Origin of the Universe

[Greybeard]

13,700,000,000 years ago there was absolutely Nothing. Then Nothing blew up, and created Space and Time, Matter and Light.

The original infinitely tiny point of pure amorphous unstructured Energy burst and created Everything. There were no primeval forces and no laws governing them. But in an instant gravity came into being, and the destiny of the Universe was decided. Interestingly, if the force of gravity is too low, everything flies apart too fast and galaxies can't form; if gravity is too strong, everything ends up in black holes. The Big Bang got gravity just right and here we are looking at our universe.

Energy alone led to the creation of matter in the first fraction of a second following the initial explosion. First Nothing, out of Nothing energy, out of energy matter. And anti-matter... Matter and anti-matter, when they meet, destroy each other and revert to energy. But for some reason, in the early universe there were one billion and one particles of matter for every billion particles of anti-matter. The one survived, while the billion perished. All of the matter in our present universe is composed of these lone survivors. This gargantuan battle between matter and anti-matter was fought and won in the first second after the initial explosion.

By the time 3 minutes had passed, the nuclei of atoms of hydrogen, helium and lithium had formed. The levels of energy and heat were still too great, however, for electrons to bond to the nuclei. Therefore, light could not move across the universe, and it had the appearance of a glowing milky cloud. After 380,000 years the universe had cooled sufficiently for electrons to bond with nuclei and atoms were formed. The universe became transparent. Satellite observatories have obtained "heat-maps" of the universe at this stage in its development. Now, vast clouds of hydrogen and helium swirl through space.

Two hundred million years later, the first stars began to form out of these clouds. One billion years after the Big Bang, the first galaxies began to take form. Nine billion years later, our own Sun and its system of planets coalesces out of a spinning cloud of gas and dust; the Earth is formed.

Things which have a beginning must also have an end. No one knows how the universe will end; whether in a great contraction and a repeat of the Big Bang, or just a slow dissipation and dying out. Although the future is not yet known, the brief history presented here is now established fact. It is the story of how we came to be.

[psychoslice]

I don't know if that is the way it actually happened, but it certainly makes more sense than the bible story of creation lol.:smile: :angel8:

[Riboflavin]

How much sense does it make for something to come from nothing? I think its more likely that a different universe blew up and that made this one. Then you may ask, where did that one come from? Probably another universe too. I dont think there ever was "nothing" or that such a thing could possibly exist.

I think its more like "In the beginning there was everything, and then the illusion of nothing came to pass, and there was absence" lol

[psychoslice]

How much sense does it make for something to come from nothing? I think its more likely that a different universe blew up and that made this one. Then you may ask, where did that one come from? Probably another universe too. I dont think there ever was "nothing" or that such a thing could possibly exist.

I think its more like "In the beginning there was everything, and then the illusion of nothing came to pass, and there was absence" lol
I'm no scientist but intuitively I feel the same way.

[Greybeard]

0=+1-1......the equation is mathematically correct, valid. Something can and does come from nothing. The universe is composed of Yin and Yang....the positive and the negative, masculine and feminine, matter and anti-matter.....Duality proceeds out of nothingness and produces the manifest universe.

You are here in a spiritual forum, I assume because things of a spiritual nature interest you. Please put your finger on Spirit. You cannot for one simple reason: it is Nothingness. As a matter of fact, don't the Buddhists say that our journey is toward "Nothingness," that nothingness is our destination?

[Greybeard]

If you have a theoretical physicist living next door to you, ask him. If not, you might enjoy reading Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe."

[psychoslice]

0=+1-1......the equation is mathematically correct, valid. Something can and does come from nothing. The universe is composed of Yin and Yang....the positive and the negative, masculine and feminine, matter and anti-matter.....
The Cosmos doesn't know anything about or theories of what should be and what shouldn't be, Yin an Yang, are just pointers, meaning nothing in them self, it will always be a mystery, a beautiful mystery.:smile:

[Gem]

How much sense does it make for something to come from nothing? I think its more likely that a different universe blew up and that made this one. Then you may ask, where did that one come from? Probably another universe too. I dont think there ever was "nothing" or that such a thing could possibly exist.

I think its more like "In the beginning there was everything, and then the illusion of nothing came to pass, and there was absence" lol

Funny the beginning is edge and not the centre ay?

[Greybeard]

There is a thing called "the point of origin," and then there is a thing called "the cutting edge." They are not the same, In astrology the point of origin is the Sun, while the cutting edge is Mars. These are two symbols that describe the difference between them.

