seeing through the illusory self

[Rabanne]

Hi everybody,

does the self exist or is it just an illusion?

How can one see it?

best regards
Rabanne

[neil]

Hi everybody,

does the self exist or is it just an illusion?

How can one see it?

best regards
Rabanne
To answer that question, you would firstly have to give your definition of the self that you are asking about.

Neil.

[Rabanne]

I mean the self/me/mine.

Rabanne

[neil]

I mean the self/me/mine.

Rabanne
Well not many on this forum believe my beliefs, however the self is who you are as a person/being...a Soulbeing...you are not a human being, you are a SOUL being & connected to a non conscious, non intelligent, non sentient earth body, via the energetic silver cord...or so it is labeled that.

You are the self & you exist & you are not illusory.

The Earth body would simply fall to the ground & start decomposing, if you the Soul'self were disconnected from it.

You are reading my words via/through the vision of the earthly form/body...the eyes send what they receive, through to the brain & the brain converts the information into a different content & then sends that content through to the Soul'self/you.
You then have a reaction to that content which triggers a response by you & your response is sent back to the earthly body so that the non conscious etc earthly body opperates in a way, so that you can interact with the Earthly surroundings.

Although you are not the earthly body, you are however connected to it, AND as the Soul'self, you are also enmeshed within your earthly body.

The self is Soul & is in the image of the creator & is invisible.

The Soul, houses the information of the DNA of the earthly physical body, & in spirit the Soul'self emanates an exact duplicate of the earthly body, of which is called the spiritual body...however when you are disconnected from the earthly body & live on without the physical body, you are not the spiritual body either, as at that moment you are still the Soul'self which emanates the non conscious, non intelligent & non sentient spiritual body.

Both the earthly & spiritual bodies are merely a way for you to display a part of your identity & another part of your identity is your personality.

[iamthat]

I mean the self/me/mine.

Rabanne

Do you mean the self as personality? Or the Self as consciousness? or the SELF as Being?

Presuming you mean the self as personality, then its existence depends on our level of identification. If we identify with personality, then it seems real. When our level of identification shifts to the Self as consciousness, then we realise that the personal self is just a collection of habitual patterns through which consciousness expresses itself.

Peace.

[Altair]

does the self exist or is it just an illusion?


Your question is already loaded. Are you aware of this..?

What is ''illusion''...? Perhaps that is something we first need to agree upon in order to proceed any further..

Most people here would have you believe that things that change and are ''impermanent'' are illusion, but I disagree with that.
Just because something changes doesn't mean it's not real. So yes, you exist and even the temporary parts are part of you. Nothing is illusion..

[Rah nam]

Hi everybody,

does the self exist or is it just an illusion?

How can one see it?

best regards
Rabanne



Some have pointed out, first one has to have a common basis of understanding. Otherwise one can talk days on end and just talk past each other.

I see this all the time with the terms
Self
Soul
Spirit
Angels
Devil

and so on.


To say it first, I am spirit, not the physical body nor the mind. So, Self to me is what I am, and what I am connected to. A spirit is always connected to something larger, and what this is can vary. The way I see the Self, it can and mostly is very extensive. It almost always exists in several densities at the same time.
So is the Self an illusion? Not to me. I know how and where I exist.

To go one step further, what I consider my greater Self, of cause is connected to everything else in existence. Ultimately there is only one Self.

[Rabanne]

mhm, most of you are talking about different kinds of selfs. This tells us that everybody has his own interpretation about the self. That means if more people would answer to this question, there will be more varried answers to them. Why are there as much interpretations to the self as much people? If I ask is a tree an illusion, I think the answer is obvious to everybody. But the same question about the self, and the opionions are different.

[janielee]

mhm, most of you are talking about different kinds of selfs. This tells us that everybody has his own interpretation about the self. That means if more people would answer to this question, there will be more varried answers to them. Why are there as much interpretations to the self as much people? If I ask is a tree an illusion, I think the answer is obvious to everybody. But the same question about the self, and the opionions are different.

Hence - the importance of experiential insight; not learned, or book knowledge.

iamthat and Rah Nam sound [to me] like they are coming from similar places, but it's like a tree, if you haven't seen one for yourself, and people talk about oaks and pine and fir, you think it all sounds weird.

When you have real life experience, you start from insight towards words; people who start with concepts towards explanation always stumble in spiritual practice - which is why to ask the question is great - to go and do (and find) a suitable practice which will enable you to FIND THE ANSWER FOR YOURSELF is the gold.

