Love

[Shivani Devi]

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.

[Iamit]

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.

"yet dwelling in hate is preferred".

Who or what prefers?

[Shivani Devi]

"yet dwelling in hate is preferred".

Who or what prefers?The small self, the ego.

You could also say that the ego dwells within the love and love is an all-consuming passion just as much as hate is, but unconditional love leads to bliss, whereas abject hate leads to misery. Despite that which 'prefers', which is more preferable?

Bliss unfolds in Oneness as much as misery, but the existential awareness depends on its own effect which can be either SELF-productive or counter productive in regards.

[Iamit]

The small self, the ego.

You could also say that the ego dwells within the love and love is an all-consuming passion just as much as hate is, but unconditional love leads to bliss, whereas abject hate leads to misery. Despite that which 'prefers', which is more preferable?

Bliss unfolds in Oneness as much as misery, but the existential awareness depends on its own effect which can be either SELF-productive or counter productive in regards.

Who or what is the smallself/ego? You know where this is going. Cut straight to the ultimate:)

[Shivani Devi]

Who or what is the smallself/ego? You know where this is going. Cut straight to the ultimate:)The small self/ego is that which believes it is independent from the existence of itself as the universal love-bliss or Brahman.

The small self or ego is restricted by and within its own thought process as being 'this' or 'that'...doing 'this' or 'that' and whatever duality is arising is only a manifestation of the Oneness...but what is it that manifests within its own manifestation?

What gives rise to itself in matter? in name/form as being disconnected from itself as perceived by the mind and senses which only experiences it as such?

...and yes, I am fully aware where this is going. :smile:

May I ask you, are you happy? I mean, in the general sense...is happiness unfolding more than just ambivalence, connection and the interconnection?

However, if I were to cut straight to the Ultimate, I wouldn't be able to type here.

[shivatar]

"yet dwelling in hate is preferred".

Who or what prefers?


You are the T?????

[Iamit]

You are the T?????

Depends what you mean by "T".

[Shivani Devi]

Depends what you mean by "T".I must say that Shivatar's response has me quite stumped as well. Kindly elaborate please, Shivatar.

[shivatar]

I must say that Shivatar's response has me quite stumped as well. Kindly elaborate please, Shivatar.

The IAM THE T ____IT.

lol

edit: let me know if you laughed. I died laughing. lol

[Iamit]

The IAM THE T ____IT.

lol

edit: let me know if you laughed. I died laughing. lol

Oh I see.....yes and so are you.

[shivatar]

Oh I see.....yes and so are you.


ohh yeahh baby, 30x pair of double D.

[Shivani Devi]

The IAM THE T ____IT.

lol

edit: let me know if you laughed. I died laughing. lol
I sort of tried to smile, raised the corner of one lip, but nope, didn't happen.

Having said that and to get back to (t)it, you can teach a parrot to say "I AM" and yes, it's even a nice thing to know, to be aware of...to understand.

But that which is love...Brahman...Oneness...Shiva...God...whatever name you call 'IT' cannot be known, understood by the mind, although we DO try, don't we, Shivatar?

We think we know Him and then it's 'nope, that ain't it'...and then it's like "okay smarty-God, who's saying 'that aint it?" and it's like "you know" and I'm like "no, I don't...show me!" and then it's "what would you have me show you?" and we're like "You!" and God's like "I'm showing you, but you can't see it" and then we're like "what's the use showing me then, smarty-God?" and God goes "Who is showing you?" and we're like "...but you said you're showing me...so you are you, right?" and God goes "nope, that ain't it...try moar plz" and you go "sheesh, you're impossible, I give UP" and God goes "great! now you can see me".

[shivatar]

I sort of tried to smile, raised the corner of one lip, but nope, didn't happen.

Having said that and to get back to (t)it, you can teach a parrot to say "I AM" and yes, it's even a nice thing to know, to be aware of...to understand.

But that which is love...Brahman...Oneness...Shiva...God...whatever name you call 'IT' cannot be known, understood by the mind, although we DO try, don't we, Shivatar?

We think we know Him and then it's 'nope, that ain't it'...and then it's like "okay smarty-God, who's saying 'that aint it?" and it's like "you know" and I'm like "no, I don't...show me!" and then it's "what would you have me show you?" and we're like "You!" and God's like "I'm showing you, but you can't see it" and then we're like "what's the use showing me then, smarty-God?" and God goes "Who is showing you?" and we're like "...but you said you're showing me...so you are you, right?" and God goes "nope, that ain't it...try moar plz" and you go "sheesh, you're impossible, I give UP" and God goes "great! now you can see me".

I don't bother trying to be what I cannot be.

I am all that I can be, at that I entirely succeed.

[Shivani Devi]

I don't bother trying to be what I cannot be.

I am all that I can be, at that I entirely succeed.
How do you know what you cannot be and what sets this perceived limitation?

Isn't what you are also everything you cannot be, by very definition?

What stops me from having that full-on Shiva experience again? love.

[blossomingtree]

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.

Hello Shivani Devi

Please forgive that I have not read through this entire thread; time is short of late so I am only skimming.

Regarding this opening post, I wanted to let you know that in my way of knowledge, love is not something conditional, nor is it only a feeling, an emotion, it is not even a state.

In my area of training, unconditional (or true) love is without conditions, it is ever present, omni-present, it knows no differentiation, it is love unbound and lived fully to the fore. In fact, it is the life blood of the Universe.

In my limited experience, there are many states of ecstasy, clarity, or many states which are seemingly out of this world, times of feeling - at least they are enough to get our attention. Were it not for this would so many of us stay the path of spiritual practice :smile: But it is not the end of the story for if it were so, that would mean Love comes and goes as well, whereas God could never be absent, if God is real.

I also wanted to add that, in my opinion, Love arises out of a two-fold manifestation:

1. Practice - the practices and themes that help a spiritual aspirant course and navigate from a limited perspective to a much wider expanse, where ego is effectively minimized/neutralized and in the Adepts, well, :smile:

2. Wisdom - this refers to the direct inner knowing (Gnosis) of spiritual themes and "inner knowledge" that arises from practice. This helps inform and educate the supplicant with things such as the true nature of the person, consciousness, the world, etc. These matters temper the supplicant and inform him/her in ways that are beyond ordinary (or read) knowledge, and help forge the spiritual destiny that lies ahead for all those on the path.

This is my perspective anyway :smile:

BT

[Shivani Devi]

Hello Shivani Devi

Please forgive that I have not read through this entire thread; time is short of late so I am only skimming.

Regarding this opening post, I wanted to let you know that in my way of knowledge, love is not something conditional, nor is it only a feeling, an emotion, it is not even a state.

In my area of training, unconditional (or true) love is without conditions, it is ever present, omni-present, it knows no differentiation, it is love unbound and lived fully to the fore. In fact, it is the life blood of the Universe.

In my limited experience, there are many states of ecstasy, clarity, or many states which are seemingly out of this world, times of feeling - at least they are enough to get our attention. Were it not for this would so many of us stay the path of spiritual practice :smile: But it is not the end of the story for if it were so, that would mean Love comes and goes as well, whereas God could never be absent, if God is real.

I also wanted to add that, in my opinion, Love arises out of a two-fold manifestation:

1. Practice - the practices and themes that help a spiritual aspirant course and navigate from a limited perspective to a much wider expanse, where ego is effectively minimized/neutralized and in the Adepts, well, :smile:

2. Wisdom - this refers to the direct inner knowing (Gnosis) of spiritual themes and "inner knowledge" that arises from practice. This helps inform and educate the supplicant with things such as the true nature of the person, consciousness, the world, etc. These matters temper the supplicant and inform him/her in ways that are beyond ordinary (or read) knowledge, and help forge the spiritual destiny that lies ahead for all those on the path.

This is my perspective anyway :smile:

BT...and what an amazing and true perspective it is!

Thank you, Blossom.

[7luminaries]

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.
Inspired :smile: My heart and soul are uplifted by these statements, yours and BT's immediately below.

Very nice...:hug3: Thank you.
Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Hello Shivani Devi

Please forgive that I have not read through this entire thread; time is short of late so I am only skimming.

Regarding this opening post, I wanted to let you know that in my way of knowledge, love is not something conditional, nor is it only a feeling, an emotion, it is not even a state.

In my area of training, unconditional (or true) love is without conditions, it is ever present, omni-present, it knows no differentiation, it is love unbound and lived fully to the fore. In fact, it is the life blood of the Universe.

In my limited experience, there are many states of ecstasy, clarity, or many states which are seemingly out of this world, times of feeling - at least they are enough to get our attention. Were it not for this would so many of us stay the path of spiritual practice :smile: But it is not the end of the story for if it were so, that would mean Love comes and goes as well, whereas God could never be absent, if God is real.

I also wanted to add that, in my opinion, Love arises out of a two-fold manifestation:

1. Practice - the practices and themes that help a spiritual aspirant course and navigate from a limited perspective to a much wider expanse, where ego is effectively minimized/neutralized and in the Adepts, well, :smile:

2. Wisdom - this refers to the direct inner knowing (Gnosis) of spiritual themes and "inner knowledge" that arises from practice. This helps inform and educate the supplicant with things such as the true nature of the person, consciousness, the world, etc. These matters temper the supplicant and inform him/her in ways that are beyond ordinary (or read) knowledge, and help forge the spiritual destiny that lies ahead for all those on the path.

This is my perspective anyway :smile:

BT
Lovely...beautifully said. Just spot on, all of it.

The next step for many, to which you allude, is to integrate this level of illumination "back down" into the level of individuated consciousness, within one's day-to-day realm and everyday, grounded reality and within one's everyday relationships and working contexts of being and doing.

We really are of many places and times [so to speak], all at once. When we finally realise that, we can allow ourselves the expansion of our experience and of our being, and begin to take the next steps on our journeys as eternal souls [individuated aspects of One consciousness] and as a communal species here and now.

What may now seem a paradox for some (grasping non-duality yet living day-to-day in separate physical forms with individuated (yet connected) consciousness, is really no paradox at all. Interbeing and ultimate Oneness is truth, as is our individuated consciousness and individuated manifest existence in the physical realm. Paradox is simply a term for describing aspects of reality which we've not yet apprehended or fully digested or integrated. In that sense, we could say all that is, is paradoxical on many levels for us. And yet, it is no less true that what is, is.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

"yet dwelling in hate is preferred".

Who or what prefers?
Iamit, hello there (I am addressed "you" personally :wink:, that is, your individuated yet interconnected consciousness within your temporal incarnation) and I hope you're well!

Please see my follow-on adds to Blossom above. Having established the who's, we can now discuss the why's.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.
My interpretation of Shivani's statement is as follows, very broad strokes...
No one is separate as in truly apart, as we in our individuated consciousness exist in interbeing. Our relationship to the One is all at once fractal, emanation, and individuation. We are not separate from the one but neither do any one of us fully comprise all that is, regardless of whether or not we expand our individuated consciousness to the level of all that is. It is not wholly correct to say individuated consciousness is illusory. It is not illusory. The perception of strict separation is the great illusion. We are individuated aspects of Oneness. We are nothing but dust and ashes (material reality) and yet the universe was created for us (by Us as Oneness).

The relationship of awareness of non-duality to awareness of our individuated existence is (just for illustration) a bit like the "magic ratio" of positive : negative interactions/statements/etc. Which is, acc'd to researchers, around 5:1. Many of us would say it should be a bit closer to at least 10:1, hahaha. But let's go with it. A similar sort of ratio is needed for humanity's balance of energetic and manifest lovingkindess to equanimity. These can be represented kabbalistically (mystically) as (let's just say) 5 parts lovingkindness to one part equanimity (awe/faith, judgment, strength, discipline).

I put someone like Jesus as more like 2:1 or 3:1...but I don't think humanity is there yet...meaning, he was able to essentially change the laws of manifest reality to sustain physical existence without the necessary additional portion of expansive weak energy (lovingkindness) yet without causing a total collapse. He basically brought different laws into this physical realm, such that (I suppose) less expansive speed is required to sustain the balance of strong force (equanimity) to weak force. What Jesus did, was manifest a MUCH more powerful "weak" force, a much more powerful lovingkindness. One that was able to handle a much higher ratio of weak : strong force, of lovingkindness to equanimity.

