The Direct Approach.

[Iamit]

The question often arises about how movement from feeling disconnected to connected occurs and is facilitated. This will vary from seeker to seeker but if All is already One, disconnection from Oneness is already impossible. With The Direct Approach that proposition is therefore the basis of the response to the seeker and if communicated clearly from the start at least removes the idea that there is something lacking in terms of connection! One can then consider what stands in the way of ending the feeling of disconnection whilst being clear that that feeling is not disconnected:) That may be enough for some seekers to shift perception and end the feeling of disconnection:) BLAM!

As Nisargadatta said it may be fast or slow, and no doubt depends on where the seeker is at.

[slash112]

Indeed!

Mooji is very direct. His words caused me to KABLAMMY, awaken.
But not all respond the same way to his words. When I was new to it I used to practically shout at the screen when people were asking Mooji "stupid questions" over and over.

I think it also depends on how important the seeker views the new information as. If a seeker disregards the information, then it's almost useless. If a seeker thinks "hmm thats kinda cool" then they will progress slowly. If a seeker thinks "holy **** that is amazing!" then they will probably blossom right there in front of you.

[swampgrl]

At the risk of opening the mouth....

There would be no disconnect if everyone kept their mouth shut.

“I tell you everything that is really nothing, and nothing of what is everything, do not be fooled by what I am saying. Please listen carefully and try to hear what I am not saying.”
-- Charles C. Finn

[swampgrl]

I am as a 'talking' contradiction as I open my mouth once again. :biggrin:

So on the other side of the nonduality/ duality coin is sharing thoughts, personal experience in a journey of all that and more.

There is going to be a disconnect as this medium allows each other to reach people all along the journey. The environment/ view is going to look different at different places in the journey hence different viewpoints.

Imagine two people on the journey, one is at the beginning and another way far ahead. Could you imagine yourself either of the two communicating their journey to the other? It's quite possible that both feel that they are the one of the two of them that is "far ahead' of the other. When quite possible they are both closer together in relativity to the entire length of the journey.

Putting things in their true perspective is a humbling experience. That is where connected-ness really resides.

[Iamit]

I am as a 'talking' contradiction as I open my mouth once again. :biggrin:

So on the other side of the nonduality/ duality coin is sharing thoughts, personal experience in a journey of all that and more.

There is going to be a disconnect as this medium allows each other to reach people all along the journey. The environment/ view is going to look different at different places in the journey hence different viewpoints.

Imagine two people on the journey, one is at the beginning and another way far ahead. Could you imagine yourself either of the two communicating their journey to the other? It's quite possible that both feel that they are the one of the two of them that is "far ahead' of the other. When quite possible they are both closer together in relativity to the entire length of the journey.

Putting things in their true perspective is a humbling experience. That is where connected-ness really resides.

The connection referred to is the connection between the seeker and Source or whatever label the seeker may give to Oneness without distinction or discrimination. Connection between apparently separate looking people may or may not be felt, with or without opening the mouth:) Either way each is the other and the One Love in action, dreaming difference where there is none.

[Iamit]

Indeed!

Mooji is very direct. His words caused me to KABLAMMY, awaken.
But not all respond the same way to his words. When I was new to it I used to practically shout at the screen when people were asking Mooji "stupid questions" over and over.

I think it also depends on how important the seeker views the new information as. If a seeker disregards the information, then it's almost useless. If a seeker thinks "hmm thats kinda cool" then they will progress slowly. If a seeker thinks "holy **** that is amazing!" then they will probably blossom right there in front of you.

KABLAMM sounds much better than mere BLAM. Thanks:)

Yes reaction to the direct approach varies. For those whom it doesn't work at all, hopefully they may be attracted to path and/or practise rather than remain in complete despair. If neither work, things can change with time. What may not work now may work later after life continues to happen and has its effect on our vibration/frequency. Also Nisargadatta said to one seeker who was in complete despair, that it was a most beneficial state for it to happen.

[swampgrl]

The direct approach (or otherwise) is an illusion coming around again.

Approach?

What approach? Nothing approaches nonduality.

[FallingLeaves]

The direct approach (or otherwise) is an illusion coming around again.

Approach?

What approach? Nothing approaches nonduality.

if you could let go of a certain thing, without being tempted to use letting go itself as an 'approach' to another thing, you might find yourself there anyway. The taoists hinted at this.

But who could do it? :rolleyes:

[swampgrl]

If by approach a person mean 'around' then I understand the context of approach but there is nothing direct about proximity when approach and nonduality are linked.

if you could let go of a certain thing, without being tempted to use letting go itself as an 'approach' to another thing, you might find yourself there anyway. The taoists hinted at this.

But who could do it? :rolleyes:

That definitely resonates.

[Iamit]

The direct approach (or otherwise) is an illusion coming around again.

Approach?

What approach? Nothing approaches nonduality.

What is meant by approach is simply the various responses offered to seekers. The response of The Direct Approach has already been described.

[swampgrl]

The Direct Approach has already been described.

Oh, so an 'authority' described it and that that? It doesn't work that way.

Silly Pandora.

[FallingLeaves]

If by approach a person mean 'around' then I understand the context of approach but there is nothing direct about proximity when approach and nonduality are linked.

lol well not to belabor the point but sometimes I think the approach lies through 'absence' of something you already have, rather than 'presence' of something more.

but even if there is something new present that I don't presently know anything about, the next question is, how am I supposed to fill my cup with water when I won't empty it of all this soft drink I am addicted to?

So it seems like I cannot abrogate the role of absence...

[swampgrl]

approach lies through 'absence' of something you already have

Yep

May I illustrate your illustration?

Trying to approach home from home is as an ingrown forest. Eventually a compass will be needed to find the bathroom. Oh, who am I kidding, it's a forest, everywhere is the bathroom!

Gotta go, nature calls.

[FallingLeaves]

well you put me in my place. I wonder how I knew it was coming?

[Iamit]

[QUOTE=swampgrl]Oh, so an 'authority' described it and that that? It doesn't work that way. http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1706389
:hug3:

May all notice that it is not I who initiate contact with this person.

[FallingLeaves]

you do know that feeding into certain people's agendas won't make people take you seriously? If anything, just the opposite. But I don't envy you for what comes next, either. Trying to avoid certain people just to be taken seriously is just as bad as what you are starting with! keep at it though anyway as it all works out for the best in the end.:hug2:

[Gem]

I thought what is called 'the direct approach' is the meditation Ramana called 'self inquiry'.

[swampgrl]

well you put me in my place. I wonder how I knew it was coming?

Don't know where you got that from. There is nothing in my post remotely meant to put anyone or anything in ANY place. That is so far out of my character to do so.

Reading more into a message says more about the reader then the original intent of the writer. Generalities work like mirrors to the observer and to the writer if they look at them again.

There is more tightly wound mortal coils around here then anywhere. Damn ironic. Enjoy.

[swampgrl]

No one can put anyone in anyplace, that's all the minds work.

"That's all on you."

Mirror mirror on the wall.....

[Iamit]

you do know that feeding into certain people's agendas won't make people take you seriously? If anything, just the opposite. But I don't envy you for what comes next, either. Trying to avoid certain people just to be taken seriously is just as bad as what you are starting with! keep at it though anyway as it all works out for the best in the end.:hug2:

Just discussion would be good and with some it is possible without all the personal stuff. Its hard enough to do that face to face with people one knows and trust. This is not such a place.

Once it starts getting personal in places such as this its best to let it go otherwise it can easily descend into abuse which would affect the whole ND forum.

[davidsun]

There is more tightly wound mortal coils around here then anywhere. Damn ironic. Enjoy.
Speaking of 'tightly' vs. 'loosely' vs. not 'wound up' at all (as in a voilin string being around its 'peg(s)' ... it strikes me that IF there was no 'strung out' 'tension' in between 'separate' 'end points', there would be no possibility of there being any muse-ical sound, "Om" included, at all!

Maybe I am misreading your implications swampgrl, but methinks you are image-in-natively extrapolating the idea of non-'duallity' beyond all reasonable possibility, or even if it were possible, beyond all 'desirability', as though it were some kind of ideal (which you apparently 'aspire' to).

[Eelco]

Just discussion would be good and with some it is possible without all the personal stuff. .

Everybody brings their personal stuff to the discussion. Always.
The way I read these threads swampgrl is pointing to exactly THAT.

Only when we think we're beyond the personal is when the words start to itch.

With Love
Eelco

[swampgrl]

Speaking of 'tightly' vs. 'loosely' vs. not 'wound up' at all (as in a voilin string being around its 'peg(s)' ... it strikes me that IF there was no 'strung out' 'tension' in between 'separate' 'end points', there would be no possibility of there being any muse-ical sound, "Om" included, at all!

Maybe I am misreading your implications swampgrl, but methinks you are image-in-natively extrapolating the idea of non-'duallity' beyond all reasonable possibility, or even if it were possible, beyond all 'desirability', as though it were some kind of ideal (which you apparently 'aspire' to).

Throwing darts in the dark has no effect on the bull's eye.

[Iamit]

Everybody brings their personal stuff to the discussion. Always.
The way I read these threads swampgrl is pointing to exactly THAT.

Only when we think we're beyond the personal is when the words start to itch.

With Love
Eelco

What I was referring to by personal is the attempt to dismantle defenses by feed back about a person you know nothing about, cant sit down and talk with in a relationship of trust. This space is far from that. When people get personal here its more to do with invalidating a point of view they disagree with by turning on those expressing it, with the effect of ending the discussion if there ever was one. Best avoided. When it occurs dont get involved unless you want this forum to become a slagging match.

[Iamit]

I thought what is called 'the direct approach' is the meditation Ramana called 'self inquiry'.

What is usually meant by the direct approach is a response to seekers that points to all states being Oneness, including whatever state the seeker is already in, so nothing to be done because whatever is done will not be more or less Oneness than that which already is the case.

The problem can arise however that seekers find elements of the state they are in, and what they see in the world around them, unacceptable, so have difficulty regarding those elements as Oneness manifest. Eventually there is submission, as the inevitability that there is no alternative proposition prevails, and all is gathered in as Oneness manifest and the feeling of disconnection ends, even from those difficult elements.

[Gem]

What is usually meant by the direct approach is a response to seekers that points to all states being Oneness, including whatever state the seeker is already in, so nothing to be done because whatever is done will not be more or less Oneness than that which already is the case.

