Is karma only part of duality? Or a Universal Law?

[Miss Hepburn]

So, If all is One, would karma still apply to the One?

Karma being: *What goes around comes around -
*what we put out, we attract to us...
*what we sow we reap....not the reincarnation part of it.

I mean just in this life right now?
Like: If I steal...will I get stolen from?
If I dwell in fear of being robbed - will I draw a robber to me?
Does our belief or disbelief in karma or sowing, and thus, reaping -make a difference?
Does it exist regardless if we poo-poo it? (As some people think here?)

Thanks in advance for your discussions and ideas. :icon_cool:

[JustASimpleGuy]

The quote "He who wears a form wears the chain too" does not apply to enlightened ones. They no longer wear a form (identify with body-mind) and therefore break the chain of karma. That's why they are freed from the cycle of death and rebirth.

In essence as long as we buy into illusory reality we wear the illusory chain.

EDIT: I don't really like the language of illusion and unreal. I prefer to think of it as a transient manifestation of the Vast, and the transient manifestation always subsides back into the Vast.

[inavalan]

Are your questions addressed only to those who subscribe to "all is One" concept?

[Miss Hepburn]

Are your questions addressed only to those who subscribe to "all is One" concept?Oh, I dunno.:biggrin:
Go for it.
Why would karma not be in motion just because you don't believe in it?
Maybe address that aspect? Or whatever you'd like. LOL:wink:

And thanks, JustaSimpleGuy! Loved it.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

There is no karma if with God we be in alignment
With the pulse of love as bliss in joyous enlivenment

Karma being but sphericality of earth life experience
Dissolving when we reclaim our innate pristine innocence

When mind body vaporises merging consciousness with infinity
Karma automatically disappears being in the domain of ephemerality

Or we may say ... where love is, karma disappears
Where the ego is manifest, karma appears


***

[Busby]

So, If all is One, would karma still apply to the One?

Karma being: *What goes around comes around -
*what we put out, we attract to us...
*what we sow we reap....not the reincarnation part of it.

I mean just in this life right now?
Like: If I steal...will I get stolen from?
If I dwell in fear of being robbed - will I draw a robber to me?
Does our belief or disbelief in karma or sowing, and thus, reaping -make a difference?
Does it exist regardless if we poo-poo it? (As some people think here?)

Thanks in advance for your discussions and ideas. :icon_cool:

Karma is a universal law but most of us know it under another name.

I am sitting at my desk writing this. You are sitting or standing or walking or travelling reading this. You and I and everyone else at this moment is at the very latest moment of existence - 'karma' has played its part in us getting where we are at the moment. Not only a personal 'karma' but also a collective 'karma' has led to where you and I are.

All of the two trillion galaxies and the grains of sand on the beach are there because of everything that has ever happened.

All the excuses we have for believing that there is a thing called karma will continue to exist as long as we put everything into little closed boxes labelling them according to things we observe - whereby it's those thing we don't 'count' that really take on form and which we read between the lines.

You and I are at the very pinnacle of our 'journey' - we call it

EVOLUTION.

[inavalan]

Oh, I dunno.:biggrin:
Go for it.
Why would karma not be in motion just because you don't believe in it?
Maybe address that aspect? Or whatever you'd like. LOL:wink:

And thanks, JustaSimpleGuy! Loved it.

:smile: When I asked I was in a more expansive mood, willing to share, hoping to offer others an alternative to their views, on which to ponder. Now is late, and I'm sure that nobody's willing or ready for that.

Short form: karma means that every person always gets more of what they think. This isn't about their actions, it is only about their thoughts; this isn't inflicted by an external power, it is inflicted by themselves; this works as well here, and over there.

[sky]

So, If all is One, would karma still apply to the One?

Karma being: *What goes around comes around -
*what we put out, we attract to us...
*what we sow we reap....not the reincarnation part of it.

I mean just in this life right now?
Like: If I steal...will I get stolen from?
If I dwell in fear of being robbed - will I draw a robber to me?
Does our belief or disbelief in karma or sowing, and thus, reaping -make a difference?
Does it exist regardless if we poo-poo it? (As some people think here?)

Thanks in advance for your discussions and ideas. :icon_cool:



Karma is Universal... Every action has a reaction as in Cause and effect....

[shivatar]

Why does it matter to you?

If you are just trying to stir a discussion, I don't respect that. However if you are asking for your personal benefit, I'd say that Karma is a force in existence.

What else karma is doesn't bother me. Why karma is. how karma is. those things dont bother me. I know karma exists, so I only relate to it from that stance (when I choose to. Many times I choose to ignore it and suffer the consequences of that choice).