This is why his teachings speak so powerfully to both energies, but in a way that is not present in most other masters' teachings. I am not a Christian, BTW. I simply see that the way forward for humanity will involve strengthening the power of our lovingkindness along these lines, such that a much greater degree of equanimity can also be made manifest. We will not be the same humanity when we are done. We will literally have transformed not only ourselves but our entire reality, and at the most fundamental of levels. This is the power of lovingkindness...to ultimately allow for a vastly greater expression of equanimity WHILST doing so from a place of individuation, or infinite variation of individuated consciousness.

Similarly...and by no coincidence...IMO the balance that humanity will need to move forward, very broadly, will be integrating that same sort of mix of groundedness in individuated interbeing with awareness of the larger non-duality. Those who veer too strongly into ungrounded non-duality will eventually tend to obstruct their own progress as individuated consciousness. This is obviously far less common in humanity at this time, LOL...though it's possible for some. Harm to others as well as self is also possible from this sort of imbalance. Clearly, there is almost never any theoretical instance where overriding or denying the existence of someone's individual humanity has ever accrued any greater good. This is the energy of excessive equanimity (balance of highest good of all equally to the self), which will easily subsume the individuated aspects entirely without a sufficient & far greater relative portion of expansive "weak force", or lovingkindness. For example you can see this manifest in the physical realm on a very large scale...i.e., how is it that all matter is not eventually sucked into a nearby black hole? It's at least partly to do with the vast speed at which space is expanding and things are moving away from one another.

Likewise, those who veer too strongly toward immersion in the individuated aspects, particularly indulgence in sensate, material, and overreaching, aggressive aspects of reality, also tend to obstruct their own progress. This is obviously far more common in humanity at this time...as we are nearly drowning under the weight of our violence, vices, degradations, addictions, and exploitations directed toward self, others, and Gaia. This is the energy of excessive lovingkindness (tolerance, acceptance of individuation and of the infinite diversity of what is...particularly and centrally for oneself) without sufficient equanimity (seeking the highest good of all). Though we need a much larger portion of this expansive energy to prevent total consumption of all that is back into the emptiness...still, a sufficient portion is critical for our sustainability AND progress, either one, on any level. We can look around at our modern culture and clearly see how a lack of sufficient internal and culturally-supported (normative, expected) portion of equanimity leads to a severe imbalance, with pervasive misalignment and suffering perpetrated onto both self and others.

Those who say hate is a part of the unfolding of Oneness by way of justifying their imbalance on either side...(though imbalance on the side of excessive tolerance for oneself without adequate equanimity for all others is far more common today IMO) are, presumably, adequately aware of the imbalance and are choosing to perpetrate it rather than owning it and addressing it. I call this the integrity gap; once sufficiently aware, we are at some level consciously choosing in each now moment either to address it and move toward balance and right alignment, or else to ignore it or even to actively perpetrate it.

Put another way, if we want a greater recognition of non-duality and the implicit apprehension of the equanimity of all that is, we'll need to invest in ownership and lovingkindness within manifest individuation ...and do so in the most radical possible ways.

And heartfelt thanks as always to the guides, who provide insight to me which I unpack later for consideration and reflection. :hug:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Shivani Devi]

Likewise, those who veer too strongly toward immersion in the individuated aspects, particularly indulgence in sensate, material, and overreaching, aggressive aspects of reality, also tend to obstruct their own progress. This is obviously far more common in humanity at this time...as we are nearly drowning under the weight of our violence, vices, degradations, addictions, and exploitations directed toward self, others, and Gaia. This is the energy of excessive lovingkindness (tolerance, acceptance of individuation and of the infinite diversity of what is...particularly and centrally for oneself) without sufficient equanimity (seeking the highest good of all). Though we need a much larger portion of this expansive energy to prevent total consumption of all that is back into the emptiness...still, a sufficient portion is critical for our sustainability AND progress, either one, on any level. We can look around at our modern culture and clearly see how a lack of sufficient internal and culturally-supported (normative, expected) portion of equanimity leads to a severe imbalance, with pervasive misalignment and suffering perpetrated onto both self and others.

Those who say hate is a part of the unfolding of Oneness by way of justifying their imbalance on either side...(though imbalance on the side of excessive tolerance for oneself without adequate equanimity for all others is far more common today IMO) are, presumably, adequately aware of the imbalance and are choosing to perpetrate it rather than owning it and addressing it. I call this the integrity gap; once sufficiently aware, we are at some level consciously choosing in each now moment either to address it and move toward balance and right alignment, or else to ignore it or even to actively perpetrate it.
Precisely, 7L and this was the whole impetus behind my creation of this thread in the first place!

Thank you for your beautiful comments and taking the time to elaborate on my humble mental offerings. <3

I have learned throughout my life and moreso recently, that people (in general) will only acknowledge another's existence only if it benefits them by doing so, or if they have something to 'teach', 'prove' or 'lord over' by allowing it.

If another is simply 'being themselves' and 'existing in their own awareness/bliss' or just saying stuff for the heck of it...and if another cannot question it, if another cannot argue with it, if they cannot fight it, if it doesn't stimulate them into direct aggression or mental agitation, neither what is being said, nor who is saying it even exists!

I have proven this over and over and over (ad nauseum)!

I shall make a thread, like "Schrodinger's Cat" for example...like many offerings I have made in the Hindu forum, like many replies I have made all OVER these boards, like many things I have said in real life too, like suggestions I have made, like correcting a definition, expressing my own truth...and guess what? it gets IGNORED and do you know why? because it isn't being confrontational in the aspect of anger and intolerance! I am not 'hateful' enough it seems to be acknowledged!

It is because I am not hurting anybody else by doing/saying it! because people want to be attacked! they want to be hated! they want to be stimulated mentally by ANY emotion that does not include love! and I just cannot oblige there...I mean, of course, I can say "you are a stupid idiot if you believe that. It's a load of rubbish! you are delusional...it is NOT how things are" and you just watch, I will emerge from that total invisibility and obscurity into "whoa, so this thing that is directly attacking me actually EXISTS"...and I feel that is why people do it, or else another wouldn't give a tinker's cuss about their neighbour, quite frankly.

[davidsun]

...
I have learned throughout my life and moreso recently, that people (in general) will only acknowledge another's existence only if it benefits them by doing so, or if they have something to 'teach', 'prove' or 'lord over' by allowing it.

If another is simply 'being themselves' and 'existing in their own awareness/bliss' or just saying stuff for the heck of it...and if another cannot question it, if another cannot argue with it, if they cannot fight it, if it doesn't stimulate them into direct aggression or mental agitation, neither what is being said, nor who is saying it even exists!

I have proven this over and over and over (ad nauseum)!

I shall make a thread, like "Schrodinger's Cat" for example...like many offerings I have made in the Hindu forum, like many replies I have made all OVER these boards, like many things I have said in real life too, like suggestions I have made, like correcting a definition, expressing my own truth...and guess what? it gets IGNORED and do you know why? because it isn't being confrontational in the aspect of anger and intolerance! I am not 'hateful' enough it seems to be acknowledged!

It is because I am not hurting anybody else by doing/saying it! because people want to be attacked! they want to be hated! they want to be stimulated mentally by ANY emotion that does not include love! and I just cannot oblige there...I mean, of course, I can say "you are a stupid idiot if you believe that. It's a load of rubbish! you are delusional...it is NOT how things are" and you just watch, I will emerge from that total invisibility and obscurity into "whoa, so this thing that is directly attacking me actually EXISTS"...and I feel that is why people do it, or else another wouldn't give a tinker's cuss about their neighbour, quite frankly.
That strikes me as being a very unpleasant 'fate'.

Hoping this provides a clue as to how for your love may fully blossom (it is clearly blooming :smile: already ) let me pose a hypothetical which strikes me as possibly being useful to you (though it may not be - its just 'a shot in the dark' to to speak):

if a person 'dreamed' such scenario, what might one hypothesize about 'inner' dynamics of the 'dreamer' - that is, if one believed that 'dream's are (self)-created realities?

Some think we "reap what we sow" in 'reality' as well. They could be mistaken, however - and you may really just be surrounded by hateful people who are just looking for targets who are simply being themselves such as yourself to hate.

[Shivani Devi]

Indeed, David. It is a very unpleasant fate for me, almost a curse that myself as a person and whatever I say usually gets totally overlooked, ignored, dismissed by almost everybody out there, unless I'm being mean, rude, aggressive, hateful and spiteful and only then I'm noticed! only then do people see I exist!

I don't know if I am just surrounded by 'hateful people'...but it occurs almost 90% of the time both online AND in real life, that I almost have to strip naked in the middle of a conversation before people stop just talking among each other in my presence and start including me in their conversation! and no, no amount of me saying "I love you, so talk to me" makes any difference. I've tried to get their attention with love, with knowledge, with inspiration, by listening to them, by asking direct questions, by caring...but nothing works! I could bloody steal their bag from at their feet! - I missed my calling as a pickpocket it seems. lol I am a past master at 'blending in'...I'm the most totally unassuming, insignificant, irrelevant creature god ever put breath into!

The ONLY time I ever get noticed is when I pretend to be hateful, hurtful, spiteful, mean, "a brat" etc etc...that's why I learned how to be like that as a 'survival mechanism' to get what I need from life.

Yep, it's my karma and it's a curse.

[sentient]

But what if our primary "relationship" in life was with the “primordial space” rather than with other people?

Dzogchen asserts that our actual reality is that of inherently vast, boundless and primordial space (emptiness) within which form arises and disperses and within which all manifestations become the ornaments of spontaneous presence; experienced as purely appropriate, natural, uncontrived, and free. Form here refers to everything we experience - physicality, perceptions, thoughts, emotions, intellect - the whole gamut of what we believe to be the ‘real world’. Space is everything that is not form. Space is unmoving, whereas all form moves, often alluded to as the waves that come and go on the surface of the vast stillness that is the ocean. The trick is to rest in space and allow form to arise and dissipate into it without becoming attached to the enticing movement.

In Bali I loved the idea/concept that the Balinese dance is not a dance to an audience, instead it is an inward moving meditative offering to their Gods.

Which kind of leads me to this quote, by Chogyam Trungpa:
The fundamental characteristic of true compassion is pure and fearless openness without territorial limitations. There is no need to be loving and kind to one’s neighbours, no need to speak pleasantly to people and put on a pretty smile. This little game does not apply. In fact it is embarrassing. Real openness exists on a much larger scale, a revolutionary large and open scale, a universal scale. Compassion means for you to be as adult as you are, while still maintaining a childlike quality. In the Buddhist teachings the symbol for compassion, as I have already said, is one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water. The moon does not demand, “If you open to me, I will do you a favour and shine on you.” The moon just shines.
The point is not to want to benefit anyone or make them happy. There is no audience involved, no “me” and “them.” It is a matter of an open gift, complete generosity without the relative notions of giving and receiving. That is the basic openness of compassion: opening without demand. Simply be what you are. Be the master of the situation. If you will just “be,” then life flows around and through you. This will lead you into working and communicating with someone, which of course demands tremendous warmth and openness.

[Kioma]

The fundamental characteristic of true compassion is pure and fearless openness without territorial limitations. There is no need to be loving and kind to one’s neighbours, no need to speak pleasantly to people and put on a pretty smile. This little game does not apply. In fact it is embarrassing. Real openness exists on a much larger scale, a revolutionary large and open scale, a universal scale. Compassion means for you to be as adult as you are, while still maintaining a childlike quality. In the Buddhist teachings the symbol for compassion, as I have already said, is one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water. The moon does not demand, “If you open to me, I will do you a favour and shine on you.” The moon just shines.
The point is not to want to benefit anyone or make them happy. There is no audience involved, no “me” and “them.” It is a matter of an open gift, complete generosity without the relative notions of giving and receiving. That is the basic openness of compassion: opening without demand. Simply be what you are. Be the master of the situation. If you will just “be,” then life flows around and through you. This will lead you into working and communicating with someone, which of course demands tremendous warmth and openness.
Strength in openness. That is true love. When God does that, the result is the universe.

[7luminaries]

Precisely, 7L and this was the whole impetus behind my creation of this thread in the first place!

