding electricity flows like water through electrical cables, from another level elctrons flow in one direction creating a backdraft almost drawing current in the opposite direction. both are correct, however you can not solve all problems from the first perspective thus further queries are required.

from the top of my head, (as there is a lot of comments on this thread),

Karma is a word, understand it is cause and effect, it relates to you as an individual not some supernatural get even clause. Karma in its most basic level is psychology of the soul. It is you and how you relate to the universe around you. your actions have reactions. other peoples actions cause reactions in you, which cause reactions in others and so it goes on the never ending wheel of karma. karma will continue until every sentient being chooses to stop reacting and start being.

manifestation. this is a complete deception, if you try and manifest anything it will never happen. no true spiritual teacher will ever tell you you can manifest anything, let alone a new specific incarnation. manifestation is like the electricity flowing through water analogy. from a very low level it is all very miraculous, from a practitioner level (so to speak) it is not what is attracted to you, it is what you are atracted to. What you are attracted to will be within reach through appropriate actions and reactions. you are not going to be a surgeon by being born as one. you become a surgeon by studying, passing exams in the top percentile and working hard. you will not do this any other way (incidently i may be wrong is the future surgeon the same person who is the scholar of hinduism budhism etc etc etc, because this should really be basics if that is the case)

linear reincarnation. there is no foundation on the subject of linear incarnation. incarnation takes place in a plane where time doesnt exist, or more appropriately a dimension of no time, therefore there is no linear reincarnations. there are many simultanious incarnations in a no time environment, it is only us that put timelines on events. so with this in mind, our multidimensional being will understand future incarnations as well as past (but view them as simultaneous events)

with simultineity in mind, then in a no time environment there is no reincarnation, merely incarnation of many aspects of the one multidimensional being. erik has one incarnation as erik which is his multidimensional being at the erik level. erik will not be back, because his simultaneous no time incarnations are underway. his multidimensional being will be here many times.

choice of reincarnation. like manifestation it is attraction but not what is attracted to you, what you are attracted to, but in a more fundamental level. at a reactionary level. you do not sit and say, oh id like to be a pop star and live in a big house. these things are human issues and of no relevance to spirit. ill spell it out, i hinted at this previously. on passing to spirit, you aill see a number of doorways, or sources of light (go to the light yada yada) the only sources you will see as atractive are those which are of your vibration, if your a scumbag your attractive light source will not be the same as a good and selfless persons. it is the doorway we choose that decides where and to whom we are incarnated. this in no way apportions career, or tests or anyother human claptrap, remember spirit could not care less what your career is or what type of watch you wear, it is concerned with the value of the soul. forget your human issues it does not work that way.

p.s. i have trained in many cultures and doctrines over very many years.

Well said, LightBearer. I found your post clear and containing much basic truth. I hope many get some clarity and understanding from it.

Peace,
7L

[StephenK]

You may also want to read http://dragonofdrama.com/why_3d (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252Fvb%2525252 525252Fredir.php%2525252525253Flink%2525252525253D http%252525252525253A%252525252525252F%25252525252 5252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%252525252525252Fvb%25 2525252525252Fredir.php%252525252525253Flink%25252 5252525253Dhttp%25252525252525253A%252525252525252 52F%25252525252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525 2525252525252Fvb%25252525252525252Fredir.php%25252 525252525253Flink%25252525252525253Dhttp%252525252 5252525253A%2525252525252525252F%25252525252525252 52Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252525252Fvb% 2525252525252525252Fredir.php%2525252525252525253F link%2525252525252525253Dhttp%25252525252525252525 3A%252525252525252525252F%252525252525252525252Fww w.spiritualforums.com%252525252525252525252Fvb%252 525252525252525252Fredir.php%252525252525252525253 Flink%252525252525252525253Dhttp%25252525252525252 525253A%25252525252525252525252F%25252525252525252 525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252525252 5252Fvb%25252525252525252525252Fredir.php%25252525 252525252525253Flink%25252525252525252525253Dhttp% 2525252525252525252525253A%25252525252525252525252 52F%2525252525252525252525252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%2525252525252525252525252Fvb%25252525252525252 52525252Fredir.php%2525252525252525252525253Flink% 2525252525252525252525253Dhttp%2525252525252525252 52525253A%252525252525252525252525252F%25252525252 5252525252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%252525252 525252525252525252Fvb%252525252525252525252525252F redir.php%252525252525252525252525253Flink%2525252 52525252525252525253Dhttp%252525252525252525252525 25253A%25252525252525252525252525252F%252525252525 25252525252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525 252525252525252525252Fvb%2525252525252525252525252 5252Fredir.php%25252525252525252525252525253Flink% 25252525252525252525252525253Dhttp%252525252525252 5252525252525253A%2525252525252525252525252525252F %2525252525252525252525252525252Fwww.spiritualforu ms.com%2525252525252525252525252525252Fvb%25252525 25252525252525252525252Fredir.php%2525252525252525 252525252525253Flink%25252525252525252525252525252 53Dhttp%252525252525252525252525252525253A%2525252 52525252525252525252525252F%2525252525252525252525 25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252525 2525252525252525252Fvb%252525252525252525252525252 525252Fredir.php%252525252525252525252525252525253 Flink%252525252525252525252525252525253Dhttp%25252 525252525252525252525252525253A%252525252525252525 25252525252525252F%2525252525252525252525252525252 5252Fdragonofdrama.com%252525252525252525252525252 52525252Fwhy_3d) Unless of course you stuck in your own belief juggling
Actually you helped to make my point for me... :^)

Note this observation by the author you pointed me to:

---

"The religious concept of “hell” is a construct of the human mind. The only hell you will find yourself in is the one you create for yourself which
does not exist after you die but exist in the confines of your mind right here and now and is one that beckons you to accountability either in this
life or a future incarnation. The manifestation of a “living hell” occurs as self-evident results present in your circumstances and events. "

---

"...is a construct of the human mind". He acknowledges this himself and then goes on to entertain constructs of his own.

Would not the wisest first approach to self awareness be the one that first ~undoes~ the private human-mindset-emotionally-warped-conditioning
before tackling the big-picture stuff? To first evaporate the "construct of the human minds" driven-filters through personal examination, in
conjunction with intuitive empathy for all those we share this living experience with...?

Traditionally, the average person is judging, defining and charting a course based on reflexive responses that arises from this conditioning.

Even if this guy was dead-on you would read it in one way today.. and as you clarify, dissolve and evolve, you would likely read the same thing quite
differently later.

Isn't it kinda funny that we'll say stuff like "living in the present" or "being in the now"... and then scatter our thoughts to the wind to describe what
that means... It finally made sense to me what this "living in the now" actually is... just live in the ~present~, address and dissolve what gets in the way of doings so
effectively... and wake-up to the now as ones visceral experience...

....and then out of that simplicity eagerly blend and integrate with what freshly presents itself...

Belief juggling is anything but that..... :^)

[ToltecWarrior]

Toltec's believe that prior to incarnation each individual must write a script. I think what is important about this is that if we have written a script then surely our script must include and incorporate all the other scripts past present and future! As it goes I don't know much about this, who would? but I do tend to trust Toltec beliefs, don't ask me why.

[Internal Queries]

coolness, StephenK!

though i admit i do enjoy a nice stroll through the Garden of Endless Speculation, especially if i have good companionship with whom to dissect the colorful and various flowering weeds of speculation ... folks who are fiesty and as arrogant as i am. lol

[Baldr44]

Wow, and I thought we would never agree on anything.

[Internal Queries]

Wow, and I thought we would never agree on anything.


hehehe! ((((hugs Balder44))))

[Windchime159]

i think you would be very interested in the Tebetian Book of the Dead

i believe if one is aware of his true being and existance he will be able to see through much of the illusions that await after death, those who have not yet awakened will end up trapping there own mind to be subjected to the natural flow of the universe based off their current state

those who are good will reap the benifit of there good karma, those who cause harm will feel the backlash of their actions, but depending on your state of being you may go through the expirance with self aware-ness and be able to choose your next incarnation, those who dont are subjected to their pre-exsisting views and emotions towards death

reincarnation is what you want though, you want to continue to progress and unveil your inner self

[Baldr44]

i think you would be very interested in the Tebetian Book of the Dead

i believe if one is aware of his true being and existance he will be able to see through much of the illusions that await after death, those who have not yet awakened will end up trapping there own mind to be subjected to the natural flow of the universe based off their current state

those who are good will reap the benifit of there good karma, those who cause harm will feel the backlash of their actions, but depending on your state of being you may go through the expirance with self aware-ness and be able to choose your next incarnation, those who dont are subjected to their pre-exsisting views and emotions towards death

reincarnation is what you want though, you want to continue to progress and unveil your inner self

I've not read it in all, but have skimed through it. While those who have had a less than desireable existence do have a opportunity to return. This would give them ample time to fix any negative Karma. It is true that karma can build up over several life experiences. Only up to a point, if one doesn't get it after a few incarnations, they are held up for more intense training. Then, they get another chance. You might want to read over a web page and the description for why we have 3 dimensional experiences.
http://dragonofdrama.com/why_3d
I thimk you might enjoy the perspective from a channeled source.
I am partial to this particular site as it is my wife's.