Is Everything Predetermined?

[Uday_Advaita]

Is Everything predetermined? If so. Is there no Free Will?

I am not seeking answers to these questions.

Science has a take on this.

Late Dr. Stephen Hawking, the well known physicist, was asked this question.
Is Everything predetermined?

His answer was. - “Yes. (Please note he said Yes first and then immediately added) It may as well be not, because you can never know what is predetermined.”

Principle of Uncertainty, Quantum Mechanics, Bells Theorem, Theory of Relativity – All these point to a certain reality, which is subject to interpretation.

And yet the search for the Grand Unified Theory is still going on.

Various Spiritual Masters too have said many different things in many different contexts, about the above doctrine and as it stands there will be many different interpretations.

What I am looking at is the effect, of acceptance OR non-acceptance of such a doctrine, on the common people.

Some may say – If everything is predetermined – Why should I do anything? Would it lead to this kind of fatalistic attitude?
Some may say – It is all my effort that have led to successes – However as soon as failure strikes – It is my bad luck. My destiny.

There may be people who take things in their stride and say It is my Karma.

I am sure there are many more questions that would arise……

Each one of us would have personal experiential understanding on the above points. It would be interesting to know…..

[Unseeking Seeker]

Ah! But you said at the outset that you seek no answers! :)

***

[Native spirit]

My answer to this would be Yes some things are predetermined but not all this is where Free will comes in. I believe our births are predetermined but not always wanted as in my case I didn't want to come back.and I believe that death is predetermined you go when your time is up.


Namaste

[Uday_Advaita]

Ah! But you said at the outset that you seek no answers! :)

***
Wasn't your reaction predestined?

[Uday_Advaita]

My answer to this would be Yes some things are predetermined but not all this is where Free will comes in. I believe our births are predetermined but not always wanted as in my case I didn't want to come back.and I believe that death is predetermined you go when your time is up.


Namaste

Your's is an interesting thought.
I had read that a spiritual teacher described free will is like - A sheep tied to a pole with a long rope. The sheep has all the free will in that (sweep) area. Namaskar

[Unseeking Seeker]

God being love absolute and where love is there is no force, our free will determines how long we wish to playfully engage in delusion of duality :)

***

[iamthat]

I had read that a spiritual teacher described free will is like - A sheep tied to a pole with a long rope. The sheep has all the free will in that (sweep) area. Namaskar

A couple of quotes from Alice Bailey.

It might be said that within the limits of the intelligent direction of the intelligent man, there is free will, as far as activity in the human kingdom is concerned. Where no mind activity is present, and where there is no power to discriminate, to analyse and to choose, there is no free will. Within the vaster processes of the Plan, however, as it includes the entire planetary evolution, there is, for the tiny unit, man, no free will. He is subject, for instance, to what we call "acts of God", and before these he is helpless. He has no choice and no escape. Herein lies a hint upon the working of karma in the human kingdom; karma and intelligent responsibility are inextricably woven and interwoven.

The great distinction between the human kingdom in the three worlds, and the other kingdoms in nature, is the factor of free will. In the matter of death, this free will has, in the last analysis, a definite relation to the soul; the will of the soul is either consciously or unconsciously followed, where the decision of death is concerned, and this idea carries with it many implications, which students would do well to ponder.

Peace.

[Miss Hepburn]

...our free will determines how long we wish to playfully engage in delusion of duality :)
***I agree...I might have said, 'our stupidity...", tho.:D

[inavalan]

Is Everything predetermined? If so. Is there no Free Will?

I am not seeking answers to these questions.

Science has a take on this.

Late Dr. Stephen Hawking, the well known physicist, was asked this question.
Is Everything predetermined?

His answer was. - “Yes. (Please note he said Yes first and then immediately added) It may as well be not, because you can never know what is predetermined.”

Principle of Uncertainty, Quantum Mechanics, Bells Theorem, Theory of Relativity – All these point to a certain reality, which is subject to interpretation.

And yet the search for the Grand Unified Theory is still going on.

Various Spiritual Masters too have said many different things in many different contexts, about the above doctrine and as it stands there will be many different interpretations.

