What is the best tool for Divination?

[I-Ching]

I would like to hear what other people think is the best tool to use for Divination and why?

I personally think the I-Ching is the best tool, because a pendulum can be influenced by your subconscious, whereas coins can't.

I prefer it to tarot because hexagrams give a clearer message whereas the images in cards leave a lot to your own interpretation.

[Quintessence]

Best tool? Whichever method/tool that works best for you, personally. This means taking the time and effort to both explore and learn a system well enough that you can use it competently.

[IsleWalker]

I personally think the I-Ching is the best tool, because a pendulum can be influenced by your subconscious, whereas coins can't.
I-Ching--

Coins can be just as influenced by your subconscious as the pendulum. In fact, the influence isn't anything to be discouraged. It is coming through you--you are the medium through which the information flows. That's not bad--it's what would make your predictions different from other people's. Each might focus on a different aspect.

Of course there is always the problem of inserting our *wishes*. Not really sure how --or even if--we could/should get rid of all of that.

Sorry to be harsh earlier. Do you feel connected through i-ching?

IsleWalker - Lora

[Occultist]

Yourself you are the best tool.

[LadyTerra]

I think that choosing Tools of Divination is a very personal and idividualistic type of endeavor.

IMO--(often-times) the Tools choose us and we may find ourselves expanding and using new Tools as our path progresses.

I started w/ Tarot--now I use many different methods of Divination. However--my personal favorites are Tarot and Candlewax.

Peace and Love on the path of your choice...

Blessed be...

[I-Ching]

Best tool? Whichever method/tool that works best for you, personally. This means taking the time and effort to both explore and learn a system well enough that you can use it competently.

What if you concoct your own system? I initially tried Divine by converting the binary results of throwing coins into letters but I didn't get anything intelligible out of it.

What if you use a system that is concocted by others? I tried to use something called the Oracle of Rama and I didn't think it worked very well.

What if your own judgement of a means of Divination is clouded by your own conditioning?

[I-Ching]

Yourself you are the best tool.
If you are still conditioned by lust, greed, pride, etc; how can you be the best tool?

[I-Ching]

Coins can be just as influenced by your subconscious as the pendulum.

If this is true then why don't you prove your theory at a casino.
I know that if I hold a pendulum on pie chart, I can think of digit and the pendulum will start to point to it, without any physical movement on my part. I certainly could not do that with with coins.


In fact, the influence isn't anything to be discouraged. It is coming through you--you are the medium through which the information flows. That's not bad--it's what would make your predictions different from other people's. Each might focus on a different aspect.

What is value of communicating with myself? Where does the "Divine" part come in then. I'm not interested in "my" predictions, I'm interested in true prediction, divine predictions.


Do you feel connected through i-ching?

The personality with whom I communicate through the I-Ching is like my best friend and guide. I feel fully protected under His Guidance. I feel like my life has a higher purpose and meaning. Everyday He gives me Guidance on various aspects of my life. I'm at a level of communication where I don't have to ask questions, He tells me what I need to hear.

[IsleWalker]

If this is true then why don't you prove your theory at a casino.
I know that if I hold a pendulum on pie chart, I can think of digit and the pendulum will start to point to it, without any physical movement on my part.
Those who mistrust pendulum do so because subtle movement of your arm will start the swing, will definitely affect the movement. But mistrust of any tool is because we mistrust our own information, or we mistrust that our own desires are changing the information as it comes through --rather than accepting what it is.

What is value of communicating with myself? Where does the "Divine" part come in then. I'm not interested in "my" predictions, I'm interested in true prediction, divine predictions.
Whether you accept it or not, you are Divine. You have connection to Divinity through many possible "helpers" but you have a direct link yourself. Guides are here to help us realize that. We have an emotional connection to them so we trust the information that comes from "them". But it is really also information coming from us.

Your subconscious/unconscious is aware of a lot of information that can guide you in the right direction for you. This information can come through "guides". I'm not saying your guide doesn't speak to you, I'm saying your "unconscious" is part of the field of information available to all your guides and helpers as well as to you.