Sometimes I think people just throw the word 'Oneness' in there, sort of like it's the right answer, but to me it doesn't mean anything.

The problem can arise however that seekers find elements of the state they are in, and what they see in the world around them, unacceptable, so have difficulty regarding those elements as Oneness manifest. Eventually there is submission, as the inevitability that there is no alternative proposition prevails, and all is gathered in as Oneness manifest and the feeling of disconnection ends, even from those difficult elements.

[davidsun]

Everybody brings their personal stuff to the discussion. Always.
Yes, and (IMO) 'personal' views (etc.) is how THAT which IS 'sees' and chooses to 'live'

The way I read these threads swampgrl is pointing to exactly THAT.
Yes, I 'see' that THAT is what she is doing, as well. My 'point' however was that 'pointing' to THAT is not - i.e. it 'finesses' - actually relating to their "personal stuff". Which 'finessing', I happen to 'see' as avoiding genuine engagement (with their "personal stuff", as though the THAT which expresses ITSELF through them were the ONLY thing that is "important".

Only when we think we're beyond the personal is when the words start to itch.
Only? I don't at all 'get' this. I happen to think that the only way to really (as opposed to merely 'solipsistically") relate to THAT which IS is via relating to its 'itchy' (in many cases at least) re-presentatives.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. I just wanted to question the 'logic' of her choices by way of expressing what does and doesn't make 'sense' to me.

[Iamit]

Sometimes I think people just throw the word 'Oneness' in there, sort of like it's the right answer, but to me it doesn't mean anything.

When I use the term it is not meant to indicate some sort of entity but rather that, despite the very convincing appearance of difference, All is One.

[revolver]

The feeling of not being connected is just that, a feeling, we are all connected, in fact there is really no connection, that would be duality, there is only One and not even that.

[sentient]

Oh, who am I kidding, it's a forest, everywhere is the bathroom!
Unfortunately this is the situation and the attitude our Modern World has towards Environment/Nature.

*

[Iamit]

The feeling of not being connected is just that, a feeling, we are all connected, in fact there is really no connection, that would be duality, there is only One and not even that.

For some not feeling connected to source or whatever label is used for that which is without distinction or discrimination, can be very profoundly uncomfortable.

Thee is nothing but duality. There is not somewhere within duality that is non duality. Wiithin duality the idea may be encountered that despite the appearance of difference, All is One. Its just an idea but there can be a resonance with it that ends the feeling of disconnection for some, depending on a vibration/frequency match. It should also be said that feeling disconnected is also Oneness manifest so as not to imply that those who feel disconnected are in anyway lacking in terms of connection.

[Eelco]

Only? I don't at all 'get' this. I happen to think that the only way to really (as opposed to merely 'solipsistically") relate to THAT which IS is via relating to its 'itchy' (in many cases at least) re-presentatives.
.

May all notice that it is not I who initiate contact with this person.

With tough loving contempt
Eelco

[revolver]

For some not feeling connected to source or whatever label is used for that which is without distinction or discrimination, can be very profoundly uncomfortable.

Thee is nothing but duality. There is not somewhere within duality that is non duality. Wiithin duality the idea may be encountered that despite the appearance of difference, All is One. Its just an idea but there can be a resonance with it that ends the feeling of disconnection for some, depending on a vibration/frequency match. It should also be said that feeling disconnected is also Oneness manifest so as not to imply that those who feel disconnected are in anyway lacking in terms of connection.
Yes that may be so, but again no matter how you feel doesn't really mean anything, we are all One and feeling are from the mind body organism which mostly believes itself separate and craves the feeling of being connected.

[Iamit]

Yes that may be so, but again no matter how you feel doesn't really mean anything, we are all One and feeling are from the mind body organism which mostly believes itself separate and craves the feeling of being connected.

Yes that may be so for some as it is for you. My dealings tend to be with those for whom it is distressingly not so and the question arises about how there may be movement from one state to the other.

[revolver]

Yes that may be so for some as it is for you. My dealings tend to be with those for whom it is distressingly not so and the question arises about how there may be movement from one state to the other.
There is no other state, its all in your mind, and the mind only.

[Joe Mc]

Oh, so an 'authority' described it and that that? It doesn't work that way.

Silly Pandora.

Not sure if your involved in this thread anymore but as I read through it, I saw some kind of consensus developing against you ?? Where or why it arose is baffling to read. Was it a gender thing, was it a plane, was it john wayne, hard to figure out. When this happens it reminds me when in my life i've been involved in group learning situations, teacher training etc, the way a consensus can build around several things, a group mentality, a herd mentality perhaps that kind of thing, for that to exist there has to be an outsider i suppose, jesus, the criminal , the man or woman who doesn't quit fit in or even an idea or ideas which could be the case here. I saw 'them ' trying to do this to you here without little effect i might add :biggrin: but it makes me wonder where this consensus comes from especially in something as 'unsayable' as non duality. It's interesting if nothing else to have seen that happening here. Thanks for letting me share :smile: Joe.

[davidsun]

May all notice that it is not I who initiate contact with this person.

With tough loving contempt
Eelco
:icon_eek:

[Eelco]

:icon_eek:

Oh don't act all surprised..
You're a jerk. And the sooner you stop talking to me the sooner I'll stop responding to your infantile mucking about.

With love
Eelco

[swampgrl]

Not sure if your involved in this thread anymore but as I read through it, I saw some kind of consensus developing against you ?? Where or why it arose is baffling to read. Was it a gender thing, was it a plane, was it john wayne, hard to figure out. When this happens it reminds me when in my life i've been involved in group learning situations, teacher training etc, the way a consensus can build around several things, a group mentality, a herd mentality perhaps that kind of thing, for that to exist there has to be an outsider i suppose, jesus, the criminal , the man or woman who doesn't quit fit in or even an idea or ideas which could be the case here. I saw 'them ' trying to do this to you here without little effect i might add :biggrin: but it makes me wonder where this consensus comes from especially in something as 'unsayable' as non duality. It's interesting if nothing else to have seen that happening here. Thanks for letting me share :smile: Joe.

Thank you for that, Joe.

Likened the event to trying to describe a scenery while another is taking selfies in said description. Of course the description is going to be different with the added 'self-ie' but that was not the intent.

In the past I've carelessly done the same thing (apologies BT) though seldom witnessed it so blatantly from another perspective. Chalking it up to a discovery experience.

[davidsun]

Oh don't act all surprised.
I wasn't 'surprised'. 'Eek' means many things.

You're a jerk.[/quote]
I 'get' that that's how you see me.

And the sooner you stop talking to me the sooner I'll stop responding to your infantile mucking about.
Believe it or not, I wasn't specifically talking to you. I was sharing my perspective with anyone/everyone interested in considering it - it related to things I had previously said, I thought - in response to the comments (perspectives) you shared in this publicly accessible forum.

[sentient]

Going on here with my own agenda – why we absolutely need nondual awakenings and/or ‘Oneness Awareness-raising’ so desperately in modern times:

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/video/2017/jul/11/the-indigenous-community-making-art-from-garbage-video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qT-rOXB6NI

*

[Iamit]

There is no other state, its all in your mind, and the mind only.

When you write "There is no other state" who or what is writing?

:)

[revolver]

When you write "There is no other state" who or what is writing?

:)
The mind, but the mind is used as a tool, when you have experienced beyond the mind then the mind is your tool of communication.

[Iamit]

The mind, but the mind is used as a tool, when you have experienced beyond the mind then the mind is your tool of communication.

Yes a tool to express ideas like "There is no other state" and ideas like there are various states including feeling disconnected or feeling connected.

:)

[swampgrl]

The mind, but the mind is used as a tool, when you have experienced beyond the mind then the mind is your tool of communication.

I understand what your conveying and had a similar understanding but there is a couple nagging questions I get when meditating in the past of a very similar nature.

1) "experienced beyond mind" is that a direct reference to nonduality? How can you be sure that which is experiencing beyond isn't a part of the mind pretending to be that?

2) "the mind is your tool of communication" Who is 'your' that uses the mind?

I am trying to resolve this for myself because there a distinction in my mind between hyper-conscious and what which is referred to as nonduality.

If it's the hyper-conscious your referring to then I understand your post completely.

Hyper-conscious is the closest resemblance to nonduality as I understand it.

Nonduality to me is that one thing overlooked and not tied to everything (everything is tied to everything). Not being tied to everything makes using a mind as a tool irrelevant.

[swampgrl]

Deleted...

[Eelco]

I wasn't 'surprised'. 'Eek' means many things.

You're a jerk.
I 'get' that that's how you see me.


Believe it or not, I wasn't specifically talking to you. I was sharing my perspective with anyone/everyone interested in considering it - it related to things I had previously said, I thought - in response to the comments (perspectives) you shared in this publicly accessible forum.


You are right I don't believe you.
I looked at post 27 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1707407&postcount=27) again.

The one you didn't mean me in?
I notice I am quoted by you 3 times. To which you respond with cleverly hidden pain points we discussed in our fight and let's exchange cleverly and blunt stabs at each other thread. Which you now claim to want to go back to topic to..

Nah. I see soliciting when I see it. Also I see the signs of some personality disorder who cannot stand not being believed, revered or seen as he sees himself.

I'll say now as I said before.
If you want a mirroring contest. I'm Game.
I'll mirror your delusion and manipulations with crude and honest insults word for word.
We may create our own thread though for that.

I'll await the creation of it as a sign you wish to continue this exchange.
If you don't I'll take it as a sign that I am wrong about your narcissistic tendencies

And we can just peacefully co-exist on this forum.
I'll try not to quote and talk with you.
And you don't quote and paint false pictures of me.

How does that sound?
With Love
Eelco

[sentient]

Since I started this ‘Nature Evangelism’ (as I feel very passionate about Nature) – here is something I wrote years ago about a special place. Not exactly a ‘nondual awakening’ experience, but an expression of Nature Time as a 'direct pointer'.

Prior to moving to Central Australia I lived in Far Nth. Queensland tropics in a truly beautiful place with untouched nature still abound, but it was a small community - so in many ways living there was like living in suburbia as well. As such, I sometimes found it difficult to detach myself from the ‘human-mind-chatter-overlay-world’ and its ‘time-rhythm’, since it always was (and generally is), ‘the foremost consensus reality’ to consider in daily life.
So in order to experience/remember ‘nature time’, I sometimes made trips deeper into the rainforests or went further inland into savanna - country.