So in my experience. Karma is a thing. If its a unviersal law or not, I decline to speak about that fact since I am not the type to bother with universal laws.

All I care about it moving wisely. and to move wisely, you must understand cause and effect. Cause and effect is a good base definition for karma. perhaps not the best, but a good base none the less. So yes, I do take into account cause and effect.

Beyond that, I don't really care about it. I don't live my life under the law of karma. It's just something i'm aware of.

Just like I'm aware of the speed limit. i usually go 5 or 10 over. Yes I know the limit, and I understand the consequences of going over. Still though, dont care, i do what I want to do because I have will. I know karma is a thing and has effects, I don't live under its rule though. Like i dont choose actions based on their good and bad karma effects.... usually... sometimes i will indulge in an action because I see it has some insane karmic returns lol.

[Miss Hepburn]

.....Short form: karma means that every person always gets more of what they think.
This isn't about their actions, it is only about their thoughts;
this isn't inflicted by an external power, it is inflicted by themselves; this works as well here, and over there.'Not inflicted' - great 2 words, since many think it is - and inflicted by God, no less - seems 'He' often gets the blame, ha.

I thought it was a universal law...meaning cause and effect happened in
every dimension; why, even to the fish miles under the ocean...and, of course,
not a punishment, as so many, also, think.

Only about our thoughts...now, that is a new idea, imo.
I would like to say: thoughts pop in -"I'd like to super glue the key hole to that business that rips people off", lol. :tongue:
However, our next thought could be, "Where did THAT come from? I would never do that!"
I do think most of us (on this forum) want to have kind thoughts.
Thanks inavalan. :smile:

Thanks sky123 -I forgot in my op - "Every action has a reaction as in Cause and effect"
Busby - Karma = evolution! Good one! I never put those together - Brilliant, as the Brits say. :icon_cool:

Thanks and question Unseeking- "Where the ego is manifest, karma appears".
I was thinking of it as whether ego or no-ego, this dimension or another it just was, no?
Every action has a re-action 'type of thing'.
Karma coming back to you when you are kind -
or coming back to you when you are unkind ,(* or harbor either thoughts)
Thus, whether one believes in karma or not it still exists.
Does every action have a reaction - always or eventually?

Oh, wait....does a person who is forgiving stop the ill-will/ unkindness towards them in that instant - by having no feeling about it?
(I get an image of an arrow coming at you - hold up a gentle hand and it turns to dust in the air - ending it's 'effect'.)
Is that another reason for Detachment? (!)
So that you 'end this action/reaction' effect?

(Another image - when you ignore a child's bad behavior - it often just stops since they're not getting any attention.)
Like ending a cycle....ok, I think I'm onto something...
ha, the premise of ACIM©. (Forgiving instantly, cuz, it never happened anyway!!!) Ha~!

Love these early morning sudden ideas. :tongue:

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

@ Miss H ... I thought it was clear. When we are identified with mind body as representing who we think we are, this delusion or the ego being manifest compels us to engage in thought, word & deed following ego’s cravings. This creates karma.

On the other hand, if the ego is not, all that remains is our presence in sync with the divine love vibration. We have no fear, no desire, no agenda as in an identity self actualising something for its own gain. A non-doer. Then there is no karma.

We yet have to deal with past karma however.

About us as a non-doer ... in resonance with love, it no longer matters what happens for we seek no reward nor flinch from pain if it comes our way. We simply play the cards as they fall, so to speak, without predicting outcomes. We recognise love as the only real vibration under all circumstances.

***

[zorkchop]

Miss Hepburn . . .

Karma is action / reaction . . . cause and effect . . . retribution and justice . . . whatever one wishes to call it. It does assist in understanding the ways and means of the lower psychic worlds . . . the physical, astral, causal, mental, and etheric . . . and it does help us grow by learning our own personal responsibilities within these worlds . . . on all psychic levels from physical to mental / etheric. It is part of a greater Law of these Universes . . . the Law of Vibration . . . which in the respect of karma would be inflow and outflow. In a sense . . . yes . . . I guess one could deem it to be evolutionary.

Even a true Master on this plane is subject to karma. Obviously by the time one is a true Master he knows about karma and how to sidestep it, not incur the negative aspects of it, or balance it out with positive actions.

Without karma and reincarnation . . . there would be no lower psychic world school. We get back what we put out . . . on all levels. How much more simple can it get? How else are we to learn to be responsible for EVERY action . . . one way or another.