What I am looking at is the effect, of acceptance OR non-acceptance of such a doctrine, on the common people.

Some may say – If everything is predetermined – Why should I do anything? Would it lead to this kind of fatalistic attitude?
Some may say – It is all my effort that have led to successes – However as soon as failure strikes – It is my bad luck. My destiny.

There may be people who take things in their stride and say It is my Karma.

I am sure there are many more questions that would arise……

Each one of us would have personal experiential understanding on the above points. It would be interesting to know…..

You create your own reality. You can see your future, and you can change it as you like.

Such questions can't be answered using logic, or science.

[pseudonymus]

Yes. There is no such thing as free will:

"Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers." - - LINK (https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html)

Decisions are made before you are ever consciously aware of making a choice. Free will is an illusion of the mind.

Affirmation are thus really important because your unconscious mind makes decisions for you.

[inavalan]

Yes. There is no such thing as free will:

"Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers." - - LINK (https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html)

Decisions are made before you are ever consciously aware of making a choice. Free will is an illusion of the mind.

Affirmation are thus really important because your unconscious mind makes decisions for you.

In my opinion that research data points to different conclusions.

When you get into a Q&A with your higher wisdom (guide / self / etc.) you often notice that you get an answer before you finish asking your question. It is like whatever you decide to ask happened at another level than your conscious, and it takes a finite amount of delay until you become conscious of your own question. The higher wisdom that replies gets access to your question faster than your conscious.

The experiment you pointed to, shows the same thing.

So, the conclusion is that the conscious you isn't the one that controls your actions, but a subconscious you does that.

Coming back to this thread's question(s), your conscious doesn't have free will, because it just tunes into what your subconscious wills, but that doesn't mean that the future is predetermined.

[Kerubiel]

Is Everything predetermined? If so. Is there no Free Will?

I am not seeking answers to these questions.

Science has a take on this.

Late Dr. Stephen Hawking, the well known physicist, was asked this question.
Is Everything predetermined?

His answer was. - “Yes. (Please note he said Yes first and then immediately added) It may as well be not, because you can never know what is predetermined.”

Principle of Uncertainty, Quantum Mechanics, Bells Theorem, Theory of Relativity – All these point to a certain reality, which is subject to interpretation.

And yet the search for the Grand Unified Theory is still going on.

Various Spiritual Masters too have said many different things in many different contexts, about the above doctrine and as it stands there will be many different interpretations.

What I am looking at is the effect, of acceptance OR non-acceptance of such a doctrine, on the common people.

Some may say – If everything is predetermined – Why should I do anything? Would it lead to this kind of fatalistic attitude?
Some may say – It is all my effort that have led to successes – However as soon as failure strikes – It is my bad luck. My destiny.

There may be people who take things in their stride and say It is my Karma.

I am sure there are many more questions that would arise……

Each one of us would have personal experiential understanding on the above points. It would be interesting to know…..

Long ago I performed some magic on my past. I wanted to reconnect to a girl I knew long ago and used telepathy to bridge the span. I connected to her (in the past when i was with her) and told her many things about me in the future. I then ended the conversation and remembered her telling me all about it in the past. I pondered this conclusion many times and she indeed remembered the vision of me connecting to her which she said was a dream. Since I rememebred the occurance after the connection and not before I concluded that I had altered the timeline, creating a new past by entering into it from the future. I thereby conclude that the future is not predetermined at all but free and every changing.

I also had an experience with the source showing me that every possible diension exists of reality. That every outcome has already been lived. I conclude that the answer to every question is both yes and no, being a choice. So is reality predetermined? Yes and no, for everything lives (is created) and everything dies.

[pseudonymus]

Long ago I performed some magic on my past. I wanted to reconnect to a girl I knew long ago [...] Since I rememebred the occurance after the connection and not before I concluded that I had altered the timeline, creating a new past by entering into it from the future. I thereby conclude that the future is not predetermined at all but free and every changing.


So you performed magic, to reconnect with a girl you knew?

Did your magic work: According to your desire/will? Did you re-connect with her?