No matter how you get information, it comes through YOU. Your connection to Source is where the information comes from. You are just connecting to more and more of yourself through them.

Right now you seem to be searching for a tool that you trust, that you feel you are not unduly influencing. But all tools are influenced by you. I was just questioning why you use a tool designed for complex answers, scenarios of life situations-- when what you want is Yes/No.

IsleWalker - Lora

[Quintessence]

What if you concoct your own system? I initially tried Divine by converting the binary results of throwing coins into letters but I didn't get anything intelligible out of it.

It's interesting you should ask that, because this is something I've done myself and it's among my favorite methods to use. :D I think when you develop your own divinatory system, it is important to make the principles behind it something that you already have an intimate understanding of. It also helps to have a strong knowledge of various systems of divination and their mechanics, so to speak. The system that you describe sounds workable depending on how you approach the methods. For example, instead of trying to obtain intelligible words, you could work with the symbolism of letters themselves. Lots of ways to refine it into something that works well, but it takes a bit of finesse to get it there.

What if you use a system that is concocted by others? I tried to use something called the Oracle of Rama and I didn't think it worked very well.

If it were me, I'd start by examining the gut mechanics of the system and seeing if the problem is in the system itself or in my failure to use it properly. Not all divinatory methods are created equal, and some will work better for some questions than for others; experience and knowledge in the field can be an excellent guide.

What's the Oracle of Rama, out of curiosity? Is it a form of cartomancy or something else?

What if your own judgement of a means of Divination is clouded by your own conditioning?

I don't think there's any way around that. You can't really get outside of yourself, ya know? Well, there are a couple ways around it: 1) Don't do divination yourself; have someone else do it for you, and 2) Don't pick the method yourself; have a teacher or someone else hand it to you. I'd say that if someone was truly concerned about one's judgement being clouded to do one of these two things.

[I-Ching]

Those who mistrust pendulum do so because subtle movement of your arm will start the swing, will definitely affect the movement. But mistrust of any tool is because we mistrust our own information, or we mistrust that our own desires are changing the information as it comes through --rather than accepting what it is.

I'm not really clear about what you are trying to say. I still use the pendulum for certain types of Divination but i always check the results with the I-Ching.


Whether you accept it or not, you are Divine.

I accept that I am Divine, I don't accept that my consciousness or sub/unconsciousness is Divine. To me my subconscious is nothing but a collection of irrational fears and desires gathered from the impression of many lifetimes. I'm interested in become super-conscious not subconscious.


Your subconscious/unconscious is aware of a lot of information that can guide you in the right direction for you.

I think what you are referring to here is intuition which to me means God in the heart / the Supersoul / the Paramatma / the Holy Spirit. I see Guides as representatives of that Supersoul.


Right now you seem to be searching for a tool that you trust, that you feel you are not unduly influencing.

I'm not searching. The I-Ching is my primary tool. I've simply fine tuned my method of using it so that it is not influenced my negative entities.


But all tools are influenced by you.

The tool is indirectly influenced by my intuition. But I see my intuition as God in heart not me as in my conditioned mind, whether conscious or subconscious.


I was just questioning why you use a tool designed for complex answers, scenarios of life situations-- when what you want is Yes/No.

I don't limit the I-Ching to yes/no first of all my system gives an answer from 0-8 not 0 or 1. I use the complex answers and I use the simple answers, it depends on the question. A simple question needs a simple answer and a more general question needs a more general answer. Why do you limit the I-Ching to only giving complex answers? This simply makes it impotent. If the answers are always vague and nebulous then you are open to interpret them in anyway you wish, which means the I-Ching can't really Guide you.

[I-Ching]

It's interesting you should ask that, because this is something I've done myself and it's among my favorite methods to use. :D I think when you develop your own divinatory system, it is important to make the principles behind it something that you already have an intimate understanding of. It also helps to have a strong knowledge of various systems of divination and their mechanics, so to speak. The system that you describe sounds workable depending on how you approach the methods. For example, instead of trying to obtain intelligible words, you could work with the symbolism of letters themselves. Lots of ways to refine it into something that works well, but it takes a bit of finesse to get it there.