Best wishes in your search.

JL

[God-Like]

self awareness exists, how can it not?

What self associates the awareness with or too is each to their own.

Each to their own just emphasises that there is something associated to self that can think for themselves and have opinions about what self is or isn't .

This something that can think for themselves and experience life as we know it is clearly present .

Ramana stated that awareness becomes consciousness in the presence of a mind-body object .

This mind-body object known as a person is consciously aware .

This mind-body person can think that this construct is illusory or not and some like to say that they do not exist but it is self evident that there is this something present that can think and feel within experience of life .

The only reason the illusory self has even surfaced is due to the realization that what you are exists beyond this mind-body construct .

Millions of spiritual seekers that have not realized this for themselves that read books about no-self or the illusory self would never have thought that self was illusory or not .

This is the problem that is rife nowadays where you can have millions of unrealized individuals arguing about not being here or not or only illusory dream characters are present .

How many who are loving their family members who have not realized what they are beyond the mind-body would question the realness of their loved one's and the realness of their love felt?

I dare say that there would be very few or none at all ..

There is no conspiracy here, there is no God trying to trick anyone into believing that what is present is not real ..



x daz x

[Miss Hepburn]

You want to see yourself?...this is my input:
You have an inner mirror.
Sit in meditation and focus at the 3rd eye area.
Gently hold your eyes still...use your clean palms, your fingers on your eyelids...
use whatever is comfortable and easy.
Leaning your elbows on something helps.
The natural movement of the eyeballs interferes with your mind's laser like focus.
Use good earplugs...the waxy kind is best...not foam.
Sit for hours each day with a sincere focused heart on your Goal.
Have excellent hygiene.

Eat lightly, no heavy spices, beans, garlic, toxic things that could cause body changes, (tobacco,
pot, alcohol, caffeine )...nothing that would cause gas or belching...
that would distract you and make you 'body conscious'.

Sit for hours, relaxed, comfortable and straight so as not to doze off.
Make your mind and heart's intention clear..maybe with a prayer, a statement, a little ritual to
prepare yourself for each session of concentration and stilling the mind.
Turn all distractions off..pet's away someplace.

This is a successful, tried and true technique. :smile:
Google Sant Mat or Radha soami for inspiration.
If you'd like, learn Raja or Kriya Yogic meditation techniques.
If a teacher doesn't teach these, but only has inspiring words...find one who can...if
you go that route.
My take.

[Rabanne]

self awareness exists, how can it not?
x daz x
It doesn't exist If you are sleeping.

[Rabanne]

[COLOR=Black]You want to see yourself?

Yes I want to see myself but now, not in the future.

[Rabanne]

Well not many on this forum believe my beliefs, however the self is who you are as a person/being...a Soulbeing...you are not a human being, you are a SOUL being & connected to a non conscious, non intelligent, non sentient earth body, via the energetic silver cord...or so it is labeled that.

You are the self & you exist & you are not illusory.

The Earth body would simply fall to the ground & start decomposing, if you the Soul'self were disconnected from it.

You are reading my words via/through the vision of the earthly form/body...the eyes send what they receive, through to the brain & the brain converts the information into a different content & then sends that content through to the Soul'self/you.
You then have a reaction to that content which triggers a response by you & your response is sent back to the earthly body so that the non conscious etc earthly body opperates in a way, so that you can interact with the Earthly surroundings.

Although you are not the earthly body, you are however connected to it, AND as the Soul'self, you are also enmeshed within your earthly body.

The self is Soul & is in the image of the creator & is invisible.

The Soul, houses the information of the DNA of the earthly physical body, & in spirit the Soul'self emanates an exact duplicate of the earthly body, of which is called the spiritual body...however when you are disconnected from the earthly body & live on without the physical body, you are not the spiritual body either, as at that moment you are still the Soul'self which emanates the non conscious, non intelligent & non sentient spiritual body.

Both the earthly & spiritual bodies are merely a way for you to display a part of your identity & another part of your identity is your personality.
Have you seen all this happening?

[Rabanne]

Do you mean the self as personality? Or the Self as consciousness? or the SELF as Being?

Presuming you mean the self as personality, then its existence depends on our level of identification. If we identify with personality, then it seems real. When our level of identification shifts to the Self as consciousness, then we realise that the personal self is just a collection of habitual patterns through which consciousness expresses itself.

Peace.
Why identify at all?

[Rabanne]

Your question is already loaded. Are you aware of this..?