Thank you for your beautiful comments and taking the time to elaborate on my humble mental offerings. <3

Thank you the kind words :)
And thank you for your sharing as well Shivani :hug:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Shivani Devi]

In Bali I loved the idea/concept that the Balinese dance is not a dance to an audience, instead it is an inward moving meditative offering to their Gods.This is all that needed to be said to me!!! :hug3:

I think I still remember how to perform the Legong I was taught a long time ago.

But what if our primary "relationship" in life was with the “primordial space” rather than with other people? For me, this is the case already! I was born that way!

I'd love to be able to have relationships with other people as they seem to be able to have with each other, but for some reason, that wasn't meant to be for me and I don't know why. A lifetime of relationships counseling has failed in regard!

Yep, I was just meant to dance only for Shiva and not other people and Shiva gets very jealous and possessive if I try it. If others don't see me as existing, I should really stop pretending that they do, just so I can be a 'human' and all that entails.

I'll watch this again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JundExZ4XgA

Also, maybe one day I'm going to create a few sock-puppet accounts on here just so I can talk to myself online like I do in real life, because nobody else ever does...I've all but decided that's the way out of this conundrum and the only way to go...create real people in my head!

[davidsun]

Indeed, David. It is a very unpleasant fate for me, almost a curse that myself as a person and whatever I say usually gets totally overlooked, ignored, dismissed by almost everybody out there, unless I'm being mean, rude, aggressive, hateful and spiteful and only then I'm noticed! only then do people see I exist!

I don't know if I am just surrounded by 'hateful people'...but it occurs almost 90% of the time both online AND in real life, that I almost have to strip naked in the middle of a conversation before people stop just talking among each other in my presence and start including me in their conversation! and no, no amount of me saying "I love you, so talk to me" makes any difference. I've tried to get their attention with love, with knowledge, with inspiration, by listening to them, by asking direct questions, by caring...but nothing works! I could bloody steal their bag from at their feet! - I missed my calling as a pickpocket it seems. lol I am a past master at 'blending in'...I'm the most totally unassuming, insignificant, irrelevant creature god ever put breath into!

The ONLY time I ever get noticed is when I pretend to be hateful, hurtful, spiteful, mean, "a brat" etc etc...that's why I learned how to be like that as a 'survival mechanism' to get what I need from life.

Yep, it's my karma and it's a curse.
It strikes me that what has 'happened' in this thread is evidence that the 'pattern' (karma?) that you describe (above) may be changing. Clearly, what you say/said here is not being ignored and you are not being hostilely responded to here-now.

It therefore occurs to me that you may have 'succeeded' in 'finding' a way of 'speaking' and 'talking about matters of importance to you in a way that others find interesting and relatable to, both in terms of 'content' and in terms of manner (i.e. interpersonal attitude and stance implicit in) of the presentation.

Whatever the case is, I think it is important that you notice the change and so don't reactivate/repeat the prior pattern 'from memory'.

:smile:

[Shivani Devi]

It strikes me that what has 'happened' in this thread is evidence that the 'pattern' (karma?) that you describe (above) may be changing. Clearly, what you say/said here is not being ignored and you are not being hostilely responded to here-now.

It therefore occurs to me that you may have 'succeeded' in 'finding' a way of 'speaking' and 'talking about matters of importance to you in a way that others find interesting and relatable to, both in terms of 'content' and in terms of manner (i.e. interpersonal attitude and stance implicit in) of the presentation.

Whatever the case is, I think it is important that you notice the change and so don't reactivate/repeat the prior pattern 'from memory'.

:smile:Thank you David. :hug2:

Does this mean that you've stopped ignoring me whenever I reply to your posts now and so we can get over our differences we've had in the past and dare I say it, be friends?

[Shivani Devi]

Although, it has also been just revealed to me that repetition is also the key.

Some people only need to say something once and their message gets across...others need to say the same thing a hundred times before somebody realises they have actually said anything.

In future, if I don't get any feedback, I'll just keep repeating myself over and over until I do...even if that feedback is 'shut up' because I will at least be acknowledged as having been heard.

Good plan!

[Shivani Devi]

Thank you the kind words :)
And thank you for your sharing as well Shivani :hug:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L
Thank you. Peace and blessings be to you as well. :hug3:

*goes and makes dream jo feel better by talking to her when most on here ignore her*

[sentient]

Having climbed the Mt. Disappointment for quite some time - aloneness as my only consort, I am getting quite used to being faithful to my hopelessness.

https://www.goodmorningquote.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/sad-osho-quotes.jpg

:biggrin:

[Iamit]

Having climbed the Mt. Disappointment for quite some time - aloneness as my only consort, I am getting quite used to being faithful to my hopelessness.

https://www.goodmorningquote.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/sad-osho-quotes.jpg

:biggrin:

That could be a most beneficial state:)

See "Character and Neo Advaita"

[Shivani Devi]

Having climbed the Mt. Disappointment for quite some time - aloneness as my only consort, I am getting quite used to being faithful to my hopelessness.

https://www.goodmorningquote.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/sad-osho-quotes.jpg

:biggrin:Yep, I must make it an unwilling ally as well.

Oops..."access denied 1011 error!"

Let me try something instead:

http://img.picturequotes.com/2/7/6768/you-never-know-god-is-all-you-need-until-god-is-all-you-have-quote-1.jpg

*goes to make a difference in the life of a pot plant by watering it*

[davidsun]

Thank you David.

Does this mean that you've stopped ignoring me whenever I reply to your posts now and so we can get over our differences we've had in the past and dare I say it, be friends?
Yes, hopefully - the possibility 'shines' brightly now. :D

But also no, maybe - re-gression ever lurks (though off-stage now)

Been working (and playing) sometimes 'roughly' (spanky lol) to get to a place of win-win 'connection' witchoo (among others!).

The on-stage 'touch' ex-peer-ience with you (now) sure feels wonder-wolly-full! :hug2:

Re-MEMBER. 'Friends' is as 'friends' does!

Cliche: Be 'the change' you want to see (i.e. ex-peer-ience).

There are a lot of not as preincarnationally inclined-to-be-a-'squeeky'-wheel-soul-beings in the world, here maybe in a higher percentage than most places.

Please don't take any 'non'-response on my part to be 'neglect' or an expression of 'approbation' in the future. I have a LOT of other 'fish' to 'fry' :D as well, including my 'own' (lol) 'self'! . Just know, or at least try to assume, that 'I' am keenly conscious of 'you' and feel with you whenever I see/read your often quite insightful utterances.

It strikes me that attending (like a 'serve-ant'-not-a-condescendingly-bequeathing-'lord') to others who are 'suffering' or 'languishing' in 'I'solation - note: this doesn't mean getting them to like or be like 'you'! - 'you' are your garden row to hoe, veggies, weeds, earth-worms and all! :smile: ! - being such kind of serve-ant (we are all just peewee poppings in a BIG ant-hill!) may well be the 'perfect' career-path-to-your-n-me-n-them integration-love-n-joy-happiness. Know that bliss ever awaits you whenever you wish to get out of 'here'. Your uniquely deep and variegated personal and transpersonal experience of extreme 'I'solation js knowledge-prepped you well for this 'job'!

IMO, your recent personal response to 'Sentient' rates an A+ in the above regard!

:love9:

[Shivani Devi]

Yes, hopefully - the possibility 'shines' brightly now.

But also no, maybe - re-gression ever lurks (though off-stage now)

Been working (and playing) sometimes 'roughly' (spanky lol) to get to a place of win-win 'connection' witchoo (among others!).

The on-stage 'touch' ex-peer-ience with you (now) sure feels wonder-wolly-full!

Re-MEMBER. 'Friends' is as 'friends' does!

Cliche: Be 'the change' you want to see (i.e. ex-peer-ience).

There are a lot of not as preincarnationally inclined-to-be-a-'squeeky'-wheel-soul-beings in the world, here maybe in a higher percentage than most places.

Please don't take any 'non'-response on my part to be 'neglect' or an expression of 'approbation' in the future. I have a LOT of other 'fish' to 'fry' :D as well, including my 'own' (lol) 'self'! . Just know, or at least try to assume, that 'I' am keenly conscious of 'you' and feel with you whenever I see/read your often quite insightful utterances.

It strikes me that attending (like a 'serve-ant'-not-a-condescendingly-bequeathing-'lord') to others who are 'suffering' or 'languishing' in 'I'solation - note: this doesn't mean getting them to like or be like 'you'! - 'you' are your garden row to hoe, veggies, weeds, earth-worms and all! :smile: ! - being such kind of serve-ant (we are all just peewee poppings in a BIG ant-hill!) may well be the 'perfect' career-path-to-your-n-me-n-them integration-love-n-joy-happiness. Know that bliss ever awaits you whenever you wish to get out of 'here'. Your uniquely deep and variegated personal and transpersonal experience of extreme 'I'solation js knowledge-prepped you well for this 'job'!

IMO, your recent personal response to 'Sentient' rates an A+ in the above regard!

:love9:Thank you, David. :hug3:

The past two days have been spent doing Balinese dance, listening to Rudrashtakam and the Shiva Panchakshara Stotram basically non-stop and going into the medicinal properties ashwaghanda, shilajit, reishi mushrooms and other adaptogens to produce adrenal DHEA - I've been going into and out of trance states, often finding myself staring at 'nothing' for hours while my hands are doing auto-mudras, seeking to improve function of the connection between my amygdala and prefrontal cortex in regards to the conversion of emotion.

I guess I still have to learn to 'choose my moments' and that's something Shiva is helping me with .

[naturesflow]

Strength in openness. That is true love. When God does that, the result is the universe.


Yes open to yourself, open to the world around you. The courage and strength to be present in this way with yourself and life. You don't leave anything out in this way. Everything is open to reveal itself as the universal consciousness reflecting itself..

[naturesflow]

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.


The world in chaos is full of everything. The emptiness of self no longer in the chaos experiences everything, full and aware, because it has opened to know itself beyond the chaos of everything.

Be love, be loved, be loving, if that is what calls you.

Some people have to be open and share the love, the balance of the world needs it..:)

[davidsun]

Be love, be loved, be loving, if that is what calls you.

Some people have to be open and share the love, the balance of the world needs it..:)
It does 'call' everyone - though not everyone 'hears' 'the call' - and of those that do, not all 'listen'.

And so, wave after wave of hearers, listeners, and still-deaf-n-dumb-er, spiraling round after round it grows!

Woohoo, naturesflow! :biggrin:

[Sugar-n-Spice]

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.
I do not really understand much of this butv I hope you will be able to love freely without paralel to others and their experieces or not

[naturesflow]

It does 'call' everyone - though not everyone 'hears' 'the call' - and of those that do, not all 'listen'.

And so, wave after wave of hearers, listeners, and still-deaf-n-dumb-er, spiraling round after round it grows!

Woohoo, naturesflow! :biggrin:


Well the call of life leads people to experience love as a stream flowing freely for any aspect of themselves and their life...Some move in the stream of love for some things and not for others. some dive in deep like me and let the ocean of love take over and saturate their entire being...hehe

..So perhaps the listening is more about preference of how one chooses to experience love. Which we know is many and varied ways. Not just one way.

Of course the potential of love as we know can be the totality of you if you so choose. As I mentioned if you deepen into your loving self open and aware you can, that helps you to live a life you love. The needs of love are known to some, not known to others. I guess that is why we have many lives to experience ourselves in lots of ways of love and the love dance..

I think this time right now is opening people a lot faster than any time we have known before. Intuitively I am aware of the love stream through my many lives now awakening. My soul is ripe I guess. :)

Are you wooing me? Or is that woo hooing all about you wooing yourself..:wink:

[akez24]

unconditional love never fades, its illumination matures forever, contingent on life to experience it.

'where there is life, there is love'
-gandhi

humans represent theirself first. love and acceptance of self is crucial to release impeding restraint; tho currently nothing can escape physical confine of the universe.

[davidsun]

..So perhaps the listening is more about preference of how one chooses to experience love. Which we know is many and varied ways. Not just one way.
I meant 'listen' in the sense of paying 'attention', being 'conscious' of whether and how one was experiencing love (or not), whether and how one was being loving (or not). I think that all being is nature-ally 'geared' to desire and move towards 'love' and 'being loving' of whatever it is that they appreciate and enjoy about Life, but people's hearts-n-minds often get so caught up in a myriad other concerns-n-foci that they often lose touch-with-n-sight-of love and possibilities in said regard. Yes, there are as many 'ways' for love to be experienced and flow :smile: in as for fish to swim in the ocean.