If the answer is yes, you did reconnect with her, and that your magic was successful, then: every event between the "past" you altered to the moment you re-connected with her had to happen in a certain way, in order for everything to fall into place, such that your desired end result is manifested.

And so, still: it is Predetermination. That magic works in the first place is indicative. We live in a causal universe, meaning a univserse with runs on the law of karma [cause & effect].

For magic to even be real and work, every "chess move" needed in Life to create any end result must be predetermined: every person must be at the right place, at the right time, doing the right thing. Every person involved must have the right emotions and impulses so that your end result your magic was intended to manifest can materialize.

That's pre-determination.

You used magic to change the script. A metaphore: you are the producer of a theater play. You didn't like the first script of you and this girl being apart and dis-connected. So you altered the script. But: there is still a stage, and there are still actors on that stage, and every actor on that stage must follow that new script. If they follow that new script: it is pre-determination. Everything each actor does, must do, say, and must say has been pre-designated. Otherwise, you cannot get the end result you desired.

There are only two real ways to see this: 1) either pre-determination is not real, and therefore magic does not work; or, 2) pre-determination is real, and magic works.

Pre-Determination is fundamental. It can even be found on the atomic level. For example: You have two oxygen atoms, and they link up with a hydrogen atom. So what is the only result they can produce? H2O. That's pre-determination. By Natural Law, if and when two oxygen atoms links with one hydrogen atom, they must make H2O. It cannot be anything else. That's predetermination.

Predetermination is also fundamental to mathematics, which is the language of the Cosmos. For example: 2x2 cannot be anything else but 4.

Predetermination is also fundamental to biological life. For example: If an organism has iron based hemoglobin in its blood, then because iron absorbes oxygen atoms, the organism must breathe oxygen. It can be no other way. The presence of iron in blood Determines what the organism will breathe.

Predetermination is also fundamental to human language. If not for predetermination, your phone wouldn't work. For example: you are texting somebody. You type the letter "T." Only a vowel, or certain consonents can follow that "T." You type an "R" after the "T." So you have "TR." That combination of consonents has Determined that the word you are trying to type can only be a finite number of words. The more letters you add to that "TR" the more predetermined what word it can only be. Let's say you type "TRE." Your phone can guess from that combination of letters what you are trying to type, because the combination of letters deterimes what the word can or cannot be.

If Karma [cause & effect] is real, then we live in a universe based on pre-determinism. The more actionable input you do, the more determined the outcome will be. Just like in the letter example. For instance, guess what the outcome of this causal chain of actionable input is: 1) you go to high school, 2) you graduate with a 4.0 GPA, 3) You go to med school, 4) You graduate, 5) You take your residency, 6)...

What's the outcome going to be? You already know that steps 6, and 7, and 8 will be that you are a doctor working in a hospital. It can be no other way. That's predeterminism and that's karma [cause & effect]. The more actionable input you commit, the more determined the outcome will be.

[Joe Mc]

Perhaps the glory of the notion of free will is born when your free will and the divine will meet ? Perhaps they are meeting all the time, secretly liaising.lol The idea of a divine plan is an attractive idea too that it is hoped that the subject, namely yourself, through revelation, discovery and the various pathways comes closer to the divine plan which has been ordained for you ? Thinking about this idea in this way is new to me so please forgive me extrapolating.

So if the divine plan is that you should breed or discover a new type of Rose or flower then ' free will' can bring you into alignment with that plan or it can take you away from it. Perhaps this idea is akin to what the French existentialist Jean Paul Satre called Mauvois Soi or Bad Faith. To live an inauthentic life is to have lived in bad faith, to have exercised your Free Will through fear, greed or whatever else which has taken you away from the divine plan ? Leonard Cohen said in one of his songs ...Everybody everybody to love will come but like a refugee... This line from his song also hints at some kind of inexorable destiny that you can be big and brave enough, perhaps stupid enough to thwart or that you can live authentically and surrender to what you love and what you would be good at in this world. All through free will of course ! lol. Thanks.

[neil]

Yes. There is no such thing as free will:

"Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers." - - LINK (https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html)

Decisions are made before you are ever consciously aware of making a choice. Free will is an illusion of the mind.

