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Iamit
06-11-2017, 06:08 PM
There is not a state of "Being in Non-duality" as opposed to being in duality, as though it were possible to be in one or the other:) The whole of the manifestation is duality. There is not a part of the manifestation called nonduality that you can be in:)

Whilst in duality, you can encounter a concept called non duality which asserts that despite the very convincing, solid looking, appearance of difference that is duality, ALL is in fact ONE.

Having said that, there is the idea of enlightenment, which is often taken to mean that duality has been trancended and an apparent separate looking person is in fact no longer separate but has rather become One with everything.

But then again its not possible to know whether someone is enlightened or not. There are certain characteristics which are supposed to exemplify it, but the mind can easily construct these and hide behind as the separate self, contradicting every one of them:) It can often be very advantageous for the mind to do this, as there can be many benefits in terms of motor cars and other gifts.

:)

jonesboy
06-11-2017, 06:12 PM
A real guru can share his presence/oneness with another being. Can induce silence, bliss and help remove obstructions.

When in the presence of a real guru.. there is no doubt.

sky
06-11-2017, 08:51 PM
https://m.rediff.com/news/report/pix-india-10-most-controversial-gurus/20141120.htm


I wonder did followers of these gurus feel their presence, sure they did until........ they awakened :smile: or the Police/Authorities stepped in.

jonesboy
06-11-2017, 08:55 PM
I wouldn't consider any of them real gurus but thanks again for an uninformative post.

sky
06-11-2017, 09:10 PM
I wouldn't consider any of them real gurus but thanks again for an uninformative post.

No I wouldn't either but the millions who followed them did, that's the sad part. I think it is very informative because vunerable people get caught up in the hype and it can be descructive.

I know people who followed a so called Teacher in a Tibetan Buddhist Branch, very well known, and now need Psychiatric help because of the mind control techniques used, a disgrace to Buddha's teachings imo.

Iamit
07-11-2017, 07:23 AM
A real guru can share his presence/oneness with another being. Can induce silence, bliss and help remove obstructions.

When in the presence of a real guru.. there is no doubt.

We proclaim the amazing ability of the mind to fool us when it suits us, and underestimate it when it doesn't.

Concepts are more trustworthy, at least we know they are made up constructions. We can take the words and the ideas on face value, and resonate with them or not, without being seduced, literally in some cases, by the messenger.

:)

jonesboy
07-11-2017, 11:39 AM
Sounds like you both like to find a few bad apples and apply it to everyone.

A guru doesn’t seduce or tell you what to do.

According to the theory listening to Jesus or the Buddha would have been bad.

sky
07-11-2017, 12:39 PM
Sounds like you both like to find a few bad apples and apply it to everyone.

A guru doesn’t seduce or tell you what to do.

According to the theory listening to Jesus or the Buddha would have been bad.



If you read the very informative post above you will see that SOME do seduce people, that is reality.
Jesus and The Buddha cannot be compared to the charlatans/ seducers mentioned above and there are many more that are genuine ' you will know them by their fruits ' so they say...

EndoftheRoad
07-11-2017, 12:41 PM
The guru who seeks out followers tends to be the one of concern.

jonesboy
07-11-2017, 12:56 PM
If you read the very informative post above you will see that SOME do seduce people, that is reality.
Jesus and The Buddha cannot be compared to the charlatans/ seducers mentioned above and there are many more that are genuine ' you will know them by their fruits ' so they say...

Correct the word is some.

As I have said none of those people are real gurus.

If you would have understood what I meant by sharing presence..

Also sky... why do you have to post in every thread I post on and have to post the opposite of what I post?

I have never met a person who is a spiritual teacher put down other teachers as much as you.

Amazing stuff.

jonesboy
07-11-2017, 12:57 PM
We proclaim the amazing ability of the mind to fool us when it suits us, and underestimate it when it doesn't.

Concepts are more trustworthy, at least we know they are made up constructions. We can take the words and the ideas on face value, and resonate with them or not, without being seduced, literally in some cases, by the messenger.

:)


All that is of the mind. Some of it you like more than others but it is all mind.

A real guru takes you beyond concepts.

sky
07-11-2017, 01:15 PM
Correct the word is some.

As I have said none of those people are real gurus.

If you would have understood what I meant by sharing presence..

Also sky... why do you have to post in every thread I post on and have to post the opposite of what I post?

I have never met a person who is a spiritual teacher put down other teachers as much as you.

Amazing stuff.

Yes amazing stuff.... everything is amazing :smile:
I don't put down other teachers, what I say is ' SOME need a guru/teacher others DON'T...

I post on your post's because this is a Forum open to all..... and I am allowed to disagree, just as you do.... :D

sky
07-11-2017, 01:19 PM
The guru who seeks out followers tends to be the one of concern.

Yes this is sometimes true, you have to be so carefull who you associate with as they can cause people a lot of mental health problems and some people are so vunerable...

jonesboy
07-11-2017, 01:23 PM
Yes amazing stuff.... everything is amazing :smile:
I don't put down other teachers, what I say is ' SOME need a guru/teacher others DON'T...

I post on your post's because this is a Forum open to all..... and I am allowed to disagree, just as you do.... :D

Yes, sky you do say others don't and the post on how many threads at the moment why others don't?

It is amazing that the ones saying you don't need one are the ones the most closed off.

Having an open heart isn't just about helping others it is also being open enough to be helped.

Spirituality isn't a game. If you have been doing a practice for 10 years, an energy practice and never felt energy.. should you maybe look for help?

If you are doing practices and it causes mental and physical upsets should you look to a person of knowledge or just figure it out on your own?

Or not even believe that spiritual practices can cause physical or mental upsets. I believe that was your last advise to someone.

After all.. what is more ego. Asking questions from someone who is from a lineage and has spent there life learning and practicing.. or thinking you can just figure things out all by yourself. That nobody knows more than you.

Also... if you believe some people need a teacher it would be nice to see at least one post saying something positive about gurus instead of the usually from you taking quotes out of context to try to fit your view.

sky
07-11-2017, 01:38 PM
Yes, sky you do say others don't and the post on how many threads at the moment why others don't?

It is amazing that the ones saying you don't need one are the ones the most closed off.

Having an open heart isn't just about helping others it is also being open enough to be helped.

Spirituality isn't a game. If you have been doing a practice for 10 years, an energy practice and never felt energy.. should you maybe look for help?

If you are doing practices and it causes mental and physical upsets should you look to a person of knowledge or just figure it out on your own?

Or not even believe that spiritual practices can cause physical or mental upsets. I believe that was your last advise to someone.

After all.. what is more ego. Asking questions from someone who is from a lineage and has spent there life learning and practicing.. or thinking you can just figure things out all by yourself. That nobody knows more than you.

Also... if you believe some people need a teacher it would be nice to see at least one post saying something positive about gurus instead of the usually from you taking quotes out of context to try to fit your view.


Lineage is nothing important, anyone can say they come from a lineage who can prove it ???? Someone who is genuine wouldn't need to advertise their lineage. I have been with ' lineage titled so called gurus/teachers and found my next door neighbours cat is a better guru/teacher than they will ever be. :smile:

SOME need a guru/ teacher, others DON'T.. As for going beyond concepts you have to be carefull that they don't take you beyond into their concepts :smile: as SOME do.



' You will know them by their fruits' .

jonesboy
07-11-2017, 01:42 PM
Lineage is nothing important, anyone can say they come from a lineage who can prove it ???? Someone who is genuine wouldn't need to advertising their lineage. I have been with ' lineage titled so called gurus/teachers and found my next door neighbours cat is a better guru/teacher than they will ever be. :smile:

SOME need a guru/ teacher, others DON'T.. As for going beyond concepts you have to be carefull that they don't take you beyond into their concepts :smile: as SOME do.


' You will know them by their fruits' .

Lineages are important. They come from divine/realized beings.. They have power/energy that helps move people along. Any serious practitioner knows and understands the power of lineages.

Also, I am not promoting any practice or lineage.. so no recruiting from me.. just a topic of discussion.

You will know them by their fruits'

Yes, when all they do is put down others, traditions and teachings.. you shall know them.

sky
07-11-2017, 02:27 PM
Lineages are important. They come from divine/realized beings.. They have power/energy that helps move people along. Any serious practitioner knows and understands the power of lineages.

Also, I am not promoting any practice or lineage.. so no recruiting from me.. just a topic of discussion.

You will know them by their fruits'

Yes, when all they do is put down others, traditions and teachings.. you shall know them.

Yes we will know them :wink:
We are all divine beings, everyone of us, don't ket the gurus tell you otherwise... that's another trick that SOME of them use to seduce their followers...

jonesboy
07-11-2017, 02:33 PM
Yes we will know them :wink:
We are all divine beings, everyone of us, don't ket the gurus tell you otherwise... that's another trick that SOME of them use to seduce their followers...

If that helps you sleep at night thinking that, cool.

What matters is if you are realized or not. That is the big difference. If you don't see or understand that difference. Not much anyone can say to you then.

sky
07-11-2017, 02:38 PM
If that helps you sleep at night thinking that, cool.

What matters is if you are realized or not. That is the big difference. If you don't see or understand that difference. Not much anyone can say to you then.

I don't think when I sleep :biggrin: I just sleep.....

Jyotir
07-11-2017, 02:42 PM
Yes Iamit, of course [sarcastically],

And all those naïve fools who sought out Ramana came from all over the world to see the fashion statement of the guru’s loincloth first-hand! Perhaps they thought it was a nappie, thus making it even more novel, and proving how ridiculous he looked posing as a ‘guru‘. Ha ha. They really put him in his place, alright. :cool:

It could not have been oneness with his realization - even partial - which rendered him One by identification with those who sought him by virtue of the very enlightenment which cannot be known. Nahhhhh. Because…

… its not possible to know whether someone is enlightened or not.
Right!
And that’s due to the irrefutable fact of a static, inviolable, objective duality, which permanently imprisons every separate person in their own private universe forever and ever and ever - :mad: - except for the impossible, futile, self-contradictory indulgence of posting provocative absurdities on the internet! :hug3: Indeed…


There are certain characteristics which are supposed to exemplify it… Yeh, like, a loincloth, obviously. Duh-uhhhhh. :rolleyes:

…but the mind can easily construct these and hide behind as the separate self, contradicting every one of them:) It can often be very advantageous for the mind to do this, as there can be many benefits in terms of motor cars and other gifts. Not to mention loincloths posing as the emperor’s new cloths, and daft Charlies flocking to the side of a mountain in India to get 'dar-sham'-ed - - when it’s just a fig-leaf for Ignorance that fools them every time :tongue:





Thanks for the interlude of levity.
The non-dual forum can be so hyper-serious sometimes.

~ J

sentient
07-11-2017, 10:48 PM
A real guru can share his presence/oneness with another being. Can induce silence, bliss and help remove obstructions.

When in the presence of a real guru.. there is no doubt.

I have never actually met a Guru, only some indigenous Elders with whom one can be in nondual alignment.

Because of the high transparency of the situation, that shared presence/oneness does induce silent communication.

Also if one is in a proper alignment with the Elder (Guru) non-dually - and ready, teaching situations spontaneously manifest for the "Guru" to act upon and for you to witness.

And of course direct inner knowing is beyond doubt.

Gem
07-11-2017, 11:19 PM
There is not a state of "Being in Non-duality" as opposed to being in duality, as though it were possible to be in one or the other:) The whole of the manifestation is duality. There is not a part of the manifestation called nonduality that you can be in:)

Whilst in duality, you can encounter a concept called non duality which asserts that despite the very convincing, solid looking, appearance of difference that is duality, ALL is in fact ONE.

Having said that, there is the idea of enlightenment, which is often taken to mean that duality has been trancended and an apparent separate looking person is in fact no longer separate but has rather become One with everything.

But then again its not possible to know whether someone is enlightened or not. There are certain characteristics which are supposed to exemplify it, but the mind can easily construct these and hide behind as the separate self, contradicting every one of them:) It can often be very advantageous for the mind to do this, as there can be many benefits in terms of motor cars and other gifts.

:)

I think non-duality means that there is no entity to identity. I e. There is no 'you' in regards to an 'other'.

Iamit
08-11-2017, 06:51 AM
Yes Iamit, of course [sarcastically],

And all those naïve fools who sought out Ramana came from all over the world to see the fashion statement of the guru’s loincloth first-hand! Perhaps they thought it was a nappie, thus making it even more novel, and proving how ridiculous he looked posing as a ‘guru‘. Ha ha. They really put him in his place, alright. :cool:

It could not have been oneness with his realization - even partial - which rendered him One by identification with those who sought him by virtue of the very enlightenment which cannot be known. Nahhhhh. Because…


Right!
And that’s due to the irrefutable fact of a static, inviolable, objective duality, which permanently imprisons every separate person in their own private universe forever and ever and ever - :mad: - except for the impossible, futile, self-contradictory indulgence of posting provocative absurdities on the internet! :hug3: Indeed…


Yeh, like, a loincloth, obviously. Duh-uhhhhh. :rolleyes:

Not to mention loincloths posing as the emperor’s new cloths, and daft Charlies flocking to the side of a mountain in India to get 'dar-sham'-ed - - when it’s just a fig-leaf for Ignorance that fools them every time :tongue:





Thanks for the interlude of levity.
The non-dual forum can be so hyper-serious sometimes.

~ J

Its well known that focussing on the person rather than addressing the issues, is a a tactic employed when beleifs are held insecurely resulting in posts like yours. When such arises its best to end the exchange so thankyou and goodbye.

Iamit
08-11-2017, 07:00 AM
All that is of the mind. Some of it you like more than others but it is all mind.

A real guru takes you beyond concepts.

Good luck with sorting out who are the real gurus from mind created characteristics. Meanwhile you can always just evaluate the words and ideas wherever you encounter them, from so called gurus or not:)

jonesboy
08-11-2017, 02:54 PM
All that is of the mind. Some of it you like more than others but it is all mind.

A real guru takes you beyond concepts.

Good luck with sorting out who are the real gurus from mind created characteristics. Meanwhile you can always just evaluate the words and ideas wherever you encounter them, from so called gurus or not:)

It's not hard.

A real guru can touch your mind, bring deep silence and energy to help one let go of issues.

For instance a person recently reached out to me because she was suffering daily panic attacks that would last 5 hours every night.

A couple of days of working with my friend and she no longer has panic attacks.

He didn't tell her how to live, what to do, didn't tell her to start doing any particular practices. He shared his presence.

It is that type of presence, when one feels the heart open and love pores forth that one knows.

A real guru shares grace, not words or concepts or dictates.

sky
08-11-2017, 04:28 PM
Mind over matter is an amazing tool to help people who are suffering, the placebo effect is very well documented in the medical world.

jonesboy
08-11-2017, 04:32 PM
Dismiss it if you wish :)

You know the saying..

Ignorance is bliss...

:D

sky
08-11-2017, 05:07 PM
Dismiss it if you wish :)

You know the saying..

Ignorance is bliss...

:D

Where did I dismiss it ? Bliss is beautiful btw :smile:
I said that mind over matter is very powerfull as we both know. The person who was ill thought your friend cured her with some special power he thinks he has, no jonesboy that is not true, lets be 100% truthful, she cured herself by thinking your friend has special powers which could cure her, It's called the ' placebo effect '

It's good to see it has worked for her, I wish her well but it wasn't anything outside of herself that cured her...

jonesboy
08-11-2017, 05:17 PM
Where did I dismiss it ? Bliss is beautiful btw :smile:
I said that mind over matter is very powerfull as we both know. The person who was ill thought your friend cured her with some special power he thinks he has, no jonesboy that is not true, lets be 100% truthful, she cured herself by thinking your friend has special powers which could cure her, It's called the ' placebo effect '

It's good to see it has worked for her, I wish her well but it wasn't anything outside of herself that cured her...

Sorry sky but that is not true and just one example.

I have offered to introduce you many times so that you can know for yourself. For years now and you have instead declined and offered insults.

It is one thing to not believe I get that it is another to be offered proof and to decline and offer insults instead as you always do.

You have others on this forum saying the same thing as me, recommending the same people as I do.

No point in debating you about something you don't believe in or ever wish to experience.

I am sure you will continue with your negative posts about guru's, or traditions or teachers etc.. are all bad unless you believe in them of course...

sky
08-11-2017, 05:30 PM
Sorry sky but that is not true and just one example.

I have offered to introduce you many times so that you can know for yourself. For years now and you have instead declined and offered insults.

It is one thing to not believe I get that it is another to be offered proof and to decline and offer insults instead as you always do.

You have others on this forum saying the same thing as me, recommending the same people as I do.

No point in debating you about something you don't believe in or ever wish to experience.

So, it would be nice if you haven't experienced a thing or wish to see if it is true for you not to comment on things of which you have no experience of.

I have had experience since being a child, without any outside help, I know the mind control some people try on others but I am not interested as I have had experience of seeing the damage it can do to vunerable people. All the answers are within.... the placebo effect is amazing because it does help some people help themselves and that's what's important. :smile:

jonesboy
08-11-2017, 05:45 PM
I have had experience since being a child, without any outside help, I know the mind control some people try on others but I am not interested as I have had experience of seeing the damage it can do to vunerable people. All the answers are within.... the placebo effect is amazing because it does help some people help themselves and that's what's important. :smile:

Sounds good if that is what you want to believe :smile:

sky
08-11-2017, 05:50 PM
Sounds good if that is what you want to believe :smile:


It is veeeeeery good :smile: Seeing people get well through placebo tablets proves the effect works, it's all in the mind after all.

Iamit
08-11-2017, 06:00 PM
I think non-duality means that there is no entity to identity. I e. There is no 'you' in regards to an 'other'.

People sometimes make that claim about themselves, and sometimes about their so called Guru. That doesn't mean that dropping away has happened. The separate self could just as easily be hiding behind that facade. and the so called Guru could be unaware of that. Conditioning is most effective when it is forgotten that it has happened:)

jonesboy
08-11-2017, 06:17 PM
People sometimes make that claim about themselves, and sometimes about their so called Guru. That doesn't mean that dropping away has happened. The separate self could just as easily be hiding behind that facade. and the so called Guru could be unaware of that. Conditioning is most effective when it is forgotten that it has happened:)

When one has moved beyond the self they become One Like Siva.

If that is the case there is no doubt as they can directly prove it.

If it is all talk, all astral.. you know they haven't.

Iamit
08-11-2017, 06:18 PM
[QUOTE=Iamit]

It's not hard.

A real guru can touch your mind, bring deep silence and energy to help one let go of issues.

For instance a person recently reached out to me because she was suffering daily panic attacks that would last 5 hours every night.

A couple of days of working with my friend and she no longer has panic attacks.

He didn't tell her how to live, what to do, didn't tell her to start doing any particular practices. He shared his presence.

It is that type of presence, when one feels the heart open and love pores forth that one knows.

A real guru shares grace, not words or concepts or dictates.

When there is a stereotype, like the one you just described, the mind can easily and very convincinly fabricate that. The so called Guru may not be aware of such conditioning, which is more effective when the 'Guru' is unaware of it. It is well known that the mind can do this for very good defensive reasons, to protect the organism it serves.

Its not necessary to believe in the messenger as enlightened to have a resonance with what is said, which may even end feeling disconnected.

Another barrier is then removed from already burdened seekers, of having to sort out whether someone is enlightened or not. What a relief!

Iamit
08-11-2017, 06:27 PM
When one has moved beyond the self they become One Like Siva.

If that is the case there is no doubt as they can directly prove it.

If it is all talk, all astral.. you know they haven't.

It is a very painful and maybe damaging thing when something comes to light that contradicts what is believed to be true, that was hidden when it was believed the truth had been discovered. in this case a true Guru. Removing the impossible task of having to know the truth gets rid of another obstacle in the way of the seeker.

jonesboy
08-11-2017, 06:43 PM
It is a very painful and maybe damaging thing when something comes to light that contradicts what is believed to be true, that was hidden when it was believed the truth had been discovered. in this case a true Guru. Removing the impossible task of having to know the truth gets rid of another obstacle in the way of the seeker.

Wouldn't that show ones attachments if it was so painful that a thought can do such damage?

The true removal of obstructions are liberating, expansive.. not damaging. How can the removal of obstructions be damaging? It is the obstruction that causes the damage, not the removal of it.

Iamit
08-11-2017, 06:47 PM
Wouldn't that show ones attachments if it was so painful that a thought can do such damage?

The true removal of obstructions are liberating, expansive.. not damaging. How can the removal of obstructions be damaging? It is the obstruction that causes the damage, not the removal of it.

The obstruction is having to first know whether the messanger is enlightened or not. It is the removal of that requirement that gets rid of another burden for the seeker.

jonesboy
08-11-2017, 06:52 PM
The obstruction is having to first know whether the messanger is enlightened or not. It is the removal of that requirement that gets rid of another burden for the seeker.

I would not consider knowing if someone is enlightened or not an obstruction unless you are obsessed about it. Nor do I understand how finding out if someone is could cause someone harm.

If you are open you will be amazed at the grace that can come into our lives.

If on the other hand you don't believe and think you know it all..

Well we have a lot of those around here don't we :)

sky
08-11-2017, 07:11 PM
' If on the other hand you don't believe and think you know it all..

Well we have a lot of those around here don't we :) '

Then we have those who think they know the one's who think they know it all :D

blossomingtree
08-11-2017, 09:15 PM
But then again its not possible to know whether someone is enlightened or not. There are certain characteristics which are supposed to exemplify it, but the mind can easily construct these and hide behind as the separate self, contradicting every one of them:) It can often be very advantageous for the mind to do this, as there can be many benefits in terms of motor cars and other gifts.

:)

It's also very possible - and evidently, eminently obvious through this post - that some people, in their personal fear of teachers/Gurus, or perhaps preference to be un-validated and self soothing in their own misconception that they "have arrived" (perhaps even preaching from this belief) - that they waste no opportunity to try to scare others from the very real reality of highly Awakened/Enlightened Masters.

In other words, sure some people are fake, but the benefits and advantages - if one is fortunate enough to meet a real teacher - can be invaluable. Although, I've also heard it said, it takes one to know one. Without or with a teacher, spiritual work needs to continue, I guess.

BT

sentient
08-11-2017, 09:49 PM
Sharing presence/oneness is not a biggy (like a shock awakening), but it is definitely needed if considering following a Guru.
Sharing presence/oneness or being in One Spirit is beyond mind.

It is like holding a butterfly on the palm of your hand.
If your mind wants to grasp/possess it, you’ll destroy it.
If you take your attention off the enchantment/Grace of the situation, it’ll fly away.