Are you wooing me? Or is that woo hooing all about you wooing yourself..:wink:
I am LIFE woo-hooing LIFE, LIFE loving one! :biggrin:

[akez24]

peoples status is never static and according to your actions you can gain or lose perceived power over certain periods of time and form humanitys history. instill love in offspring from before conception.

humans kno love- tho subjective to each person, it exists to be utilized as an implement for learning and understanding.

[akez24]

humans concealed pain, can build up to a level where hopelessness is so great, you have a break down and only change is certain.

humans welcome love and express it thru supporting eachother, providing for the needs of their fellow man; as the earth does us. you have to love yourself first, before any progress can be made for humanity.

[naturesflow]

I meant 'listen' in the sense of paying 'attention', being 'conscious' of whether and how one was experiencing love (or not), whether and how one was being loving (or not). I think that all being is nature-ally 'geared' to desire and move towards 'love' and 'being loving' of whatever it is that they appreciate and enjoy about Life, but people's hearts-n-minds often get so caught up in a myriad other concerns-n-foci that they often lose touch-with-n-sight-of love and possibilities in said regard. Yes, there are as many 'ways' for love to be experienced and flow :smile: in as for fish to swim in the ocean.

True that. Patterns that are conditioned patterns can be deeply etched until one notices them. I was blind once, now I see, I resisted feelings once, now I feel, I attached to patterns, then I let go, so I learn that life is tricky in this way. Process and unfolding of lives seems to take into account the nature of life as it is and the nature of process as it unfolds. Of course interventions come into play in this regard so when we are neglecting or cant see, often something awakens the view, so we do look and notice ourselves in that view and what it might mean differently for us in the way life seems to want us to be, open and in touch with ourselves more so..

I suspect fishy fish are just doing what fishy fish do.


I am LIFE woo-hooing LIFE, LIFE loving one! :biggrin:

Thank God for that!!
:tongue:

[akez24]

the exact moment humans join together and realize theres plenty to go around is unknown. the earth provides our needs. greed of excess unnecessary

[naturesflow]

the exact moment humans join together and realize theres plenty to go around is unknown. the earth provides our needs. greed of excess unnecessary


Hello akez, sometimes those moments don't happen and in process your correct, those turning points are unknown for each individual unless they are open and share as such. The earth provides, but humans are part of the earth and they as we know don't nurture all beings without greed and lots of other aspects of troubled hearts and troubled minds..The list goes on.

[Dargor]

Love is nothing but an illusion. I personally have no use for it.

[naturesflow]

Love is nothing but an illusion. I personally have no use for it.

Love it!!!

[naturesflow]

Love is nothing but an illusion. I personally have no use for it.
Hemingway said that to be a decent writer, one needs a built-in, foolproof **** detector — and I like to think I have that. So anytime that any person has started to express feelings of great affection for me, I've thought: "You're a complete idiot. You have NO IDEA WHO I AM. Whatever you like about me is much more about you — and who you think I am — than it is about the real me." - Maura Kelly

If you love yourself deep enough, you will notice people who connect and feel it, fall in love with their own reflection....hehehe

[Dargor]

Hemingway said that to be a decent writer, one needs a built-in, foolproof **** detector — and I like to think I have that. So anytime that any person has started to express feelings of great affection for me, I've thought: "You're a complete idiot. You have NO IDEA WHO I AM. Whatever you like about me is much more about you — and who you think I am — than it is about the real me." - Maura Kelly

If you love yourself deep enough, you will notice people who connect and feel it, fall in love with their own reflection....hehehe

Exactly. I even come to the conclusion that loving someone who you don't know is pretty much impossible. If some stereotypical New Age hippy were to tell me that he/she loves me (without knowing me personally) I'd have a damn hard time taking them seriously.

[akez24]

neglect being waist deep, were in over our heads.

no person has to die for exceptional change to occur.

[naturesflow]

Exactly. I even come to the conclusion that loving someone who you don't know is pretty much impossible. If some stereotypical New Age hippy were to tell me that he/she loves me (without knowing me personally) I'd have a damn hard time taking them seriously.


I love ya man..(joking..lol )


Hey don't confuse open state of being where your feeling your own love as a connection to the world around you as not being serious enough for you. Be grateful someone actually can love without knowing you. Uncondtional love for self doesn't have a problem, with seeing the nature of itself, so don't be fooled your not seen, just your being seen beyond the veil of illusion. Wouldn't you rather the love illusion than hatred?

[Dargor]

I love ya man..(joking..lol )


Hey don't confuse open state of being where your feeling your own love as a connection to the world around you as not being serious enough for you. Be grateful someone actually can love without knowing you. Uncondtional love for self doesn't have a problem, with seeing the nature of itself, so don't be fooled your not seen, just your being seen beyond the veil of illusion. Wouldn't you rather the love illusion than hatred?

lol, no shots fired.

But seriously, I don't believe there is actually one person on Earth who can love me without knowing me. Sure, you can love yourself but that doesn't mean it's connected to everything/everyone else. Perhaps that is only what they believe? I'd call it false beliefs that we convince ourselves to feel good. Pretty much the same thing with love at first sight which we hear all those couples talk about.

To answer your question, no.... Can't entirely say that I'm fond of love illusions.

[akez24]

to kno love, is to kno that no person has to take the suffering route, as jesus did, again. god is powerful and will provide whatever you need anytime.

god- you cant see me, but never overlook me

[davidsun]

Hello akez, sometimes those moments don't happen and in process your correct, those turning points are unknown for each individual unless they are open and share as such. The earth provides, but humans are part of the earth and they as we know don't nurture all beings without greed and lots of other aspects of troubled hearts and troubled minds..The list goes on.
Yah, akez. I love your sayings but I think there are two 'realms' of 'reality' in this regard. Spirit - the spiritual 'Sun' - is all-provident. What 'happens' in the physical realm, wherein the forms of spirits live/act in both cooperative-and-competitive relationship to and with one another is another matter. I think Jesus was referencing this frequently problematic realm when he said "In his world ye shall have tribulation" and the spiritual realm (wherein his consciousness was ensconced) when he said "but fear not I have over come the world" following that.

Such ensconcement, hence complete 'surrender' to 'love', is indeed realizable even while one is 'in' the world. The poetic sayings of Hafiz and Kahlil Gibran come to mind in this regarrd. It sounds to me (from your glorious-as-well! sayings) like you have reached the point of such realization.

Woohoo! :love9:

[davidsun]

Hey Slayer - methinks 'you' take your 'self' and hence 'life' itself way too seriously - meaning 'self'-importantly!

Delight-full 'love' is ever available as an experience and expression to those who 'light'en up :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3SZOesh9Wo

[Dargor]

Hi David. Of course I take myself seriously, I am who I am. Nobody knows me better than myself and what best suits me.

Also, I know it's a big deal to you but the video didn't really convert me into a vegan (if that was the intention).

[davidsun]

Hi David. Of course I take myself seriously, I am who I am. Nobody knows me better than myself and what best suits me.
It's fine (with me) if you want to continue to be that way. I just wanted you to consider the possibility that suach an 'attitude' may be counterproductive when it comes to eperiencing and expressing love in relation to others. Its a complex issue and no one's sense of 'self'-importance is the same as anyone else's, so generalization in ths regard often to don't apply, not 'exactly' that is. But here's a sheep on the subject which contains some ideas in said regard which you may (but also, of course, may not) find worth contemplating:
http://toltecnagual.com/everything-toltec/self-importance

Also, I know it's a big deal to you but the video didn't really convert me into a vegan (if that was the intention).
I wasn;t thinking of veganism when I shared that link. I simply did a search for "loving anumals" and relayed the first video that came up to illustrate the difference bwteen what one might call 'generic' 'love' and what you spoke about, about looking (wanting) to be loved for your 'self' - which is a very self-centered venture and so unlikely to be love-fruitful, IMO - as differentiated from simply being loved and enjoyed and loving and enjoying others for being a lovable and enjoyable aspects of LIFE - as meaningfully shown in the video.

Again, in interpteting my motives for sharing what I share with you, please know that its fine with me if you personally never get to love and enjoy being loved and enjoyed as an aspect of LIFE and never more than superficially love and enjoy others. I ain't invested in others (in the present case, 'you') taking hold of and pulling themselves out of their 'i'solation sink-holes using the ropes (venues?) that I throw their way. That is a function of their response-ability or lack thereof. My sense of my own response-ability, hence my 'investment', only extends to the point of sowing 'seeds' which have the potential to sprout if they land on fertile 'soil': The parable "A sower went out to sow his seed:and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." pertains, I think.

[naturesflow]

Yah, akez. I love your sayings but I think there are two 'realms' of 'reality' in this regard. Spirit - the spiritual 'Sun' - is all-provident. What 'happens' in the physical realm, wherein the forms of spirits live/act in both cooperative-and-competitive relationship to and with one another is another matter. I think Jesus was referencing this frequently problematic realm when he said "In his world ye shall have tribulation" and the spiritual realm (wherein his consciousness was ensconced) when he said "but fear not I have over come the world" following that.

Such ensconcement, hence complete 'surrender' to 'love', is indeed realizable even while one is 'in' the world. The poetic sayings of Hafiz and Kahlil Gibran come to mind in this regarrd. It sounds to me (from your glorious-as-well! sayings) like you have reached the point of such realization.

Woohoo! :love9:

Conditioning/separation at birth whatever you wish to give reason to the way in which people are playing out roles in this earthly realm, do reflect the nature of surrender. How willing we are to "open" to ourselves and others as they present themselves to us. I mean there are good loving people in the world who share openly their nature in this way. But have you ever seen someone who finds it very "DIFFICULT" to receive this love, respond? It can be very noticeable in the body and the containment. It is all well and good, it is just how it is. I understand this difficulty myself. I tend to be someone who surrenders to love in all its forms, but previously I didn't really know what love was (well not in the context of my spirit essence/my joyful being/my soul singing to itself/my playfulness/my thriving alive inner child who along with her thriving alive adult self is at peace with all that. I guess that gives you permission to explore the realm's beyond the human idea of how things "should" be. I don't like boxes, I am quite rebellious. And as a someone who wanted to live fully and not be contained by fear, going deep into my fears actually allowed love to rise up naturally as my true nature.

Love knows no bounds, love is many things, has many ways, love just is, love moves us, love brings alive our passion and our dreams and our hearts sing gloriously in tune with the spirit world. But in the end we could call this love OURSELVES dancing with ourselves but the pleasure soup bowl of consciousness that we are in all ways, could well be lead without name...but love works.

As my beautiful meditation friend said recently. "spread the love" but don't be weird about it! I laughed out loud at her message, because that is right. The world needs love but it needs it in its own way. TO explore safely and not be inundated with a flood of foolishness of an open spirit dancing weirdly and crazily, as slayer might perceive it as.

Jesus rocked his world as I see it.
And the love fest continues...

Fest me if you want David..but ensure you bring your sun into the picture as one, we cant have others think we are flirting in this love fest soup bowl..:wink:

[davidsun]

Fest me if you want David..but ensure you bring your sun into the picture as one, we cant have others think we are flirting in this love fest soup bowl..:wink:
It's transpersonal wink-wink 'I'-flap flirting, one plus one = one, gurl! :biggrin:

P.S. the tilda (~) in your lenz-rama signature-shared link makes it not work.

[davidsun]

It's transpersonal wink-wink 'I'-flap flirting, one plus one = one, gurl! :biggrin:
The 'fest' is not exclusive by any means - the more the merrier! :hug:

[Dargor]

It's fine (with me) if you want to continue to be that way. I just wanted you to consider the possibility that suach an 'attitude' may be counterproductive when it comes to eperiencing and expressing love in relation to others. Its a complex issue and no one's sense of 'self'-importance is the same as anyone else's, so generalization in ths regard often to don't apply, not 'exactly' that is. But here's a sheep on the subject which contains some ideas in said regard which you may (but also, of course, may not) find worth contemplating:
http://toltecnagual.com/everything-toltec/self-importance


I wasn;t thinking of veganism when I shared that link. I simply did a search for "loving anumals" and relayed the first video that came up to illustrate the difference bwteen what one might call 'generic' 'love' and what you spoke about, about looking (wanting) to be loved for your 'self' - which is a very self-centered venture and so unlikely to be love-fruitful, IMO - as differentiated from simply being loved and enjoyed and loving and enjoying others for being a lovable and enjoyable aspects of LIFE - as meaningfully shown in the video.