But looking at the responses . . . this is yet another example of how spun and tweaked the understanding of simple cause and effect can become . . . what’s “involved” in and with it, etc. The mind will slurp up just about anything that sounds intriguing . . . and juggle it all to keep itself amused. Get the definition of “ego” involved and “duality” involved and “universal” involved and “illusion” involved and “vaporizing” this-and-that” involved . . . how can anyone come to terms with simple cause-and-effect?

Yes . . . it can be done.

It is the untangling of it all . . . and the sorting it all out into a single understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is . . . that is the Path. Again . . . it is more a question of fine-tuning, letting go, and simplifying all the bells and whistles and mental fluff than the learning of anything “new.”

But I have always been intrigued by your consistent and constant reference to all of us being ONE. I understand the Unity of LIFE . . . but if you wouldn’t mind . . . we are all ONE . . . what? And how does your perception of “We are all ONE . . . “ assist and comfort you in your understanding of the Whole of Life?

To any and all . . . please disregard anything I’ve said here if it goes against your sensibilities.

[Miss Hepburn]

Thank you, UnseekingSeeker.
zorkchop, very good input, thank you. :icon_cool:

This 'Being One', part of the One, being extensions of the One,
the One Consciousness within all is like seeing something ya can't un-see.

If someone hasn't seen or experienced it - it's just some concept...I get that.
Same thing with this place being an Illusion, some say, "Huh?"

They aren't concepts for me - since I was 8 yrs old on.
Does it comfort me - well, sure - helps not to get caught up in this place and also to be kinder
since whatever I do I'm doing it to myself. (That's not some idea I read from a book.)

[no1wakesup]

So, If all is One, would karma still apply to the One?

Karma being: *What goes around comes around -
*what we put out, we attract to us...
*what we sow we reap....not the reincarnation part of it.

I mean just in this life right now?
Like: If I steal...will I get stolen from?
If I dwell in fear of being robbed - will I draw a robber to me?
Does our belief or disbelief in karma or sowing, and thus, reaping -make a difference?
Does it exist regardless if we poo-poo it? (As some people think here?)

Thanks in advance for your discussions and ideas. :icon_cool:

Karma is simply identification with cause and effect. It's really not happening to anyone although its seems that way for both victim and perpetrator within the ego.

[Miss Hepburn]

Karma is simply identification with cause and effect. It's really not happening to
anyone although its seems that way for both victim and perpetrator within the ego.Good one. :wink:
People really have so much to say about this. Very insightful.

[zorkchop]

Miss Hepburn . . .

I figured most of my question would be answered when the semantics were straightened out . . . and that turns out to be true. In the far reaches of the Path . . . “consciousness” is understood and accepted as just IS. It is an existence that simply IS . . . and little more. Everything that exists does so within consciousness. Trees, rocks, reptiles, humans, aliens, and other worldly / dimensional entities exist within this Consciousness. We each simply take from it what we wish to apply and live within during each lifetime . . . building anew upon the old.

Whether someone has or has not experienced consciousness matters not. Consciousness . . . and Truth . . . prevails regardless. One cannot NOT experience consciousness. Even the human state of being un-conscious is a state of consciousness. The mind often designs definitions to allow for just about anything one wishes to focus on . . . or find an excuse / rationalization / justification for. No doubt . . . the mind is VERY good at what it does.

What makes up consciousness . . . IT’s role in the scheme of LIFE . . . IT’s purpose . . . the part Soul plays in IT all . . . these and many more are very intriguing discoveries . . . and make perfect sense . . . even “almost” from a mental point of view when mind learns to get out of its own way and allow for the understanding of LIFE from a much larger picture. Interestingly enough . . . it is Soul that guides mind to such discovery and acceptance. It takes forever.

So yes . . . Consciousness could be designated as “One” . . . since there is nothing else in that aspect of LIFE . . . but again personally speaking . . . I tend to accept it as an Existence in and of IT-self . . . which just IS . . . and I try not to even limit it with the word . . . “One.” Limiting it to a word such as “Existence” is tedious enough . . . but . . . we gotta communicate with what we have. To accept IT as something that just IS . . . tends to freak the ind out . . . because the mind brings all around to its mental understanding using labels, definitions, categories, MEST, etc.

Lastly . . . karma apples to all the psychic worlds but there is no karma beyond the Soul Plane and above. If someone has attained that level . . . but is continuing their “education” in these lower worlds . . . karma does indeed apply. That individual would not have been able to attain that level of awareness without knowing the place of karma in the scheme of Life . . . and how to deal with it. There is cause and effect . . . and balance . . . to all things within these psychic worlds.

In any event . . . all is well.

[inavalan]

Browsing forums, not only this one, I'm fascinated by people's capacity of taking ideas and concepts form various sources, making those their own, then regurgitating them with the conviction they know the truth.