A system of Divination must itself be of Divine origin or else what is it's value. How can you really trust the answers from a system that is concocted by an imperfect human being, such a human being will no doubt concoct an imperfect system. I consider the I-Ching to be of Divine origin. At least from a mundane perspective it's at least 3000 years old.

[IsleWalker]

I-Ching--

Your subconscious also contains memories of past lives you are not ready to accept, meanings of dreams you've had, information about your own "divinity" you are not ready to accept.

More than just bad memories, our subconscious contains lots of information we are not yet ready to process.

I didn't mean intuition. That is different IMO.

The point I was making about pendulum or i-ching or any method is that you will affect it somehow--with how you throw the dice, subtle arm movements will affect the movement of the pendulum even when you think you've absolutely controlled it.

I was saying this is not a bad thing, that we allow information through in that way--and sometimes when we don't even realize it (subconsciously).

Obviously, you don't have to agree.:smile:

IsleWalker - Lora

[Quintessence]

A system of Divination must itself be of Divine origin or else what is it's value. How can you really trust the answers from a system that is concocted by an imperfect human being, such a human being will no doubt concoct an imperfect system. I consider the I-Ching to be of Divine origin. At least from a mundane perspective it's at least 3000 years old.

I think you and I come from two very different religious/spiritual/theological backgrounds. My theology is predominantly pantheistic and animistic; everything is deity. The dilemma here therefore doesn't apply well in my belief system. Even if I did not see everything as divine, I wouldn't require a divinatory system to be divinely-inspired. I have respect for the power and aptitudes of humans (limited though they may be) to think or guide themselves. To me, whether the results of my divinations are divinely inspired or inspired by my own experience and intuition is irrelevant. Are the results useful? Do they help me? If yes, that's all that matters to me. :D

[IsleWalker]

To me, whether the results of my divinations are divinely inspired or inspired by my own experience and intuition is irrelevant. Are the results useful? Do they help me? If yes, that's all that matters to me. :D

I agree, Quint. Of course, I only use divination for my own information, to inform my own life. I-Ching is interested in predictions for larger audiences. Maybe that changes it for him.

Still, for me, unless I found my own divination useful to me, I couldn't trust that it would be useful for others.

Yes, though flawed, we are all divine.

IsleWalker - Lora

[Occultist]

If you are still conditioned by lust, greed, pride, etc; how can you be the best tool?
what you pu out by any tool if thats whats in your heart thats what youll get back. You are the best tool just go cleanse yourself.

[I-Ching]

Your subconscious also contains memories of past lives you are not ready to accept, meanings of dreams you've had, information about your own "divinity" you are not ready to accept.

More than just bad memories, our subconscious contains lots of information we are not yet ready to process.

I didn't mean intuition. That is different IMO.

"Forget the past that sleeps and ne'er. The future dream at all. But act in times that are with thee. And progress thee shall call." This is a quote from an Indian saint Bhaktivinoda Thukur. Similar sentiments have been echoed by many spiritual authorities. The only "authorities" that place any value on the subconscious are materialist psychologists who's speculations about spirituality are of little value to me.



The point I was making about pendulum or i-ching or any method is that you will affect it somehow--with how you throw the dice,

As I've already said if you can influence how a dice lands then why don't you go to a casino and demonstrate your theory. If you can't demonstrate your theory then what is it's value.


subtle arm movements will affect the movement of the pendulum even when you think you've absolutely controlled it.

I don't when you would want to absolutely control a pendulum, it should be controlled by whatever subtle entity you are communicating with. The problem is that it can be consciously or subconsciously controlled by you.


Obviously, you don't have to agree.:smile:

Yes we will have to agree to disagree

[I-Ching]

what you pu out by any tool if thats whats in your heart thats what youll get back. You are the best tool just go cleanse yourself.
I disagree. Divination implies the origin of the information I Divine must be of a higher origin than myself, otherwise it has no point.