There is this place called Chillagoe, inland, not too far where I used to live. Dry, vast savanna-type landscape, dotted with ancient rock formations.

When I went there, it was like entering through a doorway into timelessness.
And within that vast-timeless-space-silence, every nature-sound, every movement (time) became only like an ‘echo of eternity’ or only like an accentuation of that timelessness, acquiring an almost illusory, somewhat hollow holographic quality, and yet - thus making the ‘holograph’ also Sacred.
Maybe one could call it: ‘Eternal-Primordial-All-Pervasive-All-Accommodating-Unconditional-Space-Awareness’, for it feels like the ‘Sourceless-Source’ for ‘All-That-Is’ - therefore making everything equal and interconnected.

In a way having gone through that ‘doorway’ was like having been swallowed up by ‘Womb of Creation’ itself, which can be likened to a meditative state where in the silence and stillness of your inner space you watch your thought-, and emotional forms arise from nothingness or emptiness only to see them dissolve into emptiness again - realizing that these thought and emotional forms do not have such solidity after all, solidity which one formerly took for granted.

Rainbow Serpent is said to hold all the creation in her belly, and when Thunder sounds, that is Rainbow Serpent's voice. This is not unlike Eurasian experience of hearing the sound of The Thunderbird heralding a moment, when time and timelessness, Essence and Creation meet at The World Tree – World Pole (like in nondual awakening experience).

Australian Aboriginal people are said to describe their psyche, their awareness with the word "Dreamtime" (not exactly their word for it) but in which the past, the presence and the future and all phenomenal existence are but a ‘display’ or ‘unfoldment’ of the said "Eternal Dreamtime" and this upside-down, or mirror view of the world being their ‘foremost consensus reality’.
To perceive in this primordial way gave them an understanding of the underlying law governing all our existence and how to live in this Sacred World accordingly.
(Now of course times have changed, but I do have a huge respect for this Country, and for its Dreaming and for those Elders who still remember it).

Since I am not an Australian native, I can only say, that my experience about Chillagoe is my own experienced version of trying to get closer to understanding "Eternal Dreamtime".
But maybe there are many Chillagoes in the world; - places, which like portals, at a given time grant us an entry into experiencing our multidimensionality for a moment that spells out Eternity.

[revolver]

Yes a tool to express ideas like "There is no other state" and ideas like there are various states including feeling disconnected or feeling connected.

:)
But still its either right or wrong.

[revolver]

I understand what your conveying and had a similar understanding but there is a couple nagging questions I get when meditating in the past of a very similar nature.

1) "experienced beyond mind" is that a direct reference to nonduality? How can you be sure that which is experiencing beyond isn't a part of the mind pretending to be that?

2) "the mind is your tool of communication" Who is 'your' that uses the mind?

I am trying to resolve this for myself because there a distinction in my mind between hyper-conscious and what which is referred to as nonduality.

If it's the hyper-conscious your referring to then I understand your post completely.

Hyper-conscious is the closest resemblance to nonduality as I understand it.

Nonduality to me is that one thing overlooked and not tied to everything (everything is tied to everything). Not being tied to everything makes using a mind as a tool irrelevant.
When I say experienced beyond the mind i mean an experience of enlightenment, the experience itself is only secondary to that which is beyond the mind. To convey this experience to others is near impossible, we have to us language which was constructed through the mind and therefore what we convey becomes a conversation in duality.

All is one in Consciousness which is beyond the conscious mind, no matter if we realize this or not, to argue against this one would have to experience beyond the mind to have concert evidence that this isn't so.

Hyper Consciousness or the Source of all is only a pointer, it isn't that which is, again language fails us. To cling to the words no matter how beautiful is to miss the mark, us the words as a tool and then throw them away.:smile:

[swampgrl]

I actually deleted that post because after rereading it needed adjustments but did not have the time so I deleted it. I find it peculiar someone with admin powers would do that without informing me.

[Eelco]

I actually deleted that post because after rereading it needed adjustments but did not have the time so I deleted it. I find it peculiar someone with admin powers would do that without informing me.

I don't think that happened. It's up there just above your deleted post.
Most logical train of events is that you accidentally double posted the thing and deleted only the bottom one.

With Love
Eelco (feeling like a regular Spock right now. Live long and prosper)

[Joe Mc]

Since I started this ‘Nature Evangelism’ (as I feel very passionate about Nature) – here is something I wrote years ago about a special place. Not exactly a ‘nondual awakening’ experience, but an expression of Nature Time as a 'direct pointer'.

Prior to moving to Central Australia I lived in Far Nth. Queensland tropics in a truly beautiful place with untouched nature still abound, but it was a small community - so in many ways living there was like living in suburbia as well. As such, I sometimes found it difficult to detach myself from the ‘human-mind-chatter-overlay-world’ and its ‘time-rhythm’, since it always was (and generally is), ‘the foremost consensus reality’ to consider in daily life.
So in order to experience/remember ‘nature time’, I sometimes made trips deeper into the rainforests or went further inland into savanna - country.

There is this place called Chillagoe, inland, not too far where I used to live. Dry, vast savanna-type landscape, dotted with ancient rock formations.

When I went there, it was like entering through a doorway into timelessness.
And within that vast-timeless-space-silence, every nature-sound, every movement (time) became only like an ‘echo of eternity’ or only like an accentuation of that timelessness, acquiring an almost illusory, somewhat hollow holographic quality, and yet - thus making the ‘holograph’ also Sacred.
Maybe one could call it: ‘Eternal-Primordial-All-Pervasive-All-Accommodating-Unconditional-Space-Awareness’, for it feels like the ‘Sourceless-Source’ for ‘All-That-Is’ - therefore making everything equal and interconnected.

In a way having gone through that ‘doorway’ was like having been swallowed up by ‘Womb of Creation’ itself, which can be likened to a meditative state where in the silence and stillness of your inner space you watch your thought-, and emotional forms arise from nothingness or emptiness only to see them dissolve into emptiness again - realizing that these thought and emotional forms do not have such solidity after all, solidity which one formerly took for granted.

Rainbow Serpent is said to hold all the creation in her belly, and when Thunder sounds, that is Rainbow Serpent's voice. This is not unlike Eurasian experience of hearing the sound of The Thunderbird heralding a moment, when time and timelessness, Essence and Creation meet at The World Tree – World Pole (like in nondual awakening experience).

Australian Aboriginal people are said to describe their psyche, their awareness with the word "Dreamtime" (not exactly their word for it) but in which the past, the presence and the future and all phenomenal existence are but a ‘display’ or ‘unfoldment’ of the said "Eternal Dreamtime" and this upside-down, or mirror view of the world being their ‘foremost consensus reality’.
To perceive in this primordial way gave them an understanding of the underlying law governing all our existence and how to live in this Sacred World accordingly.
(Now of course times have changed, but I do have a huge respect for this Country, and for its Dreaming and for those Elders who still remember it).

Since I am not an Australian native, I can only say, that my experience about Chillagoe is my own experienced version of trying to get closer to understanding "Eternal Dreamtime".
But maybe there are many Chillagoes in the world; - places, which like portals, at a given time grant us an entry into experiencing our multidimensionality for a moment that spells out Eternity.

Excellent dear friend, excellent ! Thanks for taking the time to share this. I totally relate to what you said as I've experienced similiar stuff here in Ireland. There was a moment a couple of Summers ago when I stood at a Lake called Innisfree made famous by WB Yeats poem, The Lake Isle of Innisfree, whilst standing there there was an eternal peace that was radiating everywhere, radiating from the surface of the Lake which showed not a ripple on this calm Summers day. It came over me bit by bit, as you say, like walking through a door or entering a portal into another world.

Once I was overcome with pure awareness and pure joy walking down a street in London, literally transported into another dimension :D but standing in nature by the lake isle of Innisfree felt a bit more deliberate but steady and
sure.This place is also a mountainous region and so you get to gaze and stand and look upon purple and blue small sized mountains that just speak to you with deep eternal presence. I drove through a mountainous region yesterday with snow capped mountains in the distant, beautifully comforting but i havent immersed myself since that time in Nature. Makes me want to plan a few days in the Spring/Summer. I got a present of a book recently written by an Irish/Shaman/Mystic visonary and the name of the Book is called The Dreamtime, obviously a nod to the Australian Aboriginals. So thanks for the opportunity to allow me to share and i can safely vouchsafe to say that these Portals of Source/Space are existing here in Ireland. :smile: Joe

[sentient]

i can safely vouchsafe to say that these Portals of Source/Space are existing here in Ireland.
Oh, thank G…* for that! Such a relief to hear!
The Ancestors used those Portals or Sacred Sites to let go, align and shift – in order to remember/rediscover the Sacred.
Yet one needs the ‘eyes’ to see and the ‘ears’ to hear them, but since you practice music and since a good jam session and/or a good musician can also take you through a ‘doorway’ and shift you, you would become sensitive to notice these shifts happening Joe.
(I am not a musician btw or the musician in the zoom thread, who though did use his art to shift, therefore shifting audiences as well – and one day “Spirit Design” happened – Zoom :smile: )

Once I was overcome with pure awareness and pure joy walking down a street in London, literally transported into another dimension but standing in nature by the lake isle of Innisfree felt a bit more deliberate but steady and sure.
Perhaps I know what you mean - the shifts in Nature spots are so harmonious, easy and ‘solid’ so they can take you far without freaking you out.

The Lake Isle of Innisfree, whilst standing there there was an eternal peace that was radiating everywhere, radiating from the surface of the Lake which showed not a ripple on this calm Summers day.

The rock formations I spoke in my post also radiate energy, but those I would describe as ‘singing’.
A bit like a siren’s call (but in a good way) and then becoming more and more enchanted:
It came over me bit by bit
Though in my subsequent visits, just coming to a particular rocky site & the shift hit me all-at-once, like having all one's chakras blown open on the spot, especially the heart and realizing how blocked up I had become in the meantime ‘out in the world’.

