KARMA

[Uday_Advaita]

KARMA

“Every act a Ceremony.
Every word a Prayer.
Every walk a Pilgrimage.
Every place a Shrine.”
~ Charles Eisenstein
I may just add
Every happening an act of Divine.

Every day, Every moment, Life keeps throwing innumerable events, situations, thoughts, love & hate …. at us. Out of this 99.99% is simply beyond our control.

We walk into situations. Most of the times we are at a wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, very few times we are at the right place at the right time. What do we do?

Wise men tell that your “KARMA” (Action) is your own making. How you respond to whatever life throws at you is your own making.

Your life is your own making!!!!

I wish it were true
Namaskar

[Miss Hepburn]

KARMA
..........
....Every happening an act of Divine.
Every day, Every moment, Life keeps throwing innumerable events, situations, thoughts, love & hate …. at us. Out of this 99.99% is simply beyond our control.
We walk into situations. Most of the times we are at a wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, very few times we are at the right place at the right time. What do we do?

Wise men tell that your “KARMA” (Action) is your own making. How you respond to whatever life throws at you is your own making.
Your life is your own making!!!!
I wish it were true
NamaskarHi, I wondered if you could clarify for me to understand your message better...it seems on one hand you think--
-everything is an act of the Divine
-not often are we in the right place and time
-Life throws things at us
-99.99% of things are out of our control.
- your life is your own making
- I wish it were true...

Which is it for you personally?

I mean what are you trying to say, exactly.
Thanks. :smile:

(Oh, and, I don't know what Namaskar means, could you tell me? Also, what language, Hindi?)

[WildHairedWoman]

KARMA

“Every act a Ceremony.
Every word a Prayer.
Every walk a Pilgrimage.
Every place a Shrine.”
~ Charles Eisenstein
I may just add
Every happening an act of Divine.

Every day, Every moment, Life keeps throwing innumerable events, situations, thoughts, love & hate …. at us. Out of this 99.99% is simply beyond our control.

We walk into situations. Most of the times we are at a wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, very few times we are at the right place at the right time. What do we do?

Wise men tell that your “KARMA” (Action) is your own making. How you respond to whatever life throws at you is your own making.

Your life is your own making!!!!

I wish it were true
Namaskar

Maybe it is perception, the way you think. "Life is what you make it" means what you think of it, and how you act or react to what you think. So, if 99.99% of life is beyond our control, then why not just sit down and wait for the end? I think you are having a bad day. 99.99% is way too high. Just think about when you woke up this morning? You had a few choices right then.

Yes, sometimes things happen that are out of our control, but our response to it is ALWAYS in our control.

[Unseeking Seeker]

KARMA

“Every act a Ceremony.
Every word a Prayer.
Every walk a Pilgrimage.
Every place a Shrine.”
~ Charles Eisenstein

***

A divine surrendered zestful orientation ... :smile:

***

I may just add
Every happening an act of Divine.

Every day, Every moment, Life keeps throwing innumerable events, situations, thoughts, love & hate …. at us. Out of this 99.99% is simply beyond our control.

We walk into situations. Most of the times we are at a wrong place at the wrong time. Yes, very few times we are at the right place at the right time. What do we do?

***

If we look carefully, we are exactly where we have chosen by free will to be for our earth life experience although we may neither remember nor accept it as such.

***

Wise men tell that your “KARMA” (Action) is your own making. How you respond to whatever life throws at you is your own making.

Your life is your own making!!!!

I wish it were true
Namaskar

***

It is! We always have the choice to exit delusion anytime, anywhere.

***

[Miss Hepburn]

We always have the choice to exit delusion anytime, anywhere.
That needs to be repeated...a very profound Truth.

[ketzer]

***


If we look carefully, we are exactly where we have chosen by free will to be for our earth life experience although we may neither remember nor accept it as such.
......
We always have the choice to exit delusion anytime, anywhere.

***
Quite true. We choose the channel, and then forget we did so and complain about the show.

[Uday_Advaita]

Hi, I wondered if you could clarify for me to understand your message better...it seems on one hand you think--
-everything is an act of the Divine
-not often are we in the right place and time
-Life throws things at us
-99.99% of things are out of our control.
- your life is your own making
- I wish it were true...

Which is it for you personally?

I mean what are you trying to say, exactly.
Thanks. :smile:

(Oh, and, I don't know what Namaskar means, could you tell me? Also, what language, Hindi?)

Oh on second reading, I did notice that I was not quite clear as to what I wanted to say.
My understanding is: All actions are divine. We under the influence of divine hypnosis believe that we are the doer of our actions. Which we are not..
Some may argue, that if it is the case, then why do anything at all.
Well! "Not doing something" or non-action too is not controlled by your free will.
Namaskar

P.S. Namaskar is a form of salutation in my native language Marathi. It is similar to Namaste in Hindi

[Uday_Advaita]

Maybe it is perception, the way you think. "Life is what you make it" means what you think of it, and how you act or react to what you think. So, if 99.99% of life is beyond our control, then why not just sit down and wait for the end? I think you are having a bad day. 99.99% is way too high. Just think about when you woke up this morning? You had a few choices right then.

Yes, sometimes things happen that are out of our control, but our response to it is ALWAYS in our control.

Well! When I said 99.99%, I actually meant 100%
My understanding from my personal experience is that, when we say My Action or my doing, we seem to be guided by our personal volition.
On closer scrutiny one may reach a conclusion that the so called choices made by us supposedly under our total free will are guided by our genes (DNA) and the hitherto conditioning (up to date life experiences - memories) which were never under our control.

You rightly asked - then why do anything and why not wait for life to happen?

Well! Have you ever tried "Doing nothing"
You have NO CHOICE for that too. It is not possible to "Do nothing"
All the actions (yous or anybody else's) and or happenings are a part of (but NOT separate from) totality of the functioning of this manifest universe.

This is my understanding. You may find this fatalistic.
Well actions are still happening through this Mind Body Apparatus as and when needed.
Namaskar

[Jaraja]

How is it possible to exit delusion at any time, that imples we have control over our sense of reality, looking at the myriads of ways to find meaning through philosophy and various practices some of which would take years and years. The first problem is recognition of the delusion in the first place and then find a way that solves this, is that not why we have so many groups proclaiming answers. The simple truth is that in this case it is not possible to comprehend reality without somekind of interventin outside our control some call it grace

[zorkchop]

WildHairedWoman spelled it out quite nicely.

*Exactly* what happens to us . . . and when . . . and how . . . is NOT within our control. Most often these are karmic implications that we have carried forward into this lifetime. That they catch up to us know makes little sense to us in this lifetime. If we did something quite detrimental five lifetimes ago . . . and it comes to light in this lifetime . . . it absolutely makes no sense to us.

So many believe that we *choose* each and every little action in each lifetime. No . . . we do not. We are presented with possibilities . . . with opportunities . . . and then we will react to them when presented. Some . . . can be stalled off . . . but they WILL be presented later . . . and just exactly when that “later” will be is often NOT up to us.

So what WILD said is quite true. It is not what happens to us . . . but how we react to it. If we fight back against it . . . it becomes worse . . . and the implications only deepen. If we do the best we can to solve and resolve . . . to perhaps struggle but yet learn from it and lay it to rest . . . then that implication is often settled.

As Jaraja says . . . to get beyond the illusion / delusion of the present lifetime . . . is quite the undertaking. Most in the physical world do not yet know what the main illusion / delusion of it is. Many try to explain it away as “its all a dream so why even bother” . . . and that fulfills the individual for a LONG time.

The Path does not take this long to uncover and truly, deeply understand . . . because it is easy. It’s not. As the old saying goes . . . it is quite simple but it is NOT . . . easy.

[Unseeking Seeker]

How is it possible to exit delusion at any time, that imples we have control over our sense of reality, looking at the myriads of ways to find meaning through philosophy and various practices some of which would take years and years. The first problem is recognition of the delusion in the first place and then find a way that solves this, is that not why we have so many groups proclaiming answers. The simple truth is that in this case it is not possible to comprehend reality without somekind of interventin outside our control some call it grace

***

The steps to exit delusion are as follows -

Recognition that we ... meaning our consciousness experiences earth life through senses, stores the experiences into memory but .... interprets by thought.

Thought being of two types ... one in which there is a doer ... a thinker thinking. This is analytical thought. It fragments, bisects trying to join small pieces to reach a conclusion within the limitation of both perception as well as the thinking process itself. The other type of thought has no doer ... no separate identity / entity thinking. This is intuitive thought. It cognises the essence of the whole in an instant. The mechanism of its operation is simply connecting to Universal consciousness.

Our sense of separate identity ... the belief that we are a distinct separate consciousness having no interconnectivity with all other life, all other form ... is delusion. Our sense of separateness is called the ego.

We are actually formless consciousness in temporary occupation of bodily form which is a vehicle, an interface to navigate earth life.

We cannot believe this since our senses are externalised. So, the world we see around us with us as a separate entity seems real.

To exit delusion, all we need to do is reverse polarity. This means that we shift our attention away from the external ephemeral domain to the internal eternal. Within. We prioritise intuition rather than analytical thought. We internalise senses.

Why would we do this since it would turn our life upside down?

Seeking happiness, we do not find it in the external. Pleasure is fleeting. Pain magnified by thought becomes suffering. We feel helpless in limitation, in the contraction of our consciousness. We feel bound as though in prison.

Once we self realise voluntarily that happiness cannot be found in the external, we turn inwards. This self realisation is the step that enables us to rotate polarity as mentioned above.

Going in, within, there is no doing. There is undoing. Undoing conditioning of our past, of attachments that bind, confine and limit shrouding us in fear and enmeshing us in desire. There is no striving, no competing ... only connecting. Connecting our consciousness to Divine Love by listening to the voice of our conscience. We become a heart over head person.

Easy if we choose, impossible if we don’t.

And yes ... we have to walk the path ourself. Not alone though ... with Divine assistance.

***

[WildHairedWoman]

How is it possible to exit delusion at any time, that imples we have control over our sense of reality, looking at the myriads of ways to find meaning through philosophy and various practices some of which would take years and years. The first problem is recognition of the delusion in the first place and then find a way that solves this, is that not why we have so many groups proclaiming answers. The simple truth is that in this case it is not possible to comprehend reality without somekind of interventin outside our control some call it grace

We do have control over our sense of reality. For example, I spent some time feelinging like I was surrounded by insanity. I prayed at night for God to change the people I worked with so that I could be ok. LOL!!! Eventually the voice in my head said "You have no control over anyone else, the only control you have is what you think about them." It gave me pause and I decided that I needed to find one thing I liked about each of the people I thought were making me miserable. In the end, I learned a lot about each of them and was amazed that they survived some horrific life events and were able to function. Their way of coping was different than mine, but not worse or better. I realized my perceptions were under my control and had nothing to do with any outside forces OR God or any other fatalistic manipulation. We may not be able to choose what life "thows at us" but we are able to choose how we think and respond. So, no, none of our perceptions are outside of our control.

So, if you want to pretend like you are not responsible for your thought and actions, go ahead, but it will not serve you in the end.

[Miss Hepburn]

The steps to exit delusion are as follows -
:biggrin: :tongue: When I saw this I stood up in attention inside....We are very lucky to have you here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very few know the part about 'undoing', btw...they have not
yet been exposed to the word itself.
(Come to think of it...sometimes many don't know about the Divine Assistant part.)

[Miss Hepburn]

We may not be able to choose what life
"throws at us". but we are able to choose how we think and respond.
So, no, none of our perceptions are outside of our control.

So, if you want to pretend like you are not responsible for your thought
and actions, go ahead, but it will not serve you in the end. I have a tendency now not to be surprised or mad at what happens in my life...
I was tossed a couple of curve balls in my normally easy life recently (pretty darn big curves, if I must say ...not simple
proverbial dents in my car!)...but I
saw them as (tho, hugely inconvenient, bordering on irritants that can cause slitting of the throat) :tongue:, as Pretty Cool...
since obviously I was shown I was not as detached from this world as I thought..
(tho, I saw since I handled these things so well,....haha, I kinda saw I was actually lol :D )

The curve balls were just at the right time, just perfection...did I plan these before I came here?
Maybe..Maybe the plan was much bigger turmoil....
BUT, my point in writing is: Don't you find when you get over something...it doesn't happen anymore...
you have 'overcome ' it.
Now, there can be bigger and better curve balls...but not the same ones anymore.

You have knocked those pins down once and for all.

Just chatting with you cuz you seem to have a good head on your shoulders, girlfriend. :wink:

[Unseeking Seeker]

:biggrin: :tongue: When I saw this I stood up in attention inside....We are very lucky to have you here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very few know the part about 'undoing', btw...they have not
yet been exposed to the word itself.
(Come to think of it...sometimes many don't know about the Divine Assistant part.)


***

:hug3:

Actually, initially I thought I’d write ‘stretch & yawn’ but then I realised this is not the poetry section and figured a detailed note would be more apt :smile:

***

[ketzer]

***

It is! We always have the choice to exit delusion anytime, anywhere.

***

Yes, and eventually we always do so, again and again and again.

[WildHairedWoman]

I have a tendency now not to be surprised or mad at what happens in my life...
I was tossed a couple of curve balls in my normally easy life recently (pretty darn big curves, if I must say ...not simple
proverbial dents in my car!)...but I
saw them as (tho, hugely inconvenient, bordering on irritants that can cause slitting of the throat) :tongue:, as Pretty Cool...
since obviously I was shown I was not as detached from this world as I thought..
(tho, I saw since I handled these things so well,....haha, I kinda saw I was actually lol :D )

The curve balls were just at the right time, just perfection...did I plan these before I came here?
Maybe..Maybe the plan was much bigger turmoil....
BUT, my point in writing is: Don't you find when you get over something...it doesn't happen anymore...
you have 'overcome ' it.
Now, there can be bigger and better curve balls...but not the same ones anymore.

You have knocked those pins down once and for all.

Just chatting with you cuz you seem to have a good head on your shoulders, girlfriend. :wink:


Yes, I see that. I have experienced learning to adapt instead of resist and found that resistance causes something to persist and adaptation moves us forward. It is a kind of Jedi Mind Trick, really. These are not the droids you are looking for... We get to choose how we respond. I had to learn it the hard way, thinking I had a very hard life and that no one understood me. Now I have a comfortable life with very little strife, but I do have worries that I have to talk myself out of sometimes. And now, I speak in the moment instead of letting something stew for ever.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Karma is literally just 1 for 1 a synonym for Consequence.