I am trying to cleanse myself by the a process that I have received from higher authority. But in order to practice that process I require Guidance and therefore I use Divination.

So what you are proposing is a chicken and egg. I need to cleanse myself to use the tool or become a tool and I need the tool to cleanse myself.

[I-Ching]

Even if I did not see everything as divine, I wouldn't require a divinatory system to be divinely-inspired.

Then what would you use to be divinely-inspired? How do you know what is inspiring you is actually according to Divine Will? Like many people are "divinely-inspired" to kill others and themselves in the process, is this actually Divine though.



I have respect for the power and aptitudes of humans (limited though they may be) to think or guide themselves.

All human beings are subject to 4 defects:
They make mistakes
They are in illusion
They cheat
Their sense are imperfect and limited

Therefore they do require Guidance, especially if you are endeavoring for Self-realization; in every field of knowledge we require a Teacher.


To me, whether the results of my divinations are divinely inspired or inspired by my own experience and intuition is irrelevant. Are the results useful? Do they help me? If yes, that's all that matters to me. :D

How can you have faith in the results of your Divination if you don't know what is their origin. You may have wasted your whole life before you realize that you have been misguided.

[I-Ching]

I-Ching is interested in predictions for larger audiences. Maybe that changes it for him.


I primarily use Divination for spiritual advancement. Prediction is just a sideline.

[Quintessence]

Then what would you use to be divinely-inspired? How do you know what is inspiring you is actually according to Divine Will? Like many people are "divinely-inspired" to kill others and themselves in the process, is this actually Divine though.

You can use anything to be "divinely inspired" though there are certain ritual techniques that help induce an altered state of mind to heighten these experiences. From a pantheist mindset, the universe is divine, so all things are "divinely inspired" regardless of whether or not we personally like them or condone them. "Divinely inspired" =/= the correct path for me/you/others.


All human beings are subject to 4 defects:
They make mistakes
They are in illusion
They cheat
Their sense are imperfect and limited

Therefore they do require Guidance, especially if you are endeavoring for Self-realization; in every field of knowledge we require a Teacher.

Heh, I think that's probably a short list. We could make lists of human flaws all day. We could also make a list of human merits and wonders all day as well, so I would stop short of saying that we "require" guidance. It can be a good idea, doubtless, but I wouldn't sell us short. Regardless, each to their own. If you don't trust human-mediated guidance, I don't blame ya. Personally, I'll continue to rely on human beings for things in life. :D

How can you have faith in the results of your Divination if you don't know what is their origin. You may have wasted your whole life before you realize that you have been misguided.

It's less about faith than it is about results to me. Useful results don't require faith; they're useful regardless. I don't blindly follow the results of a divination; it doesn't make my decision for me, ever. I use divination as a way of considering different angles of a situation. It's a think-tool, to put it another way.

As for being misguided, hitting some blocks in life is pretty much unavoidable regardless of how you life your life. Mistakes happen. How you deal and learn with them is what's important to me.

[I-Ching]

You can use anything to be "divinely inspired" though there are certain ritual techniques that help induce an altered state of mind to heighten these experiences. From a pantheist mindset, the universe is divine, so all things are "divinely inspired" regardless of whether or not we personally like them or condone them. "Divinely inspired" =/= the correct path for me/you/others.

It's not question of what we like it's question of what God likes. So that mean the holocaust was Divine inspired?


Heh, I think that's probably a short list. We could make lists of human flaws all day. We could also make a list of human merits and wonders all day as well, so I would stop short of saying that we "require" guidance. It can be a good idea, doubtless, but I wouldn't sell us short. Regardless, each to their own. If you don't trust human-mediated guidance, I don't blame ya. Personally, I'll continue to rely on human beings for things in life. :D

My point is that because of these defects humans can not be a source of perfect knowledge. For prefect knowledge we have to go to a Divine source.