Book is called The Dreamtime, obviously a nod to the Australian Aboriginals.
Well, when talking about ‘group-think’ – many of the coastal peoples I know are now doing these vanishing Totemic Ancestor images out of the rubbish killing everything in the sea.
The depth of this grief I have not even dared to feel properly – but what you suppress/bottle up comes up like Whoooosh! OUCH – a dagger right through the heart, since Nature/Forest still IS my ‘Church’.
These are the open wounds that just won’t heal. Sort of what Dylan had said: “I've still got the scars that the sun didn't let me heal”.
And I am a bit afraid of the level of ‘wastedness’ (I know from experience :biggrin: ) I can go with them.

Thank you Joe for the opportunity allowing me to share.

*

[Joe Mc]

Zoom !!!! lololol hahahaha !! Yep I know what you mean that the eyes and ears have to be there, the attunement and alignment of the body/spiritual body ? Like it's years ago now since I first encountered the idea of Om lets say, A sacred sound or some might say The sacred sound ..does it matter ? By saying what i just said helps me to acknowledge that I am always capable of becoming side tracked and cul de saced too into Reason lets say and argumentation for it's own sakes, I was never good at that lol. some peeps here on the Forum are experts at that type of thing, that's their forte, their talent, I'm not so good at it myself but that's ok, i got the music bro. lol. Your so right when you say we can be taken through by musicians and voices of poets etc...ive experienced this but now as i grow a smidgeon wiser i'm thinking even more deeply about the healing that can go on through sound.

I was busking on the street for the first time and Before i Started I said even if one person walking by hears a healing sound of some sort in the song or guitar then it will be enough ..and it turned out to be a great occasion. And some money started to flow which was a really nice bonus.

I love when you say that the mountain was singing, woww excellent, i love it. Yes. To begin with for me this place at Innisfree had this palpable presence of peace which washed over me and allowed someone so out of tune perhaps from people etc. and cities to feel it in a very palpable and tangent way. You couldn't avoid it, but it was also beckoning too so the further i walked into the field the more that was there. So yep it's probably something that like internal meditation can be scary i suppose if we are not use to it.

You know I visited a buddhist monastery of this Buddhist Abbot Ajahn Sumedho who has actually mentioned the Sound of Silence a few times in his teachings. I think he has a book by that same title too.

Yes I dare not look too deeply into mad world and goings on in the plastic age. I feel your pain alright, it's very hideous the amount of pain and betrayal that consumptive society is capable of producing. Not sure where the solutions to it all lie ? Is it in technology, will it come with equality of all human kind, not just tokenism. Will it come with the destruction or metamorphoses of Capitalism into something more enligthening ? But yep that bob Dylan line thanks for reminding me is a line that may never leave me its a haunting but liberating line in its depth and accuracy to describe our ability to perish in a wasteful way. To waste away in self delusion. Worth a pause now and then to see how far you've come ..take a look down below into the valley occasionally. :) Ps. i cant really work the quote thing that good lololol. apologies. :)

Not Dark Yet , Bob Dylan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JBHyE18L3o

Last Great American Whale, Lou Reed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbBB8QEbUtg

[sentient]

Thanks again Joe and P.S:
I got a present of a book recently written by an Irish/Shaman/Mystic visonary and the name of the Book is called The Dreamtime
If you do mean this book – it does sound really interesting!
https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Dreamtime.html?id=30lEPgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

*

[sentient]

Yep I know what you mean that the eyes and ears have to be there, the attunement and alignment of the body/spiritual body ?
Yes, I think so.
I don’t exactly know the mechanics of an ‘awareness shift’ either, but my guess is - that it is an alignment "with" the ‘Energy Body’:
https://drakebearstephen.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/em71.jpg

Somebody here might have better ideas or better wording?

Perhaps a shift into a nondual ‘silent communication’ with somebody could be likened to a communication situation with ‘ghosts’.
In the latter - the physical body – the eyes and ears are not there anymore – but the energetic presence is and the energy body sees and hears directly within - energetically.

Therefore I think that the Sacred Sites or Portals in Nature have a profound effect on one's energy body as they awaken you to your energetic layers.

The deeper or ‘higher’ the shift – the more the physical body and the physical phenomena starts to feel like an empty holographic presentation of this Energy.

*

[Joe Mc]

Thanks again Joe and P.S:

If you do mean this book – it does sound really interesting!
https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Dreamtime.html?id=30lEPgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

*

Yep that's the one Sentient. John Moriarty, Dreamtime. I've dipped into it, so ill dip in a little bit more and let you know if i find any great revelations in there.

[Joe Mc]

Yes, I think so.
I don’t exactly know the mechanics of an ‘awareness shift’ either, but my guess is - that it is an alignment "with" the ‘Energy Body’:
https://drakebearstephen.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/em71.jpg

Somebody here might have better ideas or better wording?

Perhaps a shift into a nondual ‘silent communication’ with somebody could be likened to a communication situation with ‘ghosts’.
In the latter - the physical body – the eyes and ears are not there anymore – but the energetic presence is and the energy body sees and hears directly within - energetically.

Therefore I think that the Sacred Sites or Portals in Nature have a profound effect on one's energy body as they awaken you to your energetic layers.

The deeper or ‘higher’ the shift – the more the physical body and the physical phenomena starts to feel like an empty holographic presentation of this Energy.

*
Yep interesting. I've come across this representation of our energy system
before. Yes how our energy is affected by placing ourselves in various sites and landscapes. You present it very well here and hopefully somebody will chip in too. Slan.

[sentient]

P.S.

I got curious about your book Joe and wondered what he would mean by ‘European Dreamtime’.

Moriarty:
I wondered does Ireland have a dreamtime, does Europe have a dreamtime and when I thought about it I said yes we have a dreamtime of stories of great old myths, legends, great sayings like, and I wanted to find out what they were, do you know, so I put them together in a book called Dreamtime.

Ok.
I have got a book by Marija Gimbutas: "The Language of the Goddess", which also deals with Palaeolithic and Upper Palaeolithic myths of Europe.

As to Moriarty’s ‘agenda’ - found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeCTdXLSE4Q

His talk reminded me of a cultural walk (designed for Westerners) ‘we’ as a group did with an Aboriginal Elder.
Upon entering the forest he said something like this (from memory):
When a Western man comes into the forest all he can see is commodity. This tree is good for timber – that one isn’t and should be gotten rid of.
But we don’t see things in this way.
Look - there is the stinging tree and right next to it the milky pine – which helps to soothe the pain of the stings.
Nothing is considered as bad and out of place - everything in the forest has its own place of purpose.

And on we went – simply being within the totality of the forest being …. the Elder directly pointing to the perfect natural order that exists in Nature already without us needing to impose another kind of order upon it.

I have heard of some of these non-dual teachers (Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle) and read a little, but have only tuned into what these Aboriginal Elders say and then ‘shifted’ along into non-duality with their pointing …

*

[davidsun]

This mystic fest sure rings my personal bell! :biggrin:

Adding some second-hand muse-ic:

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

"And [he] a took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and ... said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood ... "

"There was a man [a couple of 'em actually] ... whose name was John [whose names were Joe and Sentient]. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Thanks you two for re-presenting the One! :biggrin:

[davidsun]

Well, when talking about ‘group-think’ – many of the coastal peoples I know are now doing these vanishing Totemic Ancestor images out of the rubbish killing everything in the sea.
The depth of this grief I have not even dared to feel properly – but what you suppress/bottle up comes up like Whoooosh! OUCH – a dagger right through the heart, since Nature/Forest still IS my ‘Church’.
These are the open wounds that just won’t heal.
Well, maybe not everything - one can hope so at least. :smile:

'Awakened' mystics and bard are 'serving' as 'awakeners' - and idea (meme?) engineers like myself are busy 'designing' what it will practically take to 'live through' the 'demise' of the 'old' and create the next, 'improved version' of 'civilization'.

Here's the hopefully 'hooking' preamble to Ch.3 in the book I wrote with such 'task' and 'aim' in mind:

"What ground for hope is there? Our situation seems to be going from bad to worse. At times, you may well wonder if there’s possibility of significant betterment.

Almost everywhere, levels of insidious kinds of pollution are increasing. Resource systems which took ages to develop are being damaged and depleted. Yet, growing numbers persist in being destructively exploitative and continue to foul their environs further, even as despoliation threatens to overwhelm us and catastrophes loom imminent.

At the same time, with more and more sophisticated weapons being built and more and more having access to their use, violence is running amuck—trumpeted as necessity if not gloried in, and frequently brutally resorted to. In many quarters there is fighting and killing; some seeking to obtain what they think they’ve been denied, others wishing to hold on to what they think of as theirs, or just avenge what they feel they’ve suffered or lost. Instead of being an expression of voluntary choice and cooperation, when and where existent, peace and social order are, for the most part, maintained by threat of sanctions and the coercive use of force.

Even where it is functionally implemented, the institution of democracy is proving a questionable improvement. Because of widespread limitations in comprehension and absence of foresight, “Two heads are better than one” is all too often not an operative principle. Instead of being benevolent advocates and custodians of Life-as-a-Whole, ‘leaders’ and ‘speakers’ are generally just fronts and mouthpieces for the selfish cravings of conglomerate masses.

For the most part, dinosaurean interest groups dominate the field, while the recesses of our commonwealth are preyed upon by packs of hungry dogs. The human arena is becoming more and more of a rat-race, with individuals and groups madly consuming and competing. All over the planet, Creativity is being ravished and trampled by anxiety-ridden, greed-driven hordes.

What good can we do in face of such onslaught?"

P.S. This writing is not aimed at mystics and bards who are already serving as 'portals' for the Cosmic Life-Energy Life to flow into 'the mix'. It is (hopefully) presented to inspire and motivate 'worker' types - there's no (real) 'reason' for anyone to 'languish' - no end to the number of 'jobs' that could love-and-joy-meaning-fully be 'done'!

Please also know that I too have experienced the deep 'wounding' and am in 'full' 'recovery' mode as well. And from that perspective can attest that Life IS glorious (pain and loss included!). :toothy4:
The greater the at-first-seeming curse, the greater the ultimately realized blessing!

Woohoo! :D

[sentient]

Just an interlude – as I try to gather my thoughts – a painting made in a Alice Springs prison - I had saved in my files and so I had named the painting “Correctional Centre” (but perhaps the artist was just depicting “My Country” and had also named it as such):

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/28/artist_wideweb__430x282.jpg



Australia - *One Country - Two Laws*.

*

[Joe Mc]

P.S.