[Greybeard]

To expand on this, we might say that one is essential while the other is ephemeral.

[Greybeard]

In mathematics, the single point where the X and Y axes intersect is known as the "origin." It is zero/zero, or Nothing.

All other points in a graph must be defined by two values, X and Y...and to develop a "leading edge" or "forward point" we require construction of a vector, which requires an infinite number of points.

[mattie]

This may be fact as we know it now, but this fact can change & does change w/ how much we understand about these issues. Our scientists are learning more & more all the time. The best ones are giving their self the flexibility to adjust their views as new information emerges. There’s allot we are just beginning to understand.

Whether this big bang theory was the beginning of ALL or just the current manifestation of these energies is an open question.

... You are here in a spiritual forum, I assume because things of a spiritual nature interest you. Please put your finger on Spirit. You cannot for one simple reason: it is Nothingness. As a matter of fact, don't the Buddhists say that our journey is toward "Nothingness," that nothingness is our destination?

I can’t put my finger on gravity either, but it is widely accepted that it exists & has various characteristics.

That our nonphysical energies are invisible to most of us doesn’t mean they are nothing. Some has said that what we call nonphysical energies are the norm in the Universe w/ physicality being what is unusual.

I suspect that when we are nonphysical energies that the D we inhabit at that point will be just as real to us as the one of physicality we inhabit now.

[Greybeard]

In navigation, if you want to know where you are going you must first know where you are. Where you are has a value of zero/zero, and where you are going has either/both positive and negative values in relation to this point of origin.

[mattie]

0=+1-1......the equation is mathematically correct, valid. Something can and does come from nothing. ...

That +1 and -1 equal 0 is just another way of looking at zero. It doesn't mean something comes from zero.
Zero could also be seen as +967 and -967, & so on ad infinitim, but this imparts no additional meaning to zero.

[Greybeard]

The brief history of the universe I set forth here is the best picture we have as of 2010. Obviously our understanding of this history will change as new knowledge comes in. However, this history as presented has been built up over the past century (a bit less actually), since Einstein published his General Theory in 1915, followed by the development of the equations by Firedmann in 1922 and the proposal for a "primeval atom" by LeMaitre in 1927 based on the same but independent development of the equations out of the General Theory. Then in 1929 Hubble proved an expanding universe and this revolutionary new cosmology has been confirmed by one set of evidence piled on top of another. The mathematics, the observations, the experiments all confirm the truth of the Big Bang as a very close-fitting description of Creation.

As for my saying that Spirit is nothing, I simply mean it is incorporeal. It most certainly has power and exists, as anyone with eyes can see.

[Greybeard]

It is not the specific numbers that are used. It is that equal amounts of positive and negative are zero, nothingness. And that is simply a statement that Something can come out of Nothing. There is the math. Don't argue with me, argue with the math.

[Greybeard]

Again, an observer sees that all things in existence are "bi-polar"....the Earth has a north and a south pole, as an example. All things are of that nature.

[Greybeard]

For goodness sakes. I simply provided a brief history of the universe as modern science understands it at this moment. And am treated like a heretic.

[psychoslice]

For goodness sakes. I simply provided a brief history of the universe as modern science understands it at this moment. And am treated like a heretic.
What you have shared with us is very interesting, and thank you for sharing, but this is a spiritual forum and naturally there are going to be people here who see it all in a different perspective, than what you do, or what the science believe to be their theories, its called debating, or discussion.

[Greybeard]

This is the "astronomy" section of this spiritual forum, and is dedicated to "a more scientific viewpoint."

And, yes....you are free to believe the Moon is made of green cheese if it pleases you.

[psychoslice]

This is the "astronomy" section of this spiritual forum, and is dedicated to "a more scientific viewpoint."

And, yes....you are free to believe the Moon is made of green cheese if it pleases you.
Have you been to the moon ?, how do you know its not made of cheese ? lo. Come on give us a smile, that's worth a lot more than any silly theory.:angel8: :hug3:

[Greybeard]

Twenty-five or thirty years ago I realized that the spiritual aspect cannot be separated from the material or physical. I realized at that time that my own separation of the two realms (which are in fact one realm) was simply an expression of escapist tendencies on my part. By planting my feet solidly on the ground, while keeping my head and heart "in the heavens" I established a firm foundation for my spiritual growth.

[Greybeard]

Gee....I think someone brought back a basket full of rocks from the Moon...I haven't heard any reports of Provolone being found there.