Again, in interpteting my motives for sharing what I share with you, please know that its fine with me if you personally never get to love and enjoy being loved and enjoyed as an aspect of LIFE and never more than superficially love and enjoy others. I ain't invested in others (in the present case, 'you') taking hold of and pulling themselves out of their 'i'solation sink-holes using the ropes (venues?) that I throw their way. That is a function of their response-ability or lack thereof. My sense of my own response-ability, hence my 'investment', only extends to the point of sowing 'seeds' which have the potential to sprout if they land on fertile 'soil': The parable "A sower went out to sow his seed:and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." pertains, I think.

I don't need to display love to others. I just call it respect, and whether you believe it or not, I happen to get along fine with a lot of people in my waking life who in turn deeply respect me as well. I get invited by friends and even people who I barely know because I come across as likable and treat everyone the same way I want to be treated. Yes, I know by now that you probably have a whole list of ''everything wrong with SlayerOfLight'' reaching from your place all over to Tokyo, but that doesn't really concern me. The way you talk to me in need of being saved by your ''ropes'' sounds no different than a Christian trying to tell me I need Jesus to be saved. Ever heard about something called messiah complex?

[davidsun]

I don't need to display love to others. I just call it respect, and whether you believe it or not, I happen to get along fine with a lot of people in my waking life who in turn deeply respect me as well. I get invited by friends and even people who I barely know because I come across as likable and treat everyone the same way I want to be treated. Yes, I know by now that you probably have a whole list of ''everything wrong with SlayerOfLight'' reaching from your place all over to Tokyo, but that doesn't really concern me. The way you talk to me in need of being saved by your ''ropes'' sounds no different than a Christian trying to tell me I need Jesus to be saved. Ever heard about something called messiah complex?
That's cool with me, as I said. Your entering this thread titled 'love' by way of saying:
Love is nothing but an illusion. I personally have no use for it.
however, struck me as a kind of 'sticking your chin out' invitation to be rope-tangled with (by someone, such as myself, who 'sees' and experiences 'love' as being a an exquisitely real feature of joyful relational Life - as gloriously! IMO displayed in the video).

Obviously, I was mistaken in said regard, not about 'love' not being an illusion, but about your having no 'use' - as you put it - for it.

I hope you can see that any attempt at 'light-slaying' automatically activates a 'light-generating' response from 'light-workers' such as myself. Nothing personal, yiu know. I 'respect' your right to be as you choose. Hopefully you can learn to reciprocate such respect by 'accepting' and 'honoring' my choice to be myself in response to your demeaning (in my eyes) assertion(s) pertaining to 'love' which I happen to regard as being the most fundamental 'value' in Life's scheme.

If it makes you feel 'better' to 'dis' me as being 'messianic' (ugh! I thought my previous response indicated that I wasn't so because I was/am totally content to have people not experience and express 'love') then go for it. Whatever makes you 'happy' - IOW, whatever you 'love' :D to do - dude!

Please just know, so it doesn't come at you as some kind of uninvited intrusion from 'out of the blue', that your attempts to publically be a 'light slayer' will get you some swash-buckling :D 'light displays' in response from 'light shiners' such as myself - as you have once more, gratis!, here.

[naturesflow]

I don't need to display love to others. I just call it respect, and whether you believe it or not, I happen to get along fine with a lot of people in my waking life who in turn deeply respect me as well. I get invited by friends and even people who I barely know because I come across as likable and treat everyone the same way I want to be treated. Yes, I know by now that you probably have a whole list of ''everything wrong with SlayerOfLight'' reaching from your place all over to Tokyo, but that doesn't really concern me. The way you talk to me in need of being saved by your ''ropes'' sounds no different than a Christian trying to tell me I need Jesus to be saved. Ever heard about something called messiah complex?

Respect is part of the soup of love and light, so that works. Respecting in all ways, so I am not saying your being disrespectful in return to David but it borders on pointing with some feelings of not wanting to be moved from where you see yourself. You don't have to be coerced in anyway into the way of others. Your piece is a unique piece that only you need to honour. God if we were all the same, life would be (dull?) interesting..

I prefer uniqueness, come as you are. You sound pretty connected in the way you do things. There is a whole host of ways to be a (I wouldn't use the word nice) a warm connected person.

[naturesflow]

It's transpersonal wink-wink 'I'-flap flirting, one plus one = one, gurl! :biggrin:

P.S. the tilda (~) in your lenz-rama signature-shared link makes it not work.

AS in trans -sensual trans-personal? woo hoo, I am getting more excited here.

The sensory nature of yourself does play out in funny ways sometimes..I notice. Like your so mentioned "tilda in my lenz-rama signature." (gosh that is a mouthful) ...

[Dargor]

That's cool with me, as I said. Your entering this thread titled 'love' by way of saying:

however, struck me as a kind of 'sticking your chin out' invitation to be rope-tangled with (by someone, such as myself, who 'sees' and experiences 'love' as being a an exquisitely real feature of joyful relational Life - as gloriously! IMO displayed in the video).

Obviously, I was mistaken in said regard, not about 'love' not being an illusion, but about your having no 'use' - as you put it - for it.

I hope you can see that any attempt at 'light-slaying' automatically activates a 'light-generating' response from 'light-workers' such as myself. Nothing personal, yiu know. I 'respect' your right to be as you choose. Hopefully you can learn to reciprocate such respect by 'accepting' and 'honoring' my choice to be myself in response to your demeaning (in my eyes) assertion(s) pertaining to 'love' which I happen to regard as being the most fundamental 'value' in Life's scheme.

If it makes you feel 'better' to 'dis' me as being 'messianic' (ugh! I thought my previous response indicated that I wasn't so because I was/am totally content to have people not experience and express 'love') then go for it. Whatever makes you 'happy' - IOW, whatever you 'love' :D to do - dude!

Please just know, so it doesn't come at you as some kind of uninvited intrusion from 'out of the blue', that your attempts to publically be a 'light slayer' will get you some swash-buckling :D 'light displays' in response from 'light shiners' such as myself - as you have once more, gratis!, here.

If you are into love and light stuff that's your call and you are free to share your own perspective with me. But what I don't get is the labeling part. According to you I am not a 'light shiner', that's rather obvious. So do you need some sort of certificate or license for that? Is it an official title handled over to you by a higher authority? I have said that I feel no love to anyone and deem such a feeling as useless because from my personal perspective it is often an illusion, and I am not convinced that one can love anyone without knowing them. So tell me, where exactly do I fail at being a 'light shiner' if I may ask? Not that I consider myself as one to begin with. You will never see me giving myself such high labels around here, neither will you see me calling myself an actual ''light slayer'' or anything like that. Those are your words, not mine.

Also, I am not hellbent on dissing you. Heck, I'm not even interested in winning this swashbuckling as you call it. But I do hope you are aware that you have also brought things up which I totally don't relate to at all, because I believe that I already have mentioned beforehand that my username has nothing to do with me personally? Funny thing is, you see our conversation as a clash between darkness and light (so you say) like the dark side of the force vs the light side of the force, while I don't even see it that way but whatever lol.

[Dargor]

Respect is part of the soup of love and light, so that works. Respecting in all ways, so I am not saying your being disrespectful in return to David but it borders on pointing with some feelings of not wanting to be moved from where you see yourself. You don't have to be coerced in anyway into the way of others. Your piece is a unique piece that only you need to honour. God if we were all the same, life would be (dull?) interesting..

I prefer uniqueness, come as you are. You sound pretty connected in the way you do things. There is a whole host of ways to be a (I wouldn't use the word nice) a warm connected person.

I agree. What I lack in love, I make up for respect, honour, and loyalty. By no means am I perfect but I hope it's safe for me to say without coming across as elevating myself too high, that those are the most positive traits I possess.

[naturesflow]

I agree. What I lack in love, I make up for respect, honour, and loyalty. By no means am I perfect but I hope it's safe for me to say without coming across as elevating myself too high, that those are the most positive traits I possess.

Love to me is doing word. As humans we act in many ways that might come under the heading of LOVE in action. There is not one way of being. It
's unique to you as you are being your unique self.

In saying this, the potential is there for anyone to explore anything they want in connection to themselves in their uniqueness.

Over the top loving people have lessons to learn about personal space and being aware of others as they are and need.

My loving self is more attuned in this way.

I be myself, I let others be themselves. If I don't I am not honouring myself. Our needs, process and experience is unique to each of us, so it pays to listen to others just as closely as you listen to your own needs.

[davidsun]

If you are into love and light stuff that's your call and you are free to share your own perspective with me. But what I don't get is the labeling part.
Light-FLASH: All words are symbols, i.e. labels, for something - for something that means something to someone - which something may be image-in-ed to be con-sense-ually 'real' or not.

You labeled me, or my behavior in relation to you, as 'messianic'. I hope my 'light'-pointing that out helps you 'get' the function of said labeling behavior - it's a means of communicating what you are thinking and feeling and believing - because you 'use' it too! Though you apparently wish to 'hide' the latter fact from yourself, presumably because you 'judge' it to be a 'bad' thing; so you just project such 'badness' onto others, in this case 'me'. :biggrin:

IMO, I provide (gratis! lol) a lot of 'clues' to help others figure out the meaning(s) (sometimes there are multiple ones! :icon_eek: ) of the labels I use in my attempts to share what I mean.

There's lots to play with in my verbiage - if you wish to either seriously (i.e. 'self'-importantly) or 'light':wink:heartedly play with my meanings.

I love and enjoy playing with the possible meanings (one can never be sure one is 'getting' them 'right'!) of people's communications. Hence me frequent woohoo-ings. :biggrin: Part of my de'light' in doing so also involves generating a 'light'-show-n-tell for others to also love and enjoy particpating in if they wish to do so.

I consider myself a cirque-du-soleil (the latter word references in the 'sun' part of my screen name :biggrin: ) kind of communicational 'adept'. If you don't enjoy playing with me, that's fine. Just ignore my verbal performances. Alternatively, you always have the option to pick up your marbles and go wherever else you wish to go.

[Dargor]

Light-FLASH: All words are symbols, i.e. labels, for something - for something that means something to someone - which something may be image-in-ed to be con-sense-ually 'real' or not.

You labeled me, or my behavior in relation to you, as 'messianic'. I hope my 'light'-pointing that out helps you 'get' the function of said labeling behavior - it's a means of communicating what you are thinking and feeling and believing - because you 'use' it too! Though you apparently wish to 'hide' the latter fact from yourself, presumably because you 'judge' it to be a 'bad' thing; so you just project such 'badness' onto others, in this case 'me'. :biggrin:

IMO, I provide (gratis! lol) a lot of 'clues' to help others figure out the meaning(s) (sometimes there are multiple ones! :icon_eek: ) of the labels I use in my attempts to share what I mean.

There's lots to play with in my verbiage - if you wish to either seriously (i.e. 'self'-importantly) or 'light':wink:heartedly play with my meanings.

I love and enjoy playing with the possible meanings (one can never be sure one is 'getting' them 'right'!) of people's communications. Hence me frequent woohoo-ings. :biggrin: Part of my de'light' in doing so also involves generating a 'light'-show-n-tell for others to also love and enjoy particpating in if they wish to do so.

I consider myself a cirque-du-soleil (the latter word references in the 'sun' part of my screen name :biggrin: ) kind of communicational 'adept'. If you don't enjoy playing with me, that's fine. Just ignore my verbal performances. Alternatively, you always have the option to pick up your marbles and go wherever else you wish to go.

No, It's not about who started labeling first and in all honesty I don't really mind you labeling me or yourself, the only thing I said is that I don't get it at your part. I asked you, how do I fail at being a lightshiner and what are the requirements for it? You label me as a light slayer, but explain to me why you gave me that label? Also, I must add that your ''woohoo-ings'' are rather confusing so I would appreciate it if you tune it down a little bit in your next post. We are two adults having a conversation through the internet, not a bunch of little children 'playing' with each other.