Gem
08-11-2017, 10:25 PM
People sometimes make that claim about themselves, and sometimes about their so called Guru. That doesn't mean that dropping away has happened. The separate self could just as easily be hiding behind that facade. and the so called Guru could be unaware of that. Conditioning is most effective when it is forgotten that it has happened:)

Personally I have no interest in guruism, so I have no impulsion to promote it. I can say the notion that guruism is necessary is misguided, and I'd never suggest to anyone that they should find a guru, as all I can say is something along the lines of, it's your life, so you decide what you'll do.

blossomingtree
08-11-2017, 10:56 PM
Sharing presence/oneness is not a biggy (like a shock awakening), but it is definitely needed if considering following a Guru.
Sharing presence/oneness or being in One Spirit is beyond mind.

It is like holding a butterfly on the palm of your hand.
If your mind wants to grasp/possess it, you’ll destroy it.
If you take your attention off the enchantment/Grace of the situation, it’ll fly away.

I've seen/met people where one's own consciousness shifts, I am guessing that their energy field is such that the effects are physically palpable?

blossomingtree
08-11-2017, 10:57 PM
I have never actually met a Guru, only some indigenous Elders with whom one can be in nondual alignment.

Because of the high transparency of the situation, that shared presence/oneness does induce silent communication.

Also if one is in a proper alignment with the Elder (Guru) non-dually - and ready, teaching situations spontaneously manifest for the "Guru" to act upon and for you to witness.

And of course direct inner knowing is beyond doubt.

It's often such Elders that I would personally use the term for :smile:

sentient
09-11-2017, 12:06 AM
I've seen/met people where one's own consciousness shifts, I am guessing that their energy field is such that the effects are physically palpable?
I think so too. Like a tuning fork (I guess?), your awareness just shifts to that vibrational Nondual Grace, a bit like jumping on a higher Octave (perhaps one could say).

It's often such Elders that I would personally use the term for :smile:
Meeting such Elders is very humbling, yet very egalitarian situation.

blossomingtree
09-11-2017, 12:23 AM
Hi sentient

Nice to meet a fellow being :hug2:

I think so too. Like a tuning fork (I guess?), your awareness just shifts to that vibrational Nondual Grace, a bit like jumping on a higher Octave (perhaps one could say).

Yes I don't exactly know how it works. I think you have to tune in to that love too though, so maybe it's like a meeting - their consciousness facilitates/supports an upward shift? But as said, I don't know how it works.

Meeting such Elders is very humbling, yet very egalitarian situation.

Oh for sure. Every time I have met these Beings of Light, it is just beautiful sweetness. The thing is, it changes your (my) world view forever. I am / feel lucky to have had these opportunities as I am also quite suspicious/cynical by nature and also had great fears of "being duped".

BT

sentient
09-11-2017, 01:23 AM
Thank you for your comments Blossomingtree, nice to meet you too :smile:


Yes I don't exactly know how it works.
I don’t know either. Sometimes the shift is instant, before you can even think: “shift”, or before your eyes have even met - you have shifted already.

I think you have to tune in to that love too though
Nondual Grace is unconditional love, it is love that just "IS", without there really being a giver nor a receiver of it.

blossomingtree
09-11-2017, 01:48 AM
Thank you for your comments Blossomingtree, nice to meet you too :smile:

:smile:

I don’t know either. Sometimes the shift is instant, before you can even think: “shift”, or before your eyes have even met - you have shifted already.

Well I never expected it. Nor do I still. Au natural is a philosophy of mine :biggrin: One time I was with a group of people listening to a Buddhist Master and one of the people afterwards said "I think I felt exactly what he was talking about" (true love consciousness). I knew what this person meant.

Nondual Grace is unconditional love, it is love that just "IS", without there really being a giver nor a receiver of it.

If we talk about Grace, to me that is a much bigger topic. Those whom emanate unconditional love, I do believe, know that there is no giver or receiver - or rather, that both are one and the same.

I remember seeing a four legged friend once, and knowing, that the eyes which it looked at me were the eyes that I was looking at it. That type of inner knowing, like you say, is indisputable.

sentient
09-11-2017, 02:04 AM
I remember seeing a four legged friend once, and knowing, that the eyes which it looked at me were the eyes that I was looking at it. That type of inner knowing, like you say, is indisputable.

Haha. That kind of thing has happened to me too.
A non-dual magical moment with a four legged.

blossomingtree
09-11-2017, 03:49 AM
Haha. That kind of thing has happened to me too.
A non-dual magical moment with a four legged.

It's funny coming onto forums like this and hearing people have names for it.

Back then, and even now (trying not to get corrupted haha) I try not to label it - things are so much better that way methinks :hug3:

sentient
09-11-2017, 09:10 PM
Looking into the eyes of another, yet seeing yourself (your own awareness) reflected i.e. looking back at yourself in the form of another person, animal even, that is a moment of intimacy when you know exactly what the other is thinking, intending, seeing …

Well, back then they would probably call it: “remembering the time when humans and animals understood each other because they all spoke the same language”.
But that sounds like mental aberrations of some feeble minded natives lost in their own fairy-tales, until you actually have one of those magical nondual/oneness moments with an animal, and then you realize that back then they were right, and they still are.

Also how in that magical moment the Animal was your Guru with the teaching.

blossomingtree
09-11-2017, 09:27 PM
Looking into the eyes of another, yet seeing yourself (your own awareness) reflected i.e. looking back at yourself in the form of another person, animal even, that is a moment of intimacy when you know exactly what the other is thinking, intending, seeing …

Well, back then they would probably call it: “remembering the time when humans and animals understood each other because they all spoke the same language”.
But that sounds like mental aberrations of some feeble minded natives lost in their own fairy-tales, until you actually have one of those magical nondual/oneness moments with an animal, and then you realize that back then they were right, and they still are.

Also how in that magical moment the Animal was your Guru with the teaching.

This was a knowing - knowing that the eyes with which s/he looked at me, were the same eyes that I looked at him/her

I don't doubt the magical - I have witnessed much of it in my life and respect the work of the Ancients and those in commune with nature.

revolver
10-11-2017, 07:02 AM
There is only One, call that non-duality or whatever.

sentient
10-11-2017, 11:33 PM
The word “nature” can also just be a word, a concept for a city dweller.
Until you are in nature.
Then you find that your mind stops racing i.e. your brainwaves start to slow down as your thought processes calm down and then at a standstill you start to listen to that silence in nature with your inner silence and stillness as a “sounding board” (maybe one could say).
With reverence and respect you surrender to that inner listening.

Some city dwellers fear that surrender (to lower brainwaves and nature silence) and start to fight against it within and thus becoming claustrophobic feel like the forest is ominously closing in on them.
They don’t trust nature nor the process – there is a fear barrier there because they are not used to it.

Then there are places in nature that can shift you even deeper into realizing totality as oneness as interconnectedness.
Those places in nature are “Gurus” also as they help your awareness to align.
No words, no concepts, no “corruption”.

blossomingtree
11-11-2017, 12:06 AM
Nice. ....

Iamit
11-11-2017, 04:08 AM
It's also very possible - and evidently, eminently obvious through this post - that some people, in their personal fear of teachers/Gurus, or perhaps preference to be un-validated and self soothing in their own misconception that they "have arrived" (perhaps even preaching from this belief) - that they waste no opportunity to try to scare others from the very real reality of highly Awakened/Enlightened Masters.

In other words, sure some people are fake, but the benefits and advantages - if one is fortunate enough to meet a real teacher - can be invaluable. Although, I've also heard it said, it takes one to know one. Without or with a teacher, spiritual work needs to continue, I guess.

BT

Whenever one has provoked themselves into focussing on the person rather than the issues, its a sure sign that a delicate belief has been threatened.

blossomingtree
11-11-2017, 04:51 AM
Whenever one has provoked themselves into focussing on the person rather than the issues, its a sure sign that a delicate belief has been threatened.

You know you have just committed the same 'sin' right, thus implying you have said issue? :hug3: Don't worry, this is a forum and comments should rightfully be explored, especially when someone might actually believe what someone [else] is saying. Take care. :smile:

Iamit
12-11-2017, 01:36 AM
You know you have just committed the same 'sin' right, thus implying you have said issue? :hug3: Don't worry, this is a forum and comments should rightfully be explored, especially when someone might actually believe what someone [else] is saying. Take care. :smile:

Still no attempt by you to focus on the issues. Your insistance to focus on the person has nothing to do with this space as a discussion forum, far from it, but rather the sad usual response of a belief held insecurely requiring the well known tactic you are trying. The best resonse to such is to end the exchange if we dont want this space to turn into a place where people attack each other personally so until you want to discuss the issues raised by this thread we are done.Goodbye and good luck.

blossomingtree
12-11-2017, 03:50 AM
Post 41 is a post responding to the points in your original content; it seem that you don't like challenges to what you say, nor like to have your lone "Guru" pulpit challenged. (something about insecurity and beliefs). The fact is you do not know who is enlightened, but claiming that others can't, or that teachers/Gurus are not real (nor need to be followed) is disingenuous at best, and deceptive at worst. Also continuing to proclaim there is no path in non-duality isn't helpful, and as I said somewhere else, such a mind incessantly will be unable to stand up to challenges. Krishnamurti may have been speaking from a place of Truth, but not everyone who imitates such speech is coming from the same place {of Truth}/

I'd be interested in your thoughts:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1661970#post1661970

Thank you.

Iamit
12-11-2017, 05:43 PM
Post 41 is a post responding to the points in your original content; it seem that you don't like challenges to what you say, nor like to have your lone "Guru" pulpit challenged. (something about insecurity and beliefs). The fact is you do not know who is enlightened, but claiming that others can't, or that teachers/Gurus are not real (nor need to be followed) is disingenuous at best, and deceptive at worst. Also continuing to proclaim there is no path in non-duality isn't helpful, and as I said somewhere else, such a mind incessantly will be unable to stand up to challenges. Krishnamurti may have been speaking from a place of Truth, but not everyone who imitates such speech is coming from the same place {of Truth}/

I'd be interested in your thoughts:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1661970#post1661970

Thank you.

Well I suppose that is some attempt to address the issues raised by this thread. The main one I would describe as whether devotion to a guru as enlightened is helpful to seekers. I suggest that it is not at all helpful as having to establish whether they are enlightened or not, and coping with any fall from grace, are just more obstacles placed before seekers who are already burdened enough.

You misunderstand. There is no problem with disagreement. It is the focus on the person rather than the issue that is the problem. A sad tactic which has no place in the attempt to communcate points of view to reach a mutual understanding, which has nothing to do with agreement. I would be happy to continue with you in that undertaking but not the other focus on the person stuff you have been indulging in, which will no longer be responded to, avoiding wasting your time and mine with senseless exchanges.

blossomingtree
12-11-2017, 11:29 PM
Yes, I'd rather hire an unskilled plumber off the street than an expert too. Really, what is the value? And the person proclaiming this "Truth" with no credentials - they are not to be questioned or else! "(cheap tactic and insecure beliefs and all...)"

If Jesus or Buddha turned up tomorrow, I'd definitely ignore them - yes, we are now officially on the same page. ("Hey dude, all IS ONE so get out of here, J, no-one needs you!")

Iamit
12-11-2017, 11:45 PM
Yes, I'd rather hire an unskilled plumber off the street than an expert too. Really, what is the value? And the person proclaiming this "Truth" with no credentials - they are not to be questioned or else! "(cheap tactic and insecure beliefs and all...)"

If Jesus or Buddha turned up tomorrow, I'd definitely ignore them - yes, we are now officially on the same page. ("Hey dude, all IS ONE so get out of here, J, no-one needs you!")

To all who hope for discussion leading to mutual understanding on this forum, dont let posts such as the one above dominate. Dont be tempted to buy into their trip, it will poison this space for discussion of the issues.

blossomingtree
12-11-2017, 11:54 PM
To all who hope for mutual understanding on this forum, dont let posts such as the one above dominate.

The post was tongue in cheek but the correlation to your original post clear. You talk of cheap tactics but can't stop your own.

Iamit
13-11-2017, 12:00 AM
The post was tongue in cheek but the correlation to your original post clear. You talk of cheap tactics but can't stop your own.

To the moderators. Is there no moderation here to prevent posts like the above which focus on the person rather than the issues?

sentient
13-11-2017, 12:45 AM
There is that much used Buddhist quote:
In the Buddhist teachings the symbol for compassion is one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water.
The moon does not demand, “If you open to me, I will do you a favour and shine on you.” The moon just shines.
If “Oneness” is realized (even momentarily), I can’t see the difficulty in recognizing other vessels that have also done so.
Sudden recognition, then shift into that shared presence/oneness – an oneness reflection that is both of you, yet neither of you.
In those instances both vessels light up, so there is a sense of radiance, light.

Blossomingtree mentioned “Beings of Light”, and I understand it as “Clear Light” that sustains all life.
Everyone and every thing has Spirit i.e. is thus a “being of light”, but some vessels being emptier (I suppose) emanate (or reflect) more light than others, hence in their presence the shift into that shared presence/oneness is more profound, there is more dimensional depth to it.

In those situations, I do not have a problem silencing my mind, taking my place (in the all-inclusive circle) and starting to watch how the other vessel more aligned in the centerless centre does it.

FallingLeaves
13-11-2017, 12:47 AM
Well I suppose that is some attempt to address the issues raised by this thread. The main one I would describe as whether devotion to a guru as enlightened is helpful to seekers. I suggest that it is not at all helpful as having to establish whether they are enlightened or not, and coping with any fall from grace, are just more obstacles placed before seekers who are already burdened enough.

it is like, if you are a child maybe there is some point in taking instruction in things you know nothing about... to kind of get heeled in it... but once you have been through a certain number of lifetimes you start getting a sense that something isn't working, that if you continue to take the schooling as it has always been given, you will get the same results you always got in the past. For some reason that seems disliked, so you start trying to look at things kind of from your own perspective more instead of relying so much on being told how it is by others. you've got some valid points, how DO you tell whether someone really is 'englightened' when you have no clue what that even means? And there are a lot of people playing others for fools these days...

but at the same time, from a 'practical' standpoint, you want someone who knows what they are doing to fix the pipes so that it will minimize your costs and maximize the time the pipes actually STAY fixed.

The question then becomes, WHY it is important that we do things from the 'practical' standpoint vs doing them some other way? WHY do we have to minimize costs? WHY do we have to have them stay fixed for a maximal time?

Why do we have to be so enamored of getting things done, in the proper time and way, that we aren't allowed to be like little children and play?

Iamit
13-11-2017, 01:53 AM
it is like, if you are a child maybe there is some point in taking instruction in things you know nothing about... to kind of get heeled in it... but once you have been through a certain number of lifetimes you start getting a sense that something isn't working, that if you continue to take the schooling as it has always been given, you will get the same results you always got in the past. For some reason that seems disliked, so you start trying to look at things kind of from your own perspective more instead of relying so much on being told how it is by others. you've got some valid points, how DO you tell whether someone really is 'englightened' when you have no clue what that even means? And there are a lot of people playing others for fools these days...

but at the same time, from a 'practical' standpoint, you want someone who knows what they are doing to fix the pipes so that it will minimize your costs and maximize the time the pipes actually STAY fixed.

The question then becomes, WHY it is important that we do things from the 'practical' standpoint vs doing them some other way? WHY do we have to minimize costs? WHY do we have to have them stay fixed for a maximal time?

Why do we have to be so enamored of getting things done, in the proper time and way, that we aren't allowed to be like little children and play?

I first heard the idea "All is One" from another but it could just as easily been in a book. I did not have to investigate the person to consider the idea. The words stood alone in the meaning regardless of who was expressing them. So the obstacle of first having to establish the integrity of the messenger is avoided. It is also possible to avoid the burden of first having to discover whether the idea is true by transcending the idea that truth can be known, as there may always be something hidden that contradicts it.

Characters vary. Why some need a Guru may be for the reasons you mention. My own feeling is that it may simply be a result of the long tradition in The East that there is such a person as an infallible, almost divine Guru. Or it might just be becuse of the Beatles:)

Probably all three.

Iamit
13-11-2017, 02:15 AM
There is that much used Buddhist quote:

If “Oneness” is realized (even momentarily), I can’t see the difficulty in recognizing other vessels that have also done so.
Sudden recognition, then shift into that shared presence/oneness – an oneness reflection that is both of you, yet neither of you.
In those instances both vessels light up, so there is a sense of radiance, light.

Blossomingtree mentioned “Beings of Light”, and I understand it as “Clear Light” that sustains all life.
Everyone and every thing has Spirit i.e. is thus a “being of light”, but some vessels being emptier (I suppose) emanate (or reflect) more light than others, hence in their presence the shift into that shared presence/oneness is more profound, there is more dimensional depth to it.

In those situations, I do not have a problem silencing my mind, taking my place (in the all-inclusive circle) and starting to watch how the other vessel more aligned in the centerless centre does it.

Ok if that works for you. Others find the consideration of ideas sufficient for progress regardless of who expresses them and have no requirement for devotion. Thats ok too but is often condemned by Guru devotees as being mind or ego. One size does not fit all.

Getting rid of requirements reduces the burden on seekers. Some may still wish to carry them and feel they are getting somewhere but others should not be condemned who see no reason to carry them, that all is already perfect just as it is.

blossomingtree
13-11-2017, 05:44 AM
I first heard the idea "All is One" from another but it could just as easily been in a book. I did not have to investigate the person to consider the idea. The words stood alone in the meaning regardless of who was expressing them. So the obstacle of first having to establish the integrity of the messenger is avoided. It is also possible to avoid the burden of first having to discover whether the idea is true by transcending the idea that truth can be known, as there may always be something hidden that contradicts it.

Characters vary. Why some need a Guru may be for the reasons you mention. My own feeling is that it may simply be a result of the long tradition in The East that there is such a person as an infallible, almost divine Guru. Or it might just be becuse of the Beatles:)

Probably all three.

I think this thread demonstrates some good reasons why teachers/Guides are actually helpful. {"Jesus, please stay at the door - I told you you're not welcome or needed - what is wrong with you?!"}

And the reason is that non-duality is not just a concept or idea, in my understanding, and when it's just picked up at that conceptual level it won't really help with a life transformation or how to approach life/relationships/interactions/animals/people/plants/trees/thesky/theclouds etc.
i.e. It's just a concept and superficial at best. "Life is perfect as it is" is refuted by reality when it is false. Why it then wants to spread/continue a weak chain-link to others is a question mark as well for me.

blossomingtree
13-11-2017, 05:54 AM
To the moderators. Is there no moderation here to prevent posts like the above which focus on the person rather than the issues?

Yes, I'd rather hire an unskilled plumber off the street than an expert too. Really, what is the value? And the person proclaiming this "Truth" with no credentials - they are not to be questioned or else! "(cheap tactic and insecure beliefs and all...)"

If Jesus or Buddha turned up tomorrow, I'd definitely ignore them - yes, we are now officially on the same page. ("Hey dude, all IS ONE so get out of here, J, no-one needs you!")

Let me help you again to explain a bit:

This is in effect what you are proclaiming - that no-one needs to look to the authority figure or seek an enlightened teacher and that people can pick up concepts themselves.

This is akin to turning your back on a modern day Jesus, Buddha, or other Avatar because "let's face it, gang, who needs these losers?"

And the point in this tongue and cheek example is it is the exact reason why we needed Jesus and Buddha back then - expertise, authenticity, genuine Gnosis and depth of spiritual insight that far surpasses your wildest imagination.

I like FallingLeave's example - it is true that we can just have fun (I know I love fun :D ) but at the same time, in sincerity, when there are genuine spiritual aspirants who seek to know Truth/non-duality/God/Dharma/Buddha/Spirit/Source - then it is appropriate that the seeker find an expert. This is appropriate on a number of levels, including, but not limited to, people do not know what they do not know, and even more importantly, one cannot see one's own limitations/blindspots which is the wares of the delusional mind and general ignorance. Whether they can actually find an expert or not is another issue, and whether all teachers are genuine experts is also another matter. That is not up for debate.

But your initial proclamation is wildly off base for that exact reason, exemplified and clarified through my dramatic posts.

Also, I have to say, that again your concepts of non-duality and "everything is perfect" is belied through the reality of this experience for you, and that is why picking up a concept here and there [even if from genuine sources such as Ramana Maharsi] is probably not going to be good enough for 99.9% of the world's population. Happy for you to continue as you see fit of course, but why proclaim your version as the truth?

Perseverance furthers, and so does assistance when needed. Hallelujah :smile:

blossomingtree
13-11-2017, 05:56 AM
I understand it as “Clear Light” that sustains all life.
Everyone and every thing has Spirit i.e. is thus a “being of light”, but some vessels being emptier (I suppose) emanate (or reflect) more light than others, hence in their presence the shift into that shared presence/oneness is more profound, there is more dimensional depth to it.

In those situations, I do not have a problem silencing my mind, taking my place (in the all-inclusive circle) and starting to watch how the other vessel more aligned in the centerless centre does it.

I love the Feeling of Truth, sentient, and yes, Beings of Light or the like - beautiful.

Thank you for the reminder, and the lift.

In appreciation,

BT

Iamit
13-11-2017, 01:17 PM
Let me help you again to explain a bit:

This is in effect what you are proclaiming - that no-one needs to look to the authority figure or seek an enlightened teacher and that people can pick up concepts themselves.

This is akin to turning your back on a modern day Jesus, Buddha, or other Avatar because "let's face it, gang, who needs these losers?"

And the point in this tongue and cheek example is it is the exact reason why we needed Jesus and Buddha back then - expertise, authenticity, genuine Gnosis and depth of spiritual insight that far surpasses your wildest imagination.

I like FallingLeave's example - it is true that we can just have fun (I know I love fun :D ) but at the same time, in sincerity, when there are genuine spiritual aspirants who seek to know Truth/non-duality/God/Dharma/Buddha/Spirit/Source - then it is appropriate that the seeker find an expert. This is appropriate on a number of levels, including, but not limited to, people do not know what they do not know, and even more importantly, one cannot see one's own limitations/blindspots which is the wares of the delusional mind and general ignorance. Whether they can actually find an expert or not is another issue, and whether all teachers are genuine experts is also another matter. That is not up for debate.

But your initial proclamation is wildly off base for that exact reason, exemplified and clarified through my dramatic posts.

Also, I have to say, that again your concepts of non-duality and "everything is perfect" is belied through the reality of this experience for you, and that is why picking up a concept here and there [even if from genuine sources such as Ramana Maharsi] is probably not going to be good enough for 99.9% of the world's population. Happy for you to continue as you see fit of course, but why proclaim your version as the truth?

Perseverance furthers, and so does assistance when needed. Hallelujah :smile:

I'll ignore your boring continued focus on the person for the same sad reasons.

The ideas/concepts expressed in the words do not have to be spoken by your experts for people to resonate with the words. Thats just another unecessary layer of burden for seekers to know which experts to believe in.

There is no misunderstanding. We disagree and should leave it at that. Forget your defensive focus on the person. Good luck with your experts. I hope for your sake there is nothing hidden which may come to light and result in your loss of faith.