What is ''illusion''...? Perhaps that is something we first need to agree upon in order to proceed any further..

Most people here would have you believe that things that change and are ''impermanent'' are illusion, but I disagree with that.
Just because something changes doesn't mean it's not real. So yes, you exist and even the temporary parts are part of you. Nothing is illusion..

Illusion is a concept about .......

[Miss Hepburn]

Yes I want to see myself but now, not in the future. Good luck with that.

[Altair]

Illusion is a concept about .......

Allow me to fill that in :)
Illusion is a concept about imagination, just like so many other spiritual abstract concepts..

There is no “illusion”. What we see, taste, smell is real. There is more, BUT that doesn’t make THIS reality any less real! If you jump off a tower you will die no matter how hard you believe you can fly. We don’t live in a matrix. I have heard of some people who believe this (usually on drugs) do such things and they end up dead..

[Moondance]

Hi everybody,

does the self exist or is it just an illusion?

How can one see it?

best regards
Rabanne

Hi Rabanne. Welcome to the forum.

It depends on what is meant by self.

1. Self = a synonym for ‘me’, myself or person/persona.

2. Self = essential, immutable, independent inner nature which is the thinker of thoughts, feeler of feelings, doer of doings etc.

3. Self = a placeholder for the inexplicable source, 'stuff' and totality of things.

Often the designation ‘self’ is used alongside ‘me’ or ‘person’ to mean a specific body-mind-system. In this usage the self does (obviously) have an ontology - but it’s not an entity, it is a temporal, ever-shifting dependently-arisen matrix - it’s an activity not a thing.

If self is used to imply a separate, immutable, independent inner-essence (or soul) then this is a misapprehension (or illusion if you like) since no such thing can be found.

The third use is the Self (capital S) of Advaita. A synonym for the ineffable Source, Reality, Life, Totality, Being, Tao, God etc. How to not see it? It’s THIS… right now… before you take your next breath.

[Miss Hepburn]

Illusion? It must be experienced personally.
Otherwise, it is a word you've heard thrown around that means nothing.
Understandable and no fault to the person, at all.

Btw, I experienced the world was a dream, made of dreamstuff, an illusion, unreal at 8 yrs old ...
in a stunning couple of moments in the country in central NY one summer day...and many more times (with NO drugs, lol).
Why, how? Beats me.
But, I can tell you...I know the sound of one hand clapping!!!:wink:
I know that every single second is absolute perfection and meant to be;
And the meaning of every word Lao Tzu spoke of...I should by now!!
I'm old enough.
And, I know, now, how to break the cycle of me coming back here again and again!!! Yay!

That's just the way it is..no bravado here, but a lot of gratitude and awe, I'll tellya!!
And I'm here ready to aid anyone I can that asks.

First, I'd say, read, 'The Disappearance of the Universe', to open a person to some new concepts
about creation that are not spoken of everyday...a bit esoteric.
Then, move on to 'The Way of Mastery';
For those adults tired of the child's play of questioning others.
And the neat thing is, It's all self study!..no groups, no donations, and none of that awful
singing for 20 min on a Sunday morning.:tongue:

[iamthat]

Why identify at all?

Because we have no choice. Identification is where our level of consciousness naturally rests. For most people in incarnation, consciousness naturally rests in form, for the rare few, consciousness rests in formlessness.

Peace.

[iamthat]

Allow me to fill that in :)
Illusion is a concept about imagination, just like so many other spiritual abstract concepts..

There is no “illusion”. What we see, taste, smell is real. There is more, BUT that doesn’t make THIS reality any less real! If you jump off a tower you will die no matter how hard you believe you can fly. We don’t live in a matrix. I have heard of some people who believe this (usually on drugs) do such things and they end up dead..

Another way to consider this is that everything is real on its own level but it may be an illusion when considered from a higher level.

So if we bang our head then it hurts and the pain is real while it lasts. But the pain is temporary and is confined to the physical body, and so it is an illusion from a greater perspective.

As an alternative to the idea of maya, usually translated as illusion, we could use the word mithya meaning a relative reality.

Peace.

[Rah nam]

Another way to consider this is that everything is real on its own level but it may be an illusion when considered from a higher level.

I agree...

[janielee]

Because we have no choice. Identification is where our level of consciousness naturally rests. For most people in incarnation, consciousness naturally rests in form, for the rare few, consciousness rests in formlessness.

Peace.

It's a pity that it's a rare few, isn't it? Hopefully there'll be more and more :smile:

JL

[God-Like]

It doesn't exist If you are sleeping.