[mattie]

For goodness sakes. I simply provided a brief history of the universe as modern science understands it at this moment. And am treated like a heretic.

The summary was very good.

Don't see discussion about it as problematic though or even bringing up other issues or POVs as combative. It is very useful to explore these issues from all areas, both scientific & metaphysical.

[psychoslice]

Twenty-five or thirty years ago I realized that the spiritual aspect cannot be separated from the material or physical. I realized at that time that my own separation of the two realms (which are in fact one realm) was simply an expression of escapist tendencies on my part. By planting my feet solidly on the ground, while keeping my head and heart "in the heavens" I established a firm foundation for my spiritual growth.
Now i like that, so true, some do go too fare to either side and miss out on all that is happening, right here, right NOW.:smile:

[Greybeard]

I wonder what it is about "science" that so many people find so obnoxious.

The word "science" comes originally from the Latin and simply means "knowledge." Science is the disciplined study of things in an attempt to "get at the truth" of them. Why is that so repugnant to some people?

I do not believe that science is the "be-all and end-all" of things, but it is a good way to learn about the physical universe we live in. Things that properly lie within the ken of "the scientific method" are best studied by using that method. It is what leads to the clearest understanding of our physical world. Clearly, there are things that are not suited to the "scientific" approach, and we should use other means to understand them. But why this aversion to anything "scientific" simply because it is called "science"?

[Greybeard]

And by the way, regarding the comparison of gravity and Spirit....

Gravity is a physical force, and it can be measured and predicted. The future effects of a planet, say Jupiter, on a passing spacecraft can be accurately foretold by means of mathematics. Sit under an apple tree, and...Bonk!...you will know the tangible reality of gravity.

No such feat is possible with Spirit. The two things are not in the same class, even though both are invisible. The two are essentially different, and such a comparison holds no validity.

[Bluegreen]

I think the gap between science and spirituality is closing, more so than ever before. I have always been interested in scientific discoveries to see whether they support spiritual beliefs.

The belief that there is life after death is a case in point. Medical doctors are now investigating NDEs, or rather the fact that consciousness needs no body. One of Pim van Lommel's (cardiologist) NDE patients told him "The body needs me but I do not need the body."

[Greybeard]

You need the body as long as you wish to be a living creature capable of testing and refining the spirit. As we can see from 0=+1-1, the Spirit unmanifest is nothing. If we look at E=mc2, we see that without space-time (both space and time are implicit in the speed of light and if c2=0, then there is no space-time and the value of the equation is zero) there is neither mass nor energy. Hmm. This means that in order for Spirit to Be, it must Create space-time....a paradox, for how can Nothing create Something? And of course within the question the answer is found. The Spirit is Creative, as we discover in Genesis, where God's First Act was..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (i.e., space-time). And we are made in God's image; we are first and foremost creative beings.

Faith without works is dead.

To divorce Spirit from Body is to flee into a world of fantasy and delusion. If we are "on this Earth" or "incarnate" it is probably for some reason, and that reason cannot be to deny the reality of the body and life as embodied Spirit.

The evidence supporting the truth of the Big Bang is overwhelming. Standard Cosmology (a fancy name for the Big Bang) posits a finite universe, one that had a beginning. It deals with THIS universe, the one you and I know and love because we live (have our being) in it. It does not deal with alternate universes directly (although it certainly does not deny the possibility of their existence [it in fact suggests that they are highly likely; but for today, we can't know anything about that and our focus in this cosmology is the universe we know] and it does not deal with what may have preceded this universe. The Planck Constant makes it impossible to go there.

So, considering only this universe we know, the Big Bang describes the "mechanism of creation." And the picture it gives us is that ALL THINGS IN EXISTENCE, PAST, PRESENT, OR FUTURE are One, because they share a common origin.

[matt1973]

I can always rely upon this subject to give me a good chuckle.

The fact that mere human beings, scientists or not, genuinely believe they can even attempt to answer the question of how the universe came into being is utterly laughable to me, not to mention breathtakingly arrogant.

We know nothing and probably never will. It is something well beyond human understanding and will remain so.

It's all guesswork and ridiculous theories based on a miniscule amount of knowledge of our own little corner of the universe. It's not even 100 years since the invention of television, less than 20 years since the internet became commonplace, barely 30 years since the introduction of the home computer and only 50 years since the first manned space flight and scientists can barely predict the weather and still have no cure for the common cold yet they think they can answer the ultimate question.

It's absurd.