[davidsun]

You label me as a light slayer, but explain to me why you gave me that label?
Though you disclaim that it has any significance, the fact is that you chose that label for yourself (your screen name). You say that you picked it out for no particular reason other than it came into the filed of your attention, like pulling a piece of already used clothing in a thrift store and putting it on because you just needed 'something' to wear. I regard all 'choices' as having significance in terms of indicating something about the person making them, even apparently accidental ones. Look up what's called a Freudian 'slip' if you no idea about how someone who as a background in te field of psychology and/or spirituality (wherein inner 'spirit' is believed to be 'fate'-determining) would regard such choice on your part as being 'revealing' of the 'gestalt' of your psychospiritual (i.e. soul) constellation.

Besides the theory I subscribe to about 'choices' never being completely accidental/insignificant, I also have evidence: the evidence that you generally have a negative attitude towards Life and Living - like, for just one recent instance, your choosing to label :biggrin: 'love' to be an 'illusion' and 'trash' (i.e. verbally 'slay' its value) it as having no 'use' for you.

You may not agree with and you may also dislike my 'seeing' you that way, but that is the way I 'see' you. I hope what I have said helps you to understand how and why someone such as myself came to 'see' you that way. I also hope your sense of harrumph! 'self'-importance can make room in your life for meaningful interaction with someone who doesn't put you on the 'kingly' pedestal (throne?) you place yourself on and apparently think others should 'accede' to by placing you on said pedestal/throne in their world-view. As far as I am concerned you are very negative, and therefore inclined to 'put down' the views of others which don't accord with yours, as well as to pejoratively reject the 'light' of such persons. The fact is that though I respect your 'right' to choose to be as you choose, my choice is to oppose and attempt to unseat 'negativity' in my world-context, and if I can't, then at least 'use' it as an example to point out to others what I think it would 'better' not to be like. I do not expect you to like (or honor!) such choice on my part.

Getting back to your 'SlayerOfLight' nom de pen, please know that I would have the same kind of understanding and response to someone who chose a swastika for his or her forum-avatar 'icon', this even if he/she said they did not mean anything by making and brandishing such choice, that it was just something which struck them as a reasonably 'usable' symbol for forum-social purposes.

Also, I must add that your ''woohoo-ings'' are rather confusing so I would appreciate it if you tune it down a little bit in your next post. We are two adults having a conversation through the internet, not a bunch of little children 'playing' with each other.
Sorry, but I must decline your request. This is how I work-play on the internet. It is in line with the core of my deeply thought out and lovingly :wink: chosen philosophy, as expressed in sayings such as "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me." (Matthew 18)

Please note, this is just one of many wisdom-teaching 'sayings' which I subscribe to: I consider myself just as much a humanist, as a Hindu or Christian. Here's another example of such wisdom (from Hafiz, 1320-1389):

"Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does
Anything weird,
But the God who knows only 4 words
And keeps repeating them, saying:
'Come Dance with Me.'
Come Dance."

I asked you, how do I fail at being a lightshiner and what are the requirements for it?
I cannot meaningfully convey an answer to that to one who is (spiritually) 'blind' to (spiritual) 'light'. Same applies to the Q of how could/would one 'tell' a 'blind' person what the color 'red' really is? I gave you the link to a video which showed (one aspect at least of) what 'love' is in action. You totally missed the 'pointed' therein.

I have already told you that I think 'self'-importance is counterproductive when it comes to realizing/actualizing, i.e. experiencing and expressing, spiritual 'love' and 'light' and given you a link to what I think is 'wise' exposition on the 'issue' of 'self'-importance. You have ignored that and even more strongly asserted your 'self'-importance (in relation to me at least) since I shared that with you.

That is clearly your choice - a LOVE-rejecting one on my opinion (P.S. one way to 'slay' something in effect is to banish it from one's world).

I confess I do not at all like that choice of yours. However, I recognize and respect the fact that you are the only meaningful determiner of your own fate and that I can't change that. Also, FYI, I actually don't want to do so, Bro! :biggrin: Even if I could, that would be 'wrongy' 'stealing' what belongs to you spiritually speaking.

[freejoe]

thought love energy flow trough you a natural thing for souls to experience

[sentient]

*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7GtZpQVU-Y

*

[naturesflow]

*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7GtZpQVU-Y

*

That is neat and makes perfect sense.

I need to read that book.

[7luminaries]

Please note, this is just one of many wisdom-teaching 'sayings' which I subscribe to: I consider myself just as much a humanist, as a Hindu or Christian. Here's another example of such wisdom (from Hafiz, 1320-1389):

"Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does
Anything weird,
But the God who knows only 4 words
And keeps repeating them, saying:
'Come Dance with Me.'
Come Dance."

Nice and thanks for sharing...
Can't go wrong with a drunken mystic :D

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Dargor]

Though you disclaim that it has any significance, the fact is that you chose that label for yourself (your screen name). You say that you picked it out for no particular reason other than it came into the filed of your attention, like pulling a piece of already used clothing in a thrift store and putting it on because you just needed 'something' to wear. I regard all 'choices' as having significance in terms of indicating something about the person making them, even apparently accidental ones. Look up what's called a Freudian 'slip' if you no idea about how someone who as a background in te field of psychology and/or spirituality (wherein inner 'spirit' is believed to be 'fate'-determining) would regard such choice on your part as being 'revealing' of the 'gestalt' of your psychospiritual (i.e. soul) constellation.

I didn't choose any label for myself at all. I'm not going to bother waste time and energy anymore into trying to convince you otherwise, David. I have never refered to myself as anything at all from the moment I'm here. My username came to my realisation while I was listening to music and just so much happened to stumble upon a song with the same title. For the better, my username is NOT supposed to be taken seriously at all.

Besides the theory I subscribe to about 'choices' never being completely accidental/insignificant, I also have evidence: the evidence that you generally have a negative attitude towards Life and Living - like, for just one recent instance, your choosing to label 'love' to be an 'illusion' and 'trash' (i.e. verbally 'slay' its value) it as having no 'use' for you.

You may not agree with and you may also dislike my 'seeing' you that way, but that is the way I 'see' you. I hope what I have said helps you to understand how and why someone such as myself came to 'see' you that way. I also hope your sense of harrumph! 'self'-importance can make room in your life for meaningful interaction with someone who doesn't put you on the 'kingly' pedestal (throne?) you place yourself on and apparently think others should 'accede' to by placing you on said pedestal/throne in their world-view. As far as I am concerned you are very negative, and therefore inclined to 'put down' the views of others which don't accord with yours, as well as to pejoratively reject the 'light' of such persons. The fact is that though I respect your 'right' to choose to be as you choose, my choice is to oppose and attempt to unseat 'negativity' in my world-context, and if I can't, then at least 'use' it as an example to point out to others what I think it would 'better' not to be like. I do not expect you to like (or honor!) such choice on my part.

Getting back to your 'SlayerOfLight' nom de pen, please know that I would have the same kind of understanding and response to someone who chose a swastika for his or her forum-avatar 'icon', this even if he/she said they did not mean anything by making and brandishing such choice, that it was just something which struck them as a reasonably 'usable' symbol for forum-social purposes.

I have negative views on life, but that's the way I am created. I did not chose my views, rather they are shaped by the events life pulled me through. Life is like a movie, you watch and to a point 'experience' it yourself, and then you either have a positive or a negative view based on what the movie has shown you. But what you don't realise, by branding me as 'negative' while you have no clue how hard I am fighting in my daily life to be positive, you are being negative yourself as well. Your way of thinking appears to be so limited to your own fantasy world that you see nothing except what you want to see, and you don't realise that your so-called 'light' you claim to emit is not helping me. You may not believe me and that's fine, but I've met people here who did a way better job on that part than you. Clearly you want me to understand you, but you don't want to understand me. This is the way I came to see you through our interactions.

Also, what's this whole self-importance thing about? I don't view myself as important. In fact, I am not important at all and my existence is utterly meaningless and unnecessary. You may be a psychologist or whatever, but clearly this may be a sign that it is time for you to retire. I see no motivation to place myself or have others place me on said throne, so it's all yours if you want it. I do have an ego, but more in the sense of ''this is who I am'' rather than elevating myself above others, as I don't force anyone to agree with me and I don't have any intention of putting anyone down. I said in this thread that love is an illusion and to me that is the truth. Instead of having a go against it (which you have the right to do of course) it would be wiser for you to ask questions such as 'why' instead of ditching out labels. You view yourself as some holy paladin warrior, but rather you are hellbent on crusading against those who have opposite views and brand them as a threat against national security. Metaphorically you claim to fight against darkness, but the only thing you know is light. You cannot defeat what you have no knowledge of. You too are spreading negativity with your ''don't be like that guy'' attitude, because you don't know my positive traits, which in fact could be very beneficial to others.

To me, positivity and negativity don't exist. Someone who would fit in that little fantasy world of yours may be a rotten soul who goes over corpses to save his own skin and lets others down, while someone with a negative attitude can be a loyal friend who would be ready to help you when you need him. Personally, I find your finger-pointing attitude of ''don't be that'' to be extremely arrogant and not inspiring at all. What matters not isn't if someone is positive or negative on life, but how they treat others. I treat others with respect in my daily life, help my friends in need and have no qualms with even helping strangers, and stick to my own personal code of always returning favors. Ok, I may still not be close to being as 'perfect' as you are but hey at least I'm trying, gotta give me that one.

Sorry, but I must decline your request. This is how I work-play on the internet. It is in line with the core of my deeply thought out and lovingly chosen philosophy, as expressed in sayings such as "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me." (Matthew 18)


Sure, then be a child for all you want. I am not interested in lowering myself to that stage, so please I beg you, don't blame me if I end up even more confused with your whoo-hoo nonsense than I already am.

I cannot meaningfully convey an answer to that to one who is (spiritually) 'blind' to (spiritual) 'light'. Same applies to the Q of how could/would one 'tell' a 'blind' person what the color 'red' really is? I gave you the link to a video which showed (one aspect at least of) what 'love' is in action. You totally missed the 'pointed' therein.

I have already told you that I think 'self'-importance is counterproductive when it comes to realizing/actualizing, i.e. experiencing and expressing, spiritual 'love' and 'light' and given you a link to what I think is 'wise' exposition on the 'issue' of 'self'-importance. You have ignored that and even more strongly asserted your 'self'-importance (in relation to me at least) since I shared that with you.

That is clearly your choice - a LOVE-rejecting one on my opinion (P.S. one way to 'slay' something in effect is to banish it from one's world).

I confess I do not at all like that choice of yours. However, I recognize and respect the fact that you are the only meaningful determiner of your own fate and that I can't change that. Also, FYI, I actually don't want to do so, Bro! Even if I could, that would be 'wrongy' 'stealing' what belongs to you spiritually speaking.

No... You cannot convey a meaningful, valid, and concrete answer because there simply is none that you can think of. What you just said, about being blind, the same applies to you. You are being blinded by your own holy light so everything what I told you in this post is like trying to explain how turbine engines work to someone who isn't an engineer.

[blossomingtree]

Hi SlayerofLight,

For what it's worth, I really admire and respect your words, honesty and groundedness. I think you have a very strong basis to move forward on in whatever you are interested in, personally speaking.

Also, I think you are fully rational and sane to question if someone can truly love another without knowing them (or in some cases, knowing :smile: )

It's a really, really worthwhile inquiry.

I can share with you my perspective (with the caveat that I haven't read the thread in full) - when people (not on this forum necessarily, but genuine spiritual adepts) use a word like "love" it is typically charged/translated by us with the connotations of normal usage. Typically, love is conditioned and dependent, it's often romantic as well. Yet of course over 50% of marriages end in divorce and we all know what we might love one day (ice cream/rock bands!) might not be the same the next.

I don't think that (true) spiritual adepts are using the word "love" in the same way.

But it doesn't really matter either, in my opinion. Use what is relevant and useful to you now. If and as things evolve, things take on a different meaning later on. Just stay true to yourself and don't be afraid of asking. You are supported.

BT

[blossomingtree]

to kno love, is to kno that no person has to take the suffering route, as jesus did, again. god is powerful and will provide whatever you need anytime.

god- you cant see me, but never overlook me

Thanks. ..

[Dargor]

Hi SlayerofLight,

For what it's worth, I really admire and respect your words, honesty and groundedness. I think you have a very strong basis to move forward on in whatever you are interested in, personally speaking.

Also, I think you are fully rational and sane to question if someone can truly love another without knowing them (or in some cases, knowing :smile: )

It's a really, really worthwhile inquiry.

I can share with you my perspective (with the caveat that I haven't read the thread in full) - when people (not on this forum necessarily, but genuine spiritual adepts) use a word like "love" it is typically charged/translated by us with the connotations of normal usage. Typically, love is conditioned and dependent, it's often romantic as well. Yet of course over 50% of marriages end in divorce and we all know what we might love one day (ice cream/rock bands!) might not be the same the next.

I don't think that (true) spiritual adepts are using the word "love" in the same way.

But it doesn't really matter either, in my opinion. Use what is relevant and useful to you now. If and as things evolve, things take on a different meaning later on. Just stay true to yourself and don't be afraid of asking. You are supported.

BT

Hi Blossomingtree, thanks for your kind words and understanding.

You know, back when I was still a fundamental Christian I was commanded to love God above everyone and everything else yet I always struggled with loving God and finding motivation to devote my life to him, because I have never personally seen him or felt him in my life. This is one of the factors that drove me to ask the question how much truth there is into that New Age kind of love. I have never experienced any kind of love in my entire life before other than parental love (which of course is dfferent) but never romantic love or spiritual love, so to me it's not whort the effort to embrace it. Although someone here may disagree, I think I can still be a decent guy in my own 'alternative' way without being active in spiritual love or how you call it.

[blossomingtree]

I understand. I was (also) someone who couldn't and wouldn't believe something just because someone told me to or told me it was true. I personally think that honesty is important. Many of (us :D ) spiritual types talk easily but how many people can really transform themselves body/mind/spirit - heart. I'm glad that you are honest with yourself and your efforts are much appreciated, SlayerofLight.

BT

[davidsun]

I have negative views on life, but that's the way I am created. I did not[/i] choose my views, rather they are shaped by the events life pulled me through. Life is like a movie, you watch and to a point 'experience' it yourself, and then you either have a positive or a negative view based on what the movie has shown you.
Who or what ‘chose’ to have your views and attitudes and consequently your values, judgments and behaviors then? Are you implying that 'you' are no more than an 'accident'? :icon_eek:

Let me try my hand at parabolic* exposition to illustrate how and why I have come to believe that souls, including your 'grasshopper' :D one, do have the capacity, i.e. the response-ability, to choose how they will be and thus determine their own ‘fate’ in terms of the quality of their interpersonal engagements (or disengagements).

[* From Merriam Webster’s: parabolic = “1: expressed by or being a parable : allegorical.”]

Three siblings were born to the same, in some ways genuinely loving and wise but in other ways not, parents in the context of a socio-ecological milieu which was to some degree ‘fairly’ accommodating but in other ways quite harsh and unjust. One became embroiled in anger and hate and ended up being sentenced to life in prison as a result of brutally murdering someone who became the focus of his loathing. One became a [u]negatively criticizing, love-poo-pooing party-pooper, who lived his whole life either both tacitly and explicitly complaining that others didn’t really know and care about him, his implicitly ‘demanding’ complaints basically just serving to turn others ‘off’ and leave him to ‘wallow’ in his own self-righteous self-commiserating excrement. The third, who realized and took to heart the fact that others also ‘suffered’ from ‘unhappiness’ in a myriad ways, some even more so than he, empathetically decided that, even if he couldn’t do more to change things than that, it would be better (may be even best!) to “light a single candle” (as the saying goes) than “sit and curse/complain about the ‘darkness’” (again, as the saying goes). So he devoted himself to helping others have a better quality of life in whatever ways he could, as well as loved and took care of himself to the best of his ability so he could be maximally effective in so loving and caring for others.

The three died at some point, just as we all will. Here are parabolic versions of conversations they had with their Spirit Guides (counselors?) who they met at the respective ‘gateways’ to their Spirit (Family) Groups’ locales in the Spirit Realm:

The murderous sibling said, “I really let my nasty emotions get the better of me and so totally blew it! Well not totally. Thankfully, I was visited in prison this goofy Bible-believing Christian who told me that Jesus ‘loved’ me even though I had been so hateful and hurtful in relation to others. I didn’t believe anyone else could really know what I had felt and, even if they did, could really be as loving and forgiving as that, but I was so touched by the fellow's apparently genuine desire that what he thought of as my soul would not roast and burn in ‘hell’ as exhibited by his commitment to come and keep company with wretches such as myself, that I softened and became more humbly appreciative of positive aspects of The Flow of Life. So here I am, truly regretful but grateful that I am still alive (in spirit), and spiritually wish to do ‘better’ in my next life. I really want to mature and become even more truly loving than that goofy narrow-belief-bound Christian fellow, both hope and believe that I will be so someday, though who knows how many lives the process may take?

The complaining, lamenting that he had no choice and continuing to poo-poo others as being just as bad or worse than him, sibling made utterances (this time in response to what his Spirit Guides were saying to him) such as : “But what you don't realise, by branding me as 'negative' while you have no clue how hard I am fighting in my daily life to be positive, you are being negative yourself as well. Your way of thinking appears to be so limited to your own fantasy world that you see nothing except what you want to see, and you don't realise that your so-called 'light' you claim to emit is not helping me. You may not believe me and that's fine, but I've met people [on earth] who did a way better job on that part than you. Clearly you want me to understand you, but you don't want to understand me. This is the way I came to see you through our interactions.”

The sibling who became more saintly said things like, “Whew that was hard, sometimes I felt so heavy and my mood sank so low I just wanted to quit and die! I am glad I didn’t, however, because I see and feel good about the fact that I really made a positive difference in the lives of others. I couldn’t have done it without your ‘invisible’ support which I couldn’t/wouldn’t have felt/experienced if I didn’t believe in its infinite presence, however. Thank God for that! I’ll rest and get ready to go back and do more ‘light’ work if that’s what we agree would be best for my own and other souls’ further development. But I sure look forward to becoming and being a Spirit Guide like you and hope that what’s next in Life’s card deck for me!

Ok, I may still not be close to being as 'perfect' as you are but hey at least I'm trying, gotta give me that one.
Believe it or not, I think such pretending to be an ‘honest’ adult childishness is funny as hell!

Sure, then be a child for all you want. I am not interested in lowering myself to that stage, so please I beg you, don't blame me if I end up even more confused with your whoo-hoo nonsense than I already am.
Read this over, Bro. This is the presently real, other-blaming, personal response-ability denying and rejecting ‘you’ machinating! :biggrin:

No... You cannot convey a meaningful, valid, and concrete answer because there simply is none that you can think of. What you just said, about being blind, the same applies to you. You are being blinded by your own holy light so everything what I told you in this post is like trying to explain how turbine engines work to someone who isn't an engineer.
One thing I can truly say I like about and think bodes well for 'you', o' your-arms-r-too-short-to-box-with-‘god’! ‘slayer’, is your ‘grasshopper’ SPUNK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbNCBVzPYak

[davidsun]

The text that follows was originally falsley billed a a letter (about love) from Einstein to his daughter (for details pertaining to its history see https://blogs.worldbank.org/publicsphere/1-2016-neglected-universal-force-peace-and-stability-love), presumably the motive for such 'fraud' being to get people who otherwise might not do so to it greater credence and so take it more seriously. I think the possible validity and applicability of what it actually says is well worth wholeheartedly considering and open-mindedly contemplating nevertheless. Enjoy!


"… When I proposed the theory of relativity, very few understood me, and what I will reveal now to transmit to mankind will also collide with the misunderstanding and prejudice in the world.

I ask you to guard the letters as long as necessary, years, decades, until society is advanced enough to accept what I will explain below.

There is an extremely powerful force that, so far, science has not found a formal explanation to. It is a force that includes and governs all others, and is even behind any phenomenon operating in the universe and has not yet been identified by us.

This universal force is LOVE.

When scientists looked for a unified theory of the universe they forgot the most powerful unseen force.

Love is Light that enlightens those who give and receive it.

Love is gravity, because it makes some people feel attracted to others.

Love is power, because it multiplies the best we have, and allows humanity not to be extinguished in their blind selfishness. Love unfolds and reveals.

For love we live and die.

Love is God and God is Love.

This force explains everything and gives meaning to life. This is the variable that we have ignored for too long, maybe because we are afraid of love because it is the only energy in the universe that man has not learned to drive at will.

To give visibility to love, I made a simple substitution in my most famous equation.

If instead of E = mc2, we accept that the energy to heal the world can be obtained through love multiplied by the speed of light squared, we arrive at the conclusion that love is the most powerful force there is, because it has no limits.

After the failure of humanity in the use and control of the other forces of the universe that have turned against us, it is urgent that we nourish ourselves with another kind of energy…

If we want our species to survive, if we are to find meaning in life, if we want to save the world and every sentient being that inhabits it, love is the one and only answer.

Perhaps we are not yet ready to make a bomb of love, a device powerful enough to entirely destroy the hate, selfishness and greed that devastate the planet.

However, each individual carries within them a small but powerful generator of love whose energy is waiting to be released.

When we learn to give and receive this universal energy, dear Lieserl, we will have affirmed that love conquers all, is able to transcend everything and anything, because love is the quintessence of life.

I deeply regret not having been able to express what is in my heart, which has quietly beaten for you all my life. Maybe it’s too late to apologize, but as time is relative, I need to tell you that I love you and thanks to you I have reached the ultimate answer! …"

:love9:

[davidsun]

A video demonstration of what real 'love' can really do! That is, for anyone who is capable of seeing and feeling such things and willing to do so. As hitherto dramatically displayed in this thread, not everyone necessarily is (at least, not at any given point in time). :icon_eek:

https://www.thedodo.com/videos/on-the-farm/sick-pig-parents-amazing-rescue

(P.S. you might have to click the sound icon at the bottom right to turn the sound 'on').

[davidsun]

A video demonstration of what real 'love' can really do! That is, for anyone who is capable of seeing and feeling such things and willing to do so. As hitherto dramatically displayed in this thread, not everyone necessarily is (at least, not at any given point in time). :icon_eek:

https://www.thedodo.com/videos/on-the-farm/sick-pig-parents-amazing-rescue

(P.S. you might have to click the sound icon at the bottom right to turn the sound 'on').
P.S. To those who wish to grok the BIG 'picture'. As the following quote indicates, the insensitivity and blindness (to love) phenom was also part and parcel of the 'stream' of Life that was going on in Jesus' time, and will surely also be so in times yet to come:

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matthew 13)

However, the kind of 'ground' one is dealing with is never a (completely) known factor, or even when it is known to be what it is, a completely 'done' deal. In the latter case, even the 'hard'est surfaces can/may 'crack' open when 'banged' on. :smile: You never know what might happen then. It all depends on what's really underneath. :icon_scratch:

[Dargor]

Who or what ‘chose’ to have your views and attitudes and consequently your values, judgments and behaviors then? Are you implying that 'you' are no more than an 'accident'? :icon_eek

Nobody chose anything. If my experiences in life were more positive and if my future wasn't blown to hell then things didn't have to be this way. If my life is part of a scheme by a greater intelligence, then yes my life is no more but an accident.

Believe it or not, I think such pretending to be an ‘honest’ adult childishness is funny as hell!

Believe it or not, but the only one who is being childish here is you with your load of horsepoo. And trust me at this one, it's not even close to being funny.

One thing I can truly say I like about and think bodes well for 'you', o' your-arms-r-too-short-to-box-with-‘god’! ‘slayer’, is your ‘grasshopper’ SPUNK!

I'd like to think if that was you in that scene you'd end up in the intensive care because your level of arrogance is only matched by your presumptuous nature.

[blossomingtree]

Believe it or not, I think such pretending to be an ‘honest’ adult childishness is funny as hell!


Read this over, Bro. This is the presently real, other-blaming, personal response-ability denying and rejecting ‘you’ machinating! :biggrin:


One thing I can truly say I like about and think bodes well for 'you', o' your-arms-r-too-short-to-box-with-‘god’! ‘slayer’, is your ‘grasshopper’ SPUNK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbNCBVzPYak

David:

Have you considered that your posts and approach are a form of bullying? I know you have "confidence" in your Rpproach - but when someone asks you to stop, and they are doing their best, perhaps you might have the courtesy to do so in the name of Lurv.