How do you mean sleeping?

What is referred too as deep sleep or when one's body rests at night?

Deep sleep there is always awareness of I AM .

When the body rests at night one's mindful spirit is always conscious of oneself it's just that most don't remember being so.

Some do become aware of being conscious OBE as have I.


x daz x

[God-Like]

Another way to consider this is that everything is real on its own level but it may be an illusion when considered from a higher level.

So if we bang our head then it hurts and the pain is real while it lasts. But the pain is temporary and is confined to the physical body, and so it is an illusion from a greater perspective.

As an alternative to the idea of maya, usually translated as illusion, we could use the word mithya meaning a relative reality.

Peace.

I am always an advocate of keeping platforms and dimensions in there own laws of creation .

This is why what is physical isn't physical in the world of spirit for examples sake .

The tree in the physical is not governed by the same laws as the tree in the world of spirit is and yet they are both trees within experience .

It could be said from each planes perspective that the other is illusory but all that reflects is a comparison of what things are like from different realities .

This is why no self beyond mind cannot be compared to self of the mind .

These comparisons don't work, they were never mean't to be compared in such a way where the person gets tarred with the illusory brush .



x daz x

[zorkchop]

iamthat and janielee . . .

Please explain to the post / thread . . .

“consciousness rests in the formlessness”

I agree . . . so there is no contention here. But . . . to and for those that might not understand what this “formlessness” might be . . . please provide some degree of definition or guidelines. And yes . . . it *can* be so described . . . at least to the point where one can get a good yet vague realization of it.

So . . . what is . . . this formlessness . . . or . . . are you suggesting that it is a complete empty void in which there is nothing . . . form . . . formless . . . or any other recognizable feature or non-feature?

[ImthatIm]

Find the real.
Then you can sort out illusion.
Until one touches the real they will believe the illusion is the real.
I believe many call it awakening.
Words can be a barrier.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

seeing through the illusory self

Seeing ... looking, observing ... the pristinity necessarily excluding memory drawn imagery, preconceptions, ideas, beliefs ...

Getting to such an orientation, presence observing ... akin to meditating!

As for illusory self ... it is judgment to so judge without knowing, is it not?

Assume nothing.

Just being ... still enough ... long enough and we know. A knowing requiring no validation.

Love & Light

***

[Rabanne]

[COLOR=Black]BUT that doesn’t make THIS reality any less real!
It makes only a difference in how we react to them.

[Miss Hepburn]

It's a pity that it's a rare few, isn't it? Hopefully there'll be more and more :smile:
JLActually it isn't a 'pity', my friend...it's all part of the Cosmic Dance. It just is.
:hug3:

Remembering the 'non-duality' of reality is imp on our Path...these
little slips in our words shows the lack of this very necessary understanding.
Saying it is good, bad, a pity...keeps our subconscious mind locked into this false concept.
Just giving some unsolicited advice to a brother on the same Path, as usual !!
LOL :wink:

[Rabanne]

You want to see yourself?...this is my input:
You have an inner mirror.
Sit in meditation and focus at the 3rd eye area.
Gently hold your eyes still...use your clean palms, your fingers on your eyelids...
use whatever is comfortable and easy.
Leaning your elbows on something helps.
The natural movement of the eyeballs interferes with your mind's laser like focus.
Use good earplugs...the waxy kind is best...not foam.
Sit for hours each day with a sincere focused heart on your Goal.
Have excellent hygiene.

Eat lightly, no heavy spices, beans, garlic, toxic things that could cause body changes, (tobacco,
pot, alcohol, caffeine )...nothing that would cause gas or belching...
that would distract you and make you 'body conscious'.

Sit for hours, relaxed, comfortable and straight so as not to doze off.
Make your mind and heart's intention clear..maybe with a prayer, a statement, a little ritual to
prepare yourself for each session of concentration and stilling the mind.
Turn all distractions off..pet's away someplace.

This is a successful, tried and true technique. :smile:
Google Sant Mat or Radha soami for inspiration.
If you'd like, learn Raja or Kriya Yogic meditation techniques.
If a teacher doesn't teach these, but only has inspiring words...find one who can...if
you go that route.
My take.

I do not want to learn anything new, I want to finally see one by one what everyone here is talking about.

[Rabanne]

Hi Rabanne. Welcome to the forum.

How to not see it? It’s THIS… right now… before you take your next breath.
Hi Moondance. Thank you for welcoming me here :hug3:

I can't see it, because I never heard about it. I know only the first variation of the selfs namely 1.