I got curious about your book Joe and wondered what he would mean by ‘European Dreamtime’.

Moriarty:


Ok.
I have got a book by Marija Gimbutas: "The Language of the Goddess", which also deals with Palaeolithic and Upper Palaeolithic myths of Europe.

As to Moriarty’s ‘agenda’ - found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeCTdXLSE4Q

His talk reminded me of a cultural walk (designed for Westerners) ‘we’ as a group did with an Aboriginal Elder.
Upon entering the forest he said something like this (from memory):

And on we went – simply being within the totality of the forest being …. the Elder directly pointing to the perfect natural order that exists in Nature already without us needing to impose another kind of order upon it.

I have heard of some of these non-dual teachers (Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle) and read a little, but have only tuned into what these Aboriginal Elders say and then ‘shifted’ along into non-duality with their pointing …

*

Thanks for the link, I have heard it before but I listened again. So many points to consider in what he has got to say. The ideas such as the 'Domination over all things idea', the idea of European Civilisation losing it's way etc. It is rich with ideas and I will listen to some of it again and try to read a couple of chapters from his book. Thanks for the reflections and the dreaming. Joe. :)
Also that could be an interesting distinction between people who called themselves non duality teachers, that label has been placed upon them though ? hmmm interesting and other paths like that great aboriginal teacher you speak about.

[Joe Mc]

Just an interlude – as I try to gather my thoughts – a painting made in a Alice Springs prison - I had saved in my files and so I had named the painting “Correctional Centre” (but perhaps the artist was just depicting “My Country” and had also named it as such):

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/28/artist_wideweb__430x282.jpg



Australia - *One Country - Two Laws*.

*


That's a great photograph sentient, with three subjects, lots of depth and an allusion to the Dreamtime coming through the representational of the trinitarian layout, nice, also a very striking quote. Australia one country, two laws. :) thanks for sharing. Those blue mountains at guys back are rather stunning too. all the best.

[sentient]

That's a great photograph sentient, with three subjects, lots of depth and an allusion to the Dreamtime coming through the representational of the trinitarian layout, nice, also a very striking quote. Australia one country, two laws. :) thanks for sharing. Those blue mountains at guys back are rather stunning too. all the best.
Yeah, well, I equate “Correctional Centres” with those Sacred Places in Nature that can ‘align’ us and take us back to our origins beyond space and time.

Thanks for the link, I have heard it before but I listened again. So many points to consider in what he has got to say. The ideas such as the 'Domination over all things idea', the idea of European Civilisation losing it's way etc.

Thank You for bringing this up.

I am so curious, where Moriarty would place the ‘European Dreamtime’?

One has to really be interested in this subject matter to listen Marija Gimbuta’s lecture here dealing with the similar issue, (as reference):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjE2-H1R9Zs

Lithuanians – genetically - are the most Aboriginal Europeans – Saami and Finnics, I think coming close second (as we have additional Eurasian, Siberian mix and influences), but because Lithuanians I think became an agricultural society early - Gimbuta’s ‘Dreamtime’ seems to be in the Neolithic period, which is a mixture of Palaeolithic & Neolithic symbolism and she then blames the Indo-Europeans :D

I find Gimbuta’s explanations of the symbolic meanings very interesting, but can only really relate to bits of it, because ‘we’ up in the North were the last hunter-fisher-gatherers and as long as that lifestyle survived, so did the Palaeolithic myths.
The Stone Gods of Sacred places, Totemic Animal fore-fathers, the birth from the Cosmic Egg (usually the duck), the shamanic Three Wolds, The World Pillar, the Masters of the Forest and the Sea, Guardians of Species etc. etc. etc.
The Eurasian Thunderbird, Turanian Tree-Snake worship, Eurasian Earth Diver myths etc. all speak of the Animist-Totemist–Shamanic egalitarian Worldview.
So for us it is more about the “Mythic Images and Shamanism” – “The Sámi shaman – mediator between man and universe” - type of books that talk about ‘our’ Dreamtime.
So I blame the agriculturalists, Indo-Europeans and Christians for us having almost lost our ‘Dreamtime’ connection with Nature (blame them all! :D )

Well - not really - as long as we can go back and back and back to our original connection.
http://www.godeeper.info/uploads/8/2/4/1/8241512/3824132_orig.jpg?0

*

[davidsun]

- as long as we can go back and back and back to our original connection.
Consciously experiencing/reestablishing the 'connection' is possible.

Life is (like a) river, though. Going 'back' is not an option.

[davidsun]

Life is (like a) river, though. Going 'back' is not an option.
Correction (LOL!):

SOUL-FULL Life cannot go 'back'. My understanding is that a (nodal) SOUL can 'lose' its coherency (as a SOUL), IOW, it can disintegrate, such that its 'ingredients' get recycled. In terms of the above analogy, one's SOUL may be dispersed as 'rain', i.e. 'go back to go' :D and start developing (coherency in relation to the Whole) all over again!

That's the perspective supported by by Michael Newton, Ph.D.'s research-based thesis (as presented in his book, Destiny of Souls) at least.

[Miss Hepburn]

Iamit, I promise 1 day you will get tired of me thanking you for your threads
over and over and over.
And a big welcome to Slash112.

I'm sure I brought this up before...this group would love the book,
"The Most Direct Means to Eternal Bliss''...more or less some clarity
on Ramana Maharshi and Nigsargadatta's ...becoming aware of Awareness.
:thumbsup:

And revolver, Hi...and yup well said...only One, just a 'feeling' of disconnect! :smile:

[Iamit]

Iamit, I promise 1 day you will get tired of me thanking you for your threads
over and over and over.
And a big welcome to Slash112.

I'm sure I brought this up before...this group would love the book,
"The Most Direct Means to Eternal Bliss''...more or less some clarity
on Ramana Maharshi and Nigsargadatta's ...becoming aware of Awareness.
:thumbsup:

And revolver, Hi...and yup well said...only One, just a 'feeling' of disconnect! :smile:

Thank you Divne Miss. I'm sure your mind has been blown by the the most exquisite frequency matches:) I cannot utter a single word unless you speak:)

[Miss Hepburn]

Frequency matches!
Isn't that the truth...when my mind and focus is
directed to the Highest ...what a connection, what an experience!:hug3:
(I know, it's not 'my' mind...)
;)

[sentient]

Frequency matches!
Isn't that the truth...when my mind and focus is
directed to the Highest ...what a connection, what an experience!:hug3:
(I know, it's not 'my' mind...)
;)
Yes, exactly – but would you care to expand on your interpretation of it?
We live in a vibrational universe and everything is energy vibrating at different frequencies around us and within us.
Science, through quantum physics, is showing us that at the sub-atomic level everything is pure energy. All energy is continually moving and it emits frequency. It is that frequency which creates form.

When you come near a Sacred Place in Nature, the first thing you notice is the vibrational change in the atmosphere, and as you - like a tuning fork ‘align’ with that frequency – it can ‘transport’ you back into the ‘Dreamtime’.
I thought Moriarty had expressed this so beautifully:
http://www.godeeper.info/uploads/8/2/4/1/8241512/3824132_orig.jpg?0

I think all Shamanic stories tell that ‘In the Beginning – when everything spoke the same language, communication was like magic …… Humans could shapeshift into animals & animals into humans – because the boundary just wasn’t there.’
(Ref. Gimbuta’s pottery examples that still shows the early Paleolithic layer, which was prior to the population replacement by agriculturalists from Near East into Europe during the Neolithic and prior to Indo-European invasions, that came even later).

But even before that, 'we' (in Europe) have the Creation myths – The birth from the Cosmic Egg.
(Ref. Gimbuta’s pottery that shows how this Creation myth symbolism was continued into the Neolithic era, when Aboriginal European hunter-gatherers and Near Eastern agriculturalists mixed - changing the lifestyle).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_egg

And if we talk about that energetically – it starts to look like the Auric Egg.

Shamanic mythology is about energy frequencies.
The non-dual World Pole (World Mountain, Axis Mundi) that can transport us into the Upper and Lower Worlds.
These three Worlds: Upper-Lower-Middle (experimentally) are differences in Energy Frequencies.


And no - the "Mind Trip" isn't "The Way" (from a white Australian 'direct pointer' Leunig):
http://www.leunig.com.au/images/recent-cartoons/the-way.jpg


*

[Iamit]

Poor ol mind gets such a bad press.

What is the "we" or "I" or "me" referred to if it is not the mind referring to itself without which there would be no reflection or communiction about thoughts and feelings.

What is it if it is not That which is beyond discription which manifests as mind to imagine and conjure this astonishing manifestation!

[davidsun]

I think all Shamanic stories tell that ‘In the Beginning – when everything spoke the same language, communication was like magic …… Humans could shapeshift into animals & animals into humans – because the boundary just wasn’t there.’
'Sense' of 'self' and so locus and form of 'consciousness' was much more fluid then.

Riddle me this: just suppose you could 'easily' shapeshift into another form, say an animal but it could be anything or anyone else, what would you do with such ability and why would you want to do it that way - I mean what would be 'better' about being able to 'live' (i.e. experience and express yourself) that way?

Stories about shamanisn, magic, Merlin, Jesus performing miracles, Superhero comics, etc., etc., etc. often strikes me as just being cases of peeps 'romanticizing' the 'good old days' ('cuz their 'present' days strike them as being 'drab', 'ordinary', 'lacking something', maybe). What am I missing?

[revolver]

'Sense' of 'self' and so locus and form of 'consciousness' was much more flujid then.

Riddle me this: just suppose you could 'easily' shapeshift into another form, say an animal but it could be anything or anyone else, what would you do with such ability and why would you want to do it that way - I mean what would be 'better' about being able to 'live' (i.e. experience and express yourself) that way?

Stories about shamanisn, magic, Merlin, Jesus performing miracles, Superhero comics, etc., etc., etc. often strikes me as just being cases of peeps 'romanticizing' the 'good old days' ('cuz their 'present' days strike them as being 'drab', 'ordinary', 'lacking something', maybe). What am I missing?
I agree with you.:smile:

[sentient]

Poor ol mind gets such a bad press.

What is the "we" or "I" or "me" referred to if it is not the mind referring to itself without which there would be no reflection or communiction about thoughts and feelings.