In actuality, even first-hand experiences are distorted by our beliefs, biases and limitations.

PS: Not pointing any fingers ...

[sea-dove]

So, If all is One, would karma still apply to the One?

Karma being: *What goes around comes around -
*what we put out, we attract to us...
*what we sow we reap....not the reincarnation part of it.

I mean just in this life right now?
Like: If I steal...will I get stolen from?
If I dwell in fear of being robbed - will I draw a robber to me?
Does our belief or disbelief in karma or sowing, and thus, reaping -make a difference?
Does it exist regardless if we poo-poo it? (As some people think here?)

Thanks in advance for your discussions and ideas. :icon_cool:

The karma doesn't necessarily come back in exactly the same way.. if you steal you have created a loss for another and possibly hardship too. The karma may come back to you in a different way eg you could loose your job and experience the loss and hardship that way instead of another stealing from you. I guess that is why some find karmic consequences at times not easy to see.

It doesn't matter if someone believes in karma or not as negative actions will attract negativity back be in in this life or another. (dont think of karma just as being negative as there is positive karma which can be created too). Time doesnt exist to the soul so restricting the karma to one lifetime .. well it just doesn't work like that, so one can't think about karma without thinking about possible consequences to other lives too or those possibly impacting on us right now.

If one fears being robbed, yes you may draw the robber to you. There isn't just one universal law happening so those others such as LOA with ones thoughts are also affecting us too. So if things are going wrong in ones life.. one needs to consider all those things. I suppose if one is neutralizing ones good karma this life by negative thinking.. I suppose that would cause it then to be manifesting instead in ones next life. There is always a balance to things. Next time you get "just lucky" with something, know that you have created that for yourself at some point. Things can start to make more sense once we start being aware of past lives and our past doings. Things we were associated with in the past, often come up again to be dealt with, these may be people, entities or similar situations.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Another way to put it could be that karma continues to impact us until we learn to resolve all conflicts and correct all misalignments by Love alone.

***

[sea-dove]

***

@ Miss H ... I thought it was clear. When we are identified with mind body as representing who we think we are, this delusion or the ego being manifest compels us to engage in thought, word & deed following ego’s cravings. This creates karma.

On the other hand, if the ego is not, all that remains is our presence in sync with the divine love vibration. We have no fear, no desire, no agenda as in an identity self actualising something for its own gain. A non-doer. Then there is no karma.

We yet have to deal with past karma however.

About us as a non-doer ... in resonance with love, it no longer matters what happens for we seek no reward nor flinch from pain if it comes our way. We simply play the cards as they fall, so to speak, without predicting outcomes. We recognize love as the only real vibration under all circumstances.

***

I liked your post as that is something I've experienced.

I was in a situation where I'd accidentally taken a park someone else was waiting for (I just didn't see that he was waiting). I wasn't able to back back out and give it to him as the guy went immediately into road rage and came at my car with his so aggressively that he almost skidded right into it (it stopped the skid only cms from mine)

He then jumped out of his car (he was so enraged that he left his car actually blocking the lane of the very busy road not caring if the police saw his car there) and came at me.

He was so angry that I believe that if I wound the window up to try to talk to him through that that he would of actually smashed through the window.

Instead of fighting this situation which would of fueled it, I only had one option, faith, love, trust that "whatever" happened was supposed to be. I decided I'd love this guy with all my being even if it meant he may beat me up. It just did not matter to me what this guy did, if he was going to hit me.. oh well it didnt matter at all. If that happened it was simply going to be a case of just how it was. I had dropped all ego completely and just was in a pure state.

He got to my door and raised his fist to punch me in the head through the open window but on seeing my eyes as he did that which had no fear in them but which were not evoking any kind of negative feeling from him (I simply looked at him with kindness and query in my eyes (a simple curiosity of what he was about to do to me).. he completely deflated. I've never seen anyone drop in the manner he did before in a just a split second of time. It was like he'd just been kicked or something., he just slumped on the spot.

I calmly then apologized to him telling I was really sorry that I had not seen him waiting for the park. He then started profusely apologizing to me and told me he'd had a very terrible day and that he was sorry that he'd been able to take it out on me (his whole heart was in his apology, if there was a flower seller about I think he would of gone and brought me flowers at point, he now wanted me to keep the parking spot). It was an interesting situation but it showed me the power of that pure state.. no ego when one is just in love and would welcome any action which occurs no matter what that action is (state of no expection).

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

@ sea-dove ... the beautiful and noteworthy point of your story is that you emoted love as a default reflex. :smile:

Ultimately, all conflicts must be resolved by love alone ... by unconditional forgiveness & acceptance

***

[NoOne]

Hi Miss Hepburn,

This is an excellent question and this is what I can say about it from personal experience:

Karma is actually psycho-energetic muck that builds up in the subtle body of a person, which gets carried over from one life to the next.

When one experiences an awakening and the serpent of fire rises from its slumber, it burns away the fruits of karma on the tree of life, which is the human body's energetic system. As the serpent rises from one centre to the next, memories, suppressed emotions and hangups that are lodged in that particular energetic centre re-emerge and one must learn to process them, deal with them and let go. There is felt relief as the fruit of karma is let go of and the energy can move up to a higher centre.

In the end all attachments, which are mostly a result of Karma are burnt away and only then, once the fiery serpent breaks through to heaven (which is to be found above the seventh chakra, above the head, hence the heaven is above imagery), and Shakti can finally reunify with Shiva, Oneness is experienced in a burst of light and energy, which we call enlightenment.

I may have simplified it for brevity's sake, but that's the gist of it.

[Altair]

How is it a universal law? If karma exists than there is no way to escape it for any living creature. What would the karma be of yersinia pestis, all those ''souls'' living as nasty bacteria that killed millions of people? What about the spider that snares bugs and other insects in its web?

It's more likely the humans project their sense of right and wrong, and ''actions carry over to another body through reincarnation'' upon all living things. If you look at it from a non-human perspective then there is nothing to learn and no sense of right and wrong in slowly suffocating a prey or wiping out an entire population. Maybe the 'heavens' will drink a beer in equal fun with Hitler as they do with Buddha, and while that may be a frightening thought it could possibly be no less bizarre than suggesting there's cosmic judgement, imo.

[Busby]

How is it a universal law? If karma exists than there is no way to escape it for any living creature. What would the karma be of yersinia pestis, all those ''souls'' living as nasty bacteria that killed millions of people? What about the spider that snares bugs and other insects in its web?

It's more likely the humans project their sense of right and wrong, and ''actions carry over to another body through reincarnation'' upon all living things. If you look at it from a non-human perspective then there is nothing to learn and no sense of right and wrong in slowly suffocating a prey or wiping out an entire population. Maybe the 'heavens' will drink a beer in equal fun with Hitler as they do with Buddha, and while that may be a frightening thought it could possibly be no less bizarre than suggesting there's cosmic judgement, imo.

It seems to me that you confirm my own ponderings about karma. I don't wish to presume or blatantly concur but right at the end of all possible arguments about the existence of something called karma we find that we do have to include everything. As above.
Surely all organic and non-organic matter has to be included to get a complete picture of the workings of the universe; mountains do crumble - and there and everywhere else for me universal laws come into play.

I doubt very much if the universe cares a fig about goodies and baddies.

Your Hitler and Buddha picture sums up nicely our concern when we busy ourselves with rewards and punishments. We need to throw out a lot of bathwaters and the babies in those waters need to go too.

The concept of karma although constantly being redefined is admirable but can basically only be kept going if the theory of (to keep it easy) God and Satan is somehow interwoven. Morals and ethics - for me morals are directly to do with the conception of good and bad and ethics to do with basic understandings lead unfortunately and basically to us refusing to see the maybe harsh realities of the universe.
Personally and in recent times I have dropped any arguments for a thing called karma functioning in the background, I suppose because I fail to see its workings in normal life. It may be pointless to say this but having led a full and happy life I find it impossible to suggest either to my neighbour or to myself that this is because of my past actions.
The universe and its workings - all those microbes and nasty spiders - exist because of the total accumulated workings of well - everything. Each one of us has at least one of the atoms which inhabited Napoleon's body and we breathe some of the air he had in his lungs.
Without continuing I'd just like to say that the universe really is intelligent but has as yet not got round to wearing clean underpants and wanting everything to be what we understand as good.

Maybe we humans, wherever we may be, are the first step in an evolutionary process fumbling to find its feet.

[zorkchop]

inavalan . . .

You do not need to point fingers . . . what you say applies to all.

Everyone learns the Letter of the Law ( the written word ) and juggles them until they learn the Spirit of the Law ( How and Why it fits into the Whole of LIFE ). That’s the nature of learning. People plug in beliefs and test them out . . . through the passage of time . . . from weeks to months to years to decades to lifetimes . . . and they will believe until they *know* . . . as proved through personal testing and personal experience. As the old saying goes . . . one believes until you know . . . and yes . . . one can believe they know . . . hence . . . on goes the Path through the lifetimes.

If one wishes to question personal experience . . . then one makes their Path even more adventuresome indeed. Who else is going to test their own individual and personal beliefs . . . until they know?

On top of it all . . . very few people have the capacity to discern between someone using various ideas and concepts as their own . . . to someone who HAS indeed tested them and found their worth and Truth. Few people even take the time to try and discern.

And in this day and age when there is SO much mis-information and personal tweaks . . . it all becomes that much more difficult.

Many times . . . it is those very people we wish to dismiss that offers the greater Truths. This certainly is not *always* true. The human experience resents change . . . and with lack of discernment . . . where and how is one to turn?

I will tell you this . . . and I mean this most sincerely . . . if you have a better way . . . please offer it here . . . and if it works . . . and you can get your viewpoint into a book . . . you will make an absolute fortune. All of mankind would rejoice.

Until then . . . on we go.

[Miss Hepburn]

Wow, thanks for the input - too many now to comment on. :smile:

[inavalan]

How is it a universal law? If karma exists than there is no way to escape it for any living creature. What would the karma be of yersinia pestis, all those ''souls'' living as nasty bacteria that killed millions of people? What about the spider that snares bugs and other insects in its web?

It's more likely the humans project their sense of right and wrong, and ''actions carry over to another body through reincarnation'' upon all living things. If you look at it from a non-human perspective then there is nothing to learn and no sense of right and wrong in slowly suffocating a prey or wiping out an entire population. Maybe the 'heavens' will drink a beer in equal fun with Hitler as they do with Buddha, and while that may be a frightening thought it could possibly be no less bizarre than suggesting there's cosmic judgement, imo.

You have a knack for asking good questions :smile:

Karma implies thinking.

Bacteria have very rudimentary thinking. It is just barely on the first quarter of the thinking yardstick: instincts-emotions-intellect-intuition.

Karma has nothing to do with right and wrong. Anyway, right and wrong are relative only to one's level of evolvement.

"Death" is just a more definitive change of focus of awareness of your inner-self, similarly to waking up from a dream. Reincarnation is the inner-self's reincarnation, not the reincarnation of an outer-self.

You're correct: there's no cosmic judgement.

[inavalan]

...
Many times . . . it is those very people we wish to dismiss that offers the greater Truths.
...

Nope. Not even rarely.

[zorkchop]

Firmly stated, Inavalan.

A most self-revealing testimony.

[inavalan]

Firmly stated, Inavalan.

A most self-revealing testimony.

Passive-aggressive ... Amusing, but keep it to yourself.

[Altair]

It seems to me that you confirm my own ponderings about karma. I don't wish to presume or blatantly concur but right at the end of all possible arguments about the existence of something called karma we find that we do have to include everything. As above.
Surely all organic and non-organic matter has to be included to get a complete picture of the workings of the universe; mountains do crumble - and there and everywhere else for me universal laws come into play.

Yes, if karma is real than everything needs to be taken into account, all life, end even existence of matter. Concerning life I often find there's the perspective of the victim. If something painful happens to a human than it is karma, but who's to say the abuser or murderer is 'collecting' harmful karma? If a bug is caught in a web than what did the bug do to ''deserve'' that? Is the spider also not doing what it is simply programmed to do, it needs to survive too. We cannot take sides with bugs or zebras and think spiders and lions are being baddies. Why would a raiding, pillaging Viking, or a soldier in Iraq be any different? Because humans can 'think'? If that is the reason than the rest of life seems pointless, and YET, humans are only one species still alive that thinks in this way (other hominoids may have done so as well).


The concept of karma although constantly being redefined is admirable but can basically only be kept going if the theory of (to keep it easy) God and Satan is somehow interwoven. Morals and ethics - for me morals are directly to do with the conception of good and bad and ethics to do with basic understandings lead unfortunately and basically to us refusing to see the maybe harsh realities of the universe.
Agreed.

Personally and in recent times I have dropped any arguments for a thing called karma functioning in the background, I suppose because I fail to see its workings in normal life. It may be pointless to say this but having led a full and happy life I find it impossible to suggest either to my neighbour or to myself that this is because of my past actions. I used to believe in karma too, but not really any more. Not due to my own life but more nature as a whole. Then a comet may come crashing down, and many of the critters survive whereas intelligent humans and mammals may die out. It seems the critters are superior..

[BigJohn]

Yes, if karma is real than everything needs to be taken into account, all life, end even existence of matter. Concerning life I often find there's the perspective of the victim. If something painful happens to a human than it is karma, but who's to say the abuser or murderer is 'collecting' harmful karma? If a bug is caught in a web than what did the bug do to ''deserve'' that? Is the spider also not doing what it is simply programmed to do, it needs to survive too. We cannot take sides with bugs or zebras and think spiders and lions are being baddies. Why would a raiding, pillaging Viking, or a soldier in Iraq be any different? Because humans can 'think'? If that is the reason than the rest of life seems pointless, and YET, humans are only one species still alive that thinks in this way (other hominoids may have done so as well).