It's less about faith than it is about results to me. Useful results don't require faith; they're useful regardless. I don't blindly follow the results of a divination; it doesn't make my decision for me, ever. I use divination as a way of considering different angles of a situation. It's a think-tool, to put it another way.

What kind of results have you had with what kind of Divination?

[Quintessence]

It's not question of what we like it's question of what God likes. So that mean the holocaust was Divine inspired?

"What God likes" doesn't compute well in my theology. Everything is deity. Various aspects of the divine (which includes humans) will have different likes, needs, and purposes. Everything is deity = everything is in some fashion divinely inspired. No exceptions. So yes, this includes the Holocaust. Divine inspiration isn't all fluffy bunnies, sparkles and light.

My point is that because of these defects humans can not be a source of perfect knowledge. For prefect knowledge we have to go to a Divine source.

I don't believe in perfect knowledge. Or rather, I find its existence (or not) irrelevant because that state of "perfectness" (in the sense you probably mean) could never be understood by humans anyway given our limitations as a species. In other words, if "perfect" knowledge comes to us, it'll be "corrupted" by our own limitations anyway, making the hypothetical existence of perfect knowledge a moot point.

What kind of results have you had with what kind of Divination?

Usually it works well. I get something out of the majority of my divination sessions. When I have problems, it is typically because I failed to get myself in the right "head space" to be seeing clearly. Trying to do divination when you're really frustrated, for example, doesn't work particularly well. You have to ground that out and be in a more neutral head space to get good results (or at least this has been my experience). There have been a few times that I just haven't been able to understand what the Spirit of the Cards are telling me. In those cases, I let the cards sit out and think about it throughout the day. Eventually, something else comes up and I get an "oh, that's what that was trying to say!" :D

[I-Ching]

"What God likes" doesn't compute well in my theology. Everything is deity. Various aspects of the divine (which includes humans) will have different likes, needs, and purposes. Everything is deity = everything is in some fashion divinely inspired. No exceptions. So yes, this includes the Holocaust. Divine inspiration isn't all fluffy bunnies, sparkles and light.
For there to be Divine Inspiration there must be a Divine Inspiror. Deity is everything but that doesn't mean you can limit Deity to being only everything. I am sure there are aspects of Deity that you are not aware of. Why do limit Deity to not being a sentient being? If you are sentient surely Deity is also sentient.


I don't believe in perfect knowledge. Or rather, I find its existence (or not) irrelevant because that state of "perfectness" (in the sense you probably mean) could never be understood by humans anyway given our limitations as a species. In other words, if "perfect" knowledge comes to us, it'll be "corrupted" by our own limitations anyway, making the hypothetical existence of perfect knowledge a moot point.

A Divine Being can know perfectly and can impart that knowledge to us and even though we may corrupt that knowledge, that being can always give to us again.



Usually it works well. I get something out of the majority of my divination sessions. When I have problems, it is typically because I failed to get myself in the right "head space" to be seeing clearly. Trying to do divination when you're really frustrated, for example, doesn't work particularly well. You have to ground that out and be in a more neutral head space to get good results (or at least this has been my experience). There have been a few times that I just haven't been able to understand what the Spirit of the Cards are telling me. In those cases, I let the cards sit out and think about it throughout the day. Eventually, something else comes up and I get an "oh, that's what that was trying to say!" :D
What do you consider to be a good result? If you get clear messages from the cards is that a good result?

[Quintessence]

For there to be Divine Inspiration there must be a Divine Inspiror. Deity is everything but that doesn't mean you can limit Deity to being only everything. I am sure there are aspects of Deity that you are not aware of. Why do limit Deity to not being a sentient being? If you are sentient surely Deity is also sentient.

*slightly confused blink*

Divine Inspiror?
When did sentience come into this discussion? Where did I imply I thought deity wasn't "sentient" in some meaning of the term?
How is seeing deity in everything limiting? I mean... everything is everything. :confused:

What do you consider to be a good result? If you get clear messages from the cards is that a good result?

It's a good result if it's useful. What "useful" means depends somewhat on the context. Generally speaking, though, useful means I got information from the reading that is meaningful to me. This usually requires the messages be clear, but on occasion, lack of clarity can be a teacher too.