Affirmation are thus really important because your unconscious mind makes decisions for you.

Information from spiritual beings, suggests that the brain does not have sentient conscious intelligence as a component of it's
design features.

Spirit suggest that the brain is only just a processing unit for the processing of incoming information, from the sences of the body, and also for processing incoming streams of thought via the energetic silver cord connection, from the mind of a soul being who is connected to the Earth body.

The information comes to the brain from the mind of the soulself and or from the sences of the earth body and that info is processed into a different content, than was delivered to the brain, so that newly out flowing content from the brain, which is going to be delivered the body or spiritual mind can utilize it after receiving it... As both the sences of the body and the spiritual mind operate on and with different forms of energy and content.

And this process is rather quick but can take time...but definately not 10 seconds.

However there is also another phenomena, where by dark spiritual beings can and do connect energetically to us at a Soul level..(their Soulself to our Soulself)..and do interfere/hinder with and delay the transfer of information between the Soulself and the brain through the energetic Silver cord. Which definately can moreso prolong the transfer of information between SOULSELF and brain.

And as far as free will, spirit says of course earthlings have 'free will', but it can be very much hindered by dark spiritual beings who can and very much do connect to earthlings.
And the same for sub'consciousness, it is only just dark spiritual beings connecting to us and discreetly speaking making us think that we have a SUBCONSCIOUS component.

Spirit says that we are 100% conscious spiritual beings connected via the silver cord to a non sentient non conscious earth body without sub'consciousness. And that earth science can not figure it all out.
AND THAT NOTHING IS PREDETERMINED, BY ANYONE NOT EVEN THE GOD ENTITY.

[Uday_Advaita]

You create your own reality. You can see your future, and you can change it as you like.

Such questions can't be answered using logic, or science.

Well said.

Sadhguru (Isha foundation India) always says – “You make your own life”

I have come across many celebrated writers, Management thinkers professing that – What you dearly wish comes true. They call it as “Self-fulfilling prophesy”.

Many of us have experienced events in our own life or in the lives of our dear ones which defy any logic.

Why bad things happen to good people?

Why good things happen to bad people?

When all such “Why” questions don’t get any answers, we turn to the concept of God and say – Oh it is God’s will.

How does the concept of Non-duality guides us to understand the continuous unfolding of event in this world – The life as we know
Namaskar

[Unseeking Seeker]

Many of us have experienced events in our own life or in the lives of our dear ones which defy any logic.

Why bad things happen to good people?

Why good things happen to bad people?

When all such “Why” questions don’t get any answers, we turn to the concept of God and say – Oh it is God’s will.

How does the concept of Non-duality guides us to understand the continuous unfolding of event in this world – The life as we know
Namaskar

***

Good, bad as determined by materialism, which is ephemeral is an egoic viewpoint.

Look at it from the soul view ... beyond earth life spans. The lessons are for evolution of our soul consciousness. Often karmic cleansing is involved ...

The materialistic person often gets wealth since as at this moment in his evolution he needs to seek joy in materialism. When he self realises that nothing enduring is available in the external domain, he turns inwards voluntarily.

Each life is determined by us based upon what is optimal at this time for our soul evolution. Such is my understanding ...

***

[happy soul]

My take:

Everything is predetermined. Life is unfolding perfectly, exactly as it's supposed to. Everything that happens is the highest good.

We have freewill, but NOT choice. They're two different things. We must do our own will, which is the universal will of God and all beings. Everyone always choicelessly does this will, because it's their own will.

But to say we don't have freewill is to separate oneself from the universal. We ARE the universal, therefore its will is our own.

Why does the universal want all manner of suffering to exist?

Because it wants to FULLY experience life. It wants to experience ALL possibilities.

Without anger, there couldn't be forgiveness; without sickness, there couldn't be healing; without ignorance, there'd be no such thing as learning. Without ALL manner of experiences, the universal couldn't experience ALL GOOD THINGS. And the universal will is for all good things to be.

Please note that I'm not saying that thing about, 'Without bad, good couldn't exist.' What I'm saying is that specific FORMS of 'bad' make specific forms of good possible. Again, if anger didn't exist, we couldn't forgive others, because we'd have no REASON to.

There's great glory in coming to earth and suffering profoundly, like a soldier defending his or her country, or like Christ going to the cross. We do it in the name of love and for the good of everyone. There are no bad guys.

[Miss Hepburn]

Many of us have experienced events in our own life or in the lives of our dear ones which defy any logic.

Why bad things happen to good people?

Why good things happen to bad people?
A story that may help,:hug3:

A student and his teacher were walking in the village.
The student: Why does the village Bad man find 5 gold coins under that tree?
And then the village Good man gets robbed?

Teacher: Nothing is what it seems.
The Bad man in this life was so good in past lives that he was to find a chest full of gold coins...
but he failed in many things here doing wrong actions, so he only found 5 coins.

The Good man of the village was so bad many past lives he was supposed to get robbed, stabbed and hung upside down to die.
But this life he did many good deeds...so he only got robbed.

Nothing is what it seems.

[inavalan]

Well said.

Sadhguru (Isha foundation India) always says – “You make your own life”

I have come across many celebrated writers, Management thinkers professing that – What you dearly wish comes true. They call it as “Self-fulfilling prophesy”.

Many of us have experienced events in our own life or in the lives of our dear ones which defy any logic.

Why bad things happen to good people?

Why good things happen to bad people?

When all such “Why” questions don’t get any answers, we turn to the concept of God and say – Oh it is God’s will.

How does the concept of Non-duality guides us to understand the continuous unfolding of event in this world – The life as we know
Namaskar

[1] What happens to us, the reality that we create for ourselves, is the result of our thoughts, emotions, and beliefs. "Good" and "bad' are vague and relative terms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_term), that depend on the observer, be it the receiver of the "good" or "bad", be it an external observer.

[Pewdiepie]

I think everything has a predetermined scope (genetics) but the decision to trigger it is not predetermined. For example, lets say both of my parents and grandparents are 6 feet tall. This means that I should be 6 feet tall. But in my youth, lets say I chose to eat a terrible diet and get minimum exposure to sunlight. At age 27, lets say I am fully grown and that I am 5 feet 10. Thus, my potential was determined but the execution of it wasn't.

[Miss Hepburn]

Ha, Do we really know what is really going on here?
I have been told there is a repeating loop...thus, our many deja vus.
Just as we like to watch a movie over and over...the Creator also slips in the tape and watches again and again....
it is our free will and awakening (think of the Star Trek loop episode with Fraser as a Captain) that gets us 'out of the loop'.

So, let's say we always react the same way to a situation...we punch the guy...on the 5007th time we decide
to pull back and shrug our shoulders and walk away....BINGO..we have changed our loop. :hug3:

Our next altered episode has changed, Voila...to getting closer, not to waking up in This Dream...but waking up OUT OF This Dream.
Jesus, and many other Masters woke up and got 'out of the Dream', entirely.


References: 'The Disappearance of the Universe', Gary Renard...and ACIM© , A Course In Miracles.

[FallingLeaves]

well it seems that everything was predestined... even the fact that it won't always be that way.

OTOH if you assume it is predestined and act accordingly, you may not be doing yourself any favors.

best just to find another game to play.

[FallingLeaves]

and dreaming is such fun. Tell me again why I should want to wake up?

[Uday_Advaita]

I think everything has a predetermined scope (genetics) but the decision to trigger it is not predetermined. For example, lets say both of my parents and grandparents are 6 feet tall. This means that I should be 6 feet tall. But in my youth, lets say I chose to eat a terrible diet and get minimum exposure to sunlight. At age 27, lets say I am fully grown and that I am 5 feet 10. Thus, my potential was determined but the execution of it wasn't.


Look at it this way:
Wasn't your choice of eating a terrible diet also predetermined??

[Pewdiepie]

Look at it this way:
Wasn't your choice of eating a terrible diet also predetermined??


Good question. First of all this is a hypothetical, I eat a very healthy diet =D. And the answer to your question, in the context of this hypothetical, is no, because I could have chosen the other way.