I have always wondered if karma is involved in the life of a Venus fly-trap being the plant consumes animal life?

[Unseeking Seeker]

I have always wondered if karma is involved in the life of a Venus fly-trap being the plant consumes animal life?

***

It may be if greed overpowers its need :smile:

***

[BigJohn]

***

It may be if greed overpowers its need :smile:

***
You mean if it eats too many bugs?

[7luminaries]

...
Time doesnt exist to the soul so restricting the karma to one lifetime .. well it just doesn't work like that, so one can't think about karma without thinking about possible consequences to other lives too or those possibly impacting on us right now.....

Things can start to make more sense once we start being aware of past lives and our past doings. Things we were associated with in the past, often come up again to be dealt with, these may be people, entities or similar situations.

Many salient general points in this thread having to do with all that is being and becoming all that is. You, me, and the grain of sand...our karma at this moment is in this moment. This here and now. All true.

But in the sense Ms H. was asking, it has more to do with what Sea-Dove has said. That is, it has to do with the ownership and responsibilities inherent in being self-aware sentient beings.

We have a larger portion of karma attendant upon us than does the bacteria or the grain of sand. Because we are not only acted upon by our environment. We do not just reflexively respond to our environment.
We choose and take decisions. We set intentions and have thoughts. We engage purposefully (with right-alignment or misalignment) with our environment.

And it is here that the fullness of karma comes to define our existence. First and foremost our existence as individuated consciousness. And then also of course as emanated, manifest sentient physical beings, incarnated into this spacetime. If consciousness is, karma is. So I would say it does not have to do with duality but with the core of conscious existence. Of something rather than nothing in the most fundamental sense.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Unseeking Seeker]

You mean if it eats too many bugs?

***

:biggrin:

Possibly karma comes into play at the human level only when we are granted power of discrimination

***

[zorkchop]

inavalan . . . your abrasive and malignant attitude and approach is not worthy of a response. I considered you to be above such tactics. I was wrong. I stand corrected.

[Miss Hepburn]

If something painful happens to a human than it is karma,
but who's to say the abuser or murderer is 'collecting' harmful karma?
See? We wouldn't know what the entire scenario is about, looking on.
(Another reason why we are not to judge the person, we can't -
we don't know the whole story.)

A friend's friend I met, was attacked on a Calif beach one night -BUT -
she said she got a 'vision' (of some sort), that she knew this man and
this was about some past karma -so she let it happen - meaning didn't scream out, fight back, etc.
Interesting.
Did she rob/beat him one time? So, he is off the karmic hook?

I heard (was it Dr. Brian Weise? can't rem) about 2 people getting together on the
Other Side and the guy (the killer) opening his arms when he finally met
her (the killed) later
and said, "That was SOooo hard to do!"
Cuz, now they clearly saw it was part of the script or karma or something...
it seemed it was for her to learn something.
He did it 'for' her.

Sounds like a wild story - but it was told very seriously.


(Wonder if saying a karma a diff way would help...sowing and reaping?
Was the spider the fly; the fly we see now, the spider last life?)

[FallingLeaves]

if you've ever experienced 'instant karma' you won't doubt the existance of karma... at some point it becomes obvious that you are reaping what you have sown.

meanwhile it crosses my mind that you could also consider karma to be a kind of mirror, so that you can see what it is you've done. Instead of jsut releasing whatever you want on on everyone else and then going blithely along as if you could consider forever that you weren't being mean and actually get away with it. it also seems related to the golden rule...

[Unseeking Seeker]

See? We wouldn't know what the entire scenario is about, looking on.
(Another reason why we are not to judge the person, we can't -
we don't know the whole story.)

A friend's friend I met, was attacked on a Calif beach one night -BUT -
she said she got a 'vision' (of some sort), that she knew this man and
this was about some past karma -so she let it happen - meaning didn't scream out, fight back, etc.
Interesting.
Did she rob/beat him one time? So, he is off the karmic hook?

I heard (was it Dr. Brian Weise? can't rem) about 2 people getting together on the
Other Side and the guy (the killer) opening his arms when he finally met
her (the killed) later
and said, "That was SOooo hard to do!"
Cuz, now they clearly saw it was part of the script or karma or something...
it seemed it was for her to learn something.
He did it 'for' her.

Sounds like a wild story - but it was told very seriously.


(Wonder if saying a karma a diff way would help...sowing and reaping?
Was the spider the fly; the fly we see now, the spider last life?)