Karma is NOT believing that every single happenstance will turn out a certain way or create a certain reaction. But rather Karma is more the fact that if you are on a given road, the longer you are on the road... the more over time you gaurantee you reach a given result. So if you're a serial murderer for instance. You may murder 1 person and get away with it. You may murder 2 people and get away with it, etc. But as long as you remain on that path /indefinitely/ as in you plan and have every intention to keep doing it.

Because you persistently and consistently walk down this path. Well think about it. All the possible scenarios where the good guys catch up with you and enact revenge or punishment. Can only happen and will only ever exist... /if/ you're walking down that path in the first place. Not only is it the only way it will ever happen to you, but the longer you go down that road... you ONLY get /closer and closer/ to driving yourself up a dead end lane. That you end up in one of those "Game Over" scenarios.

The same goes for good outcomes. If you're not pushing, if you're not trying and fighting to grow and improve and to reach success in life. Then you will never reach that point, and even if you do go down that path again you're not gauranteed to first get the specific intended outcome. But as long as you stick to that path, the odds that you will EVER get to that point become infinitely more likely.

Point being, Karma describes how we are given a chance to walk away from bad outcomes before they lead to negative consequences. Meanwhile that we are given the opportunity to MAKE a better future for ourselves.

[ketzer]

Karma is literally just 1 for 1 a synonym for Consequence.

Karma is NOT believing that every single happenstance will turn out a certain way or create a certain reaction. But rather Karma is more the fact that if you are on a given road, the longer you are on the road... the more over time you gaurantee you reach a given result. So if you're a serial murderer for instance. You may murder 1 person and get away with it. You may murder 2 people and get away with it, etc. But as long as you remain on that path /indefinitely/ as in you plan and have every intention to keep doing it.

Because you persistently and consistently walk down this path. Well think about it. All the possible scenarios where the good guys catch up with you and enact revenge or punishment. Can only happen and will only ever exist... /if/ you're walking down that path in the first place. Not only is it the only way it will ever happen to you, but the longer you go down that road... you ONLY get /closer and closer/ to driving yourself up a dead end lane. That you end up in one of those "Game Over" scenarios.

The same goes for good outcomes. If you're not pushing, if you're not trying and fighting to grow and improve and to reach success in life. Then you will never reach that point, and even if you do go down that path again you're not gauranteed to first get the specific intended outcome. But as long as you stick to that path, the odds that you will EVER get to that point become infinitely more likely.

Point being, Karma describes how we are given a chance to walk away from bad outcomes before they lead to negative consequences. Meanwhile that we are given the opportunity to MAKE a better future for ourselves.

I like this explanation. Karma seems to have become a word like God, everybody seems to have their own take on it, whatever the original meaning was. Yoga was not originally intended to just be the exercises meditators did to stay limber between long spats of sitting, yet now we have hot yoga, goat yoga, and frozen yoga... or maybe that last one is yogurt.

"The same goes for good outcomes. If you're not pushing, if you're not trying and fighting to grow and improve and to reach success in life. Then you will never reach that point, and even if you do go down that path again you're not gauranteed to first get the specific intended outcome. But as long as you stick to that path, the odds that you will EVER get to that point become infinitely more likely."

This sounds a lot like the power of positive thinking. If you are more positive about your chances of success, you are more likely to keep trying despite your failures, and hence more likely to succeed. Others may attribute it to some sort of magical attraction that occurs, but I think the former explanation is probably a bit more likely to survive the cuts from Occam's razor.

[TerramineLightvoid]

I like this explanation. Karma seems to have become a word like God, everybody seems to have their own take on it, whatever the original meaning was. Yoga was not originally intended to just be the exercises meditators did to stay limber between long spats of sitting, yet now we have hot yoga, goat yoga, and frozen yoga... or maybe that last one is yogurt.
Well because it doesn't really matter what was originally intended by whoever invented the word. Words adapt and change meaning. The question is, is your use relevant? Mine is because it's constructive. It aims to enable an attitude where **** gets done. Shrug.

This sounds a lot like the power of positive thinking. If you are more positive about your chances of success, you are more likely to keep trying despite your failures, and hence more likely to succeed. Others may attribute it to some sort of magical attraction that occurs, but I think the former explanation is probably a bit more likely to survive the cuts from Occam's razor.
I don't see the world as magic, I see it as logic and fact. I break it down by it's rules and follow those. Reality is reality, so the victor is whoever knows how to respect Reality as much as possible. Yes, positive thinking moves in a positive direction with your actions. Thought leads to action, especially through Repitition.

[ketzer]

I don't see the world as magic, I see it as logic and fact. I break it down by it's rules and follow those. Reality is reality, so the victor is whoever knows how to respect Reality as much as possible. Yes, positive thinking moves in a positive direction with your actions. Thought leads to action, especially through Repitition.

Reality has only the rules that we agree to give it. I follow those rules only because I want to play the game along with others. We can break the rules of the game anytime we wish, as long as we are prepared to be ejected from the game. When I grow tired of this game, I will change my reality, and go play a different game, with perhaps a different cast of players and perhaps a different set of rules.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Reality has only the rules that we agree to give it. I follow those rules only because I want to play the game along with others. We can break the rules of the game anytime we wish, as long as we are prepared to be ejected from the game. When I grow tired of this game, I will change my reality, and go play a different game, with perhaps a different cast of players and perhaps a different set of rules.
**** no kid. Reality has cosmic laws which dictate precisely how things are. If I throw a rock in your face, it doesn't matter what you and your friends THINk. It's going to collide with your face if you think you can just whim it to be something else than it is. Reality is set, it is determined.

Now can we put in work to try to shape reality to be what we want? Yes. But ultimately there is a natural direction to humanity's development and I think it's happening BECAUSE God... as in God, God. The one true ultimate being. Is controlling how it plays out.

I don't think we can truly make any reality we want. I think there are things which would create unstable societies that would inevitably collapse. If they could even be STARTED in the first place. Like I don't see how it is even conceivable that a world where Rape perfectly accepted and allowed, could exist. It couldn't happen. There are fundamental truths about Rape that render it functionally impossible. As if the universe itself does have a sense of Morality.

We should not get too big of Egos. I'm not saying we are Jesus or whatever. I AM saying we underestimate our position in things, and that we should take more action to realize our greatest potentials. But that does not make us God, that does not mean we write the rules willy nilly.

[ketzer]

**** no kid. Reality has cosmic laws......
.

Reality has cosmic laws which dictate precisely how things are. If I throw a rock in your face, it doesn't matter what you and your friends THINk. It's going to collide with your face if you think you can just whim it to be something else than it is. Reality is set, it is determined.

From the asterisks, I can see that you are quite attached to, and defensive of, your reality. You are of course entitled to your reality, just as I am entitled to mine, but I must tell you that mine does not work the same as you describe yours. Reality may be determined, but what is determined is only the probability of what could be, not what will be for you or me. The wave function evolves forward, providing in its amplitude, the probability of all possible futures, it is our choice of observation that determines which of those futures we will experience as our reality. If I go with the most probable of those futures, then the rock will most likely hit me in the face, but all the other possible futures are available, always are. Of course, we both get to choose. You may witness the rock striking me in the face, I may see it miss me and go right on bye. Who is right? Why argue about it when we can both be right.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613092/a-quantum-experiment-suggests-theres-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR3Msi1YeXQ

It is fine to apply logic and reason in an attempt to reach the truth, but if one applies it to facts that are only shadows, then the reality they arrive at is just the perceived reality of the shadows.

http://www.philosophyzer.com/the-allegory-of-the-cave-by-plato-summary-and-meaning/

There is nothing wrong with playing guessing games based on shadows on the wall, it is a rather fun and enjoyable and sometimes even profitable game to play. But it is no use becoming annoyed at those who point out that what we are perceiving as reality is based on the shadows. If you want to do better than just playing guessing games based on the shadows, then I would suggest you follow the advice of those who are most serious about discovering the underlying nature of reality and, “shut up and calculate”, for mathematics is still the best tool we have for such a venture. But your shadow puppets won’t provide much help here, and you can check your intuition and even your common logic at the door, as it will soon lose its way as well. Those who have gone down this path have returned with stories about what the mathematics has shown them that are bizarre, logical only within the language of mathematics, and often seemingly impossible. Yet time and time again, every experiment devised to test the predictions of the mathematics has proven out the seemingly impossible reality which it describes.

Now can we put in work to try to shape reality to be what we want? Yes. But ultimately there is a natural direction to humanity's development and I think it's happening BECAUSE God... as in God, God. The one true ultimate being. Is controlling how it plays out.

Everything that has, is, and will play out, already exists in the mind of God. The infinity of past, present, and future, are all there, existing for you and I to experience. You may experience the development, triumph, or failure of humanity as your soul wishes or needs to, for all possible futures are equally real. It is up to you and I to realize them for and within ourselves.

https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/a-controversial-theory-claims-present-past-and-future-exist-at-the-same-time?rebelltitem=5#rebelltitem5
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hugh-everett-biography/
https://phys.org/news/2014-12-universe-dimensions.html

I don't think we can truly make any reality we want. I think there are things which would create unstable societies that would inevitably collapse. If they could even be STARTED in the first place. Like I don't see how it is even conceivable that a world where Rape perfectly accepted and allowed, could exist. It couldn't happen. There are fundamental truths about Rape that render it functionally impossible. As if the universe itself does have a sense of Morality.

Why shouldn’t unstable societies develop and collapse all the time, infinitely many of them. In fact that is one of the leading hypotheses of why, despite overwhelming odds to the contrary, we don’t find any other signs of intelligent life in our observable universe. If forced to place a bet, I would say we are in such a collapsing society right now. Why I chose to experience life in such a society is hard for my limited human egoic focused mind to understand, but i have faith that my soul chose this experience for a reason, else I would probably have changed the channel by now.
Your universe is your own, created entirely by, within, and from you. So of curse you can create a universe where rape is perfectly accepted, however, you cannot force any other consciouse souls to expereince it in parallel along with you. So in such a universe, one may find that despite initial impressions, all of the information creating that universe, is really just coming from them, they are alone in thier universe, and they are in fact just raping themselves. Many people chose to develop the skill of lucid dreaming, and many of them tout as a benifit the ability to have sex in their lucid dream with anybody they wish, but of course they are really only masturbating within thier own mind.
Yes, the multiverse does have woven within its matrix of cause and effect, a fundamental morality. Choose your rules poorly, and you will cause your consciousness to follow along a path through that matrix that includes effects that you may find most unpleasant. Nevertheless, the story of that life will include a moral which your soul can grow from, and hopefully choose its next reality experience with a bit more wisdom. Fortunately, there are infinitely many paths within the matrix, and so infinitely many stories to live, so everything you need is already there for you, and God is an infinitely patient and infinitely compassionate school master.

We should not get too big of Egos. I'm not saying we are Jesus or whatever. I AM saying we underestimate our position in things, and that we should take more action to realize our greatest potentials. But that does not make us God, that does not mean we write the rules willy nilly.

Of course we are God, what else could we be as there is nothing that is not God. Within every cell lies the genetic information needed to create an entire human being. Yet if an individual cell attempts to do so the result is cancer and the illness or death of that human being. The human being is made up of all of those individual cells, yet it is far greater than the sum of them. The greatest potential for any individual cell is to learn to live in unity with the rest of the cells of the body. The greatest potential for any soul is to learn to live in harmony with all souls, and to live in unity with and within the body of God, which gave and sustains its existence. We can write the rules of our reality willy nilly, but we must live by the rules we write. If we want to experience life with others, then we must compromise and cooperate on those rules. Learning how to write the rules that allow us to realize our greatest potential, that is a skill that cannot be taught, it must be learned through experience. We may not be Jesus, but certainly, there is an example from which we can draw both the direction and inspiration needed to keep learning despite the hard knocks we get along the way.

That is how I see my reality, you are of course entitled to create and experience yours as you see fit.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Ketzer's mentality is a dangerous one. That's all I can say in response. Trying to deny reality is what has led to so many attrocities throughout history. Just because he drank the retardo coolaid, doesn't mean we should want to. I don't sense actual esoteric truth in your words, everything just sounds like quack science and this is coming from the guy full of quack science.

See the difference between me and you is, I know how crazy I sound. Which is why when I actually study science, I just represent it as-is. I generally don't interpret the facts to mean some higher conspiracy. I have an idealistic side, and a pragmatic one. The pragmatic one does what it does, running concurrently to but not intersecting with the idealistic side.

So I'll preach a greater truth, but at least I'm not reaching like saying that the wave function means reality isn't reality. Nothing in the science you cite actually has to do with what you're saying. The Wave Function just describes the reality we already know. You talk about probability but ignore other facets of Quantum Physics, such as that it ONLY applies on the Quantum scale to particle sized objects. Or for instance Feynman's diagram that pretty much establishes why we only see 1 outcome and that's because ALL probabilities merge into the 1 probability where the particle reached it's destination.

So basically again, we experience only 1 reality ultimately. This is doubly true if there is a God observing the universe. Because then that would explain why everything at the Macro scale is Determined/Set/A Single Possibility.

[ketzer]

Ketzer's mentality is a dangerous one. That's all I can say in response. Trying to deny reality is what has led to so many attrocities throughout history. Just because he drank the retardo coolaid, doesn't mean we should want to. I don't sense actual esoteric truth in your words, everything just sounds like quack science and this is coming from the guy full of quack science.

See the difference between me and you is, I know how crazy I sound. Which is why when I actually study science, I just represent it as-is. I generally don't interpret the facts to mean some higher conspiracy. I have an idealistic side, and a pragmatic one. The pragmatic one does what it does, running concurrently to but not intersecting with the idealistic side.

So I'll preach a greater truth, but at least I'm not reaching like saying that the wave function means reality isn't reality. Nothing in the science you cite actually has to do with what you're saying. The Wave Function just describes the reality we already know. You talk about probability but ignore other facets of Quantum Physics, such as that it ONLY applies on the Quantum scale to particle sized objects. Or for instance Feynman's diagram that pretty much establishes why we only see 1 outcome and that's because ALL probabilities merge into the 1 probability where the particle reached it's destination.