Have fun:)

sky
13-11-2017, 01:40 PM
No matter how many guru's or teachers you associate with if it doesn't affect your essence for the better then you are wasting your time, you can change the label but the ingredients remain the same and visible for all to see.....

' You will know them by their fruits '

Iamit
13-11-2017, 01:54 PM
I think this thread demonstrates some good reasons why teachers/Guides are actually helpful. {"Jesus, please stay at the door - I told you you're not welcome or needed - what is wrong with you?!"}

And the reason is that non-duality is not just a concept or idea, in my understanding, and when it's just picked up at that conceptual level it won't really help with a life transformation or how to approach life/relationships/interactions/animals/people/plants/trees/thesky/theclouds etc.
i.e. It's just a concept and superficial at best. "Life is perfect as it is" is refuted by reality when it is false. Why it then wants to spread/continue a weak chain-link to others is a question mark as well for me.

You misunderstand. All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

In another post you seemed unclear about how nonduality may be helpful for some seekers. Let me try to clarify. If there is a resonance between the seeker and the idea (each having a vibration/frequency) it is obvious how that may end a feeling of disconnection, because it is not dependant on the seeker acheiving any particular state, because all states are already Oneness manifest! This may work for seekers who are disillusioned with paths and practises or those that have always had a sense that things are perfect just as they already are.

In terms of connection it doesn't matter that there is only understanding and no resonance, for it must already be Oneness only understanding and not resonating!

It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

Agreement is not required. The point of this exchange for me is mutual understanding. so I hope this is making things clearer.

jonesboy
13-11-2017, 03:57 PM
You misunderstand. All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

In another post you seemed unclear about how nonduality may be helpful for some seekers. Let me try to clarify. If there is a resonance between the seeker and the idea (each having a vibration/frequency) it is obvious how that may end a feeling of disconnection, because it is not dependant on the seeker acheiving any particular state, because all states are already Oneness manifest! This may work for seekers who are disillusioned with paths and practises or those that have always had a sense that things are perfect just as they already are.

In terms of connection it doesn't matter that there is only understanding and no resonance, for it must already be Oneness only understanding and not resonating!

It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

Agreement is not required. The point of this exchange for me is mutual understanding. so I hope this is making things clearer.

I prefer non dual.

With that being said, it is the goal to realize that you are that essence which is all things, that is arises from you, is you. That within you, that you are all of creation and beyond. It is all light, which is you.

The goal is to let go of the obstructions/upset/attachments to get to that realization.

It is not a thinking, a concept it is a being.

Kashmir Shaivism is really good at explaining this process. Would you like some quotes to help with this?

iamthat
13-11-2017, 06:59 PM
It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

This reads as if including all as Oneness manifest is simply a mental judgement on whatever is presenting itself. There is value in having the mental understanding that all appearances are manifestations of an underlying Oneness. But when we actually realise Oneness as a reality then there is no need to ask ourselves anything, there is no need to try to include all as Oneness manifest. There is simply Oneness within which all things arise. This is not a condition of mental understanding.

Peace.

sentient
13-11-2017, 08:39 PM
Kashmir Shaivism is really good at explaining this process. Would you like some quotes to help with this?
Could you perhaps start a new thread explaining what Kashmir Shaivism is and how it explains the process?

blossomingtree
13-11-2017, 11:31 PM
You misunderstand. All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

In another post you seemed unclear about how nonduality may be helpful for some seekers. Let me try to clarify. If there is a resonance between the seeker and the idea (each having a vibration/frequency) it is obvious how that may end a feeling of disconnection, because it is not dependant on the seeker acheiving any particular state, because all states are already Oneness manifest! This may work for seekers who are disillusioned with paths and practises or those that have always had a sense that things are perfect just as they already are.

In terms of connection it doesn't matter that there is only understanding and no resonance, for it must already be Oneness only understanding and not resonating!

It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

Agreement is not required. The point of this exchange for me is mutual understanding. so I hope this is making things clearer.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to review this topic further.

Unfortunately this explanation and your concept is antithetical to the "Oneness" "Non-duality" teachings of advanced spiritual traditions and another example of why your call for no expertise/no gurus/no teachers is so weak. i.e. it is evident that there is no practical understanding or experiential experience.

Let me explain something else. The Sages i.e. Gurus/teachers who you yourself picked this idea up from - first had the realization/experiential insight i.e. Gnosis into what genuine "non-duality/Oneness/Spirit/Universe/God/Consciousness" etc was - from there they used what means they had to "teach" i.e. words to do the best they could to 'point'

Hence, their words have the flavor and accuracy of Truth.

What you are proposing is to take a concept, forgo any expertise of genuine realization and try to mark the word into your world. Hence the inability to take challenge, trying to frame any logical analysis to your premises as "personal attacks" {Help!!!} etc.

i.e. Non-duality when not adopted through a genuine course of spiritual practice will always be weak, insubstantial, unable to withstand challenge, and moreso perhaps the least appealing point for an aspirant - it will always only remain a concept. Furthermore, it lacks any of the actual consequences of spiritual realization. It involves an actual shift in consciousness, God-Self and the like. It is not used as a concept to overlay onto the subjective world - "Oh this person is an idiot, but it is all Oneness so hallelujah perfection"

Anyway, back to my original post, which you tried to deflect by crying "personal attack" (funny considering you are posing as some authority figure) - you posit not requiring a Guru and at the same time you inherently position yourself as a Guru/Teacher. Not the first, but please at least be open minded about different paths for different people. {"No, Jesus, again NO!"} :D

Here are words from a teacher who do/did realize "Oneness" and "discrimination" and decided to speak to help others through encouraging paths of genuine inquiry:

Nisargadatta Maharaj: When you go beyond awareness, there is a state of non-duality, in which there is no cognition, only pure being. In the state of non-duality, all separation ceases.

In the stillness of the mind, I saw myself as I am: unbound.

When you go deep inside nothing is all there is. There is no 'I am'. The 'I am' merges in the Absolute.

PS Jyotir made some good points, are you ever going to respond to him?

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 12:16 AM
No matter how many guru's or teachers you associate with if it doesn't affect your essence for the better then you are wasting your time, you can change the label but the ingredients remain the same and visible for all to see.....

' You will know them by their fruits '

Nice quote, sky123, for balance you should probably add no matter how many gurus or teachers you don't associate with!

Also, this assumes you know what fruits mean - ill will comes in many forms :hug3:

Iamit
14-11-2017, 02:56 AM
Thank you for giving me this opportunity to review this topic further.

Unfortunately this explanation and your concept is antithetical to the "Oneness" "Non-duality" teachings of advanced spiritual traditions and another example of why your call for no expertise/no gurus/no teachers is so weak. i.e. it is evident that there is no practical understanding or experiential experience.

Let me explain something else. The Sages i.e. Gurus/teachers who you yourself picked this idea up from - first had the realization/experiential insight i.e. Gnosis into what genuine "non-duality/Oneness/Spirit/Universe/God/Consciousness" etc was - from there they used what means they had to "teach" i.e. words to do the best they could to 'point'

Hence, their words have the flavor and accuracy of Truth.

What you are proposing is to take a concept, forgo any expertise of genuine realization and try to mark the word into your world. Hence the inability to take challenge, trying to frame any logical analysis to your premises as "personal attacks" {Help!!!} etc.

i.e. Non-duality when not adopted through a genuine course of spiritual practice will always be weak, insubstantial, unable to withstand challenge, and moreso perhaps the least appealing point for an aspirant - it will always only remain a concept. Furthermore, it lacks any of the actual consequences of spiritual realization. It involves an actual shift in consciousness, God-Self and the like. It is not used as a concept to overlay onto the subjective world - "Oh this person is an idiot, but it is all Oneness so hallelujah perfection"

Anyway, back to my original post, which you tried to deflect by crying "personal attack" (funny considering you are posing as some authority figure) - you posit not requiring a Guru and at the same time you inherently position yourself as a Guru/Teacher. Not the first, but please at least be open minded about different paths for different people. {"No, Jesus, again NO!"} :D

Here are words from a teacher who do/did realize "Oneness" and "discrimination" and decided to speak to help others through encouraging paths of genuine inquiry:

Nisargadatta Maharaj: When you go beyond awareness, there is a state of non-duality, in which there is no cognition, only pure being. In the state of non-duality, all separation ceases.

In the stillness of the mind, I saw myself as I am: unbound.

When you go deep inside nothing is all there is. There is no 'I am'. The 'I am' merges in the Absolute.

PS Jyotir made some good points, are you ever going to respond to him?

You miss the point which is simply that what you think is relevant to end your spiritual search, may not be relevant for others. Even worse, by insisting that it is relevant for others, you place obstacles in their way which may not be relevant at all for them. Do not condemn others as lacking for having a different approach to yours. One size does not fit all.

Like most of your responses Joytir's post was a focus on the person with no attempt to address the issues. You will always have an opportunity to address the issues, just not the other nonsense as though you know me which of course you do not.

iamthat
14-11-2017, 03:15 AM
To the moderators. Is there no moderation here to prevent posts like the above which focus on the person rather than the issues?

And then I read a later posting by Iamit:

All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

So I guess that even the posts we don't like are also perfect manifestations of Oneness.

Peace.

Iamit
14-11-2017, 03:20 AM
This reads as if including all as Oneness manifest is simply a mental judgement on whatever is presenting itself. There is value in having the mental understanding that all appearances are manifestations of an underlying Oneness. But when we actually realise Oneness as a reality then there is no need to ask ourselves anything, there is no need to try to include all as Oneness manifest. There is simply Oneness within which all things arise. This is not a condition of mental understanding.

Peace.

The state you describe may not immediatly occur after an initial resonance with All is One. There may follow a period where the seeker finds it difficult to accept some aspects of self, or the manifestation around us, as Oneness manifest. There can be questioning, something like I have described, where there is a tension between the resonance and the acceptance in which acceptance may win through and is completed. The resonance is then consolidated, something like in the way you describe it.

Iamit
14-11-2017, 03:37 AM
And then I read a later posting by Iamit:

All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

So I guess that even the posts we don't like are also perfect manifestations of Oneness.

Peace.

Yes and so are the appeals to the moderators:)......and so are the moderators:) Each the other and the One Love in Action dreaming difference where there is none.

Fun isn't it. Oneness has a sense of humour by manifesting all the different actors and yet playing all the parts 'Itself':)

Iamit
14-11-2017, 03:55 AM
I prefer non dual.

With that being said, it is the goal to realize that you are that essence which is all things, that is arises from you, is you. That within you, that you are all of creation and beyond. It is all light, which is you.

The goal is to let go of the obstructions/upset/attachments to get to that realization.

It is not a thinking, a concept it is a being.

Kashmir Shaivism is really good at explaining this process. Would you like some quotes to help with this?

It really doesn't matter whether it is conceptual or not. Thats just another exclusion or blind spot to seeing all as Oneness manifest, including concepts and understanding. In that sense whatever condition you might imagine for connection to Oneness does not have to be met.

Thank you for the offer of information. Please post whatever you are referring to.

sky
14-11-2017, 04:34 AM
Nice quote, sky123, for balance you should probably add no matter how many gurus or teachers you don't associate with!

Also, this assumes you know what fruits mean - ill will comes in many forms :hug3:


Ill will does come by many names :smile:

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 05:13 AM
You miss the point which is simply that what you think is relevant to end your spiritual search, may not be relevant for others. Even worse, by insisting that it is relevant for others, you place obstacles in their way which may not be relevant at all for them. Do not condemn others as lacking for having a different approach to yours. One size does not fit all.

Like most of your responses Joytir's post was a focus on the person with no attempt to address the issues. You will always have an opportunity to address the issues, just not the other nonsense as though you know me which of course you do not.

Are you talking to yourself? Because it sure sounds like - on a few levels...

There is not a state of "Being in Non-duality" as opposed to being in duality, as though it were possible to be in one or the other:) The whole of the manifestation is duality. There is not a part of the manifestation called nonduality that you can be in:)

Whilst in duality, you can encounter a concept called non duality which asserts that despite the very convincing, solid looking, appearance of difference that is duality, ALL is in fact ONE.

Having said that, there is the idea of enlightenment, which is often taken to mean that duality has been trancended and an apparent separate looking person is in fact no longer separate but has rather become One with everything.

But then again its not possible to know whether someone is enlightened or not. There are certain characteristics which are supposed to exemplify it, but the mind can easily construct these and hide behind as the separate self, contradicting every one of them:) It can often be very advantageous for the mind to do this, as there can be many benefits in terms of motor cars and other gifts.

:)

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 05:21 AM
Ill will does come by many names :smile:

You could frame it like that - that would include conceit, anger, hate, jealousy, but often it is much more subtle and that is what I sense in you.

I like the quotes you bring to the threads, sky, but you also seem to be sniping in more than one instance - for whatever reason that obviously brings you joy and gives you great contentment in particular. So be it :hug3:

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 05:26 AM
Like most of your responses Joytir's post was a focus on the person with no attempt to address the issues. You will always have an opportunity to address the issues, just not the other nonsense as though you know me which of course you do not.

Actually Jyotir brought up very pertinent points and addressed the very themes and issues you are conveying, but perhaps it was inconvenient for you, perhaps due to the insecurity of your beliefs {you mentioned this as a reason before so it logically flows, it comes from your psyche and is applicable to you, something which was increasingly clear as we conversed}.

The issues were raised but you have consistently sidestepped them, preferring to converse with yourself or at yourself and attacking anyone who questions the logic or validity of your concepts with shadow reasons.

Oneness is not stupidity, and we can be thankful for that - it is a full body mind spirit realization which shifts consciousness and yields tremendous wisdom and power for the aspirant - which is why it should not be demeaned or diminished through small, fearful and conceptual minds.

Take care.

sky
14-11-2017, 05:35 AM
You could frame it like that - that would include conceit, anger, hate, jealousy, but often it is much more subtle and that is what I sense in you.

I like the quotes you bring to the threads, sky, but you also seem to be sniping in more than one instance - for whatever reason that obviously brings you joy and gives you great contentment in particular. So be it :hug3:


The mind is what it thinks, to make true, think true.....

sky
14-11-2017, 08:27 AM
Is there anything but ' Oneness ' We can feel separated from it but it's still there regardless....

revolver
14-11-2017, 08:45 AM
Is there anything but ' Oneness ' We can feel separated from it but it's still there regardless....
Yes all is One, its simple isn't it ?.:smile:

sky
14-11-2017, 09:20 AM
Yes all is One, its simple isn't it ?.:smile:


Why do people make it so complicated, :icon_eek:
You need a guru, you need a teacher, you need to meditate etc etc...

jonesboy
14-11-2017, 12:53 PM
It really doesn't matter whether it is conceptual or not.


Of course it matters.

That is the entire point of spirituality to move one beyond a thought, a concept to the realization of.

Thats just another exclusion or blind spot to seeing all as Oneness manifest, including concepts and understanding. In that sense whatever condition you might imagine for connection to Oneness does not have to be met.

Thank you for the offer of information. Please post whatever you are referring to.

That is a concept you are pushing.

If all you are doing is thinking all is Oneness so everything is ok and perfect they way it is because it is all oneness.

That is a mental concept.

When one has realized that they are everything and it all arises from within. When one can share that oneness with another that is the realization of.

The spiritual paths, the practices are designed to move one beyond the concept to the realization of and along the way the improvement in the quality of ones life.

Also for those interested Oneness and non duality are very different concepts in the spiritual path.

Oneness is that there is just One and the goal of the spiritual path is one of cessation, the end of suffering and a returning to the One.

Non dual is that everything has the same essence but we are each unique in that expression of that oneness based on our unique karma. We become One like Siva or as Jesus put it.

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

The evidence is the realization of.. not a concept of...

sky
14-11-2017, 02:05 PM
I see non-duality as referring to the absence of separation not the realization of oneness... it's more about the falsehood of separation.

Jyotir
14-11-2017, 04:23 PM
I see non-duality as referring to the absence of separation not the realization of oneness... it's more about the falsehood of separation.

It's equivalent, the same result - when realized - although in and through 2 different paths/approaches - and this is why so much confusion (and necessity to negate what is not one's personal preference).

What you describe in your quote above are 2 approaches:

"absence of separation" = the 'Neti-neti' path. (not this not that)

"realization of oneness" = the 'iti-iti' path (all is Brahman)

Its the same.
The same result.
The same realization.
by Different means.
In fact, be bold and switch what comes after the =.
No difference.

~ J

Iamit
14-11-2017, 05:57 PM
Of course it matters.

That is the entire point of spirituality to move one beyond a thought, a concept to the realization of.



That is a concept you are pushing.

If all you are doing is thinking all is Oneness so everything is ok and perfect they way it is because it is all oneness.

That is a mental concept.

When one has realized that they are everything and it all arises from within. When one can share that oneness with another that is the realization of.

The spiritual paths, the practices are designed to move one beyond the concept to the realization of and along the way the improvement in the quality of ones life.

Also for those interested Oneness and non duality are very different concepts in the spiritual path.

Oneness is that there is just One and the goal of the spiritual path is one of cessation, the end of suffering and a returning to the One.

Non dual is that everything has the same essence but we are each unique in that expression of that oneness based on our unique karma. We become One like Siva or as Jesus put it.

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

The evidence is the realization of.. not a concept of...

Not so.

It depends how one defines what one is seeking. For example if the definition is to end feeling disconnected from Oneness, then nothing matters because whatever you come up with as mattering is always already Oneness manifesting as that!!! Including not realizing any of this!!

jonesboy
14-11-2017, 06:46 PM
Not so.

It depends how one defines what one is seeking. For example if the definition is to end feeling disconnected from Oneness, then nothing matters because whatever you come up with as mattering is always already Oneness manifesting as that!!! Including not realizing any of this!!

That is a thought.

Of course it matters. You have either realized it or it is a fairy tale, a concept a belief that you are choosing to believe in. Not one that is you.

Pain, upsets are what manifests when you are attached. When you are still caught up in the belief.

Moving beyond the local mind is a realization of and beyond the local mind.. beyond the upsets.

Saying something doesn't matter.. is suppression.

It doesn't matter because I believe A or B..

Does not improve ones life.

True being or the realization of or in Buddhism true Wisdom is the fruit of the path.

It is beyond the concept of a thing.

sentient
14-11-2017, 08:53 PM
Non dual is that everything has the same essence but we are each unique in that expression of that oneness based on our unique karma. We become One like Siva or as Jesus put it.

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established , and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, [I]'It is motion and rest.'"
Wow! Is that from the Bible?
Never heard of it, but then again I don’t read the Bible.

Thankfully I do not have resistance to what Jesus represented, but it cannot be forgotten what so called Christians did to Shamans.
My own unique karmic residue puts: 'It is motion and rest' as: “It is the World Pole”.

Getting very biographical here:
First as a child you realize "non-duality" i.e. the same Spirit Essence with your Elder (your first “Guru”), which comes from your age old animist (everything has Spirit) beliefs – realized and besides, non-duality IS the “World Pole” view.

Then you meet your second “Guru”, a Christian integrated Shamanic person in your primary school, who by example shows you how to summon the Spirit, the Energy of that non-dual view.
Well, that is the Thunderbird/Holy Ghost, same thing really, but in different cultural wrappings.

When the Thunderbird or the Holy Ghost or the Cosmic Blue Pancake (Tengrist belief of the Eternal Blue Sky) starts to hover about you, asking if it can initiate you the 10th Gate (?) has opened. In other words, I think it is the Crown Chakra, but Crown Chakra in Shamanic mythology means the opening/smoke hole of the tent (the top of your ascend on the World Pole).

Once accepted, the Thunderbird Force Field or the Holy Ghost or the Cosmic Blue Pancake comes upon you like a ton of bricks and you have what is called the Shamanic Death or the Born Again experience.

This is when Non-duality as Oneness is realized.
But now that “Oneness” is your “Guru” and every situation in your life is a Guru.
So you either “make love with your Guru or become paranoid, claustrophobic and kill him”. (Metaphorically speaking).
Getting into Energies is very dangerous business. Once you get into it, there is a way of turning back, but not without dire consequences.

P.S. That Clear Light, is also a Sound, (that much I once upon a time realized).

jonesboy
14-11-2017, 09:05 PM
Wow! Is that from the Bible?
Never heard of it, but then again I don’t read the Bible.

Getting into Energies is very dangerous business. Once you get into it, there is a way of turning back, but not without dire consequences.

P.S. That Clear Light, is also a Sound, (that much I once upon a time realized).

That quote is from the Gospel of Thomas

The text
http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/477-gospel-of-thomas-text/

Discussion on the verses
http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/241-gospel-of-thomas-discussion/


If you haven't realized you, your body, all things are energy.. That essence... you haven't realized Oneness.

I would also agree that doing any type of spiritual practice without a solid understanding of what you are doing can be dangerous. With the right foundation... on the other hand it can be amazing.

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 09:21 PM
Yes all is One, its simple isn't it ?.:smile:

Simple to say, simple to conceptualize, simple to "understand" - you could teach a kid the concept actually :)

Harder to live.

Harder still to {genuinely} realize it - and transform one's entire consciousness, way of being, vision and being - that is an Adept.

The energies of ignorance, delusion, separation are very subtle..

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 09:33 PM
Once accepted, the Thunderbird Force Field or the Holy Ghost or the Cosmic Blue Pancake comes upon you like a ton of bricks and you have what is called the Shamanic Death or the Born Again experience.

This is when Non-duality as Oneness is realized.
But now that “Oneness” is your “Guru” and every situation in your life is a Guru.


Hi sentient,

I am interested in this - can you please further elaborate? How does it work in your world view -- whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

Thanks,

BT

sentient
14-11-2017, 09:42 PM
That quote is from the Gospel of Thomas

If you haven't realized you, your body, all things are energy.. That essence... you haven't realized Oneness.
Agreeing with you.

I would also agree that doing any type of spiritual practice without a solid understanding of what you are doing can be dangerous. With the right foundation... on the other hand it can be amazing.
Yes, well, this is the problem of having karmic Shamanic energy residue.
It doesn’t help having a Shaman on your family tree, you do need a living guide from within your own tradition when things get shaky.

sky
14-11-2017, 09:45 PM
There are various interpretations on 'motion and rest' , I personally understand it to be Motion- always changing energy and Rest- never changing consciouness..

sentient
14-11-2017, 09:50 PM
Hi sentient,

I am interested in this - can you please further elaborate? How does it work in your world view -- whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

Thanks,

BT

What particularly do you want to know about it?

Through initiation, you become energetically re-arranged.

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 09:58 PM
What it involved / how it felt i.e. was experienced. I am just curious if there are any parallels.

blossomingtree
14-11-2017, 09:59 PM
Is there anything but ' Oneness ' We can feel separated from it but it's still there regardless....