[Verunia]

I believe all divination techniques lead to the same thing, and are 'powered' by the same thing. Our own selves and our will to manifest our desires or our answers. I flip coins all the time to gain insight or advice on what I should do. Though I do favor Tarot over most, because of the art work and the diversity of the cards- it makes for deep and interesting messages.

I personally think the I-Ching is the best tool, because a pendulum can be influenced by your subconscious, whereas coins can't.
You can say that with utmost certainty? I believe the way our muscles move to flip the coin often determines the outcome. I couldn't mind though. The subconscious is a place where great strides in life can be made. I think an unimaginable amount of things are residing in the unconscious, that paint our daily lives. But that's just me.

[I-Ching]

Divine Inspiror?
When did sentience come into this discussion? Where did I imply I thought deity wasn't "sentient" in some meaning of the term?
How is seeing deity in everything limiting? I mean... everything is everything. :confused:

In your previous post you implied that God/Diety didn't have a Will.

"What God likes" doesn't compute well in my theology. Everything is deity.

If human society followed Deities Will then It wouldn't be forced to punish us with suffering like wars, famines. etc.


It's a good result if it's useful. What "useful" means depends somewhat on the context. Generally speaking, though, useful means I got information from the reading that is meaningful to me. This usually requires the messages be clear, but on occasion, lack of clarity can be a teacher too.
This still doesn't imply to me that the source of your messages is actually benevolent.

[Quintessence]

My needs are not your needs, my theology isn't your theology. I could keep going with this conversation, but... at this point I'm going to step out. How I see the divine is radically different than the angle you're coming from, so many of your replies aren't tracking well for me.

In general, I honestly don't care what the motives are for the "source" of my divinations (if there even are such motives and such a source). I measure it based on utility, not intent. Wisdom and insight can be gleaned from something regardless of its source/intent.

[I-Ching]

I believe all divination techniques lead to the same thing, and are 'powered' by the same thing. Our own selves and our will to manifest our desires or our answers. I flip coins all the time to gain insight or advice on what I should do. Though I do favor Tarot over most, because of the art work and the diversity of the cards- it makes for deep and interesting messages.

For Divination system to work it must be of Divine origin. I don't think concocted systems such as throwing coins work. I tried concocting my system by converting the binary results of flipping coins into letters and I didn't get any intelligible results in return, unless there is a spirit that speaks gibberish. I feel tarot leaves at lot to your own imagination. Since the cards are just images that can be interpreted in many ways.


You can say that with utmost certainty? I believe the way our muscles move to flip the coin often determines the outcome. I couldn't mind though. The subconscious is a place where great strides in life can be made. I think an unimaginable amount of things are residing in the unconscious, that paint our daily lives. But that's just me.
If your theory is that you can control the flip of a coin then why don't you go to a casino and control the roll of dice. If you cannot demonstrate your theory then it has no value.

[I-Ching]

My needs are not your needs, my theology isn't your theology. I could keep going with this conversation, but... at this point I'm going to step out. How I see the divine is radically different than the angle you're coming from, so many of your replies aren't tracking well for me.

I'm not interested in my theology or your theology. I'm interested in establishing the Truth on a rational basis. Beyond our man made labels is the Reality and it doesn't care what label we give it. The laws of that Reality will act whether we believe in them or not. That why it in our best interest as intelligent human beings to establish what is actually the Truth. Attachment to some concocted labels will not help us to advance on the Path. If beliefs do not stand up to rational inquiry then they are unlikely to be true. Perhaps you make assumptions about my theology.


In general, I honestly don't care what the motives are for the "source" of my divinations (if there even are such motives and such a source). I measure it based on utility, not intent. Wisdom and insight can be gleaned from something regardless of its source/intent.
If your are unconcerned with the intent of your "guide" then it implies that your own intent is doubtful. i.e. when we want to be cheated then Diety sends us a cheater. The "wisdom" of a "guide" with bad intent is unlikely to result in spiritual advancement. Assuming you want that.

