Does the idea that 'this place' is a Dream upset you?

[Miss Hepburn]

Does the thought that this place that you dwell in now, is a Dream bother you?
Why?
Does it seem impossible? Like, 'How could it be!?", as you knock on wood.:tongue:
Does it seem to negate everything that happens to you - that is done around you, that you do for others?

What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?
Let's get rid of that pesky fear or even anger! :tongue:

Is it that you think this being a Dream makes thing worthless here? All your loves and wonderful experiences?
Or does it just boggle your logical mind? And kinda make you frustrated?
We have some very smart people here, maybe it could be tackled. :hug3:
OR maybe even a bit explained!

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue:

[JustASimpleGuy]

Does the thought that this place that you dwell in now, is a Dream bother you?
Why?
Does it seem impossible? Like, 'How could it be!?", as you knock on wood.:tongue:
Does it seem to negate everything that happens to you - that is done around you, that you do for others?

What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?
Let's get rid of that pesky fear or even anger! :tongue:

Is it that you think this being a Dream makes thing worthless here? All your loves and wonderful experiences?
Or does it just boggle your logical mind? And kinda make you frustrated?
We have some very smart people here, maybe it could be tackled. :hug3:
OR maybe even a bit explained!

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue:





Nope, not in the least. :biggrin:

Then again my understanding or impression is it's unreal in the sense it's just not real enough. By that I mean it's finite in space and time. It had a beginning and will have an end, however it's a manifestation within an Absolute reality.

Call that Absolute reality God, Brahman, Consciousness, Unified Field, doesn't really matter. It is what It is, regardless the label.

[ocean breeze]

Like a dream everything appears so real at times and other times so dream like. Dreams and reality. Is there much of a difference?

[Miss Hepburn]

So, we'll all help some others.

[ocean breeze]

In a dream, i guess it doesn't matter. But if it makes your dream better then why not.

[JosephineB]

I think the proof that we're ok with this being a dream, is if we're afraid of this life/body death or not.

[inavalan]

It doesn't upset me.

I experienced death through regression many times. When you die, it feels exactly as it feels when you wake up from sleep. You wake up to another you than the one who just passed. You are more lucid, but not the perfect soul some religions preach. You are formless, and can imagine, and create anything you want, like in a lucid dream.

The difference between a lucid dream and the afterlife, is that from a nightmare you wake up, while if your afterlife emotions degenerate into a nightmarish scenario, you get born (you fall asleep). Until you develop your intellect and learn to master your emotions, you can't stay long into afterlife. You can incarnate willingly too, you don't have to wait to be precipitated into an incarnation.

Awake life is like a regular (non-lucid) dream. You don't know who you are, and react to whatever happens to you, with almost no control. In a dream, when you realize you're dreaming you become lucid. In the awake life, when you realize you're dreaming you become enlightened.

Surely, anybody can form their own opinion about this by learning regression. The trick is to be able to dissociate from your beliefs and expectations, and not let them distort your experience. This is something that most mediums don't do.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Perhaps the first line of contemplation should rest speculation on whether this is a dream or reality, just like when we dream, it seems like reality within the dream.

What is actually relevant is our moment to moment response, our reflex instinct, our state of consciousness or awareness, within the events playing out.

Once we reshape our own orientation, then we discover, layer by layer, veils of what we call maya, falling aside.

***

[zorkchop]

The real question should be . . . exactly HOW is this a dream ? ! What is really meant by “all of this is only a dream.” In what way is this physical reality a dream?

To dismiss all of this as a dream and that it doesn’t actually count or is unreal . . . or anything along those lines . . . is NOT the issue or point of “this is a dream.”

If people really and vividly knew the principle behind “this is a dream” . . . their approach to their own spiritual life would drastically change.

Please dismiss this post since it does not follow the popular paradigm.

[ocean breeze]

How is this a dream? How is this not a dream? What is a dream? In a dream do you believe you are dreaming? What is reality? Is reality real? What separates dreams from reality? Is dreaming apart of reality? Or is reality a part of our dream state existence? What makes one thing real while another not? Who decides what is real and what's not?

[JustASimpleGuy]

The real question should be . . . exactly HOW is this a dream ? ! What is really meant by “all of this is only a dream.” In what way is this physical reality a dream?

To dismiss all of this as a dream and that it doesn’t actually count or is unreal . . . or anything along those lines . . . is NOT the issue or point of “this is a dream.”

If people really and vividly knew the principle behind “this is a dream” . . . their approach to their own spiritual life would drastically change.

Please dismiss this post since it does not follow the popular paradigm.

I've mentioned my impression in quite a few posts. Dream, illusion, unreal, etc... are just metaphors for the finite vs. the infinite, the temporary vs. the permanent and I've used the electroweak force to illustrate my meaning.

In our reality electromagnetism and the nuclear weak force are two distinct and separate fundamental forces of nature, however if the energy level can be elevated high enough they fold into a single more fundamental force - the electroweak force. It's also hypothesized in GUT (Grand Unified Theory) if the energy level is increased further the electroweak force and nuclear strong force fold into a more fundamental force and increased even further GUT and gravity fold into an even more fundamental force as posited by TOE (Theory of Everything).

Advaita uses the analogy of clay. The underlying reality is clay, and a pot is just an appearance (in the above terminology dream, illusion, unreal). Clay can exist without the pot but the pot cannot exist without clay.

Similarly the electroweak force is a deeper level of reality and electromagnetism and the nuclear weak force are just appearances. The electrtoweak force can exist without electromagnetism and the nuclear weak force but not the reverse.

This video explains it better than I. https://youtu.be/RJ4Uv-5_3VM?list=PLN9BVzcnCCjMG_9JoAyXfywQvhBzzdrQA

[Jyotir]

Not at all.

Illusion doesn't mean unreal.
It's real, but there are (unsatisfying) conditions which may be surpassed.

God created it.
God supports it.
God transforms it.

It's an utterly unprecedented opportunity in and through each unique life.

Why be upset?

~ J

[wstein]

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue: Illusions come in many qualities. That we know its an illusion makes it a not very convincing one.

[iamthat]

Illusions come in many qualities. That we know its an illusion makes it a not very convincing one.

But how many of us really know that it is an illusion?

For most of the Earth's population this is all too real.

And most of those who pronounce that the world is an illusion still somehow get upset by things which happen in their particular illusion. If a brick lands on their head, they seldom say "Never mind. This brick, my head and the pain are all illusions."

As Jyotir says, illusion does not mean unreal. I go for the idea that everything is real on its own level, even if it is an illusion from the perspective of a higher level.

Peace

[HITESH SHAH]

Go with Jyotir's response.

Even if its' an illusion its the only opportunity to make a difference and more real (like great people in and around the world in past ).

[inavalan]

Dreams, daydreams, imagination, as well as this awake reality aren't illusions, the way I use these words. But none of them is more real than the other either.

Also, I believe that the awake reality isn't a greater opportunity to make a difference than the others, if anything it is a lesser one, because it has more constraints by design.

[CosmicWonder]

It doesn't upset me.

I experienced death through regression many times. When you die, it feels exactly as it feels when you wake up from sleep. You wake up to another you than the one who just passed. You are more lucid, but not the perfect soul some religions preach. You are formless, and can imagine, and create anything you want, like in a lucid dream.

The difference between a lucid dream and the afterlife, is that from a nightmare you wake up, while if your afterlife emotions degenerate into a nightmarish scenario, you get born (you fall asleep). Until you develop your intellect and learn to master your emotions, you can't stay long into afterlife. You can incarnate willingly too, you don't have to wait to be precipitated into an incarnation.

Awake life is like a regular (non-lucid) dream. You don't know who you are, and react to whatever happens to you, with almost no control. In a dream, when you realize you're dreaming you become lucid. In the awake life, when you realize you're dreaming you become enlightened.

Surely, anybody can form their own opinion about this by learning regression. The trick is to be able to dissociate from your beliefs and expectations, and not let them distort your experience. This is something that most mediums don't do.

This is very interesting to me...

I find the idea that life is a dream something that feels like truth, however I also feel extreme loneliness and isolation by it. Also I feel some feeling I can only describe as “horror”

[Miss Hepburn]

How is this a dream? How is this not a dream? What is a dream? In a dream do you believe you are dreaming? What is reality? Is reality real?
What separates dreams from reality? Is dreaming apart of reality? Or is reality a part of our dream state existence? What makes one thing real while another not? Who decides what is real and what's not?That's 11 questions!!! :biggrin:

[Miss Hepburn]

Illusions come in many qualities.
That we know its an illusion makes it a not very convincing one.Some of us looked behind the curtain :icon_cool:...I think that's build into the Illusion like the Holodeck exit.
Hit your thumb with a hammer - tell me this isn't a good Illusion, knock on wood - hear a child laugh...

[Miss Hepburn]

But how many of us really know that it is an illusion?
That's a whole other question.
The topic really is about -
even hearing the concept that it is ---does that bother you, how come?
"What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?" In the op.

Because it does bother posters here.
Maybe something said here would help them not get so bothered.

'Real and unreal' - big topics. :wink:

[inavalan]

This is very interesting to me...

I find the idea that life is a dream something that feels like truth, however I also feel extreme loneliness and isolation by it. Also I feel some feeling I can only describe as “horror”

You just have to realize that you can, and should make use of your dreams, both when you sleep, and you're awake.

You shouldn't feel lonely or isolated, because you always have direct access to all the other personalities, anywhere in space, time, and other planes. You just have to learn to do it.

That's why you are here, to practice creating reality while awake, dreaming, daydreaming.

Learn to get in contact with your subconscious, and through it to access further knowledge and guidance.

Are you learning anything from your night dreams? They are gems of symbolic knowledge and guidance. Those symbols are different from one person to another, even from one dream to another, and your inner source of knowledge and guidance will help you make sense of your dreams.

[guthrio]

Does the thought that this place that you dwell in now, is a Dream bother you?
Why?
Does it seem impossible? Like, 'How could it be!?", as you knock on wood.:tongue:
Does it seem to negate everything that happens to you - that is done around you, that you do for others?

What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?
Let's get rid of that pesky fear or even anger! :tongue:

Is it that you think this being a Dream makes thing worthless here? All your loves and wonderful experiences?
Or does it just boggle your logical mind? And kinda make you frustrated?
We have some very smart people here, maybe it could be tackled. :hug3:
OR maybe even a bit explained!

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue:





Miss Hepburn,

For me? Not at all!

Where would we be without giving ourselves, or being inspired by someone loving us enough to give, The Gift of Dreams...

...especially since we chose to avail ourselves of the opportunities to experience our own answers to your 11 questions (and to meet our fellow SF dreamers here), as well as to find answers to our own questions?

Why not Dream? :smile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU_cs25Ffg8&app=desktop

[Miss Hepburn]

:hug3:You just have to realize that you can, and should make use of your dreams, both when you sleep, and you're awake.
You shouldn't feel lonely or isolated, because you always have direct access to all the other personalities, anywhere in space, time, and other planes. You just have to learn to do it.
*That's why you are here, to practice creating reality while awake, dreaming, daydreaming.

Learn to get in contact with your subconscious, and through it to access further knowledge and guidance.
Are you learning anything from your night dreams? They are gems of symbolic knowledge and guidance. Those symbols are different from one person to another, even from one dream to another, and your inner source of knowledge and guidance will help you make sense of your dreams.That was very nice. :smile:


**realizefun - Did you see that from guthrio - 'The Gift of Dreams'.
A little shift in perspective and suddenly from a horror we
can see it as a 'gift'. (Ha or playground!)

[davidsun]

Do any of the ideas: "Dreams are real", "What one experiences in a 'dream' is really experienced", "There are no other experiences than what one experiences in one's 'dreams' as being 'true'" upset or bother you? Me (subjectively) thinks the lady 'protests' 'too much' in the foregoing regards.

https://literarydevices.net/lady-doth-protest-too-much/

[HITESH SHAH]

There will be fear if one is enjoying. But if one's dream is horror show full of pain,one may be happy knowing it is dream (Buddha's sarvam Dukham sarvam kshanikam theory).

The fear comes with the transientness associated with the word dream. people fear discontinuity which is invariably associated with dreams.

By thinking it an opportunity make real I mean making it great making a deep impact on society. I do not mean one can remove inherent physical barriers.

[CosmicWonder]

:hug3:That was very nice. :smile:


**realizefun - Did you see that from guthrio - 'The Gift of Dreams'.
A little shift in perspective and suddenly from a horror we
can see it as a 'gift'. (Ha or playground!)


Yeah of course I can see that... but the consequences that this would be a dream has isn’t very nice to me. Maybe something has to yet manifest... something that makes me less bothered...

For me it isn’t about whether the dream is nice or not. Of course, a nice dream is better. Or: I 100% prefer a nice dream. However, it seems kinda horror even though it could be a nice dream... nobody is real anymore when you get to 100% control. My control had grown in this lifetime, maybe not for the external world but rather for the internal one. And I’m slowly adapting. This inner source is growing and expanding. What does that mean? Can I even comprehend? It’s so big... I don’t mean my control, rather the thing I’m experiencing. It’s everywhere! And I just can’t help but feel horrified by it... it has something scary. I guess something to be solved.

Maybe I’ll find my way into acceptance. Idk. For now I just want to get “out of here” and wake up “outside the dream”. But honestly I think that might be even more scary. I don’t know what kind of crazy experiment this all is...

Maybe something else will make me feel a bit safer. But simply a shift of thoughts won’t do. This thing feels like extremely uncanny for me.

[MAYA EL]

This is reality not a dream but you can be blinded by your own delusions to where you lose tuch with really and are stuck in your own delusions

[ocean breeze]

That's 11 questions!!! :biggrin:

Are you trying to show off that you can count to 11? :icon_razz:

[Dargor]

An interesting theory to think about… The life you are experiencing right now may in fact just be flashbacks during the last 10 minutes of brain activity that continues after death. It may seem like a whole lifetime, but that's because time works differently in dreams.

[JustASimpleGuy]

An interesting theory to think about… The life you are experiencing right now may in fact just be flashbacks during the last 10 minutes of brain activity that continues after death. It may seem like a whole lifetime, but that's because time works differently in dreams.

The brain only functions at a level capable of producing a coherent conscious experience for about 20 or 30 seconds after its oxygen supply is cut off. That's why NDEs are of such interest and especially establishing when they occur. It's why cardiac arrest patients are of particular interest.

[Dargor]

The brain only functions at a level capable of producing a coherent conscious experience for about 20 or 30 seconds after its oxygen supply is cut off. That's why NDEs are of such interest and especially establishing when they occur. It's why cardiac arrest patients are of particular interest.

Actually, recent studies have proven that it may in fact last up to 10 minutes.

[JustASimpleGuy]

Actually, recent studies have proven that it may in fact last up to 10 minutes.

You're going to have to cite that research because I'm not aware of it.

[Dargor]

You're going to have to cite that research because I'm not aware of it.

https://www.sciencealert.com/brain-activity-recorded-as-much-as-10-minutes-after-death-human-science

You're welcome.