That's true...like the sky...

sentient
14-11-2017, 10:22 PM
What it involved / how it felt i.e. was experienced. I am just curious if there are any parallels.
I wrote about it in this post:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1650486&postcount=36
Except I am not a devout Christian.

A similar scenario:
You hear the drum, it shifts you - the blood red markings on the white background of the drum totally alert you - you hear the bells.

Shock awakening. Surrender.

The Thunderbird Force-field comes upon you.

You Die. (You enter the Thunderbird’s belly).

When the Force-field ****s you back into your body, when you re-awake or come to, you are energetically re-arranged.

Iamit
14-11-2017, 11:58 PM
That is a thought.

Of course it matters. You have either realized it or it is a fairy tale, a concept a belief that you are choosing to believe in. Not one that is you.

Pain, upsets are what manifests when you are attached. When you are still caught up in the belief.

Moving beyond the local mind is a realization of and beyond the local mind.. beyond the upsets.

Saying something doesn't matter.. is suppression.

It doesn't matter because I believe A or B..

Does not improve ones life.

True being or the realization of or in Buddhism true Wisdom is the fruit of the path.

It is beyond the concept of a thing.

From what you have said I understand your point of view in terms of how you define what is sought. I'm only interested in mutual understanding not a contest.

Do you understand why it makes no difference from the point of view described in my previous post? If not what is it you dont understand and i will try and clarify further.

Iamit
15-11-2017, 12:21 AM
Actually Jyotir brought up very pertinent points and addressed the very themes and issues you are conveying, but perhaps it was inconvenient for you, perhaps due to the insecurity of your beliefs {you mentioned this as a reason before so it logically flows, it comes from your psyche and is applicable to you, something which was increasingly clear as we conversed}.

The issues were raised but you have consistently sidestepped them, preferring to converse with yourself or at yourself and attacking anyone who questions the logic or validity of your concepts with shadow reasons.

Oneness is not stupidity, and we can be thankful for that - it is a full body mind spirit realization which shifts consciousness and yields tremendous wisdom and power for the aspirant - which is why it should not be demeaned or diminished through small, fearful and conceptual minds.

Take care.

Ok as there is no moderation here, it seems you are allowed to get away with trolling your desparate getting personal nonsense, and closing down discussion which is of course your objective in protection of your delicate beliefs. Goodbye and good luck :)

blossomingtree
15-11-2017, 12:48 AM
I wrote about it in this post:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1650486&postcount=36
Except I am not a devout Christian.

A similar scenario:
You hear the drum, it shifts you - the blood red markings on the white background of the drum totally alert you - you hear the bells.

Shock awakening. Surrender.

The Thunderbird Force-field comes upon you.

You Die. (You enter the Thunderbird’s belly).

When the Force-field ****s you back into your body, when you re-awake or come to, you are energetically re-arranged.

Hey thanks sentient!

I'll reflect on this a bit more.

:smile:

BT

revolver
15-11-2017, 12:48 AM
Why do people make it so complicated, :icon_eek:
You need a guru, you need a teacher, you need to meditate etc etc...
Yes that is true, but only in hindsight, if you are not awakened then you wouldn't know that it was so easy, and hence the great struggle by many.

revolver
15-11-2017, 12:51 AM
Simple to say, simple to conceptualize, simple to "understand" - you could teach a kid the concept actually :)

Harder to live.

Harder still to {genuinely} realize it - and transform one's entire consciousness, way of being, vision and being - that is an Adept.

The energies of ignorance, delusion, separation are very subtle..
No, you are making it too difficult, if you have experienced beyond the mind you wouldn't be saying what you said.

revolver
15-11-2017, 12:54 AM
I see non-duality as referring to the absence of separation not the realization of oneness... it's more about the falsehood of separation.
What's the difference, the realization of Oneness is also as important as seeing non-duality as referring to the absence of separation, there is no fixed law, if you need a law then you are further away than ever.

blossomingtree
15-11-2017, 12:55 AM
No, you are making it too difficult, if you have experienced beyond the mind you wouldn't be saying what you said.

hehe Please pray tell me how it is with you and so I can see where you are coming from

What is "beyond the mind" when you use this term? :biggrin:

blossomingtree
15-11-2017, 12:56 AM
What's the difference, the realization of Oneness is also as important as seeing non-duality as referring to the absence of separation, there is no fixed law, if you need a law then you are further away than ever.

Pst. Jyotir already explained it and hit the bullseye :icon_eek:

revolver
15-11-2017, 01:01 AM
hehe Please pray tell me how it is with you and so I can see where you are coming from

What is "beyond the mind" when you use this term? :biggrin:
We are the Source, or Consciousness, the mind body organism arises from Consciousness as a wave arises from the ocean, the wave is the ocean believing itself to be separate from the ocean, can you see where I am coming from ?.

revolver
15-11-2017, 01:02 AM
Pst. Jyotir already explained it and hit the bullseye :icon_eek:
There are many ways of explaining it, all paths are the same.

blossomingtree
15-11-2017, 04:14 AM
Cross linking these threads. http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=118415

blossomingtree
15-11-2017, 04:43 AM
Ok as there is no moderation here, it seems you are allowed to get away with trolling your desparate getting personal nonsense, and closing down discussion which is of course your objective in protection of your delicate beliefs. Goodbye and good luck :)

I am still awaiting your response to my points above. Thanks :smile:

blossomingtree
15-11-2017, 04:46 AM
We are the Source, or Consciousness, the mind body organism arises from Consciousness as a wave arises from the ocean, the wave is the ocean believing itself to be separate from the ocean, can you see where I am coming from ?.

Mm. ......

blossomingtree
15-11-2017, 04:51 AM
I wrote about it in this post:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1650486&postcount=36
Except I am not a devout Christian.

A similar scenario:
You hear the drum, it shifts you - the blood red markings on the white background of the drum totally alert you - you hear the bells.

Shock awakening. Surrender.

The Thunderbird Force-field comes upon you.

You Die. (You enter the Thunderbird’s belly).

When the Force-field ****s you back into your body, when you re-awake or come to, you are energetically re-arranged.

Ahh OK I see what you are saying

In my upbringing, such an experience is not called the Great Death, as far as I am aware {I think they do have a term for it but whatever}.

I see the Great Death as when one's karma unravels completely and the person is born anew - literally innocence.

Granted, we have to use different words to express it especially coming from different backgrounds.

In my upbringing, it is cognized that there are many different experiences, including of Pure Unadultered Oneness (for lack of a better term for now), but if it comes and goes, it's not yet It.

Thanks for your time,

BT

jonesboy
15-11-2017, 12:56 PM
From what you have said I understand your point of view in terms of how you define what is sought. I'm only interested in mutual understanding not a contest.

Do you understand why it makes no difference from the point of view described in my previous post? If not what is it you dont understand and i will try and clarify further.

Hi Iamit,

I don't believe it is a contest either :smile:

Yes I understand your pov I just very much disagree.

You can't get beyond thoughts with another thought.

Thinking everything is oneness is not a realization nor will it move you farther along the path.

For me the progression has been along these lines.

A friend of mine provided this and I thought I would share.

While I can provide mappings to other traditions/frameworks for those who have questions, the descriptions are an attempt to be traditionless. Additionally, for any of those that have the capacity/interest, all such layers have the potential to be demonstrated. For those who think of it in mind terms, it is easiest to think of as local mind is a subset of universal/shared mind. They are also not necessarily linear in level.



level zero - this is not really a level. It could also be called the primordial. Outside or beyond universal mind.



level 1 - base manifest existence. All physical stuff.

level 2 - base emotions. Things like anger and fear are the driving nature of this level of local mind.

level 3 - Individual sense of self. Think of it as the level of most egotistical people. 90% of humans.

level 4 - Opening of heart. This is a huge step and what many consider awakening. It is the fundamental shift of moving from being focused on your individual needs to truly caring about others. A good example is a truly loving parent.

level 5 - Subconscious connection to others and your local surroundings. It this level one tends to feel and sense energy of beyond their local body. But the conscious mind does not yet know how to distinguish between what is outside, and what is energy spilling over and creating images or emotions that are experienced in the (local) mind.

level 6 - Huge step as one begins to actually see and consciously notice what you could call universal mind/universe. Some call this open 3rd eye stuff. Beginning of true Astral level activity. But it is still based in the local mind view of sense of self.

level 7 - Classically called the open crown, this is when you start to get cracks in the local mind version of sense of self. One starts to notice/touch the divine/light. Anyone who reaches this stage will often experience a divine being (or guru) to help them cross over into the light/divine. No fear of death at this stage.

level 8 - Light/Divine with out differentiation. Rather than a linear level, it is much more like a quantum leap. The local bubble of mind/sense of self has been cracked. Direct access to universal layer, but no ability to differentiate. You feel you are one with everyone, but can't really access or help on individual basis. It is like "being" rather than "seeing". This is also called the "soul" level by many, and the person "radiates" light.

level 9 - Light with beginning differentiation. You are one with all humans and begin to integrate with plants and animals. Still mostly local.

level 10 - Expansion has continued to more planetary and includes inanimate objects. Can directly access all beings within your sphere of being to various degrees of refinement.

level 11 - Beingness has expanded across what people call different dimensions. Possible to create and play with pocket universes and have astral level people visit them.

level 12 - boundary of what people call time and space. At this level, you can perceive forwards or backwards in time. Also, the historical limit of physical form/manifestation for maintaining human form.

level 13 - at this level there is no longer and sense of male and female at a human level. Beginning of what some traditions call the "god realms".

level 14-16 - Higher form realms, nothing really easy to describe. Many divine beings or gods reside there.

level 17 and above - formless realms of potential. Can find some higher immortals and divine beings residing there.


Any thoughts or questions?

sky
15-11-2017, 01:37 PM
Quote jonesboy 'Thinking everything is oneness is not a realization nor will it move you farther along the path.'

Do you mean yourself in the ' you ' ?
As you cannot speak for all I presume it does.....

sentient
15-11-2017, 06:03 PM
Ahh OK I see what you are saying

In my upbringing, such an experience is not called the Great Death, as far as I am aware {I think they do have a term for it but whatever}.

I see the Great Death as when one's karma unravels completely and the person is born anew - literally innocence.

Granted, we have to use different words to express it especially coming from different backgrounds.

In my upbringing, it is cognized that there are many different experiences, including of Pure Unadultered Oneness (for lack of a better term for now), but if it comes and goes, it's not yet It.

Thanks for your time,

BT

I have got no idea what the “Great Death” might be.

With “death” I meant awakening, but like in two parts.
The jolt/shock makes you aware, conscious of the Source.
The other (the “death” part) connects you to your awakening Energetically.

People often talk about energy as "Kundalini rising", but I do not understand that nor can I therefore relate to it.
I only relate to "Spirit descent" through Crown Chakra, and that is felt/experienced as "death".

Iamit
16-11-2017, 05:17 AM
Hi Iamit,

I don't believe it is a contest either :smile:

Yes I understand your pov I just very much disagree.

You can't get beyond thoughts with another thought.

Thinking everything is oneness is not a realization nor will it move you farther along the path.

For me the progression has been along these lines.

Can you see why whether it is a thought or not is irrelevant? Both the state of thinking or not thinking are Oneness manifest. Neither one can connect you more than the other. The same applies to getting further along this or that path or whether any of this is realized or not. Both, and all states are already Oneness manifest. So getting to your destination is no more connected to not embarking at all.

This applies if connection is what is sought by the seeker which I doubt would be enough to be regarded as enlightenment by most. If connection is not the concern, then none of this is relevant for the seeker.

For connection, getting beyond thought is irrelevant. can you see why that is so?

jonesboy
16-11-2017, 01:09 PM
Can you see why whether it is a thought or not is irrelevant? Both the state of thinking or not thinking are Oneness manifest. Neither one can connect you more than the other. The same applies to getting further along this or that path or whether any of this is realized or not. Both, and all states are already Oneness manifest. So getting to your destination is no more connected to not embarking at all.

This applies if connection is what is sought by the seeker which I doubt would be enough to be regarded as enlightenment by most. If connection is not the concern, then none of this is relevant for the seeker.

For connection, getting beyond thought is irrelevant. can you see why that is so?

Can't you see just by reality of what is going on in your life and all around you that your theory is wrong?

Of course it matters if it is realized or not. If you haven't realized it, all it is, is a day dream.

You are trying to talk like someone on top of the mountain, who has realized it all and says the path is just being, non doing. That is true but the depth to get to that point, that realization is beyond the concept of you as a person.

Everything has the same essence but are you aware of that essence? Can you look within and be the person next to you? The plant, or become one with Jesus and share that grace with another?

That is the realization of, it is not an everything is perfect we are all oneness so just stop doing anything because you are already oneness.

It is the realization that all traditions help one achieve.

Your path is do nothing and because you do nothing, nothing will ever change.

Which is really sad because amazing, life changing things do happen along the path to that realization and you are missing all of it.

Shivani Devi
16-11-2017, 01:32 PM
Let me chip in here with my 10 cents.

There is an experience which comes through the awareness that is related to knowledge (jnana) in which the concepts of 'self' and 'other' are perceived as a 'connection' or 'oneness' and the manifestation is akin to the attainment of Savikalpa Samadhi...the 'mind' is still there and the whole awareness is still present.

This is only the penultimate state, but it is not wrong/right in any way...it is merely an incomplete transition.

Then, there is the experience in which all awareness is totally lost with the absorption (laya) into pure consciousness (chit) and there is no more philosophical speculation of mind as to 'connection' or 'unity' because for that to happen, the duality of existence must represent in the first place...it is the point of no more words, nothing occupies the mental sphere and everything manifests and dissolves into the heart of creation simultaneously and this is the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

There is a lot I would like to say in this forum sometimes, but I can't put it into words...I try, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when I do. =/

jonesboy
16-11-2017, 02:11 PM
Let me chip in here with my 10 cents.

There is an experience which comes through the awareness that is related to knowledge (jnana) in which the concepts of 'self' and 'other' are perceived as a 'connection' or 'oneness' and the manifestation is akin to the attainment of Savikalpa Samadhi...the 'mind' is still there and the whole awareness is still present.

This is only the penultimate state, but it is not wrong/right in any way...it is merely an incomplete transition.

Then, there is the experience in which all awareness is totally lost with the absorption (laya) into pure consciousness (chit) and there is no more philosophical speculation of mind as to 'connection' or 'unity' because for that to happen, the duality of existence must represent in the first place...it is the point of no more words, nothing occupies the mental sphere and everything manifests and dissolves into the heart of creation simultaneously and this is the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

There is a lot I would like to say in this forum sometimes, but I can't put it into words...I try, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when I do. =/

Very true but understand that is all about meditation.

An example of how to achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi is with mindfulness.

Everyone is aware of the meditation practice of mindfulness, of watching ones thoughts. The finer points of mindfulness is that as one is observing it is the ego that is grasping at the observing of a thought.

To move beyond is to not even grasp at the creation of a thought, you don't notice it. It is just like the saying you are the sky and the clouds are your thoughts. The sky doesn't notice the clouds as they are created or as they moves through it.

When on can get to the point of just truly being, the mind not grasping at the creation of a thought or a vision or of anything going on. One is then kinda like transported to being one with the light.

More important than Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the realization in daily life Sahaja Samadhi.

Sahaja Samadhi is like Rigpa, those thoughts have become energy that flows through you. The thoughts can be silent or not, it doesn't matter as one can just reside in that energy which is thoughts and naturally be in the pristine clarity of the present moment.

Those flows one feels is everything and everyone. From here the path continues on because even those flows, feeling them is not being them and as one progresses that being becomes more and more.

Shivani Devi
16-11-2017, 02:28 PM
More important than Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the realization in daily life Sahaja Samadhi.

Sahaja Samadhi is like Rigpa, those thoughts have become energy that flows through you. The thoughts can be silent or not, it doesn't matter as one can just reside in that energy which is thoughts and naturally be in the pristine clarity of the present moment.

Exactly! and this is the point at which I find myself.

It is easy to become complacent within their own level of awareness and whilst I have transcended the mind, thought and all philosophical speculation through direct realisation of Brahman, I find myself like the proverbial Himalayan Yogi who is happy to just sit in his cave and meditate until Maha Samadhi is attained. :redface:

I sometimes allow myself the luxury of trying to act/behave like an ignorant person who knows no better...and you have been witness to all that, but 'making the bliss 'stick' (as running would say) requires more effort than attaining the bliss in the first place - and it is the origin for all my physical maladies.

Attaining Nirvikalpa Samadhi is one thing...to make the experience effortless, another...but I'm burning off karma and samskaras here...and you know, once the power supply is disconnected from the fan, the blades will keep slowly rotating for some time until they stop.

Yeah, but we both know what is going on...what can 'come through' if I just surrender a lot more to it than I do and not try to assert my own identity in spite of that experience.

Shivani Devi
16-11-2017, 03:15 PM
An example of how to achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi is with mindfulness.

Everyone is aware of the meditation practice of mindfulness, of watching ones thoughts. The finer points of mindfulness is that as one is observing it is the ego that is grasping at the observing of a thought.Another thing I would also like to add here...

There is a point at which Dhyana and Dharana merge, it is the ultimate mindfulness technique, in which thoughts don't have to be watched...it is called trataka. It is the distraction of mind from those thoughts which arise.

I am a natural gazer and my meditation consists of staring at a candle flame until I can bring the glow into my Ajna Chakra...staring at my own eyes in a mirror until I can no longer see my face...immersing myself in a yantra or mandala until my whole conscious awareness is drawn into the centre of it...and if any thoughts arise, I bring my attention back to that awareness...eventually, they get the hint and stop...and then 4 hours passes like 4 minutes.

I also do pranayama including Nadi Shodhana, Sheetali and Sheetkari depending on which nostril the prana is flowing predominantly...then, when thoughts come, the awareness goes straight back to the breath.

These things are the whole 'mainstay' of my spiritual sadhana, along with worshiping Shiva...

...but I digress.

jonesboy
16-11-2017, 04:12 PM
Very nice Shivani.

Nadi Shodhana and Sheetali are both very gentle pranayama techniques.

If you would like to try something a little more powerful I would like to suggest the following.

Disclaimer - the below practice is usually done for the first time with the energetic support of a lineage teacher. This page has been charged with a light/energy transmission to give such support. If anyone has any specific questions or concerns, feel free to contact me.

Primordial - Foundation Energy Practice - Internal Fire

Sit cross legged (or in a chair) with back straight in a comfortable position. Place your tongue on the roof of your mouth and take a few deep, relaxing breaths. Rest your hands in your lap and let the tension drop from your body with each breath.

Picture the sun high above your head. Feel the radiant warmth of the sun for a few moments. Then feel a powerful sunbeam coming straight down from the sun and hitting directly on the top of your head.

Feel the warmth of the sunbeam on the top of your head. When you have the warmth, imagine that the light starts flowing through into your head, filling the third eye and sparkling as it does. Then continuing down, tickling your throat as it goes by, and down into your heart. Feel the warmth in your heart as it radiates out to fill your entire chest cavity. Make it as bright as possible.

When this expanded heart space is a bright as the sun... Send it deep down through your legs and feet into the ground. Then push deeper and deeper like a laser beam into the center of the earth.

When the beam hits the center of the earth, feel it hit the magma, which then returns a powerful flow up and up, through the earth and back up through your feet and legs and exploding into your heart. Feel your heart grow. Feel it grow until it encompasses your entire body. Rest in your expanded heart for a few moments. Then send a beam back up to the sun and feel it respond with another flow back down to you.
Know yourself as the center of an energy loop connecting the Earth and the Sun through your body and based in your heart.

Like fire rising and water flowing down.

Hold this image as brightly and clearly as you can and give the divine intent for it to continue flowing in that way. Your subconscious will now maintain the circuit flow, while you continue with daily activities.

This practice should be done eight times daily until it becomes stabilized (usually around a month). There is no need for concurrent repetitions and it may be done at any quiet time during day.

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/349-primordial-foundation-energy-practice-internal-fire/&tab=comments#comment-1499

I typically tell people to start with 5 mins of Internal Fire prior to meditation and work your time upwards to 10 - 15 minutes prior to meditation.

The above is a very effective practice. Try it and let me know what you get :)

sky
16-11-2017, 04:35 PM
I first started practising 'internal fire' around 25 years ago, I would like to point out it does not require a teacher/guru of tibetan lineage, anyone who is practising energy techniques can explain the basics, it is visualization, nothing more. Btw you can do it while standing which is very effective as you can feel the energy from the ground, barefoot is best...

jonesboy
16-11-2017, 07:41 PM
I first started practising 'internal fire' around 25 years ago, I would like to point out it does not require a teacher/guru of tibetan lineage, anyone who is practising energy techniques can explain the basics, it is visualization, nothing more. Btw you can do it while standing which is very effective as you can feel the energy from the ground, barefoot is best...

Please show me a reference to internal fire anywhere that is not from Jeff. Internal fire is only a few years old :)

A transmission is used in Buddhism for instance to help one with the practice. While not needed it can help a lot!

Also, pranayama is much more than visualization. That is only part of it.

blossomingtree
16-11-2017, 09:09 PM
sentient:

Thank you for your answer.

blossomingtree
16-11-2017, 09:10 PM
A transmission is used in Buddhism for instance to help one with the practice. While not needed it can help a lot!


Who is your teacher / lineage / transmission authority out of curiousity?

jonesboy
16-11-2017, 09:29 PM
Who is your teacher / lineage / transmission authority out of curiousity?

A friend that is realized like I have been talking about for pages now.

Transmissions are also part of what I call sharing the light.

Here he is sharing his experience.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42858-my-experience/

Here is a Q&A about our practices from members of the forum.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41978-q-a-for-jeff/

Here is another that we share with new people.

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/396-questions-from-the-road/

Here is an example of some of the terms and practices.

Q1- When you "hug" someone what are you doing with them, ie energetically what is going on



Before I would ever hug, when I first interact with people, I will often ask if I can "stop by" or "check on them". When I stop by, I do not astrally visit or remotely send energy. It is more like that I deeply know that nothing separates me from the other person, and hence nothing does. It is more about what I am focusing on, kind of like if you focus on an individual part of your body (like a fingernail or toe). So it becomes kind of like sharing presence (or space) with the other person. When focused, I can directly know/perceive the person's relative clarity and structure/openness of the energy/light body.

A hug would be an extension of above, kind of like adding active connection or engagement. Like with any physical hug, it can be simply social or it can be deep and heartfelt. Kind of like if you are having a bad day, and someone gives you a loving hug, it can help you release or let go because someone cares. An energetic hug is like that, but since I am sort of in the same space, it is not just an outside contact thing, but more like hug that energetically can touch all levels of your being.

But, the depth and power of a hug is really more found in the acceptance (and how much of) of the hug. And more powerfully, if one hugs back. Consciously hugging back sort of helps expand it all and take it to a higher level.

