WHO IS THE DOER

[Uday_Advaita]

WHO IS THE DOER?

Recently I connected with my (Chemical Engineering) College friends through a WhatsApp group. It was very refreshing to catch up with guys after a gap of more than 45 years. This e-interaction was followed by personal meetings, informal get togethers.

Most of us are in their late sixties / early seventies, with children settled in India / abroad, some retired, others doing some business. Invariably we recounted our life journeys during our “spirited” discussions.

Someone said, I did not get a job, so I started on my own….
…. I set up my manufacturing unit… closed it and later I went for my PhD…
…. I set up my consultancy…. Changed my line from Chemicals to Pharma
…. I lost my job, so I did this
…. My factory got burnt …. I faced court cases.. went bankrupt, yet I survived and built my business again…
….. I retired after a successful corporate career and now doing what I like to do…

Everyone kept saying … I did this because… I did that because…. So on..

Just to summarize, I noticed that everyone of my friends went through ups and downs, twists and turns, highs and lows, totally unexpected changes, loss of spouse / divorce, life threatening illnesses, children issues, economic hardships and what not. Everyone did what was required to be done at that moment to tide over the situation and emerge towards a better tomorrow. I am not sure if my friends had many choices….

In my case, when I look back, I find that right from my choice of education, everything I did was by default. Went to chemical Engineering because the college did not specify a minimum age limit. Changed my line from Engineering to Management because, I had to get out of a hopeless job…. So on and so forth. All the choices supposedly made by me were dictated by the situation around me which really did not offer me any choices.

Though none of us is an extremely successful or famous celebrity, we all friends are moderately well to do individuals having done reasonably well in their careers. At this stage in life, I really wonder if we made our life for where we are or we were compelled to do whatever was required at that moment… and here we are!

It is said that 2% of the people in this world pursue their hobby as their career and are extremely successful because they seem to like what they do. I would be happy to know if they really had many choices while choosing the course of their life.

In my life experience, if I were to ask – Am I the Doer? The answer would be a resounding – NO. Life just happened through this Mind Body Apparatus.

Who then is the real Doer???

Namaskar

[Shivani Devi]

Who is the real doer?
That which works through you but not as you.

[MAYA EL]

What are you now? Who is wondering about the 2%? Why is it interested?

[hazada guess]

Who is the real doer?
That which works through you but not as you.

Excellent.:biggrin:

[Unseeking Seeker]

Who is the real doer?
That which works through you but not as you.

***

👍🏼👍🏼

***

[Miss Hepburn]

What are you now? Who is wondering about the 2%?
Why is it interested?This is also clever.


Maybe that which causes him to ask this question is the Doer.

or
The one that observes, but isn't really just observing?

[Uday_Advaita]

Who is the real doer?
That which works through you but not as you.

Thanks Shivani for your insightful observation.

"That which works through you" must be a common Doer and not an individual one. Yet it produces different actions in different individuals. Like electricity produces designed output from different gadgets.

What are we - programmed gadgets - used by "That which works through you"
Namaskar

[Uday_Advaita]

What are you now? Who is wondering about the 2%? Why is it interested?
Thanks Maya EL

I may be the confused mind not willing to accept that essentially I am timeless

[inavalan]

Never thought in terms of "who's the Doer?". I'm not even sure that I understand exactly what you mean ... maybe in terms of "by choice vs. by design", and "free will" (?)

At some point in my life it became imperative to find answers to the questions: "why am I here?", "what am I supposed to do?". Now I believe I know.

I also realized that all my life I had opportunities to learn specific things, but I didn't recognize them; then those opportunities popped up again and again until seemingly I was ready to make use of them.

How did that happen? I believe an inner guide, patiently, assisted and assists me, while not forcing me, and not creating or setting up anything for me by himself.

More recently, I also realized that we all can, and should, create our lives by assertively intending them to be the way we want. It doesn't matter what we want; it matters to intend and create it.