What is it if it is not That which is beyond discription which manifests as mind to imagine and conjure this astonishing manifestation!
I don’t know what the correct definition for the ‘mind’ is, but I always seem to come back to that word reflection and the Buddhist image of ‘one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water’.

And as we still the waters of our 'waterbowlness’ in order to be able to reflect ‘THAT’ – if it is not a sudden awakening, then I find that – like peeling onions, layers and layers of my subconscious patterning does come up for reflective review – to either relearn or unlearn, since these subconscious patterns either help or hinder the further surrendering to ‘THAT’ - process.

So I don’t think this statement by C.Perkins is true only for the Indigenous, but also for the Westerners (in the New Worlds):
We know we cannot live in the past, but the past lives in us.

Reconciling with both - Earthsong articles link, if anyone is interested:
http://earthsong.org.au/publications/journal/issue-1/issue-1-feature-article/
And yet, for all our self-created political, economic, and racial barriers, there is a level, often intuitively felt but rarely discussed, at which we are all united in the spirit.


Even though this “One Spirit” - Nondual level is experienced, one still needs to deal with one’s own subconscious and (culturally) collective subconscious patterning layers, be they Shamanic (i.e. animist - subconsciously taking it for granted that all things in Nature has Spirit and/or Soul) or Christian, (subconsciously taking it for granted that only humans can have a Soul and be of Spirit.)

*

[Joe Mc]

Yeah, well, I equate “Correctional Centres” with those Sacred Places in Nature that can ‘align’ us and take us back to our origins beyond space and time.



Thank You for bringing this up.

I am so curious, where Moriarty would place the ‘European Dreamtime’?

One has to really be interested in this subject matter to listen Marija Gimbuta’s lecture here dealing with the similar issue, (as reference):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjE2-H1R9Zs

Lithuanians – genetically - are the most Aboriginal Europeans – Saami and Finnics, I think coming close second (as we have additional Eurasian, Siberian mix and influences), but because Lithuanians I think became an agricultural society early - Gimbuta’s ‘Dreamtime’ seems to be in the Neolithic period, which is a mixture of Palaeolithic & Neolithic symbolism and she then blames the Indo-Europeans :D

I find Gimbuta’s explanations of the symbolic meanings very interesting, but can only really relate to bits of it, because ‘we’ up in the North were the last hunter-fisher-gatherers and as long as that lifestyle survived, so did the Palaeolithic myths.
The Stone Gods of Sacred places, Totemic Animal fore-fathers, the birth from the Cosmic Egg (usually the duck), the shamanic Three Wolds, The World Pillar, the Masters of the Forest and the Sea, Guardians of Species etc. etc. etc.
The Eurasian Thunderbird, Turanian Tree-Snake worship, Eurasian Earth Diver myths etc. all speak of the Animist-Totemist–Shamanic egalitarian Worldview.
So for us it is more about the “Mythic Images and Shamanism” – “The Sámi shaman – mediator between man and universe” - type of books that talk about ‘our’ Dreamtime.
So I blame the agriculturalists, Indo-Europeans and Christians for us having almost lost our ‘Dreamtime’ connection with Nature (blame them all! :D )

Well - not really - as long as we can go back and back and back to our original connection.
http://www.godeeper.info/uploads/8/2/4/1/8241512/3824132_orig.jpg?0

*

Thank you for sharing this and I'm listening to Gimbutas atm. I'm not entirely sure about what to make of her lecture. I'm sure she is challenging the orthodoxy of belief that might exist within Archeological Departments as to the existence and (purpose) of the Goddess within Palaeolithic and Neolithic cultures. In other words the Goddess didn't exist in the way that certain Archeological orthodoxies propose ? So it seems Gimbutas is challenging those beliefs, I have to listen to the whole lecture. The images are beautiful and striking, fascinating.

Immediately I'm curious as to where did the Goddess go ? To Hollywood, to the Parisian Catwalks ? My very strong immediate instinct is also what were the fruits of living in a Goddess culture, peace ? I suppose the whole idea of a Golden age of Alignment with what the Goddess represented and the beneficent flowerings and fruit of such an Alignment and did such an Alignment ever exist and to what extent. Sorry ive lost my train of thought there.

What about if the Goddess culture was a period of insanity and then the Big man in the form of Christianity entered the fray and it became a worse form of insanity and now the Punch and Judy show is coming to an end and we really are harking on an opportunity to stand back from this big squabble and say now now folks calm down. lol ..Is something like that on the horizon ?

Problem immediately for me is I see a lovely image of a Goddess perhaps with
those 45 degree lines that Gimbutas keeps pronoucing..ive forgotten the word and then i See a man next to that goddess with a Sword dripping with blood ? That is my problem really. Perhaps it is a propaganda of some sort existing within the mind of Joe, most likely but it's there isn't it ? So some food for thought. Thanks for sharing ..im going to listen on. :smile:

[sentient]

The Sketch:

Being European or being of European descent means that genetically and culturally ‘we’ are a mixture of 3 major migratory waves into Europe.

1. The original Hunter-Gatherers, the Shamanic Palaeolithic era.

2. The Early European Farmers - as in - migrations of Near Eastern populations into Europe who brought in the agriculture and this matriarchal Goddess business. The Neolithic era. (Now the Feminist’s ‘Dreamtime’)
No major warfare with the hunter-gatherers who retreated to the fringes and carried on as usual with their Shamanic business.

3. According to Gimbutas - enter the ‘John Waynes’ into the scene – the patriarchal, militant and hierarchical Kurgan Steppe Pastoralists – who killed people right, left and centre that were seen to be in the way of these brutes progression to take over and rule the European lands. They also brought the Indo-European language. Early Bronze Age.
Meanwhile back in the Forests among the Forest Spirits the hunter-fisher-gatherers carried on as usual with our Shamanic culture missing out on these Goddesses and Gods, but I do like to look at the images in Gimbutas' book, they are fascinating, a fantastic body of work :smile:

European invasions:
https://theconversation.com/european-invasion-dna-reveals-the-origins-of-modern-europeans-38096

*

[davidsun]

- enter the ‘John Waynes’ into the scene – the patriarchal, militant and hierarchical Kurgan Steppe Pastoralists – who killed people right, left and centre that were seen to be in the way of these brutes progression to take over and rule the European lands. They also brought the Indo-European language. Early Bronze Age.
My understanding is that the progression of spiritual history is not 'linear', rather is a 'seasonally' cyclical a gradually spiralling 'upward' - with periods wherein spiritual 'light' and 'dark', 'warmth' and 'cold', 'spring-summer' and 'fall-winter' alternatingly dominate.

As descriptively referenced in the Gita: "Whenever spirituality decays and materialism is rampant, then, O Arjuna, I reincarnate Myself! To protect the righteous, to destroy the wicked and to establish the kingdom of God, I am reborn from age to age. He who realizes the divine truth concerning My birth and life is not born again; and when he leaves his body, he becomes one with Me."

This is how 'cosmic-conscious' spiritual evolution resulting in self-transcendance and immortal union with THE Spirit of Life, which some reference as 'ascension', and which I sometime reference as a process of soul 'hatching' and 'fledging', proceeds.

The seasons of 'darkness', 'winter', John Wayne's rule! :biggrin: etc., are functionally essential, dynamic aspects of THE process, without which (i.e. if everything was just warm-n-fuzzy) there would be no 'incentive' for the referenced progression to 'take' 'place'.

That's why (and only why, IMO) it's all 'good' makes (good :biggrin: ) sense.

[Iamit]

I don’t know what the correct definition for the ‘mind’ is, but I always seem to come back to that word reflection and the Buddhist image of ‘one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water’.

And as we still the waters of our 'waterbowlness’ in order to be able to reflect ‘THAT’ – if it is not a sudden awakening, then I find that – like peeling onions, layers and layers of my subconscious patterning does come up for reflective review – to either relearn or unlearn, since these subconscious patterns either help or hinder the further surrendering to ‘THAT’ - process.

So I don’t think this statement by C.Perkins is true only for the Indigenous, but also for the Westerners (in the New Worlds):


Reconciling with both - Earthsong articles link, if anyone is interested:
http://earthsong.org.au/publications/journal/issue-1/issue-1-feature-article/


Even though this “One Spirit” - Nondual level is experienced, one still needs to deal with one’s own subconscious and (culturally) collective subconscious patterning layers, be they Shamanic (i.e. animist - subconsciously taking it for granted that all things in Nature has Spirit and/or Soul) or Christian, (subconsciously taking it for granted that only humans can have a Soul and be of Spirit.)

*

Who or what is this "one" that has to deal with this or that? Each the other and the One Love in action dreaming difference where there is none.

[davidsun]

Who or what is this "one" that has to deal with this or that? Each the other and the One Love in action dreaming difference where there is none.
Without 'differences', the surface' of 'ocean' of Being would be flat. So there'd be nothing to surf (or 'dance' with)!

BORING! just sitting lying around in BLISS.

LOVE and JOY wouldn't be a GRAND 'happening' then. T'would just be The One (Love all by Itself!) without even a thumb to 'suck', aye what? :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-1rQHduZ9g WOOHOO!

[Iamit]

Without 'differences', the surface' of 'ocean' of Being would be flat. So there'd be nothing to surf (or 'dance' with)!

BORING! just sitting lying around in BLISS.

LOVE and JOY wouldn't be a GRAND 'happening' then. T'would just be The One (Love all by Itself!) without even a thumb to 'suck', aye what? :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-1rQHduZ9g WOOHOO!

Its not about ending the appreciation of difference but rather the end of feeling disconected. It is in that context that nonduality asserts that despite the very convincing appearance of difference, All is One.

[sentient]

Carrying on with my own agenda here and my previously posted video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0

In the introduction of the above lecture by Gimbutas, it was said, that:
The evident relevance of her work to the universally recognized need in our time for a general transformation of consciousness – numerous writers, scholars and artists have been inspired by her decoding of the symbolic language of the life affirming, nature celebrating Earth Goddess religion of the Aboriginal Europeans.

Imo. this just isn’t right information.
I see Gimbutas mind reflecting the ‘dreaming’ (so to speak) of the Near Eastern agricultural migration population beliefs, the early European farmers.
As Gimbutas had also said: "Europeans are heirs of 2 entirely different cultures, the Early Farmer and the Indo-European" – so here she totally ignores the earlier culture - that of the original Hunter-Gatherers.
This same attitude later to be taken into the ‘New Worlds’ and claiming them to be Terra Nullius – Nobody’s land, void of any culture and ready for a rightful takeover by 'civilized' Europeans.

*

The Aboriginal Europeans were Shamanic and in the Shamanic Worldview - it is neither the matriarchal Earth Goddess nor the patriarchal Sky God – but both united - in balance.

Therefore – after a ‘Shamanic Death Experience’ - the Shaman becomes a ‘Third Gender’, because in order to be a channel of non dual energies prior to the dual split into male-female polarities one has to be both, yet neither. (Not to be misunderstood to mean gays, transvestites etc.)
i.e. it is only when there is an initiation or empowerment involving Energy/Spirit – that one realizes this Energy which one is dealing with IS beyond gender.

*

[Joe Mc]

The Sketch:

Being European or being of European descent means that genetically and culturally ‘we’ are a mixture of 3 major migratory waves into Europe.

1. The original Hunter-Gatherers, the Shamanic Palaeolithic era.

2. The Early European Farmers - as in - migrations of Near Eastern populations into Europe who brought in the agriculture and this matriarchal Goddess business. The Neolithic era. (Now the Feminist’s ‘Dreamtime’)
No major warfare with the hunter-gatherers who retreated to the fringes and carried on as usual with their Shamanic business.

3. According to Gimbutas - enter the ‘John Waynes’ into the scene – the patriarchal, militant and hierarchical Kurgan Steppe Pastoralists – who killed people right, left and centre that were seen to be in the way of these brutes progression to take over and rule the European lands. They also brought the Indo-European language. Early Bronze Age.
Meanwhile back in the Forests among the Forest Spirits the hunter-fisher-gatherers carried on as usual with our Shamanic culture missing out on these Goddesses and Gods, but I do like to look at the images in Gimbutas' book, they are fascinating, a fantastic body of work :smile:

European invasions:
https://theconversation.com/european-invasion-dna-reveals-the-origins-of-modern-europeans-38096

*

Great let me study that, thanks for the outline. :smile: See what comes through.

[sentient]

Great let me study that, thanks for the outline. :smile: See what comes through.
Yeah, enough said.
Thank you Joe.

A song for you:
“Last of the Wilds” with Celtic 'vibe' and Irish Uilleann pipes?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVLZppHLWF4

*

[davidsun]

Its not about ending the appreciation of difference but rather the end of feeling disconnected. It is in that context that nonduality asserts that despite the very convincing appearance of difference, All is One.
All is One is a 'self'-masturbatory 'high' (IMO, and only in IMO now!)

'Connecting' requires that one appreciate and be 'thrilled' by 'involvement' with, and so getting 'high' off of, the uniquely/special/different energy or vibe of an other.

It is in loving the/an other that one experiences 'connection'.

'Connection' with your 'self' or a feature thereof, whether it it be your 'hand' or your 'greater' (source/home self) is simply a 'given' fact of Life, like 'Being' is never 'Not' - as is implicit in statements like "Wherever you go, there you are!"

It occurs to me that maybe 'non-dualists' are not really missing/seeking the feeling/experience and creative possibilities inherent in a 'connection', but rather the feeling/experience of (being at) 'home' - which would explain why someone like me experiences such folks as being preoccupied with their 'own' feelings/experiences and not actually being or interested in being 'lovingly' ('love' in this case being a verb, now) relating/related.

I think that the whole purpose of souls individuating and (thereby) leaviing the 'womb' of their One-source 'home' (as they go into 'duality) is to experience and grow/evolve in ways which result in their being able to experience and express more different kinds and higher and higher levels of the 'best' kinds of love and joy in relation to others, and so suggest that preoccupation with Oneness, Non-Duality, etc. is likely to be counterproductive and Life-opportunity avoidant - sort of like a 'kid' at summer 'camp' who feels so 'homesick' that he or she doesn't eagerly/fully engage in all of the various possible activities available in said 'camp' setting with other 'campers'.

[weareunity]

I think the expression "all is one" is simply logic--as all which is is one. There is nothing, can be nothing, which is not included in "all"--that is what all means- to me anyway.
Seems to me there is a lot of mystique attached to a condition which just is, doesn't have to be made, fought for, argued for, etc.all is just there, and here, and everywhere. No skill needed, no practices needed to bring about.Already here, there, everywhere. Always here, there, everywhere. --and all regardless of being recognised or not. petex

[Iamit]

All is One is a 'self'-masturbatory 'high' (IMO, and only in IMO now!)

'Connecting' requires that one appreciate and be 'thrilled' by 'involvement' with, and so getting 'high' off of, the uniquely/special/different energy or vibe of an other.

It is in loving the/an other that one experiences 'connection'.

'Connection' with your 'self' or a feature thereof, whether it it be your 'hand' or your 'greater' (source/home self) is simply a 'given' fact of Life, like 'Being' is never 'Not' - as is implicit in statements like "Wherever you go, there you are!"

It occurs to me that maybe 'non-dualists' are not really missing/seeking the feeling/experience and creative possibilities inherent in a 'connection', but rather the feeling/experience of (being at) 'home' - which would explain why someone like me experiences such folks as being preoccupied with their 'own' feelings/experiences and not actually being or interested in being 'lovingly' ('love' in this case being a verb, now) relating/related.

I think that the whole purpose of souls individuating and (thereby) leaviing the 'womb' of their One-source 'home' (as they go into 'duality) is to experience and grow/evolve in ways which result in their being able to experience and express more different kinds and higher and higher levels of the 'best' kinds of love and joy in relation to others, and so suggest that preoccupation with Oneness, Non-Duality, etc. is likely to be counterproductive and Life-opportunity avoidant - sort of like a 'kid' at summer 'camp' who feels so 'homesick' that he or she doesn't eagerly/fully engage in all of the various possible activities available in said 'camp' setting with other 'campers'.

So the idea All is One doesn't work for you:)

What has worked for you, or would you still describe yourself as a seeker?

[Iamit]

I think the expression "all is one" is simply logic--as all which is is one. There is nothing, can be nothing, which is not included in "all"--that is what all means- to me anyway.
Seems to me there is a lot of mystique attached to a condition which just is, doesn't have to be made, fought for, argued for, etc.all is just there, and here, and everywhere. No skill needed, no practices needed to bring about.Already here, there, everywhere. Always here, there, everywhere. --and all regardless of being recognised or not. petex

Yes the idea "All is One" does resonate for some. Has it ended the search for you or would you still describe yourself as a seeker?

[weareunity]

Iamit. A statement of logic is not an idea. You have quoted my entire previous post, and if you have understood it you should be able to see the logical answer to the questions you ask of me. I take it that you have either not understood or are using questions to which you already know the logical answer for reasons of your own. It happens. petex

[davidsun]

So the idea All is One doesn't work for you:)

What has worked for you, or would you still describe yourself as a seeker?
All is One [there is only One Grand Being which 'contains' all being] is the basis on which (or from which) I operate.

"In Him (read 'him' as 'IT' or 'THAT') we live and move and have our being" works for me. I do not 'seek' (or feel a 'need' to 'seek') THAT.

I just wish/aim (and this could be called a kind of 'seeking', I suppose) to maximize the-more-the-merrier Love and Joy in communion with others in THAT context.

The way I think of it, 'disconnection' from THAT is impossible in Reality. Though thoughts and feelings (and beliefs?) of 'disconnection' can certainly be experienced as a kind of 'bad dream' wherein one 'seeks' to 'find' (experience?) 'connection' with THAT.

The best way to do that (i.e. to 'wake up' from said 'bad dream') is to love and joyfully embrace, i.e. 'connect' and thereby become associationally One with), beings and Beingness from and via being 'in' the world' of duality, I think.

'We' are all in this (i.e. in THAT) together. Look closely at and smell a rose, look into the eyes of and pat a puppy, share your 'private' thoughts with a friend and invite him or her to do so with you by listening to whatever he or shares pertaining to his or her 'private' thoughts and feelings appreciatively.

To modify Yoda's saying "Do not 'try', DO!": Do not 'seek', KNOW! 'Seeking' presupposes that there is something not yet within the realm of your consciousness to 'reach' and thereby 'get' to 'know'. That idea will just serve to keep the 'dream' (nightmare) going/continuing.

This may also help in THAT regard:

Imagine there are two you's. Just imagine like a kid fun-play-acting, first being 'you' as a 'person', as you personally presently are, and then as that person, in your mind speak to a 'greater' (imagined, now!) 'You'. Say or ask anything (i.e. whatever) spontaneously comes to mind in this 'skit' - remember it is just play-acting.

Then, again in your image-in-nation, imagine that you are now the second 'greater' 'You' - role-play 'God', i.e. All THAT Is, in other words - and in THAT 'role', imagine that 'You' 'hear' what your personal 'you' just said or asked of 'You'. And then just imagine 'saying' whatever comes to mind (in THAT role) to your personal 'you' as you imagine 'your' self to be.

Then switch 'places' (meaning 'roles') again and imagine 'hearing' (i.e. 'receiving') what 'your' 'greater' BUDDY :D 'You' just communicated back to 'you'.

Repeat as necessary, if, when and as 'you' continue to think and feel that 'you' are 'alone' (as 'opposed' to together, in intimate communication with 'your' greater 'You').

It may sound silly, but if you don't just blow this idea off as just child's play' that is not really actually 'true' in Reality, it (or similar kind of role-playing venture) will result in your 'bad dream' going POOF - maybe not right away, but eventually!

[Iamit]

All is One [there is only One Grand Being which 'contains' all being] is the basis on which (or from which) I operate.

"In Him (read 'him' as 'IT' or 'THAT') we live and move and have our being" works for me. I do not 'seek' (or feel a 'need' to 'seek') THAT.

I just wish/aim (and this could be called a kind of 'seeking', I suppose) to maximize the-more-the-merrier Love and Joy in communion with others in THAT context.

The way I think of it, 'disconnection' from THAT is impossible in Reality. Though thoughts and feelings (and beliefs?) of 'disconnection' can certainly be experienced as a kind of 'bad dream' wherein one 'seeks' to 'find' (experience?) 'connection' with THAT.

The best way to do that (i.e. to 'wake up' from said 'bad dream') is to love and joyfully embrace, i.e. 'connect' and thereby become associationally One with), beings and Beingness from and via being 'in' the world' of duality, I think.