[Quintessence]

Oh, I'm all for doing some think-work on these things, but one person's truth is not another's. We've the freedom to come up with our own answers to life's questions and it's great fun to do engage in that exploration. It has seemed to me that you believe there is some "Absolute Truth" out there and that humans are capable of knowing it. I don't agree with that; not as a scientist, and even less so when discussing things beyond the scope of science. That also means I believe it is unwise to make matter-of-fact statements about spiritual topics or imply there's a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things in some absolute sense. It seems like you're doing that, which doesn't track well in my worldview. What works for me works for me, what works for you works for you. It's not a matter of some Absolute Truth to me, it's a matter of perspective (and therefore of theology/worldview/etc).

Regardless, I do appreciate this discussion, so don't get the impression that it's annoyed me or something. It's always interesting to me to understand something of what others believe and such. :D

[I-Ching]

Oh, I'm all for doing some think-work on these things, but one person's truth is not another's. We've the freedom to come up with our own answers to life's questions and it's great fun to do engage in that exploration. It has seemed to me that you believe there is some "Absolute Truth" out there and that humans are capable of knowing it. I don't agree with that; not as a scientist, and even less so when discussing things beyond the scope of science.

As a scientist you should be interested in finding the objective Truth not just floating around in subjective opinions. The fact that there is an Absolute Truth is obvious, Reality is governed by absolute laws and they act regardless of our belief in them. As a scientist you should understand this. One absolute truth you can't deny is time which destroying everything including our bodies.

Diety knows this Truth and is fully capable of communicating that Truth to us.


That also means I believe it is unwise to make matter-of-fact statements about spiritual topics or imply there's a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things in some absolute sense. It seems like you're doing that, which doesn't track well in my worldview. What works for me works for me, what works for you works for you. It's not a matter of some Absolute Truth to me, it's a matter of perspective (and therefore of theology/worldview/etc).

I think that spirituality is a science and if we want to actually achieve enlightenment then we should follow the method given by our Guides rather then speculating our path. That doesn't mean that everyone should follow the same Path since each person is a unique individual and therefore require unique medicine. Such speculation is simply wasting our time in terms making Advancement.

[LadyTerra]

"Only the Siths deal in absolutes!" :wink:

The World is made-up of Shadow and Light--as are we all--it would serve us well to remember that the (Grey Area) consists of varying degrees of both.

"I accept my Karma to be in this time and place.

I have the strength and courage to endure what I must face.

People have the right to choose and make their own mistakes.

I have the peace and wisdom to respect their lives and space."

One person's truth--may not be the same as another's. If we want our freedom of choice to be respected--we must respect each person's right to do their own research and form their own opinions--then trust that all will be revealed in its own time.

Peace and Love on the path of your choice...

Blessed be...

[I-Ching]

The World is made-up of Shadow and Light--as are we all--it would serve us well to remember that the (Grey Area) consists of varying degrees of both.

Come out of the Shadows and go towards the Light! There is no grey in the Light. The Light is our true Home. We are eternal Absolute Beings and and eternal Absolute Love is our True nature.



"I accept my Karma to be in this time and place.

I have the strength and courage to endure what I must face.

People have the right to choose and make their own mistakes.

I have the peace and wisdom to respect their lives and space."

Your quoted personality is simply selfishly concerned with "My karma" and "what I must face". A compassionate person is concerned for the happiness and karma of others. If a whole lot of sheep are happily running over a cliff and you are peacefully letting them, is that wisdom? I think not.



One person's truth--may not be the same as another's. If we want our freedom of choice to be respected--we must respect each person's right to do their own research and form their own opinions--then trust that all will be revealed in its own time.

By the time that all is revealed it will be too late. I'm not interested in forcing anything on anyone. I'm simply interested in discussing the Truth with those who want to understand the Truth better. In this human form of life we should be interested in inquiring the Absolute Truth and not be so attached to my ideas and my truth. If you are an imperfect limited human being what is value of your ideas?