On a site note, I'm not denying that God can see into the future. God by definition has to be all knowing. I think this topic is one of those duality questions that can be proven by either side of the argument. In the end, a person can 1. think that everything is predetermined. Then from there, they can determine that they are destined for greatness (in this hypo eating healthy and the benefits it confers, because "hey, my genes expressed through my family are healthy") or that they are destined for failure (eating unhealthy and and the negatives it confers because "hey, my genetics say I should be fat anyways, just look at mom and/or dad") or something in between; with whatever self convincing logic they conjure up. A person can alternatively 2. think the opposite way and say that nothing is predetermined, that they are in control of their life, and that they are the author of their future and know that their actions will determine the outcome. The second perspective has a built in failsafe in my opinion because they won't fall into a self-defeating trap (convincing themselves that their actions will make no difference in the outcome because everything was already determined)

But what if God knows what you will choose (predetermined) but also gives you the free will to decide? In other words, we can have our cake and eat it too. Both perspectives are probably congruent


Things change. Was the change pre-determined? Honestly, who cares if it is change for the better. (Growth)

[Altair]

I think everything has a predetermined scope (genetics) but the decision to trigger it is not predetermined. For example, lets say both of my parents and grandparents are 6 feet tall. This means that I should be 6 feet tall. But in my youth, lets say I chose to eat a terrible diet and get minimum exposure to sunlight. At age 27, lets say I am fully grown and that I am 5 feet 10. Thus, my potential was determined but the execution of it wasn't.
This is a good way of putting it.

If even choice and decision were predetermined we would live in a full blown totalitarian universe. Incidentally, this seems to be a building block of many religion's cosmologies though ^^.
They may believe in free will but in actuality their drive to see an orderly cosmos points towards a direction where such a belief would make no sense..

[Uday_Advaita]

Good question. First of all this is a hypothetical, I eat a very healthy diet =D. And the answer to your question, in the context of this hypothetical, is no, because I could have chosen the other way.

On a site note, I'm not denying that God can see into the future. God by definition has to be all knowing. I think this topic is one of those duality questions that can be proven by either side of the argument. In the end, a person can 1. think that everything is predetermined. Then from there, they can determine that they are destined for greatness (in this hypo eating healthy and the benefits it confers, because "hey, my genes expressed through my family are healthy") or that they are destined for failure (eating unhealthy and and the negatives it confers because "hey, my genetics say I should be fat anyways, just look at mom and/or dad") or something in between; with whatever self convincing logic they conjure up. A person can alternatively 2. think the opposite way and say that nothing is predetermined, that they are in control of their life, and that they are the author of their future and know that their actions will determine the outcome. The second perspective has a built in failsafe in my opinion because they won't fall into a self-defeating trap (convincing themselves that their actions will make no difference in the outcome because everything was already determined)

But what if God knows what you will choose (predetermined) but also gives you the free will to decide? In other words, we can have our cake and eat it too. Both perspectives are probably congruent


Things change. Was the change pre-determined? Honestly, who cares if it is change for the better. (Growth)

Hello
The basic premise of Non-duality teaching (I received) is that – there is no individual doer.

My understanding is:

The choice you made at any point of time was made by/through your MBA(Mind Body Apparatus) – and was an event caused by the entire universe (including you, if that gives you comfort) based on your genes, circumstances and the entire surrounding universe influencing your so called decision making process.

Once the choice was made – the event has happened.

Post that – if you say – I could have chosen the other way – simply does not exist.

Hence in our life as we know – What is at this instant – cannot be or rather could not have been otherwise. Because all the choices hitherto made by us have been accounted for. Therefore, the status at this instant (not only your status but that of the entire universe) could not be different from what it is. Hence predetermined???

Putting it in another way:

If you subscribe to the theory that, we as human species have all the free will to make choices of our liking and make our life the way we want it, is absolutely fine. The understanding will however come from your own experience. How practical the Free will is and a simple investigation will show whether choices made by you were really your choices or not.

Alternatively, as Lord Krishna has advised - You have right to action only and no claim on the fruits of your actions. In other words – Do your best in the situation and do NOT own the success or failure of your action as it can never be under your control.
Namaskar