I have to add: 10 minutes is literally a rare case. But this does seem to prove that it can last longer than just 20 to 40 seconds.

[JustASimpleGuy]

https://www.sciencealert.com/brain-activity-recorded-as-much-as-10-minutes-after-death-human-science

You're welcome.

I have to add: 10 minutes is literally a rare case. But this does seem to prove that it can last longer than just 20 to 40 seconds.

You're basing your assertion from one recording of one patient and when the other three showed no such activity? So your statement saying "recent studies have proven" is inaccurate on several counts. It's only one study, and only one patient out of four. Furthermore the researchers caution not to jump to conclusions and to me that does not comport with "proven".

From the article:


"Before we get into the actual findings, the researchers are being very cautious about the implications, saying it's far too early to be talking about what this could mean for our post-death experience, especially considering their sample size is one.

In the absence of any biological explanation for how brain activity could possibly continue several minutes after the heart has stopped beating, the researchers said the scan could be the result of some kind of error at the time of recording.

But they were at a loss to explain what that error could be, as the medical equipment showed no signs of malfunction, meaning the source of the anomaly cannot be confirmed - biologically or otherwise.

"It is difficult to posit a physiological basis for this EEG activity given that it occurs after a prolonged loss of circulation," the researchers wrote.

"These waveform bursts could, therefore, be artefactual [human error] in nature, although an artefactual source could not be identified.""



The fact of the matter is every other study - how many would that be, tens of thousands? -
show no such indication that the cerebral cortex is functioning after loss of blood pressure. And you're claiming as fact one anomaly from one study from over a year ago? Check that, it's almost a three year old study that hasn't yet been replicated. Why not? Do you remember the faster than light neutrino from CERN to Italy?



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/what-happens-die-brain-activity-life-heart-beating-death-after-eeg-study-research-a7620131.html

The research could have huge medical and ethical implications for things such as organ donation

Andrew Griffin @_andrew_griffin
Thursday 9 March 2017 10:42
117 comments

[Miss Hepburn]

Are you trying to show off that you can count to 11? :icon_razz:Did it impress you? I hope so.:tongue:

[Dargor]

You're basing your assertion from one recording of one patient and when the other three showed no such activity? So your statement saying "recent studies have proven" is inaccurate on several counts. It's only one study, and only one patient out of four. Furthermore the researchers caution not to jump to conclusions and to me that does not comport with "proven".

From the article:


"Before we get into the actual findings, the researchers are being very cautious about the implications, saying it's far too early to be talking about what this could mean for our post-death experience, especially considering their sample size is one.

In the absence of any biological explanation for how brain activity could possibly continue several minutes after the heart has stopped beating, the researchers said the scan could be the result of some kind of error at the time of recording.

But they were at a loss to explain what that error could be, as the medical equipment showed no signs of malfunction, meaning the source of the anomaly cannot be confirmed - biologically or otherwise.

"It is difficult to posit a physiological basis for this EEG activity given that it occurs after a prolonged loss of circulation," the researchers wrote.

"These waveform bursts could, therefore, be artefactual [human error] in nature, although an artefactual source could not be identified.""



The fact of the matter is every other study - how many would that be, tens of thousands? -
show no such indication that the cerebral cortex is functioning after loss of blood pressure. And you're claiming as fact one anomaly from one study from over a year ago? Check that, it's almost a three year old study that hasn't yet been replicated. Why not? Do you remember the faster than light neutrino from CERN to Italy?



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/what-happens-die-brain-activity-life-heart-beating-death-after-eeg-study-research-a7620131.html

The research could have huge medical and ethical implications for things such as organ donation

Andrew Griffin @_andrew_griffin
Thursday 9 March 2017 10:42
117 comments

Ok 'study' then, if you don't mind the error. I was already aware of the date the article was placed, but three years doesn't seem that long imho, given how fast time goes by. The article also says ''But they were at a loss to explain what that error could be, as the medical equipment showed no signs of malfunction, meaning the source of the anomaly cannot be confirmed''. Either way, my case still stands about what I initially wrote; that your current life may be your own life memories flashing by at your final moments, even though I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure about an afterlife neither, considering how many NDEs don't actually match each other in detail and descricptions. How do you actually explain that (If you at least believe in life after death)?

[JustASimpleGuy]

Ok 'study' then, if you don't mind the error. I was already aware of the date the article was placed, but three years doesn't seem that long imho, given how fast time goes by. The article also says ''But they were at a loss to explain what that error could be, as the medical equipment showed no signs of malfunction, meaning the source of the anomaly cannot be confirmed''. Either way, my case still stands about what I initially wrote; that your current life may be your own life memories flashing by at your final moments, even though I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure about an afterlife neither, considering how many NDEs don't actually match each other in detail and descricptions. How do you actually explain that (If you at least believe in life after death)?

Actually, no it doesn't stand. That's one anomaly out of how many recordings? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Tens of millions?

How many people have succumbed to cardiac arrest on the operating table and have had EEG record activity in the cerebral cortex for more than 20 seconds or so?

Here's a hint: Unexplained, anomalous and non-reproducible results in scientific studies don't mean beans. Nada. Zip. Zilch. To push that one result as otherwise smacks of a rather large confirmation bias.

[Dargor]

Actually, no it doesn't stand. Sorry about the confusion, but I was refering to my first post here about the possibility of this life being just a life review in your final moment. Would you mind considering the question I just asked?

[JustASimpleGuy]

Sorry about the confusion, but I was refering to my first post here about the possibility of this life being just a life review in your final moment. Would you mind considering the question I just asked?

Doubtful. Too long, too complicated, too much continuity and it's not like life reviews reported during NDEs. They are panoramic, instantaneous and often reported through an empathic lens. That is its experienced from the other's perspective so the life review experience is experiencing the impact of his/her life on others.

If you are interested look into UVA DOPS presentations. They can be found on YouTube and cover NDEs, reincarnation, paranormal and mindfulness.

[Miss Hepburn]

....life reviews reported during NDEs. Life reviews in NDEs!?
Don't get me started - twice (for some reason - again no drugs /alcohol)
I was suddenly given or shown my life....all
these encounters and how they ALL were planned, orchestrated,
maneuvered on purpose just 'for me' perfectly...to come to 'this' moment.
Oh my.
These sudden 'visions' are pretty darn awe inspiring. :icon_eek:
I never know when they're comin'.

[CosmicWonder]

Life reviews in NDEs!?
Don't get me started - twice (for some reason - again no drugs /alcohol)
I was suddenly given or shown my life....all
these encounters and how they ALL were planned, orchestrated,
maneuvered on purpose just 'for me' perfectly...to come to 'this' moment.
Oh my.
These sudden 'visions' are pretty darn awe inspiring. :icon_eek:
I never know when they're comin'.

I think my life is orchestrated too. And it really changed me honestly. It’s very bad sometimes. But I’m already much nicer and wiser than I came in. I don’t state it as a fact though, and I’m always uncertain. But often it just feels orchestrated. It’s weird..

[ocean breeze]

Did it impress you? I hope so.:tongue:

Yes, you are a very impressive person. :wink:

[MAYA EL]

Actually, no it doesn't stand. That's one anomaly out of how many recordings? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Tens of millions?

How many people have succumbed to cardiac arrest on the operating table and have had EEG record activity in the cerebral cortex for more than 20 seconds or so?

Here's a hint: Unexplained, anomalous and non-reproducible results in scientific studies don't mean beans. Nada. Zip. Zilch. To push that one result as otherwise smacks of a rather large confirmation bias.
I would have to agree with you and my reason is that my NDE wasn't anything like the ** stories I always hear

[MikeS80]

Does the thought that this place that you dwell in now, is a Dream bother you?
Why?
Does it seem impossible? Like, 'How could it be!?", as you knock on wood.:tongue:
Does it seem to negate everything that happens to you - that is done around you, that you do for others?

What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?
Let's get rid of that pesky fear or even anger! :tongue:

Is it that you think this being a Dream makes thing worthless here? All your loves and wonderful experiences?
Or does it just boggle your logical mind? And kinda make you frustrated?
We have some very smart people here, maybe it could be tackled. :hug3:
OR maybe even a bit explained!

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue:



The only dream, illussion, mithya (false) and maya (ignorance) are peoples mental and emotional conditioning, incorrect, negative and limiting beliefs and thoughts.

"Non-dual Truth transcends, time, space, and causation. Note, that time and space create divisions. If something transcends time and space it has no limits or boundaries. Therefore, this Truth/Reality must be infinite, eternal, and indivisible, hence, all-pervading. Further, there cannot be two infinites. Thus Brahman is all there is. So what is this world? The statement above says it is mithya, false. But what does this false mean? It means changing, impermanent, perishable, superimposed, and dependent on something else for its existence. Another great statement from the Upanisads asserts, Sarvam khalvidam Brahman, All this, indeed, is Brahman. All this (idam), meaning that all we see with our mind and senses is Brahman, but we are not recognizing it as Brahman. And this is maya, ignorance, the cause of all suffering."
http://www.advaita-academy.org/blogs/brahman-satya/

[davidsun]

http://www.advaita-academy.org/blogs/brahman-satya/
From that page: "If one is not ready to examine the fact of suffering and the inability of objects, relationships, and activities to give ultimate satisfaction, one will not stick around long enough to understand that the world is real because Brahman is Real and realizing this in one's own Self is the Ultimate Fulfillment."

I Posted this because it presents a different perspective of 'the world' and 'Reality' (which I also 'see') than what I've generally heard coming from self-confessed Advaitists. It is off-point (IMO), however, because the view is still pre-occupied with issues associated with 'suffering', 'satisfaction', and 'fulfillment', i,e, 'ultimate fulfillment') (which are boon-doggles in my opinion, because there is not such 'ultimate' thang, IMO!) In my 'view', the essence of Life (of Creativity) which is Brahman - THAT which engages in the act of Creation, is 'Love-and-Joy', and are not interested in 'satisfaction' but rather in experiencing and expressing 'Love and Joy' to the max extent possible in whatever context it be Present. IT (Loving-and-enJoying) is Its' own 'reward'.

The idea that Brahman is just Awareness/Consciousness (or whatever else!) as well as the idea of there being some kind of 'Ultimate' 'Fulfillment' in terms of realizing the truth in said regard (or for that matter any) regard, does tremendous disservice to what IT really is, IMO. Why? Because the Flow of Life (a/k/a Brahman, d/b/a Love-and-Joy) and any constituent experience of expression of ITs Essence is ever-evolving and ever-increasing - the 'journey' in said regard never 'ends'! The idea of there being some kind of 'Ultimate' 'Fulfillment', is therefore completely delusional, again IMO.

To get back to the title of this thread, I (only) sometimes lament that there is such limitation/paucity in the 'dreams' so many people 'settle' for because, thinking-feeling-n-believing that theirs is the 'best' possible one, they cannot imagine there could be something better/greater than what they are already 'dreaming'.

[no1wakesup]

Does the thought that this place that you dwell in now, is a Dream bother you?
Why?
Does it seem impossible? Like, 'How could it be!?", as you knock on wood.:tongue:
Does it seem to negate everything that happens to you - that is done around you, that you do for others?

What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?
Let's get rid of that pesky fear or even anger! :tongue:

Is it that you think this being a Dream makes thing worthless here? All your loves and wonderful experiences?
Or does it just boggle your logical mind? And kinda make you frustrated?
We have some very smart people here, maybe it could be tackled. :hug3:
OR maybe even a bit explained!

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue:





Of course it does. The finite, as a particular identity, faces an outcome already prepared by the fear of losing something (someone) established long ago as primary. A form of a self anailation is determined and one quickly runs back to the safe conditioning of what it knows so well.

There of course is a relative you in a physical universe. However, it is the relative in perception that has inherited an identity. Being in line and anchored with the nature of a physical universe in time and space, we then assume we can reconcile that entire egoic reality by parcel and peace meal. Which is why this identity would rather search among the branches instead of the roots.

That whole unfolding is grossly dramatic. But that's the fuel the mind uses to keep chasing it's own tail.

None of this means the persona is useless. It simply IS as its present expression unfolds. Whether that expression is resting in the nature of what is or unconscious or asleep as it goes. All is well regardless.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

A dream is real while the dream is playing out

Waking is dreaming if we are unaware

Therefore, what really matters is what are we doing therein ... what are our core, reflex responses within the waking or dreaming state, as it may be.

***

[MikeS80]

From that page: "If one is not ready to examine the fact of suffering and the inability of objects, relationships, and activities to give ultimate satisfaction, one will not stick around long enough to understand that the world is real because Brahman is Real and realizing this in one's own Self is the Ultimate Fulfillment."

I Posted this because it presents a different perspective of 'the world' and 'Reality' (which I also 'see') than what I've generally heard coming from self-confessed Advaitists. It is off-point (IMO), however, because the view is still pre-occupied with issues associated with 'suffering', 'satisfaction', and 'fulfillment', i,e, 'ultimate fulfillment') (which are boon-doggles in my opinion, because there is not such 'ultimate' thang, IMO!) In my 'view', the essence of Life (of Creativity) which is Brahman - THAT which engages in the act of Creation, is 'Love-and-Joy', and are not interested in 'satisfaction' but rather in experiencing and expressing 'Love and Joy' to the max extent possible in whatever context it be Present. IT (Loving-and-enJoying) is Its' own 'reward'.

The idea that Brahman is just Awareness/Consciousness (or whatever else!) as well as the idea of there being some kind of 'Ultimate' 'Fulfillment' in terms of realizing the truth in said regard (or for that matter any) regard, does tremendous disservice to what IT really is, IMO. Why? Because the Flow of Life (a/k/a Brahman, d/b/a Love-and-Joy) and any constituent experience of expression of ITs Essence is ever-evolving and ever-increasing - the 'journey' in said regard never 'ends'! The idea of there being some kind of 'Ultimate' 'Fulfillment', is therefore completely delusional, again IMO.

To get back to the title of this thread, I (only) sometimes lament that there is such limitation/paucity in the 'dreams' so many people 'settle' for because, thinking-feeling-n-believing that theirs is the 'best' possible one, they cannot imagine there could be something better/greater than what they are already 'dreaming'.Davidsun, it all depends on how you interpret fulfillment and fulfillment for what. is it fulfillment for material things or is it fulfillment for truth/brahman? It is a psychology and spiritual fact that most humans have an empty feeling inside like something is missing from them, that something missing is truth/brahman and so humans turn to religion or to the spiritual to fullfil that feeling of emtyness, I included. Most people try to fullfil their feeling of emptyness by looking/searching outside of themselves, which never works because all the spiritual misinformation out there causes mithya (false beliefs) and Maya (ignorance) of truth/brahman and the result is pain, suffering, confusion and conflicts. It is not off-topic, it is the topic.