[LadyTerra]

Come out of the Shadows and go towards the Light! There is no grey in the Light. The Light is our true Home. We are eternal Absolute Beings and and eternal Absolute Love is our True nature.



Your quoted personality is simply selfishly concerned with "My karma" and "what I must face". A compassionate person is concerned for the happiness and karma of others. If a whole lot of sheep are happily running over a cliff and you are peacefully letting them, is that wisdom? I think not.



By the time that all is revealed it will be too late. I'm not interested in forcing anything on anyone. I'm simply interested in discussing the Truth with those who want to understand the Truth better. In this human form of life we should be interested in inquiring the Absolute Truth and not be so attached to my ideas and my truth. If you are an imperfect limited human being what is value of your ideas?


What you are suggesting is control...Light will always cast a Shadow.

A faithful person will comprehend that all paths lead (eventually) to the Source of All and we must take that journey in order to learn what we need to learn and earn the right to rejoin the One.

"I am Moon. I am Stars. I am Clouds. I am Sun.
I am Mystic--I am Spiritualist-- and my life has just begun.

I am Air. I am Fire. I am Water. I am Earth.
I am Christian--I am Muslim--I am Buddhist--I am Rebirth.

By embracing all Creation--I heal MotherEarth.
I am all there is and none--for one day we'll know our Joy and Worth
And then rejoin the One..."

I am only interested in offering my perspective. I have followed this Thread with interest. There have been many times in my life when I was just as certain as you feel you are--until I found out I was wrong.

Humility is the first step of the journey towards maturity.

Peace and Love on the path of your choice...

Blessed be...

[I-Ching]

What you are suggesting is control...Light will always cast a Shadow.

The Supreme Person is the light and when we look towards Him then there is no shadow and when we look away from him then we look towards the shadow of maya (illusion)


A faithful person will comprehend that all paths lead (eventually) to the Source of All and we must take that journey in order to learn what we need to learn and earn the right to rejoin the One.

What if my path is to eat stupid people who have the intelligence of animals. Will that lead to the source?

"I am Moon. I am Stars. I am Clouds. I am Sun.
I am Mystic--I am Spiritualist-- and my life has just begun.

I am Air. I am Fire. I am Water. I am Earth.
I am Christian--I am Muslim--I am Buddhist--I am Rebirth.

By embracing all Creation--I heal MotherEarth.
I am all there is and none--for one day we'll know our Joy and Worth
And then rejoin the One..."

Sounds like your quoted personality has an inflated sense of ego. I am a servant of the servant of the servant of the Supreme Person. This is Love. Until we understand the difference between ourselves and God, until we become humble there can be no Devotion.


I am only interested in offering my perspective. I have followed this Thread with interest. There have been many times in my life when I was just as certain as you feel you are--until I found out I was wrong.

It is very difficult to make Advancement without certainty in the eternal Reality. Just because you found one false coin does not imply all coins are false. The false coins implies there must be a real coin.


Humility is the first step of the journey towards maturity.

Yes we must humble ourselves before the Supreme Person and follow His Will for our lives, then we will attain Perfection, Happiness and the Supreme Destination. As long as we remain attached to my ideas, we will attain neither of these things.

[LadyTerra]

The Supreme Person is the light and when we look towards Him then there is no shadow and when we look away from him then we look towards the shadow of maya (illusion)


What if my path is to eat stupid people who have the intelligence of animals. Will that lead to the source?


Sounds like your quoted personality has an inflated sense of ego. I am a servant of the servant of the servant of the Supreme Person. This is Love. Until we understand the difference between ourselves and God, until we become humble there can be no Devotion.


It is very difficult to make Advancement without certainty in the eternal Reality. Just because you found one false coin does not imply all coins are false. The false coins implies there must be a real coin.


Yes we must humble ourselves before the Supreme Person and follow His Will for our lives, then we will attain Perfection, Happiness and the Supreme Destination. As long as we remain attached to my ideas, we will attain neither of these things.



Peace and Love on the path of your choice...

Blessed be...:hug2: