Suicide

[pitchfork]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?

[daisy]

to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards

and once you did know what then?
Isn't life short enough?

[tragblack]

Everyone is going to die. Why are you worried you won't find out unless you do it now?

[livluv]

what's wrong with suicide?

Why do you ask? What inside urges the question?

I hope I don't sound judgemental for asking, but do you ask it from a "self"ish place? The act itself will have a ripple effect on everyone/thing.

If you want proof for consciousness, you can find it in life. It's everywhere/thing.

[livluv]

and once you did know what then?
Isn't life short enough?
kudos! short & sweet

[Mind's Eye]

I don't believe in hell but I think if someone were to commit suicide just for the sake of doing it, there may be some backlash or karmic penalty for it in the next dimension of life. I surely wouldn't chance such a thing.

Although I do believe that those who are in serious mental distress or are mentally ill and commit suicide have no backlash or karma... I feel they are comforted and helped once they enter into the light.

[Murciélago]

I don't beliive in the christian concept of hell or really karmic backlash for that matter but I do know that a person who commits suicide 8 outa 10 times dosent go on(to wherever that may that be reincarnation or what) immediately they stay for a long time.

[Rah nam]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?

The question makes little sense to me, if you cross over you will know, no matter how you cross over. I have to make a correction on this statement.
Your awareness on the initial crossing over, (from the physical to the non physical earth realm) depends almost entirely on your state of mind at the point of crossing over.
Once you come back, you will have the same veil as you have now.
So, what would be the point.

[Silver]

I don't beliive in the christian concept of hell or really karmic backlash for that matter but I do know that a person who commits suicide 8 outa 10 times dosent go on(to wherever that may that be reincarnation or what) immediately they stay for a long time.

Christian belief or not, there does seem to be the existence of our own mind and its psychology and the psyche very well may be such that if a person chooses to commit suicide, while they go through it, they may experience even more anxiety, despair and confusion for having done so, and that may in itself be "hell". Wherever it is they go, they aren't coming back to this particular 'life', or so it appears. Burning bridges is rarely the smartest course of action, but it's not something that brings on some sort of karmic whiplash or some sort of punishment by a god.

[Spiritlite]

Why rush? Why not live life until you die when you are meant to die? You have forever after you die, you only have a certain amount of time while you're alive. I'm not trying to put my belief system on you. I feel suicide is something that will put you back on this earth because of Karma of taking your life, it's not a religious belief, but my personal belief, in my opinion it's going to bring you back to earth and you'll have to start over all over again, you really want to do that?
Spiritlite.

[Leonine]

Personally, I believe suicide is only a matter of personal choice. I don't believe there is any kind of "backlash" from it at all.

BUT, it is a very selfish act that impacts very badly into those left behind and can often decimate their lives and spiritual progress. They, not the suicide, are the ones who have to live with the pain and in the aftermath.

:icon_frown:

[tmf]

Personally, I believe suicide is only a matter of personal choice. I don't believe there is any kind of "backlash" from it at all.

BUT, it is a very selfish act that impacts very badly into those left behind and can often decimate their lives and spiritual progress. They, not the suicide, are the ones who have to live with the pain and in the aftermath.

:icon_frown:
You are so right! My first boy friend committed suicide I was 16 at the time. Do I even need to tell you the horror of my lifes recovery from that event?

[Leonine]

No, tmf Sweetheart. You were probably plunged into the "Would'a'Should'a'Could'a" syndrome, in which you could have (later) seen all the ways you could have, should have and would have "saved" him. Or the dread "If only" cycle, in which If only you had said/done/known/fetched said item that person would still be here.

Not so, tmf. Let yourself off the hook. A suicide who carries it through means to do it. Wish them well and hope they have found what they want, at last. There is nothing else you can do.

[tmf]

No, tmf Sweetheart. You were probably plunged into the "Would'a'Should'a'Could'a" syndrome, in which you could have (later) seen all the ways you could have, should have and would have "saved" him. Or the dread "If only" cycle, in which If only you had said/done/known/fetched said item that person would still be here.

Not so, tmf. Let yourself off the hook. A suicide who carries it through means to do it. Wish them well and hope they have found what they want, at last. There is nothing else you can do.
Yes you are right in a way. I knew he was going to kill himself I told everyone I mean everyone! I kept asking friends and family to help they kept telling me no he won't he justs want attention. No matter you I told they would not believe me. So I broke up with him I could'nt take he tryed several times in front of me and I'd beg and scream at him to stop and he would stop. The last time after I broke up with him I did not run after him like I normally did when he came to me and said I'm going to kill myself I left him go. I told his nephew and about four other friend that were hanimg out on my front porch with my brother That he was going to do it and got the same response I always got even my Dad would'nt believe me! About 1/2 hr later a car pulled up to tell me and everyone ther that he just blew his head off. And more tha n one person still blame me for the deed.

[tmf]

He was asking me for help and I failed him. He came back and showed himself to 2 of my children through out the years trying to give me a message. The first time it scared me and my son who saw him he appears with no face. And than again to my daughter trying to reach me to tell me it is not my fault. Two of my children are mediums Three are empaths like me. Also my first grandchild is a medium cool right?

[Merlin6]

Just about all of the entities who have suicided, and been contacted via mediums later, have expressed profound regret at having done so.
On the other side they can see the anguish and pain they have caused loved ones, and can see the selfishness of their act.
They also find they must return in similar circumstances to atone for cutting short the life they were given, and to work through the problems they chose to incarnate with in the first place.
Suicide is a delay, like skipping classes at school. The only loser is themselves, but with the help of their guides and perhaps a long period of recuperation, they are given another chance to overcome their difficulties in the physical.

Merlin6

[BlueSky]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?

Hi PF,
Your question suggests to me that you are not really living your life. It's a good place to be when the concern for what or if anything happens afterwards is replaced by the simple joy of living.
Blessings, James

[pitchfork]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I'll answer the question as to why I ask this.

Basically I find this planet, this life, quite a sad thing. And amidst all that I naturally try to figure out why go on. And one thing I can't mentally cope with is the possibility that physical death might any second end everyting forever. The pointlessness scares me, and it seems I could never live with such a view on life.

However, having no evidence of the contrary (eternal life), and not even being able to argue for it, these spiritual ideas do seem like wishful thinking in face of the harsh reality. And even though I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, deep inside I reason like this - if life ends with death, I'd rather go now and not prolong the suffering (selfish? maybe), but if it does not, I at all costs want to know it, but don't know how to find such knowledge.

But to tell you the truth, the pain I would cause my mom and my friends probably would hold me back from pulling the trigger. I still want to love and care for them, even though I'm not doing a very good job at it lately.

[pitchfork]

It's a good place to be when the concern for what or if anything happens afterwards is replaced by the simple joy of living.


James, yes, that feels like a good place, but happens only ever so often. A few days might pass in such an elevated state, but it only does when ignoring the dark side of existence, shutting the bad stuff out somehow, but it eventually resurfaces.

[BlueSky]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I'll answer the question as to why I ask this.

Basically I find this planet, this life, quite a sad thing. And amidst all that I naturally try to figure out why go on. And one thing I can't mentally cope with is the possibility that physical death might any second end everyting forever. The pointlessness scares me, and it seems I could never live with such a view on life.

However, having no evidence of the contrary (eternal life), and not even being able to argue for it, these spiritual ideas do seem like wishful thinking in face of the harsh reality. And even though I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, deep inside I reason like this - if life ends with death, I'd rather go now and not prolong the suffering (selfish? maybe), but if it does not, I at all costs want to know it, but don't know how to find such knowledge.

But to tell you the truth, the pain I would cause my mom and my friends probably would hold me back from pulling the trigger. I still want to love and care for them, even though I'm not doing a very good job at it lately.

Did you ever hear the expression...........die before you die?
That which fears death and clings to life can die before we die and leave us with that which no longer fears death and embraces life.
You'll be alright......................find your peace here and now...follow you instincts...you are not alone and you will be guided to find joy in this life.
This I promise!
James

[BlueSky]

James, yes, that feels like a good place, but happens only ever so often. A few days might pass in such an elevated state, but it only does when ignoring the dark side of existence, shutting the bad stuff out somehow, but it eventually resurfaces.

Yes but this joy I speak of is not elevated in the way you are talking about.
It is the middle. It is peace. It is contentment.
Find the middle my friend.....:smile:

[John32241]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?

In my view, its not wrong but it is stupid.

You created your physical life for a reason. It is not designed to remember all that you are. It is designed to accomplish something.

What you learn after you pass over is how well you lived you life.

John

[numerouno]

I was once an atheist, I would only believe in god if he appeared before me. Then I learnt the correct reasoning or reasoning better than before.

Science doesn't believe in coincidence yet it says that after the big bang all matter fell into the right place to create life. Then they say no it didn't happen immediately it took millions of years. Was it millions of years of stuff just floating around then all of sudden matter by a fluke without any guidance to take correct formation initiating life.

This reasoning led to me see that god is there. Secondly using my knowledge of reasoning from studying lord Buddha, I asked myself how can i reason for sure that I've had past lives.

Reason dictated that first keep in mind that now you there is a god who knws more than you and he is kind. Reason dictated lets ask why does this kind person allow a child to be abandoned for example, this is not kind.

Contemplating I applied the the knwledge of how karma works to this process. In this way I if karma is true. Even though a baby this soul was abandoned because like its mother it abandoned its own child in its past life. As a result two things came of this meditative process that we are not body but soul. Yes we heard this before but being told one thing and when one's comes to this conclusion by itself liberation takes over. secondly karma itself is a spiritual law operating in this material realm and already knws the good we will do and the bad also.

Simply put to know what you did in your past ascess the good and bad in your life. Accepting both brings peace.
Think about what you are thinking about.

[Emmalevine]

Science doesn't believe in coincidence yet it says that after the big bang all matter fell into the right place to create life. Then they say no it didn't happen immediately it took millions of years. Was it millions of years of stuff just floating around then all of sudden matter by a fluke without any guidance to take correct formation initiating life.



yep, that's where my reasoning always stemmed from. It amazes me that most scientists are so adverse to anything remotely religious yet they produce theories based on nothing short of miraculous evidence :rolleyes:

To the original poster - What's the honest point of killing yourself just to find out what lies beyond? We're all going to die anyway and sadly that time can be sooner than expected. To be blunt about it, either there's an afterlife or there isn't. If its the latter, you won't know about it because you'll be dead. Based on what I've experienced, the chances of that being the case are next to nil. If its the former, you well be told you're going to live another Earthly life where you won't be aware of your spiritual self either, so you won't have achieved anything other than wasted a potentially beautiful life.

How about living life to the full, creating meaning for yourself and helping others, knowing the best is yet to come, AFTER you have fulfilled all you are meant to here? :hug3:

[Internal Queries]

i, personally, reserve the right to deliberately exit my spacesuit permanently should the it become too painful or enfeebled to live in.

[theophilus]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?The primary reason is that we were created by God and belong to him. Anyone who kills himself is destroying God's property.

Ifyou kill yourself you will find out what happens after death but it will be too late for you to use that knowledge. A better way to find out would be to study the Bible and see what God has revealed to us about the afterlife.

[Chrysaetos]

Hi there.
I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D
All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?The only thing that's ''wrong'' with it is that other people suffer because of it. I think it's a mistake to long for death. We don't know what will happen so it's probably a safe game to stay here. If you think you will go to a very nice place (whatever that may be) ask yourself why you are not there now?? If you don't deserve or live in that place now, what makes you think it's gonna be any better after death?

[Internal Queries]

The primary reason is that we were created by God and belong to him. Anyone who kills himself is destroying God's property.

Ifyou kill yourself you will find out what happens after death but it will be too late for you to use that knowledge. A better way to find out would be to study the Bible and see what God has revealed to us about the afterlife.


that's right. the Bible god will punish you severely for employing your free will. even if your body is rotting with incurable cancer you better stay in it and feel every agonizing moment of it's slow demise because you're the Bible god's property. he loves you so much that if you destroy his property to escape it's torments he'll toss your soul into his eternal torture chamber. and he (being all knowing) will have known in advance of creating you that you were destined for this horrible fate. study the Bible and see what the Bible god reveals about Himself.

[pitchfork]

Thanks again, especially Starbuck and Chrysaetos.

If you think you will go to a very nice place (whatever that may be) ask yourself why you are not there now?
That's a good point.

As for the Bible God, been there, done that, got a T-shirt. The traditional explanations of Bible and God are just wrong in so many ways.

To be blunt about it, either there's an afterlife or there isn't. If its the latter, you won't know about it because you'll be dead. Based on what I've experienced, the chances of that being the case are next to nil.
Can you elaborate on that which you have experienced? In a private message, if need be.

Thank you.

[daisy]

i, personally, reserve the right to deliberately exit my spacesuit permanently should the it become too painful or enfeebled to live in.
That's a completely seperate issue.

[Internal Queries]

That's a completely seperate issue.


.... how so?

[Emmalevine]

Thanks again, especially Starbuck and Chrysaetos.


That's a good point.

As for the Bible God, been there, done that, got a T-shirt. The traditional explanations of Bible and God are just wrong in so many ways.


Can you elaborate on that which you have experienced? In a private message, if need be.

Thank you.

Have pmed you.

[Ciqala]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?

It is not a gruesome thing when my awareness is very based on oneness and i see the whole picture of life and all the forces entwined, i often desire to "go home" and the idea of sudden natural death, or suicide does not seem horrible at all, i often even become puzzled why people are so afraid to die, yet along with this oneness and wide outlook i have this knowing that i am here to live for specific reasons to be of service and life is beautiful, so beautiful, here on this realm, that i am blessed to be here living in this body.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with suicide, the same as i do not believe there is anything wrong with children or babies who apparently to some, die before their time, i don't believe it's possible for anyone to make a mistake on when there time is, it is just fate, some people just want to return back home.
I believe that when one really tries to die, or are in an accident, they are brought back or saved if it is truly not their time.
I don't believe in the messed up theory that people who commit suicide are destined to suffer for the rest of their afterlife, i don't believe they make a mistake, except for the pain and selfishness caused here on this realm, how they hurt those left behind. People who commit suicide are welcomed by loving hands in the death realm, and they are comforted, and they are home.
Some people make the decision to return back, and their decisions are not judged. They would probably come back to live again, and resume their chapter. I think suicide victims have the fate to die that way.

But for those who just teeter on and off of it, what a waste it would be to throw away something so beautiful.

When it comes down to the weakness in people, their inability to adjust to obstacles, i do not have as much pity, as it is their own fault if their life is unbearable, if that's what it comes down to, i know there are many ways over that obstacle, and i don't pity those who suffer, because suffering is necessary and it makes one strong. A change in perspective is what these people need. For the percentage who use suicide as an excuse for dealing with hardships i would say life gets better, this too shall pass. I used to flirt with suicide in my past, and it was never my time to go, and all i was, was a selfish child who couldn't handle my woe is me dramas of life, and my attempts destructed my family for sure.

[pitchfork]

I don't believe there is anything wrong with suicide, the same as i do not believe there is anything wrong with children or babies who apparently to some, die before their time, i don't believe it's possible for anyone to make a mistake on when there time is, it is just fate, some people just want to return back home

I've always had a problem with this concept. It's obvious that people often die in accidents not desiring death at all. And sometimes they are killed my someone else, who excersized his or her free will, without asking whether their victims wanted to "return home".

But for those who just teeter on and off of it, what a waste it would be to throw away something so beautiful.

It can be beautiful and it can be ugly. In fact, it's both, depending on what we focus at a time. However, it will be "thrown away" eventually anyway. So why do you think it's bad to leave something beautiful earlier than later? Isn't the "home" beautiful too?

I used to flirt with suicide in my past, and it was never my time to go, and all i was, was a selfish child who couldn't handle my woe is me dramas of life, and my attempts destructed my family for sure.

No offence intended, but have you considered that you see other people's motives for suicide same as you own? Maybe you subconsciously see them all as selfish children (cause you were one), but maybe they reason and feel in a very different way.

[Felynx]

I've only read the first post, so aside from what anyone else has said, here goes:

I know so much about my life and what comes when I die that the line between being happy with a body and being happy without one has kind of blurred. Most value life because they dont believe there is an afterlife, or that this afterlife is so strange that it wont satisfy them as life did. Truth be told, death isnt as satisfying as life. There is no point in eating or sleeping, though me and my friends do it out of habit, and when we do it isnt satisfactory because we dont have a physical form.

Life is hard. You have to take care of your body and of those who are around you. When things get hard you cant just give up and walk away as if it isnt important. For a long time I thought life was overrated because no matter what Ill be with my family, but I now realize that there is many important things for me to do while Im here.

Though, having a purpose in life cant be said for everyone. I mean- sure everyone has some sort of purpose, but there are others who have especially important work to do while alive that doesnt just involve personal progress. I basically have a duty to remain alive and do my job, or so many things get ruined I cant even imagine the concequences.

Besides my duties, theres lot of complications with me being able to leave my body at this point in my life. Things got screwed up and I need to sort some things out before I can leave my body. Even the smartest, wisest one among my family dont know what will happen if my life ends before it gets fixed. BASICALLY, how this applies to you, who knows if you'll get sent to some sort of purgatory for giving up and killing yourself instead of doing your job. I know that people want to know what its like to die, but dont you have plenty of time for that at the end of your life?

[LadyVirgoxoxo]

Be patient OP. When your time comes to die you will find out what's on the other side. Suicide not only hurts you but a lot of other people. Suicide is just not the answer to anything.

[Ciqala]

I've always had a problem with this concept. It's obvious that people often die in accidents not desiring death at all. And sometimes they are killed my someone else, who excersized his or her free will, without asking whether their victims wanted to "return home".

You should know my views are quite paradoxical and i look at many sides. I guess to explain this view more, it is not about desiring death or making a decision of when to return home, those are human ideas from our outer shells, not our spirits, it is about the plans of destiny which have a play in the lives that are taken, we have free will and we create those plans of our destinies at points, and we have the free will to stray, and we all agree to what our life paths are and even help create the obstacles we endure for learning and growth, and part of the plan we first created may be to experience these "hardships" such as death, or on a wider view, perhaps our death is for a much wider plan to assist in others growth, well, as you may see, i have a much more widened view which is extremely contradicting and paradox of this in my last post, this was only a small piece of all the things i can see. Often when you communicate to these souls, they have realized it was part of the blueprint, and on the other side there is such a wider concept of love and knowing than what we can grasp here, and they do not have a problem with how things happened. There are though, traumatized souls, that are lost and trapped in the earth realm, and they need assistance to be brought to the light.



It can be beautiful and it can be ugly. In fact, it's both, depending on what we focus at a time. However, it will be "thrown away" eventually anyway. So why do you think it's bad to leave something beautiful earlier than later? Isn't the "home" beautiful too?

Exactly, it is both. As i stated before, i do not think there is anything wrong with those who decide to return home, i do not think there is anything wrong with death, suicide, or anything, or those who return earlier than later, i never implied such a thing. In this statement i am looking on another spectrum completely - the beauty of life. Anyone who can see the beauty of life, the beauty of being in service to source, can comprehend what a shame it would be to throw away, and possibly comprehend why it is, we always come back to living on this realm. I know i was not put here against my will, and i sure as hope no one was. My spirit does not see obstacles as punishment. My spirit sees it as an adventure to growing more, and i know i choose to come back to living, in all my past lives, it was my own choice, because despite how people view how horrible life is at times, my higher self does not see it that way.




No offence intended, but have you considered that you see other people's motives for suicide same as you own? Maybe you subconsciously see them all as selfish children (cause you were one), but maybe they reason and feel in a very different way.


Well I have already covered other ways and motives other than my own, and other reasonings for suicide as my view on this is much wider than just this... this is a psychological perspective, it may sound cruel to you, but if people could perceive their obstacles in a positive light and have help over their hurdles and their weaknesses, perhaps there would not be as many suicides due to emotional and psychological issues, and was just one other spectrum i decided to touch on, and it is a big one, which inflicts a lot of mental health patients, in which i have experience with, not just my own. You may not comprehend it, but many people suffering from suicidal tendencies use it as a way to escape because they feel their life is unbearable due to many emotional and psychological reasonings, trauma, upbringings, stress, inability to cope, low self esteem, and the suicide rates are higher as of now due to economy stress, and those who receive the support, stability and mental help are saved and live on to have wonderful lives. And on that subject, there are so many other reasons why suicidal tendencies occur, such as certain medications, toxins in the environment, there are a lot of things, but i touched on the mental side of it all, which can be cured.

[Boom]

I'm new to this forum, but I'm going to jump in here with my own thoughts.

The vast majority of people spend all their life on earth (The physical plane) with no knowledge or comprehension of other planes of existence.
We, and animals have a survival instinct, to stay on the physical plane for as long as we can. We are afraid of death, we are afraid of pain. We are held back.
Our physical bodies are equipped with the ability to self repair.

To me that is no accident. For some reason we are supposed to spend as much time as possible on Earth. Pain is an unpleasent sensation that we avoid at all costs. Perhaps thats the reason why we have no real knowledge of what life is like outside the physical plane. Perhaps if it was proven that its as wonderful as people make out it is, then there would be mass suicides.

Therefore, I get the feeling that any suicide would be deemed a bad thing by whatever is next.

From a personal perspective. I have not proven to myself about the existence of alternate planes and an afterlife as yet (that is why I am here). But if what I am reading is accurate, then I would still wish to leave a fulfilled life. It seems that there is plenty of time to be had in other planes and therefore we should embrace our life on earth.

[Internal Queries]

some people have a good time, for whatever reasons, manifesting as human on this material plane. other folks, for whatever reasons, are miserable. the world and human existance is not beautiful for them. though human society (based in species survival instinct) makes rules against self determined exit i don't find it wrong, selfish or insane to desire to escape misery.

if someOne is so so unhappy, so in pain, that they're willing to jump off into the unknown in order to escape it's selfish to expect them to remain in misery on your behalf and coerce them with guilt and threats of hell or bad karma.

if suicide weren't so taboo troubled people might not be so secretive about their feelings and plans. if those in anguish felt they could approach the topic with their loved ones without being harrangued with guilt, judged insane and labeled "selfish spoiled children" there would be more space to try to offer alternatives. and even if the anguished one couldn't be healed and convinced to stay at least those being left wouldn't be suddenly and painfully shocked and feeling they "should've known. should've done something."

[7he4uthor]

Be patient OP. When your time comes to die you will find out what's on the other side. Suicide not only hurts you but a lot of other people. Suicide is just not the answer to anything.

i see this as a biased and conditioned statement
i am not qualified to advise anyone in their personal/private path
and hope for the same respect in return.

the coward?
the hero ?

no.

is it cowardly to face death?
is it courageous ?

none of the arguments work when examined free of bias

the samurai
the kamakasi
the lonely

instinct to survive
intelligence to override

some religions/cultures prohibit it
some [in some cases] encourage it

it can bring shame to those who raised [attached to] you
but mostly because of conditioning, not always the truth ...

usually the result of depression [in the west]
but can be a code of honor

theres tooooo much to examine on this
1ve spent enough time here ...

[Greenslade]

Someone who was very close to me committed suicide recently. She was like a grand-daughter to me in many ways I can't begin to tell you. She spent a lot of years in a lot of pain that she could do little about except grin and bear it as best she could. Just when she was starting to get her Life back together again after having it wrecked through no fault of her own - again - she was back at square one with little Hope of it ever being anything different. Some see suicide as cowardly and selfish, but I believe that when you get to that stage it can take a brave person to carry it through.

I understand and believe in reincarnation, we had unresolved issues in a Past Life that were resolved in this one. For me, what's left is the questions, the not understanding why she did it. Perhaps there is a part of her that, in taking the decision, knew that those she left behind would understand. I accepted her choice and Honoured her Path, wished her well on her Journey. But that, for now, is the Spiritual acceptance of her choices and not the understanding. If we indeed have Free Will and it's not a myth, shouldn't that Free Will include suicide? And perhaps suicide is something she needed to experience in this Life, so was it a part of her Karmic Obligations/Soul Contract of whatever term you use?

She's gone Home, and in a way I envy her. Like Cigala, it's somewhere that a part of me wants to be. While she made the choice to go I made the choice to stay, and it has been my choice. As I write this, I get the message that she's whole again after.... millennia. The emotion is still there and I'm glad because that keeps the connection alive, but the reasons for it being there are very different.

Sometimes, suicide isn't such a bad thing after all.

[BlueSky]

Someone who was very close to me committed suicide recently. She was like a grand-daughter to me in many ways I can't begin to tell you. She spent a lot of years in a lot of pain that she could do little about except grin and bear it as best she could. Just when she was starting to get her Life back together again after having it wrecked through no fault of her own - again - she was back at square one with little Hope of it ever being anything different. Some see suicide as cowardly and selfish, but I believe that when you get to that stage it can take a brave person to carry it through.

I understand and believe in reincarnation, we had unresolved issues in a Past Life that were resolved in this one. For me, what's left is the questions, the not understanding why she did it. Perhaps there is a part of her that, in taking the decision, knew that those she left behind would understand. I accepted her choice and Honoured her Path, wished her well on her Journey. But that, for now, is the Spiritual acceptance of her choices and not the understanding. If we indeed have Free Will and it's not a myth, shouldn't that Free Will include suicide? And perhaps suicide is something she needed to experience in this Life, so was it a part of her Karmic Obligations/Soul Contract of whatever term you use?

She's gone Home, and in a way I envy her. Like Cigala, it's somewhere that a part of me wants to be. While she made the choice to go I made the choice to stay, and it has been my choice. As I write this, I get the message that she's whole again after.... millennia. The emotion is still there and I'm glad because that keeps the connection alive, but the reasons for it being there are very different.

Sometimes, suicide isn't such a bad thing after all.

Hi Greenslade,
I found your post to be moving and very much from the heart. I just wanted to thank you for it and say that it was nice to hear such a perspective form someone who has experienced what you have with your friend.
My brother took his life some 30 years ago. I don't what to make of it and still don't, maybe that is why your post touched me like it did.
Thanks for sharing..............Blessings, James

[Boom]

Hi Greenslide,
Having not been with someone close to death, I cannot begin to understand what you and the girl were going through during the troubled time.

I can understand the comfort it will bring, believing that when we die we just move on away from our bodies which were causing all the pain, onto something better and being free of the hardships that life on Earth brought us. But as a whole, society does not accept this would definately happen as it has not been scientifically proven.

If it was fullly proven, that at free will we could just suicide and then start a new life. It would create anarchy and suicide rates would be through the roof. It would heavilly devalue what it means to have a human life in the physical plane.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there seems to be a lot of inbuilt controls into us which stop us from taking our own life. It takes some real desperation to gain the courage to override those controls. Therefore I believe there must be a reason as to why we should be alive in the physical world for as long as we possibly can.

[Internal Queries]

Hi Greenslide,
Having not been with someone close to death, I cannot begin to understand what you and the girl were going through during the troubled time.

I can understand the comfort it will bring, believing that when we die we just move on away from our bodies which were causing all the pain, onto something better and being free of the hardships that life on Earth brought us. But as a whole, society does not accept this would definately happen as it has not been scientifically proven.

If it was fullly proven, that at free will we could just suicide and then start a new life. It would create anarchy and suicide rates would be through the roof. It would heavilly devalue what it means to have a human life in the physical plane.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there seems to be a lot of inbuilt controls into us which stop us from taking our own life. It takes some real desperation to gain the courage to override those controls. Therefore I believe there must be a reason as to why we should be alive in the physical world for as long as we possibly can.


exactly so. if slaves felt they could leave their misery behind with their bodies there would be no slaves left and then who would the elite exploit for labor and gratification? human life is valuable, especially when some odious work needs to be done or desire that those with power want fulfilled. the lower classes must be kept too terrified of afterlife consequences to employ their free will.

the basic individual and species (social) controls against self determined exit are called "survival instincts" but even some animals will kill themselves if their life becomes so unnatural as to be meaningless to them. some beings die in captivity.

[pitchfork]

if someone is so so unhappy, so in pain, that they're willing to jump off into the unknown in order to escape it's selfish to expect them to remain in misery on your behalf and coerce them with guilt and threats of hell or bad karma.

if suicide weren't so taboo troubled people might not be so secretive about their feelings and plans. if those in anguish felt they could approach the topic with their loved ones without being harrangued with guilt, judged insane and labeled "selfish spoiled children" there would be more space to try to offer alternatives. and even if the anguished one couldn't be healed and convinced to stay at least those being left wouldn't be suddenly and painfully shocked and feeling they "should've known. should've done something."

You nailed it, very true.

[Boom]

exactly so. if slaves felt they could leave their misery behind with their bodies there would be no slaves left and then who would the elite exploit for labor and gratification? human life is valuable, especially when some odious work needs to be done or desire that those with power want fulfilled. the lower classes must be kept too terrified of afterlife consequences to employ their free will.

the basic individual and species (social) controls against self determined exit are called "survival instincts" but even some animals will kill themselves if their life becomes so unnatural as to be meaningless to them. some beings die in captivity.

But youre saying that it is other humans that are bestowing this fear of dieing to each other. A very good example you put. I totally agree with you. This happens. The threats of going to hell for example.

But the restraints I'm talking about in order to preserve human life are the natural ones. Yes the survival instinct, and the fact that we don't have knowledge of what is in the afterlife, if it exists. We have a natural fear of the unknown. If we knew for 100% sure that our souls lived on and we could re-incarnate to another life then we'd feel a lot easier about taking our own life.

The other factor is how the body is very good at repairing itself. Fighting off germs and healing wounds. This gives us more chances to keep alive if we damage ourselves. That tells me that if there was a greater intention, then that intention was for us to stay alive for as long as we can.

[BlueSky]

But youre saying that it is other humans that are bestowing this fear of dieing to each other. A very good example you put. I totally agree with you. This happens. The threats of going to hell for example.

But the restraints I'm talking about in order to preserve human life are the natural ones. Yes the survival instinct, and the fact that we don't have knowledge of what is in the afterlife, if it exists. We have a natural fear of the unknown. If we knew for 100% sure that our souls lived on and we could re-incarnate to another life then we'd feel a lot easier about taking our own life.

The other factor is how the body is very good at repairing itself. Fighting off germs and healing wounds. This gives us more chances to keep alive if we damage ourselves. That tells me that if there was a greater intention, then that intention was for us to stay alive for as long as we can.

If I may join in...........
In regards to the highlited words:
I think only if we make it personal this is so. I respect and embrace my individuality and also my sense of oneness but life doesn't seem all that personal to me.
Life's way is to live eternally..........not so much for 'me' to live for a long time. It might be better for the whole that I don't. The more i am in balance with life, the more chance that I may live a long time.......or not........its all good.
Blessings, James

[Internal Queries]

But youre saying that it is other humans that are bestowing this fear of dieing to each other. A very good example you put. I totally agree with you. This happens. The threats of going to hell for example.

But the restraints I'm talking about in order to preserve human life are the natural ones. Yes the survival instinct, and the fact that we don't have knowledge of what is in the afterlife, if it exists. We have a natural fear of the unknown. If we knew for 100% sure that our souls lived on and we could re-incarnate to another life then we'd feel a lot easier about taking our own life.

The other factor is how the body is very good at repairing itself. Fighting off germs and healing wounds. This gives us more chances to keep alive if we damage ourselves. That tells me that if there was a greater intention, then that intention was for us to stay alive for as long as we can.


unless some unforeseen occurrance kills my body before i do i'll feel pretty easy about my self determined exit. i'll hang out as long as my body isn't too painful and/or enfeebled. i sure won't hang onto a miserable life just because generally oblivious society wants to tell me how to live and how to die.

some wounds and diseases can not be healed so waiting for death to slowly ebb ones life away by degrees while one is suffering excruciating pain and/or turning into a helpless vegetable is pointless, IMO.

[BlueSky]

unless some unforeseen occurrance kills my body before i do i'll feel pretty easy about my self determined exit. i'll hang out as long as my body isn't too painful and/or enfeebled. i sure won't hang onto a miserable life just because generally oblivious society wants to tell me how to live and how to die.

some wounds and diseases can not be healed so waiting for death to slowly ebb ones life away by degrees while one is suffering excruciating pain and/or turning into a helpless vegetable is pointless, IMO.

If I may............I don't think one can really know this unless one is actually going through it.
I worked as a hospice volunteer and I have had wonderful pets that had to be put to sleep and never have I seen anyone want out. In fact in all this suffering, I seen great changes.

[LadyVirgoxoxo]

People change for the better through suffering.

[Mabuz Luciferi]

Firstly, everyone has the right to kill themselves, being their own body, life and mind, and it is not for others to interfere with that decision.

Secondly, there is no god or higher entity that will torture or punish the individual for suicide, these are fears created by organised religions who feel they own the individual body and soul.

When you die, you still exist. There are many situations where suicide is desirable, the world is unjust and it can screw you up. The option is there to kill yourself and then be reborn hopefully with a better set of cards than in your previous life.

Note that each life time (I support the idea of reincarnation) is an opportunity for growth in the evoluton of the soul and killing yourself also kills the chance for making progress in a particular lifetime for your soul.

[Internal Queries]

People change for the better through suffering.

right right. "suffering is good for the soul". i'm not Catholic anymore so i no longer find martyrdom appealing.

[Felynx]

"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved."

But seriously, whats with the debate, guys? Whos to say that a person should or shouldnt kill themselves? You have no right to try to impose your righteousness on people who will do what they want anyways. Its like saying "I love God" and another person saying "Blahblahblah God doesnt exist who cares". Its a personal matter, something that you cant prove regardless of your arguement because its an idea and not some scientific fact. *Sigh*

[Sarian]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?
I've not read many replies on this thread. I think we would regret if we dropped out of class so to speak. We are here for a reason. It's a touchy subject for me because I have had the desires to end it all too many times, since I was 3 or 4 years old.

Maybe off topic, but while I toyed with the idea more than I care to admit because I felt so weighted, so heavy and when joy and beauty is stolen from my soul it seems and I can no longer even see beauty, life has felt more than excruciating to say the least and that would not be an exaggeration at all. One day I took a whole bottle of pills and laid down. I will say that I was a little more than scared after I ingested them...I thought why did I do this? I have three totally amazing and beautiful kids whom I love more than life, and here I am doing this and it will grieve them so...but my pain, too was that great that I did it. Peace came over me and I drifted to sleep. Now maybe it was the ingested pills? I don't know, but what I do know is what I saw was something familiar to me. Three orbs, I saw black for the eyes, no nose, but beautiful smiles, and I heard the sweetest sounds as well, like music, but who knows if it was music, the kept looking at me and I was awoken to hearing my name called over and over and over and telling me to wake up, wake up and go back. I then felt myself 'go back' and it was with a jolt and it wasn't pleasant after that. I jolted upright so fast, I thought my head split in two and vomited profusely. I looked at the clock and it was 3 hours after I had laid down. Again, maybe it was the pills, it seems the mostly likely reason for it all, but I know I took enough to kill a horse too.

2009 turned out to be a particularly horrible year for me...every damn day I was hurting. I cried so much and wondered where all the tears came from. My kids could see my suffering and I hated that...I wrote letters and went to my favorite place and decided that I was going to jump. I know it sounds so very selfish and it is, but you don't think so much of those things all the time...all you feel is consumed by fear, consumed by pain and the fear it will never end (mental and emotional pain)... I had a calmness come over me as I stood and looked over the cliff. Then I heard "RUN" Loudly. I have no idea where it came from, but the way it came, I knew it was for me and I did not think of questioning, I just ran. I jumped over the fence and I ran around the whole gorge. My adrenalin was pumping...I was crying, but I was living, I was breathing and I was fighting again.

The following week my daughter's boyfriend was killed in a car crash. I grieved for him and I grieved for my daughter's pain and also all I could think about was if I jumped that day, my daughter would be grieving for me and her boyfriend and she needed me. She is an amazing young woman....

I guess my point for this lenghthy reply is that we are here for a purpose. We can end our life if we so chose for whatever reason...but we are here for reasons, many reasons, even if just to be here for another, but to learn, I know we are here to learn...maybe it's to learn how to cope? To figure out the wrong things and make them right?

I made up my mind to stop what ever is going on and fight for myself, for my life, for my kids and be the person I was intended to be and I took up hiking again, jogging, I have returned back to school, I am divorcing my husband who is a great source of pain for me.

And you know, I have been with people who were dying and I have sat with a 17 year old who shot himself in the chest and it's so hard, but yet, oddly enough, I feel sure that one of the things I am here for is to comfort and help bring peace and take away their fears as they transition to another journey.

sorry so long.

[Dean1973]

That's a peaceful way of answering the question of 'what happens afterwards' : )

I personally don't care for knowing, I only care about here and now. I think the only heaven or hell is what we create for ourselves 'down here', and I somehow feel that all that we'd find without our bodies is pure love and safety, but I do feel that we're here to learn our lessons, and I think leaving our bodies, we'd possibly just look 'down' and laugh at how seriously we take our fears, and want to jump right back in and keep playing the game ..

[BlueSky]

I've not read many replies on this thread. I think we would regret if we dropped out of class so to speak. We are here for a reason. It's a touchy subject for me because I have had the desires to end it all too many times, since I was 3 or 4 years old.

Maybe off topic, but while I toyed with the idea more than I care to admit because I felt so weighted, so heavy and when joy and beauty is stolen from my soul it seems and I can no longer even see beauty, life has felt more than excruciating to say the least and that would not be an exaggeration at all. One day I took a whole bottle of pills and laid down. I will say that I was a little more than scared after I ingested them...I thought why did I do this? I have three totally amazing and beautiful kids whom I love more than life, and here I am doing this and it will grieve them so...but my pain, too was that great that I did it. Peace came over me and I drifted to sleep. Now maybe it was the ingested pills? I don't know, but what I do know is what I saw was something familiar to me. Three orbs, I saw black for the eyes, no nose, but beautiful smiles, and I heard the sweetest sounds as well, like music, but who knows if it was music, the kept looking at me and I was awoken to hearing my name called over and over and over and telling me to wake up, wake up and go back. I then felt myself 'go back' and it was with a jolt and it wasn't pleasant after that. I jolted upright so fast, I thought my head split in two and vomited profusely. I looked at the clock and it was 3 hours after I had laid down. Again, maybe it was the pills, it seems the mostly likely reason for it all, but I know I took enough to kill a horse too.

2009 turned out to be a particularly horrible year for me...every damn day I was hurting. I cried so much and wondered where all the tears came from. My kids could see my suffering and I hated that...I wrote letters and went to my favorite place and decided that I was going to jump. I know it sounds so very selfish and it is, but you don't think so much of those things all the time...all you feel is consumed by fear, consumed by pain and the fear it will never end (mental and emotional pain)... I had a calmness come over me as I stood and looked over the cliff. Then I heard "RUN" Loudly. I have no idea where it came from, but the way it came, I knew it was for me and I did not think of questioning, I just ran. I jumped over the fence and I ran around the whole gorge. My adrenalin was pumping...I was crying, but I was living, I was breathing and I was fighting again.

The following week my daughter's boyfriend was killed in a car crash. I grieved for him and I grieved for my daughter's pain and also all I could think about was if I jumped that day, my daughter would be grieving for me and her boyfriend and she needed me. She is an amazing young woman....

I guess my point for this lenghthy reply is that we are here for a purpose. We can end our life if we so chose for whatever reason...but we are here for reasons, many reasons, even if just to be here for another, but to learn, I know we are here to learn...maybe it's to learn how to cope? To figure out the wrong things and make them right?

I made up my mind to stop what ever is going on and fight for myself, for my life, for my kids and be the person I was intended to be and I took up hiking again, jogging, I have returned back to school, I am divorcing my husband who is a great source of pain for me.

And you know, I have been with people who were dying and I have sat with a 17 year old who shot himself in the chest and it's so hard, but yet, oddly enough, I feel sure that one of the things I am here for is to comfort and help bring peace and take away their fears as they transition to another journey.

sorry so long.

I think you are a wonderful, compassionate human being Sarian.......
Thank you for sharing that........I felt its sincerity:hug3:

[Greenslade]

Hi Greenslade,
I found your post to be moving and very much from the heart. I just wanted to thank you for it and say that it was nice to hear such a perspective form someone who has experienced what you have with your friend.
My brother took his life some 30 years ago. I don't what to make of it and still don't, maybe that is why your post touched me like it did.
Thanks for sharing..............Blessings, James

Thank you, James.

When people die a death other than suicide, at least there's some kind of closure. If someone gets run over by a bus or dies of cancer it's easier to accept that these things happen. Not so with suicide though, because it leaves so many things unanswered. You ask yourself what brought them to that choice, was there something you did/didn't do, why didn't you see it coming? And on it goes. You never get to the bottom of it in this Life anyway.

Boom, I believe that there is something long after death. There has to be. I've spoken to people who have known each other through a few different Lives and by the way they talk, it can't just be coincidence. Science doesn't have all the answers - ask the microbes that live in the methane lake. But how many religions promise a better Afterlife of some description? While Christianity says it's a sin, it's also very easy to argue your way out of that. I also believe it takes courage to commit suicide, it's not a simple choice of leaving your woes behind for the belief of a better Life elsewhere. I wonder how many people on these boards, even with a consolidated belief in reincarnation etc., would consider committing suicide? Even if, given family/friends/peers with the same beliefs? One of those in-built controls could well be fear itself, because sometimes a even a strong belief in an Afterlife of some description isn't enough to give you the courage. It's probably one of the biggest leaps of Faith that anyone can take, if they believe in Life after death. Society also has in-built controls in the form of taboos and religious beliefs.

Perhaps there is a reason why we need to be in this Life as long as possible, but then sometimes those reasons can pale into insignificance. What about voluntary euthanasia? A few months back my friend's wife died of cancer. Near the end she was bed-ridden, in pain and losing her lucidity because of the high doses of morphine she was on. Her dignity had gone, there was no quality of Life whatsoever and her and her family were just hanging on for the inevitable end. My friend expressed a few times that he wished he could end it all for her because she was no longer the woman he knew. She was no longer the woman I remembered, and quite honestly I could come up with no Spiritual reason for her to suffer the way she did. As Internal said - "some animals will kill themselves if their life becomes so unnatural as to be meaningless to them". And yes, there are far too many artificial taboos that should be thrown out with the trash.

Perhaps people do change through suffering, LadyVirgo, but I have yet to see any kind of physical or Spiritual sense in a long, slow and painful death. And if all you have in front of you is more pain and suffering like you've already had, what then? What do you do when you feel as though your very Soul has been destroyed and all you see in front of you is more of the same?


I guess my point for this lenghthy reply is that we are here for a purpose. We can end our life if we so chose for whatever reason...but we are here for reasons, many reasons, even if just to be here for another, but to learn, I know we are here to learn...maybe it's to learn how to cope? To figure out the wrong things and make them right?

That's actually something that has gone through my mind a lot in this particular case. We both believe(d) in Past Lives and explored quite a number of issues that needed resolving. We had just turned a corner, and what gets to me most is the post potential. Could those issues have been resolved better or were they resolved enough? Was turning that corner enough or was there much more that could have gone on between us? Perhaps I'll never know for sure in this Life, but doesn't everything happen for a reason even if we don't know what those reasons are? Perhaps we had figured out the wrong things and made them right enough - for now at least.

[LadyVirgoxoxo]

I believe if there was no suffering in the world, there would be no compassion. And anyone can come here and tell me how wrong that statement is and how stupidly Christian it is but I don't care because I believe it. If our lives were perfect, what would be the point of living? Life is all up the ups and downs, and it sure isn't fun when it's all ups.

[Chrysaetos]

I believe if there was no suffering in the world, there would be no compassion. And anyone can come here and tell me how wrong that statement is and how stupidly Christian it is but I don't care because I believe it. If our lives were perfect, what would be the point of living? Life is all up the ups and downs, and it sure isn't fun when it's all ups.Yes I would agree with that.

'Perfection' as generally understood by people would mean no more process, evolution, inspirations, dreams, change, learning, adventure, engagement. Absolutely nothing.
Sounds exciting doesn't it?

Maybe change is part of 'perfection'. It still doesn't explain why some parts exist tho', but who knows..

[daisy]

The option is there to kill yourself and then be reborn hopefully with a better set of cards than in your previous life.

EHHHH??????

That's right let's top ourselves to see if we get a nicer, richer kind of life, with perhaps nicer parents or a sister who doesn't pinch your clothes and make up, perhaps this time we won't get bullied at school or whatever...!!!!

What an irresponsible statement, if reincarnation is true, what if you got a WORSE life, what then???

Obviously some people don't understand the impact suicide has and comments like this get me mad as not only are you trivialising suicide you're trivialising life itself.

Suicide is fine in some circumstances such as assited suicide, I also believe in euthanasia done for the right reasons.
I do not like people talking about suicide just because someone is unhappy with their 'lot' if you don't like your current cards, deal some more don't throw in the towel.

[daisy]

Just wanted to add that I do genuinely feel for anyone who feels suicidal, it's not a good place to be.

[pitchfork]

I believe if there was no suffering in the world, there would be no compassion. And anyone can come here and tell me how wrong that statement is and how stupidly Christian it is but I don't care because I believe it. If our lives were perfect, what would be the point of living? Life is all up the ups and downs, and it sure isn't fun when it's all ups.

Hmm. If there was no pain, there was no compassion, true. But I don't think compassion is in any way inherently necesseary for happiness. If someone is suffering, we need to have compassion, if not, we can just be happy together.

If our lives were void of suffering (perfect is too vague of a term for me), we would be incredibly happy, which in itself is reason for existence. When you've had a time like that in your life, did you feel like "oh well, this is too happy and boring, I think I'll go and hurt myself for the fun of it"? I didn't, I just sincerely wished it would never end. When we say peace and happiness, it doesn't mean boring dullness. It means the lack of the negative, with the positive and active still in place.

That's the way I look at it.

[Windchime159]

your higher self is what picked this place for your being, its like dharma

you have to live out your life so life can mold your soul in the way it needs to be, you choose this place for a reason and you need to live it out for whatever reason you have decided

if you dont your just gonna have to re-live it all anyway, so the only real bad thing about it is wasting your time...

[Roselove]

right right. "suffering is good for the soul". i'm not Catholic anymore so i no longer find martyrdom appealing.

lol



on the topic, i think suicide is a result of extreme hopelessness/suffering. Some people are saying the soul is forced to come back (this raises the question of free will) while others say that the soul can stay in the spiritworld. If it's all love and light up there, shouldn't they have the compassion to understand that it's too much for the soul to endure?

[7he4uthor]

Just wanted to add that I do genuinely feel for anyone who feels suicidal, it's not a good place to be.
it is hell ... and a hellish struggle to get out of, recomend realizing what got you there ... this is the key if there is an escape ... nobody gets to hell on their own ...
theres always external help, the subject is targeted.

often drugs
[not always] are involved, attack from within, study mkultra, you will find answers there, the various help groups are often affiliated with the source of the problem.


i lost my brother
watched my neighbors friend end his life after extreme psychological abuse from the neighbor.


nothing more to add.

[NightSpirit]

Hmm. If there was no pain, there was no compassion, true. But I don't think compassion is in any way inherently necesseary for happiness. If someone is suffering, we need to have compassion, if not, we can just be happy together.

If our lives were void of suffering (perfect is too vague of a term for me), we would be incredibly happy, which in itself is reason for existence. When you've had a time like that in your life, did you feel like "oh well, this is too happy and boring, I think I'll go and hurt myself for the fun of it"? I didn't, I just sincerely wished it would never end. When we say peace and happiness, it doesn't mean boring dullness. It means the lack of the negative, with the positive and active still in place.

That's the way I look at it.

The ups and downs is what makes life worth living. Without the challenges, we would be bored silly. Imagine sitting round all day like zombies...abundance of all things, no reason to lift a finger..talk about zoning out lol.

[pitchfork]

The ups and downs is what makes life worth living. Without the challenges, we would be bored silly. Imagine sitting round all day like zombies...abundance of all things, no reason to lift a finger..talk about zoning out lol.

Challenges are not the same as extreme pain, fear and suffering. I get up and meet my friends, play games, listen to or play music for no reason at all, apart from them being pleasurable. And my happy days are most active not the other way around.

When I was younger I tended to think that both extremes of good and bad are valuable and needed, but then I did not yet know how bad it could get. I take my words back now.

To tell you the truth I just don't know what to do with this confusion, fear and depression. I make it day by day but don't know why and how long.

[Roselove]

The ups and downs is what makes life worth living. Without the challenges, we would be bored silly. Imagine sitting round all day like zombies...abundance of all things, no reason to lift a finger..talk about zoning out lol.


i would take a boring life over a painful one anyday.. sorry welcoming/encouraging suffering to me is self abuse. And people do more with their lives then sit aroun in misery all day. We live in beautiful world, beaches, clubs etc. i can' speak for anyone else but the good things in life make life worth living.

[Smiler]

Deep Breath ...

Does a person know what its like to be raped if they haven't been raped ?
NO .. they can only form opinions from their mind or a group mentality or conditioning!
My life being' my own business' ...is mine ..and I am prepared to share a bit of my past on the topic of suicide .. since I have been there myself personally ..meaning ME.. twice in this life.

No if 's .. No but's .. No maybe's .. Factual. Its not funny .. nor an experiment ..nor a joke!

Is there a lot of pain in the person "yes"

Are they selfish "NO" And I don't think any person has the right to say that unless they have been through those levels of pain.

Don't judge what you don't understand!

Why am I still here .. because both times a miracle occurred.. not from earth .. will I ever do it again NO.

That's all I wish to share .

Try to send light to the people hurting ..not opinions.

[Roselove]

^ agreed you can't judge someone unless you've been in their position and that's a very difficult place to be in. The only thing that's selfish is expecting someone to live while they are clearly dealing with more then they can endure just so you don't have to deal with their loss. It's a personal choice.

that being said i am glad you are still here :)

[Smiler]

LOL Rosewater ..so am I .. life has just opened up for me :)

Hugs XX

[NightSpirit]

i would take a boring life over a painful one anyday.. sorry welcoming/encouraging suffering to me is self abuse. And people do more with their lives then sit aroun in misery all day. We live in beautiful world, beaches, clubs etc. i can' speak for anyone else but the good things in life make life worth living.


Rosewater and pitchfork


Sorry i think im being mis-quoted here. I never once said to choose pain and suffering over doing nothing....i said challenging! That's a little different to pain and suffering. I'm not insensitive to your depression pitchfork and i know it dulls the ability to see life as worthy of sticking around.

A life of beaches and clubs and gaming would be nice but sadly majority of us have to cut a living to survive. So really its irrelevant. Life itself is a challenge. We do the best we can.

I dont view suicide as a joke. I've lost relatives to suicide and its not funny at all for those left behind, so dont jump on my back for thinking i appear insensitive. Thanks

[Smiler]

Nightspirit

Quote : Life itself is a challenge. We do the best we can.

Yep Im still busting my butt ..chopping wood carrying water ..outta bed early ..the big W ...WORK !!!
Ahhh to have the life of a humble painter ! * sigh*

Hugs at You My friend...
:)
XX

[Roselove]

nightspirit -

i didn't accuse you of making suicide a joke so i'm assuming that's directed at pitchfork


you said ups and downs and challenges yes, most downs in my life usually involve pain thus the word choice and since this thread is on sucide, i would imagine the downs are more extreme. but using the word challenging ok - i still don't prefer having a challenging life, i would imagine i'm not alone in feeling this way. .

[Smiler]

More hugs in the house *** Rosewater*** hugs to u .

Oh I just read simons joke .. a laugh is good ..check it out lol

Maybe its the Aussie in me .
Some things are really funny ... or they arent.

XX.. .!!!

[Roselove]

oops i totally misread that, didn't know there was a memeber named pitchfork thought he/she was saying i had one lol had to edit how embarrsing for me lol

HUGS BACK TO YOU Smiler!

[The Feather]

I am a channel for healing energy and have my training from the “spirit world”, years ago while being trained I ended up in different afterlife worlds to heal within them.

At times in my life I have found this life too harsh for the sensitive me, and have wanted to go home – maybe for that reason I ended up working for the spirit world at a place in the afterlife for people who have committed suicide (to remind me how it was). What I found here was a place where, what ever state of mind you had when you crossed over, that state of mind was so more intense here. I can't describe the place in words, so all I can say to you is the emotions you have now will be so much stronger and intense – they are there for a reason, to help you on your path … sometimes pain is what makes us change direction.

I have met many lovely souls there – for some of the people stuck there it has been the right decision, the best way for them to deal with the suffering they felt on earth, maybe because they needed it so much more intense to forgive and change direction, so that next time they come down, they have dealt with those issues and do not have to relive them. I was there to heal those people, so that they did not need to stay in this place for as long as the place otherwise kept people. Just because it is a difficult place to get away from and to move on from …. because the main energy there is hopelessness.

I know this sounds a bit 'fantasy like' and for that I have kept this info to my self all those years – but since you ask I felt like I ought to tell you my perception. I never felt that the people there have done something wrong by committing suicide. I just felt like no way I could ever do that to myself again (have done it in a previous life), felt like the harsh life maybe was not so harsh after all, scared that if I ever got there, that there would be no one coming to heal me and I would be stuck there.

I can't say if all people committing suicide end up there, because I simply do not know.

[Roselove]

in a sense don't we all commit suicde sub cons when the soul choses to end it's exp?

[Internal Queries]

one can wait for accident, disease or old age to force a permanent exit from ones spacesuit or one can take control and make a choice to exit on ones own terms.

in any case ... "no One here gets out alive."

[nick61]

Life is an experience in whereby we learn, who are we to cut it short before it is due?

[Celeste]

I think if you killed yourself, you wouldn't get a true and clear picture of the afterlife. That would be a violent death, in my opinion. And I don't know if you would go straight to a peaceful and wonderful place.

[pitchfork]

Life is an experience in whereby we learn, who are we to cut it short before it is due?

Actually I felt this should be answered: to stop fear and/or pain. I think mostly people kill themselves because these or similar experiences are overwhelming, and they don't know how to stop them. When all known options seem to be exhausted, one goes for suicide, because what life has become is just too hard to bear. And one who hasn't experienced such depth of suffering would find it hard to understand and emphasize with ones who have.

[Novietta]

that's right. the Bible god will punish you severely for employing your free will. even if your body is rotting with incurable cancer you better stay in it and feel every agonizing moment of it's slow demise because you're the Bible god's property. he loves you so much that if you destroy his property to escape it's torments he'll toss your soul into his eternal torture chamber. and he (being all knowing) will have known in advance of creating you that you were destined for this horrible fate. study the Bible and see what the Bible god reveals about Himself.

Excellent point. I agree with this. The "hell, fire, and brimstone" mentality of christianity, the dictatorship, the hypocrisy, the judgemental attitudes are some of the reasons I left christianity over 10 years ago and began searching for a path that made more sense, gave me peace, and fit me. Now that I have lived, learned, studied, asked questions and LISTENED to the answers, Im no longer afraid of what comes next. Its all part of the cycle we're meant to experience. Death and life are part of each other, and while Im excited to see whats waiting for me on the other side, Im in no hurry to get there before my time. Im always afraid I'll miss something really good if I go to soon. lol

[Greenslade]

I think if you killed yourself, you wouldn't get a true and clear picture of the afterlife. That would be a violent death, in my opinion. And I don't know if you would go straight to a peaceful and wonderful place.
You might well get a clearer picture. I lost someone to suicide, she'd been struggling with health and Life problems for many of her young years until Life threw her yet another curved ball. My guides aren't saying much about her, other than she's fine. However, knowing who she's with I know she's better than fine. If she'd had a violent 'normal' death, who knows? Perhaps if she had suddenly been run over by a bus she might have carried that trauma with her as so many do. I know there's a 'grey area' between this Life and the Spirit world where we go to heal or finally rid ourselves of our human vestiges. It's not as though there's a switch thrown where one minute we're human and the next we're 100% Spirit with all that it entails.

As the man says, if you want to understand Spirit then you have to think like Spirit.

[Boldylocks]

Because killling yourself is an interruption of your destiny that not only affects your own life and spiritual destiny (which needs this Earthly life as a sort of Boot Camp to aid in further spiritual growth) but you taking your own life also affects the lives of others as everyone's life is intertwined with each other--like it or not-and the effect is always negative for others.

A person cannot escape any negativity - eventually you have to go through it- if you end your life, you will probably be reborn to re-experience it in a future life, so we may as well "suck it up" and go through it- not evade it.

If we don't get the luxury of being reincarnated, then we may very well end up in a grey void type of a dimension where we cannot move forward and are just plain miserable.

[Boldylocks]

You might well get a clearer picture. I lost someone to suicide, she'd been struggling with health and Life problems for many of her young years until Life threw her yet another curved ball. My guides aren't saying much about her, other than she's fine. However, knowing who she's with I know she's better than fine. If she'd had a violent 'normal' death, who knows? Perhaps if she had suddenly been run over by a bus she might have carried that trauma with her as so many do. I know there's a 'grey area' between this Life and the Spirit world where we go to heal or finally rid ourselves of our human vestiges. It's not as though there's a switch thrown where one minute we're human and the next we're 100% Spirit with all that it entails.

As the man says, if you want to understand Spirit then you have to think like Spirit.

My post doesnt apply to your friend because I think that in certain situations where the person is just beside themselves in turmoil- they do receive healing on the other side too- and I think your friend is receiving that.

[agiosotheos]

Hi there.

I was wondering today - presuming that our consciousness doesn't die with the physical body - what's wrong with suicide? Why shouldn't I kill myself to finally know for sure what if anything happens afterwards? ;D

All of world's religions have some sort of an opinion. What do you think (or know)?

Our physical body is a gift. Even if we do survive our physical death, the life we live in our physical bodies before that is still valuable and important, and therefore suicide is an improper action.

[Internal Queries]

Because killling yourself is an interruption of your destiny that not only affects your own life and spiritual destiny (which needs this Earthly life as a sort of Boot Camp to aid in further spiritual growth) but you taking your own life also affects the lives of others as everyone's life is intertwined with each other--like it or not-and the effect is always negative for others.

A person cannot escape any negativity - eventually you have to go through it- if you end your life, you will probably be reborn to re-experience it in a future life, so we may as well "suck it up" and go through it- not evade it.

If we don't get the luxury of being reincarnated, then we may very well end up in a grey void type of a dimension where we cannot move forward and are just plain miserable.


suck it up? my guess is you've never experienced pain so intense that there's no "sucking it up". it's just animal agony, pointless unremmitting pain. we put suffering animals to sleep out of sense of compassion. why in the hell would you think that we humans deserve less compassion when we're in agony?

lol we "may" end up in a "grey void of a dimension" whatever we do. i mean, if you wanna play "what if" ... the afterlife (presuming there is one) "may" be whatever we imagine or nothing like what we've imagined.

[pitchfork]

My post doesnt apply to your friend because I think that in certain situations where the person is just beside themselves in turmoil- they do receive healing on the other side too- and I think your friend is receiving that.

I think in 99% of cases people are besides themselves in turmoil. It is the ultimate, desperate attempt after all. I don't think anyone approaches it like: oh well, I'll try this suicide thing now. Every suicide victim desperately needs healing.

[Greenslade]

My post doesnt apply to your friend because I think that in certain situations where the person is just beside themselves in turmoil- they do receive healing on the other side too- and I think your friend is receiving that.
I hope she is, Boldy. If the 'other side' is as good as they say then her receiving that healing should be par for the course - although that's not to say we should take it for granted.

Because killling yourself is an interruption of your destiny that not only affects your own life and spiritual destiny (which needs this Earthly life as a sort of Boot Camp to aid in further spiritual growth) but you taking your own life also affects the lives of others as everyone's life is intertwined with each other--like it or not-and the effect is always negative for others.

But what if experiencing suicide is part of your destiny? What if the others around the person that commits suicide has already agreed to go through that experience? If we do indeed agree as a Soul Group or whatever term you use then why can't suicide be as much a part of what we experience as everything else?

[Scibat]

Challenges are not the same as extreme pain, fear and suffering. I get up and meet my friends, play games, listen to or play music for no reason at all, apart from them being pleasurable. And my happy days are most active not the other way around.

When I was younger I tended to think that both extremes of good and bad are valuable and needed, but then I did not yet know how bad it could get. I take my words back now.

To tell you the truth I just don't know what to do with this confusion, fear and depression. I make it day by day but don't know why and how long.

I've been and sometimes return to where you are. I have seriously contemplated suicide and have in fact tried to harm myself on several occasions. I do understand the pain and what you are going through, I wish I could offer something more, then saying I understand.

Sadly though I am still struggling as well. Day by day is all I manage too, for me the fear of non-existence is what keeps me around, I don't honestly know which way I would go if I was confronted with proof positive of an afterlife.

[agiosotheos]

If we do indeed agree as a Soul Group or whatever term you use then why can't suicide be as much a part of what we experience as everything else?

Suicide can hardly be qualified as that much of an experience. If anything, it is more like a termination of experience.

[Boldylocks]

suck it up? my guess is you've never experienced pain so intense that there's no "sucking it up". it's just animal agony, pointless unremmitting pain. we put suffering animals to sleep out of sense of compassion. why in the hell would you think that we humans deserve less compassion when we're in agony?

lol we "may" end up in a "grey void of a dimension" whatever we do. i mean, if you wanna play "what if" ... the afterlife (presuming there is one) "may" be whatever we imagine or nothing like what we've imagined.

Well, after reading my post, I do sound very cold and heartless- though that wasnt my intention-- just very poor terminology on my part. I do know how it feels to be depressed-- Depression is my emotion by default. Emotional pain is much worse than physical pain.

I'm sorry if I offended you - I can tell you've gone through your share of Hell on this planet .


boldy

[pitchfork]

I wanted to share this article for some reason: oshotimes.blog.osho.com/2010/11/osho-explains-psychological-physical-aspects-of-pain/
Seems relevant.

[Greenslade]

Suicide can hardly be qualified as that much of an experience. If anything, it is more like a termination of experience.

Sorry to disagree with you, but until you've been there..... And it doesn't necessarily stop with death.

It's one thing to talk about suicide from a completely objective perspective, it's another thing when you've been brought so close to the point that it's the only option you can see. And yes, there are always choices but sometimes you don't feel too Spiritual when everything you've believed in goes by the wayside, or you're sitting there with a gun in your hand. It's seldom just about the person committing suicide's experience neither, unless there is absolutely nobody there who will miss them.

[Internal Queries]

Well, after reading my post, I do sound very cold and heartless- though that wasnt my intention-- just very poor terminology on my part. I do know how it feels to be depressed-- Depression is my emotion by default. Emotional pain is much worse than physical pain.

I'm sorry if I offended you - I can tell you've gone through your share of Hell on this planet .


boldy


awww you didn't really "offend" me. i just got my knickers knotted up a little bit. Earth is not for sissies, that's fer sure. anyOne with any amount of real sensitivity is gonna get whammed and i simply can't hold it against those folks who just can't endure the banal cruelty one too often enounters on this planet. if i weren't such a inquisitive person i'd have left on my own volition long ago. pain or no pain i'm just too curious to see what happens next to leave just yet.

[innerlight]

Actually I felt this should be answered: to stop fear and/or pain. I think mostly people kill themselves because these or similar experiences are overwhelming, and they don't know how to stop them. When all known options seem to be exhausted, one goes for suicide, because what life has become is just too hard to bear. And one who hasn't experienced such depth of suffering would find it hard to understand and emphasize with ones who have.

Death would not be the end to fear if you were clinging onto fear, as you would just take it with you. The worst part is you would be moving to the mental planes. Which means what you think you draw to you. So if fear predominates your mind you would then bring fear to you in the mental planes. Faster than you could imagine in the physical plane.

If you are stuck in suffering then upon death you would continue to be stuck in suffering, and possible into a void of nothingness. So our fears and sufferings will not cease because we are deceased. It's not until we let go of them will we be able to be free of them.

Suicide would not be the option to get away from your earthly issues such as fear and suffering. You would continue to take them with you.

[Lynn]

Hello


I work with Spirits that have taken one's life. TRUST me it is not the simple way out one's at times feel it is. What issues one had in life still need healing in one's passing.

I have come to have to help some over to the Light that have not made that crossing as well, not out of regret for taking of their life but FEAR of not being worthy of going forth. Its NOT a nice place for a spirit to be. It too is hard on the family they leave behind. Many times one does not understand WHY they choose that path.

I was in that dark place once and if it was not for a devine intervention I would NOT be here today. I wanted OUT and me family would had been totally in the dark as to WHY, I would have left NO note or clues to why. Even a friend I had did not know I was in that dark place in life. I just seemed SHY.

I am not saying I condone it or do not condone it as it is a "personal" choice that one's make but when one is in that place there is HELP out there. I spent TWO year's on a hotline and I hope on hope I did make a difference.

I honestly can say I did not exhaust any OPTIONS when I went there, I just wanted OUT of all I was. Whom I was. Now looking back I was blessed I never went there. I payed that back to the one that helped me but being with him at his death, holding his hand as it slipped from mine in his passing.

He too in the end asked for the suffering to end, but that is not a choice I could make or do.


Lynn

[Internal Queries]

Death would not be the end to fear if you were clinging onto fear, as you would just take it with you. The worst part is you would be moving to the mental planes. Which means what you think you draw to you. So if fear predominates your mind you would then bring fear to you in the mental planes. Faster than you could imagine in the physical plane.

If you are stuck in suffering then upon death you would continue to be stuck in suffering, and possible into a void of nothingness. So our fears and sufferings will not cease because we are deceased. It's not until we let go of them will we be able to be free of them.

Suicide would not be the option to get away from your earthly issues such as fear and suffering. You would continue to take them with you.


wait a minute. if what your asserting as "fact" is true then why would the mode of death matter? if your "fact" were true than anyOne in fear and in pain at the point of demise would end up in the horrid state of being you describe. which would mean billions and billions of people are stuck suffering in a void because certainly billions and billions of people have been in fear and in pain when they died ... even little children. i guess you PLAN on leaving this world in a state of compete contentment. i hope so because if you found yourself facing a fearful and painful death you'd be SOL. right? you'd carry your fear and suffering with you into a void of nothingness. right?

you don't know anymore than anyOne else does as to what happens after physical death so why make assertions as if you do?

[innerlight]

wait a minute. if what your asserting as "fact" is true then why would the mode of death matter? if your "fact" were true than anyOne in fear and in pain at the point of demise would end up in the horrid state of being you describe. which would mean billions and billions of people are stuck suffering in a void because certainly billions and billions of people have been in fear and pain when they died ... even little children.

you don't know anymore than anyOne else does as to what happens after physical death so why make assertions as if you do?

I never stated anything as fact... However can you say that there are not billions and billions of people stuck in such places upon death if that was what they were holding upon death? Whether you commit suicide or were hit by a car would not matter. That was not what I said. I was saying death would not change that. So taking your life would not change that experience. It would just make your life shorter.

Read up on those that have had NDE and see their experiences that they have shared upon their out of body experiences when they were holding onto fear. Read about those, like Lynn just mentioned that have not fully crossed over because they hold onto their fear of judgement.

[Internal Queries]

I never stated anything as fact... However can you say that there are not billions and billions of people stuck in such places upon death if that was what they were holding upon death? Whether you commit suicide or were hit by a car would not matter. That was not what I said. I was saying death would not change that. So taking your life would not change that experience. It would just make your life shorter.

Read up on those that have had NDE and see their experiences that they have shared upon their out of body experiences when they were holding onto fear. Read about those, like Lynn just mentioned that have not fully crossed over because they hold onto their fear of judgement.


um ... people who contemplate suicide do not fear death. it's living day after day after day after day in unremitting misery that they fear. death can look mighty friendly when there's no hope of relief.

that's what i don't think some folks can grasp because they haven't ever been in so much pain that they came to view death as a mercy.

and what bleak outlook you have! do you really believe that anyOne who dies in fear and in pain stays that way? tell you what ... if i believed as you do i'd make sure i had complete control over my exit, that i was well prepared with enough of all the best drugs. i sure wouldn't take my chances that i might die in fear and pain by accident.

[innerlight]

um ... people who contemplate suicide do not fear death. it's living day after day after day after day in unremitting misery that they fear. death can look mighty friendly when there's no hope of relief.

that's what i don't think some folks can grasp because they haven't ever been in so much pain that they came to view death as a mercy.

You shouldn't make judgements about what people have and have not done in their life. Or what they go through and have not gone through.

I never said anything about fear of death. I merely stated whether you commit suicide or you are killed by natural causes. It will not change the thoughts, or feelings that you had before you died. If you stayed in fear and suffering then you would continue that. Just because you died it does not change that fact of what you were still thinking.

There are even experiences of people that will verify such train of thoughts that have either had NDE, dreams, or astral traveling to places where they have seen those that have committed suicide, or have died with their head full of such thoughts.

[innerlight]

and what bleak outlook you have! do you really believe that anyOne who dies in fear and in pain stays that way? tell you what ... if i believed as you do i'd make sure i had complete control over my exit, that i was well prepared with enough of all the best drugs. i sure wouldn't take my chances that i might die in fear and pain by accident.

You are quick to pass judgement on what I said. But I will say in none of my replies did I ever mention pain.

[Internal Queries]

You shouldn't make judgements about what people have and have not done in their life. Or what they go through and have not gone through.

I never said anything about fear of death. I merely stated whether you commit suicide or you are killed by natural causes. It will not change the thoughts, or feelings that you had before you died. If you stayed in fear and suffering then you would continue that. Just because you died it does not change that fact of what you were still thinking.

There are even experiences of people that will verify such train of thoughts that have either had NDE, dreams, or astral traveling to places where they have seen those that have committed suicide, or have died with their head full of such thoughts.

believe what you want but reports by astral travelers, lucid dreamers and NDEs doesn't mean anything except to the folks who experienced them since every person's life and death experience is different, custom made.

it's so weird how people make up rules for situations that they know nothing about.

[Internal Queries]

You are quick to pass judgement on what I said. But I will say in none of my replies did I ever mention pain.


pain causes fear. it's a natural body reaction. your belief system works for you but it sure wouldn't work for me because i might be fearful as i leave body and take that step into the unknown. according to you i'll end up suffering in a void of nothingness. what a merciless concept. no different than hell threats.

PFFFFT! on that.

[innerlight]

pain causes fear. it's a natural body reaction. your belief system works for you but it sure wouldn't work for me because i might be fearful as i leave body and take that step into the unknown. according to you i'll end up suffering in a void of nothingness. what a merciless concept.

PFFFFT! on that.

Actually... I never said you would end up in a void of nothingness. I chose my reply carefully and never said for a fact that one would. I said it was possible.. but never said that it would happen.

[Greenslade]

Death would not be the end to fear if you were clinging onto fear, as you would just take it with you. The worst part is you would be moving to the mental planes. Which means what you think you draw to you. So if fear predominates your mind you would then bring fear to you in the mental planes. Faster than you could imagine in the physical plane.
That works for me. I don't know the details about how much of our earthly Lives we take with us into the next, but from what I've heard it's quite a lot - more than most would tell you it does. Perhaps going from this plane into the next is trauma in itself, never mind the baggage on top.


If you are stuck in suffering then upon death you would continue to be stuck in suffering, and possible into a void of nothingness. So our fears and sufferings will not cease because we are deceased. It's not until we let go of them will we be able to be free of them.

Suicide would not be the option to get away from your earthly issues such as fear and suffering. You would continue to take them with you.
Ah now, there would come the question for me. If someone wants to get away from the pain and suffering by committing suicide? Perhaps they see the 'other side' as being free from pain and much happier, if that's the case then would they leave all that pain and suffering behind and have a better Life? Maybe that's not such a bad thing either.

[innerlight]

That works for me. I don't know the details about how much of our earthly Lives we take with us into the next, but from what I've heard it's quite a lot - more than most would tell you it does. Perhaps going from this plane into the next is trauma in itself, never mind the baggage on top.

To some I would imagine it would be a lot of trauma going from this plane to the next. More so if you are leaving behind kids, or spouses, family. To just be leaving that. Let alone if one felt it was early in their life. It could be very traumatic leaving this place. Let alone any other baggage you had on you upon leaving.


Ah now, there would come the question for me. If someone wants to get away from the pain and suffering by committing suicide? Perhaps they see the 'other side' as being free from pain and much happier, if that's the case then would they leave all that pain and suffering behind and have a better Life? Maybe that's not such a bad thing either.

Most people that are in those shoes see death as an escape from the pain and suffering they are in. They think that if they died they could get out of the pain they are in, and things would get better. It does sound like a good thought... However, that is a chance you would be taking. Perhaps it's better, perhaps it's worse. Does one really want to take the chance to find out if it's better? To me the worst thought one could have in those shoes would be the possibility of having to come back and do it all over again. If one life is rough imagine having to do it a second time, or a third.

[Internal Queries]

ugh. one sure can get weary of scare tactics designed to hold people in "place", especially if the "place" the scare tactic is designed to hold them in is abject misery.

[Lynn]

Hello


I not be sure it's scare tactics. We are given LIFE to life and we are given a time when that life comes to an end. It is not maybe a natural end to take one's life.

I have talked to many that have made that choice and the act has not worked, they do not pass, and for some they are blessed to move forward for other's its a struggle again and in some cases they succeed. Is it right or wrong to take one's life that is not something I think anyone can truly answer. We can never be another person to feel that place they be in. We all have our levels of what one can take on and what one can not. Its all a path of evolving of our Soul. Maybe for some that is the Soul's path.

I can honestly say that in all I have worked with NEVER once have I had a Spirit say to me WHY did I do this as I so feel if it worked they were meant on some level to go. If not there would have been a devine intervention.

I remember sitting at me desk at work one day and a man sailed past me window. I felt no panic from him, he was at peace. I had talked to him a few times in the elevator and I talked to him after he left the Earth Plane. I knew why he choose that path, right or wrong is not anyone's place to choose.

Would there be lessons to learn, I would think yes, is there punishment as in Sin I have to say NO. It comes down to the free will to act. Til one is in that very dark and most times lonely place no one can say what one might or might not do, but we are give life and at times it is a HUGE struggle, for some that struggle is simply too much.

What is the saddest thing is where one does buy into that Sin aspect of takeing of one's life and gets Stuck in the crossing over.


Lynn

[Internal Queries]

Hello


I not be sure it's scare tactics. We are given LIFE to life and we are given a time when that life comes to an end. It is not maybe a natural end to take one's life.

I have talked to many that have made that choice and the act has not worked, they do not pass, and for some they are blessed to move forward for other's its a struggle again and in some cases they succeed. Is it right or wrong to take one's life that is not something I think anyone can truly answer. We can never be another person to feel that place they be in. We all have our levels of what one can take on and what one can not. Its all a path of evolving of our Soul. Maybe for some that is the Soul's path.

I can honestly say that in all I have worked with NEVER once have I had a Spirit say to me WHY did I do this as I so feel if it worked they were meant on some level to go. If not there would have been a devine intervention.

I remember sitting at me desk at work one day and a man sailed past me window. I felt no panic from him, he was at peace. I had talked to him a few times in the elevator and I talked to him after he left the Earth Plane. I knew why he choose that path, right or wrong is not anyone's place to choose.

Would there be lessons to learn, I would think yes, is there punishment as in Sin I have to say NO. It comes down to the free will to act. Til one is in that very dark and most times lonely place no one can say what one might or might not do, but we are give life and at times it is a HUGE struggle, for some that struggle is simply too much.

What is the saddest thing is where one does buy into that Sin aspect of takeing of one's life and gets Stuck in the crossing over.


Lynn


sorry but what innerlight is saying is a scare tactic, plain and simple. .

i have no objection to people discouraging suicide, it's totally understandable that we'd want others to hang around as long possible. however, using fear and forboding as a way to keep the people in their bodies no matter how agonized they are is cruel and selfish. a better approach might be to offer hope and healing.

it's a open secret that most suicides are the elderly. is it your belief that when an old person decides they've had enough of living in their decaying body, alone and befret of love, that they'll end up "stuck" if they leave on their own terms?

[Lynn]

sorry but what innerlight is saying is a scare tactic, plain and simple. .

i have no objection to people discouraging suicide, it's totally understandable that we'd want others to hang around as long possible. however, using fear and forboding as a way to keep the people in their bodies no matter how agonized they are is cruel and selfish. a better approach might be to offer hope and healing.

it's a open secret that most suicides are the elderly. is it your belief that when an old person decides they've had enough of living in their decaying body, alone and befret of love, that they'll end up "stuck" if the leave on their own terms?


Hello


What I have always offered was hope and healing. Too I being empathic I can FEEL that place another is in. When one's Light gets so very low but one seems to HELD living I have to honestly wonder why. Being with one's at the end where nothing but medical intervention keeps them alive I wonder on that being fair or even at times just. Too whom is to make that choice, as society does have to have standards of care and respect.

Had a friend just loose his elderly Mom to the taking of her life. While the original attempt did not work right off a few days later it did take hold. Her heart and liver were too weak to take the strains and recover. So its ruled sucicide as her casue of death.

She moved over right off YES becasue it was pure in her thoughts she was DONE there was no hesitations or questions on right or wrong. She knew she was done. Its when one has that fear of Sin, or punisment with them, and one has that shadow of doubt in the mind that one is not making the right choice.

Me very Grandmother took her life too, again the initial did not work but she passed a few day's later. Told the ambulance driver she should not have taken so many pills as it did not work.

I remember being very anrgy at her for doing that, but too I knew she was going to suffer if she lived on. She was in her 80's and walked everyday, she would have soon lost that part of life's freedoms.

Same with me Father, he had a massive heart attack and that did not take him our right off, but I know from me and other's talking with him in Spirit he so did not want to live with the WHEN will the next one come and will I be a burden to me family. His will to go took him. While it took me til me Son saw him to forgive him for going and understand WHY he went, it was the right choice for him.

We all have choices to make. Too we miss one's when they go. Its not easy for the living or for the one going. What is wrong is the idea of "punshiment" there is not that place, but there is lessons and more learnings.

Too that is WHY there be one's that are put forth that can work in Spirit and with Spirit to help them. Its a blessing I was given and one I too I for a long time struggled with the WHY and the I don't want it, but now I bless being me.


Lynn

[Internal Queries]

fair enough (and deep condolences **hugs**) but let me ask you this ...

throughout history religions have put "the fear of God" into people, used guilt and hell threats and threats of nasty incarnation to control the masses. so what happens to those basicly good people who die believing they're horrible people, deserving of dire judgements and punishments? do their beliefs make it so? does some beautiful consciousness end up in torment because their church led them to believe they're unworthy of peace?

and would that mean that a really evil person who believes themselves to be good and worthy of bliss ends up in heaven?

[innerlight]

sorry but what innerlight is saying is a scare tactic, plain and simple. .

i have no objection to people discouraging suicide, it's totally understandable that we'd want others to hang around as long possible. however, using fear and forboding as a way to keep the people in their bodies no matter how agonized they are is cruel and selfish. a better approach might be to offer hope and healing.

it's a open secret that most suicides are the elderly. is it your belief that when an old person decides they've had enough of living in their decaying body, alone and befret of love, that they'll end up "stuck" if they leave on their own terms?
I didn't use a scare tactic... I stated the obvious. Your mental state of being is not going to stop just because you take your life. Or if you are hit by a car. You are not going to just pass over and then everything is rainbows and bunnies because you are no longer in this world that is a miserable existence, is I think what you called it. If you are feeling so much pain, anguish, and hopelessness that you want to take your life. That is not a happy state to be in. I know, first hand. I have been in the hospital twice for intentionally OD'ing on pills. Having your stomach pumped while your ex fiance looks on at you. Is not a happy feeling, and is not a feeling that just disappears because you may leave this plane. That is what stays with you.

That mental state is not going to stop because you stopped your existence on earth. Regardless of how it happened. To break free of that suffering and misery you must break free of it yourself.

[Silver]

it's a open secret that most suicides are the elderly. is it your belief that when an old person decides they've had enough of living in their decaying body, alone and befret of love, that they'll end up "stuck" if they leave on their own terms?

I think it's mathematical, there are more people than ever in our world and from what I read or hear fromthe media, it's a whole lot of different 'age groups' ~ just yesterday read a story about 2 young school girls who had a suicide pact and they were found dead in one of their homes (they'd been bullied on the internet and at school). Scads of soldiers now are committing suicide in the field or when they get home and suffer from PTSD etc. Young adults my son's age (23) are well known statistically for being in that dangerous age group. Last but not least, the elderly as you mentioned. The best thing that those of us 'left behind' can do is simply honor their memories and do our best to understand what was going on with them, without wringing our hands too much.

[Internal Queries]

I didn't use a scare tactic... I stated the obvious. Your mental state of being is not going to stop just because you take your life. Or if you are hit by a car. You are not going to just pass over and then everything is rainbows and bunnies because you are no longer in this world that is a miserable existence, is I think what you called it. If you are feeling so much pain, anguish, and hopelessness that you want to take your life. That is not a happy state to be in. I know, first hand. I have been in the hospital twice for intentionally OD'ing on pills. Having your stomach pumped while your ex fiance looks on at you. Is not a happy feeling, and is not a feeling that just disappears because you may leave this plane. That is what stays with you.

That mental state is not going to stop because you stopped your existence on earth. Regardless of how it happened. To break free of that suffering and misery you must break free of it yourself.


well then, i guess all the people, children even, who died in terror in some war torn country are now wandering around suffering in some horrid void of nothingness.

**shrug**

[innerlight]

well then, i guess all the people, children even, who died in terror in some war torn country are now wandering around suffering in some horrid void of nothingness.

**shrug**
You still only want to hear what you want to hear. As I already said I never stated that a person would enter into a place of a void on nothingness. I said it was possible. If you perceive yourself to be in such a place in your life then it is quite possible that is where you will perceive your self to be upon passing. Being in terror is not suffering. The suffering is created when they perceive it to always be that way. That what is creating the terror in them will continuously do so.

[Internal Queries]

You still only want to hear what you want to hear. As I already said I never stated that a person would enter into a place of a void on nothingness. I said it was possible. If you perceive yourself to be in such a place in your life then it is quite possible that is where you will perceive your self to be upon passing. Being in terror is not suffering. The suffering is created when they perceive it to always be that way. That what is creating the terror in them will continuously do so.


anything is "possible", innerlight. it's possible we all end up dancing the Hokey Pokey on ex-planet Pluto.

Being in terror is not suffering. The suffering is created when they perceive it to always be that way. That what is creating the terror in them will continuously do so.

^ that makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Lynn]

fair enough (and deep condolences **hugs**) but let me ask you this ...

throughout history religions have put "the fear of God" into people, used guilt and hell threats and threats of nasty incarnation to control the masses. so what happens to those basicly good people who die believing they're horrible people, deserving of dire judgements and punishments? do their beliefs make it so? does some beautiful consciousness end up in torment because their church led them to believe they're unworthy of peace?

and would that mean that a really evil person who believes themselves to be good and worthy of bliss ends up in heaven?

Hello

I so feel that Religon has over the history gotten a bad wrap, I dont feel it was even meant to "control" in fear as the passers on of the Bible took it forth. More it was to give man the idea of doing and trying one's best.

Man has always had some that so seek that ultimate control, too in that there are many lessons that are learned.

Does one's beleifs give them that judgement in the end, I would have to say no, as the Spirit of the person is the essence that one was , to me tis the Soul that moves forward along that path. When one is in Spirit one is much like in the physical body FREE to experience what one wants and to make the changes along that path. If that be to find that place of judgement that is up to them. More what one seeks though is peace. That peace that one lacked in life in the body, that place of things are WHOLE. To be free from the suffering one might have had in the physical body, or the mental issues one might have had .


I do not buy into a Heaven or the counter a Hell, more Levels of Light and learnings. That said yes the mass murder's of the World do move over into Spirit and are given what one needs in healing. They do not go into a pit of fire. I know I have crossed one and he did not stay punished.


Lynn

[BlueSky]

wait a minute. if what your asserting as "fact" is true then why would the mode of death matter? if your "fact" were true than anyOne in fear and in pain at the point of demise would end up in the horrid state of being you describe. which would mean billions and billions of people are stuck suffering in a void because certainly billions and billions of people have been in fear and in pain when they died ... even little children. i guess you PLAN on leaving this world in a state of compete contentment. i hope so because if you found yourself facing a fearful and painful death you'd be SOL. right? you'd carry your fear and suffering with you into a void of nothingness. right?

you don't know anymore than anyOne else does as to what happens after physical death so why make assertions as if you do?
Anything is possible......using your own words.
Maybe some people do know what others don't. It is possible.
Look at the Tibetan Wheel of Life and Death.
Who is to say what is known or not just because we may not know.
Just saying...........

[Greenslade]

Most people that are in those shoes see death as an escape from the pain and suffering they are in. They think that if they died they could get out of the pain they are in, and things would get better. It does sound like a good thought... However, that is a chance you would be taking. Perhaps it's better, perhaps it's worse. Does one really want to take the chance to find out if it's better? To me the worst thought one could have in those shoes would be the possibility of having to come back and do it all over again. If one life is rough imagine having to do it a second time, or a third.
Perhaps in another Life we come at it from a different angle, we are different people with different backgrounds and experiences but the same Soul. Perhaps if she did go through the same thing again she might be able to cope better. The other possibility is that perhaps she gained everything she needed to from that particular experience the first time and won't need to go through it a second time. All we'll ever have I suppose is conjecture according to beliefs. But then, Free Will kicking in it's perhaps something she might decide not to go through again.

[Bluegreen]

I have always read that suicide is never good unless it is done for selfless reasons such as, for example, to stop oneself from betraying other people under torture.
We all have a role to fulfill and to commit suicide would leave a hole that cannot be filled by any other soul.
I have also read that the first thing someone said after committing suicide was "How stupid! Now I have to do it all over again." (It was in a book by Michael Newton.)

Only Death may open the door to his Inn, and he who tries to enter as a felon shall be imprisoned. I have told you,..., that God does not give His children a burden they cannot carry if they will but use their strength. ... Each time that we are born there is a road which we must travel; in it there are valleys and mountains; wineshops and prisons. The road is not of our choosing, though it was made by us long since, but the manner of our journey lies in our own hands. The time we must spend on the road is allotted by God, and it has been decreed by Him that we must wait for death to summon us home. If this were not so, all of us who can see a little beyond the limitations of the flesh would put off our bodies like a leper's cloak: for beyond death there is all that we long to find on earth, in its perfection.
[...]
She was bound into the present, cut off not only from time but from her own spirit, so that when the water from her journey as Lucia returns into the jar of her experience, with it will go a memory so strong that she will never again seek the same way of escape: the escape that is no escape.
From Life as Carola by Joan Grant. A remembered life in 16th century Italy.

[Lynn]

Hello


I am one of the thought that at times maybe one does have to come back to do it all over again, with the hopes that one gets it right. At times the best lessons are learned from having the same struggle over and over again til that light bulb goes on and say OK solution.

What is the saying thrid time lucky. I look at how many times in me life that saying can well apply. Too the oppostie to that be three strikes your out.....all in persepctive really. Balance and counter balance.

Free will, the ability of one to make choices, free from certain kinds of constraints.
It is the ability to make a choice on an action that might well have various alternatives. We can look at free will being connected to moral codes of conduct. Where one has to be true to the rules the govern one’s actions. It too goes deeper than just that as we are more than the physical body we have . There is a Soul to us that we too have responsibly to for that path of learning. Free will on that level might well mean just being able to show and know the value of LOVe and to extend that in friendships. NOT to always have it on the level of moral responsibilities.

One's ask me would I choose to again have the NDE I had, and I say yes as from that came a lot of changes and growth in learnings and respect. While I do still suffer the effects of the damage done in that event I wake embracing being here. I embrace that very LIFE that came so close to being gone from me. I had FREE WILL to come back, I know that.


Lynn

[innerlight]

Perhaps in another Life we come at it from a different angle, we are different people with different backgrounds and experiences but the same Soul. Perhaps if she did go through the same thing again she might be able to cope better. The other possibility is that perhaps she gained everything she needed to from that particular experience the first time and won't need to go through it a second time. All we'll ever have I suppose is conjecture according to beliefs. But then, Free Will kicking in it's perhaps something she might decide not to go through again.

There is always that possibility. Well, if we say that past lives, and future lives exist. It is a nice thought to say well if I had another chance I could do things differently... but why wait till the next life? Why not do them now?

Yes, it is all conjecture, as some will not believe what they hear no matter how many times they hear it. They will only believe it when they experience it themselves, and sometimes they may dismiss it as tricks of the mind.

To be in those shoes is not a pleasant place to be in. Where you've lost all hope that the only option you feel you can make is the loss of life. Depression is one of the worst things a person can go through. It is a shame that people do not get the proper help they need and only get fed pills to silence, and numb their pain and suffering.

[7luminaries]

Anything is possible......using your own words.
Maybe some people do know what others don't. It is possible.
Look at the Tibetan Wheel of Life and Death.
Who is to say what is known or not just because we may not know.
Just saying...........

This is true. The Tibetan monks and many other sages would say they have memories from not only other lives but even the "inbetween", what we call the afterlife or the spirit realm.

Regarding suicide, I would think it probably means you will have to learn those lessons again...in whatever way is appropriate. The biggest lesson being that the divine presence is always around us and within us, and that our connection to Source is a great wellspring of strength and light.

Peace & blessings to all,
7L

[LIFE]

If fear predominates your mind you would then bring fear to you in the mental planes. Faster than you could imagine in the physical plane. If you are stuck in suffering then upon death you would continue to be stuck in suffering, and possible into a void of nothingness. So our fears and sufferings will not cease because we are deceased.

First of all, this and every other theory about what happens after death, if anything at all other than obliteration/end of experience, is firmly in the realm of pure speculation.

You actually seem to be drumming up fear, which seems contrary to the thrust of your post. "You better get rid of fear, or fear will throw you into a world you will really fear, like a "void of nothingness."

First of all, nothingness couldn't be experienced, because there is, by definition, nothing. But this is beside the point.

Interestingly enough, you seem to be exploiting one's fear when you imply unimaginable horrors of this "void of nothingness". Thus, you are utilizing fear to convince one of the necessity of eliminating all fears. And this is precisely where things get convoluted and circular. Based upon your conclusions, it seems valid that one should fear the consequences of not releasing their fears -the fearful state that this fear will purportedly immerse them in.

And, interestingly enough, what you've seemingly revealed may be your very own fear. Your own fear of fear, or more precisely, your fear of dying in fear. I guess Winston Churchill was right.

[innerlight]

First of all, this and every other theory about what happens after death, if anything at all other than obliteration/end of experience, is firmly in the realm of pure speculation.

You actually seem to be drumming up fear, which seems contrary to the thrust of your post. "You better get rid of fear, or fear will throw you into a world you will really fear, like a "void of nothingness."

First of all, nothingness couldn't be experienced, because there is, by definition, nothing. But this is beside the point.

Interestingly enough, you seem to be exploiting one's fear when you imply unimaginable horrors of this "void of nothingness". Thus, you are utilizing fear to convince one of the necessity of eliminating all fears. And this is precisely where things get convoluted and circular. Based upon your conclusions, it seems valid that one should fear the consequences of not releasing their fears -the fearful state that this fear will purportedly immerse them in.

And, interestingly enough, what you've seemingly revealed may be your very own fear. Your own fear of fear, or more precisely, your fear of dying in fear. I guess Winston Churchill was right.

I was not using fear, or trying to drum up fear.. I was merely showing what could happen if people hold on to fear upon passing.. But it seems people would rather hold onto their fear instead of let it go. I suppose it's a fear of letting go of fear. It is their prerogative to do so if that is what they chose.

It's always interesting when people say things how others will twist it around to be about them, and how they truly feel. I have no fear of dying, or holding onto fear. I let go of things such as this.

I was stating that just because you die does not mean you become someone else. You are who you are. Your thoughts will carry with you until you let go of them. Some thoughts do become imprinted into us.

I never said you would go to a void of nothingness, but it seems people will hold onto such thoughts. Those that end up in such places end up because that is what they want to believe. Not because they are punished and sent there for the rest of eternity. Unless they chose to believe they deserve such a thing.

[Silver]

To be in those shoes is not a pleasant place to be in. Where you've lost all hope that the only option you feel you can make is the loss of life. Depression is one of the worst things a person can go through. It is a shame that people do not get the proper help they need and only get fed pills to silence, and numb their pain and suffering.

When help more often than not comes in the form of pills or talking to people who may or may not get the gist of why one suffers so that they have thoughts of checking out, is not much in the way of comfort and/or answers but most of all TIMELY. If whatever (X) a person feels they need to alter their thinking about seriously taking their own lives, does not appear on the horizon, it's the next logical belief that it doesn't exist or won't exist in time to help them steer away from doing it. This is where their anxiety is the next stepping stone towards that goal. There are pills that do not bring on more danger to help minimize one's anxiety, (e.g. lorazepam, etc.) but part of any drug or any assist may need to be something that the patient believes in, the placebo effect is oftentimes as much a part of the effectiveness as the pill or procedure itself.

All the more reason to spend more energy honoring their memory as opposed to judging or expounding on 'the cure' or 'the answer' to this sad sad issue.

[innerlight]

When help more often than not comes in the form of pills or talking to people who may or may not get the gist of why one suffers so that they have thoughts of checking out, is not much in the way of comfort and/or answers but most of all TIMELY. If whatever (X) a person feels they need to alter their thinking about seriously taking their own lives, does not appear on the horizon, it's the next logical belief that it doesn't exist or won't exist in time to help them steer away from doing it. This is where their anxiety is the next stepping stone towards that goal. There are pills that do not bring on more danger to help minimize one's anxiety, (e.g. lorazepam, etc.) but part of any drug or any assist may need to be something that the patient believes in, the placebo effect is oftentimes as much a part of the effectiveness as the pill or procedure itself.

All the more reason to spend more energy honoring their memory as opposed to judging or expounding on 'the cure' or 'the answer' to this sad sad issue.

Actually many of those pills do bring on a danger and that is in some instances those pills increase depression and bring about suicidal tendencies. However that does not mean they should not be used if they are in dire need. And as you said a person that has firmly set their mind on what they want will not be easy to sway to a different opinion. No matter how many pills, or talks they are given until they decide differently things may not change for them. That is when support, love, and comfort come into play.

Is their a "cure" if there was this would not be an issue. The only thing that we can do is support and love them and be with them when they need it. Most in those shoes feel they are alone, and perhaps if they new they weren't it may help them.

[Lynn]

Hello


What is very scary is how matter of factly the drug companies state that on the TV commercials. Use of this product might increase thoughts of sucide and should not be used by teens or woman that are pregnant or might become pregnant. OMG.

The chances are rather high maybe for most suffering from depression might well be in taht place of being closer to ideas of taking one's life. What the worry is be maybe that one does not "recognize" the signs there and might well act on "thoughts" alone. Sad really to be in that place.

Having lost one's to the taking of thier own life I know well how no matter at times what is done or what med's are used that be simply maybe their life path. Some so try and try and in the end it just becomes too much and they take that out. Right or wrong could it just be their path.

When the case is truly sad is when it is a child that has been bullied into that place. Where they feel that they can not say somehting and have the situation made right. That is a dark and lonely place, one I know as I was there. I never asked for help but I was "Given" the help I needed. I have often wondered on "why" that was, why some get that devine intervention and other's do not. Maybe it was simply not me time to check out of the body life.

What I can say to one's stuggling along DO NOT be affraid to reach out and talk about what is going on. There are avenues out there more and more so now.

Lynn

[Silver]

Actually many of those pills do bring on a danger and that is in some instances those pills increase depression and bring about suicidal tendencies. However that does not mean they should not be used if they are in dire need. And as you said a person that has firmly set their mind on what they want will not be easy to sway to a different opinion. No matter how many pills, or talks they are given until they decide differently things may not change for them. That is when support, love, and comfort come into play.

Is their a "cure" if there was this would not be an issue. The only thing that we can do is support and love them and be with them when they need it. Most in those shoes feel they are alone, and perhaps if they new they weren't it may help them.

That's why I said (I mentioned only lorazepam which is not an antidepressant that I'm aware of), I simply believe the drug co's and the rest of the hierarchy treat the gp as their lab, we are their guinea pigs. Personally, I was amazed at how lorazepam helped me and I'm not suicidal, they gave it to me to help sleep And to help relieve anxiety and it worked very well. A woman at work said it worked great for her when she went on vacation (she doesn't fly well). So, something like that could help a person get over anxiety spells and make a difference in their lives.

[LIFE]

I was merely showing what could happen if people hold on to fear upon passing..

Right, but we just don't know what, if anything, happens upon death.

To say something may happen, is the equivalent of saying that the same event may not happen, which is in essence saying nothing at all.


I was stating that just because you die does not mean you become someone else...Your thoughts will carry with you until you let go of them.

You are implying a continuation of experience post-death, which is pure speculation. It is wholly unconvincing that there is anything after death, much less that you carry your thoughts with you, or that there will be a you to carry them.


You are who you are.

What about those who posit that there is, in fact, no you at all?

I never said you would go to a void of nothingness

Ok, you said "possibly into a void of nothingness." Either way, the implications are the same. There could be no such state of ending up in a void of nothingness anyways. As if nothingness could be experienced.

Those that end up in such places end up because that is what they want to believe.

Ok, so if one believes that it is possible for them to "end up in such places" (i.e., that they could or should go there), it is this very belief that could actually put them there.

You evidently believe, or want to believe, that its possible to end up in such places such as a "void of nothingness." According to your very own logic then, this very belief that you have (the belief that its possible, that is) could allow you to end up in such a place. No?

So, on this basis, for those who don't invest any belief in such groundless speculations, ending up in such places wouldn't occur.