So at the simplest level, it is kind of like energetically sharing caring and love, with the person possibly accepting it, and then later returning it in kind of shared space of oneness.

One final note... A hug can feel so good (or powerful), that it is possible to become attached to the hug and energy rush itself.


Diving - This is a short hand term for a specific type of group meditation which is led by a group leader. Similar to the hug described above, it is kind of like a group hug with the leader providing the "space" for the group. The "diving" name relates to the practice taking the group deeper (or higher depending on your perspective) in consciousness which can be felt by the participants in the group. At these greater depths, the mind quiets, making it easier to release issue and fears. The practice itself is a modified form of practice from Kashmir Shaivism.

Merging - This is probably one of the most misunderstood terms of people that use it. Ultimately, a merge is a full overlap of consciousness with another being/person. Kind of like two concentric circles fully overlapping. But, being able to do a full overlap is very rare as the merger's own issues and fear limit the level of merge. Hence, what most people call a merge often becomes more of a hybrid of a merge and a hug.


Going light - It is kind of like people exist in a bubble of sense of self. To me, people (and beings) are more like obscured blobs of light, with those obscurations being the issue, fears and karma that keep one locked into that individual sense of sense. "Going light" is beginning to break down that bubble. It is very hard to describe without the personal realization, but one starts (if only for a moment) to shift from "seeing" to more "being". In more classical chakra terms, it would starting to open the eighth chakra (classic seven chakra model).

blossomingtree
16-11-2017, 10:02 PM
A friend that is realized like I have been talking about for pages now.


Thanks, I'm not asking for your marketing brochure or a diversion. :smile:

I am asking who is your Tibetan teacher, what lineage they are in and who authorized you to give transmissions?

If you don't have an authentic lineage, you could just say it - i.e. I'm self taught and a few internet buddies and I agree about each other's authenticity so we decided we can go about teaching others using key words

It's fine - it seems that the internet is ripe for such people (look at all the leanings of Iamit/Iamthat) - but at least please don't claim that you are representing or actually teaching Tibetan Buddhism.

As to the quote, it sounds like material ripe for a cult. It's such a pity that so many good traditions have come to all this.

BT

sentient
17-11-2017, 12:31 AM
Thank you for the list you shared jonesboy.

The point that was ‘looking at me’ from your list was this:
level 7 - Classically called the open crown, this is when you start to get cracks in the local mind version of sense of self. One starts to notice/touch the divine/light. Anyone who reaches this stage will often experience a divine being (or guru) to help them cross over into the light/divine. No fear of death at this stage.
That to me spells out the time, prior to awakening & initiation.

Open Crown – yes, check.

Divine Being or Guru - well sort of yes.
If at this stage it is “Kundalini” (whatever Kundalini is) that rises to meet up & merge with the descending Spirit ........
well, if this so called “Kundalini” can be equated with “Windhorse”, then I semi-understand what Kundalini is, except I know “Windhorse” a bit better from the Shamanic version as Tulpar or as Hiimori.

It is more like a Divine function rather than an entity, yet the image of it stood clear.
Tulpar ready and waiting on the Charnel Ground for a rider, indicating a safe crossing:
From a spiritual point of the charnel ground represents the death of ego, and the end of:
• attachment to this body and life
• craving for a body and life in the future
• fear of death
• and aversion to the decay of impermanence.

Are raising Kundalini and raising Windhorse similar?
Are they comparable?

sky
17-11-2017, 05:06 AM
Please show me a reference to internal fire anywhere that is not from Jeff. Internal fire is only a few years old :)

A transmission is used in Buddhism for instance to help one with the practice. While not needed it can help a lot!

Also, pranayama is much more than visualization. That is only part of it.



Inner/internal fire visualizations are used in all Martial Arts and TCM Jonesboy, Jeff didn't invent this practise :biggrin: His disclaimer and lineage add- on made me chuckle...

What you are doing in these practises in harnessing Universal Energy from the heavens and the earth and moving it around the Meridians.

Bodhidharma was teaching this thousands of years ago to the Shaolin Monks, another name for this practise is Qigong....:smile:

What's Jeffs ' Lineage ' , btw...

Iamit
17-11-2017, 05:42 AM
Hi Iamit,

I don't believe it is a contest either :smile:

Yes I understand your pov I just very much disagree.

You can't get beyond thoughts with another thought.

Thinking everything is oneness is not a realization nor will it move you farther along the path.

For me the progression has been along these lines.

If the manifestation if infinate all those levels (and anything else that might be imagined) must arise otherwise the manifestation would not be infinate.

From a non dual perspective Onenss is the only reality so there are no levels of Oneness, just Oneness without distinction or discrimination. so all that arises is an appearance of difference where is no difference whatsoever. And yet all those levels are a manifestion of that Oneness as well as all religions, their gods, prophets and saviours....and of course the concept of non duality itself:)

Whatever level one is on will not connect you with Oneness more than any other because you are already Onenesss exactly as you already are. Even if you dont feel that you are still not disconnected because it is already Oneness not feeling it!!!

:)

Shivani Devi
17-11-2017, 06:36 AM
Here he is sharing his experience.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42858-my-experience/

Here is a Q&A about our practices from members of the forum.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41978-q-a-for-jeff/



"Sorry, but you don't have permission to view content". :icon_frown:

I also think Sky may be confusing "Internal Fire Pranayama" with "Breath of Fire Pranayama"....maybe....maybe.

I also wait on the charnel grounds for purification by fire and holy absolution through the sacred ashes of mortality...what is my lineage? It is Aghori Tantra (Kaula Vāmācāra Sampradaya).

It is also usually the case that when I speak, others will remain in stunned silence, only murmuring among themselves. I cannot seem to get a decent conversation out of anybody, because nobody dares question me. =/

I partake in all the ancient Hindu esoteric rituals and follow the 'left-hand path' of Sanatana Dharma.

I rise through all that which makes me fall. I shun segregation according to caste and gender and the notions of 'purity' and 'impurity' were created by man, because the Divine sees and creates both...we can hide nothing.

It is better to be open, honest and 'unholy', than to hide one's faults and shortcomings behind a belief or a creed. I also worship Kala Bhairava (both in form and as the formless aspect of Brahman). I help dispel evil and ignorance through the one who destroys all...I am Aghori.

http://vividlife.me/ultimate/19761/understanding-tantra-lineages/

sky
17-11-2017, 07:45 AM
Quote SD...'I also think Sky may be confusing "Internal Fire Pranayama" with "Breath of Fire Pranayama"....maybe....maybe.'


No SD your the expert on Hinduism, I wouldn't even try :smile:

What I am trying to explain to JB is that what he posted from his friend Jeff ( Internal/inner fire ) practise has been around for thousands of years and not invented by him. It comes under many labels but the ingredients are the same.

By posting a disclaimer and adding that is should be done for the first time from someone with ' Lineage ' is misleading and could prevent some from trying this practise and seeing if it works for them...

I always think ' the proof is in the pudding '

Iamit
17-11-2017, 11:45 AM
Can't you see just by reality of what is going on in your life and all around you that your theory is wrong?

Of course it matters if it is realized or not. If you haven't realized it, all it is, is a day dream.

You are trying to talk like someone on top of the mountain, who has realized it all and says the path is just being, non doing. That is true but the depth to get to that point, that realization is beyond the concept of you as a person.

Everything has the same essence but are you aware of that essence? Can you look within and be the person next to you? The plant, or become one with Jesus and share that grace with another?

That is the realization of, it is not an everything is perfect we are all oneness so just stop doing anything because you are already oneness.

It is the realization that all traditions help one achieve.

Your path is do nothing and because you do nothing, nothing will ever change.

Which is really sad because amazing, life changing things do happen along the path to that realization and you are missing all of it.

Its worse than that Jonesboy. If all that stuff offends you try this:-

The abuser is the abused, each the other and the One Love in action dreaming difference where there is none.

Don't make the mistake of blaming the messenger for the message. It ends discussion. All is One is not my idea. It is an ancient philosophy long before things were written down. You may disagree with it in principal because it conflicts with your something to be done, but surely you can see that it is all inclusive, nothing excluded?

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 01:48 PM
Thanks, I'm not asking for your marketing brochure or a diversion. :smile:

I am asking who is your Tibetan teacher, what lineage they are in and who authorized you to give transmissions?

If you don't have an authentic lineage, you could just say it - i.e. I'm self taught and a few internet buddies and I agree about each other's authenticity so we decided we can go about teaching others using key words

It's fine - it seems that the internet is ripe for such people (look at all the leanings of Iamit/Iamthat) - but at least please don't claim that you are representing or actually teaching Tibetan Buddhism.

As to the quote, it sounds like material ripe for a cult. It's such a pity that so many good traditions have come to all this.

BT

Hi BT,

I never claimed to be a Buddhist. As a matter of fact I have said I am not many times in many threads. I am a big fan of Dzogchen and Kashmir Shaivism. I tend to use those defined terms form the traditions so that we can have a conversation with defined meaning.

The thread is about a guru, a realized guru not a teacher who just tells you stuff.

I have been saying over and over again that the realization of oneness is one that can be shared. You can demonstrate such a thing beyond just talking.

It is that sharing, that presence that can help move someone along.

Merging - This is probably one of the most misunderstood terms of people that use it. Ultimately, a merge is a full overlap of consciousness with another being/person. Kind of like two concentric circles fully overlapping. But, being able to do a full overlap is very rare as the merger's own issues and fear limit the level of merge. Hence, what most people call a merge often becomes more of a hybrid of a merge and a hug.

A merge would be a more advanced form of Yidam practice in Buddhism.

Everything i posted was to show what can be done to help another person, some methods beyond local mind techniques to share that presence, that space to help another.

As always I am more than willing to demonstrate everything that has been posted so that one can see if it is a cult and just a bunch of ** or if it is something more.

As someone calling out anthers character and practice I would like to invite you for a demonstration. One that you could just observe or participate in to judge for yourself.

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 01:51 PM
Thank you for the list you shared jonesboy.

The point that was ‘looking at me’ from your list was this:

That to me spells out the time, prior to awakening & initiation.

Open Crown – yes, check.

Divine Being or Guru - well sort of yes.
If at this stage it is “Kundalini” (whatever Kundalini is) that rises to meet up & merge with the descending Spirit ........
well, if this so called “Kundalini” can be equated with “Windhorse”, then I semi-understand what Kundalini is, except I know “Windhorse” a bit better from the Shamanic version as Tulpar or as Hiimori.

It is more like a Divine function rather than an entity, yet the image of it stood clear.
Tulpar ready and waiting on the Charnel Ground for a rider, indicating a safe crossing:

Are raising Kundalini and raising Windhorse similar?
Are they comparable?

Kundalini is a charged word for many.

In truth kundalini is the initial awakening to energy. For many they get trapped in the idea that it is just a bunch of energy at the base waiting to awaken one to enlightenment.

Kundalini in the beginning is again the initial awakening to energy but in truth it is Universal Consciousness.

It just depends on what depth one is looking at it from :)

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 01:59 PM
Quote SD...'I also think Sky may be confusing "Internal Fire Pranayama" with "Breath of Fire Pranayama"....maybe....maybe.'


No SD your the expert on Hinduism, I wouldn't even try :smile:

What I am trying to explain to JB is that what he posted from his friend Jeff ( Internal/inner fire ) practise has been around for thousands of years and not invented by him. It comes under many labels but the ingredients are the same.



I always think ' the proof is in the pudding '

Actually it hasn't been practiced for thousands of years or else you would provide a link to it as your proof. :smile:

Instead as always your first instinct is to disparage a thing.

Internal fire has been posted at the Tao Bums for a long time. That is a very serious site with very serous teachers and practitioners from many traditions.

None of them has ever said it is a rip off. They have said it is similar to some practices but never that it is a rip off.

By posting a disclaimer and adding that is should be done for the first time from someone with ' Lineage ' is misleading and could prevent some from trying this practise and seeing if it works for them...

If someone had bothered to read slowly.

Disclaimer - the below practice is usually done for the first time with the energetic support of a lineage teacher.

I thank you for your concern that the wording may discourage someone from trying out this very good energy practice.

If anyone has any questions about it please let me know and please don't be discouraged by the word Usually.

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 02:02 PM
Its worse than that Jonesboy. If all that stuff offends you try this:-

The abuser is the abused, each the other and the One Love in action dreaming difference where there is none.

Don't make the mistake of blaming the messenger for the message. It ends discussion. All is One is not my idea. It is an ancient philosophy long before things were written down. You may disagree with it in principal because it conflicts with your something to be done, but surely you can see that it is all inclusive, nothing excluded?

Hi Iamit,

I don't disagree with non duality at all.

I disagree with your view on all is oneness so sit on your butt and just know all is oneness so everything is good.. go back to watching tv now because all is perfect oneness.

It doesn't work that way.

Would you like for me to provide you some ancient texts from both Buddhism and Kashmir Shaivism that help you with non duality and the progression one makes?

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 02:20 PM
I would also like to share the differences in what i have been posting.

I posted internal fire because you have a lot of people on this forum that don't really have a practice.

If you would like a basic practice meditation and an energy technique that is well grounded can take one a long ways. Hence why Jeff has posted Neutral Witness and Internal Fire.

Everyone is mostly familiar with needing to do some sort of spiritual practice that improves ones life.

Beyond doing meditation and pranayama techniques is the sharing of Oneness or presence with another being. I posted some methods that we use for that sharing when working with others.

As an example.

Rigpa is the state of mind where thoughts are energy and if one can reside in that energy, in that clarity issues and fears are naturally let go of. (Buddhist term)

A Dive as i posted is a method that was borrowed and modified from Kashmir Shaivism.

You have a group of people and the leader with intent takes everyone's mind deeper than what they can on there own. It is like a deep waking meditation. Along with that silence one feels energy/light flowing though them or on them depending on the person and their depth.

A dive is like introducing someone to Rigpa. One is taken deeper into silence, the energy flows through ones entire being, hitting and removing obstructions. The silence plus the energy allows for someone to naturally progress in a much faster and gentler means that just going it alone.

We have a lot of people that come around and really enjoy our dives, our group energy practice.


Now I am sure you will have some say that is all a bunch of junk, all just people being deluded but the fact is I can show you threads at the TaoBums where members talk about our practices from such a demonstration.

As always I am more than willing to demonstrate any such sharing either in PM or one can come to our chat where we hang out and work with others.

It is either fake and one will quickly figure that out or it's not. If it's not and such things are possible.. What do you have to lose?

django
17-11-2017, 02:25 PM
Please show me a reference to internal fire anywhere that is not from Jeff. Internal fire is only a few years old :)

A transmission is used in Buddhism for instance to help one with the practice. While not needed it can help a lot!

Also, pranayama is much more than visualization. That is only part of it.

These seem similar, there must be many more but this was a very quick search:

Kriya Yoga Dawn Exercises

Here is a variation on meditations taught by Shri Yukteswar and Drunvalo Melchizedek [my condensed version]

...Notice the breath going in and out of your nostrils.
Place your tongue at the top of your palate, behind your teeth. Breathe in through the nostrils...
While you inhale, imagine the Sun is right above your head.
See the golden liquid light of the Sun pour down over your head and into your prana tube.
The prana tube is approximately two inches in diameter and extends from a point about a foot above your head through the center of your body, exiting at the perineum and extending down into the earth about a foot.
The liquid light of the sun pours down that tube into your heart.
As you exhale, see the silvery liquid light of the Earth rise up from far beneath your feet into your prana tube, all the way into your heart.
As you continue to breathe, see the golden and silvery liquid light continue to pour into your prana tube from above and below.
Do this breath ten times.

https://www.satyacenter.com/back-to-the-garden/section1-self-love/chapter5-sunrise-meditation
Grounding Meditation

There are many different types of meditations that use visualisation to help ground us back into the earth. This is a good way to go about achieving a quick grounding, especially if exercise or other forms of grounding are out of the picture. One of my favourite meditations involves visualising the pillar of white light coming down from the sun and through the center of the body, down through all the cha
kras individually. Then it leaves the body from the root chakra and travels down deep into the earth, reaching the heart of mother earth. I imagine it winding around the earth's core three times before it rises back up through the crust and re-enters the body. Then it travels through all the chakras again before leaving via the crown chakra and travels upwards through the sun. This meditation works wonders.

http://askingangels.com/psychic/spiritual-grounding.php

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 02:34 PM
Similar but the details are different.

It is those differences in an energy practice that makes all the difference.

I also have a very good friend who is a kriya yoga lineage teacher that you can talk to who could explain the differences if you would like.

Also, because you are finding things close to it if you don’t have an energy practice before meditation give it a shot for a week and see what you notice :)

sky
17-11-2017, 02:46 PM
Actually it hasn't been practiced for thousands of years or else you would provide a link to it as your proof. :smile:

Instead as always your first instinct is to disparage a thing.

Internal fire has been posted at the Tao Bums for a long time. That is a very serious site with very serous teachers and practitioners from many traditions.
I
None of them has ever said it is a rip off. They have said it is similar to some practices but never that it is a rip off.



If someone had bothered to read slowly.

Disclaimer - the below practice is usually done for the first time with the energetic support of a lineage teacher.

I thank you for your concern that the wording may discourage someone from trying out this very good energy practice.

If anyone has any questions about it please let me know and please don't be discouraged by the word Usually.


I have pointed out to you, it is Qigong...... under a different name, there are thousands of links you can find yourself, to many for me to post :smile:

All energy practises are based on the same principle, universal energy. You visualize collecting the energy from heaven and earth and use it internally. You will have seen pictures of Bodhidharma doing this practise, he is usually standing but it can be done sitting down. The first stance in Qigong is called ' Wu Chi '.. primordial energy, it is the most important stance in any form, it can be used on it's own or part of a form.
It has been around for thousands of years but labeled differently as Jeff has done. Harness primordial energy, move it around your meridians etc etc, different names for the same practise.

sky
17-11-2017, 02:50 PM
These seem similar, there must be many more but this was a very quick search:

Exactly, different names from different traditions but they are all about visualising harnessing universal energy, these practises have been used for thousands of years...

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 03:02 PM
Exactly, different names from different traditions but they are all about visualising harnessing universal energy, these practises have been used for thousands of years...

Yes, energy practices are a good thing.

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 03:19 PM
I have pointed out to you, it is Qigong...... under a different name, there are thousands of links you can find yourself, to many for me to post :smile:

All energy practises are based on the same principle, universal energy. You visualize collecting the energy from heaven and earth and use it internally. You will have seen pictures of Bodhidharma doing this practise, he is usually standing but it can be done sitting down. The first stance in Qigong is called ' Wu Chi '.. primordial energy, it is the most important stance in any form, it can be used on it's own or part of a form.
It has been around for thousands of years but labeled differently as Jeff has done. Harness primordial energy, move it around your meridians etc etc, different names for the same practise.

Hi sky,

I am really not sure if you just like to following me from thread to thread disagreeing with everything i say or if you are just a really bad Qi Qong teacher.

It is not a Qi Gong technique, not every energy practice is a Qi Qong technique.

Also every change from sitting to standing to the way you sit has an impact on the practice and the energy.

For those not familiar with energy practices and how a posture or a movement can change the practice let me explain.

When i first started out I did AYP.

They have an pranayama that has you with your breath move the energy from the root to the 3rd eye and back down again, over and over. Very similar to Kriya Yoga.

Once one has become stable at that practice they then add Mulabandha.

With mulabandha, we sit in pranayama like we always do. As we do, we lightly flex our anal sphincter muscle and hold it. That is, lightly. It is barely beyond the intention into the physical sensation. What we want to do is develop the habit of holding this light flex of the anal sphincter throughout our pranayama session. At the same time, while we do this, we lightly flex and pull up above the flexed anal sphincter, through the pelvis, and into our lower belly. There will be little physical movement, just a little beyond the intention, just enough to create a physical habit with. Later on, just the slightest intention will be enough to send sexual energy flying upward. What we are doing now is beginning the development of a new sensitivity in the pelvic region. As discussed in earlier lessons, pranayama draws the prana up from the pelvis through a biological process having to do with the gentle restraint of oxygen in the body. We are now helping that rising prana with some direct stimulation, amplifying its upward flow.

Mulabandha is a physical maneuver that quickly becomes a habit. In the beginning, our attention will be drawn to the sexual sensations it produces. It will be distracting for a while. That is normal. The aroused sexual energy may want to go down as much as up at first. That is normal too. We just continue with our pranayama practice as always, easily favoring our spinal breathing. This brings the energy up and down in our spinal nerve. In time, we will feel pleasurable sensations higher up, and the event of sexual energy going down during pranayama will become a rarity, and, eventually, never.

As that new movement and the changes from this addition become stable you then add another movement to your pranayama practice, Sambhavi.

which is applying direct stimulation near the lower end of the spinal nerve (sushumna) to enliven sexual energy upward. Now we are going to the top end of the spinal nerve and begin to make a connection there.

The second component of sambhavi is a physical raising of the eyes toward the point where the furrowing is happening at the point between the eyebrows. The sensation of furrowing at the point between the eyebrows is where the eyes will go. This will involve some raising and some centering of the eyes. We keep the eyes comfortably closed as we do it. We don't force the eyes. In the beginning, they may not go as far up as we would like. That is okay. Do not force them. Just let them gravitate naturally toward the sensation of furrowing at the point between the eyebrows. Again, it is a subtle physical habit we want to cultivate. Once the habit in place, the attention is free for spinal breathing. All of pranayama is physical habit, except for the attention going very simply up and down the spinal nerve with the breath. As we become adept at it, everything will be happening automatically, with our attention completely free to be easily going up and down inside the spinal nerve, which will be transforming before our inner sight.

As we do these two things simultaneously, the slight furrowing of the center of the brow and the raising and centering of the eyes to that point between the eyebrows, we continue all the other elements of pranayama just as before. It should be pointed out that as the attention goes up and down in the spinal nerve with the breath, the eyes remain aimed up toward the point between the eyebrows. We are not looking through our eyes with our attention. Our attention is going up and down in the spinal nerve. We do not try and look at the point between the eyebrows with the attention through the physical eyes. The eyes are physically going there, but our attention is going up and down in the spinal nerve. In fact, our physical eyes aren't doing anything other than muscular. When they are going up to the point between the eyebrows, the eyes are physically stimulating the spinal nerve all the way back through the brain and all the way down through the spine to the perineum. We are using our eyes in a physical way to awaken the spinal nerve. Meanwhile, our vision (attention) is in and through the spinal nerve, easily going up and down inside. It is a new kind of seeing we are beginning, an inner seeing.

Next and what was for a very long time much to powerful for me was changing how one sits. Moving from just sitting cross legged to sitting in siddhasana. The energy from that little change would overload me.. aka was to powerful and cause emotional upset from the energy hitting obstructions. It took me a long time to get past that.