[Rabanne]

Another way to consider this is that everything is real on its own level but it may be an illusion when considered from a higher level.

So if we bang our head then it hurts and the pain is real while it lasts. But the pain is temporary and is confined to the physical body, and so it is an illusion from a greater perspective.

As an alternative to the idea of maya, usually translated as illusion, we could use the word mithya meaning a relative reality.

Peace.
Are you now in that higher level and seeing all things from a greater perspective? If yes, how can I accompany you there?

[Rabanne]

When the body rests at night one's mindful spirit is always conscious of oneself it's just that most don't remember being so.
x daz x
luckily :-)

[Rabanne]

Find the real.
Then you can sort out illusion.
Until one touches the real they will believe the illusion is the real.
I believe many call it awakening.
Words can be a barrier.
And how can I tell the difference between real and illusion?

[Rabanne]

***

seeing through the illusory self

Seeing ... looking, observing ... the pristinity necessarily excluding memory drawn imagery, preconceptions, ideas, beliefs ...

Getting to such an orientation, presence observing ... akin to meditating!

As for illusory self ... it is judgment to so judge without knowing, is it not?

Assume nothing.

Just being ... still enough ... long enough and we know. A knowing requiring no validation.

Love & Light

***
how to exclude memory drawn imagery, preconceptions, ideas, beliefs?

[Unseeking Seeker]

how to exclude memory drawn imagery, preconceptions, ideas, beliefs?

***

First of all, we do not struggle ... any doing as a doer is counterproductive!

Initially, as a visualisation (later it becomes natural), imagine ourself as formless awareness as our default constitution who has for the moment chosen to ensoul this bodily form.

The body includes senses and the thinking process. Thinking is bifurcated into analytical and intuitive aspects. The analytical is the ego based doer mode ... a thinker thinking thoughts limited by experience of the limited known, that too coloured by perception and contoured by conditioning. The intuitive aspect is discouraged because it is ‘illogical’ and the doer disappears in it, which our limited self or ego does not like! The intuitive aspect allows us to connect and tap into Universal consciousness.

So, we as formless awareness looking at form. Looking without associating. Nonchalant observation. We are not but what is then that which is? Presence. Non-ego self presence.

Viewing some Eckhart Tolle videos might offer clarity on this.

This is also the essence of meditation. What happens during meditation? We are aware but without identity. We empty ourselves, so to speak and in stillness, just be. This allows the Divine energy to pour Itself into the void we have created within. Doing nothing, we simply cognise, imbibe and assimilate the flow.

Hope this explanation helps.

***

[Moondance]

Hi Moondance. Thank you for welcoming me here :hug3:

I can't see it, because I never heard about it. I know only the first variation of the selfs namely 1.

Okay that’s fair enough. Although, in one sense, we are never not seeing it (since it is THIS before thought says otherwise), there are many habits of mind which can obscure this.

And just to reiterate, regarding the first variation. This self (the specific body-mind-personality-matrix) is a verb, an activity. An expression of a ‘greater scheme’. It is the conceiving of it as separate and inherently existing that is a form of delusion.

[iamthat]

iamthat and janielee . . .

Please explain to the post / thread . . .

“consciousness rests in the formlessness”

I agree . . . so there is no contention here. But . . . to and for those that might not understand what this “formlessness” might be . . . please provide some degree of definition or guidelines. And yes . . . it *can* be so described . . . at least to the point where one can get a good yet vague realization of it.

So . . . what is . . . this formlessness . . . or . . . are you suggesting that it is a complete empty void in which there is nothing . . . form . . . formless . . . or any other recognizable feature or non-feature?

If we accept the idea of different planes of consciousness then the esoteric approach divides these into the planes of form (rupa) and formlessness (arupa).

The planes of form include the mental, emotional and etheric/physical levels. So thoughts are considered as forms but on a much more subtle level than e.g. a table. In terms of human experience, the personality is based on form.

The nature of form is limitation, movement and change. Thus form is considered to be an illusion, because it has no lasting reality.

The planes of formlessness are the planes of consciousness beyond the mental. In Theosophical terms these are the Buddhic, the Atmic, the Monadic and the Divine. In terms of human experience, these are the planes of Being as experienced by consciousness.

The nature of formlessness is unity, stillness and changelessness. So formlessness is considered as the reality behind the illusion. In meditation this is "experienced" as a Void. The realisation of formlessness is the realisation of an emptiness without limits which is also a fullness because it is complete.