So basically again, we experience only 1 reality ultimately. This is doubly true if there is a God observing the universe. Because then that would explain why everything at the Macro scale is Determined/Set/A Single Possibility.

Me thinks you need to study your science a bit more. Enjoy your rants and your reality.

"Instead, an object such as an electron, a photon, a molecule, or (just to blow your mind) your grandmother, can be thought of as a blend of properties called a superposition that have different states at once.

The probabilities of those states, each describing its position and energy in time and space, is what we call waves. Seriously, stop trying to imagine it in a classical, physical sense, you'll get a nose bleed."

https://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-run-a-classic-quantum-experiment-showing-how-molecules-act-as-waves

[ketzer]

Ketzer's mentality is a dangerous one. That's all I can say in response. Trying to deny reality is what has led to so many attrocities throughout history. Just because he drank the retardo coolaid, doesn't mean we should want to. I don't sense actual esoteric truth in your words, everything just sounds like quack science and this is coming from the guy full of quack science.

See the difference between me and you is, I know how crazy I sound. Which is why when I actually study science, I just represent it as-is. I generally don't interpret the facts to mean some higher conspiracy. I have an idealistic side, and a pragmatic one. The pragmatic one does what it does, running concurrently to but not intersecting with the idealistic side.

So I'll preach a greater truth, but at least I'm not reaching like saying that the wave function means reality isn't reality. Nothing in the science you cite actually has to do with what you're saying. The Wave Function just describes the reality we already know. You talk about probability but ignore other facets of Quantum Physics, such as that it ONLY applies on the Quantum scale to particle sized objects. Or for instance Feynman's diagram that pretty much establishes why we only see 1 outcome and that's because ALL probabilities merge into the 1 probability where the particle reached it's destination.

So basically again, we experience only 1 reality ultimately. This is doubly true if there is a God observing the universe. Because then that would explain why everything at the Macro scale is Determined/Set/A Single Possibility.

Me thinks you need to study your science a bit more. You are wrong on a number of accounts.

Everything at the macro scale is underlain by quantum physics. Arguing that quantum effects are not relevant to the macroscopic world is like arguing that the rain has nothing to do with the river. Getting angry at those who try to tell you the shadows are not reality is natural, but sooner or later you need to stop yelling and start looking, else you may give yourself a nosebleed.

"Instead, an object such as an electron, a photon, a molecule, or (just to blow your mind) your grandmother, can be thought of as a blend of properties called a superposition that have different states at once.

The probabilities of those states, each describing its position and energy in time and space, is what we call waves. Seriously, stop trying to imagine it in a classical, physical sense, you'll get a nose bleed."

https://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-run-a-classic-quantum-experiment-showing-how-molecules-act-as-waves

[little.nation]

. Like I don't see how it is even conceivable that a world where Rape perfectly accepted and allowed, could exist. It couldn't happen. There are fundamental truths about Rape that render it functionally impossible. As if the universe itself does have a sense of Morality.


Have you not met planet earth and humanity? I suffer perpetual rape. I was grossly sexually assaulted numerous times as a little girl. All of it was intentional and planned. The vulgar evil ones were grooming me for a life - and eternity - of rape and sexual torture. They harass and attack and rape me constantly. They made me violently hate God. My wrath is so fierce that nothing surpasses it. Every time i am attacked and assaulted and vulgarized I in turn attack God.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Have you not met planet earth and humanity? I suffer perpetual rape. I was grossly sexually assaulted numerous times as a little girl. All of it was intentional and planned. The vulgar evil ones were grooming me for a life - and eternity - of rape and sexual torture. They harass and attack and rape me constantly. They made me violently hate God. My wrath is so fierce that nothing surpasses it. Every time i am attacked and assaulted and vulgarized I in turn attack God.
Yeah no, your ****ed up parents are not the world. They are not even remotely indicative of what 99.99999999% of the world is like.

Here's the world: Rape is 1000% illegal. Particularly, rape of children and minors is so universally hated and despised that being a child rapist is to be everything that is anathema to society and humanity and is a very dangerous and deadly road that is extremely unforgiving. If you don't change your ways, a painful death is inevitable. If you do you will forever be marked with a stigma.

When I said there will never be a world where rape is acceptable. I meant where it's legal, where you walk outside and you see your neighbor raping someone, and everyone else sees it and just smiles and waves at your neighbor as he rapes. Or even just on the Rational level, there will never be a world where Rape is logically arguable as being Amoral or morally acceptable.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Getting angry at those who try to tell you the shadows are not reality is natural.

Pot meet kettle. You point to the shadows claiming another reality entirely with no actual proof. That's what's REALLY going on here.

Your little article and the scientists studying Quantum effects on the macroscale. Are pre-supposing based on a clump of 800 particles in an experiment oriented towards one of the most basic fundamental movements(shooting a ball, through a slit). To mean more than it really does. The whole problem is. In the original experiment and in this more recent example. You have actual measurable difference that matters. That you can actually observe these 2 probabilities, thus they both have an actual impact. Hence why you observe both discrete particles, AS WELL AS an interference pattern similar to a wave.

But seeing an 800 atom structure do this does not mean Macro scale. A /Molecule/ is not Macro scale. I will tell you one thing: If this applied to the macro scale we would already know it. It would be too unavoidable. Because every little action we do in our daily lives would count as a double slit experiment. Lemme give you an example. Take your Grandma for instance since that seems to be the favored example to use. Instead of Slits let's use Doors. If your argument was correct then when Grandma goes through 1 door she actually goes through both doors. Not JUST in 2 different universes but actually in 1 superimposed possibility in /this/ universe. You should measure some sort of impact or difference in the room she didn't enter... and in every other room in the building as well... all at the same time.

When someone plays baseball, when they go to swing their bat. The ball would be hit with the force of many bats all landing on the ball at different times and angles. Based upon the superimposed possibility of all the different probabilities of the person swinging the bat at the ball. This is what every scientist means when they say that probability doesn't work the same way at the Macro scale as it does the Quantum. Because the double slit experiment isn't just random nonsense that you get to make up what it means: It specifically means that we are witnessing 2 probabilities for the same object, happening at the same time, within the same universe.

The Macro scale equivalent would be impossible because all these different probabilities of all these different countless objects would be interfering with one another. There's a probability in some alternative universe where an Elephant is currently standing precisely where I am sitting. The double slit experiment MEANS, the elephant in the other probability... would be /SQUISHING ME PHYSICALLY SPEAKING, IN THIS UNIVERSE/. Despite there being no elephant actually physically here. Hence the particle acting like a wave when we SEE it as a discrete object. We never actually SEE the wave with our own eyes.

But you know all of this was overkill. All I really needed to do, to stop you at the door? Was ask you... "So when does the experiment begin when we shoot a macro sized ball through a macro sized slit?"

Again, you are a complete failure in life if you seriously think any of the actual science coming from your mouth... means that "all of life is a lie, we are god and we can do whatever we want herpity derpity!"

[TerramineLightvoid]

Why I chose to experience life in such a society is hard for my limited human egoic focused mind to understand, but i have faith that my soul chose this experience for a reason, else I would probably have changed the channel by now. See this is what I mean. Your... kind. As in the kind of person who comes up with these ideas, most often a Laymen who is a Weekend Warrior with science. Uses what they learn to try and extrapolate "truths" beyond our current reality with no actual functional purpose to back it up. Sure kid. The reason you can't jump off a building and /fly/ because you whim it... is because lowkey you don't really WANT to. Yeah no I'm not buying it you actually deep down know it can't be true... because if it were you would not have a convenient explanation for why you DON'T just snap your fingers and become God.

You just Ad Nihilo decide that you CHOSE not to. Look here bud. I've thought along similar lines as you at times. But the difference between me and you is... if I truly believed that kind of thing. I would spend my whole life being the guy to prove it and to make it happen. I most certainly wouldn't just talk about it. And look at that? Who in their right mind would CHOOSE mundane messed up human existence? That sounds like something a Drone who isn't destined to be anybody important.... would say. Only the goody two shoe by the book Joe, would rationalize and justify his own lame existence and look at his overlords with a poop eating grin saying "I love this man, thank you."

If you could just snap your fingers and exist in ANY reality you want. Nobody in their right mind would say they would CHOOSE /this/ world we live in. Bullshnizz, quit playin dude.

[ketzer]

Pot meet kettle. You point to the shadows claiming another reality entirely with no actual proof. That's what's REALLY going on here.

Your little article and the scientists studying Quantum effects on the macroscale. Are pre-supposing based on a clump of 800 particles in an experiment oriented towards one of the most basic fundamental movements(shooting a ball, through a slit). To mean more than it really does. The whole problem is. In the original experiment and in this more recent example. You have actual measurable difference that matters. That you can actually observe these 2 probabilities, thus they both have an actual impact. Hence why you observe both discrete particles, AS WELL AS an interference pattern similar to a wave.

But seeing an 800 atom structure do this does not mean Macro scale. A /Molecule/ is not Macro scale. I will tell you one thing: If this applied to the macro scale we would already know it. It would be too unavoidable. Because every little action we do in our daily lives would count as a double slit experiment. Lemme give you an example. Take your Grandma for instance since that seems to be the favored example to use. Instead of Slits let's use Doors. If your argument was correct then when Grandma goes through 1 door she actually goes through both doors. Not JUST in 2 different universes but actually in 1 superimposed possibility in /this/ universe. You should measure some sort of impact or difference in the room she didn't enter... and in every other room in the building as well... all at the same time.

When someone plays baseball, when they go to swing their bat. The ball would be hit with the force of many bats all landing on the ball at different times and angles. Based upon the superimposed possibility of all the different probabilities of the person swinging the bat at the ball. This is what every scientist means when they say that probability doesn't work the same way at the Macro scale as it does the Quantum. Because the double slit experiment isn't just random nonsense that you get to make up what it means: It specifically means that we are witnessing 2 probabilities for the same object, happening at the same time, within the same universe.

The Macro scale equivalent would be impossible because all these different probabilities of all these different countless objects would be interfering with one another. There's a probability in some alternative universe where an Elephant is currently standing precisely where I am sitting. The double slit experiment MEANS, the elephant in the other probability... would be /SQUISHING ME PHYSICALLY SPEAKING, IN THIS UNIVERSE/. Despite there being no elephant actually physically here. Hence the particle acting like a wave when we SEE it as a discrete object. We never actually SEE the wave with our own eyes.

But you know all of this was overkill. All I really needed to do, to stop you at the door? Was ask you... "So when does the experiment begin when we shoot a macro sized ball through a macro sized slit?"

Again, you are a complete failure in life if you seriously think any of the actual science coming from your mouth... means that "all of life is a lie, we are god and we can do whatever we want herpity derpity!"

Once again, you misinterpret and miss the point of the science and philosophy references I give you, and then you use your rather poor grasp of the scientific theories as erroneous premises for arguments to draw conclusions that don't even follow. My spiritual beliefs are not scientific theories, that is why I bring them to something called a spiritual forum. However, they are conjectured from the implications of the scientific theories I mention, and they do form a coherent structure of how reality ultimately works. It's a shame really. Few people do engage with this subject matter, and when one finally does, he seems to just want to rant in an angry incoherent way and toss insults.
Perhaps if you were a bit more pleasant fellow I would continue to engage with you and explain further, but I can see after a few short posts that this would be a waste of time, a waste of space on the forum, and frankly just plain annoying. You seem to know a little bit about classical physics and the other sciences that flow from it, but your understanding beyond (and even somewhat within) that is poor. You seem to mostly just want to rant at anyone who does not see things through your limited view. And by the way, no, you do not see through your eyes, perhaps if you start by understanding that, you may be able to see beyond your limited scope of vision.
I will leave you to the others if they wish to engage with you, but I really don't see any point in having further discussion with you.
Good bye and best of luck to you.

[Gem]

Once again, you misinterpret and miss the point of the science and philosophy references I give you, and then you use your rather poor grasp of the scientific theories as erroneous premises for arguments to draw conclusions that don't even follow. My spiritual beliefs are not scientific theories, that is why I bring them to something called a spiritual forum. However, they are conjectured from the implications of the scientific theories I mention, and they do form a coherent structure of how reality ultimately works. It's a shame really. Few people do engage with this subject matter, and when one finally does, he seems to just want to rant in an angry incoherent way and toss insults.
Perhaps if you were a bit more pleasant fellow I would continue to engage with you and explain further, but I can see after a few short posts that this would be a waste of time, a waste of space on the forum, and frankly just plain annoying. You seem to know a little bit about classical physics and the other sciences that flow from it, but your understanding beyond (and even somewhat within) that is poor. You seem to mostly just want to rant at anyone who does not see things through your limited view. And by the way, no, you do not see through your eyes, perhaps if you start by understanding that, you may be able to see beyond your limited scope of vision.
I will leave you to the others if they wish to engage with you, but I really don't see any point in having further discussion with you.
Good bye and best of luck to you.



It's not that quantum behaviour means anything in particular; it's just that quantum behaviour is interpreted in different ways, including the 'Copenhagen interpretation', which seems to be most favoured, and the 'many worlds interpretation' among others. Some explain entanglement as a higher dimensional phenomena... and so on, but no one actually knows what it means. There is a calculation which makes accurate, correct predictions - and there's speculation about what that might imply - like a variety of stories we can use to make 'common sense' out of it all (even though those stories are pretty crazy!). I have no idea what it implies in any spiritual sense except to mention the observation which is integral to the process.

Kamma is a different paradigm altogether because the 'cause' is volition. Buddha claimed that kamma is volition, which means not that kamma is some of reward or comeuppance, but this moment of intent. Framed in that way, it impels one to be self-aware, and by knowing the volition one knows just what they do. People are often compelled by their reactivity to form ill-will, and all nature of aversion to their circumstances, as well as impulses of greed etc. and so forth. The teaching suggests that we be aware of these tendencies within ourselves and eliminate the impure urges that generate suffering while cultivating beneficial mindstates of goodwill and positivity that generate happiness.

[7luminaries]

Yeah no, your ****ed up parents are not the world. They are not even remotely indicative of what 99.99999999% of the world is like.

Here's the world: Rape is 1000% illegal. Particularly, rape of children and minors is so universally hated and despised that being a child rapist is to be everything that is anathema to society and humanity and is a very dangerous and deadly road that is extremely unforgiving. If you don't change your ways, a painful death is inevitable. If you do you will forever be marked with a stigma.