BT

[davidsun]

David: Have you considered that your posts and approach are a form of bullying? I know you have "confidence" in your Rpproach - but when someone asks you to stop, and they are doing their best, perhaps you might have the courtesy to do so in the name of Lurv.
BT
Bias is such a curious thing. Standing up to a person to resist and shine a light on someone who makes self-serving proclamations and trashes the truth to (hopefully) show him and everyone else what he is really doing may indeed be seen as an unfair/biased/illegitimate 'attack' on said person. Today's political scene is full of such stuff.

I respect the fact that you think that just being universally (in the sense of equally) courteously honoring of others' proclamations and choices regardless of their perceived merits or demerits is a 'better' - in terms of Life-serving - way of being. (Courteous as in 'courting'?)

But as you might have guessed I continue to disagree with you and so rejection such proposition and the 'approach' thereby advocated.

All 'Slayer' :rolleyes: has to do for me to stop publicly addressing him (by way of counter-assertive response - I didn't go 'after' him in his thread you may have noticed - a real 'bully' would have, I think) is to stop attempting to 'trash' what I and others of my ilk are putting forth with positive purpose in heart and mind where we do so).

P.S. for your edification, BT: 'Tough love' is called 'tough' for a reason. Recipients thereof and 'sympathy'izers and 'pity-sorrow' feelers for such, of course, won't 'like' it. But that doesn't ipso facto make it not 'loving'. I hope you one day 'see' that its just a 'tough' way of 'loving', as in not 'coddling'.

Treating people as actually being response-able or at least potentially so (even if, or especially when!, they proclaim that they are not!) does them a 'favor', IMO. Projecting 'excuses' onto them or 'buying' (into) the 'excuses' they purvey does the opposite, by enable-ing them to continue to be irresponsible, and thereby helps 'breed' (nurture?) social 'monsters' in effect. Obviously, no issue is ever just black or white. One shouldn't hold a two-year old 'accountable' for not tying his shoelaces, for instance. But neither should parents 'spoil' their children (or spouses 'spoil' their spouses, by regarding and calling them 'baby', etc., or family members and friends 'spoil' other family members and friends) by just indulging them with whatever makes them 'especially' happy, vicariously indulging their own (unfulfilled!) desires in the process.

[7luminaries]

Hi Blossomingtree, thanks for your kind words and understanding.

You know, back when I was still a fundamental Christian I was commanded to love God above everyone and everything else yet I always struggled with loving God and finding motivation to devote my life to him, because I have never personally seen him or felt him in my life. This is one of the factors that drove me to ask the question how much truth there is into that New Age kind of love.

I have never experienced any kind of love in my entire life before other than parental love (which of course is dfferent) but never romantic love or spiritual love, so to me it's not whort the effort to embrace it.

Although someone here may disagree, I think I can still be a decent guy in my own 'alternative' way without being active in spiritual love or how you call it.

Slayer, hello there.
I saw this one thing and I think it is probably much more common than not to have NOT experienced authentic love in partnership relationship. I think it's a near- universal experience. In the developing world, it's been based on arrangement and utility (marriage arranged, women gives sex, bears kids, and man protects, no love, the end).

In the developed world, it's devolved to another sort of even baser, coarser sort of barter system (man demands sex up front without love, woman pimps herself out for use and exploitation, man increasingly also gets used and abused by cold manipulators as there is NO foundational love in this game where sex comes first...and somewhere in there kids and maybe marriage occur for some). Women become increasingly like men in their awareness that sex is not love, but unlike men this completely turns off women to sex when they are not touched by a hand that loves them. In both cases, folks suffer when sex is cold and loveless, and men need to stop kidding themselves that routinely demanding sex ASAP, after a handful of dates, no exceptions, full stop, is "working for them" in this scenario. As opposed to actually taking time and enjoying getting to know and love someone just as they are. It's no surprise most "relationships" and at least half of all marriages are utter rubbish. Our system, I'm sad to say, is thus far no real improvement on the rubbish of history.

I have been in a few serious relationships and one marriage before I had my child, but I wouldn't say I was authentically loved in any of them. Of course it was all superficial and limited and conditional. There may have been deeper feelings involved, sure, but did they actively seek my highest good no matter what, and love me first and foremost just as a person and as a friend? No.

Did they want my happiness even if it meant I was not with them? Maybe, but probably not. Did they resent me and actively seek to tear me down if I disagreed or had an issue? Yes, and yes.

Did they wish me harm and ill intent after we parted? I hope not, but maybe or likely so. Were they kind or forgiving? Somewhat, depending on the person. I suppose that varied but kindness was not a consistent trait, just for a few.

My ex was not unkind but if in his cups he often wasn't kind either...moody, self-absorbed, unavailable, didn't fight fair. The usual stuff. Is any of this authentic love? LOL....no.

And frankly, seeking authentic love in partnership is not going to be a realistic goal for many. In fact, what's on offer is so far from authentic love in so many cases as to render it largely unpalatable for many.

This is tragically par for the course but it's a simple reflection of where humanity at present is at...we are on a backslide, a detour in the wrong direction. Toward self-service and exploitation of others and away from authentic love of one another as people and as beloved friends.

Which is why I have not been in more than a few relationships since having my child and my deeper awakening to the nature of authentic love -- which seeks your highest good equally to that of the other(s) and their highest good, equally to your own. Any casual dating pretty much automatically is not ever going to approach authentic love, and it's just not appealing.
I see the pendulum changing slowly. If you and other gents can own your game long enough to get to know and love women as people and as friends, then you can stay strong and get clean. This critical step will allow you to choose from strength and love, and not from desperation and addiction.
You will be able to bypass and weed out the borderlines and predators who put empty sex out there like crack, to manipulate and misdirect you and other men. You can avoid those who crassly abuse your heart and your soul and treat you like a mindless animal.

You mentioned having experienced the authentic love of your parents. You are very lucky here...nurture these relationships. And to this authentic love, you can add the authentic love of beloved friends and family. You can join groups and communities to share and give back, and you can experience the authentic love of community here as well. Nurturing the authentic love that you can share in your life right now, with folks who love you AS YOU ARE and for no other reason, will allow you to recognise the spiritual and emotional maturity of those others (including those women) who will treat you with kindness and respect.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

Hi Blossomingtree, thanks for your kind words and understanding.

You know, back when I was still a fundamental Christian I was commanded to love God above everyone and everything else yet I always struggled with loving God and finding motivation to devote my life to him, because I have never personally seen him or felt him in my life. This is one of the factors that drove me to ask the question how much truth there is into that New Age kind of love.

I have never experienced any kind of love in my entire life before other than parental love (which of course is dfferent) but never romantic love or spiritual love, so to me it's not whort the effort to embrace it.

Although someone here may disagree, I think I can still be a decent guy in my own 'alternative' way without being active in spiritual love or how you call it.

Slayer, hello there.
I saw this one thing and I think it is probably much more common than not, to NOT have experienced authentic love in partnership. It's never been a part of male-female partnerships historically and we are having to carve out a new kind of partnership relationship for humanity, going forward. One that IS based on authentic love. Historically and in the developing world, partnerships were arranged and authentic love had nothing to do with it. In the modern world, partnerships have devolved into a crass and coarse sort based on sex and physicality, where sex is demanded/required after a few dates but once again authentic love or even like has nothing to do with it and the exchange devolves into one or both parties crassly manipulating and exploiting one another, either by conscious intent or simply in the sheer act of participating in this sort of impersonal, cold, and degrading "relationship".

This sick and toxic paradigm (modern "mainstream" relationship culture) is really just men treating women like prostitutes after a few preliminaries to bolster the pretense that this is not just free prostitution, whilst men figure out when it is that the naïve and gullible women are "up for" being road-tested. Most women have been really dense and slow here, because we don't crave cold straight-up sex...but most have slowly caught on that since there is clearly no love yet after a few dates (or even true like), the men are (ding ding ding) just using them like prostitutes. However, more and more, this culture of exploitation has and will only continue to breed a cadre of female predators, who coldly exploit the men in turn by luring them with cold, loveless, impersonal sex, like crack, and if men continue to play the predator and go for the easy lay then they too will increasingly feel the burn of being used and abused.

The truth is, no one can play this game of human connection and human relationship without their honest engagement and their authentic love and presence. To engage with another emotionally and physically without your full and honest presence and your genuine heart (wherever it stands, whether in friendship or partnership) is a recipe for disaster. There simply are no short cuts and the fact is many folks are simply lazy, addicted, and/or stubborn or selfish, and they are very slow to learn this simple truth. The present day is such a sad commentary on our society, and on the character and corruptibility of humanity...that I could cry.

I have been in a few serious relationships and one marriage before I had my child, but I wouldn't say I was authentically loved in any of them. Of course it was superficial and limited and conditional, even if I didn't want to recognise that truth in its fullness. There may have been deeper feelings involved, sure, but did they actively seek my highest good no matter what, and love me first and foremost just as a person and as a friend? No.

Did they want my happiness even if it meant I was not with them? Maybe, but probably not. Did they resent me and actively seek to tear me down if I disagreed or had an issue? Yes, and yes. Did they wish me harm and ill intent after we parted? I hope not, but maybe or likely so. Were they kind or forgiving? Somewhat, depending on the person. I suppose that varied but kindness was not a consistent trait, just for a few. It seems to dissipate too quickly if things didn't go their way. My ex was not unkind by nature, but I found out that when he was in his cups he often wasn't kind either...moody, self-absorbed, unavailable, didn't fight fair. The usual stuff. Is any of this authentic love? LOL....no.

Frankly, seeking authentic love in partnership is not going to be a realistic goal for many. Even when they have the capacity and willingness to offer authentic love. Even when they ARE offering authentic love, LOL. Because there must be a mutuality of authentic love in relationship, or else it's one person rowing the boat all the time, and that's not sustainable in partnership. In fact, what's on offer is so far from authentic love in so many cases as to render it largely unpalatable for many. This is tragically par for the course but it's a simple reflection of where humanity at present is at...we have been on a backslide for the last half century, a detour in the wrong direction. Toward self-service and exploitation of others and away from authentic love of one another as people and as beloved friends.

Which is why I have not been in more than a few relationships since having my child and my deeper awakening to the nature of authentic love -- which seeks your highest good equally to that of the other(s) and their highest good, equally to your own. Any casual dating pretty much automatically is not ever going to approach authentic love, and it's just not appealing (to emotionally and spiritually mature women, especially).

I see the tides are changing slowly. If you and other gents can own your game long enough to get to know and love women as people and as friends, then you can stay strong and get clean. This critical step will allow you to choose from strength and love, and not from desperation and addiction. If you can get and stay clean, you will be able to bypass and weed out the borderlines and predators who put empty sex out there like crack, to manipulate and misdirect you and other men. You can avoid those who crassly abuse your heart and your soul and treat you like a mindless animal. If you as a man can keep it in your pants then the world is your oyster.

You mentioned having experienced the authentic love of your parents. You are very lucky here...nurture these relationships. And to this authentic love, you can add the authentic love of beloved friends and family. You can also join groups and communities to share and give back, and you can experience the authentic love of community here as well. You can cultivate the love of family by choice, as well as family by birth :D Nurturing the authentic love that you can share in your life right now, with folks who love you AS YOU ARE and for no other reason, will allow you to recognise the spiritual and emotional maturity of those others (including those women) who will treat you with kindness and respect.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[davidsun]

You mentioned having experienced the authentic love of your parents. You are very lucky here...nurture these relationships. And to this authentic love, you can add the authentic love of beloved friends and family. You can also join groups and communities to share and give back, and you can experience the authentic love of community here as well. You can cultivate the love of family by choice, as well as family by birth :D Nurturing the authentic love that you can share in your life right now, with folks who love you AS YOU ARE and for no other reason, will allow you to recognise the spiritual and emotional maturity of those others (including those women) who will treat you with kindness and respect.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L
(Just copied/pasted a part of your post to put this comment in context, 7L)

Impressively 'fully' synthesized, beautifully word-articulated and deep-lovingly shared!

Zen-bowing!

[7luminaries]

Thanks so much for the kind words Davidsun and right back atcha :smile:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L