Here is a thread from when i had just started spiritual practices doing these techniques and how they impacted me.

https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12686&SearchTerms=newbie

Every movement, every change has an impact on the practice and its effectiveness as well as what it is working within us.

So please stop with the generalities and the broad proclamations just because the name is Primordial doesn't make it a Qi Qong technique and as you can see, sitting or standing and how one sits and stands can make a difference.

As you should know as a Qi Qong teacher.

As we all can see energy practices can get deep and detailed in the movements.

I posted Internal Fire because i know it is an effective, safe energy technique that can improves one spiritual practice. It has been tested many times by many people with positive results.

Just really trying to help people is all i was attempting to do.

sky
17-11-2017, 03:31 PM
Hi sky,

I am really not sure if you just like to following me from thread to thread disagreeing with everything i say or if you are just a really bad Qi Qong teacher.

It is not a Qi Gong technique, not every energy practice is a Qi Qong technique.

Also every change from sitting to standing to the way you sit has an impact on the practice and the energy.

For those not familiar with energy practices and how a posture or a movement can change the practice let me explain.

When i first started out I did AYP.

They have an pranayama that has you with your breath move the energy from the root to the 3rd eye and back down again, over and over. Very similar to Kriya Yoga.

Once one has become stable at that practice they then add Mulabandha.



As that new movement and the changes from this addition become stable you then add another movement to your pranayama practice, Sambhavi.



Next and what was for a very long time much to powerful for me was changing how one sits. Moving from just sitting cross legged to sitting in siddhasana. The energy from that little change would overload me.. aka was to powerful and cause emotional upset from the energy hitting obstructions. It took me a long time to get past that.

Here is a thread from when i had just started spiritual practices doing these techniques and how they impacted me.

https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12686&SearchTerms=newbie

Every movement, every change has an impact on the practice and its effectiveness as well as what it is working within us.

So please stop with the generalities and the broad proclamations just because the name is Primordial doesn't make it a Qi Qong technique and as you can see, sitting or standing and how one sits and stands can make a difference.

As you should know as a Qi Qong teacher.


When you know more about Qigong come back and we will discuss it more :biggrin:

sentient
17-11-2017, 09:47 PM
Kundalini is a charged word for many.

In truth kundalini is the initial awakening to energy. For many they get trapped in the idea that it is just a bunch of energy at the base waiting to awaken one to enlightenment.

Kundalini in the beginning is again the initial awakening to energy but in truth it is Universal Consciousness.

It just depends on what depth one is looking at it from :)

Ok.
Found “Kashmir Shaivism” on the net and a youtube video which also talks about energy and I thought it was rather good:
“Ascend of Shakti vs descend of Grace”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPYZ64RgjRo

From 12:44 to 15:36 he talks about his experience of energy descending down the crown chakra (and him seeing the face of his guru Maharishi).

[Or one could talk about it in terms of (a felt sense) thundercloud hovering about (invitation/calling).
When thunder is heard it shifts one to awakening.
Then when the thundercloud comes right above you and engulfs you - the lightning strikes (initiation)].


Kashmir Shaivism doesn’t seem to talk about raising the Windhorse though as a way of preparing-the-body-mind/summoning-the-spirit.

jonesboy
17-11-2017, 10:38 PM
Here is a link to a masterpiece called the Triadic Heart of Siva.

http://www.laurelhovde.com/Design/The-Triadic-Heart-of-Siva.pdf

Also, here are many links about ks here.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=117448

Hope these links help.

django
17-11-2017, 11:34 PM
Similar but the details are different.

It is those differences in an energy practice that makes all the difference.

I also have a very good friend who is a kriya yoga lineage teacher that you can talk to who could explain the differences if you would like.

Also, because you are finding things close to it if you don’t have an energy practice before meditation give it a shot for a week and see what you notice :)

Hi Jonesboy, I think sky is probably quite correct about this technique being part of qigong, for instance see under the sub heading Bringing in Heaven and Earth Energy halfway down the page in this Qi Gong link http://www.1paradigm.org/qigong.html

This technique draws on the existence of Heaven (Sky) energy and Earth energy. The earth contributes the material substance from which out bodies are composed and the energy which holds it together. The heavens, void, or infinite contributes the energy that is the substance of our Soul and Spirit. These two energies form energy reservoirs which can be accessed and blended into our own energy fields.

(1) Stand with your feet shoulder width apart, your pelvis tipped forward, your back straight and your shoulders, hips and ankles aligned in a vertical straight line. Place your tongue against the roof of your mouth and your hands together in the prayer position.

(3) To bring in earth energy, visualize energy flowing up from the earth along the outer part of your legs and entering into your microcosmic circuit. (etc etc)

(7) To bring in cosmic energy, visualize energy flowing down from the infinite universe into your microcosmic circuit through the top of your head. (etc etc)

FallingLeaves
18-11-2017, 12:03 AM
on thinking yourself 'all that' and on being 'insecure': yeah that is one of the things we have to work through, not thinking ourselves all that special for whatever comes up. Gurus have to do that too and it takes them every bit as much effort. But they aren't in an environment where people heckle them as part of the process, so, we are learning something they aren't. As an example of one of many things that are apparently outside of your understanding?

But on your favorite topic of following gurus, there are a lot of limitations if you are a guru. And then after you devote your life to the practices you find you have put yourself in a box. Same as everyone else your life practices have put you in a box. It is just that with your status of 'guru' your box looks different than the 'normal' boxes that the majority of people have.

Maybe in some ways it is more spacious and comfortable. But it is a box nonetheless. And because of it, you'll go on to die just like the rest of us.

What is the point?

Personally that path isn't for me even if everyone is going to sit here and deride me for not playing follow the leader the way everyone tells me is best.

Ok so I'm wasting my life away because I've been kicked in the shins so many times I couldn't play by stupid meaningless rules that only lead to ruin even though I WANT to, and everyone knows you just cannot live like that. Everyone knows that you CANNOT deny the status quo at any price and I'm a fool for not just being able to just buy into it sight unseen the way everyone else seems to. Ok so I'm a fool and I'm willful and I'm just plain wasting my life away. Your point is?????

Iamit
18-11-2017, 01:43 AM
on thinking yourself 'all that' and on being 'insecure': yeah that is one of the things we have to work through, not thinking ourselves all that special for whatever comes up. Gurus have to do that too and it takes them every bit as much effort. But they aren't in an environment where people heckle them as part of the process, so, we are learning something they aren't. As an example of one of many things that are apparently outside of your understanding?

But on your favorite topic of following gurus, there are a lot of limitations if you are a guru. And then after you devote your life to the practices you find you have put yourself in a box. Same as everyone else your life practices have put you in a box. It is just that with your status of 'guru' your box looks different than the 'normal' boxes that the majority of people have.

Maybe in some ways it is more spacious and comfortable. But it is a box nonetheless. And because of it, you'll go on to die just like the rest of us.

What is the point?

Personally that path isn't for me even if everyone is going to sit here and deride me for not playing follow the leader the way everyone tells me is best.

Ok so I'm wasting my life away because I've been kicked in the shins so many times I couldn't play by stupid meaningless rules that only lead to ruin even though I WANT to, and everyone knows you just cannot live like that. Everyone knows that you CANNOT deny the status quo at any price and I'm a fool for not just being able to just buy into it sight unseen the way everyone else seems to. Ok so I'm a fool and I'm willful and I'm just plain wasting my life away. Your point is?????

Which path are you referring to when you say

"Personally that path isn't for me even if everyone is going to sit here and deride me for not playing follow the leader the way everyone tells me is best"

?

sentient
18-11-2017, 02:28 AM
Here is a link to a masterpiece called the Triadic Heart of Siva.

http://www.laurelhovde.com/Design/The-Triadic-Heart-of-Siva.pdf

Also, here are many links about ks here.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=117448

Hope these links help.

Thank you for all the links, I will look into it a bit more.

sky
18-11-2017, 07:17 AM
Hi Jonesboy, I think sky is probably quite correct about this technique being part of qigong, for instance see under the sub heading Bringing in Heaven and Earth Energy halfway down the page in this Qi Gong link http://www.1paradigm.org/qigong.html



That's a very informative article django, I did point out this ' Wu Chi ' position and the importance of it to JB but there was no response :smile:

jonesboy
18-11-2017, 02:06 PM
Hi Jonesboy, I think sky is probably quite correct about this technique being part of qigong, for instance see under the sub heading Bringing in Heaven and Earth Energy halfway down the page in this Qi Gong link http://www.1paradigm.org/qigong.html

Is sky gazing Qi Qong because it mentions the sun?

The details of the technique are different.

Also you would never here us talking about earth energy and sun energy as being separate.

Internal Fire is similar to many techniques for sure. It is a basic technique.

Still very, very different than what you posted.

You do realize how silly it to assume it is Qi Qong first because of its name primordial and then as more proof because it mentions the sun and earth.

Really?

Look into the details of the movement of the energy.

The accusation was it was a ripoff, stolen, taken credit for by Jeff but something done for thousands of years.

I have seen things close but nothing showing this exact method.

Until someone can show me this exact technique step by step... well good luck with that.

I am sure that won’t stop some people from making stuff up anyways.

sky
18-11-2017, 02:32 PM
Is sky gazing Qi Qong because it mentions the sun?

The details of the technique are different.

Also you would never here us talking about earth energy and sun energy as being separate.

Internal Fire is similar to many techniques for sure. It is a basic technique.

Still very, very different than what you posted.

You do realize how silly it to assume it is Qi Qong first because of its name primordial and then as more proof because it mentions the sun and earth.

Really?

Look into the details of the movement of the energy.

The accusation was it was a ripoff, stolen, taken credit for by Jeff but something done for thousands of years.

I have seen things close but nothing showing this exact method.

Until someone can show me this exact technique step by step... well good luck with that.

I am sure that won’t stop some people from making stuff up anyways.

No it doesn't stop people from making things up as some do :wink:

Earth energy and Sun are exactly the same, if you understood Qigong you would be able to see why it seems to read as being separate, yin/yang will explain it for you if you are interested in learning....

As for star gazing... yes it is used in some forms of Qigong, you visualize the energy from the stars :smile: as Jeff does with the sun and the earth.
Hope this helps.

jonesboy
18-11-2017, 10:38 PM
No it doesn't stop people from making things up as some do :wink:

Earth energy and Sun are exactly the same, if you understood Qigong you would be able to see why it seems to read as being separate, yin/yang will explain it for you if you are interested in learning....

As for star gazing... yes it is used in some forms of Qigong, you visualize the energy from the stars :smile: as Jeff does with the sun and the earth.
Hope this helps.

Making stuff up like it is an old method and yet not showing that it is? Just putting things down again with broad statements?

Making up stuff like that?

Please feel free to share about energy and how it is experienced.

You have argued with me so often about energy it would be nice to actually hear you talk about it instead of just disparaging what others have to say.

Any bets on what she will do anyone? :)

django
18-11-2017, 11:59 PM
Is sky gazing Qi Qong because it mentions the sun?

The details of the technique are different.

Also you would never here us talking about earth energy and sun energy as being separate.

Internal Fire is similar to many techniques for sure. It is a basic technique.

Still very, very different than what you posted.

You do realize how silly it to assume it is Qi Qong first because of its name primordial and then as more proof because it mentions the sun and earth.

Really?

Look into the details of the movement of the energy.

The accusation was it was a ripoff, stolen, taken credit for by Jeff but something done for thousands of years.

I have seen things close but nothing showing this exact method.

Until someone can show me this exact technique step by step... well good luck with that.

I am sure that won’t stop some people from making stuff up anyways.

It seems to me that Jeff's technique is his version of a basic technique, so his exact version may be unique, but it can still be based on ideas that are much older. I don't honestly see why this is a problem?

sentient
19-11-2017, 03:09 AM
I came to this forum to bring my attention to remembering: “What the heck happened back then, at the time of the awakening?”.

I feel like I am a jigsaw-puzzle looking for the missing pieces of that puzzle picture to sticky-tape myself back together again.
So I guess, I am just mainly talking to myself here, following my own thread of inquiry and creating sketches of my mental aberrations, thus making myself rather vulnerable here.

Now I am stuck on the ascending vs. descending energy question, because all I experienced then was the descending, engulfing Force-field.
The feeling of Grace and Joy only descended after I had settled down from a state of panic (of my “death”) :smile:

A sketch from previous post, with additions:
[Or one could talk about it in terms of (a felt sense) thundercloud hovering about (invitation/calling).
When thunder (other-dimensional sound) is heard it shifts one to awakening.
Then when the thundercloud comes right above you and engulfs you - the lightning strikes (merge/initiation, which is like a blackout or “death”)].
When you are back in the body, for me it was first panic (like I mentioned), then the feeling of Grace and Joy and a sense of having been re-arranged and reborn, but now without gender.
(Well, there is more to it to add to the “list”).

So perhaps in a Shamanic/Christian integrated awakening (because both elements were there, though I didn’t follow any tradition), the ascending energy and the descending energy just met and merged simultaneously, because even though the Oneness was realized, it was realized in a very personal, individualistically intimate way according to one’s own “soul’s patterning” maybe one could say.
But I didn’t even know about Shamanic-soul-patterning then, because that tradition had been broken down, only now I know that it perhaps is the “past lives soul patterning” as well, a heritage which is like cellular memory, ready to be triggered awake (into further remembering) by circumstances.

So this ascending and descending Energy situation really seems to wake up your own soul’s energetic connection to Oneness, it is not a soul implant from another culture (or soul patterns bought from the supermarket).

Now I am also stuck on what this guy Igor has to say, because in the points that I do relate to what he is saying, I agree with him.

Found another video by him on the subject, which I listened to last night, and I think he does make some important points to consider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVD9ywXhxQQ

sky
19-11-2017, 04:41 AM
Making stuff up like it is an old method and yet not showing that it is? Just putting things down again with broad statements?

Making up stuff like that?

Please feel free to share about energy and how it is experienced.

You have argued with me so often about energy it would be nice to actually hear you talk about it instead of just disparaging what others have to say.

Any bets on what she will do anyone? :)

I understand you are 'Star struck' or mybe Jeff stuck :smile: and you cannot see that his visualisations are based on methods used thousands of years ago, of course they are worded differently because visualisation is unique to each person. Nobodys has dispareged the practise but they are not Jeff's invention neither do they need someone from ' lineage ' (which I presume means Jeffs entourage) to perform.

'This page has been charged with light/energy transmission to give such support ' now this statement from Jeff is very silly and sounds slightly cult like.....

Energy..... can be felt in many ways JB as you should know from Jeffs teachings.
Vibration, heat, magnetic repulsion, tingling, movement in the meridians, etc: it depends.
If you would like help with understanding Qigong then you can start another thread as we seem to be taking over this one so that's enough from me....

sentient
19-11-2017, 07:40 AM
visualisations are based on methods used thousands of years ago, of course they are worded differently because visualisation is unique to each person.
Yes, sort of – exactly.

If I was to make that visualization my own:
Picture the sun high above your head. Feel the radiant warmth of the sun for a few moments. Then feel a powerful sunbeam coming straight down from the sun and hitting directly on the top of your head.
Off the top of my head (pardon the pun), I wouldn’t visualise it as the Sun. Though the (central) Sun is a brilliant symbol (again pardon the pun). The Pole Star is also excellent.
I wouldn’t visualise it as Vajrasattva on a moon disc either.
Instead I would visualise it as the Full Moon shining (from the Causal plane (?)), where within that indigo blue sky it shines the purest and the most beautiful blissful light.
Feeling its cooling rays, well, it is a state mimicking Grace already, something that evokes devotion one can trust opening up to. Plus it already then stills the mind.

Full Moon, from where Vajrasattva nor an Archangel did appear as the “ferry-man”, but the Horse, when the time was ripe. But then again, being part “Mong” what else can one expect!?

Well that visualisation above isn’t “charged with light/energy transmission to give support”, but serves, I hope as an example of how to make visualisations your own, to think, what is most true and deeply meaningful and trustworthy to “you” as an individual.

jonesboy
19-11-2017, 01:38 PM
It seems to me that Jeff's technique is his version of a basic technique, so his exact version may be unique, but it can still be based on ideas that are much older. I don't honestly see why this is a problem?

It’s not to me. :)

jonesboy
19-11-2017, 02:21 PM
I understand you are 'Star struck' or mybe Jeff stuck :smile: and you cannot see that his visualisations are based on methods used thousands of years ago, of course they are worded differently because visualisation is unique to each person. Nobodys has dispareged the practise but they are not Jeff's invention neither do they need someone from ' lineage ' (which I presume means Jeffs entourage) to perform.

'This page has been charged with light/energy transmission to give such support ' now this statement from Jeff is very silly and sounds slightly cult like.....

I am not star struck by Jeff. :)

I am blessed.

Jeff is my teacher and guru.

Now if you were to ask Jeff he would deny that he is a teacher or a guru. :smile:

In all my time with Jeff he has never told me what to practice or what not to practice. He has never told me what to do in my private life or what not to do.

Now as a Qi Gong teacher you should know that the visualization aspect of the technique doesn't matter at all.

Depending on the practice of course but for Internal Fire it doesn't matter at all. For those that it does matter they are much more advanced techniques.

Some people can't visualize anything or only a part of it. It doesn't matter.

What matters is one's intent and the breath.

With the inhale moving the energy from the sun, down through your crown, down into your heart. Then exhaling down from the heart to the earth. Next inhaling and following that energy back up to your heart and exhaling up the spine, through the crown up to the sun.

Slowly, with the breath over and over again.

Just like in meditation when you find yourself gone from the practice just return back to moving the energy up and down with the breath, following it with your intent.

That is the key to the practice. Not the visualization, moving the energy and how one moves the energy.

If you change it to go around the earth 3 times, or circle your body before sending it up it is a different practice with different outcomes. It is more than the visualization, it is how you work with and how that energy works within you.

I know you don't believe in empowerment's or transmissions as we have discussed it many times, offered to demonstrate it many times.. Yet again instead of seeing if it is real.. you instead just put things down that you haven't experienced or don't believe in.

blossomingtree
19-11-2017, 10:47 PM
Hi BT,

I never claimed to be a Buddhist. As a matter of fact I have said I am not many times in many threads. I am a big fan of Dzogchen and Kashmir Shaivism. I tend to use those defined terms form the traditions so that we can have a conversation with defined meaning.

__

As someone calling out anthers character and practice I would like to invite you for a demonstration. One that you could just observe or participate in to judge for yourself.

Hi jonesboy

No thank you, I'm not interested at all. To be honest, it sounds a little cult like to me? But that's just me.

Respectfully, you may wish to stop using Buddhist terms and terminology then? I don't believe any Tibetan Buddhist teacher worth his/her grain of salt would do "transmissions" over the internet, let alone sanction such practices. Not if they are genuine teachers in Buddhism. It's a bit of an insult for you to keep trying to recruit people in this manner utilizing the same words at that tradition and implying affinity.

Be well,

BT

jonesboy
20-11-2017, 04:22 AM
Dzogchen Master Norbu does them all the time and he is highly respected.

:)

I am also not recruiting. I have just offered to demonstrate things is all.

Many people use terms for a common language and understanding.

Far from insulting to do so.

Also can you show me anything I have posted that would be outside of dharma?

blossomingtree
20-11-2017, 05:29 AM
Also can you show me anything I have posted that would be outside of dharma?

I have to be honest with you jonesboy that I hardly read your posts as I don't find them to have the practice i.e. experiential depth I personally like but I also don't mind either - this is after a Spiritual Forum, and not Buddhist forums and I think that you're a nice guy.

However since you keep putting yourself out there and offering transmissions (haha) I thought I would check in with you on lineage/authorization as that underpins the Buddhist traditions. So now you confirm that you have no Buddhist training or experience, it makes a lot of sense (aha!)

But you seem at the same time to still think highly of your own credentials and that it is comparable i.e. you like to utilize Buddhist teachings to increase your own profile. Looking back, I see that is how you position yourself http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=116882&page=9
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1610146#post1610146


Anyway :smile: since you now ask we can look at a few examples.

I should also preface :smile: this by saying it is a bit disingenuous for you to admit that you have had no Buddhist training/education but want to debate that you have never misrepresented Dharma. But again, since you ask, here's a few things, fwiw:

Buddhism is about the techniques much more than the sutras.

If you really want to learn both go learn it from the source... choose a temple and ask someone who has spent there entire lives learning it from within a tradition.

The Sutras are fundamental guides of practice in Buddhism - the Heart Sutra is representative of one of the highest practices and outcomes of the Bodhisattvas and all Buddhas; ditto Diamond Sutra. There are many Sutras in Buddhism - and when you say it is more about the "techniques", you are showing your lack of depth in that

Zen works with Deities and they are not Tibetan.

Zen practice does not "work with" Deities. And they are not Tibetan? This feels like talking to someone who has no background in Buddhism, but we can stay with the former statement. "Zen works with Deities" - no, Zen Buddhism does not "work with Deities". Zen Buddhism is primarily a practice of directly realizing Buddha nature, its major practices include chanting, zazen, koan practice, and Buddha nature. All beings are Buddha nature. Culturally, does it honor Buddha, honor this, honor Kuan Yin? Of course. Tibetan Buddhism does have practices including Medicine Buddha, Tara Practice etc so one could theoretically use the term "work with" in Tibetan.


Because we are each unique and separate we can help each other. We are not just one giant blob. Hence the Bodhisattva vow.

There is no hence here. The Bodhisattva vows stand on their own. They consist of a number of aspects:
Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them
Delusions are endless, I vow to end them
Dhamma gates are innumerable, I vow to wake to them
The Buddha Way is unsurpassed, I vow to embody it fully
As you can see, the Bodhisattva vows are widely encompassing and not just about helping others as we're not a blob, as you say, or infer uniqueness/separateness as causation.

You are energy.
You either realize it or you don't.
All the traditions from Buddhism, Hinduism and Daoism say the same thing.

If you happen to find a few Googled words "energy" in a tradition, it does not mean that forms the core principle of that religion. To say Buddhism says "you are energy - you either realize it or you don't" is quite an inaccuracy in context, imo. Buddhism teaches Buddha nature - realization of Buddhahood, nibbana, cessation of dukkha, true nature, Dharma. It is not a flight of fancy about energy. Of course life consists of motion and well, life - without form and motion there is no consciousness! In the same way you can say without life there is no energy. But the above is not quite accurate when you try to represent a religion this way. I am sure you can find a quote here or there, but this is different. It is like me finding a quote in Christianity using that word 'energy', this is not to say that Christianity teaches you are energy and you either realize it or you don't. I doubt that is the core of Daoism and Hinduism either but I'll refrain from a conclusion on that (with the same notation about Googled words)



As far as divine beings.. I have showed you threads where people have talked about it after working with me or my friends.

They are real and accessible to all. I have even offered to help you experience it.. You know all this.