***

The tit for tat continues to rotate until the sufferer forgives ... exiting the game

The aggressor however must again suffer the torment as inflicted u til his consciousness also is able to forgive in the same manner

***

[Unseeking Seeker]

See? We wouldn't know what the entire scenario is about, looking on.
(Another reason why we are not to judge the person, we can't -
we don't know the whole story.)

A friend's friend I met, was attacked on a Calif beach one night -BUT -
she said she got a 'vision' (of some sort), that she knew this man and
this was about some past karma -so she let it happen - meaning didn't scream out, fight back, etc.
Interesting.
Did she rob/beat him one time? So, he is off the karmic hook?

I heard (was it Dr. Brian Weise? can't rem) about 2 people getting together on the
Other Side and the guy (the killer) opening his arms when he finally met
her (the killed) later
and said, "That was SOooo hard to do!"
Cuz, now they clearly saw it was part of the script or karma or something...
it seemed it was for her to learn something.
He did it 'for' her.

Sounds like a wild story - but it was told very seriously.


(Wonder if saying a karma a diff way would help...sowing and reaping?
Was the spider the fly; the fly we see now, the spider last life?)


***

The tit for tat continues to rotate until the sufferer forgives ... exiting the game

The aggressor however must again suffer the torment as inflicted until his consciousness also is able to forgive in the same manner.

All conflicts must eventually be resolved by love alone.

***

[hazada guess]

***

The tit for tat continues to rotate until the sufferer forgives ... exiting the game

The aggressor however must again suffer the torment as inflicted until his consciousness also is able to forgive in the same manner.

All conflicts must eventually be resolved by love alone.

***

Wise words.

[zorkchop]

One of the tough things about understanding karma is that the vast majority of individual karma in any present lifetime comes from previous lives. If a person who is peaceful and kind is murdered . . . people tend to wonder . . . “What the heck?”

Exactly how, in what way, and when any karmic implication is to be balanced is not up to the individual. There are entities in the higher dimensions whose job it is to set this . . . and they are not in the habit of listening to the plea’s of anyone. A debt is a debt . . . or an imbalance is a imbalance.

When one has advanced VERY far along the Path . . . they may then have some say in re-balancing the implications that are left . . . along with understanding how to maintain balance in the present moment so as not to incur anything new.

All of this is by design. None can escape it . . . not while in the lower psychic worlds.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

@ zorkchop ... the ‘karmic escape’ lies in becoming love enabled to a degree where no lower vibration displaces love resonance. Then no new karma is created. However, the past has yet to be dealt with.

Or in other words we may say that love enablement is our earth life purpose.

Degrees of love in shades of depth vary subtly however, manifesting as joy, empathy, compassion, purity and bliss in permanence.

***

[Miss Hepburn]

Wise words.Yes, they were. :smile:

[Unseeking Seeker]

Yes, they were. :smile:

***

Thanks Miss H for saying so although I do readily confess that this came in as a wisdom download in a crystal clear manner with pictorial illustrations. As such, I’m merely echoing what I was told/shown. :smile:

***

[zorkchop]

Unseeking Seeker . . .

A most worthy and laudable principle to plug into your own personal path. May it “work” for you as long as it “works” for you. The adventure continues.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Unseeking Seeker . . .

A most worthy and laudable principle to plug into your own personal path. May it “work” for you as long as it “works” for you. The adventure continues.

***

Yes. And without a trace of doubt.

***

[MikeS80]

So, If all is One, would karma still apply to the One?

Karma being: *What goes around comes around -
*what we put out, we attract to us...
*what we sow we reap....not the reincarnation part of it.

I mean just in this life right now?
Like: If I steal...will I get stolen from?
If I dwell in fear of being robbed - will I draw a robber to me?
Does our belief or disbelief in karma or sowing, and thus, reaping -make a difference?
Does it exist regardless if we poo-poo it? (As some people think here?)

Thanks in advance for your discussions and ideas. :icon_cool:
Karma is only a part of duality if someone follows karma for a reward. Karma is used as a tool by those who are ignorant of the ultimate non-duality infinite reality. People are ignorant of the ultimate non-duality infinite reality because their ego converts the universe's/god the infinite's good and positive energy into duality energy that opposes god the infinite's good and positive energy, which are of course bad or negative energy by making bad or negative judgments via thoughts (thoughts are energy, thus thoughts are things). The problem or issue is the ego creating the illusion of bad or negative by converting or manipulating the universe's/non-duality/God the infinite's good and positive energy into bad or negative energy.

[Gem]

It's universal law, so given the options, not part of duality.