Which raises the question, how can states of formlessness be divided into separate planes?

A possible answer is that the planes of formlessness experienced by human consciousness are in fact still contained within greater states of form (Cosmic Form for want of a better term). What a human might consider as a very high state of consciousness could be considered as a very low state from the perspective of a greater Being.

Everything is relative.

Peace.

[ImthatIm]

And how can I tell the difference between real and illusion?

In my present self, I have it narrowed down to Divine Love.
This is that which I found deep within.
But peeping through this center, it opens up to all that is.

[janielee]

Unseeking Seeker - nice

[janielee]

Actually it isn't a 'pity', my friend...it's all part of the Cosmic Dance. It just is.
:hug3:

Remembering the 'non-duality' of reality is imp on our Path...these
little slips in our words shows the lack of this very necessary understanding.
Saying it is good, bad, a pity...keeps our subconscious mind locked into this false concept.
Just giving some unsolicited advice to a brother on the same Path, as usual !!
LOL :wink:

Without concepts, the suffering, sadness and nature of this human form still leaves a lot to be desired, Miss Hepburn.

Namaste.

[Rabanne]

***

First of all, we do not struggle ... any doing as a doer is counterproductive!

Initially, as a visualisation (later it becomes natural), imagine ourself as formless awareness as our default constitution who has for the moment chosen to ensoul this bodily form.

The body includes senses and the thinking process. Thinking is bifurcated into analytical and intuitive aspects. The analytical is the ego based doer mode ... a thinker thinking thoughts limited by experience of the limited known, that too coloured by perception and contoured by conditioning. The intuitive aspect is discouraged because it is ‘illogical’ and the doer disappears in it, which our limited self or ego does not like! The intuitive aspect allows us to connect and tap into Universal consciousness.

So, we as formless awareness looking at form. Looking without associating. Nonchalant observation. We are not but what is then that which is? Presence. Non-ego self presence.

Viewing some Eckhart Tolle videos might offer clarity on this.

This is also the essence of meditation. What happens during meditation? We are aware but without identity. We empty ourselves, so to speak and in stillness, just be. This allows the Divine energy to pour Itself into the void we have created within. Doing nothing, we simply cognise, imbibe and assimilate the flow.

Hope this explanation helps.

***
who is doing anything or thinking thoughts?

[Rabanne]

Okay that’s fair enough. Although, in one sense, we are never not seeing it (since it is THIS before thought says otherwise), there are many habits of mind which can obscure this.

And just to reiterate, regarding the first variation. This self (the specific body-mind-personality-matrix) is a verb, an activity. An expression of a ‘greater scheme’. It is the conceiving of it as separate and inherently existing that is a form of delusion.
How is it that the self is a verb?
And how to see through that form of delusion?

[Moondance]

How is it that the self is a verb?
And how to see through that form of delusion?

It is habits of mind that condition us and lock us in to the delusion of separation, inherency and permanence. So the question is, how to break or undermine habits of mind?

Have you tried meditation? How long have you been seeking?

Can you discern a clear difference between the narrative mode of mind (daydreaming, ruminating, thinking of the past and future) and direct perception (where you are present with life happening as it happens.) If not, I would suggest meditation until these two modes of mind become easy to discern.

[Jaraja]

Hi this is my understanding, the self exists in our day to day existence which is why we look before we cross the road, the othe side of the coin is that we have another dimension to this which exists without limits, is unchanging and beyond comprehension. This gives true perspective as we exist in both states simultaneously once this is realised. The journey is the spiritual path and has been undertaken by mystics for centuries

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi this is my understanding, the self exists in our day to day existence which is why we look before we cross the road, the other side of the coin is that we have another dimension to this which exists without limits, is unchanging and beyond comprehension.
This gives true perspective as we exist in both states simultaneously once this is realised.
The journey is the spiritual path and has been undertaken by mystics for centuriesVery good!!!!!!!! Love it.

[sentient]

Hi this is my understanding, the self exists in our day to day existence which is why we look before we cross the road, the othe side of the coin is that we have another dimension to this which exists without limits, is unchanging and beyond comprehension. This gives true perspective as we exist in both states simultaneously once this is realised. The journey is the spiritual path and has been undertaken by mystics for centuries

So far (until they don't) - your posts resonate with my understanding as well.
Thanks!

*

[ocean breeze]

The OP appears to be very sharp.

If you are serious about finding such answers you will not find it here. Though i think you figured that out.