When I said there will never be a world where rape is acceptable. I meant where it's legal, where you walk outside and you see your neighbor raping someone, and everyone else sees it and just smiles and waves at your neighbor as he rapes. Or even just on the Rational level, there will never be a world where Rape is logically arguable as being Amoral or morally acceptable.
TLV, hello there.
You are right that rape is never acceptable morally. You're right that there is an underlying truth, or morality, that we (humanity) are still in process of apprehending in its barest and simplest outlines.
But you are wrong that rape is a rare occurrence. Rape and sexual assault are commonplace in all societies. And even in Western societies, it is well-known that out of 1000 rapes, only a handful will be prosecuted, with only a literal few (2-3) resulting in a guilty verdict. Men can and do rape, assault, and coerce women sexually with abandon and with a near-100% certainty of no repercussions. There apparently is no stigma so long as a man can cast a woman as a "prostitute" or otherwise disparage her character. The visceral hatred of too many runs so deep that they foam at the mouth at the thought of women getting their comeuppance through rape, so it's no work at all for any one man to simply slur a woman's character, cast her in a poor light and be done with it. It's more or less the same tired story each time.

Many rapes probably now occur in the West outside of marriage but historically this was the primary place it occurred. Marital rape was not even illegal till 30-35 years ago. Child brides and marital raping of children is common and even legal worldwide. Sex trafficking of women and children as slaves is estimated now annually to outnumber the historic peak annual slave population in the Americas.

This speaks to the reality you experience (where you consider rape or its possibility to be rare), versus the reality that all women experience and/or live with daily as an ever-present occurrence or threat, a perpetual reality-in-the-making. Clearly, for all we say that "ideally" rape and sexual assault are bad, we do not in fact act as such on the ground, day-to-day, in our dealings with one another. Words without right-aligned action and behaviour to back them are beyond meaningless -- ask any woman or child who's dealt with this.

On a last note...the situation you describe with the raping &/or murdering of neighbours has in fact happened many times in the recent genocides of the last and current centuries. We cannot rely on social norm, which may at time permit or allow unspeakable atrocities. Nor can we rely solely on civil or criminal law, poorly enforced if at all. We can only rely on the Law of authentic love and right alignment toward one and all. This Law is the foundation of karma.

I haven't read the thread, but I'm fairly certain that changing the ever-present universality of rape and sexual assault on earth has everything to do with karma and ownership of intent, thought, word, and deed --
and nothing at all to do (in essence) with the quantum realm, for all that's a fascinating topic.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Altair]

There's people who believe they can ''create their reality'', in the most literal sense. But there's a mistake in seeing the choices presented with having absolute freedom without consequences. To put it simply, we won't fly by just flapping our arms when we jump off a building. Having strong beliefs to the contrary won't save us. People on drugs can believe such things and act upon it, they have strong belief but then it kills them. Same way some of us may think we can smoke, drink, or eat junk year in year out without consequences. Eventually reality will catch up with all of us..

I have spoken out against solipsism and extreme relativism a lot because these are dangerous philosophies. They're morally questionable and can lead to unhealthy outcomes, either to the enthusiastic follower or to others, people or animals. There's a sense of ''I can do as I please, it's all relative'' or ''It's all illusion'' and all of this is not really well aligned with any notion of karma..

If we are divine beings of love and compassion than it makes sense to try and live in accordance with that, and don't just have an ''anything goes'' mentality about it. True, in practice we are never purists but we can all try our best. So sure, there is relativism, but any extreme relativism is as nonsensical as claiming to have zero impact or collecting zero karma as an incarnated human in this world. We can recognize relativism, but some go overboard using it as a means to excuse any activity or claim anything is possible..

[ketzer]

It's not that quantum behaviour means anything in particular; it's just that quantum behaviour is interpreted in different ways, including the 'Copenhagen interpretation', which seems to be most favoured, and the 'many worlds interpretation' among others. Some explain entanglement as a higher dimensional phenomena... and so on, but no one actually knows what it means. There is a calculation which makes accurate, correct predictions - and there's speculation about what that might imply - like a variety of stories we can use to make 'common sense' out of it all (even though those stories are pretty crazy!). I have no idea what it implies in any spiritual sense except to mention the observation which is integral to the process.

Kamma is a different paradigm altogether because the 'cause' is volition. Buddha claimed that kamma is volition, which means not that kamma is some of reward or comeuppance, but this moment of intent. Framed in that way, it impels one to be self-aware, and by knowing the volition one knows just what they do. People are often compelled by their reactivity to form ill-will, and all nature of aversion to their circumstances, as well as impulses of greed etc. and so forth. The teaching suggests that we be aware of these tendencies within ourselves and eliminate the impure urges that generate suffering while cultivating beneficial mindstates of goodwill and positivity that generate happiness.

They may be in different paradigms, yet I see karma and quantum mechanics intertwined with the former depending at least somewhat on the latter. Volition is defined in the online dictionary as “the faculty or power of using one’s will.” But in Newton’s universe, it is far from certain we have a will. If the universe were just a giant clock, and we are only cogs in that machine, with our actions and even our thoughts just being the results of cause and effect, then how can there be volition. In short, there is no “we” and there is no “I”, just predetermined events playing out according to deterministic laws. Quantum mechanics replaces that determinism with probabilities. Granted, the amplitude of those probabilities are rather shallow under most parts of the wave, but the wavelength is as wide as the universe, so the possibilities are virtually limitless. Whatever the event that will eventually be realized and witnessed from that probability wave, it will not “be”, until observed, and I could be that observer. Here the outcome of the next event is not necessarily deterministic. Here if anywhere is the point in reality where I have the possibility to be shaping it. The fact that I may have done so may get obscured by the merging of countless such events at the macroscopic level, but that seemingly deterministic macroscopic world dynamically emerges from the totality of all such probabilistic quantum events. Mix in a bit of kaos theory, and who knows, my little butterfly sized quantum flap could mushroom into a macroscopic storm of events. As we study the neurons, molecules, and atoms that make up the brain, we continue to find cause and effect relationships. Assume this path does not deviate and follow this chain to its logical conclusion and we become nothing more than the totality of those events, an effect. Thankfully, it does deviate. While it is not proof of free will or my existence, it does offer a possibility that it and me are real, we can exist. In this aspect of quantum craziness, I see a toe hold for free will, a chance that I am not just a sequence of causes and effects. That I am more than just an effect, but perhaps can affect who I am and everything around me. I can be there to own, and perhaps realize, my intentions. I can exercise volition, and have a chance to affect my karma.

[Gem]

They may be in different paradigms, yet I see karma and quantum mechanics intertwined with the former depending at least somewhat on the latter. Volition is defined in the online dictionary as “the faculty or power of using one’s will.” But in Newton’s universe, it is far from certain we have a will. If the universe were just a giant clock, and we are only cogs in that machine, with our actions and even our thoughts just being the results of cause and effect, then how can there be volition. In short, there is no “we” and there is no “I”, just predetermined events playing out according to deterministic laws. Quantum mechanics replaces that determinism with probabilities. Granted, the amplitude of those probabilities are rather shallow under most parts of the wave, but the wavelength is as wide as the universe, so the possibilities are virtually limitless. Whatever the event that will eventually be realized and witnessed from that probability wave, it will not “be”, until observed, and I could be that observer. Here the outcome of the next event is not necessarily deterministic. Here if anywhere is the point in reality where I have the possibility to be shaping it. The fact that I may have done so may get obscured by the merging of countless such events at the macroscopic level, but that seemingly deterministic macroscopic world dynamically emerges from the totality of all such probabilistic quantum events. Mix in a bit of kaos theory, and who knows, my little butterfly sized quantum flap could mushroom into a macroscopic storm of events. As we study the neurons, molecules, and atoms that make up the brain, we continue to find cause and effect relationships. Assume this path does not deviate and follow this chain to its logical conclusion and we become nothing more than the totality of those events, an effect. Thankfully, it does deviate. While it is not proof of free will or my existence, it does offer a possibility that it and me are real, we can exist. In this aspect of quantum craziness, I see a toe hold for free will, a chance that I am not just a sequence of causes and effects. That I am more than just an effect, but perhaps can affect who I am and everything around me. I can be there to own, and perhaps realize, my intentions. I can exercise volition, and have a chance to affect my karma.

That would mean there is effect, and cause, but the cause is not an effect, and I agree that is the case because there are various ways one can 'react' to their circumstantial experience, however, to react is essentially to generate volition as one enters the dynamic of being adverse to one thing and desiring another, and that dynamic is essentially the process of kamma. It is rather obvious that how we might react to our circumstances affects the nature of future outcomes, so I don't think that is in doubt, and to react with aversion is the harbinger of hatred, malice and all nature of ill-will; and with desire, craving and greed, which are doubtlessly destructive in nature, and a dischordant, disruptive vibe to them, which in turn manifests in terrible outcomes, firstly by making us disturbed and unhappy in ourselves, which we spread to everyone around. Those we effect in such a way might then also react adversely and perpetuate the ill-will, which is then their own kamma.


That is why I think it is most important to develop an ability of mindful quietude and stillness which is regardless of circumastances and to remain stable minded in a sort of self-centre so that reactivity doesn't get out of hand and overwhelm one's sense of contentedness. Then, for example, a nasty ill-intended person might do something to hurt me, which is their kamma, not mine; unless I start reacting to their affront - which is then my kamma. Then I start generating misery in myself and end up projecting it around me... generally creating bad vibes, which in turn manifest in adverse outcomes.


It could be thought of as volition effecting the collapse of the field as the vibe we give off begins to determine what we experience, but the most important principle here to consider is, the cause, volition, is not an effect. We do not have to react to circumstances and be subjected to the cycle of 'cause and effect' where each cause is equally an effect and vice versa. We could simply remain even minded regardless of what happens and not become compelled by circumstances.


This is not really a 'free will' story. It is only 'free' in the sense that the 'will' we generate is not dependent on what happens to us; not 'free' in the sense that we control everything that happens. For example, we can understand that a person who generates ill-will toward us is generating their own suffering, which brings a compassionate volition in us rather than a reactive, hateful one. If the offender has the power to bring about ill-will in us, then we begin to generate 'bad kamma'. We immediately start feeling miserable and give off a bad vibe which, in turn, disturbs others all around us.


I think this is the lesson of Christ being tortured and asking for his tortures to be forgivened, because he understood their acts were born of ignorance and 'they know not what they do'. His torturers were unaware (ignorant) that the volition they generated was their own misery, and Christ was compassionate about that, rather than hating them in return. This did not make Christ's circumstances any better, but at least Christ was not generating ill-will, which would be bad kamma within himself, as he was subjected to the bad kamma his torturers generated.

[7luminaries]

There's people who believe they can ''create their reality'', in the most literal sense. But there's a mistake in seeing the choices presented with having absolute freedom without consequences. To put it simply, we won't fly by just flapping our arms when we jump off a building. Having strong beliefs to the contrary won't save us. People on drugs can believe such things and act upon it, they have strong belief but then it kills them. Same way some of us may think we can smoke, drink, or eat junk year in year out without consequences. Eventually reality will catch up with all of us..

I have spoken out against solipsism and extreme relativism a lot because these are dangerous philosophies. They're morally questionable and can lead to unhealthy outcomes, either to the enthusiastic follower or to others, people or animals. There's a sense of ''I can do as I please, it's all relative'' or ''It's all illusion'' and all of this is not really well aligned with any notion of karma..
Hello Altair. Agreed.
These concepts are well worth discussing further...as perhaps many haven't fully spent time with them.

Solipsism is the belief that ultimately there is only the self -- it is narcissism at its purest. Solipsism and extreme relativism (anything goes) are both the foundation and the outcome of a society founded on amoral utilitarianism. It's an ourobouros of derivative, consumptive self-absorption.

Utilitarianism is a theory in normative ethics holding that the best moral action is the one that maximizes utility. Utility is defined in various ways -- and when it is amoral, it can be assumed to be concerned only with the perceived interests and well-being of the self...or perhaps any group furthering the momentary interests of the self.

Amorality is believing and exhibiting indifference to and not abiding by the moral rules or codes of society. Note that an amoral action by one person could be considered immoral by a specific society, depending upon the moral code of the society. YET if your society actively promoties amorality, then of course if you are stronger and more powerful, then you may assert your right to perpetrate grave harms on others regardless of the individual or common good. Their rights no longer exist, or exist only at your whim.

Clearly, amoral utilitarianism is incompatible with either humanitarian rights or representative democracy and will tend toward both chaos (suffering) and authoritarianism (might makes right). Yes, I'd say any strong divergence from authentic love (actively seeking and willing the good of the other) at either the individual or the social level is dangerous. Extremely so.

It's worth a much deeper look at these "mainstream" social norms of the last half-century or so. Norms we've grown up under. At just how destructive and toxic so many of them are. At what is put forth as "acceptable" and even "good" and "right" by mainstream society. And at what cost this comes to you or to me or to any of us...and thus to all of us.

If we are divine beings of love and compassion than it makes sense to try and live in accordance with that, and don't just have an ''anything goes'' mentality about it. True, in practice we are never purists but we can all try our best. So sure, there is relativism, but any extreme relativism is as nonsensical as claiming to have zero impact or collecting zero karma as an incarnated human in this world. We can recognize relativism, but some go overboard using it as a means to excuse any activity or claim anything is possible..
Yes, and yes. Yes, we are that. And yes, if we deny that which we are, then certainly all those other things you describe would be and in fact ARE commonplace (denying karma, denying the equal worth and value of all others, etc).

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by ketzer
They may be in different paradigms, yet I see karma and quantum mechanics intertwined with the former depending at least somewhat on the latter. Volition is defined in the online dictionary as “the faculty or power of using one’s will.” But in Newton’s universe, it is far from certain we have a will. If the universe were just a giant clock, and we are only cogs in that machine, with our actions and even our thoughts just being the results of cause and effect, then how can there be volition. In short, there is no “we” and there is no “I”, just predetermined events playing out according to deterministic laws. Quantum mechanics replaces that determinism with probabilities. Granted, the amplitude of those probabilities are rather shallow under most parts of the wave, but the wavelength is as wide as the universe, so the possibilities are virtually limitless. Whatever the event that will eventually be realized and witnessed from that probability wave, it will not “be”, until observed, and I could be that observer. Here the outcome of the next event is not necessarily deterministic. Here if anywhere is the point in reality where I have the possibility to be shaping it. The fact that I may have done so may get obscured by the merging of countless such events at the macroscopic level, but that seemingly deterministic macroscopic world dynamically emerges from the totality of all such probabilistic quantum events. Mix in a bit of kaos theory, and who knows, my little butterfly sized quantum flap could mushroom into a macroscopic storm of events. As we study the neurons, molecules, and atoms that make up the brain, we continue to find cause and effect relationships. Assume this path does not deviate and follow this chain to its logical conclusion and we become nothing more than the totality of those events, an effect. Thankfully, it does deviate. While it is not proof of free will or my existence, it does offer a possibility that it and me are real, we can exist. In this aspect of quantum craziness, I see a toe hold for free will, a chance that I am not just a sequence of causes and effects. That I am more than just an effect, but perhaps can affect who I am and everything around me. I can be there to own, and perhaps realize, my intentions. I can exercise volition, and have a chance to affect my karma.
Ketzer, hello there. I largely agree with everything as you've stated it here.
The main point is that your volition as =consciousness with awareness and clarity of intention) is impactful. It is, I agree. However, it's important to note your consciousness is impactful even without awareness of your intent. Your consciousness is impactful regardless -- and hence the notion of generating much mindless ill will, fallout, and bad karma if we are not mindful and centred. Even the untrained, unaware consciousness of a sentient being has a reliable, measurable impact on our reality at every level, including the most minute, quantum level (i.e., the observer effect, etc).

You are right to assert that this effect is present in our "large-scale" reality as well, and that the sum of all consciousness and manifest outcomes in each moment comprise our reality, and that we as sentient beings contribute to this reality, which has both physical (manifest) and non-physical aspects. The origins and maintenance of this totality of reality from moment to moment (so to speak) are quite logically not solely the purview of us or any other beings who currently exist (are centered in our being) within the physical reality or realm of existence, but that's another discussion entirely.


This is not really a 'free will' story. It is only 'free' in the sense that the 'will' we generate is not dependent on what happens to us; not 'free' in the sense that we control everything that happens. For example, we can understand that a person who generates ill-will toward us is generating their own suffering, which brings a compassionate volition in us rather than a reactive, hateful one. If the offender has the power to bring about ill-will in us, then we begin to generate 'bad kamma'. We immediately start feeling miserable and give off a bad vibe which, in turn, disturbs others all around us.

I think this is the lesson of Christ being tortured and asking for his tortures to be forgivened, because he understood their acts were born of ignorance and 'they know not what they do'. His torturers were unaware (ignorant) that the volition they generated was their own misery, and Christ was compassionate about that, rather than hating them in return. This did not make Christ's circumstances any better, but at least Christ was not generating ill-will, which would be bad kamma within himself, as he was subjected to the bad kamma his torturers generated.
Gem, hello and well said. I would say the "free will" as you define it is the only free will that matters. If free will meant you control your world, then others have no free will &/or their free will is limited by your whims and dictates.

The recognition that free will is just that -- the intrinsic ability of all sentient, self-aware beings to determine our choices in the moment regarding how we will respond, act, speak, and intend or think -- is one of the sweetest of all things. Even if forced to act, we must submit our will to this coercion. Even if broken in spirit for one lifetime or several, the damage is not eternal, exactly because we can take meaningful decisions and choices in each now moment in any one lifetime or beyond. This free will (as properly understood) cannot be taken from us...it is part and parcel of our consciousness as sentient, self-aware beings.

We may fail to recognise, accept, honour and hone this intrinsic aspect of the self in each one of us. But we can never be parted from it, as it is fundamental to who we are at centre.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[TerramineLightvoid]

Once again, you misinterpret and miss the point of the science and philosophy references I give you, and then you use your rather poor grasp of the scientific theories as erroneous premises for arguments to draw conclusions that don't even follow.
Yeah I don't see how, as I described in explicit non-laymen scientific terms. What it FUNCTIONALLY means. You just hate that I pointed out fundamentally problematic implications that can be deduced by what QP shows us. There IS a higher meaning to it all and QP is going to lead to complete revolution of our comprehension of existence. But where it SEEMS to go from my perspective is in showing how "destiny" works and how we can influence our path due to the "unset" nature of reality. Reality can be what we want, but not in the sense that we just wish it to be. At the macro scale, wishes still are and always will be... granted by adhering to and respecting the physical laws. You want money? You get a job. You want to fly? Build a plane. You want to live forever, master Biology. Pray for a fish, maybe you'll luck out once in your life to find one just flopped up on a shore line. Learn to fight, you'll obtain countless fish over the course of your life. Etc.

Aspiration, Hope, Prayer... are about POTENTIAL... and you only realize Potential through Action. Also I wanted to add on and point out, that even if you had somethin goin with the QP... that does not even remotely touch upon Philosophy or Metaphysics. That doesn't touch upon whether or not it's OKAY to create whatever world you want. Which is the biggest concern. When you say "all of life is an illusion"... you're dismissing the lessons learned. It doesn't matter if we are living in a dream or simulation or whathaveyou... Morality is an objective truth outside the scope of the physical universe. It is PURELY unavoidable philosophical and metaphysical truth.

To give an example of people who think like you... In pedophile communities, they rationalize in their head that all the science which tells them they are wrong, that it's all a lie. A convenient lie by the government. Because they rationalize this, they can then twist what little evidence they can find to try and claim it validates their sickness as "natural" and even going so far as being delusional enough to think that sex with children is the true default and that fully mature and developed women... are "old ladies". Yes it's not the same reasoning per sey, but it's the same FUNCTIONAL theme. Of claiming there's a greater truth which renders our world whether physical or societal... False, Made Up, etc. My thing is following the most classical argument that I think therefore I am, the nature of the argument suggests that the reality we percieve must in some way shape or form be /real/. Other or higher realities do not invalidate other realities.

All it does is show that our world isn't the /center/. But there are also Higher Truths, which transcend the /physical/ universe. Hence why some people choose to persue climbing the ladder of "enlightenment". I love science and consider myself a Master Scientist, I love learning the physical laws. I am mastering Biology currently but have spent a lot of time in Physics and Mathematics. As well as Computer Science. The point being, I probably know way more than you. It's my intention to be the smartest person on the face of the planet, I invest way more time studying and I study countless entire domains of knowledge to simulate being as close to All-Knowing as possible.

To say that I have a bad grasp of the concepts I talk about is to vastly underestimate me.


My spiritual beliefs are not scientific theories, that is why I bring them to something called a spiritual forum.
Yet you MUST concede that spiritual beliefs ARE and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN, the most dangerous. That someone can believe salvation is to drink poisoned coolaid. How many people went down the road you went? That it just turned into insanity and delusion?

Especially because, we must be humble enough to recognize our disposition's in life. I am professionally diagnosed with Aspergers, and I hate to say it but it gives us an Edge... it truly is Savant Syndrome. It most certianly is where "Genius" truly comes from. Or High Functioning Autism in general. I have truly always been significantly more intelligent than my peers, and they most often recognize it too. But even I know that until I put in the work and I make sure I am what I claim... that I must act like everyone is my equal... but moreover I must be able to recognize the patterns. The average person is... the average person. Even the average person may gleam certain knowledge which will lead them down the path to try and become exceptional... but if they aren't prepared and if really they are vastly underestimating just how average they really are(the vast majority of people). Then they will end up opening their mouth and sounding like an idiot to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.

Especially what are the odds that you're not just Average Joe and that trying to reach beyond your bounds will only lead to corruption? In fact if you really wanna tussle over it. I'll tell you right now. The moral philosophical truth that I know, is that Corruption is a pervasive force in the universe and it does everything it can to slip in through the smallest of cracks. People being lead to Blaspheme reality itself, to ignore Reality/God. Are being lead by the Void to destroy. They think they are saving people or saving themselves, but they are ONLY /undoing/.


However, they are conjectured from the implications of the scientific theories I mention, and they do form a coherent structure of how reality ultimately works. It's a shame really. Few people do engage with this subject matter, and when one finally does, he seems to just want to rant in an angry incoherent way and toss insults.
I think my post was EXTREMELY coherent and you just want to whine because I ripped the silver spoon out your mouth. You're not on an entirely bad track but it's dumb to be replacive or reductive with Truth. Truth is an infinite complexity, a Singularity. So ultimately our reality is real. It may not be all there is but we will never be able to escape where we came from, even when we've traveled far away. We will always remember the tiny seed of knowledge that is the entire collection of current human knowledge today. It will always be at the center of what we know, with everything else added on top. Because we wouldn't have reached wherever higher place... if this place hadn't of existed. Just like "I think therefore I am". We were here... as we are now. It's an inevitability of how we end up getting where we do down the road. That we started here was the beginning of the Causality.


Perhaps if you were a bit more pleasant fellow I would continue to engage with you and explain further, but I can see after a few short posts that this would be a waste of time, a waste of space on the forum, and frankly just plain annoying. You seem to know a little bit about classical physics and the other sciences that flow from it, but your understanding beyond (and even somewhat within) that is poor. You seem to mostly just want to rant at anyone who does not see things through your limited view. And by the way, no, you do not see through your eyes, perhaps if you start by understanding that, you may be able to see beyond your limited scope of vision.
I will leave you to the others if they wish to engage with you, but I really don't see any point in having further discussion with you.
Good bye and best of luck to you.
Just because I don't currently technically know most of the more advanced levels of physics down to explicit detail. I've always known more than I am "qualified" to and my journey into outright MASTERING the Sciences has only just begun. But I spent a lot of time in the abstracts and listening to the people who know their stuff. The only reason I started with Biology was because it interested me the most when I was a kid. But I think also because when you consider scale, if I'm going to learn ALL the sciences... I'm gonna want to be able to comprehend complexity packed into a dense and small scale. Like say the incomparable complexity of every facet of human and animal biology.

Atoms, to Molecules, to Tissues, to Organs, to Organ Systems, to the Body. The nervous system being the control center with all these different computational parts and chemicals and transmitters, etc. Even just the skin on a human being is incredibly complex and detailed. But everything from that to even the atom organization and composition of every molecule. Surely if I learn that, and THEN learn the bigger overarching position. I'll be able to put EVERYTHING into perspective in reference to each other.

But who knows where it will take me. Typically the average Human specializes. So they have maybe 1 to 3 at most different expert level knowledge bases. With 4 or so "adept" level knowledges. I've calculated if someone was relentless and spent as much time learning as possible through their entire life in terms of the average lifespan, how many skills they could learn. The result was 100x what people learn in their entire life time. It's just like Physical Fitness. The vast overwhelming majority of people do not work out at all, and if they do... they don't go very far with it. Often giving up, cheaping/slacking, or settling for stagnancy, etc. But then you have your rare few who are dedicated to the lifestyle, ranging from above average to body builders. I lie somewhere inbetween... plus I have the anomaly of having high stamina despite being quite bulky. Thus being able to move fast despite also being pretty swole, and being able to last long.

The point being. You are just trying to throw back what I say to you, to me. But it doesn't work because odds are you aren't the exception... whereas I know for certain I am. Imagine where you will be 5 years from now. 5 years from now I will likely have MASTERED at least 3 primary sciences. Which just becomes the beginning for a lifelong journey of becoming a Master Scientist. What I mean by Master Scientist is.... well on top of everything I said about the average person. Also consider that the average scientist barely learns much real knowledge from other scientific disciplines. On the high end you typically at most see a scientist who also knows 1 or 2 other disciplines well enouhg. Never before have what I described, exist. Even Einstein was largely a specialist.

Imagine what it would be like to know in explicit detail ALL of the sciences. What it must be like, the intelligence... the comprehension... the sheer and utter esoteric singularity bubble of being so far beyond any other human on earth. It doesn't exist because it has yet been that someone was born who had the Determination to wield it. I'm the Thanos of Science, seeking to piece together the disperate "infinity stones" of Science to become the closest thing we can currently conceive of to God.

[ketzer]

Ketzer, hello there.
Hello back at you and thank you for the good discussion.

“If free will meant you control your world, then others have no free will &/or their free will is limited by your whims and dictates.”

Very true. I do believe we can control everything in our reality, and yet it would seem we do not do so. Why? Perhaps, we are not willing to pay the price. My home is my castle, and I can have it anyway I want, but for one exception, I can’t force anybody else to live in it with me. Exercised to the extreme, one’s free will can become one's prison sentence, served in solitary confinement.

Since I have had a request for more pooh wisdom, I thought I would add this one, it seemed to want to be here.
“I think we dream so we don’t have to be apart for so long. If we’re in each other’s dreams, we can be together all the time.”
― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh


For there to be an “I”, I must have free will. I must have independence, and so I do. And yet, though my free will is essential to the very existence of my self, I am driven to compromise my independence in my desire for connection with others.
For there to be “others”, they must have free will. If they are controlled by my whims and dictates, then they are not others, but just a reflection of me. And God knows, I am a hard person to live with.


“However, it's important to note your consciousness is impactful even without awareness of your intent. Your consciousness is impactful regardless -- and hence the notion of generating much mindless ill will, fallout, and bad karma if we are not mindful and centred. Even the untrained, unaware consciousness of a sentient being has a reliable, measurable impact on our reality at every level, including the most minute, quantum level (i.e., the observer effect, etc).”

Yes, you are quite right. I do agree one must be mindful of one's impact on others, as far as one can see and understand it from one's own centered position. One can reliably know that one’s actions will have an impact, but the magnitude and direction of that impact is of course much more difficult to reliably measure, or often to even observe. I suppose that even though the probabilities involved may be low, the butterfly might feel an awesome responsibility with each flap of its wings. It is perhaps a good thing the butterfly does not know much about probabilities and kaos theory, else the weight of its choices might cause it to decide to never fly at all. Which I think would be a loss, as I generally find them pleasant to watch fly as they hop from one flower to another, and I expect they generate far more gentle breezes then hurricanes.

On the other hand, I am pretty sure that one careless moth caused that hail storm that ruined my screens the other day. It will never try that again, I squashed it good and flat!:icon_eek:

[ketzer]

Yeah I don't see how, ....

Speaking of not being able to force another to share ones reality with them, I thought I added you to may ignore list. Why am I still seeing your posts?

Oh, yeah, I must apologize to Uday_Advaita, as the topic of discussion in this thread is Karma and I am getting off the point.
Very well then, "What heinous act did I commit in a previous life to deserve this?"

BTW, In another thread I had noticed you mentioned that you had been banned from the other forum that you previously frequented.
Just out of curiosity, which forum was that?
Perhaps you could provide a link?

[TerramineLightvoid]

TLV, hello there.
You are right that rape is never acceptable morally. You're right that there is an underlying truth, or morality, that we (humanity) are still in process of apprehending in its barest and simplest outlines.
But you are wrong that rape is a rare occurrence. Rape and sexual assault are commonplace in all societies. And even in Western societies, it is well-known that out of 1000 rapes, only a handful will be prosecuted, with only a literal few (2-3) resulting in a guilty verdict. Men can and do rape, assault, and coerce women sexually with abandon and with a near-100% certainty of no repercussions. There apparently is no stigma so long as a man can cast a woman as a "prostitute" or otherwise disparage her character. The visceral hatred of too many runs so deep that they foam at the mouth at the thought of women getting their comeuppance through rape, so it's no work at all for any one man to simply slur a woman's character, cast her in a poor light and be done with it. It's more or less the same tired story each time.
Yeah, no, I'm gonna stop you right there. Like 90% of what you are saying is tumblr and youtube Feminist propaganda. The rape rates are nowhere near as bad as the feminists claim. Especially the college campus statistic is complete bull****. Half the time these supposed statistics would imply that everybody and their momma has been raped like 1 out of 10 men you see are a Rapist and it's ALWAYS skewed to paint the narrative that "Men are Rapists".

Ironically this issue has always been that women redirect attention from themselves. If a female teacher molests a minor, she just gets fired... if a man does the same thing he gets slammed with extreme prison time and doesn't make it out because everybody in there... even the worst of the worst in society, want him and will do whatever it takes to make him /dead/. Female rape is practically nonexistent in terms of recognition. Nobody talks about it, rape groups are oriented towards female victims even down to the language and formal forms and I don't need to explain the obvious fact of how out of place and awkward it would be to be a man going to a victim program or whatever and saying he got raped. In some countries "forced to penetrate" isn't legally recognized.

This narrative that countless or a serious amount of rape cases go unpunished is so hilariously ridiculous. Especially when it's tied with an explanation of a conspiracy that people think it's the victim's falt. "Rape Culture" especially, is one of the most bat**** concepts I've ever heard... and if you wanted to talk about cultures revolving around some sort of immorality... how bout we focus on the MUCH MORE real and most certainly much more prevalant Male Violence and Disposability Culture. 90% of media has some form of male on male or just violence happening to males, often with action based stories treating male side characters as canon fodder for the protagonist to kill like they are completely worthless and disposable.

Rapists are an extremely tiny fringe of people, just like serial killers or even just murderers are an extremely tiny amount of people out of everybody. It's not realistic because you have to stop and realize, most people aren't rapists or murderers. Plain and simple. By most I mean OVERWHELMING. It can't be understated or exaggerated. Meanwhile, bull****, people rarely get away with it... and they never do if there is concrete proof. The main pitfall is evidence, feminists are starting a crusade on the right to a just and fair trial because they think people should just be taken at their word. Any rational person knows that these sorts of rights are so important they are worth DYING over, and categorically... dying is worse than rape. I'm not saying you should have to be raped for this right, I'm saying you cannot put your victimhood OVER other people's well being. All you end up doin is victimizing people functionally by screaming that your problems are more important and they need to be sacrificed for your sense of safety or whatever.

Meanwhile when confronted with real world ways of obtaining greater safety... these people scoff and say that the responsibility isn't on them to watch their own ***. That it's on the bad person to not do wrong. Which is so absurdly naive. Yes people aren't supposed to rape, but the whole point is that it's virtually an INEVITABILITY. It's like people obsessed with gun control not realizing that the true enemy is just Chaos itself. You will never be able to stop crazy people from existing, as society and technology currently is. Maybe that will be possible further down the line with Science... yet ironically people blaspheme and underate it's importance when it is no less than vital to everything.

Getting back to the main subject. I'm not saying rape doesn't happen or that when you tally it up, that it's not technically a lot. Because it is. But it's inflated, by the fact that there are /8 billion people in the world/. Contrasted to that, it's practically nobody. Not to mention it's now being even further inflated by changing definitions of what constitutes Rape. If feminazis are labeling everything rape. Making even the slightest hint of Sexual Harassment out to be Rape. Etc. Then it sounds a lot worse than it is.


Many rapes probably now occur in the West outside of marriage but historically this was the primary place it occurred. Marital rape was not even illegal till 30-35 years ago.
See this is what I'm talking about. Stretching back decades ago to talk about the world as it is[That's dog doodoo in terms of logical argument, because the world has always been pretty ****ed up in general IN NOBODY'S FAVOR MALE OR FEMALE. People in the past hardly even knew better, and just in general I tend to see people in the past as categorically "Barbaric and Inferior" to my and newer generations]. Nevermind that you're going into a very nuanced and esoteric definition of Rape. I'm not trying to say it's not rape if you're married. But it also falls under the umbrella of Stockholm situations and you know it's being said under the context that right now new aged peeps think it's rape to have sex with someone who is drunk or that consent is so grey that if she didn't want it but was too "intimidated" or "anxiety" to verbally community that it was rape, etc. These days the definition of Rape is getting too murky and it seems to be a fad to try and stretch just what counts as rape or a lack of consent as thin as possible. If a woman stayed married to the man, didn't even do everything in her power including run away(break the law if necessary), etc. Then she was /complacent/ which is undeniably a form of Consent.

Most people recognize that if a woman keeps going back to a man that rapes her... that it's her fault and she is fully consensual. Because consent must be complicit in the fact that she goes back or stays. And what's ironic about it is... what you are talking about largely isn't because of Patriarchy... or at least not the side of it that favors men. But instead is the aspect of it that Women upheld and often still uphold to this day. In other words the role of the "pampered princess". Every woman has this position in society. To ignore how patriarchy favors women and that it is often the cause of a lot of the suffering of women much like how patriarchy in favor of men is most often the cause of male suffering.

Women WANTED to be treated like pampered princesses. To deny this is to hilariously try to say that the overwhelming majority of people male or female would have that role if they COULD... and undeniably that is what the female gender role in classical gender stereotypism IS. They wanted that role, they wanted the man to do everything for them and it still shows in the vast majority of women in the dating game today. Similar to the Self-Defense thing... women first assert and decide that they are inherently inferior to men. That they are weaker, softer, etc. But this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The princess becomes the damsel in distress, because unlike the Prince... she didn't learn Combat and work out intensely and be at her peak physical condition and intelligence.

Because women CHOOSE to be feminine. You wrote your own destiny from the start. That if men or even other women with power wanted to victimize you, they would be met with very little resistance because you deliberately made yourself fragile instead of Strong. So when I hear about marriage rape 40-50 years ago. I think about how traditional things were back then, and women ATE UP the sexism and embraced, enabled, and consented to just as much as the men who did it to them.


Child brides and marital raping of children is common and even legal worldwide.
I'm surprised someone else is invoking this fact. Until now, I've found myself to be the only one who is aware or honest about this fact. Altho I would nitpick with your choice of the word Worldwide. I think you mean to say that among all the places in the world, there are a couple which are that way. Even outside of legality, you have places like Thailand where child prostitution is common. But you think this is exclusive to females? Again your glaring sexism is absurd especially because of the acute irony that you fail to recognize that Pedophiles come in both Male and Female variant... and even among the men it cannot be overstated how common male on male pedophilia is. Meaning that even if men are doing it, boys are also the victim /undeniably just as much as the girls/. It's not even remotely a female specific problem.

It's a problem of the world being inequal in knowledge and progress and technology. Again women are always much more forgiven for the most extreme of crimes. Which is completely anathema and contradicts the narrative that the courts have it out for women. Just the fact that so many people now are on board with trashing the 1st ammendment as well the right to a fair trial and Due Process. Highlights just how false it has always been, just how entitled women have always been. Entitlement has always been a female thing more than anything. It's why women can stand there mocking men when they seem to have any sense of it at all. Because they would know wouldn't they? They are the MASTERS of entitlement after all... historically speaking.

Women are so entitled that they shot straight past equal rights and went straight to usurping Men's right to fair trial. They think they are entitled to that. Entitled to victimize men because they have a victim complex "first".


Sex trafficking of women and children as slaves is estimated now annually to outnumber the historic peak annual slave population in the Americas.
There it is again, associating women and children. As if children is even remotely weighted one way or the other in regards to Sex. It's not a gender issue, it's a Child issue and a human issue. Period, end of. Also as far as slavery goes in general, sex trafficking is one thing... but slavery in general I am pretty certain they don't have a particular sex they prefer for /labor/. Pretty sure men are just as much a victim there as well, if there WERE a statistical bias... I would first argue that it's likely again due to cultural differences and how men are conditioned to see victimization as something they have the power to stop and control.


This speaks to the reality you experience (where you consider rape or its possibility to be rare), versus the reality that all women experience and/or live with daily as an ever-present occurrence or threat, a perpetual reality-in-the-making.

Ask any woman or child who's dealt with this.
Okay, now it's getting beyond offensive when you speak with posterity of grouping women and children together. Beyond offensive to the countless male victims over the course of human history, including myself.

Anyways lies and misinformation doesn't speak to anything of the sort. What reality? That there is a male rapist around every corner, and you have to be prepared for the nearest man to you to try and rape you? Yeah no, that is absurdly delusional as would be the case if we put too much stock in what women who have been raped and extremely traumatized, percieve. Isn't it odd that it sounds precisely like what female rape victims claim, even though factually speaking the majority of the time... the trauma of rape makes a person disconnected and paranoid, etc.

In other words, it sounds just like the /insanity/ of a trauma victim. Which makes sense given everything I've said, the fact that ultimately most of these so called "facts" have been refuted by countless sources and shown to be little more than the emotional outbursts of 1st world feminazis who want attention, power, and wealth. Who take the deluded and skewed perspective of the rape victim to represent that a rapist is around every corner and thus every woman is at an extremely high likelihood to be raped.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Speaking of not being able to force another to share ones reality with them, I thought I added you to may ignore list. Why am I still seeing your posts? So you're pretty much admitting that you have no actual intellectual authority here, no actual credibility or legitimacy to your arguments? I say that because if someone actually knows what they are talking about, as in they studied and learned or even performed experiments themselves. They will not simply fold and claim "subjectivity". No scientist claims subjectivity, to do so would admit defeat/forfeit... and in the bigger picture would pretty much be to think that Science isn't true... as it is by definition Objectivity. Or at least that is one of it's most central tenets.

A scientist does not say "You are free to have your opinion, and me mine." and such a claim does absolutely nothing to the fact of the truth. Creationists are free to be bat**** insane, but they are not free to claim that it is false that they are bat**** insane. Or at least, not free to claim so without being shown to be wrong, because the evidence undeniably proves them to be wrong.

A debate does not go away, you do not get to wave the white flag and claim neutrality all of a sudden when you take intellectual positions on things. The white flag is reserved for the Agnostic, you are not claiming to not believe one way or the other so you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are claiming you are confident in your position.

To an observing eye. You are GIVING me the "Win".

[Altair]

7L..
Thanks for the summary of the concepts..:hug3:

I agree they are all rather problematic. Utilitarianism is something I tend to dislike, because it’s not only non-spiritual but also careless. A utility approach to people and the enviromment is very troubling but unfortunately very common. The environment for instance is often reduced to whatever economic “use” it has (“resources”/“ecosystem services”) to people, which has led to very destructive and careless treatment of it and of living beings. This is a much deeper issue that is also closely linked to popular religion and how they view humanity’s place in the world (“king of creation”/“God’s special children”). Now of course we are special ((as are chameleons and oak trees etc.)) but I think we tend to go about that the wrong way..

Relativism can be true at times but all too often gives people lazy excuses, along the lines off “But we can’t say anything about the dog eaters. It’s their culture” and “You can’t criticize female corcumcision, it’s their culture”, as if those people or the dogs have no feelings or can’t suffer as soon as they exist in a different human society. But yeah, can’t criticize.. the powerful are entitled and all of that.

The suffering is universal and can be observed..
Context exists but is no cheap sofa for relaxation..

There might be contextual differences, cases of “We need to survive, it’s our last hope” and “Our army needs to make a move to protect the innocent people” but these extreme cases do not change the norms, and THAT is something that is sadly missed too often. Also, if we need to rely on violence it probably tells us something about our own karma as well, hopelessly stuck in those chains. Some people think relativism is intellectually clever but it’s not, it’s often lazy..!! :tongue:

If an action causes suffering than it creates karma, and so does a ‘beneficial’ or ‘loving’ action, apparently! :tongue: So we’re left with the question what karma do we wish to reap..? I wonder how one can even transcend the good karma. At least, in Buddhism and Jainism it’s said that too much good karma means an incarnation into a heavenly realm, yet no enlightenment. Just a lot of luxury and enjoyment. Perhaps that is why monks meditate so much... generate all the collected good karma straight to divinity..?? Makes sense..

[Altair]

@TerramineLightvoid..

You are accusing women of being responsible for getting raped and ''choosing'' to be feminine.
That is both sad and ridiculous..

[7luminaries]

7L..
Thanks for the summary of the concepts..:hug3:

I agree they are all rather problematic. Utilitarianism is something I tend to dislike, because it’s not only non-spiritual but also careless. A utility approach to people and the enviromment is very troubling but unfortunately very common. The environment for instance is often reduced to whatever economic “use” it has (“resources”/“ecosystem services”) to people, which has led to very destructive and careless treatment of it and of living beings. This is a much deeper issue that is also closely linked to popular religion and how they view humanity’s place in the world (“king of creation”/“God’s special children”). Now of course we are special ((as are chameleons and oak trees etc.)) but I think we tend to go about that the wrong way..
Hello there Altair -- you're quite welcome :hug3:
I too have a particular aversion to utilitarianism particularly as you describe it, in its amoral form...where the ends justify the means, according to our whim, to our "determination" of what is of the "greatest" or "best" utility. In nearly all cases, it does not align with the greatest good of all humanity, nor with sustainability, nor much less with of all Gaia or of all that is.

Relativism can be true at times but all too often gives people lazy excuses, along the lines off “But we can’t say anything about the dog eaters. It’s their culture” and “You can’t criticize female corcumcision, it’s their culture”, as if those people or the dogs have no feelings or can’t suffer as soon as they exist in a different human society. But yeah, can’t criticize.. the powerful are entitled and all of that.

The suffering is universal and can be observed..
Context exists but is no cheap sofa for relaxation..
Relativism, like amorality, is lazy because it lacks the capacity for discernment according to what is right-aligned or misaligned.
It is lazy by mandate and cannot be other than what it is.
With discernment regarding right-alignment comes the most basic and innate wisdom, which allows for taking choices AND taking ownership of said choices. No matter how limited or conscripted our physical or social environment appears to be, there are always choices to be had. For example, even in the most egregiously brutal or oppressive situations where the choice is do or die, we still have a choice -- and BTW death is not the worst option and may be the far better choice. George Carlin had a whole monologue about this in his later years -- it was powerful and I highly recommend.

There might be contextual differences, cases of “We need to survive, it’s our last hope” and “Our army needs to make a move to protect the innocent people” but these extreme cases do not change the norms, and THAT is something that is sadly missed too often. Also, if we need to rely on violence it probably tells us something about our own karma as well, hopelessly stuck in those chains. Some people think relativism is intellectually clever but it’s not, it’s often lazy..!! :tongue:
Yes, agreed. It does. And it says we are not there yet. We still cannot accept What Is nor even our fellow human beings but instead need to (attempt) to control and cherry-pick the universe as if a pitiful, derivative, stunted thing of soley our own stunted creation could ever compare. It would be hell...and so long as we use our power to inflict pain and suffering on the weaker and the more vulnerable in this futile effort to be our own twisted notion of GOD, of One -- the pitiful irony is that we cannot see that we are the primary source of our own hell and suffering, as well as theirs.

If an action causes suffering than it creates karma, and so does a ‘beneficial’ or ‘loving’ action, apparently! :tongue: So we’re left with the question what karma do we wish to reap..? I wonder how one can even transcend the good karma. At least, in Buddhism and Jainism it’s said that too much good karma means an incarnation into a heavenly realm, yet no enlightenment. Just a lot of luxury and enjoyment. Perhaps that is why monks meditate so much... generate all the collected good karma straight to divinity..?? Makes sense..
Yes. Good karma doesn't generate enlightenment until you choose to dedicate the merit of all you do to the highest good of all. Directly to one and all and to One and All. And mean it ;)

Good karma isn't a reward per se...it's an opportunity! For grace and service. At least a fair bit of that being service on behalf of amends making for all past. Humility, contrition, repentence, forgiveness. All of that, as well as loving and serving the neighbour , the vulnerable, and the stranger amongst us.

As ever, it is all about intention and choice.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

@TerramineLightvoid..

You are accusing women of being responsible for getting raped and ''choosing'' to be feminine.
That is both sad and ridiculous..




Agreed, Altair.
The degree of misogyny reflected in TSV's post is so extreme, and his rejection of basic facts on the ground so complete, that there is little to no common ground upon which to dialogue or respond.

He could simply say he doesn't agree but without clearly stating that women who are raped or abused deserve it and it's also their fault if they are not as tall, big, strong, and powerful as men :rolleyes: However, he's done us the great kindness of making his fear and loathing as transparent as possible, and for that, I must thank him for removing all doubt :D

This is of course, inflammatory and extreme, and goes against the reality on the ground, in which women are built entiredly differently and are not as tall, big, strong, or powerful.

I further observe that his tone toward me reflects a pattern, as he has been similarly uncivil, and unnecessarily aggressive, in his responses to you and others. In TSV's aggressive and hostile response, his courtesy to me simply as a person is lacking. Civil discourse is difficult at best in with such person.

I will not respond. It is RARE that I would say this, but...what's the point? At this time and place, in this now moment, I don't think there's much else to say to someone that says you (a woman, and all women) deserve to be raped and it's your fault you're weaker and more vulnerable -- too bad, so sad.

I think someone who would say such a thing in close response to the woman earlier who actually said she had been repeatedly raped has himself committed an unspeakably vile act against that woman and all women really. And all young women, and all girls...they're all asking for it, right? All of them.

I'll leave it right there. I pity TSV. But I also don't wish to engage further with this level of misogyny and hatred. And I thank you for your courtesy and decency, on behalf of the other half of the sky.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[ketzer]

I will not respond. It is RARE that I would say this, but...what's the point? At this time and place, in this now moment, I don't think there's much else to say to someone that says you (a woman, and all women) deserve to be raped and it's your fault you're weaker and more vulnerable -- too bad, so sad.


Well now, brevity has never been my strong suit, but for once I believe I managed to say the same thing with far less words. I simply placed a name on my ignore list.

But I do appreciate all you have said here, and particularly the line I included above. I think it shows in action the principal I tried to explain in an earlier post. We all create our own realities, and one can create a reality for themselves in which rape is perfectly acceptable. However, one is likely to find themselves alone in such a reality as most (unfortunately one can't say all) are going to be unwilling to share this reality with them. And so we see one more person shake their head and choose to move on rather then engage.

If nobody ever wants to come into ones house, perhaps it needs a good cleaning out.

[Altair]

I do think it could be good if more women did self defence, if not just to feel more confident and assertive, though realistically a serious predator will often have his way unfortunately - whether you're woman or man - and will pick his right moment and then it's often too late. Reducing that chance by taking up self defence could help but percentage wise I'm not sure how much. Being a tall, muscular woman might help but not every woman can achieve that. It also begs the question why this should even be necessary. It's like saying we better all start carrying a gun everywhere for self defence. What sort of a society does this create? More fear, and a sense of a short term solution..

But whether one takes up a self defence course or not, women are generally easier targets, so this notion that they're just entitled princesses choosing to be weak and feminine is outlandish. I think it would also help to anyone in the dark is to understand that many women live with the stress of being targeted on a frequent basis. It's why men and women also have different spatial behaviour patterns in cities and during travels. I've seen men, one guy even did it in the presence of women, making the same arguments as TLV did, and it just shows they don't have female friends or ever talked about it with women..

But considering the topic is ''karma'' (:D) possibly we transform it by understanding things and not by staying in an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth perspective. The cycle of ignorance and hatred can only be broken with understanding and kindness, so more self defence (and possibly carrying a gun or knife at all times) doesn't lead to proper development to a better society, nor does it lead us to tackling the root of the problem here..

[TerramineLightvoid]

@TerramineLightvoid..

You are accusing women of being responsible for getting raped and ''choosing'' to be feminine.
That is both sad and ridiculous..

If you want to Red Herring and Strawman Fallacy my words, aka putting words in my mouth, then sure.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Agreed, Altair.
The degree of misogyny reflected in TSV's post is so extreme.

So basically, your whole response to me is passive aggressively targeting me indirectly by just circle jerking with Altair? Cool story bro.


And his rejection of basic facts on the ground so complete, that there is little to no common ground upon which to dialogue or respond.

You wanna talk facts on the ground? Watch this youtube channel, look for videos on modern day feminism, sexism, etc: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjNxszyFPasDdRoD9J6X-sw

Everything this guy says is fact, including up to science and government statistics, etc. He calls out all of the common misinformation spread by tumblr and youtube.


He could simply say he doesn't agree but without clearly stating that women who are raped or abused deserve it and it's also their fault if they are not as tall, big, strong, and powerful as men :rolleyes:
Because that's totally the variables at play in situations where people are in... a situation. That they CHOOSE to be in? It's undeniably logical that a person is responsible when they choose to enable and pretty much GO TO the abuse itself. Intimidation is not a valid excuse to waiver responsibility. Does it warrant question of whether other responsibility still lies on the abuser's side? Of course it does, and of course ultimately a person who is abused is never justified.

The problem is, you turn that into a fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

An Ad Hominem. Even if you were right(Protip: You're not. And how hilarious you can't see how fallacious it is to cry "sexist" and "rape supporter" when someone challenges the propaganda to slander and skew the image of Men and to create a sexist culture and a reverse-rape culture against CIS Males.) it wouldn't make the logical deductions I assert false, and it would also be pertinent to ask in what sense and to what degree. But that doesn't matter to you cause you can just do the thing all the kids these days are doin and cry racist or sexist or whatever and shut them out and pretend like you won. Like a pidgeon playing chess. He just knocks over the board in frustration and takes a dump on it.

Anyways, you'll never be able to change the facts, the only one being uncivil or biased and even Sexist(Misandry is sexism too, or did you buy the cop out that you can't be sexist against men? Which would be convenient considering you are more than willing to cry Misogynist yourself.)

I don't hate anyone, or judge people on the BASIS of their race or sex. My whole speech basically said "Women should do what Men do and be like Men". Meaning I perceive them as equal on a role and capability basis. I've been victimized my whole life, including up to molestation. So I have a right to open my mouth on the subject. You can say people deal with it differently, but that will always be subjective. Mostly it's about opportunity and knowledge. Even men won't take a grasp on their own responsibility for their own fate if they don't have the right wisdom. Meanwhile culturally[This is simply an objective observation, rhetorically and anecdotally asserted, not a reflection of biology.] you are the one being sexist when you say women are any more or less vulnerable than men, and then on top of that it is purely your opinion or your attempt to gleam the truth of what people do about that. I know for a fact how responsibility works, and how we only have ourselves to blame if we squander our gift of life by God.


However, he's done us the great kindness of making his fear and loathing as transparent as possible, and for that, I must thank him for removing all doubt :D

Literally 100% personal insult/slander of character.


This is of course, inflammatory and extreme, and goes against the reality on the ground, in which women are built entiredly differently and are not as tall, big, strong, or powerful.

The hypocrisy of the average mindless drone, is completely unsurprising. It's literally symptomatic of not being able to be honest.


I further observe that his tone toward me reflects a pattern, as he has been similarly uncivil, and unnecessarily aggressive, in his responses to you and others. In TSV's aggressive and hostile response, his courtesy to me simply as a person is lacking. Civil discourse is difficult at best in with such person.
I'm aggressive for having a different opinion/conclusion about the truth?

[TerramineLightvoid]

Well now, brevity has never been my strong suit, but for once I believe I managed to say the same thing with far less words. I simply placed a name on my ignore list.

But I do appreciate all you have said here, and particularly the line I included above. I think it shows in action the principal I tried to explain in an earlier post. We all create our own realities, and one can create a reality for themselves in which rape is perfectly acceptable. However, one is likely to find themselves alone in such a reality as most (unfortunately one can't say all) are going to be unwilling to share this reality with them. And so we see one more person shake their head and choose to move on rather then engage.

If nobody ever wants to come into ones house, perhaps it needs a good cleaning out.
You basically ended the argument with absolute unfettered slander and ad hominem and basically because someone actually speaks facts to disagree, that show you to be wrong. You just resort to attacking the person like literally 99% of all people in the modern age because they are mindless drones who are just shills swallow the rat poison from their overlords.

And the overwhelming Misandry of both of you speaks volumes to prove how right I am bout everything. Sorry, y'all aren't going to win this war. Too many people already aren't willing to just swallow the bull**** pill of demonizing men. Especially men, you can't sell the slander to the people you're slandering and they make up literally 50% of the population so this issue rests in a grey stalemate of having to repeat the same mistakes over and over because now that sexism against women is FACTUALLY OVER, men are being oppressed for an undeniable fact. They have been for as long as women and the denial and demonization of men is just leading to a war between the sexes because unlike most women who have been culturally conditioned to be complacent to oppression. Men haven't(At least, not in the same sense. Their nature is conditioned to be dominant and to be the voice which says "suck it up" when they themselves or someone else falls and scrapes their knee. It's the voice that playing the ROLE of the victim, is to simply thrive off of it in ways that aren't congruent with what being the victim means whether generally or specific to the violation.)

10 years from now. We're gonna be somewhere inbetween. It's gonna be cool to acknowledge the real source of the issue and how it plays out immeasurably for both sides and thus it can't be an argument of invalidating one side's misgivings over the other's.

[TerramineLightvoid]

Also I just want to say that this topic is not about sexism. I was not the one who originally brought it up, little alone biasedly. So I responded to 1 post in this thread and Ketzer is literally just jumping in and creating more drama because he's mad I told him he's wrong about other **** that is actually more on-topic and not politics or whathaveyou.

People could have just ignored my post if it bothered them so much in their cognitive dissonance to actually for 2 seconds hear something that contradicts their normal flow of info and culture. Instead they had to just degrade into sheer disrespect because their drinking the coolaid too much. Shrug.

[Altair]

If you want to Red Herring and Strawman Fallacy my words, aka putting words in my mouth, then sure.
I didn't make any straw man fallacy, chap..
You said yourself that women ''CHOOSE'' to be feminine and choose to be in situations where they get abused.
It was on the previous page and some of it in the first post on this page..


Just one example, first post on this page you say:
It's undeniably logical that a person is responsible when they choose to enable and pretty much GO TO the abuse itself.

How does anyone ''choose to enable'' abuse? How does anyone ''go to'' the abuse? Who in this world is choosing to be abused..?

[TerramineLightvoid]

I didn't make any straw man fallacy, chap..
You said yourself that women ''CHOOSE'' to be feminine and choose to be in situations where they get abused.
It was on the previous page and some of it in the first post on this page..
The Straw Man and Red Herring is that I said there are examples of specific situations where women are responsible for the situation just as much as the other person.

You then resorted to emotional appeal fallacy to direct into a straw man/red herring that, what I just said, is EQUIVALENT to making an absolute and /general/ statement that all rape victims are to be blamed for what has happened to them.

What I said wasn't a general/absolute statement. It was not reflective upon the generality and fundamentality of Rape. It was not a statement that "Women are to be blamed for being raped." and if anything that is an absurdly gross intellectual dishonesty on your part. Very deliberately so. You changed the context and slandered my character by making me look like a villain that is just being evil to be evil.

Rather than being Amoral/Neutral and making the /objective/ statement that the definition of Rape or Abuse of any kind requires a /lack of consent/. In which I pointed out that plenty of people put themselves into situations by deliberately avoiding their own ability to make a difference.




How does anyone ''choose to enable'' abuse? How does anyone ''go to'' the abuse? Who in this world is choosing to be abused..?


What's funny is if you actually go back and read what I had said, it can be explicitly shown that I was SPECIFICALLY talking about "Marriage Rape" and similar situations. Again, it wasn't a general or vague statement meant to reflect upon all situations. So when y'all flipped out and said what you did, 90% of what I said had nothing to do with that and wasn't conducive to that.

You made it sound like the whole argument. What WAS stated rather generally, was a more overarching message in regards to Sexism/Oppression. It was majority WOMEN who voted against the right to vote because they didn't want to be drafted. They were more than happy to let the men die for them and to be the pampered princess. Feminists themselves say that there are countless women who are essentially "enabling the patriarchy" or even outright "fighting for it".

It can't be sexist, if a Woman is doing it. That's called Voluntary Submission, is all. Anyways the point is. Look up Stockholm Syndrome. Tallk to people who have witnessed or been a part of domestic abuse, etc. You'll know what people are talking about when they say someone "wants to be abused".

The excuses and rationalizations people will make to scapegoat their own responsibility to do something about the situation, are as numerous as grains of sand.

[Altair]

You have very clearly stated that women choose to be feminine and choose to enable abuse. Your words, not mine. You are very much blaming the victim throughout your posts and now that you've been cornered you're coming up with a charade that you were ''misunderstood'', eschewing responsibility for what you said in your posts.

Anyways. I'm done with your incessant ranting. You are rather unpleasant to converse with and very bitter..
I rarely put people on my ignore list but I will do so now.

[janielee]

Someone on this thread really hates women. And I had thought it was a rare myth.

mi·sog·y·ny

dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
"she felt she was struggling against thinly disguised misogyny"

[7luminaries]

So basically, your whole response to me is passive aggressively targeting me indirectly by just circle jerking with Altair? Cool story bro.

You wanna talk facts on the ground? Watch this youtube channel, look for videos on modern day feminism, sexism, etc: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjNxszyFPasDdRoD9J6X-sw

Everything this guy says is fact, including up to science and government statistics, etc. He calls out all of the common misinformation spread by tumblr and youtube.

Because that's totally the variables at play in situations where people are in... a situation. That they CHOOSE to be in? It's undeniably logical that a person is responsible when they choose to enable and pretty much GO TO the abuse itself. Intimidation is not a valid excuse to waiver responsibility. Does it warrant question of whether other responsibility still lies on the abuser's side? Of course it does, and of course ultimately a person who is abused is never justified.

The problem is, you turn that into a fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

An Ad Hominem. Even if you were right(Protip: You're not. And how hilarious you can't see how fallacious it is to cry "sexist" and "rape supporter" when someone challenges the propaganda to slander and skew the image of Men and to create a sexist culture and a reverse-rape culture against CIS Males.) it wouldn't make the logical deductions I assert false, and it would also be pertinent to ask in what sense and to what degree. But that doesn't matter to you cause you can just do the thing all the kids these days are doin and cry racist or sexist or whatever and shut them out and pretend like you won. Like a pidgeon playing chess. He just knocks over the board in frustration and takes a dump on it.

Anyways, you'll never be able to change the facts, the only one being uncivil or biased and even Sexist(Misandry is sexism too, or did you buy the cop out that you can't be sexist against men? Which would be convenient considering you are more than willing to cry Misogynist yourself.)

I don't hate anyone, or judge people on the BASIS of their race or sex. My whole speech basically said "Women should do what Men do and be like Men". Meaning I perceive them as equal on a role and capability basis. I've been victimized my whole life, including up to molestation. So I have a right to open my mouth on the subject. You can say people deal with it differently, but that will always be subjective. Mostly it's about opportunity and knowledge.

Even men won't take a grasp on their own responsibility for their own fate if they don't have the right wisdom. Meanwhile culturally[This is simply an objective observation, rhetorically and anecdotally asserted, not a reflection of biology.] you are the one being sexist when you say women are any more or less vulnerable than men, and then on top of that it is purely your opinion or your attempt to gleam the truth of what people do about that. I know for a fact how responsibility works, and how we only have ourselves to blame if we squander our gift of life by God.

Literally 100% personal insult/slander of character.

The hypocrisy of the average mindless drone, is completely unsurprising. It's literally symptomatic of not being able to be honest.

I'm aggressive for having a different opinion/conclusion about the truth? TSV -- women are not men, full stop. And they cannot be made to become men, full stop. Raping women and then blaming them &/or living in denial as men will not change the reality on the ground. Looks like you have a real problem with accepting the reality on the ground. Yet no matter how you rant and thrash, woman are not men -- and so you cannot fashion reality to fit your purported perception. That's a real quandary you've got there.

However, you also vaguely acknowledge even men aren't perfect. WHAT a shocker. In all seriousness, I commend you on that piece of wisdom, but as it stands it is sorely inadequate to the needs of any fully realised human being who is consciously walking his or her path. To that end, IMO you would be well served to consciously seek to continue much further on the path of authentic love, in equanimity and compassion. I would say the same to anyone, but in your case, with perhaps a bit more urgency :D

Taking ownership not only means respecting and accepting women by neither raping them nor blaming them for the rapes of other men. Taking ownership also means respecting and accepting women's experiences and respecting and accepting the reality on the ground. Not just your lived reality, but the lived realities of others, as well.

Despite my initial revulsion and disgust at such blatant misogyny, I also have some compassion for you and anyone else who is struggling so deeply with accepting the reality within which we currently live. Until we accept reality as it is, there will be little we can do to contribute in any meaningful way. Good luck to you on that.

The reality is, most women have experienced sexual assault of some kind (by definition, it is unwanted and univited), including violence, abuse, manual groping and digital or object penetration (rape), and/or one or more of the following other forms of rape -- date rape, coercion, force, &/or attempted rape. Either as children, as young women, and/or as adults.

I wish you all the best on your journey. However, until and unless you are able to accept the reality on the ground, you're going to have to discuss with someone else, not me. This acceptance includes honouring the reality of the suffering of the weak and vulnerable at the hands of the stronger and more powerful. Such as that put forth by the other poster a few pages back when she disclosed she was assaulted and raped, after which you disparaged her and all women by saying women deserved to be raped and abused and it's their fault they're not men.

You haven't walked a mile in her moccasins (nor in those of any woman), and you've no right to judge or disparage her nor any of us for the sufferings forced upon us. No one here blames or judges you for any assault or rape you may have experienced, and I would strongly recommend you extend the same courtesy to others. To blame or judge others for their weakness and the violence inflicted upon them, particularly when due to their inherent physical weakness and vulnerability, is unspeakable vile and loathsome behaviour.

This is your response. Do not respond further to me, or I'll be forced to report your posts to the mods, as well as putting you on ignore. Instead, I recommend self-reflection and meditation regarding why you struggle to accept and honour the stated experiences of others for what they are. Perhaps we'll talk again months or years down the road after you've had time to reflect. Or perhaps not, it's all good.

Peace,
7L

[Miss Hepburn]

Interesting. I was listening to an interview with Natalie Sudman...
one of the most
interesting NDEs I've ever read...it helps that she has a high IQ.
Her book is deeper than any interview.

She spoke about karma and that it was about consequences...how to her understanding it is not something
that is absolute (my words).
She spoke about Jesus stepping out of this 'energy' of karma and how we can also---- with forgiveness.:smile:
When we forgive ourselves...
we no longer need to believe in this sowing and reaping because we have forgiven ourselves.

Ethan Fox was the interviewer if you search for it...I just rem it was around 1hr 22 min in...

[7luminaries]

Hello Miss H. :)
I haven't listened to the interview. I also know that universal laws are simply what it and don't require belief, per se. What we have done in the past has had effects on ourselves and others, and likewise the same for them. Love is the answer as is coming to live in our centre, and to be and do love moment-to-moment. And there are specific ways in which to manifest that love on the ground which bring healing to trauma.

Ms. Sud sounds like she is trying to convey that forgiveness is transformative. It is! Repentence is transformative. It is. Reconciliation is transformative. It is. :D

The deepest of these is reconciliation...involving forgiveness and repetence and transformation and healing all round...and at the deepest levels.

But reconciliation is built upon the pillars of forgiveness and repentence, the true work of building the spirit and the character, the eternal soul.

I've noticed that when many speak of forgiveness, the rest of this is not discussed but may be implicit or understood. Forgiveness can open the door to true change and growth (in truth and right-alignment, with lovingkindness). Likewise, remorse and contrition open the door to repentence, to true change and growth (in truth and right-alignment, with equanimity).

We need them both. And most of all, we need reconciliation and healing, the fruits of all forgiveness and repentence.

Perhaps forgiveness is the greater block for many and thus why it is often emphasised. And that makes sense.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Uday_Advaita]

For last few days, I have been observing posts on this string,

I wish to quote a para from the book “Awakening to the Dream” by Leo Hartong
(I would certainly recommend this book)

Quote

“Let me ask you a question. Where did the event of ‘you’ have its beginning? Was it at birth, at conception, or when your grandparents’ grandparents met? No matter where you draw the line, it will be arbitrary and defines an artificial boundary. In the game of day-to-day living, these conceptual borders come in handy; but most of us have long forgotten that they are entirely conceptual.”

Unquote.

I wish all my friends to contemplate on the above.

Is it not high time that we should stop ascribing “personal doer-ship” to a conceptual ‘me’ and a conceptual ‘you’ and awaken to our impersonal, formless and blissful nature.
Namaskar

[7luminaries]

"Who" will be left to contemplate or discuss these ponderable you (individual not plural) put forth? ;)

There are grounded, manifest reasons why we discuss from the perspective of individuated consciousness. Mainly having to do that the level to which you refer will not be consciously experienced by any of us for any meaningful length of time. Meaning, for any span of time in which we can also function in this physical realm.

Therefore the most meaningful strides or movements toward centre lie in real, manifest, actualized behavior and perspectives centred in authentic love (reflecting Love or One). Authentic love as lovingkindness from equanimity. Karma is relevant in this broad context and can be apprehended and realised and manifested at both individual and collective levels.

At the level of One, you could say nothing is relevant, including karma. Or I could say everything is relevant, including karma. Either way, we can say very little else about it except that, as Buddha said, (we can strive to) know the emptiness, but do not dwell there. So IMO discussions where we actually suppose that we (as individuated consciousness who exist in interbeing with all that is) apprehend emptiness in any depth or breadth are pleasant and inspiring but usually fairly short.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[WildHairedWoman]

There's people who believe they can ''create their reality'', in the most literal sense. But there's a mistake in seeing the choices presented with having absolute freedom without consequences. To put it simply, we won't fly by just flapping our arms when we jump off a building. Having strong beliefs to the contrary won't save us. People on drugs can believe such things and act upon it, they have strong belief but then it kills them. Same way some of us may think we can smoke, drink, or eat junk year in year out without consequences. Eventually reality will catch up with all of us..

I have spoken out against solipsism and extreme relativism a lot because these are dangerous philosophies. They're morally questionable and can lead to unhealthy outcomes, either to the enthusiastic follower or to others, people or animals. There's a sense of ''I can do as I please, it's all relative'' or ''It's all illusion'' and all of this is not really well aligned with any notion of karma..

If we are divine beings of love and compassion than it makes sense to try and live in accordance with that, and don't just have an ''anything goes'' mentality about it. True, in practice we are never purists but we can all try our best. So sure, there is relativism, but any extreme relativism is as nonsensical as claiming to have zero impact or collecting zero karma as an incarnated human in this world. We can recognize relativism, but some go overboard using it as a means to excuse any activity or claim anything is possible..




"relativism" is NOT "I can do as I please, anything goes" philosophy. I think you are trying to make something that is subject, objective and force people to choose your truth instead of their own. There are extremist in all belief systems and there is a difference between belief and philosophy.

[Altair]

"relativism" is NOT "I can do as I please, anything goes" philosophy. I think you are trying to make something that is subject, objective and force people to choose your truth instead of their own. There are extremist in all belief systems and there is a difference between belief and philosophy.

Indeed it isn't. 'Healthy' relativism recognizes variety in different human societies. We know that some things are better done in culture x than in culture y. I draw the line at violence, but otherwise you'll have practices that will vary with culture, and that can be fine. I was talking about extreme relativism [the word is in the post you quoted], which does have an anything goes attitude in practice, whether it's about morality or about the nature of reality. I'm puzzled why you have quoted me.. (?)


Therefore the most meaningful strides or movements toward centre lie in real, manifest, actualized behavior and perspectives centred in authentic love (reflecting Love or One). Authentic love as lovingkindness from equanimity. Karma is relevant in this broad context and can be apprehended and realised and manifested at both individual and collective levels.

7L, do you have an example of this..? How does karma manifest on the collective level?
We know we have impact on our world and society as a collective through our activities, choices, voting etc. But I wonder, do we form 'collectives' and live out karma collectively again in a future life..? Say everyone that died in the Rwanda genocidal war, do they all form a karmic bond together and are as a generation reborn elsewhere? Or does every individual goes his/her own way and deal with that karma separately..?

Any other people's insights on this would be appreciated too.

[iamthat]

7L, do you have an example of this..? How does karma manifest on the collective level?
We know we have impact on our world and society as a collective through our activities, choices, voting etc. But I wonder, do we form 'collectives' and live out karma collectively again in a future life..? Say everyone that died in the Rwanda genocidal war, do they all form a karmic bond together and are as a generation reborn elsewhere? Or does every individual goes his/her own way and deal with that karma separately..?

Any other people's insights on this would be appreciated too.

The Ancient Wisdom teaches that there is individual karma, national karma, racial karma and the karma of the human race as a whole. We each deal with our individual karma within the karma of the greater group.

There is also the idea that we as individuals belong to a soul group, and there are larger groupings of soul groups which are themselves part of still larger groups, and so on.

I cannot say how this actually works in practice. But we can point to major events in history (e.g. the American Civil War, the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami) and consider these as examples of individuals experiencing their own karma within the greater karma of greater groups.

Peace.

[Clover]

Hello everyone,


Take a break from this thread. In the future, please do not hijack the threads, SF is a discussion forum not a debate one. Most importantly ,stick to the original subject of the thread. You all went from Karma to rape. Enough with beating a dead horse with that same topic I find in so many threads,

Closing the thread for now as I am cleaning it up a bit. I will reopen soon.

Thanks

Clover