You added your own incorrect personal assertion to the article when you said "The idea that Brahman is just Awareness/Consciousness (or whatever else!) as well as the idea of there being some kind of 'Ultimate' 'Fulfillment' in terms of realizing the truth in said regard (or for that matter any) regard, does tremendous disservice to what IT really is, " Where in the article did the article say that Brahman is just Awareness/Consciousness? The article did not say that. The ultimate fulfillment the article is talking about is the fulfillment of brahman so again that is the topic at hand. Brahman or truth needs to be the only topic because everything else, besides truth/brahman lead to mithya (false beliefs) and Maya (ignorance) of truth. It may not be complex enough for you, but the truth is not complex at all. complexity creates contradictions, conflicts and confusion.

What you say here: "Because the Flow of Life (a/k/a Brahman, d/b/a Love-and-Joy) and any constituent experience of expression of ITs Essence is ever-evolving and ever-increasing - the 'journey' in said regard never 'ends'! The idea of there being some kind of 'Ultimate' 'Fulfillment', is therefore completely delusional, again IMO." sounds like you are talking about the evolution part of brahman and is partly mithya (partly a false belief) and Maya (ignorance) of truth. And you are saying Brahman is delusional while you talk about the same brahman, do you see the contradiction there?

Edit: truth/brahman rules and mithya (false beliefs) and Maya (ignorance) of truth drools :)

[HITESH SHAH]

I think David is not contradicting any Advait principle . He too is aware of inability of worldly objects to satisfy one on an ongoing basis independently.

He merely states that some seekers and Gurus (who talk of one-moment instant ultimate enlightenment /realization/spiritual bliss ) are incorrect and miss the ongoing reality. He believes that non-duality is continuous ongoing matter. He appears to have good knowledge Brahma Satya Jagan Mithya and respects it .

So I see no differences here unless any of you brings any other point .

[Iamit]

Niz said something like 'Why go beyond the dream, you will only find more dream'.

[JustASimpleGuy]

Without Consciousness there is no Maya. Without Maya there is still Consciousness.

Before the Big Bang exploded into Maya there was Consciousness. After the Big Chill/Crunch Maya ceases but still there is Consciousness. Perhaps it's even a more fundamental beginning and ending of physical/objective reality that encompasses near infinite Big Bangs and Big Chills/Crunches. A much grander scale of cycles.

Between Big Bang and Big Chill/Crunch Consciousness experiences Maya. Before Big Bang and after Big Chill/Crunch Consciousness experiences absence (this is different than absence of experience which implies absence of Consciousness).

The sticking point or point of confusion seems to be language, specifically words like unreal, illusion, dream. I like to think of it as less real as in transitory vs. Absolute or Infinite. That which changes, has a beginning and an end, is less real than that which doesn't change. That which is Absolute, Infinite.

To be frank the questions of who or what am I and what is real and unreal now seem second order to me. The interesting question is "Why?' and for me it comes down to experience of Maya vs. experience of absence. The purpose of Maya is for the Absolute to experience Itself, so yes, Consciousness and Maya are One.


Two Steps to the Not-Two.

Short Version - https://youtu.be/kPdsAPlK2Js

Long Version - https://youtu.be/linp33m9rIk?list=PLN9BVzcnCCjMD3Nrh3UyrF2rGcUqIb4O F

[MikeS80]

I think David is not contradicting any Advait principle . He too is aware of inability of worldly objects to satisfy one on an ongoing basis independently.

He merely states that some seekers and Gurus (who talk of one-moment instant ultimate enlightenment /realization/spiritual bliss ) are incorrect and miss the ongoing reality. He believes that non-duality is continuous ongoing matter. He appears to have good knowledge Brahma Satya Jagan Mithya and respects it .

So I see no differences here unless any of you brings any other point .Davidsun did not contradict any Advait principle, that is not the point. My response to him, was to the comment he made to me about brahman being the flow of life. I do not disagree with that but saying brahman is just the flow of life and love and joy does not help anyone on a deeper level. A lot of people (including those who are new to spirituality ) do not see the flow of life as love and joy. A lot of people think that the flow of life in the universe is chaotic or random because of the beliefs they have that are not based on truth/brahman. He said brahman is the flow of life, he did not say once that brahman is the cause of the flow of life. Brahman/truth is all there is and is not limited to just the flow of life.

The point was Davidsun said Brahman/truth is delusional, which is totally and completely absurd. Brahman/truth/absolute or ultimate reality is infinite, eternal, and indivisible, hence, all-pervading, wheher a person see's it or knows it or not. That is the foundation of truth/brahman. It is easy to see that Davidsun is pre-occupied with the flow of life part of brahman and is partly maya (partly ignorant) of all brahman/truth. There is a deeper aspect to brahman or truth than just the flow of life. Saying that brahman is the flow of life and love and joy sounds beautiful but, it could be a play on emotions and even more conditioning.

[MikeS80]

Without Consciousness there is no Maya. Without Maya there is still Consciousness.Yes, because maya is ignorance of brahman. Brahman is all there is.

[MikeS80]

Niz said something like 'Why go beyond the dream, you will only find more dream'.Who is Niz?

[HITESH SHAH]

Davidsun did not contradict any Advait principle, that is not the point. My response to him, was to the comment he made to me about brahman being the flow of life. I do not disagree with that but saying brahman is just the flow of life and love and joy does not help anyone on a deeper level. A lot of people (including those who are new to spirituality ) do not see the flow of life as love and joy. A lot of people think that the flow of life in the universe is chaotic or random because of the beliefs they have that are not based on truth/brahman. He said brahman is the flow of life, he did not say once that brahman is the cause of the flow of life. Brahman/truth is all there is and is not limited to just the flow of life.

The point was Davidsun said Brahman/truth is delusional, which is totally and completely absurd. Brahman/truth/absolute or ultimate reality is infinite, eternal, and indivisible, hence, all-pervading, wheher a person see's it or knows it or not. That is the foundation of truth/brahman. It is easy to see that Davidsun is pre-occupied with the flow of life part of brahman and is partly maya (partly ignorant) of all brahman/truth. There is a deeper aspect to brahman or truth than just the flow of life. Saying that brahman is the flow of life and love and joy sounds beautiful but, it could be a play on emotions and even more conditioning.

I think difference appears to be more of nuances than that of substance. His main grudge (from all his earlier writings ) appears to be spiritualist/ advaitists often ignoring real life duties in the name of spirituality/non-duality(which many a times stems for incomplete knowledge of such concepts) .

Nevertheless I think DS would be best to clarify if it he really means something different.

[MikeS80]

I think difference appears to be more of nuances than that of substance. His main grudge (from all his earlier writings ) appears to be spiritualist/ advaitists often ignoring real life duties in the name of spirituality/non-duality(which many a times stems for incomplete knowledge of such concepts) .

Nevertheless I think DS would be best to clarify if it he really means something different.That may be true but Davidsun commented that Brahman/truth is a delusion and that there is no ultimate of anything. Davidsun making that comment is 100% mithya (false) and leads to maya (ignorance) of the ultimate everything, which is brahman/truth.

Edit: I do not think I can get any clearer on the above topic than what I said above.

[MikeS80]

That may be true but Davidsun commented that Brahman/truth is a delusion and that there is no ultimate of anything. Davidsun making that comment is 100% mithya (false) and leads to maya (ignorance) of the ultimate everything, which is brahman/truth.

Edit: I do not think I can get any clearer on the above topic than what I said above.Brahman is truth and truth is the singularity or foundation most people call god, brahman, source, the seen universe and parts of the universe we can't or do not see etc. The opposite of the truth causes mithya (false mental and emotional conditioning) and maya (ignorance) of the truth, this maya (ignorance) causes illusions, separation or duality. These illusions caused by the combination of Mithya (false mental and emotional conditioning) and maya (ignorance) of the truth are what causes people pain, suffering, limitations, scarcity etc etc.

Brahman or truth is the ultimate or absolute reality that is right in front of our eyes, in the right here and now. Someone who says differently, is causing mithya (false mental and emotional conditioning), which leads to maya (ignorance) of the truth. There ain't no ifs, ands or butts because singular Truth is never ever untrue at any time, place, or circumstance. The Singular truth, which is truth or brahman is all there is, transcends all mithya (false mental and emotional conditioning) and maya (ignorance), time, space, limitations, and causation.

If you are spreading mithya (false mental and emotional conditioning) and maya (ignorance) of the truth, you are part of the "problem", not a solution.

[Iamit]

Who is Niz?

Short for Nisargadatta. It was one of his statements to indicate that what was sought already is. On the other hand he sometimes advocated practice. What he taught seemed to vary with what he thought suited different seekers. For example he said to one seeker who was despairing about ever succeeding wth practice, that he was in a most advantageous position, suggesting that his realization was close when dissolutioned with practice.

[MikeS80]

Short for Nisargadatta. It was one of his statements to indicate that what was sought already is. On the other hand he sometimes advocated practice. What he taught seemed to vary with what he thought suited different seekers. For example he said to one seeker who was despairing about ever succeeding wth practice, that he was in a most advantageous position, suggesting that realization was close when dissolutioned with practice.Ok, thanks

[HITESH SHAH]

If you are spreading mithya (false mental and emotional conditioning) and maya (ignorance) of the truth, you are part of the "problem", not a solution.

I believe what u say about Brahman/Mithya is all right ,perfect and according to scripture dictated wisdom only . Nobody (probably including DS) should have any issue with it. I think DS's Delusion comment is with respect one-moment-instant-ultimate-kind-of-non-duality which many seekers perhaps think is possible without doing anything / without any realization .

Let's wait for DS to understand whether he meant anything different.

[davidsun]

Davidsun, it all depends on how you interpret fulfillment and fulfillment for what. is it fulfillment for material things or is it fulfillment for truth/brahman?
The idea of 'fufillment' is flawed either way. The 'balloon' :smile: perimeter of one's personal soul (atman) as well as of our all-encompassing oversoul (Brahman) - the former is just an aspect of the latter- is infinitely elastic and ever-expanding.

(Hypnotic) Experience or prophecy/promise of 'complete' FULL-fill-ment is therefore a false (concept-based) projection.

See https://youtu.be/Ua-_wzfu-sc to get an idea of what it is that I think is the phenomenological case[/U] in this regard pertianing to people who buy into passages like the one talking about 'fulfillment' which I commented on.

Those who 'claim' the actuality [B]or 'sweet'-carrot-dangle the possibility of 'fulfillment' or 'ultimate fulfillment' in face of 'gullible followers' are therefore ipso facto examples of what is called "Spiritual Materialism" (IMO). You've seen peeps strut-displaying as well as advertising 'wealth' in material regards, I assume. I thinl the same holds true in the case of a huge variety of ostensibly spiritually 'fulfilled' 'adepts' and 'promoters' (not just Advaitians, now)!

Muchas Gracias you for your discerning commentary and additions to the conversation, HS.

[MikeS80]

The idea of 'fufillment' is flawed either way. The 'balloon' :smile: perimeter of one's personal soul (atman) as well as of our all-encompassing oversoul (Brahman) - the former is just an aspect of the latter- is infinitely elastic and ever-expanding.

(Hypnotic) Experience or prophecy/promise of 'complete' FULL-fill-ment is therefore a false (concept-based) projection.

See https://youtu.be/Ua-_wzfu-sc to get an idea of what it is that I think is the phenomenological case[/U] in this regard pertianing to people who buy into passages like the one talking about 'fulfillment' which I commented on.

Those who 'claim' the actuality [B]or 'sweet'-carrot-dangle the possibility of 'fulfillment' or 'ultimate fulfillment' in face of 'gullible followers' are therefore ipso facto examples of what is called "Spiritual Materialism" (IMO). You've seen peeps strut-displaying as well as advertising 'wealth' in material regards, I assume. I thinl the same holds true in the case of a huge variety of ostensibly spiritually 'fulfilled' 'adepts' and 'promoters' (not just Advaitians, now)!

Muchas Gracias you for your discerning commentary and additions to the conversation, HS.Fulfillment of truth or brahman is not an idea, concept, narrative, or hypnotic suggestion. The 2nd definition of Fulfillment is: the state of being actual or complete
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/fulfillment

Fulfillment, in the context of the article is self/god realization, being content, happy and satisfied. Proof of this are on the last 4 paragraphs of the article you commented on
https://thesaurus.yourdictionary.com/fulfillment

Here is the full context of the article you commented on, my emphasis is in bold : "But the real issue is whether or not a person is ready to let go of the expectation that he or she can find true fulfillment in the world, with objects and activities. If one is not ready to examine the fact of suffering and the inability of objects, relationships, and activities to give ultimate satisfaction, one will not stick around long enough to understand that the world is real because Brahman is Real and realizing this in one's own Self is the Ultimate Fulfillment". The last couple of paragraphs of the article reads as follows: "That one, the Eternal among non-eternals, the Intelligence of the intelligent, who though ever one fulfills the desires of the many those who realize that One as existing in their own self, to them belongs eternal peace, and to none else." and...

"Shining like burnished gold in the luminous sheath of intelligence, the deepest core of the human being, there dwells Brahman, stainless, indivisible, and pure. That is the Light of all that shines.That is what the knowers of the Self realize."

I know you do not believe in self realization, by the comments you made in other threads and I can not help with that. But to say that self realization is false, because you do not believe in it or have not experienced it yourself, is mithya (false).

[MikeS80]

I believe what u say about Brahman/Mithya is all right ,perfect and according to scripture dictated wisdom only . Nobody (probably including DS) should have any issue with it. I think DS's Delusion comment is with respect one-moment-instant-ultimate-kind-of-non-duality which many seekers perhaps think is possible without doing anything / without any realization .

Let's wait for DS to understand whether he meant anything different.The article that Davidsun commented on was not a one-moment-instant-ultimate-kind-of-non-duality which many seekers perhaps think is possible without doing anything / without any realization. Davidsun missed the self realization part of the article completly. See my response to Davidsun that is before this one.

[JustASimpleGuy]

David can correct me if I'm wrong, but I now think I understand where he's coming from. His is a criticism of radical Neo-Advaita. Many view it as a very superficial Advaita with a tendency towards nihilism, lacking the moral and ethical aspects of Advait Vedanta due to eschewing study of and putting into practice the various Yogas.

[davidsun]

The article that Davidsun commented on was not a one-moment-instant-ultimate-kind-of-non-duality which many seekers perhaps think is possible without doing anything / without any realization. Davidsun missed the self realization part of the article completly. See my response to Davidsun that is before this one.
I get your 'point'. You do not seem to get mine, however. In the context presented by such article, I restate: you and I and 'Brahman' (as well!) are always 'in' (ever-unfolding, ever-expanding-revelation!) being-becoming process - there cannot be and so there is no 'ultimate' 'realization' (call it 'fulfillment' or anything else you wish to) in terms of what 'self' or 'Brahman' actually is. I reiterate: IMO, anyone who thinks or feels or believes they are or are headed towards living such 'ultimacy' is living in a 'cocoon' of delusion, walled off from as well as, by virtue of what they proclaim, promoting 'ignorance' of 'greater' possibilities (this includes the author of what's said in the article which I partially agreed with).

[davidsun]

David can correct me if I'm wrong, but I now think I understand where he's coming from. His is a criticism of radical Neo-Advaita. Many view it as a very superficial Advaita with a tendency towards nihilism, lacking the moral and ethical aspects of Advait Vedanta due to eschewing study of and putting into practice the various Yogas.
You are not wrong. My criticism, however, is really of 'simple'-mindedness in relation to any philosophical formulation or derivative practice.

I articulated my positionality in this regard in:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1905599&postcount=26

[davidsun]

You are not wrong. My criticism, however, is really of 'simple'-mindedness in relation to any philosophical formulation or derivative practice.

I articulated my positionality in this regard in:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1905599&postcount=26
Carlos Castaneda's mentor, Don Juan described 'the problem' simple-mindedness (on the part of those who aspire to become what he called 'Men/women of Knowledge') typically leads to, thusly:

"What will happen to the man if he runs away in fear?"

"Nothing happens to him except that he will never learn. He will never become a man of knowledge. He will perhaps be a bully, or a harmless, scared man; at any rate, he will be a defeated man. His first enemy will have put an end to his cravings."

"And what can he do to overcome fear?"

"The answer is very simple. He must not run away. He must defy his fear, and in spite of it he must take the next step in learning, and the next, and the next. He must be definitely afraid, and yet he must not stop. That is the rule! And a moment will come when his first enemy retreats. The man begins to feel sure of himself. His intent becomes stronger. Learning is no longer a terrifying task.

"When this joyful moment comes, the man can say without hesitation that he has defeated his first natural enemy."

"Does it happen at once, don Juan, or little by little?"

"It happens little by little, and yet the fear is vanquished suddenly and fast."

"But won't the man be afraid again if something new happens to him?"

"No. Once a man has vanquished fear, he is free from it for the rest of his life because, instead of fear, he has acquired clarity - a clarity of mind which erases fear. By then a man knows his desires; he knows how to satisfy those desires. He can anticipate the new steps of learning, and a sharp clarity surrounds everything. The man feels that nothing is concealed.

"And thus he has encountered his second enemy:

Clarity! That clarity of mind, which is so hard to obtain, dispels fear, but also blinds.

"It forces the man never to doubt himself. It gives him the assurance he can do anything he pleases, for he sees clearly into everything. And he is courageous because he is clear, and he stops at nothing because he is clear. But all that is a mistake; it is like something incomplete. If the man yields to this make-believe power, he has succumbed to his second enemy and will be patient when he should rush. And he will fumble with learning until he winds up incapable of learning anything more."

"What becomes of a man who is defeated in that way, don Juan? Does he die as a result?"

"No, he doesn't die. His second enemy has just stopped him cold from trying to become a man of knowledge; instead, the man may turn into a buoyant warrior, or a clown. Yet the clarity for which he had paid so dearly will never change to darkness and fear again. He will be clear as long as he lives, but he will no longer learn, or yearn for, anything."

"But what does he have to do to avoid being defeated?"

"He must do what he did with fear: he must defy his clarity and use it only to see, and wait patiently and measure carefully before taking new steps; he must think above all, that his clarity is almost a mistake. And a moment will come when he will understand that his clarity was only a point before his eyes. And thus he will have overcome his second enemy, and will arrive at a position where nothing can harm him any more. This will not be a mistake. It will not be only point before his eyes. It will be true power.

"He will know at this point that the power he has been pursuing for so long is finally his. He can do with it whatever he pleases. His ally is at his command. His wish is the rule. He sees all that is around him. But he has also come across his third enemy. Power!

Re: Power ... that's a whole 'nother issue! :biggrin:

[JustASimpleGuy]

You are not wrong. My criticism, however, is really of 'simple'-mindedness in relation to any philosophical formulation or derivative practice.

I articulated my positionality in this regard in:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1905599&postcount=26

And this too is Maya. Some are more comfortable in the shallow end of the pool. Perhaps even fearful of the deep end of the pool.

"Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me."

“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

"Clean your room."

It seems to me the best change, in truth the only meaningful change, is changing one's self and allow the ripples to spread outward.

[JustASimpleGuy]

You are not wrong. My criticism, however, is really of 'simple'-mindedness in relation to any philosophical formulation or derivative practice.

I articulated my positionality in this regard in:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1905599&postcount=26

This is a very good explanation. It speaks to the heart of what I mean when I use "less real" as opposed to "unreal".

https://realitymaps.com/2014/06-advaitanihilism.html

It's a long article and has all the arguments against nihilism, however near the bottom it starts with this:

"A more useful perspective is given by Chingyuan Xingsi, a Chinese sage from the 8th Century:

First there are mountains and rivers. Then there are no mountains, no rivers. Then there are mountains and rivers.

What Xingsi means in the above quote is that when we realise the non-existence of all things, we still come back to live in the world of things. He is not saying that mountains and rivers neither exist nor do not exist, rather he is giving a particular sequence of awakening. Before we wake up to the ultimate reality, we live in a virtual reality created by our collective minds. Then, when we question the reality of everything we realise that "reality" is not as objective as we previously thought — that even a solid object like a mountain does not exist outside of the consciousness that perceives it. This requires a rejection of objectivity in order to place consciousness squarely back into he centre of experience. And finally, when we have placed consciousness back into its rightful role and dismissed blind objectivity, we can return to the world of things, but this time in full recognition that things have no ultimate reality… that their nature is ephemeral… although they have some reality. In this way, meaning is invited back as a guest, but not as full-time tenant."

EDIT: Refer back to either of the two videos I linked in an above post: "Two Steps to the Not-Two: Swami Sarvapriyananda"

[JustASimpleGuy]

Jesus understood this too.

Non-duality - "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me."

Duality - “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

And:

https://swamivivekanandaquotesgarden.blogspot.com/2013/12/swami-vivekanandas-quotes-and-comments_8298.html

"You find there the idea of oneness; but Christ also preached dualistic ideas to the people in order to give them something tangible to take hold of, to lead them up to the highest ideal. The same Prophet who preached, "Our Father which art in heaven", also preached, "I and my Father are one", and the same Prophet knew that through the "Father in heaven" lies the way to the "I and my Father are one"."

I also find examples in science.

Duality - Electromagnetism and the nuclear weak force.

Non-duality - Electroweak force.

And of course the ultimate concept of non-duality in science, TOE or Unified Field.

[MikeS80]

I get your 'point'. You do not seem to get mine, however. In the context presented by such article, I restate: you and I and 'Brahman' (as well!) are always 'in' (ever-unfolding, ever-expanding-revelation!) being-becoming process - there cannot be and so there is no 'ultimate' 'realization' (call it 'fulfillment' or anything else you wish to) in terms of what 'self' or 'Brahman' actually is. I reiterate: IMO, anyone who thinks or feels or believes they are or are headed towards living such 'ultimacy' is living in a 'cocoon' of delusion, walled off from as well as, by virtue of what they proclaim, promoting 'ignorance' of 'greater' possibilities (this includes the author of what's said in the article which I partially agreed with).You agree and I agree that it is all about the realization of ultimate/absolute reality or truth.

[JustASimpleGuy]

Here's the kicker, the big reveal.

Without Maya there is only experience of absence. Maya is a power of the Absolute that provides the Absolute a rich experience of Itself.

Realize the nature of Maya but don't reject Maya. In essence it's rejecting one's Self or at least one's experience of one's Self. Unless I suppose one wants to spend one's life in a cave in the Himalayas or hut on the Ganges in 24x7 Samadhi. By the way, Vivekananda thought that a huge waste and in effect selfish. He advocated selfless engagement.

[MikeS80]

Here's the kicker, the big reveal.

Without Maya there is only experience of absence. Maya is a power of the Absolute that provides the Absolute a rich experience of Itself.

Realize the nature of Maya but don't reject Maya. In essence it's rejecting one's Self or at least one's experience of one's Self. Unless I suppose one wants to spend one's life in a cave in the Himalayas or hut on the Ganges in 24x7 Samadhi. By the way, Vivekananda thought that a huge waste and in effect selfish. He advocated selfless engagement.Maya is ignorance caused by mithya (false beliefs or the lack of beliefs of Brahman-ultimate reality or false conditioning about Brahman-ultimate reality). Take away both Maya and mithya and you have truth/brahman.

[MikeS80]

Maya is ignorance caused by mithya (false beliefs or the lack of beliefs of Brahman-ultimate reality or false conditioning about Brahman-ultimate reality). Take away both Maya and mithya and you have truth/brahman.Ultimate reality can also be called objective reality. Objective reality is free from both false beliefs or the lack of beliefs of Brahman-ultimate reality or false conditioning about Brahman-ultimate reality, which causes ignorance of ultimate reality. I use Objective in the following definitions from
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective

Definition of objective (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
objective art
an objective history of the war
an objective judgment
bof a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
Each question on the objective test requires the selection of the correct answer from among several choices.
2a: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind
objective reality
… our reveries … are significantly and repeatedly shaped by our transactions with the objective world.
— Marvin Reznikoff

[JustASimpleGuy]

Ultimate reality can also be called objective reality. Objective reality is free from both false beliefs or the lack of beliefs of Brahman-ultimate reality or false conditioning about Brahman-ultimate reality, which causes ignorance of ultimate reality. I use Objective in the following definitions from
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective

Definition of objective (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
objective art
an objective history of the war
an objective judgment
bof a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
Each question on the objective test requires the selection of the correct answer from among several choices.
2a: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind
objective reality
… our reveries … are significantly and repeatedly shaped by our transactions with the objective world.
— Marvin Reznikoff

Objective reality is Maya. That's at the core of Advaita. :wink:

https://youtu.be/ske-PYBCq54

[MikeS80]

Objective reality is Maya. That's at the core of Advaita. :wink:

https://youtu.be/ske-PYBCq54That is Mithya (false beliefs). You might as well say brahman is Maya-ignrance. Please do not confuse maya or ignarance with Mithya-False beliefs.

[davidsun]

You agree and I agree that it is all about the realization of ultimate/absolute reality or truth.
No we don't agree. In my view, it (LIFE, experience, expression, being, doing, becoming, reality, etc,) is all subjective, i.e. fluid, hence eternally ever-evolving, subjectivity in action. There is no 'ultimate' in this regard.

See http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1929615#post1929615

[JustASimpleGuy]

That is Mithya (false beliefs). You might as well say brahman is Maya-ignrance. Please do not confuse maya or ignarance with Mithya-False beliefs.

You cannot objectify Consciousness (It's purely subjective), and since you are stating that's the ultimate reality then ultimate reality is subjective, not objective. The minute you objectify you limit within the constraints of time, space and causation. Stating ultimate reality is objective reality is the little version of God, not Brahman. It's the manifest, not the Unmanifest.

This is the basic starting point (and end point) of Advaita/non-duality.

[MikeS80]

That is Mithya (false beliefs). You might as well say brahman is Maya-ignrance. Please do not confuse maya or ignarance with Mithya-False beliefs.Saying maya means illusion or not real is misinformation. Mithya, which means false is the correct word to use. I wonder if this bait and switch tactic was done on purpose to create confusion and conflicts?...Hmmmm

[MikeS80]

You cannot objectify Consciousness (It's purely subjective), and since you are stating that's the ultimate reality then ultimate reality is subjective, not objective. The minute you objectify you limit within the constraints of time, space and causation. Stating ultimate reality is objective reality is the little version of God, not Brahman. It's the manifest, not the Unmanifest.

This is the basic starting point (and end point) of Advaita/non-duality.Read the definitions I gave for objective in my post, subjective is the opposite of those definitions.

Definition of subjective:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective

4a(1): peculiar to a particular individual : PERSONAL
subjective judgments
(2): modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background
a subjective account of the incident.

[MikeS80]

Read the definitions I gave for objective in my post, subjective is the opposite of those definitions.

Definition of subjective:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective

4a(1): peculiar to a particular individual : PERSONAL
subjective judgments
(2): modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background
a subjective account of the incident.Subjective is based on time/memory while objective is not based on time/memory. Subjective is limited or finite, objective is infinite and eternal.

[JustASimpleGuy]

Saying maya means illusion or not real is misinformation. Mithya, which means false is the correct word to use. I wonder if this bait and switch tactic was done on purpose to create confusion and conflicts?...Hmmmm

I wouldn't worry about it. This is something that requires an accomplished Vedanta scholar to decipher and actually understand in the context of Advaita. It's WAY above my pay grade. LOL!

https://www.advaita-vision.org/origin-and-meaning-of-the-word-mithya/

[MikeS80]

I wouldn't worry about it. This is something that requires an accomplished Vedanta scholar to decipher and actually understand in the context of Advaita. It's WAY above my pay grade. LOL!

https://www.advaita-vision.org/origin-and-meaning-of-the-word-mithya/That too is Mithya and maya.

http://www.advaita-academy.org/blogs/brahman-satya/

[JustASimpleGuy]

Read the definitions I gave for objective in my post, subjective is the opposite of those definitions.

Definition of subjective:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjective

4a(1): peculiar to a particular individual : PERSONAL
subjective judgments
(2): modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background
a subjective account of the incident.

I think it's a non-starter using Merriam-Webster to understand Advaita. As I see it there are two approaches to understanding.

1 - Learn Sanksrit then spend decades studying the Vedas, Upanishads and philosophies and commentaries developed from and about them.

2 - Listen to lectures by those who have undertaking Step 1.

[MikeS80]

I think it's a non-starter using Merriam-Webster to understand Advaita. As I see it there are two approaches to understanding.

1 - Learn Sanksrit then spend decades studying the Vedas, Upanishads and philosophies and commentaries developed from and about them.

2 - Listen to lectures by those who have undertaking Step 1.The definition of words is not the issue. The issue is with what a person thinks, based on memory, a word means. The dictionary is available to us in ultimate reality to look up, what a word means- such as objective and subjective.

[MikeS80]

Back to the topic of this thread. A dream, illusion and not real or what ever else you want to call it, is a combination of both Mithya (false beliefs and false mental and emotional conditioning) and maya (ignorance of this here truth). Wherever there is Mithya, maya or ignorance of the truth follows. Ignorance of the truth always follows false beliefs and false mental and emotional conditioning.

[MikeS80]

Back to the topic of this thread. A dream, illusion and not real or what ever else you want to call it, is a combination of both Mithya (false beliefs and false mental and emotional conditioning) and maya (ignorance of this here truth). Wherever there is Mithya, maya or ignorance of the truth follows. Ignorance of the truth always follows false beliefs and false mental and emotional conditioning.Brahman / truth / ultimate reality is all there is. Anyone one who says differently, is spreading Mithya and Maya like a virus or plague.

[iamthat]

Brahman / truth / ultimate reality is all there is. Anyone one who says differently, is spreading Mithya and Maya like a virus or plague.

Yet if Brahman / truth / ultimate reality is all there is then there is no Mithya or Maya or viruses or plagues. There is only Brahman.

Peace

[MikeS80]

Yet if Brahman / truth / ultimate reality is all there is then there is no Mithya or Maya or viruses or plagues. There is only Brahman.

PeaceExactly, But I think that will confuse people. It is more accurate to say, When Brahman / truth / ultimate reality is all there for a person, there will be no Mithya or Maya or viruses or plagues for that person. There will be only Brahman for that person. Which is the whole entire point. :biggrin:

[Joe Mc]

Does the thought that this place that you dwell in now, is a Dream bother you?
Why?
Does it seem impossible? Like, 'How could it be!?", as you knock on wood.:tongue:
Does it seem to negate everything that happens to you - that is done around you, that you do for others?

What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?
Let's get rid of that pesky fear or even anger! :tongue:

Is it that you think this being a Dream makes thing worthless here? All your loves and wonderful experiences?
Or does it just boggle your logical mind? And kinda make you frustrated?
We have some very smart people here, maybe it could be tackled. :hug3:
OR maybe even a bit explained!

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue:





Not at all ! Quite the opposite ! The idea that this is not a dream prevails mostly here in what we call life and with all the implications and suffering that it brings. You can easily see that those who know this life as 'real' or non dream, or attachment, act in very deterministic, materialistic and fatalistic ways. They are not in deep samadhi before they decide to conduct their 'wars' and roll their dice on the stock exchange. Most likely it has been found that they are in adulterous, greed ridden and grievous modes of being. Such a shame though :smile: .. Ignorance is bliss. Sorry to sound a bit on the damning side there. Funny thing is about politicians etc. is that they believe in what they are doing ! lol ...im trying not to dig a hole here but i can feel myself slipping with a large shovel and pick in my hands !!!! hahaha

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Extract from Layayoga by Shyam Sundar Goswami

'Why has the universe been manifested?

Who can answer that, and if it is answered, who can understand it? When human power cannot produce it, when human intelligence cannot penetrate into it, how can that question, as such, be helpful. Human intelligence is too small to solve the mystery of the appearance of the universe. But there is the possibility of the human mind being in a state in which the image of the universe is not recorded, and the mind is in tune with something which is neither material nor mental, but the non-material-non-mental reality. In this reality there is no trace of the universe, of mind or of matter. Its realization is both mental and nonmental. The mind of our everyday life, which perceives the world, desires, feels pleasures and pains, thinks and wills, is not all, but only one aspect of our being, represented by I-consciousness around which is whirling the sensory world. Again, the mind in its other aspect completely closes its doors to the world and does not desire, think, and will, but realizes the Supreme Reality which is all, and besides which there is nothing else. Ultimately this unitary experience merges into a beingness which is itself the beingness of Supreme Consciousness.

'The Infinite Power Principle is the being of the Infinite Supreme Consciousness. In its purely power aspect, that is, power isolated from Supreme Consciousness, it is no longer infinite as it is no longer the being of the Infinite Consciousness. Thus it is as if a finite section of the infinite being in which the Infinite Consciousness appears as a finite being. This finiteness in infinity is the phenomenon of the mental and material universe. The universe is real when the Infinite Consciousness is veiled, but unreal when the finite being is no being as is "seen" in the Supreme Being.

'The finite being manifesting as the I-consciousness is nil at the infinite point, but this nothingness appears to be something when the supremeness of the Being is veiled. In other words, a phenomenon of Godlessness, which is in reality a nonbeing, emerges as a being.

But there is a possibility of arousing spirituality amidst mundaneness, which leads to liberation. Spirituality is the awakening of Godliness in consciousness. So spirituality is not something engrafted into man; it is in the highest aspect of his nature, through which man can manifest his God-being, which is his own being in its supreme aspect. Without spirituality man is a hopelessly restricted being moving aimlessly, with his lust and greed, in the mundane ocean.“

***

[hazada guess]

Does the idea that 'this place' is a Dream upset you?

I know for a fact that 'this place' is a lower vibration from the one we leave to incarnate.(I remember my birth).

[Uday_Advaita]

Does the thought that this place that you dwell in now, is a Dream bother you?
Why?
Does it seem impossible? Like, 'How could it be!?", as you knock on wood.:tongue:
Does it seem to negate everything that happens to you - that is done around you, that you do for others?

What is the fear or the agitation surrounding this?
Let's get rid of that pesky fear or even anger! :tongue:

Is it that you think this being a Dream makes thing worthless here? All your loves and wonderful experiences?
Or does it just boggle your logical mind? And kinda make you frustrated?
We have some very smart people here, maybe it could be tackled. :hug3:
OR maybe even a bit explained!

Rem - if this is really an Illusion ...it's a darn good one...or else it wouldn't be called an Illusion!! :tongue:





Dreams are to be enjoyed. Not bothered about
To experientially "KNOW" that this is an illusion is - Enlightenment.
You can neither Achieve it nor Order it.
So why not let it - Just be
Namaskar

[Crabby_zen]

It frustrates. That idea. Disingenuous. Lest I were to bite into hard candy in a dream, knowing such, at my age, the consequences of pain and a dental visit would not engender caution, but if I did not know, a more cautious course of action, licking. This dream thing goes too far when it was intended as a pointer, to look inward. Now it has become a dictum, and a litmus of sorts for a cosmic line in the sand to be crossed for freedom. Cracker Jack awakening. Yes. Hearing it again is like a dental visit, not frightening, just vexing, like the sound of the dentist drill.

[Crabby_zen]

It frustrates. That idea. Disingenuous. Lest I were to bite into hard candy in a dream, knowing such, at my age, the consequences of pain and a dental visit would not engender caution, but if I did not know, a more cautious course of action, licking. This dream thing goes too far when it was intended as a pointer, to look inward. Now it has become a dictum, and a litmus of sorts for a cosmic line in the sand to be crossed for freedom. Cracker Jack awakening. Yes. Hearing it again is like a dental visit, not frightening, just vexing, like the sound of the dentist drill.

[Crabby_zen]

It frustrates. That idea. Disingenuous. Lest I were to bite into hard candy in a dream, knowing such, at my age, the consequences of pain and a dental visit would not engender caution, but if I did not know, a more cautious course of action, licking. This dream thing goes too far when it was intended as a pointer, to look inward. Now it has become a dictum, and a litmus of sorts for a cosmic line in the sand to be crossed for freedom. Cracker Jack awakening. Yes. Hearing it again is like a dental visit, not frightening, just vexing, like the sound of the dentist drill.

[davidsun]

So why not let it - Just be
Namaskar
My Q backatacha is 'Why just let 'the flow' to 'simply' be as it is, if one has the psychospiritual capacity/adeptitude to 'learn' to 'guide' the flow to be more soul-salutary, that is. Some do and some don't - though maybe you 'fall' into the latter category, Uday, in which case the obvious answer to your Q (for you, that is) is "Yes, just let it be."

This 'prayer' comes to mind, if the former is the 'case': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

[davidsun]

It frustrates. That idea. Disingenuous. Lest I were to bite into hard candy in a dream, knowing such, at my age, the consequences of pain and a dental visit would not engender caution, but if I did not know, a more cautious course of action, licking. This dream thing goes too far when it was intended as a pointer, to look inward. Now it has become a dictum, and a litmus of sorts for a cosmic line in the sand to be crossed for freedom. Cracker Jack awakening. Yes. Hearing it again is like a dental visit, not frightening, just vexing, like the sound of the dentist drill.
LOL, You are 'right' in your 'critique' IMO, Crabby! Like a 'gun', any idea can be 'wielded' (by 'fools') to the detriment of Spirit-Life. I am reminded of people who 'selfishly' give to 'beggars' because they believe doing so will result in their having a more propitious future incarnation and/or 'heavenly' afterlife.

[davidsun]

Not at all ! Quite the opposite ! The idea that this is not a dream prevails mostly here in what we call life and with all the implications and suffering that it brings. You can easily see that those who know this life as 'real' or non dream, or attachment, act in very deterministic, materialistic and fatalistic ways. They are not in deep samadhi before they decide to conduct their 'wars' and roll their dice on the stock exchange. Most likely it has been found that they are in adulterous, greed ridden and grievous modes of being. Such a shame though :smile: .. Ignorance is bliss. Sorry to sound a bit on the damning side there. Funny thing is about politicians etc. is that they believe in what they are doing ! lol ...im trying not to dig a hole here but i can feel myself slipping with a large shovel and pick in my hands !!!! hahaha
Talk about 'negative' stereotyping! There are many who, because they regard Life as real (i.e. not just a 'dream), do a lot to improve the (soul relevant!) situations and conditions of others, and there are a lot of people who lazily 'finesse' (miss oiut on?) the challenge and opportunity of helping others as psychospiritually growing themselves because the 'blow' the 'reality' of people's conditions (including their own, I dare say!) as being just a 'dream' of no significant meaning and consequence.

Not that 'just' :smile: being a musician isn't extremely positively psychospiritually functional (for oneself and others!), mind you!

[inavalan]

Dreams are to be enjoyed. Not bothered about
To experientially "KNOW" that this is an illusion is - Enlightenment.
You can neither Achieve it nor Order it.
So why not let it - Just be
NamaskarI strongly disagree! Based on my direct experience.

[Joe Mc]

Talk about 'negative' stereotyping! There are many who, because they regard Life as real (i.e. not just a 'dream), do a lot to improve the (soul relevant!) situations and conditions of others, and there are a lot of people who lazily 'finesse' (miss oiut on?) the challenge and opportunity of helping others as psychospiritually growing themselves because the 'blow' the 'reality' of people's conditions (including their own, I dare say!) as being just a 'dream' of no significant meaning and consequence.

Not that 'just' :smile: being a musician isn't extremely positively psychospiritually functional (for oneself and others!), mind you!


I never said it wasn't a beautiful dream however and that possibility is what keeps people going. Unfortunately a-holeness has it's agents who proceed to turn what is undoubtedly a meaningful and beautiful dream into a nightmare.

[davidsun]

I never said it wasn't a beautiful dream however and that possibility is what keeps people going. Unfortunately a-holeness has it's agents who proceed to turn what is undoubtedly a meaningful and beautiful dream into a nightmare.
My 'point' in mentioning what I regarded as being 'negative' stereotyping of others was to share my 'dream' :smile: that your 'dream' was 'jaundiced'. Pertaining to the possibility that I am 'right' about his, from my book:

"If you aren’t aware of the attendant possibilities for negative ramification, you might simply expect our higher degree of Intelligence to be an unqualified blessing. However, the fact is, we each run the very real risk of sinking and drowning in a psychospiritual hell of our own making until we learn to float and swim in the boundless flow of consciousness that results from our developing to the point where we partake of ‘the fruit of the tree of knowledge’."

[Joe Mc]

My 'point' in mentioning what I regarded as being 'negative' stereotyping of others was to share my 'dream' :smile: that your 'dream' was 'jaundiced'. Pertaining to the possibility that I am 'right' about his, from my book:

"If you aren’t aware of the attendant possibilities for negative ramification, you might simply expect our higher degree of Intelligence to be an unqualified blessing. However, the fact is, we each run the very real risk of sinking and drowning in a psychospiritual hell of our own making until we learn to float and swim in the boundless flow of consciousness that results from our developing to the point where we partake of ‘the fruit of the tree of knowledge’."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGyQmH9NZcw

Is it a kind of a dream
Floating out on the tide
Following the river of death downstream
Oh, is it a dream?
There's a fog along the horizon
A strange glow in the sky
And nobody seems to know where it goes
And what does it mean?
Oh, is it a dream?
Bright eyes, burning like fire
Bright eyes, how can you close and fail?
How can the light that burned so brightly
Suddenly burn so pale?
Bright eyes
Is it a kind of a shadow
Reaching into the night
Wandering over the hills unseen
Or is it a dream?
There's a high wind in the trees
A cold sound in the air
And nobody ever knows when you go
And where do you start?
Oh, into the dark
Bright eyes,…

[Still_Waters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGyQmH9NZcw

Is it a kind of a dream
Floating out on the tide
Following the river of death downstream
Oh, is it a dream?
There's a fog along the horizon
A strange glow in the sky
And nobody seems to know where it goes
And what does it mean?
Oh, is it a dream?
Bright eyes, burning like fire
Bright eyes, how can you close and fail?
How can the light that burned so brightly
Suddenly burn so pale?
Bright eyes
Is it a kind of a shadow
Reaching into the night
Wandering over the hills unseen
Or is it a dream?
There's a high wind in the trees
A cold sound in the air
And nobody ever knows when you go
And where do you start?
Oh, into the dark
Bright eyes,…

That's a very beautiful thought-provoking post.

Are you aware that the Tibetan yogi, Milarepa, did a lot of dream-work? He realized that, eventually, he was able to do everything in the waking state (the Cosmic Dream :wink: ) that he could do in a lucid dream.

The Hermetic Principle is "As above, so below". The implications are mind-boggling.

Once again, thanks for sharing !

[davidsun]

Is it a kind of a dream
Floating out on the tide
Following the river of death downstream
Oh, is it a dream?
There's a fog along the horizon
A strange glow in the sky
And nobody seems to know where it goes
And what does it mean?
Oh, is it a dream?
Bright eyes, burning like fire
Bright eyes, how can you close and fail?
How can the light that burned so brightly
Suddenly burn so pale?
Bright eyes
Is it a kind of a shadow
Reaching into the night
Wandering over the hills unseen
Or is it a dream?
There's a high wind in the trees
A cold sound in the air
And nobody ever knows when you go
And where do you start?
Oh, into the dark
Bright eyes,…
Beautifully wonder-full poem!

[Joe Mc]

That's a very beautiful thought-provoking post.

Are you aware that the Tibetan yogi, Milarepa, did a lot of dream-work? He realized that, eventually, he was able to do everything in the waking state (the Cosmic Dream :wink: ) that he could do in a lucid dream.

The Hermetic Principle is "As above, so below". The implications are mind-boggling.

Once again, thanks for sharing !

Yes I came across Milarepa's dream yoga along the way but haven't studied it intensively at all. Thank you for sharing. I'm sure i've read snippets of his wisdom along the way, dotted in different books. Thank you for your inspiration and of course ive heard it said that the veil between worlds is thin. At certain times, in certain places and with certain people too the veil become diaphanous so as to give us a glimpse. Often the glimpse is through tears and the opening of the heart seems to happen when tears of compassion are present. This song has always suggested to me the beauty that is behind the veil and perhaps the beautiful struggle for life that we all show here. Bless and thank you once more for your affirming post.


and so it is with the beautiful words and melody of that song suggesting as it does the breaking down if you like, the melting or the merging of worlds

[Joe Mc]

Beautifully wonder-full poem!

It is indeed David :smile: Quite wonderful.

[Still_Waters]

Yes I came across Milarepa's dream yoga along the way but haven't studied it intensively at all. Thank you for sharing. I'm sure i've read snippets of his wisdom along the way, dotted in different books. Thank you for your inspiration and of course ive heard it said that the veil between worlds is thin. At certain times, in certain places and with certain people too the veil become diaphanous so as to give us a glimpse. Often the glimpse is through tears and the opening of the heart seems to happen when tears of compassion are present. This song has always suggested to me the beauty that is behind the veil and perhaps the beautiful struggle for life that we all show here. Bless and thank you once more for your affirming post.


and so it is with the beautiful words and melody of that song suggesting as it does the breaking down if you like, the melting or the merging of worlds

I found the biography of Milarepa by his disciple Rechung to be very illuminating. It's a very good read. My "conscious sleep" "dream yoga" was inspired by Tibetan Buddhism though it is obviously described in other traditions as well.

I agree that the "veil between the worlds is thin" and one can pierce that veil in "utter emptiness and complete silence (including mental activity)" as per the Taoist masters and others. I was fortunate to have spent time with a Taoist master in Chengdu China in which all communication was done in silence which eliminates the inadequacy of words. Similarly, telepathically, communication with the spirit worlds can also be established as the veil between the worlds is indeed very thin.

[Dargor]

I wouldn't give a baboon's buttocks if it really was just a dream somehow. But the fact that it seems more like a nightmare kinda bothers me.

[guthrio]

I wouldn't give a baboon's buttocks if it really was just a dream somehow. But the fact that it seems more like a nightmare kinda bothers me.

SlayerOfLight

... It's been awhile since I had the pleasure of corresponding with "thee, thyself, and thy"!

Since then I think I have found some information that explains why the answer to the OP's question can be both dream and nightmare, baboon's buttocks notwithstanding. :icon_eek:

.... I also hope this helps answer your signature message's assertion that "we just get what we get".

Understanding this, and the reference it came from, changed my life into the dream it is today. Perhaps it can help you as well.

Blessings to "thee, thyself, and thy!":smile:

...and perhaps even to sharing some beers over our respective stories, someday...(with all of you) :smile:

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1587809&postcount=79

[davidsun]

Understanding this ... changed my life into the dream it is today. Perhaps it can help you as well.

Blessings to "thee, thyself, and thy!":smile:

...and perhaps even to sharing some beers over our respective stories, someday...(with all of you) :smile:

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1587809&postcount=79
Relating to the story accessed via the link that the above link leads to:

Let me expose the faulty logic in Guthrio's statement here:

'Dreaming' (i.e. 'imagining' and 'believing' what is imagined to be possible) is a way of focusing one's creative power, and thus a way of creating.

That doesn't mean that what is thereby actually created and so really experienced is just a 'dream'.

[guthrio]

Relating to the story accessed via the link that the above link leads to:

Let me expose the faulty logic in Guthrio's statement here:

'Dreaming' (i.e. 'imagining' and 'believing' what is imagined to be possible) is a way of focusing one's creative power, and thus a way of creating.

That doesn't mean that what is thereby actually created and so really experienced is just a 'dream'.

Davidsun,

I appreciate your input, insofar as you may believe it helpful to anyone's else's understanding of my intent.

If you actually imagine you are being helpful, I heartily encourage you to keep up the good work.

I know I will, as I so choose.

[davidsun]

'Dreaming' (i.e. 'imagining' and 'believing' what is imagined to be possible) is a way of focusing one's creative power, and thus a way of creating.

That doesn't mean that what is thereby actually created and so really experienced is just a 'dream'.
Oh, I forgot to mention another logical complication which attends the "You can dream/imagine up anything you really want into become 'real'" hypothesis:

Imagine, as was probably the case IMO, both Hitler and Churchill each 'dreaming' of 'victory' for their side in WWII.

Ooops! Of course you could imagine both/each getting what they wanted in 'alternate' universes - is that what you think actually happened, Guthrio?

[davidsun]

Davidsun,

I appreciate your input, insofar as you may believe it helpful to anyone's else's understanding of my intent.
I imagine/believe it may be helpful to some but a real imagination-balloon 'popping' downer for others. You appreciate that?


If you actually imagine you are being helpful, I heartily encourage you to keep up the good work.
Hmmm, you think I believe that's what you dream/wish I continue to do? But you know I don't need your 'encouragement' in order to keep up 'the work', don't you?. I can dream/wish to continue to keep up ''the work' by myself (with the help of the same 'God' as the One you subscribe to).


I know I will, as I so choose.
Fine with me if that's what you really dream/wish to do - or not.

[davidsun]

This real life article highlights the fact (IMO it is a fact) that this 'dreaming' business ain't 'simple' - at least not always, and certainly not in everyone's case:

https://www.insider.com/india-tiktok-sameer-king-coronavirus-tests-positive-madhya-pradesh-2020-4

[guthrio]

Davidsun,

...for all of the above contributions that you have taken the time to provide, accept my thanks.

....and continued good wishes to you and to whomever else may consider them useful, if they so choose.

Again, keep up the good work!

[davidsun]

Davidsun,

...for all of the above contributions that you have taken the time to provide, accept my thanks.

....and continued good wishes to you and to whomever else may consider them useful, if they so choose.

Again, keep up the good work!
May your 'dream' in this regard 'come true'.

[guthrio]

May your 'dream' in this regard 'come true'.

....now you're talkin! :hug3:

[anthony c]

Hi everyone :)

I have my theories that life/this place is a dream or similar to the dream theory but it's only theories. Has anyone really woke up from this dream reality like into another reality or do you just realize this is a dream and your awake so to speak??

[JustASimpleGuy]

Hi everyone :)

I have my theories that life/this place is a dream or similar to the dream theory but it's only theories. Has anyone really woke up from this dream reality like into another reality or do you just realize this is a dream and your awake so to speak??

Have you ever had a lucid dream? When while still in dreaming reality you attain waking consciousness? You realize you are not the dream character but the dreamer?

I suggest realization is the exact same thing. While in waking reality you realize you are not the waking mind-body but the Source projecting the waking mind-body.

[anthony c]

Have you ever had a lucid dream? When while still in dreaming reality you attain waking consciousness? You realize you are not the dream character but the dreamer?

I suggest realization is the exact same thing. While in waking reality you realize you are not the waking mind-body but the Source projecting the waking mind-body.

That is what i have realized too but a little bit different. I realized that i am not the body or the mind but i am awareness that is "consciousness" or conscious of a world, body and mind and the world, body and mind is inside my consciousness. That is like a lucid dream yes. :icon_eek: :D

So you might ask, is awareness and consciousness the same thing? To me consciousness is a subject aware of object's or it's the space filled with objects that you(subject/awareness) are aware of but awareness is the thing you use and to me that is what you really are, you are Awareness itself. So consciousness is dualistic in nature and awareness is non dual.

So with this realization it's like the whole "world" is inside your consciousness or your consciousness = the world = dream :)

The thing i am wondering is does it go deeper than that like can you wake up to another reality which to me is just your consciousness becoming a new space with new objects in your consciousness that you as awareness wakes up to.

So is there another dream like a dream within a dream or is this the only dream itself and all there is??

[Iamit]

That is what i have realized too but a little bit different. I realized that i am not the body or the mind but i am awareness that is "consciousness" or conscious of a world, body and mind and the world, body and mind is inside my consciousness. That is like a lucid dream yes. :icon_eek: :D

So you might ask, is awareness and consciousness the same thing? To me consciousness is a subject aware of object's or it's the space filled with objects that you(subject/awareness) are aware of but awareness is the thing you use and to me that is what you really are, you are Awareness itself. So consciousness is dualistic in nature and awareness is non dual.

So with this realization it's like the whole "world" is inside your consciousness or your consciousness = the world = dream :)

The thing i am wondering is does it go deeper than that like can you wake up to another reality which to me is just your consciousness becoming a new space with new objects in your consciousness that you as awareness wakes up to.

So is there another dream like a dream within a dream or is this the only dream itself and all there is??

Niz said "Why go beyond the dream, you will only find more dream" :). Nevertheless it seems there can be a resonance (surprisingly) with aspects of the dream, such as All is One, that can end the search with another dream that the separate person has become enlightened.:)

[davidsun]

So is there another dream like a dream within a dream or is this the only dream itself and all there is??
Niz said "Why go beyond the dream, you will only find more dream" :). Nevertheless it seems there can be a resonance (surprisingly) with aspects of the dream, such as All is One, that can end the search with another dream that the separate person has become enlightened.:)
Hi-Ho journeyman Anthony! :smile:

In contrapoint to Iamit's saying, I (davidsun) say: whatever you see/dream (at any given point) as being 'your' 'world' is only a (relatively) small part of what's really 'happening'.

From my treatise: "Peeps not infrequently ensconced in grotesquely demoniacal (as seen by anyone who isn’t similarly deluded, that is!) box‑smugness*wherefrom they regard and relate to others who don’t live in the same ‘box’ in condescending (hence ultimately Love‑and-Joy-in-relation-to-and-with-others diminishing!) ways. To make sure such an attitude doesn’t ‘infect’ you, especially when and as you hear others reinforcingly describing ‘enlightenment’ their experiences in ‘glowing’ terms, be sure to always remind yourself of the fact that every soul’s ‘journey’ is unique and that said evolutionary journey never ends. Infinity extends in every direction. The (dreamed!) projection that there is some kind of ‘ultimate’, or ‘greatest’ possible, realization beyond which there is nothing more or different to realize is delusional!"

Those who think they have become completely 'enlightened' and that there is nothing more for them to dream/know are choosing (for 'stupid' 'reasons' IMO) a kind of 'death'. Why do I say that? Because Life (God, Brahman, whatever you want to call 'It') is Creativity Itself! :wav:

From my book: "I have deliberately not used phrases like ‘reaching Godhead’ and ‘getting to Heaven’ [the parallel being 'becoming' enlightened), though what I am advocating is exactly that, because they erroneously imply an end‑destination. In terms of Life, this is a false concept. In case, having found Life’s mode of flux upsetting, you are one who has fallen prey to the temptation to set your sights on an illusion of some sort of utopian finale, let me disabuse you of the notion. The best, ultimately most glorious and joyful attainment is not a place or state that one arrives at and stays in. Staticity of any kind, if prolonged, leads to stagnation. In terms of Creativity, it is death! The ecstatic ‘peak’ such terms refer to is really not a final attainment or accomplishment, as many [B]naively believe. Rather, as the words ‘Eternal Life’ clearly indicate, it is ever-ongoing creative process."

:cool:

[anthony c]

Hi-Ho journeyman Anthony! :smile:

In contrapoint to Iamit's saying, I (davidsun) say: whatever you see/dream (at any given point) as being 'your' 'world' is only a (relatively) small part of what's really 'happening'.

From my treatise: "Peeps not infrequently ensconced in grotesquely demoniacal (as seen by anyone who isn’t similarly deluded, that is!) box‑smugness*wherefrom they regard and relate to others who don’t live in the same ‘box’ in condescending (hence ultimately Love‑and-Joy-in-relation-to-and-with-others diminishing!) ways. To make sure such an attitude doesn’t ‘infect’ you, especially when and as you hear others reinforcingly describing ‘enlightenment’ their experiences in ‘glowing’ terms, be sure to always remind yourself of the fact that every soul’s ‘journey’ is unique and that said evolutionary journey never ends. Infinity extends in every direction. The (dreamed!) projection that there is some kind of ‘ultimate’, or ‘greatest’ possible, realization beyond which there is nothing more or different to realize is delusional!"

Those who think they have become completely 'enlightened' and that there is nothing more for them to dream/know are choosing (for 'stupid' 'reasons' IMO) a kind of 'death'. Why do I say that? Because Life (God, Brahman, whatever you want to call 'It') is Creativity Itself! :wav:

From my book: "I have deliberately not used phrases like ‘reaching Godhead’ and ‘getting to Heaven’ [the parallel being 'becoming' enlightened), though what I am advocating is exactly that, because they erroneously imply an end‑destination. In terms of Life, this is a false concept. In case, having found Life’s mode of flux upsetting, you are one who has fallen prey to the temptation to set your sights on an illusion of some sort of utopian finale, let me disabuse you of the notion. The best, ultimately most glorious and joyful attainment is not a place or state that one arrives at and stays in. Staticity of any kind, if prolonged, leads to stagnation. In terms of Creativity, it is death! The ecstatic ‘peak’ such terms refer to is really not a final attainment or accomplishment, as many [B]naively believe. Rather, as the words ‘Eternal Life’ clearly indicate, it is ever-ongoing creative process."

:cool:

Hey Davidsun.

I am still on this journey and far from enlightened or maybe it's just a concept and i have realized the last few months that it's not about the destination but about the journey. Enlightenment is a journey and yes it never ends or does it :)

[davidsun]

I am still on this journey and far from enlightened or maybe it's just a concept and i have realized the last few months that it's not about the destination but about the journey. Enlightenment is a journey and yes it never ends or does it :)
Yes, it never ends - that is, unless you thhink, feel and believe and so act as though it will, in which case it very well might! :icon_eek:

The second chapter of my treatise (https://davidsundom.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/6/5/7765474/what_jesus_meant_ch2.pdf) elucidates this.

High-Five, Anthony :hug3:

[anthony c]

Yes, it never ends - that is, unless you thhink, feel and believe and so act as though it will, in which case it very well might! :icon_eek:

The second chapter of my treatise (https://davidsundom.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/6/5/7765474/what_jesus_meant_ch2.pdf) elucidates this.

High-Five, Anthony :hug3:

Big High-five Davidsun!!!

I read you mention the godhead, could you explain what you mean or what is meant by that. I have heard it a few times but do not understand what they mean by Godhead.

Thanks

[davidsun]

Big High-five Davidsun!!!

I read you mention the godhead, could you explain what you mean or what is meant by that. I have heard it a few times but do not understand what they mean by Godhead.

Thanks
IMO, what people think of and so mean when they reference "Godhead" as being some kind of 'ultimate' 'Reality', which strikes me as being an oxymoron because what is referenced as being 'Reality' (i.e. the 'Dream') is really:smile: no different than your 'journey'. IOW, "Reality', (including what is conceptualized as "Godhead"), is ever-journey-evolving.

:cool:

[anthony c]

oh i see, okay thank you David :)

[davidsun]

oh i see, okay thank you David :)
........ :hug3: .......

[iamthat]

I am still on this journey and far from enlightened or maybe it's just a concept and i have realized the last few months that it's not about the destination but about the journey. Enlightenment is a journey and yes it never ends or does it :)

A good question.

The term "spiritual enlightenment" is almost meaningless as there are so many concepts about what it is or isn't.

Some believe that the spiritual journey for a human being ends with enlightenment and that is it, complete for all eternity.

Others believe that "enlightenment" marks the end of one stage of the journey and the beginning of a new stage on a higher turn of the spiritual spiral.

I have come to believe that for a human being, the spiritual journey is marked by a series of initiations into greater states of reality. The culmination of this is that we leave the human kingdom behind and move on to a higher sphere, where we are just a small cog in a very big wheel.

It is all belief, but we are assured that one day we will find out for ourselves.

Peace

[davidsun]

A good question.

The term "spiritual enlightenment" is almost meaningless as there are so many concepts about what it is or isn't.

Some believe that the spiritual journey for a human being ends with enlightenment and that is it, complete for all eternity.

Others believe that "enlightenment" marks the end of one stage of the journey and the beginning of a new stage on a higher turn of the spiritual spiral.

I have come to believe that for a human being, the spiritual journey is marked by a series of initiations into greater states of reality. The culmination of this is that we leave the human kingdom behind and move on to a higher sphere, where we are just a small cog in a very big wheel.

It is all belief, but we are assured that one day we will find out for ourselves.

Peace
That's what I believe too - :thumbsup: iamthat - albeit I think each of us is already "a small cog in a very big wheel". From my treatise:

"Actually, Jesus’ vision was even more penetrating and far-seeing than even the statement “The Father is in me, and I in him” implies. Presaging that wave-ripples of awareness and spiritual espousal of what he ‘saw’ and articulated would spread and become so mutually validating and reinforcing as to eventually peak in a worldwide crescendo, continuing to identify with and so speak in the ‘persona’ of The Entity of all Creation, he then went on to say, “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”*(John*14:20) Such statement cannot possibly be made sense of using simple, linear A→B→C logic, of course, but how aspects of the identities of personal and transpersonal beings (beingnesses, really) can operationally be ‘in’ one another becomes readily understandable when and as one realizes, as more and more people are now doing, that our existential reality is a matrixially interwoven, dynamically living (that is, creatively growing, developing, evolving, etc.) system wherein the output of every personal and transpersonal component of said system functions as input in relation to any and all other components which, because of constitutional similarities and/or complementary affiliations, are vibrationally ‘attuned’ thereto, such that the process of every singular or compound element thereof, ‘from the least to the greatest’, ultimately directly or indirectly affects and is affected by the process of every other aspect of Life."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg6xLyBBJ_g :biggrin:

[iamthat]

That's what I believe too - :thumbsup: iamthat - albeit I think each of us is already "a small cog in a very big wheel". From my treatise:

"Actually, Jesus’ vision was even more penetrating and far-seeing than even the statement “The Father is in me, and I in him” implies. Presaging that wave-ripples of awareness and spiritual espousal of what he ‘saw’ and articulated would spread and become so mutually validating and reinforcing as to eventually peak in a worldwide crescendo, continuing to identify with and so speak in the ‘persona’ of The Entity of all Creation, he then went on to say, “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”*(John*14:20) Such statement cannot possibly be made sense of using simple, linear A→B→C logic, of course, but how aspects of the identities of personal and transpersonal beings (beingnesses, really) can operationally be ‘in’ one another becomes readily understandable when and as one realizes, as more and more people are now doing, that our existential reality is a matrixially interwoven, dynamically living (that is, creatively growing, developing, evolving, etc.) system wherein the output of every personal and transpersonal component of said system functions as input in relation to any and all other components which, because of constitutional similarities and/or complementary affiliations, are vibrationally ‘attuned’ thereto, such that the process of every singular or compound element thereof, ‘from the least to the greatest’, ultimately directly or indirectly affects and is affected by the process of every other aspect of Life."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg6xLyBBJ_g :biggrin:

Indeed. Although perhaps it could be said that we are small cogs in a small wheel. Whereas individuals such as the Christ or the Buddha became big cogs in this small wheel, but much larger wheels lie ahead.

Perhaps all Creation is wheels within wheels.

Peace

[davidsun]

Indeed. Although perhaps it could be said that we are small cogs in a small wheel. Whereas individuals such as the Christ or the Buddha became big cogs in this small wheel, but much larger wheels lie ahead.

Perhaps all Creation is wheels within wheels.

Peace
They are just 'older' brothers, not 'bigger' 'cogs', IMO.

And, as far as your byline of 'Peace' is concerned, I wish to point out that The Bhagavad Gita, was composed in response to the prospect of and advocates[b] righteous 'War'! Also that Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send 'peace', but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Where is your 'Peace' blessing(?) coming from? The 'that' that you 'i'dentify with and promote is [B]not the same as my 'that', dude! :icon_eek:

[HITESH SHAH]

They are just 'older' brothers, not 'bigger' 'cogs', IMO.

And, as far as your byline of 'Peace' is concerned, I wish to point out that The Bhagavad Gita, was composed in response to the prospect of and advocates[b] righteous 'War'! Also that Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send 'peace', but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Where is your 'Peace' blessing(?) coming from? The 'that' that you 'i'dentify with and promote is [B]not the same as my 'that', dude! :icon_eek:

I think there is no apparent contradiction . Message of these bigger cogs is that u must wage war against obstinate,obdurate ,mighty, powerful but wrong people ( but definition & nature of war is another topic by itself ) and you must use more explanation , persuasion , exhortation , mercy , forgiveness to the mistakes of smaller , amenable people and relatively harmless people .

That's my take . And of course we can disagree on this .

[davidsun]

I think there is no apparent contradiction . Message of these bigger cogs is that u must wage war against obstinate,obdurate ,mighty, powerful but wrong people ( but definition & nature of war is another topic by itself ) and you must use more explanation , persuasion , exhortation , mercy , forgiveness to the mistakes of smaller , amenable people and relatively harmless people .

That's my take . And of course we can disagree on this .
I do disagree, and strongly so! My comment related to the PRO FORMA use of "Peace" as a presumed to be 'holy' benediction - especially in relation to people who one has expressed disagreement with, so as 'apparently' 'kindly' :icon_eek: respond to them even though one more or less blithely just dismisses their propositions.

Like 'Christians' who 'bless' those who they regard as being misguided 'sinners' - like 'gays' who wish to 'marry', for just one instance.

[iamthat]

And, as far as your byline of 'Peace' is concerned, I wish to point out that The Bhagavad Gita, was composed in response to the prospect of and advocates[b] righteous 'War'! Also that Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send 'peace', but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Where is your 'Peace' blessing(?) coming from? The 'that' that you 'i'dentify with and promote is [B]not the same as my 'that', dude! :icon_eek:

Many mantras from the Vedas and the Upanishads end with the words OM Shanti Shanti Shanti.

Shanti is the Sanskrit word for peace. The three shantis may represent peace in mind, peace in speech and peace in the physical body. Or individual peace, collective peace and universal peace.

In Yoga, OM Shanti may be used as a greeting or a parting salutation. So I simply use the word Peace as a parting salutation at the end of a post.

OM Shanti Shanti Shanti

[davidsun]

Many mantras from the Vedas and the Upanishads end with the words OM Shanti Shanti Shanti.

Shanti is the Sanskrit word for peace. The three shantis may represent peace in mind, peace in speech and peace in the physical body. Or individual peace, collective peace and universal peace.

In Yoga, OM Shanti may be used as a greeting or a parting salutation. So I simply use the word Peace as a parting salutation at the end of a post.

OM Shanti Shanti Shanti
That just means that my 'point' (about the Reality of Life) applies to the authors of those mantras and greeters as well.

Let me repeat what I've already articulated about the true nature of Life and ask you to seriously consider it on the merits of its logic instead of just sanctimoniously(?)/smugly(?) dismissing it on the basis of the number of 'respected' people who have thought like you still do:

"Assertions to the contrary don’t alter this truth a jot, no matter how authoritative or persuasive the person who makes them. Think about it: Life depends on there being an ever-evolving diversity of different and, therefore, in one or another way competing, sets of feelings and perceptions regarding what is and isn’t essential. If everything was absolutely consonant, there would be no progression in terms of learning and development, these being a function of the creative exercise of Intelligence and the intelligent exercise of Creativity. Existence, for it could not even be called Life in such case, would just be a round of the same set of symphonic notes endlessly repeating, because everything would then simply operate like clockwork."

IMO, 'Peace', like 'Santa Claus', is a 'childish' feel-good 'fantasy' on the part of peeps who 'wish' that Life on Earth could be and 'hope' that it someday will generally 'operate' that way. This is not what Jesus 'taught' (as I recently quoted). nor what Krishna said and 'revealed' to Arjuna (in Ch.11 of The Bhagavad Gita):

"Whenever spirituality decays and materialism is rampant, then, O*Arjuna, I reincarnate Myself!

To protect the righteous, to destroy the wicked and to establish the kingdom of God, I am reborn from age to age."

and

"Arjuna said: O almighty God! I see in Thee the powers of Nature, the various creatures of the world, the Progenitor on his lotus throne, the Sages and the shining angels.

I see Thee, infinite in form, with, as it were, faces, eyes and limbs everywhere; no beginning, no middle, no end; O Thou Lord of the Universe, Whose Form is universal!

I see thee with the crown, the sceptre and the discus; a blaze of splendour. Scarce can I gaze on thee, so radiant thou art, glowing like the blazing fire, brilliant as the sun, immeasurable.

Imperishable art Thou, the Sole One worthy to be known, the priceless Treasure-house of the universe, the immortal Guardian of the Life Eternal, the Spirit Everlasting.

Without beginning, without middle and without end, infinite in power, Thine arms all-embracing, the sun and moon Thine eyes, Thy face beaming with the fire of sacrifice, flooding the whole universe with light.

Alone thou fillest all the quarters of the sky, earth and heaven, and the regions between. O Almighty Lord! Seeing Thy marvellous and awe-inspiring Form, the spheres tremble with fear.

The troops of celestial beings enter into Thee, some invoking Thee in fear, with folded palms; the Great Seers and Adepts sing hymns to Thy Glory, saying `All Hail.’

The Vital Forces, the Major stars, Fire, Earth, Air, Sky, Sun, Heaven, Moon and Planets; the Angels, the Guardians of the Universe, the divine Healers, the Winds, the Fathers, the Heavenly Singers; and hosts of Mammon-worshippers, demons as well as saints, are amazed.

Seeing Thy stupendous Form, O Most Mighty, with its myriad faces, its innumerable eyes and limbs and terrible jaws, I*myself and all the worlds are overwhelmed with awe.

When I see Thee, touching the Heavens, glowing with colour, with open mouth and wide open fiery eyes, I am terrified. O My Lord! My courage and peace of mind desert me.

When I see Thy mouths with their fearful jaws like glowing fires at the dissolution of creation, I lose all sense of place; I find no rest. Be merciful, O Lord in whom this universe abides!

All these sons of Dhritarashtra, with the hosts of princes, Bheeshma, Drona and Karna, as well as the other warrior chiefs belonging to our side;

I see them all rushing headlong into Thy mouths, with terrible tusks, horrible to behold. Some are mangled between thy jaws, with their heads crushed to atoms.

As rivers in flood surge furiously to the ocean, so these heroes, the greatest among men, fling themselves into Thy flaming mouths.

As moths fly impetuously to the flame only to be killed, so these men rush into Thy mouths to court their own destruction.

Thou seemest to swallow up the worlds, to lap them in flame. Thy glory fills the universe. Thy fierce rays beat down upon it irresistibly.

Tell me then who Thou art, that wearest this dreadful Form? I bow before Thee, O Mighty One! Have mercy, I pray, and let me see Thee as Thou wert at first. I do not know what Thou intendest.

Lord Shri Krishna replied: I have shown myself to thee as the Destroyer who lays waste the world and whose purpose is destruction. In spite of thy efforts, all these warriors gathered for battle shall not escape death.

Then gird up thy loins and conquer. Subdue thy foes and enjoy the kingdom in prosperity. I have already doomed them. Be thou my instrument, Arjuna!

Drona and Bheeshma, Jayadratha and Karna, and other brave warriors – I have condemned them all. Destroy them; fight and fear not. Thy foes shall be crushed.”

:icon_eek:

[davidsun]

IMO, 'Peace', like 'Santa Claus', is a 'childish' feel-good 'fantasy' on the part of peeps ...
You do see what's now socially/politically and environmentally/ecologically going on and so will soon/inevitably be the 'shape' of human affairs all across the planet in the near future, don't you, iamthat?

Yours truly, iamthat2! :icon_eek:

[iamthat]

Let me repeat what I've already articulated about the true nature of Life and ask you to seriously consider it on the merits of its logic instead of just sanctimoniously(?)/smugly(?) dismissing it on the basis of the number of 'respected' people who have thought like you still do:

IMO, 'Peace', like 'Santa Claus', is a 'childish' feel-good 'fantasy' on the part of peeps who 'wish' that Life on Earth could be and 'hope' that it someday will generally 'operate' that way. This is not what Jesus 'taught' (as I recently quoted). nor what Krishna said and 'revealed' to Arjuna (in Ch.11 of The Bhagavad Gita):

Hi David

It seems somewhat ironic that you tell me not to dismiss what you say "on the basis of the number of 'respected' people who have thought like you still do" and then back up your words with quotes from the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita. This sounds rather like dismissing what I say on the basis of the number of those respected people who think like you do. :smile:

Is the desire for peace on Earth really a childish feel-good fantasy? Or is it a vision of the long-term destiny of humanity when humanity has evolved enough to rise above its selfishness and greed?

In the meantime, all we can do is find peace within ourselves. Each one of us has a centre of stillness and peace which remains untouched by our circumstances. Let us find that centre and rest there. This is not a childish fantasy but a powerful reality.

Peace.

[JustASimpleGuy]

Hi David

It seems somewhat ironic that you tell me not to dismiss what you say "on the basis of the number of 'respected' people who have thought like you still do" and then back up your words with quotes from the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita. This sounds rather like dismissing what I say on the basis of the number of those respected people who think like you do. :smile:

Is the desire for peace on Earth really a childish feel-good fantasy? Or is it a vision of the long-term destiny of humanity when humanity has evolved enough to rise above its selfishness and greed?

In the meantime, all we can do is find peace within ourselves. Each one of us has a centre of stillness and peace which remains untouched by our circumstances. Let us find that centre and rest there. This is not a childish fantasy but a powerful reality.

Peace.

The most fundamental and important change is the change one willfully makes to one's self. As a matter of fact it's the only change we can be certain of so long as the effort is an earnest one. In other words change one's self and let the ripples spread across the pond.

So yeah, I agree. Bring serenity to one's inner world and let it manifest outward in an organic way. If everyone did that, even just a measurable percentage, the world would be a much better place.

[davidsun]

Hi David

It seems somewhat ironic that you tell me not to dismiss what you say "on the basis of the number of 'respected' people who have thought like you still do" and then back up your words with quotes from the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita. This sounds rather like dismissing what I say on the basis of the number of those respected people who think like you do. :smile:
I only quote those sources (which I admit are in a 'minority' in terms of numbers) to show you that many people see things differently than the way you do. I do not mean to claim that the way they (or I) see and think about things is necessarily correct. I would be happy to discuss what the Reality of The Flow of Life actually is, but this requires that you acknowledge the possible validity of views and evaluations other than yours. Your attempt to 'reverse' my argument so as to discredit my argument is shameful in my opinion.

Now, I honestly/directly ask you, are you saying that you actually believe that what the Vedic and Upanishadic sources you cite say in support of your 'attitude' and 'position' vis a vis 'Peace' are actually 'truer' descriptions and responses to possibilties currently unfolding in the context of our conjoint Reality than the sayings of Jesus and The Bhagavad Gita?

Let's talk explain and talk about our respective but differing views of the truth about the Reality of The Flow of Life which we are both part of, shall we?

Explain to me what and how you see 'Peace' as an implementable (both necessary and desirable) 'ideal' if that is what you think and would like to do.

[inavalan]

Not to pick sides, but truth isn't decided democratically. The truth isn't in the number of those who agree. History and common sense actually show the opposite.

There might be some guru or a dogma that is closest to the truth, but how do you know which? You can't know.

The closest you can get to the truth is by looking for it inside your mind with no bias. You can't reason it out.

[davidsun]

So yeah, I agree. Bring serenity to one's inner world and let it manifest outward in an organic way. If everyone did that, even just a measurable percentage, the world would be a much better place.
I agree with this JASG. Except I would call it 'calm', not 'peace'. in relation to everyone and everything in one's Life-'orbit'. And I would emphasize that there will be no or very little outer 'peace' in the context of the storm that is now coming 'on'.

I reiterate to Iamthat, or just others in case he can't or just won't 'hear' me', that I quite clearly said "Assertions to the contrary don’t alter [the] truth a jot, no matter how authoritative or persuasive the person who makes them. Think about it: Life depends on there being an ever-evolving diversity of different and, therefore, in one or another way competing, sets of feelings and perceptions regarding what is and isn’t essential ..."

[davidsun]

Not to pick sides, but truth isn't decided democratically. The truth isn't in the number of those who agree. History and common sense actually show the opposite.

There might be some guru or a dogma that is closest to the truth, but how do you know which? You can't know.

The closest you can get to the truth is by looking for it inside your mind with no bias. You can't reason it out.
:thumbsup: Inavalan ... except I would say that one can reason it out - 'correctly' :smile: if one has no 'bias'!

[JustASimpleGuy]

I agree with this JASG. Except I would call it 'calm', not 'peace'. in relation to everyone and everything in one's Life-'orbit'. And I would emphasize that there will be no or very little outer 'peace' in the context of the storm that is now coming 'on'.

I reiterate to Iamthat, or just others in case he can't or just won't 'hear' me', that I quite clearly said "Assertions to the contrary don’t alter [the] truth a jot, no matter how authoritative or persuasive the person who makes them. Think about it: Life depends on there being an ever-evolving diversity of different and, therefore, in one or another way competing, sets of feelings and perceptions regarding what is and isn’t essential ..."

If I'm at peace with myself, I'm at peace with the world. The problem out "there" is too many people aren't at peace with themselves, and instead of working to that end they work at bending the world to their will. That is they will not or cannot acknowledge the true source of their suffering and address it at the source, hence they lash out at the world, attempting to change it to their liking instead of changing themselves.

Instead of their inner tranquility manifesting outward it's their inner suffering manifesting out into the world.

[HITESH SHAH]

I do disagree, and strongly so! My comment related to the PRO FORMA use of "Peace" as a presumed to be 'holy' benediction - especially in relation to people who one has expressed disagreement with, so as 'apparently' 'kindly' :icon_eek: respond to them even though one more or less blithely just dismisses their propositions.

Like 'Christians' who 'bless' those who they regard as being misguided 'sinners' - like 'gays' who wish to 'marry', for just one instance.

I understand your disagreement of proforma use of peace ie peace of meek , selfish , ignorant , diffident , fearful , weak, powerless ,without base in reality . In fact I agree in this and there appears no disagreement .

Still however whether use of word 'peace' in signature is proforma (like what I imagine above ) or not can not be concluded by me . Only the person himself/herself can gauge that better. I am open to either possibility depending on facts . But certainly I don't have anything to comment on that aspect.

And I certainly keep 'peace' as a very highly venerated object side by side readiness to fight when the need so arises .

[iamthat]

Now, I honestly/directly ask you, are you saying that you actually believe that what the Vedic and Upanishadic sources you cite say in support of your 'attitude' and 'position' vis a vis 'Peace' are actually 'truer' descriptions and responses to possibilties currently unfolding in the context of our conjoint Reality than the sayings of Jesus and The Bhagavad Gita?
The Bhagavad Gita can be read on many levels, and the entire battlefield of Kurukshetra can be considered as the inner battle within each one of us as we strive to overcome our lower nature. We are each Arjuna, facing that within which is familiar and loved, and being told by Krishna (Spirit) that we have to overcome all of it, so do not be attached to any of it.

And if you are going to quote Christ in the Bible then why choose just one quote? There are plenty of others you could choose.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Matthew 5.9)

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14.27)

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16.33)

To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.(Luke 1.79)

It seems silly to get into a quoting match, because we can always find quotes to support any position we take.

Explain to me what and how you see 'Peace' as an implementable (both necessary and desirable) 'ideal' if that is what you think and would like to do.
Peace is not just a mental ideal. Peace does not require implementing through some kind of action. Peace lies within each one of us. We just have to find it and then rest there. Until we find peace within ourselves then we are part of the planet's problems, not part of the solution.

Peace

[davidsun]

Peace is not just a mental ideal. Peace does not require implementing through some kind of action. Peace lies within each one of us. We just have to find it and then rest there. Until we find peace within ourselves then we are part of the planet's problems, not part of the solution.
Yes to what you say in your post, iamthat, BUTT :biggrin: then there's the issue (which I am attempting to raise here, but which you are apparently, presumably for your own purposes, willfully deaf to) of appropriateness in terms of time and place, to wit: "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

I 'accuse' :smile: you of grinding your own 'axe' in relation to the issue of consequence, by way of including 'Peace' as a PRO FORMA means of 'oneupsmanship' in this forum-discussion (which includes honest/valid expressions of disagreement) IMO.

[inavalan]

:thumbsup: Inavalan ... except I would say that one can reason it out - 'correctly' :smile: if one has no 'bias'!
What do you think is more useful to a person: intellect or intuition? What is worse for a person to be: mediocre or ignorant?

[iamthat]

To go back to an earlier point:
Life depends on there being an ever-evolving diversity of different and, therefore, in one or another way competing, sets of feelings and perceptions regarding what is and isn’t essential. If everything was absolutely consonant, there would be no progression in terms of learning and development, these being a function of the creative exercise of Intelligence and the intelligent exercise of Creativity. Existence, for it could not even be called Life in such case, would just be a round of the same set of symphonic notes endlessly repeating, because everything would then simply operate like clockwork.
Not necessarily. You seem to be saying that humanity develops through competing sets of feelings and perceptions, without which there would be no learning. Maybe humanity would develop more rapidly through co-operation and harmony. Harmony does not mean uniformity.

You refer to the "same set of symphonic notes endlessly repeating". An orchestra is a combination of many very different instruments which combine to produce magnificent symphonies. Maybe it would be the same with a more developed humanity, each person living in harmony with themselves, each other, and Nature, but combining to create an environment where each individual could reach their full potential. Alas, we will not see such a world in our lifetime.

Yes to what you say in your post, iamthat, BUTT :biggrin: then there's the issue (which I am attempting to raise here, but which you are apparently, presumably for your own purposes, willfully deaf to) of appropriateness in terms of time and place, to wit: "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
This is true. And perhaps one day there will be a time of real peace, but humanity is not yet at that stage of development.

I 'accuse' :smile: you of grinding your own 'axe' in relation to the issue of consequence, by way of including 'Peace' as a PRO FORMA means of 'oneupsmanship' in this forum-discussion (which includes honest/valid expressions of disagreement) IMO.
You are free to project whatever motive you want on my valediction of Peace. Just remember that this is your projection.

I wish you peace.

[davidsun]

What do you think is more useful to a person: intellect or intuition?
Like any tool, its uselfulness is a function of the intelligence and skill of the person who uses (or miss-uses!) either of them.
From my book:

"We’d better be careful. Even when accurate, discrimination and judgment do not in and of themselves serve good purpose. They are, in fact, quite often put to ill use. Many awards of merit and approval, for example, are just bribes aimed at procuring allegiance. And much criticism and penalization, instead of being constructive, is anti-Life in spirit and function, basically hateful. What passes for righteousness is often no more than self-serving affectation—let’s not fool ourselves and let’s not be fooled. Besides being discerning, one must be concerned enough to discover why those involved (including oneself) don’t do better and conscientious enough to do what will promote more optimal actualization, if one is to creatively contribute.

In such quest, adages and directives should not simply :smile: be accepted and uncritically followed, no matter how esteemed their source or how brilliant seeming their interpretation. Life is too multidimensional and its components too intricately interwoven for guidelines and prescriptions to always be applicable. As the occasional appropriateness and equally occasional inappropriateness of such oft-quoted maxims as “Haste makes waste” and “A stitch in time saves nine” makes quite clear, what will or won’t do the most good depends on circumstance. In this regard, there are no canonical absolutes.

However, one shouldn’t therefore decide it is better to just rely on what is thought of as intuition instead. Though spontaneously arising thought-feeling gestalts and prompts may frequently be totally appropriate and Life-affirming, they are often purely reflexive phenomena, like the excitement of Pavlov’s dogs upon hearing a familiar-sounding bell, heavily influenced by, if not completely a function of, prior patterns of perception and conditioning. As demonstrated by the fact that acclaimed clairvoyants also make erroneous pronouncements, intuition is not a totally trustworthy indication. Even the most impressive revelation does not derive from direct perception of Life’s actual layout, but is a subjective ‘projection’ based on what is ‘alive’ in the domain of one’s personal or group psyche at the moment."


What is worse for a person to be: mediocre or ignorant?
This question is not answerable because these are not compare-able descriptors. The following (also from by book if you want more commentary on the subjjet) may provide some guidance, however.

"Let us ... recognize that, no matter how superior or inferior one may be relative to others in terms of specific traits and attributes, grandiosity and obsequiousness are really pretentious postures, equally unbecoming. Given his or her circumstance, the best anyone can do is choose, from available options, the ones that will be most fruitful. If and when we “judge” ourselves or others, it should be on this score. Besides the fact that no more than this is possible, the quality of Life depends on the degree to which each of us manages or fails to do so."

[inavalan]

Inavalan ... except I would say that one can reason it out - 'correctly' if one has no 'bias'!
What do you think is more useful to a person: intellect or intuition [1] ? What is worse for a person to be: mediocre or ignorant [2] ? [1] Like any tool, its uselfulness is a function of the intelligence and skill of the person who uses (or miss-uses!) either of them.
From my book: ...

[2] This question is not answerable because these are not compare-able descriptors. The following (also from by book if you want more commentary on the subjjet) may provide some guidance, however. ...

In my book:

[1] to a person, intuition is more useful than intellect

[2] for a person, it is worse to be mediocre than ignorant (stupidity is something else)- intellect without intuition equals mediocrity, no matter how high the intelligence

[Aqua-Avatar]

It’s a dream within a dream. Consciousness is the trigger to beat ego and leave Maya. As Maya is ego. Once you do, you break the reincarnation process.

[inavalan]

It’s a dream within a dream. Consciousness is the trigger to beat ego and leave Maya. As Maya is ego. Once you do, you break the reincarnation process.
We all use the same words, but give them different meanings. No wonder we can't communicate nor agree with each other.

To me what you say doesn't make sense.

[davidsun]

In my book:

[1] to a person, intuition is more useful than intellect
What comes to 'mind' :smile: is that the functioning of Intellect = the process of 'thought' de[/i]duction (i.e. exploration of a subject of concern); and that the functioning of Intuition = the process of 'thought' induction, i.e. 'inspire'ation, as when one invents hypotheses pertaining to this or that subject of concern. Both are potentially very useful, especially when 'wielded' in coordination and used to double-check and refine each other. Both are worse than not 'knowing' anything, like loaded guns :icon_eek: are, when 'wielded' by idiots and/or emotionally misguided souls!

[2] for a person, it is worse to be mediocre than ignorant (stupidity is something else)- intellect without intuition equals mediocrity, no matter how high the intelligence

Methinks this statement reflects an emotional bias (and consequent judgmental 'prejudice') on your part. As implied by my previous statement, people with high IQs often are quite 'blind' (by virtue of 'selective' thinking, and mucho 'crazy' (by virtue of 'unbalanced' emotionality).

[inavalan]

@davidsun:

I don't define intuition as a process of thought, nor inspiration. It is knowing beyond intellectual reasoning.

Not sure what emotional bias / judgmental prejudice are you referring to. There is no reliable reasoning if you can't intuitively confirm the reasoning's conclusions. That's why scientists are so many times wrong. That's mediocrity: to be wrong and not question it.

There are four knowledge possibilities:

to know that you don't know - ignorance
to not know that you don't know - mediocrity - the most dangerous situation
to not know that you know
to know that you know

[davidsun]

I don't define intuition as a process of thought, nor inspiration.
Our understandings/definitions differ. That's OK. I 'understand' intuition to be inspire-ation. You say:
It is knowing beyond intellectual reasoning.
BUTT :smile: saying that only says it is something or other that is beyond (i.e. it is NOT :smile") "intellectual reasoning". It doesn't say what you understand it to be.

So there is nothing meaning-full 'in' what you say that I can relate to.

Not sure what emotional bias / judgmental prejudice are you referring to. There is no reliable reasoning if you can't intuitively confirm the reasoning's conclusions. That's why scientists are so many times wrong. That's mediocrity: to be wrong and not question it.
The 'bias' against 'science' that I refer to is illustrated by the FACT that you don't impartially relate to the FACT, which I mentioned, that 'acclaimed' clairvoyants also (sometimes, and sometimes even often) make erroneous 'predications' under the rug - instead of really considering the implications of that FACT. (I agree that 'scientists' aren't 'all-knowing either, BTW!)

There are four knowledge possibilities:

to know that you don't know - ignorance
to not know that you don't know - mediocrity - the most dangerous situation
to not know that you know
to know that you know

In 'joust' :smile: , No. 2 pertains to you as well, I think.

[inavalan]

Our understandings/definitions differ. That's OK. I 'understand' intuition to be inspire-ation. You say:

BUTT :smile: saying that only says it is something or other that is beyond (i.e. it is NOT :smile") "intellectual reasoning". It doesn't say what you understand it to be.

So there is nothing meaning-full 'in' what you say that I can relate to.


The 'bias' against 'science' that I refer to is illustrated by the FACT that you don't impartially relate to the FACT, which I mentioned, that 'acclaimed' clairvoyants also (sometimes, and sometimes even often) make erroneous 'predications' under the rug - instead of really considering the implications of that FACT. (I agree that 'scientists' aren't 'all-knowing either, BTW!)


In 'joust' :smile: , No. 2 pertains to you as well, I think.
You seem to intend to insult me. Bye.

[davidsun]

You seem to intend to insult me. Bye.
I could take your dismissively not responding to what I say as an insult. I don't because I recognize that you/anyone are just being the 'best' you can be and trying to get your point across.

Just as you have done in relation to me, my intention was/is to confront and challenge you (in this case) with what I consider to be important truth.

OK with me if you want to 'pick up your marbles' and 'go home'. I ain't paying the "I'll scratch your back no matter what" game, especially in relation to somone who projects 'superiority' on relation to others' implied 'mediocrity'. This I do across the board. I recognize the intensity and depth of your quest, Inavalan. It ain't personal.