Instead you decide it is a joke and dismiss it instead of investigating to see if the world is a little bit more amazing than what you think it is.

This sure sounds like recruitment to me.

Anyway :D this was an interesting little exercise... Please note it was really a very cursory review of some of your recent posts and took minimal time. I notice you are adept at googling words to back up whichever argument you are putting forward (we all love Google, I admit hehe, I also use it a lot so don't worry about it)

I kind of wish I hadn't read your posts in detail now :icon_frown: It's kind of depressing to think these are the things dominating the Buddhist forum. I urge anyone interested in Buddhism to seek out Buddhist forums.

Cheerio, jonesboy. For the record, I have no interest in playing word or google games with you so I'll be leaving it here. I know what you know and don't know, and that's enough for me, if others want to follow you that's fine, but again I would just ask you to respectfully stop misrepresenting yourself as an expert in Buddhism because you are misleading people with eyes wide open (FWIW - of course do what you want though - we all do! hehe :D ).

Have a good day.

BT

sky
20-11-2017, 05:40 AM
I am not star struck by Jeff. :)

I am blessed.

Jeff is my teacher and guru.

Now if you were to ask Jeff he would deny that he is a teacher or a guru. :smile:

In all my time with Jeff he has never told me what to practice or what not to practice. He has never told me what to do in my private life or what not to do.

Now as a Qi Gong teacher you should know that the visualization aspect of the technique doesn't matter at all.

Depending on the practice of course but for Internal Fire it doesn't matter at all. For those that it does matter they are much more advanced techniques.

Some people can't visualize anything or only a part of it. It doesn't matter.

What matters is one's intent and the breath.

With the inhale moving the energy from the sun, down through your crown, down into your heart. Then exhaling down from the heart to the earth. Next inhaling and following that energy back up to your heart and exhaling up the spine, through the crown up to the sun.

Slowly, with the breath over and over again.

Just like in meditation when you find yourself gone from the practice just return back to moving the energy up and down with the breath, following it with your intent.

That is the key to the practice. Not the visualization, moving the energy and how one moves the energy.

If you change it to go around the earth 3 times, or circle your body before sending it up it is a different practice with different outcomes. It is more than the visualization, it is how you work with and how that energy works within you.

I know you don't believe in empowerment's or transmissions as we have discussed it many times, offered to demonstrate it many times.. Yet again instead of seeing if it is real.. you instead just put things down that you haven't experienced or don't believe in.


I have declined your offer many times, I can't understand why you keep advertising your transmission/empowerments constantly. I am certain that people are intelligent enough to choose a reliable source if they want to participate in these practises, for example... a Buddhist Master which you are not.
I live very close to a Tibetan Temple and if I wanted to participate in these rituals then I can, free of charge. I have not done this but I am certain that Jeff and his entourage are not qualified nor savvy enough to perform these practises. Of course he/you can say what you want and advertise your rituals but it's not part of Buddhism what you are doing and should not be classed as part of Buddhism....

Gem
20-11-2017, 06:16 AM
I understand you are 'Star struck' or mybe Jeff stuck :smile: and you cannot see that his visualisations are based on methods used thousands of years ago, of course they are worded differently because visualisation is unique to each person. Nobodys has dispareged the practise but they are not Jeff's invention neither do they need someone from ' lineage ' (which I presume means Jeffs entourage) to perform.

'This page has been charged with light/energy transmission to give such support ' now this statement from Jeff is very silly and sounds slightly cult like.....

Energy..... can be felt in many ways JB as you should know from Jeffs teachings.
Vibration, heat, magnetic repulsion, tingling, movement in the meridians, etc: it depends.
If you would like help with understanding Qigong then you can start another thread as we seem to be taking over this one so that's enough from me....

I'd follow a thread on qi gong if you started one.

revolver
20-11-2017, 06:20 AM
Dzogchen Master Norbu does them all the time and he is highly respected.

:)

I am also not recruiting. I have just offered to demonstrate things is all.

Many people use terms for a common language and understanding.

Far from insulting to do so.

Also can you show me anything I have posted that would be outside of dharma?
I have read many postings here, and I must say you are a very level headed person, I myself have had an experience in Consciousness, and it has changed my life completely. What I have read from what you have shared here is the words from a Enlightened being, we are all so called Gurus within, you have found your inner Being and this is what i see shining from you, through your words, a place like this may not be for you ?.:smile:

jonesboy
20-11-2017, 01:05 PM
I have to be honest with you jonesboy that I hardly read your posts as I don't find them to have the practice i.e. experiential depth I personally like but I also don't mind either - this is after a Spiritual Forum, and not Buddhist forums and I think that you're a nice guy.

However since you keep putting yourself out there and offering transmissions (haha) I thought I would check in with you on lineage/authorization as that underpins the Buddhist traditions. So now you confirm that you have no Buddhist training or experience, it makes a lot of sense (aha!)

I go to a Buddhist temple close to my house often and have received empowerments from the Rinpoche.


Anyway :smile: Let's look at your posts showing how misinformed I am....





The Sutras are fundamental guides of practice in Buddhism - the Heart Sutra is representative of one of the highest practices and outcomes of the Bodhisattvas and all Buddhas; ditto Diamond Sutra. There are many Sutras in Buddhism - and when you say it is more about the "techniques", you are showing your lack of depth in that

I agree sutras are fundamental but you have to understand your audience now don't you?

Do you know you are talking to people that don't believe Tibetan Buddhism is Buddhist at all? How about the same people who believe that Buddhism is whatever you want it to be?

Even still, you can read about the Heart Sutra all day long and without the practices you would never achieve understanding of Emptiness.

Buddhism is about the practices, the realization, the sutra are there to help guide and show the way.

The famous saying "do not establish words and letters", attributed in this period to Bodhidharma,[44]


...was taken not as a denial of the recorded words of the Buddha or the doctrinal elaborations by learned monks, but as a warning to those who had become confused about the relationship between Buddhist teaching as a guide to the truth and mistook it for the truth itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen

Still not seeing how you disagree with my statement.



Zen practice does not "work with" Deities. And they are not Tibetan? This feels like talking to someone who has no background in Buddhism, but we can stay with the former statement. "Zen works with Deities" - no, Zen Buddhism does not "work with Deities". Zen Buddhism is primarily a practice of directly realizing Buddha nature, its major practices include chanting, zazen, koan practice, and Buddha nature. All beings are Buddha nature. Culturally, does it honor Buddha, honor this, honor Kuan Yin? Of course. Tibetan Buddhism does have practices including Medicine Buddha, Tara Practice etc so one could theoretically use the term "work with" in Tibetan.

Are you not familiar with Yidam deity practices in Tibetan Buddhism? Here maybe this will help.

The Vajra Master: from “Dakini Teachings” by Padmasambhava



Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Which is more important, the master or the yidam deity?


The master replied: Do not regard the master and the yidam as different, because it is the master who introduces the yidam to you. By always venerating the master at the crown of your head you will be blessed and your obstacles will be cleared away. If you regard the master and yidam as being different in quality or importance you are holding misconceptions.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?


The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: When practicing a yidam deity, how should we meditate and practice in order to attain accomplishment?


The master replied: Since means and knowledge are to practice the spontaneously present body, speech and mind through the method of yoga sadhana, they will be accomplished no matter how you carry out the sadhana aspects endowed with body, speech, and mind. They will be accomplished when the sadhana and the recitation are practiced in a sufficient amount.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should we approach the sugata yidam deity?


The master replied: Realize that you and the yidam deity are not two and that there is no yidam deity apart from yourself. You approach the yidam deity when you realize that your nature is the state of nonarising dharmakaya.

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Which yidam deity is better to practice, a peaceful or wrathful one?


The master replied: Since means and knowledge are practicing the spontaneously present body, speech, and mind through the method of yoga sadhana, all the countless sugatas, peaceful and wrathful, chief figures and retinues, manifest in accordance with those to be tamed in whatever way is necessary–as peaceful and wrathful, chief figures and retinues. But as they are all one taste in the state of dharmakaya, each person can practice whichever yidam he feels inclined toward.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: If we practice one yidam deity, will that be the same as practicing all sugatas?


The master replied: The body, speech, and mind of all deities are manifested by the three mayas in accordance with the perception of those to be tamed. In fact, no matter how they appear, if you practice one you will be practicing them all. If you accomplish one you will have accomplished them all.


Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Is there any fault in practicing one yidam deity and then practicing another?


The master replied: Although the sugatas manifest as various kinds of families and forms, out of skillful means to tame beings, they are in actuality inseparable, the state of equality. If you were able to practice all the buddhas with this realization of their inseparability, your merit would be most eminent. But if you were to do so while regarding the yidam deities as having different qualities which should be either accepted or rejected, you would be immeasurably obscured. It is inappropriate to regard the yidams as good or bad, and to accept or reject them. If you do not regard them like that, it will be excellent no matter how you practice.

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Through performing the approach to one tathagata, will we accomplish the mind of all sugatas?

The master replied: By practicing with a vast view and remaining in the nature, you will attain stability in a yidam deity. When you complete the recitation, you will accomplish the activities of all the victorious ones without exception by simply commencing them.



Lady Tsogyal asked the Master: If one’s view is high, is it permissible to dispense with the yidam deity?

The master replied: If you attain confidence in the correct view then that itself is the yidam deity. Do not regard the yidam deity as a form body. Once you realize the nature of dharmakaya you will have accomplished the yidam deity.


Also, Zen is not Tibetan :) Maybe you are confusing Tibetan with Mahayana?

is a school of Mahayana Buddhism that originated in China during the Tang dynasty as Chan Buddhism. Zen school was strongly influenced by Taoism and developed as a distinct school of Chinese Buddhism. From China, Chan Buddhism spread south to Vietnam, northeast to Korea and east to Japan, where it became known as Japanese Zen and known as Seon buddihism in Korea.


As far as Zen working with Divine Beings.. maybe looking into the details a little more will help you.


A practice in many Zen monasteries and centers is a daily liturgy service. Practitioners chant major sutras such as the Heart Sutra, chapter 25 of the Lotus Sutra (often called the "Avalokiteśvara Sutra"), Song of the Precious Mirror Samadhi, the Nīlakaṇṭha Dhāraṇī, and other minor mantras.

The butsudan is the altar in a monastery where offerings are made to the images of the Buddha or bodhisattvas. The same term is also used in Japanese homes for the altar where one prays to and communicates with deceased family members. As such, reciting liturgy in Zen can be seen as a means to connect with the Bodhisattvas of the past. Liturgy is often used during funerals, memorials, and other special events as means to invoke the aid of supernatural powers.

Chanting usually centers on major bodhisattvas like Avalokiteśvara (see Guanyin) and Manjushri. According to Mahayana Buddhism, bodhisattvas are beings who have taken vows to remain in saṃsāra to help all beings achieve liberation from it. Since the Zen practitioner's aim is to walk the bodhisattva path, chanting can be used as a means to connect with these beings and realize this ideal within oneself.





There is no hence here. The Bodhisattva vows stand on their own. They consist of a number of aspects:
Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them
Delusions are endless, I vow to end them
Dhamma gates are innumerable, I vow to wake to them
The Buddha Way is unsurpassed, I vow to embody it fully
As you can see, the Bodhisattva vows are widely encompassing and not just about helping others as we're not a blob, as you say, or infer uniqueness/separateness as causation.

If you had read my posts you would understand I was referring to the end state of advaita compared to that of Buddhism and Kashmir Shaivism.

I think you just read my post to quickly with the mindset of disagree without reading.


If you happen to find a few Googled words "energy" in a tradition, it does not mean that forms the core principle of that religion. To say Buddhism says "you are energy - you either realize it or you don't" is quite an inaccuracy in context, imo. Buddhism teaches Buddha nature - realization of Buddhahood, nibbana, cessation of dukkha, true nature, Dharma. It is not a flight of fancy about energy. Of course life consists of motion and well, life - without form and motion there is no consciousness! In the same way you can say without life there is no energy. But the above is not quite accurate when you try to represent a religion this way. I am sure you can find a quote here or there, but this is different. It is like me finding a quote in Christianity using that word 'energy', this is not to say that Christianity teaches you are energy and you either realize it or you don't. I doubt that is the core of Daoism and Hinduism either but I'll refrain from a conclusion on that (with the same notation about Googled words)

Are you familiar with what the Primordial State is, in Buddhism?

Here let me help you understand how energy plays a role in Buddhism.

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=105080&highlight=primordial

Kashmir Shaivism would agree as would most Traditions.

Maybe you should google some more. It might help with some of the misunderstanding you are having.



Anyway :D this was an interesting little exercise... Please note it was really a very cursory review of some of your recent posts and took minimal time. I notice you are adept at googling words to back up whichever argument you are putting forward (we all love Google, I admit hehe, I also use it a lot so don't worry about it)

I kind of wish I hadn't read your posts in detail now :icon_frown: It's kind of depressing to think these are the things dominating the Buddhist forum. I urge anyone interested in Buddhism to seek out Buddhist forums.

Cheerio, jonesboy. For the record, I have no interest in playing word or google games with you so I'll be leaving it here. I know what you know and don't know, and that's enough for me, if others want to follow you that's fine, but again I would just ask you to respectfully stop misrepresenting yourself as an expert in Buddhism because you are misleading people with eyes wide open (FWIW - of course do what you want though - we all do! hehe :D ).

Have a good day.

BT


I think we can agree that we both have a different depth of understanding not just what reality is made up of within Buddhism but what they practice as well.

It is always best to learn with an open mind than to disparage another with a closed one.

Give it a shot :biggrin:

jonesboy
20-11-2017, 01:13 PM
I have declined your offer many times, I can't understand why you keep advertising your transmission/empowerments constantly. I am certain that people are intelligent enough to choose a reliable source if they want to participate in these practises, for example... a Buddhist Master which you are not.
I live very close to a Tibetan Temple and if I wanted to participate in these rituals then I can, free of charge. I have not done this but I am certain that Jeff and his entourage are not qualified nor savvy enough to perform these practises. Of course he/you can say what you want and advertise your rituals but it's not part of Buddhism what you are doing and should not be classed as part of Buddhism....

Interesting, are you now saying that you believe in transmissions and that someone should go to a qualified teacher for one?

Because you have mentioned many times that you don't believe in empowerments, transmission, don't believe in a teacher and that Buddhism is whatever you want it to be.

Do you just disagree with people to disagree because it is very hard to tell what you actually believe Sky. Do you just say whatever the group is saying to try and be cool?

Very hard to tell.

jonesboy
20-11-2017, 01:24 PM
I have read many postings here, and I must say you are a very level headed person, I myself have had an experience in Consciousness, and it has changed my life completely. What I have read from what you have shared here is the words from a Enlightened being, we are all so called Gurus within, you have found your inner Being and this is what i see shining from you, through your words, a place like this may not be for you ?.:smile:

Hi revolver,

I am a big believer in the Guru within. At the same time I have seen where that guru within can lead one astray.

Wasn't there someone using that guru within that was telling them that for them to feel bliss again they would have to give up their family and friends to experience it again?

I would disagree with that 100%.

Nothing wrong with the guru within, but often he is influenced by our ego, by our obstructions and depth. It can lead us away from that which we seek.

I know that a teacher and a guru isn't for everyone nor am I saying it is. I started out in a system with no teachers and the mantra is The Guru is within you. :)

I have just said I have found one and it has made all the difference.

What is interesting is the closed hearts that deny a guru or a teacher. That is more how open ones heart truly is more than anything else. How can you receive if it is closed from whatever being or thing may come around to help you? More importantly if it is closed to receiving, how can you give with an open heart?

While I have the same people here arguing with me as always, people do show up, people do come around. Some stay, some come and go. In the end it is all about helping people. All you can do is throw out seeds and hope.

9. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."

sky
20-11-2017, 01:34 PM
Interesting, are you now saying that you believe in transmissions and that someone should go to a qualified teacher for one?

Because you have mentioned many times that you don't believe in empowerments, transmission, don't believe in a teacher and that Buddhism is whatever you want it to be.

Do you just disagree with people to disagree because it is very hard to tell what you actually believe Sky. Do you just say whatever the group is saying to try and be cool?

Very hard to tell.

Very hard :biggrin: keeps you guessing though lol.

jonesboy
20-11-2017, 01:36 PM
Very hard :biggrin: keeps you guessing though lol.

It speaks more to your character and not in a good way.

It would be nice to meet the real you one day.

revolver
21-11-2017, 12:18 AM
Hi revolver,

I am a big believer in the Guru within. At the same time I have seen where that guru within can lead one astray.

Wasn't there someone using that guru within that was telling them that for them to feel bliss again they would have to give up their family and friends to experience it again?

I would disagree with that 100%.

Nothing wrong with the guru within, but often he is influenced by our ego, by our obstructions and depth. It can lead us away from that which we seek.

I know that a teacher and a guru isn't for everyone nor am I saying it is. I started out in a system with no teachers and the mantra is The Guru is within you. :)

I have just said I have found one and it has made all the difference.

What is interesting is the closed hearts that deny a guru or a teacher. That is more how open ones heart truly is more than anything else. How can you receive if it is closed from whatever being or thing may come around to help you? More importantly if it is closed to receiving, how can you give with an open heart?

While I have the same people here arguing with me as always, people do show up, people do come around. Some stay, some come and go. In the end it is all about helping people. All you can do is throw out seeds and hope.

9. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."
I think we are seeing the word guru differently, the Guru within is that which comes from the Source or Consciousness, the so called believed guru within comes from the mind, the mind learns what a true Guru is and tries to copy it, but the true Guru within is genuine, this is how I see it, and after all we are only trying to describe this with mere words.

blossomingtree
21-11-2017, 05:50 AM
I go to a Buddhist temple close to my house often and have received empowerments from the Rinpoche.

Anyway :smile: Let's look at your posts showing how misinformed I am....

I agree sutras are fundamental but you have to understand your audience now don't you?

Do you know you are talking to people that don't believe Tibetan Buddhism is Buddhist at all? How about the same people who believe that Buddhism is whatever you want it to be?

Even still, you can read about the Heart Sutra all day long and without the practices you would never achieve understanding of Emptiness.

Buddhism is about the practices, the realization, the sutra are there to help guide and show the way.

Still not seeing how you disagree with my statement.

Are you not familiar with Yidam deity practices in Tibetan Buddhism? Here maybe this will help.

Also, Zen is not Tibetan :) Maybe you are confusing Tibetan with Mahayana?

As far as Zen working with Divine Beings.. maybe looking into the details a little more will help you.

If you had read my posts you would understand I was referring to the end state of advaita compared to that of Buddhism and Kashmir Shaivism.

I think you just read my post to quickly with the mindset of disagree without reading.

Are you familiar with what the Primordial State is, in Buddhism?

Here let me help you understand how energy plays a role in Buddhism.

Kashmir Shaivism would agree as would most Traditions.

Maybe you should google some more. It might help with some of the misunderstanding you are having.

I think we can agree that we both have a different depth of understanding not just what reality is made up of within Buddhism but what they practice as well.

It is always best to learn with an open mind than to disparage another with a closed one.

Give it a shot :biggrin:

LOL Hi jonesboy -

If it makes you feel better, let's all call you Big Master Jonesboy - now, doesn't the ol' boy feel better already? ... Indeed ...

As I predicted in my earlier post, and already said, I am not interested to play word and Google games with you, most notably because even a most basic read through of your posts shows how little you actually know about Buddhist practice. And a more detailed review shows how inconsistently you apply your (intellectual) knowledge or understand its applicability to Buddhist spiritual practices. It's almost embarrassing if not tiresome. It's like speaking Korean to a Chinese person, who is arguing with you the definition of Korean words -- perhaps if the person was sincere, I'd be willing but I don't believe that it applies here.

But as I said, feel free to continue. I'm sure there are some whom will be enamored by your ads; it might be a little sidetrack for any genuinely interested in Buddhist practice, but apart from that they are more than welcome to have at your wares.

Just a small recommendation for you :smile: - if you want to stick to a storyline, it's best to stay consistent (for credibility purposes) :tongue:

Amazing isn't it?

You can actually show Buddhist teaching and techniques over and over that mention kundalini and still people will continue to deny it is Buddhist.

People don't want to learn what Buddhism is. If they did they would do some searching about it, post links to teachings etc.

It is all what they want Buddhism to be and if it doesn't fit then an entire culture, the most popular form of Buddhism is just denied, laughed at and told not Buddhist.

I really don't get that to be honest.

Since I have been adding to the discourse and continued posting will add no value to the discussion. Either from personal experience or from quoting texts I will take my leave from this thread.

All the best to everyone.

Bye.

Hi BT,

I never claimed to be a Buddhist. As a matter of fact I have said I am not many times in many threads.

I go to a Buddhist temple close to my house often and have received empowerments from the Rinpoche.

A Buddhist is someone who takes refuge in the 3 Jewels.

What you have is people who don't take refuge, take from Buddhism what they want or what fits there belief system and still want to call it Buddhism and that they are Buddhist.

I am much more than a believer. I have shared my realization of emptiness of self so I know when people are blowing smoke.. :biggrin:

.. But when you then try to promote that as a Buddhist Dharma.. well that is very wrong.

Then again why are you in the Buddhist forum if you don't believe in the teachings?

Another example....

That is what ones true nature is. Don't you believe all Buddhist teachings 200%?

Because you don't understand read and find someone learned on the topic just like bodhidharma said to do.

When did I say it doesn't matter and how am I on a different path than Buddhism?

Have I not shared what Yidam Deity practice is and why someone should do it? It is very similar to what I call merging.

Are you not familiar with what the Kayas are in Buddhism?

The silence I talked about is Yab Yum...

I am definitely on the Buddhist path but not a Buddhist :)

To think I am not ready to understand emptiness is again you not understanding that I have realized it.. it is not an intellectual thing for me.

Just another hint for the wise - it's quite rude to attack and try to manipulate/recruit Buddhists under the guise of Buddhism or googled Buddhist articles/words, especially when you don't truly understand or live it to any degree. It's also unfair and intellectually dishonest, in my opinion, to want to claim superiority in a religion (that you don't really know) and play it both ways.

After now reading more of your posts, something I never used to do in detail, I must say, tut tut tut. Shake of a head.

Cheerio, jonesboy.

BT

revolver
21-11-2017, 06:09 AM
I think the ego gets very jealous of someone who has experienced Oneness, it will say and do anything to try and destroy the one who has experienced Oneness, its simply the nature of the ego.

blossomingtree
21-11-2017, 06:13 AM
I like that comment, revolver, thank you :smile:

BT

Shivani Devi
21-11-2017, 06:21 AM
Hi revolver,

I am a big believer in the Guru within. At the same time I have seen where that guru within can lead one astray.

Wasn't there someone using that guru within that was telling them that for them to feel bliss again they would have to give up their family and friends to experience it again?

I would disagree with that 100%.