Not knowing that, we keep reacting to whatever comes our way, which leaves us hoping, or fearing a random-like future, and not doing what we came here to do.

[Shivani Devi]

Thanks Shivani for your insightful observation.

"That which works through you" must be a common Doer and not an individual one. Yet it produces different actions in different individuals. Like electricity produces designed output from different gadgets.

What are we - programmed gadgets - used by "That which works through you"
Namaskar
The wind blows through all the trees and we see the leaves move...

We say "look, the leaves are moving" but the leaves are still stationary to the wind which moves them.

The manifestation of Kriya Shakti is always the same, even though perception makes us view it differently...the same electricity which can produce heat can also produce cold...and the Light of Wisdom is that "Light Without Heat"....It was Steve Vai who taught me that one ..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NiTXGswyAls

[iamthat]

The wind blows through all the trees and we see the leaves move...

We say "look, the leaves are moving" but the leaves are still stationary to the wind which moves them.

The manifestation of Kriya Shakti is always the same, even though perception makes us view it differently...the same electricity which can produce heat can also produce cold...and the Light of Wisdom is that "Light Without Heat"....It was Steve Vai who taught me that one ..

Which brings to mind the Zen story:

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: "The flag is moving."

The other said: "No, the wind is moving."

The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving."

Peace

[Shivani Devi]

Which brings to mind the Zen story:

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: "The flag is moving."

The other said: "No, the wind is moving."

The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving."

PeaceSo very true and accurate. Thank you for sharing :hug3:

I am a fan of Zen stories but I had not heard that one before.

Within the auspices of Brahman, there is no "doer" and nothing ever being "done".

Not only must the realization of being the "doer" be dropped, but also the awareness of being the conduit through which things get "done" according to the Universal Law of Cause vs Effect ...it is the ultimate "Duality".

Some call this "Karma" and therefore Karma Yoga ascribed the performance of actions just for the sake of their performance to "kill the ego" which has any vested interest in that action as 'whatever' manifestation of Prakriti is experienced at the time in any sort of a dual juxtaposition to Purusha.

[iamthat]

So very true and accurate. Thank you for sharing :hug3:

I am a fan of Zen stories but I had not heard that one before.

Within the auspices of Brahman, there is no "doer" and nothing ever being "done".

Not only must the realization of being the "doer" be dropped, but also the awareness of being the conduit through which things get "done" according to the Universal Law of Cause vs Effect ...it is the ultimate "Duality".

Some call this "Karma" and therefore Karma Yoga ascribed the performance of actions just for the sake of their performance to "kill the ego" which has any vested interest in that action as 'whatever' manifestation of Prakriti is experienced at the time in any sort of a dual juxtaposition to Purusha.

Yes, I too enjoy these Zen stories.

Regarding the Doer, here is something from Poonjaji (I may have previously quoted this elsewhere):

In the first few months after this visit (to Ramana Maharshi), I didn't have a single thought. ... Whether I was sitting in the hall with the Maharishi, walking round the mountain or shopping in town, everything I did was performed without any mental activity at all. There was an ocean of inner silence that never gave rise to even a ripple of thought. It did not take me long to realise that a mind and thoughts are not necessary to function in the world. When one abides as the Self, some divine power takes charge of one's life. All actions then take place spontaneously, and are performed very efficiently, without any mental effort or activity.

Peace

[Uday_Advaita]

[QUOTE=inavalan]Never thought in terms of "who's the Doer?". I'm not even sure that I understand exactly what you mean ... maybe in terms of "by choice vs. by design", and "free will" (?)

At some point in my life it became imperative to find answers to the questions: "why am I here?", "what am I supposed to do?". Now I believe I know.

I also realized that all my life I had opportunities to learn specific things, but I didn't recognize them; then those opportunities popped up again and again until seemingly I was ready to make use of them.

How did that happen? I believe an inner guide, patiently, assisted and assists me, while not forcing me, and not creating or setting up anything for me by himself.