'We' are all in this (i.e. in THAT) together. Look closely at and smell a rose, look into the eyes of and pat a puppy, share your 'private' thoughts with a friend and invite him or her to do so with you by listening to whatever he or shares pertaining to his or her 'private' thoughts and feelings appreciatively.

To modify Yoda's saying "Do not 'try', DO!": Do not 'seek', KNOW! 'Seeking' presupposes that there is something not yet within the realm of your consciousness to 'reach' and thereby 'get' to 'know'. That idea will just serve to keep the 'dream' (nightmare) going/continuing.

This may also help in THAT regard:

Imagine there are two you's. Just imagine like a kid fun-play-acting, first being 'you' as a 'person', as you personally presently are, and then as that person, in your mind speak to a 'greater' (imagined, now!) 'You'. Say or ask anything (i.e. whatever) spontaneously comes to mind in this 'skit' - remember it is just play-acting.

Then, again in your image-in-nation, imagine that you are now the second 'greater' 'You' - role-play 'God', i.e. All THAT Is, in other words - and in THAT 'role', imagine that 'You' 'hear' what your personal 'you' just said or asked of 'You'. And then just imagine 'saying' whatever comes to mind (in THAT role) to your personal 'you' as you imagine 'your' self to be.

Then switch 'places' (meaning 'roles') again and imagine 'hearing' (i.e. 'receiving') what 'your' 'greater' BUDDY :D 'You' just communicated back to 'you'.

Repeat as necessary, if, when and as 'you' continue to think and feel that 'you' are 'alone' (as 'opposed' to together, in intimate communication with 'your' greater 'You').

It may sound silly, but if you don't just blow this idea off as just child's play' that is not really actually 'true' in Reality, it (or similar kind of role-playing venture) will result in your 'bad dream' going POOF - maybe not right away, but eventually!

Yes for me also disconnection is impossible because it is not dependant on whatever state I may be in, for all states are a manifestion of THAT (Oneness). including the state of not experiencing "Love and Joy in communion with others". That was not and is not something I seek. If it happens fine, if not thats also fine because both are Oneness manifest so no disconnection involved if the latter arises as it is Oneness arising as not feeling it.

I was not always aware of the Idea "All is One" however, so did not have that feeling of connection to Oneness and would describe myself, at that time, as seeking that feeling of connection.

When that feeling of disconnection did end there was an intense focus on how that had happened. That reflection/interest has gone on for some time and taken all sorts of twists and turns. The result at the moment is that it was a match between the frequency/vibration of my mind (that which was conductiong the search) and the frequency/vibration of the idea All is One.

How would you describe your experience that resulted in "All is One [there is only One Grand Being which 'contains' all being] is the basis on which (or from which) I operate". Was there a period before that? What was it like? and what was involved in moving from the former to the latter? Was it the practise you have described above?

Thanks for sharing.

[davidsun]

How would you describe your experience that resulted in "All is One [there is only One Grand Being which 'contains' all being] is the basis on which (or from which) I operate". Was there a period before that? What was it like? and what was involved in moving from the former to the latter? Was it the practise you have described above?

I seem to have been born (intuitively?) 'knowing' THAT (presumably because of past-life realizations). My path/purpose in the life seems to have mostly been to come to terms with and learn how to positively (creatively) deal with others around me not 'knowing' and so not living in accord/harmony with THAT fact - which unknowing has always struck me as a kind of willful 'stupidity' which, having a 'teacher' mentality, I have always, though far from always successfully :smile:, sought to 'educate' them 'out' of.

The suggested 'practice' was/is a spontaneously invented exercise-suggestion which was offered as a way of (possibly) 'coaching' others who are not 'there' yet into personally 'grokking' said always-obvious-to-me realization - which invention has had the added benefit of helping/spur 'me' to more reflectively apply said knowledge in the context of 'my' 'own' immediate life-purpose-desire nexus, BTW. (Teachers also 'learn' (more) by 'teaching'! :biggrin:)

[davidsun]

When that feeling of disconnection did end there was an intense focus on how that had happened. That reflection/interest has gone on for some time and taken all sorts of twists and turns. The result at the moment is that it was a match between the frequency/vibration of my mind (that which was conductiong the search) and the frequency/vibration of the idea All is One.
P.S. Why don't you more specifically describe your more memorable 'twists and turns' in said regard as well as what to mean by "a match" (between the frequency/vibration of [your] mind (that which was conducting the search) and the frequency/vibration of the idea All is One.)

Some might get some 'pointers' redarding their own ongoing journey in such regards, Iamit.

At the very least, I would be interested in hearing about (and 'learning' from) your account.

[Iamit]

P.S. Why don't you more specifically describe your more memorable 'twists and turns' in said regard as well as what to mean by "a match" (between the frequency/vibration of [your] mind (that which was conducting the search) and the frequency/vibration of the idea All is One.)

Some might get some 'pointers' redarding their own ongoing journey in such regards, Iamit.

At the very least, I would be interested in hearing about (and 'learning' from) your account.

Prior to the resonance I must have come across the idea "All is One" during the search for connection but it had not resonated then. So the question is why not then and why many years later did the resonance occur? Presumably the energy/vibration/frequency of the idea had not changed so what was it in my energy/vibration/frequency that had changed to match that of the idea for the resonance to occur? I had not done any practise which some would say can prepare one for such a resonance.

It was clear to me from the start that it was mind that was conducting the search but it was only much later that it became clear that it was also mind that had the capacity to resonate with the solution it thought would work for the character (ego) it had constructed. What changes in character had mind noticed/allowed to regard the idea "All is One" as now a solution that would work?

My character has changed a lot from seeking truth to feeling that there may always be something hidden which may contradict the truth we think we know. Any resonance is very difficult if it first has to satisfy the condition that the idea resonated has to be the truth. So maybe it was not until that requirement was trancended that my mind considered my character ready for ANY resonance. It was a long time ago but I remember the parable of The Highwayman by Soren Kierkegaard having quite an effect concerning giving up the pursuit of the truth.

Please say any more you would like to say about the process you have been through/are going through.

[Iamit]

I seem to have been born (intuitively?) 'knowing' THAT (presumably because of past-life realizations). My path/purpose in the life seems to have mostly been to come to terms with and learn how to positively (creatively) deal with others around me not 'knowing' and so not living in accord/harmony with THAT fact - which unknowing has always struck me as a kind of willful 'stupidity' which, having a 'teacher' mentality, I have always, though far from always successfully :smile:, sought to 'educate' them 'out' of.

The suggested 'practice' was/is a spontaneously invented exercise-suggestion which was offered as a way of (possibly) 'coaching' others who are not 'there' yet into personally 'grokking' said always-obvious-to-me realization - which invention has had the added benefit of helping/spur 'me' to more reflectively apply said knowledge in the context of 'my' 'own' immediate life-purpose-desire nexus, BTW. (Teachers also 'learn' (more) by 'teaching'! :biggrin:)

Understood, thanks.

[Shivani Devi]

The connection referred to is the connection between the seeker and Source or whatever label the seeker may give to Oneness without distinction or discrimination. Connection between apparently separate looking people may or may not be felt, with or without opening the mouth:) Either way each is the other and the One Love in action, dreaming difference where there is none.Wherefore arises the connection/disconnection between "Self" and "Source" if all is Oneness?

[Iamit]

Wherefore arises the connection/disconnection between "Self" and "Source" if all is Oneness?

I assume the answer is conditioning from an early age that we are separate people. For myself, I would guess that was the case although I do not remember any terrifying conditioning as some do. That feeling of separation was always the case until, some years ago there was a resonance with the idea All is One, and the feeling of disconnection ended.

How do you view your history in terms of conditioning and its effects?

[Shivani Devi]

How do you view your history in terms of conditioning and its effects?A very interesting question.

I was 'conditioned' to follow the Hindu path and understand Lord Shiva as being 'God' or what you would call "Oneness" and others would call "Brahman".

I had a preconceived notion of the Deity based on Hindu epics and stories and yet the very definition of an omnipresent and omniscient being surpassed all that I only 'thought' I knew and Shiva was much more than any epic/scripture could even begin to define.

The whole mental concept of Deity is what we call "saguna" or "that which is understood through the mind according to attributed perception" however, I fell in love and I fell hard.

Through love, meditation, worship I understood Shiva in full essence...experienced that which people call Brahman/Oneness/Void and the many names and labels people have given to it, over any actuality OF it.

Yet, even after having that whole realisation, I went back to worshiping Shiva in a 'form' that my mind and heart could actually 'make sense of'...but it was totally different than before.

It was like that saying "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is"
http://thetattooedbuddha.com/2015/11/16/first-there-is-a-mountain-realizing-the-oneness-of-things/

This is why I post all these things I do on here and I hope it answers your question.

[davidsun]

Interesting journey our 'mind' (i.e. 'sense perceptions') takes us on, aye what? Though essentially the same phenom - just as no two snowflakes are 'the same', details pertaining to the everyone's personal journey are quintessentially (mind-blowingly! :biggrin:) different.

A very interesting question.It was like that saying "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is"
http://thetattooedbuddha.com/2015/11/16/first-there-is-a-mountain-realizing-the-oneness-of-things/
Great word-articulation at the link, SD!

[Iamit]

A very interesting question.

I was 'conditioned' to follow the Hindu path and understand Lord Shiva as being 'God' or what you would call "Oneness" and others would call "Brahman".

I had a preconceived notion of the Deity based on Hindu epics and stories and yet the very definition of an omnipresent and omniscient being surpassed all that I only 'thought' I knew and Shiva was much more than any epic/scripture could even begin to define.

The whole mental concept of Deity is what we call "saguna" or "that which is understood through the mind according to attributed perception" however, I fell in love and I fell hard.

Through love, meditation, worship I understood Shiva in full essence...experienced that which people call Brahman/Oneness/Void and the many names and labels people have given to it, over any actuality OF it.

Yet, even after having that whole realisation, I went back to worshiping Shiva in a 'form' that my mind and heart could actually 'make sense of'...but it was totally different than before.

It was like that saying "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is"
http://thetattooedbuddha.com/2015/11/16/first-there-is-a-mountain-realizing-the-oneness-of-things/

This is why I post all these things I do on here and I hope it answers your question.

Understood. Thanks Shivani. Nice to talk with you again to.