Hello Inavalan
Thanks for putting your understanding so nicely. We are all seeking answers to questions that pop up in our unrelenting minds. “Why I am here?” What I am supposed to do?” I have also contemplated on these questions. My experience led me to understand that – There is no special purpose for this Mind Body Apparatus to be here. What I am supposed to do will and have always depended upon the situation unfolding in the present moment and my intent on securing my welfare. The action that happened was always right at that moment. However, it may have turned out to be wrong (particularly with regard to my welfare) after it happened.

Your understanding led you to believe that there is a guide which is assisting a separate you to lead your life with best of intent so as to create a life of your choice.

My experience is that, there is this Mind Body Apparatus which exactly does what the non-dual life force acting through it has programmed and conditioned it for.

For me the problem arises when in spite of the understanding, this intruding mind refuses to fully accept ….. “what is - could not be / could not have been - otherwise”

Namaskar

[Uday_Advaita]

The wind blows through all the trees and we see the leaves move...

We say "look, the leaves are moving" but the leaves are still stationary to the wind which moves them.

The manifestation of Kriya Shakti is always the same, even though perception makes us view it differently...the same electricity which can produce heat can also produce cold...and the Light of Wisdom is that "Light Without Heat"....It was Steve Vai who taught me that one ..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NiTXGswyAls

Very nice perspective. Thanks

[Shivani Devi]

Very nice perspective. Thanks
I appreciate your appreciation for the appreciation it is.

[Shivani Devi]

OMG...Massive download..channeled while I was meditating in the shower with water running on my head...my favorite place to meditate...

Ready?

All notions of Karmic do-ership arise from fluctuations of Prana within the Manipura Chakra (Solar Plexus) which is usually why we tend to rely on "gut instincts" a lot...this is meaning of kaarya:

Kārya (कार्य, “action”) refers to one of the “five elements of the plot” (arthaprakṛti), according to the Nāṭyaśāstra chapter 21. These five elements represents the five means of attaining objects of the plot (itivṛtta or vastu) through the five senses (karma-indriyas...shortened to Karmendriyas)..

*I will have you all learning Sanskrit yet...it is SO easy guys*

The associated ‘stage of action’ (avasthā) of the kārya is at the prārambha (beginning). These stages represent a Hero’s striving towards the object in dramatic playwrighting (nāṭaka).

There is a very large Nadi (energy channel) which has a close approximation to the Vagus Nerves in the physical body....in fact, you can pretty much call the Right Vagus nerve and the Left Vagus nerve, 'Pingala' and 'Ida' respectively.

At this level of the Manipura Chakra, the "do-er" is created..."doing" things for an "ego" to benefit the physical and mental body (Annamaya Kosha and Manomaya Kosha).

The first thing we become aware of is "I am eating...look at what I am doing...food was there.. now it is gone and I am responsible for that... look at me go and watch me defecate"..well, that is the energy of Manipura Chakra.

As this energy rises up to the Anahata Chakra (Heart Chakra), it is all about "doing" things for other people and not oneself...but you are still aware of "doing" just your reasons for "doing" whatever you are "doing" change and so now you have become more noble and "doing" is based on compassion and empathy.

As this energy rises up to the Vishuddhi Chakra (Throat Chakra) it is "I am not only "doing" but creating, according to my inner Truth and Guidance"...there is still a "do-er"...the one who must resort to using cultural symbology when words fail and then experiences a freedom in "doing" which is unrestrained by time and space (Chit-akaasha).

As this energy reaches the Ajna Chakra (Third Eye) one may become aware of another consciousness imparting of itself AS the "do-er", while any awareness is only a witness or observant TO it...form and function are still distinct yet inseparable, as is cause and effect... Dualistic notions become interchangeable yet still exist at the level of immutable reciprocity.

When that energy reaches Sahasrara or Crown Chakra...

"What is that which could ever get done which would require a do-er of it anyway? ...now excuse me while this body walks itself under the direction of the mind to go and procure a towel to stop water dripping from the head and all over my dumbphone".

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

@ Shivani ... thanks for sharing your insight!

Or we may say, when we can distinguish a thought arising from mind-body vs an impulse from Universal consciousness?

***

[Uday_Advaita]

Yes, I too enjoy these Zen stories.

Regarding the Doer, here is something from Poonjaji (I may have previously quoted this elsewhere):

In the first few months after this visit (to Ramana Maharshi), I didn't have a single thought. ... Whether I was sitting in the hall with the Maharishi, walking round the mountain or shopping in town, everything I did was performed without any mental activity at all. There was an ocean of inner silence that never gave rise to even a ripple of thought. It did not take me long to realise that a mind and thoughts are not necessary to function in the world. When one abides as the Self, some divine power takes charge of one's life. All actions then take place spontaneously, and are performed very efficiently, without any mental effort or activity.

Peace

There was a story about Nisargadatta Maharaj related by Ramesh Balsekar.
One day during satsang a visitor asked Maharaj:

"If a man comes here with a gun and starts shooting, what will you do?"
Maharaj replied - "I don't know"
Everyone laughed at the convenient reply.
Maharaj looked at Ramesh and asked him - "Why you did not laugh"
Ramesh said - "I can't imagine, you would utter a lie"
Maharaj smiled. There was a silence in the room
The visitor asked Ramesh - "What do you mean?"
Ramesh looked at Maharaj who smiled and gave permission to explain.
Ramesh said - "When Maharaj said -I don't know - He meant that he really does not know how the Mind Body apparatus will react in such a situation. The source will take over and whatever is required in the moment will happen."
Namaskar

[Shivani Devi]

***

@ Shivani ... thanks for sharing your insight!

Or we may say, when we can distinguish a thought arising from mind-body vs an impulse from Universal consciousness?

***
Not even!

I like the Poonjaji quote given by "iamthat" it sums this up nicely.

[Iamit]

WHO IS THE DOER?

Recently I connected with my (Chemical Engineering) College friends through a WhatsApp group. It was very refreshing to catch up with guys after a gap of more than 45 years. This e-interaction was followed by personal meetings, informal get togethers.

Most of us are in their late sixties / early seventies, with children settled in India / abroad, some retired, others doing some business. Invariably we recounted our life journeys during our “spirited” discussions.

Someone said, I did not get a job, so I started on my own….
…. I set up my manufacturing unit… closed it and later I went for my PhD…
…. I set up my consultancy…. Changed my line from Chemicals to Pharma
…. I lost my job, so I did this
…. My factory got burnt …. I faced court cases.. went bankrupt, yet I survived and built my business again…
….. I retired after a successful corporate career and now doing what I like to do…

Everyone kept saying … I did this because… I did that because…. So on..

Just to summarize, I noticed that everyone of my friends went through ups and downs, twists and turns, highs and lows, totally unexpected changes, loss of spouse / divorce, life threatening illnesses, children issues, economic hardships and what not. Everyone did what was required to be done at that moment to tide over the situation and emerge towards a better tomorrow. I am not sure if my friends had many choices….

In my case, when I look back, I find that right from my choice of education, everything I did was by default. Went to chemical Engineering because the college did not specify a minimum age limit. Changed my line from Engineering to Management because, I had to get out of a hopeless job…. So on and so forth. All the choices supposedly made by me were dictated by the situation around me which really did not offer me any choices.

Though none of us is an extremely successful or famous celebrity, we all friends are moderately well to do individuals having done reasonably well in their careers. At this stage in life, I really wonder if we made our life for where we are or we were compelled to do whatever was required at that moment… and here we are!

It is said that 2% of the people in this world pursue their hobby as their career and are extremely successful because they seem to like what they do. I would be happy to know if they really had many choices while choosing the course of their life.

In my life experience, if I were to ask – Am I the Doer? The answer would be a resounding – NO. Life just happened through this Mind Body Apparatus.

Who then is the real Doer???

Namaskar

An interesting question but not relevant to total connection with Oneness for if one is the doer or not, both are Oneness manifest, each the other and the One Love in Action, dreaming difference where there is none.

[Moondance]

An interesting question but not relevant to total connection with Oneness for if one is the doer or not, both are Oneness manifest, each the other and the One Love in Action, dreaming difference where there is none.

Nice to see you back here, Iamit. Sorry to hear about your misfortune - but good to see that it hasn’t affected your capacity for consistency. :)

[Miss Hepburn]

Both are Oneness manifest,
each the other and the One Love in Action,
dreaming difference
where there is none.Whoa, I wish I had said that this well.
This is poetic, just lovely.

:icon_cool:

[Miss Hepburn]

Which brings to mind the Zen story:

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: "The flag is moving."
The other said: "No, the wind is moving."
The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: "Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving." Gosh, I love this one. :hug3: These Zen stories are the best.


Nisargadatta:

''Why do you talk of action? Are you acting ever?
Some unknown power acts and you imagine that you are acting.
You are merely watching what happens, without being able to influence it in any way.''

[Unseeking Seeker]

Gosh, I love this one. :hug3: These Zen stories are the best.


Nisargadatta:

''Why do you talk of action? Are you acting ever?
Some unknown power acts and you imagine that you are acting.
You are merely watching what happens, without being able to influence it in any way.''

***

Now that’s a brilliant slow motion, easily comprehensible explanation for everyone! :hug3:

***

[Iamit]

Nice to see you back here, Iamit. Sorry to hear about your misfortune - but good to see that it hasn’t affected your capacity for consistency. :)

good to see you too moondance. yes its nice to know there is no escape:)

[Iamit]

Whoa, I wish I had said that this well.
This is poetic, just lovely.

:icon_cool:


Yes beautiful but all as oneness manifest is also very challenging as both sides of all conflict, both abuser and abused. Makes nonduality difficult to accept for some.

[God-Like]

There is only what you are that does .

What else is there?


x daz x

[Iamit]

There is only what you are that does .

What else is there?

doer whislt looking like
x daz x
From a nondual perspective, Oneness is the only reality and therefore the only doer whilst looking like all that manifests.

[Iamit]

There is only what you are that does .

What else is there?

doer whislt looking like
x daz x
From a nondual perspective, Oneness is the only reality and therefore the only doer whilst looking like all that manifests busy doing.

[MAYA EL]

That statement is in contrast to the original meaning of non-duality lol "from a non-duality " implies the option to be something other then one with all and if there is an option then there isn't a non-duality and seeing as there is you can rest assured theres no non-duality.

[Iamit]

[QUOTE=MAYA EL]That statement is in contrast to the original meaning of non-duality lol "from a non-duality " implies the option to be something other then one with all and if there is an option then there isn't a non-duality and seeing as there is you can rest assured theres no non-duality.[/QUOTE

nonduality is a concept. There
are of course other concepts that contradict it. For some All is One resonates and ends the search.

[MAYA EL]

Well as long as people feel comfortable that's all that really matters.

[God-Like]

From a nondual perspective, Oneness is the only reality and therefore the only doer whilst looking like all that manifests busy doing.

I think from conversations I have had with non dualists they simply portray the individual as something that is illusory in such a way where there is no one here / present to do anything .

Then there is the guru types that pass off their addictions to a lower self or the ego ..

It's all about passing the buck .


x daz x

[Iamit]

I think from conversations I have had with non dualists they simply portray the individual as something that is illusory in such a way where there is no one here / present to do anything .

Then there is the guru types that pass off their addictions to a lower self or the ego ..

It's all about passing the buck .


x daz x

Yes it is often described in those terms. The liberating resonance for some is with Oneness being the only reality and therefore the seeker is the same as, in reality is, all there is.