Nothing wrong with the guru within, but often he is influenced by our ego, by our obstructions and depth. It can lead us away from that which we seek.

I know that a teacher and a guru isn't for everyone nor am I saying it is. I started out in a system with no teachers and the mantra is The Guru is within you. :)

I have just said I have found one and it has made all the difference.

What is interesting is the closed hearts that deny a guru or a teacher. That is more how open ones heart truly is more than anything else. How can you receive if it is closed from whatever being or thing may come around to help you? More importantly if it is closed to receiving, how can you give with an open heart?

While I have the same people here arguing with me as always, people do show up, people do come around. Some stay, some come and go. In the end it is all about helping people. All you can do is throw out seeds and hope.

9. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."Namaste.

It can also be the case that the human ego misrepresents or mis-translates messages that are received 'in spirit'.

For example, there is a difference between giving up something and giving up the whole attachment to something.

In your example, the message may have been "you must give up the whole attachment to your family and friends if what they are doing is causing you not experience that bliss anymore".

I am in exactly the same predicament here, so I can speak from experience. Applying the method of 'energetic cord cutting' isn't the same as giving up family and friends, but not letting what they say or do distract you from your higher purpose, however sometimes this needs to be done and 'giving up' family and friends isn't the same thing as giving up smoking or chocolate cake...it simply means not to let them continually steal your energy and drag you down into their petty hate/fear cycle.

However, the ego interprets it as "I must shun my family and friends" and this also gets viewed by another to mean exactly the same thing.

revolver
21-11-2017, 06:25 AM
I like that comment, revolver, thank you :smile:

BT
Thanks, but at the same time we are all already there, its just the ego that keeps it hidden from us, the one who has experienced Oneness is no better than the ignorant one, for we are all One in Consciousness, but I believe you already know this, or have experienced this. :hug3:

Gem
21-11-2017, 11:17 AM
I think the ego gets very jealous of someone who has experienced Oneness, it will say and do anything to try and destroy the one who has experienced Oneness, its simply the nature of the ego.

H8ers gun h8 - enlightened ones too, ay.

Shivani Devi
21-11-2017, 11:49 AM
One thing I have to say, which would turn people off 'Gurus' is the dogged persistence of their disciples who try and 'sell' them or 'promote' them to others....if you were to follow all the advice and recommendations, you could spend your whole life 'Guru hopping' and sometimes, it reaches the stage where you don't know where to start, so you give up even before you begin (and they ALL say that THEIR Guru is the 'real deal' and all OTHER Gurus are fakes).

"I have this friend called Jeff...he is my Guru, he's helped me out and can do the same for you, you should see what he has to say".

"I have met Tony Parsons in person, he is my Guru and a really cool dude...knows a lot about Neo Advaita...you should totally check him out".

"Have you seen Mooji's latest offering? He's the 'enlightened being' for this age...he's my Guru and he's very wise, you should hear what he has to say, your life will never be the same".

...and on and on it goes...until your mind says ENOUGH!

django
21-11-2017, 12:26 PM
One thing I have to say, which would turn people off 'Gurus' is the dogged persistence of their disciples who try and 'sell' them or 'promote' them to others....if you were to follow all the advice and recommendations, you could spend your whole life 'Guru hopping' and sometimes, it reaches the stage where you don't know where to start, so you give up even before you begin (and they ALL say that THEIR Guru is the 'real deal' and all OTHER Gurus are fakes).

"I have this friend called Jeff...he is my Guru, he's helped me out and can do the same for you, you should see what he has to say".

"I have met Tony Parsons in person, he is my Guru and a really cool dude...knows a lot about Neo Advaita...you should totally check him out".

"Have you seen Mooji's latest offering? He's the 'enlightened being' for this age...he's my Guru and he's very wise, you should hear what he has to say, your life will never be the same".

...and on and on it goes...until your mind says ENOUGH!

Yes, Yes and Yes. I have always put my effort into learning to hear the Guru within instead of listening to the ten thousand gurus out there.

jonesboy
21-11-2017, 01:34 PM
One thing I have to say, which would turn people off 'Gurus' is the dogged persistence of their disciples who try and 'sell' them or 'promote' them to others....if you were to follow all the advice and recommendations, you could spend your whole life 'Guru hopping' and sometimes, it reaches the stage where you don't know where to start, so you give up even before you begin (and they ALL say that THEIR Guru is the 'real deal' and all OTHER Gurus are fakes).

"I have this friend called Jeff...he is my Guru, he's helped me out and can do the same for you, you should see what he has to say".

"I have met Tony Parsons in person, he is my Guru and a really cool dude...knows a lot about Neo Advaita...you should totally check him out".

"Have you seen Mooji's latest offering? He's the 'enlightened being' for this age...he's my Guru and he's very wise, you should hear what he has to say, your life will never be the same".

...and on and on it goes...until your mind says ENOUGH!

There is a difference in what I am saying compared to what you are saying.

Everyone you mentioned is listen to what I say.

I am saying a guru takes one beyond words. They don't have to say anything because they are able to touch your being and move it along.

ENOUGH of the guru's that just talk your ears off.

Everyone is stuck on the talking.. listen to what I say etc..

That is not a realized guru.

The inner guru that you are talking about is another voice just talking is it not?

I have never, ever told anyone to go and talk to Jeff and listen to his sweet words and how they will change your life... That is silly.

If that is what you wanted go listen to Mooji.

If you want someone that can help you let go of your obstructions, open ones heart and feel love outpouring without ever saying a word..

That is the guru I am talking about.

It is like finding Abhinavagupta and telling everyone what it is like in his presence and everyone saying guru's are stupid and your in a cult :)

Enough of the talk.... Find the rare guru :)


Now on a side note....

What is interesting is those that want to put down the guru or anyone that has found one.

A guru is not for everyone, nor may this point in time be the right time for someone to find a guru.

It is a valid path, one taught by all the great masters by all the great traditions.

Amazing how it becomes such a negative here on this forum. Especially interesting when you have people make fun of or disparage a thing instead of spending 10 minutes to see if it is real.

It's much easier to disparage that which we don't understand isn't it?

jonesboy
21-11-2017, 01:37 PM
LOL Hi jonesboy -

If it makes you feel better, let's all call you Big Master Jonesboy - now, doesn't the ol' boy feel better already? ... Indeed ...

As I predicted in my earlier post, and already said, I am not interested to play word and Google games with you, most notably because even a most basic read through of your posts shows how little you actually know about Buddhist practice. And a more detailed review shows how inconsistently you apply your (intellectual) knowledge or understand its applicability to Buddhist spiritual practices. It's almost embarrassing if not tiresome. It's like speaking Korean to a Chinese person, who is arguing with you the definition of Korean words -- perhaps if the person was sincere, I'd be willing but I don't believe that it applies here.

But as I said, feel free to continue. I'm sure there are some whom will be enamored by your ads; it might be a little sidetrack for any genuinely interested in Buddhist practice, but apart from that they are more than welcome to have at your wares.

Just a small recommendation for you :smile: - if you want to stick to a storyline, it's best to stay consistent (for credibility purposes) :tongue:















Just another hint for the wise - it's quite rude to attack and try to manipulate/recruit Buddhists under the guise of Buddhism or googled Buddhist articles/words, especially when you don't truly understand or live it to any degree. It's also unfair and intellectually dishonest, in my opinion, to want to claim superiority in a religion (that you don't really know) and play it both ways.

After now reading more of your posts, something I never used to do in detail, I must say, tut tut tut. Shake of a head.

Cheerio, jonesboy.

BT


I think this post speaks more about you than it does me sadly.

If you were really interested in a Buddhist debate you would have commented on my energy post which you said Buddhism doesn't talk about. Instead you want to attack the person.

Yes, very sad :(

As always, more than willing to demonstrate or back up what I am saying.

Have a good day :)

Tom

jonesboy
21-11-2017, 02:30 PM
A little insight about finding the rare guru and what that means.

From the KULARNAVA TANTRA


Difficult to obtain is the Guru who pleased,

gifts to you in the fraction of a second, the

wealth of liberation, taking you across the ocean

of Samsara.



Difficult to obtain is the godly Guru who

gives to the disciple his own capacity in a

moment without any ceremony or effort; who

gives instruction in knowledge which instantly

promotes faith, is easy and gives happiness of

the Self.



He is the Guru who goes on giving knowledge

with facility, without strenuous practice

and the like, as one moves from island to island.

Difficult to obtain is the Guru whose mere

instruction gives rise to knowledge, even as food

gives instant contentment to the hungry.

Many are the Gurus like lamps in house and

house; but rare is the Guru who lights up all

like the sun.



Many are the Gurus who are proficient to the

utmost in Vedas, and Sastras; but rare is the

Guru who has attained to the supreme Truth.

Many are the Gurus on earth who give what

is other than the Self; but rare is the Guru in

the worlds who brings to light the Atman.

Many are the Gurus who know petty

mantras, medicaments; but rare is the Guru

who knows the Mantras handed down by the

Nigama, Agama and Sastra.



Many are the Gurus who rob the disciple of

his wealth; but rare is the Guru who removes

the afflictions of the disciple.



Many are they who are given to the discipline

and conduct according to varna (class),

asrama (stage) and kula (family); but he who is

devoid of all volition is the Guru rare to find.

He is the Guru by whose very contact there

flows the supreme Ananda; the intelligent

man shall choose such a one as the Guru and

no other.



By the mere sight of him whose intelligence

is active only till the advent of experience, one

attains liberation, there is no doubt of it.

Rare is the Guru who has eaten up Doubt

which has engulfed the three worlds with all

that is moving and unmoving.



As in the vicinity of fire the butter gets

melted, so in the proximity of the holy Guru all

sin dissolves



As lighted fire burns up all fuel - dry and

moist - so the glance of the Guru burns up in a

moment the sin of the disciple.



As a heap of cotton blown up by a great

storm scatters in all the ten directions, so the

heap of sins is driven away by the compassion

of the Guru.

****

So again a real guru isn't about talking. It is his presence that sharing that moves one along, removing obstructions, and lighting one up like the sun.

Not from talking or telling you what to do.

Hopefully the words of Abhinavagupta will help others understand more of what I have been trying to say.

Bindu*
21-11-2017, 02:57 PM
So again a real guru isn't about talking. It is his presence that sharing that moves one along, removing obstructions, and lighting one up like the sun.

For me the Guru principle is attached to a lineage.

Attaching myself to this lineage of guru's is like plugging into an electric sockle..having the shakti (energy) to your disposal.

Just thinking of my Guru is like being enfolded in a sense of prescense, an energy field.
If I sit for meditation and using a technique of some kind....then when thinking of the Guru... the state of meditation gets instantly deeper...the Guru needs not to be there in person, or even alive in the body.

So the lineage thing is quite important I guess......

No need to have a personGuru telling you to pick up his garbage et.c. :smile:

Just following a body of teachings is enough....

The Diksha (initiation) issue is also powerful I believe....

Talking about my own experience which may not be the same for all.


.

jonesboy
21-11-2017, 03:10 PM
For me the Guru principle is attached to a lineage.

Attaching myself to this lineage of guru's is like plugging into an electric sockle..having the shakti (energy) to your disposal.

Just thinking of my Guru is like being enfolded in a sense of prescense, an energy field.
If I sit for meditation and using a technique of some kind....then when thinking of the Guru... the state of meditation gets instantly deeper...the Guru needs not to be there in person, or even alive in the body.

So the lineage thing is quite important I guess......

No need to have a personGuru telling you to pick up his garbage et.c. :smile:

Just following a body of teachings is enough....

The Diksha (initiation) issue is also powerful I believe....

Talking about my own experience which may not be the same for all.


.

I agree completely.

Also realize that all lineages start from the teachings of realized beings. The good ones anyways. That light, that energy from the divine source of the guru is passed down through the teachings of the lineage.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.

sentient
21-11-2017, 10:30 PM
For me the Guru principle is attached to a lineage.

Attaching myself to this lineage of guru's is like plugging into an electric sockle..having the shakti (energy) to your disposal.

Just thinking of my Guru is like being enfolded in a sense of prescense, an energy field.
Yes.

An image (in cultural wrappings) after the descent of Spirit/plugging into i.e. initiation/empowerment:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5d/60/95/5d6095a7fcff2be3647163780ebea6fc--perms-ancient-artifacts.jpg

Shivani Devi
21-11-2017, 10:32 PM
There is a difference in what I am saying compared to what you are saying.

Everyone you mentioned is listen to what I say.

I am saying a guru takes one beyond words. They don't have to say anything because they are able to touch your being and move it along.

ENOUGH of the guru's that just talk your ears off.

Everyone is stuck on the talking.. listen to what I say etc..

That is not a realized guru.

The inner guru that you are talking about is another voice just talking is it not?

I have never, ever told anyone to go and talk to Jeff and listen to his sweet words and how they will change your life... That is silly.

If that is what you wanted go listen to Mooji.

If you want someone that can help you let go of your obstructions, open ones heart and feel love outpouring without ever saying a word..

That is the guru I am talking about.

It is like finding Abhinavagupta and telling everyone what it is like in his presence and everyone saying guru's are stupid and your in a cult :)

Enough of the talk.... Find the rare guru :)


Now on a side note....

What is interesting is those that want to put down the guru or anyone that has found one.

A guru is not for everyone, nor may this point in time be the right time for someone to find a guru.

It is a valid path, one taught by all the great masters by all the great traditions.

Amazing how it becomes such a negative here on this forum. Especially interesting when you have people make fun of or disparage a thing instead of spending 10 minutes to see if it is real.

It's much easier to disparage that which we don't understand isn't it?
This whole forum is a virtual hive of negativity, ego contests and clique associations, my friend. If you are not arguing with somebody, then nobody wants to talk to you and so, I'm pretty much over SF.

So tell me then...what can a Guru do for ME? because it is going to take a lot to undo 40 years of negative social conditioning and cognitive bias about them.

If you want someone that can help you let go of your obstructions, open ones heart and feel love outpouring without ever saying a word..
Please tell me, how is that possible over the internet?

Shivani Devi
21-11-2017, 10:50 PM
I'm just tired of all the 'pressure' from those who divide people up according their 'beliefs', then take an opposing stance and attack them for it..."Guru people vs Non-Guru people"...."Neo-Advaitins vs Traditional Advaitins" etc....where there is one thing, the opposite thing will develop just so human beings can assert their egos as a point of contention to it and at the end of the day, after all the niceties and pleasantries have been dispensed with...IDGAF!

Bindu*
21-11-2017, 11:04 PM
Yes.

An image (in cultural wrappings) after the descent of Spirit/plugging into i.e. initiation/empowerment:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5d/60/95/5d6095a7fcff2be3647163780ebea6fc--perms-ancient-artifacts.jpg

Nice image...

I'm also like the Igor kufayev guy you mentioning in some earlier posts....nr 168 for example.

I have a nice facebook friend who's taken his classes for some years. She is very enthusiastic about him and his teachings. In the context of Nondual Kashmir Shaivism and kundalini. I am tempted to take a class of him some day.

Shivani Devi
21-11-2017, 11:06 PM
the intelligent man shall choose such a one as the Guru and no other.Then again, I am not intelligent, so I shall leave getting a Guru for all of the high-class, intelligent people out there.

Gem
21-11-2017, 11:25 PM
No worries guys, I'm here now :smile:.

Shivani Devi
21-11-2017, 11:25 PM
Also, it seems that 'not having a thought of your own' and the whole 'spiritual depersonalisation' thing is totally acceptable, condoned and encouraged.

For example, I may say something and have others call 'bull'...however, if I say that Ekhardt Tolle, Mooji etc said the same thing, it becomes "It is only true because they said it...not you!"

Then those who follow a guru say "my guru says this...my guru says that" and when I ask, "yes, but what do you think about it?" they always say "why, I agree with my guru".

It just seems to be that the more people who believe in something, the more that makes it 'true'....they used to call that one; propaganda.

Yeah, I could say something...but because I'm just a pathetic, sniveling 'nobody' on an internet forum, nobody else gives a damn...nobody cares...people say "become like Jesus, walk on water....only then I will listen to you".

...I could bet that I'm on about 90% of people's 'ignore lists' on here because I refuse to kiss butt, ya know?

sentient
22-11-2017, 12:43 AM
I shall leave getting a Guru for all of the high-class, intelligent people out there.
Quite frankly, I think that the Guru principle is for the total dummies.
From memory: Synchronistic events manifesting left, right and centre, whilst “I” remains clueless.

Shivani Devi
22-11-2017, 01:03 AM
Quite frankly, I think that the Guru principle is for the total dummies.
From memory: Synchronistic events manifesting left, right and centre, whilst “I” remains clueless.The main thing that bothers me about all this...

I am a 'free thinker'...I am an 'individual'....I'll go against the herd if I can cut through the superficial rubbish...I can see things most others cannot because I don't let my emotions or beliefs cloud my thinking AND I call a spade a spade, even if the whole world would disagree with me.

It goes against my very nature to be pressured into 'believing something' through popular example, through ad-hominem assumption, through the very appeals to my sense of self-worth or self-confidence..."you must be a total idiot if you don't agree with me"...that sort of stuff.

People will go to great and often very low lengths to have another believe them...and of course, If deep in my being, I know something is true, I will defend it with my very life but not voluntarily...I'm not the type to instigate argument and say 'my way is right and yours is wrong'...but if anybody tries to pressure me into changing and believing them instead, appealing to anything else other than pure logic or reason...giving many examples for why they say what they do...they may as well be talking to a chair who knows it is a chair, trying to convince it that it is a table because they are both wooden.

This is the problem...would I still be able to be a free thinker? will I still have my 'individuality?' will I still be able to 'go against the flow of ignorance' and speak out against social issues, or call 'bee ess' when I see it? or will I have to totally tow the 'Guru line'? not allowed to have any thoughts of my own? not allowed to express anything which may be contrary to the Guru's teachings? become just a brainless puppet to a philosophy and an agenda?...and THIS is what I am terrified of.

django
22-11-2017, 02:26 AM
No guru then, no worries :smile: What useful thing are they going to tell you anyway, if they're any good, except go within, and find the guru within???

Can a guru take you to your guru within? Maybe the truest bestest guru in the world, but how many guru frogs do you have to kiss first?

blossomingtree
22-11-2017, 02:43 AM
With due respect to some quotes, I would be wary of giving up personal responsibility or thinking another can absolve us of our sins.

I like this from Ram Dass (courtesy *Bindu)

And we go through the lineage. A lineage that is pure is one that catapults us ultimately out the other end; it isn’t designed to make us followers of the lineage. It is designed to take us through itself and free us at the other end.

I only like following external teachers and teachings when they are the real deal or at least more spiritually advanced in a genuine* way. Even within and without that spectrum, however, in effect, everything teaches us and everyone is in effect a teacher...

There are always so many greys when we discuss this topic though; so many variations depending on who and what we are really talking about, the student, the teacher, the stage of spiritual development, the circumstances, the readiness, the authenticity or lack of.

If one has the right encounterance, then it will happen, if not, the teachings are there to guide people. The danger zone is probably when one gets to a certain stage and starts to think "one is there" or gets complacent, fooling themselves in the process, then there are those that start setting up shop as teachers even though they are clearly mired in the same trappings, just now with a spiritual cloak - these are danger signs that a good teacher can help clear for a willing student. And at the beginning so one can know the broad direction, to not give up before the goal is attained. But regardless even the best teacher cannot do the work of another - this is the blessing of God.

Also, not everyone has the same path, not everyone needs to be a modern day Jesus or Buddha, i.e. plumb the same depths of realization, actualization and Gnosis.

What is your intention, desire, will? Let that be your Guide and don't be afraid to ask for help, but don't give up your self responsibility and the end goal to me is always commensurate with Ultimate Truth (which transcends consciousness and reconciles apparent contradictions), Love and a deep inner knowing (Gnosis that is beyond ordinary mind). In that way, you will surely come to know your True Guru.

BT


*This is the crux of differentiation in my books. This opens up the question how one can tell - one can tell by practicing well oneself, in this way differentiation becomes cleared up

Gem
22-11-2017, 03:41 AM
No guru then, no worries :smile: What useful thing are they going to tell you anyway, if they're any good, except go within, and find the guru within???

Can a guru take you to your guru within? Maybe the truest bestest guru in the world, but how many guru frogs do you have to kiss first?

I think we can take a word like Guru and assign it to a person, and I remember in my younger years traveling with a person who was highly spiritual, and when I noticed their quality of spiritualism, I started to treat them different, and they had to tell me to stop judging them as someone they are not.

In my later years I went on a Buddhist meditation path, and 'Buddha' is also a word many assign to a person, but the teaching in Buddhist schools say that Buddha is not a person - it's the quality of enlightenment in everyone.

Then we start to say 'the guru within' and things like that, but I think the essence of all this is the truth of who you are, and truthfulness is the quintessential aspect of the spiritual path.

So it comes down to the simplest of things, but the hardest of things, as walking in the truth is not the easiest or most gratifying way, but I think people have the notion already in them that it is the only way, as self-deception can only lead to delusion.

The rhetoric about gurus and their abilities is not exactly untrue, but the personal assignment of the title is fundamentally misguided, as we sholdn't revere any person moreso than any other, or moreso than ourselves, for every person is equal in terms of fundamental dignity and respect, and if a higher respect is given to a personal guru, that means one does not give utmost respect to the 'everyday person'.

revolver
22-11-2017, 04:24 AM
When we reverence the Guru we are not reverencing the guru as the mind body organism, its the inner Source of the Guru that we are reverencing, that inner Source is also within us, most are just too ignorant to know this truth, and so we have the Guru.

sky
22-11-2017, 05:44 AM
No worries guys, I'm here now :smile:.

Thank Guru for that :D

sky
22-11-2017, 05:55 AM
This whole forum is a virtual hive of negativity, ego contests and clique associations, my friend. If you are not arguing with somebody, then nobody wants to talk to you and so, I'm pretty much over SF.

So tell me then...what can a Guru do for ME? because it is going to take a lot to undo 40 years of negative social conditioning and cognitive bias about them.


Please tell me, how is that possible over the internet?

Silly girl :smile: it's possible through the ' Chat Room ' on livingunbound, or via e-mail.

Shivani Devi
22-11-2017, 08:50 AM
Silly girl :smile: it's possible through the ' Chat Room ' on livingunbound, or via e-mail.So, silence in a chat room...coool. :biggrin:

Maybe all the people who are silent on SF are busy 'raising my vibration' instead of speaking. hehe

Oh I could have a lot of mental fun with this in a non-duality forum...but I won't.

Would you also like me to 'show my true colours' now everybody?

I say I am an Aghori because I sort of identify with them on THIS level of being (free thinkers/beings who just 'do their own thing')...I also worship Shiva/Shakti (but moreso Lord Shiva)...and occasionally Ardhanarishwara when I am in two minds about WHO to worship...I have studied The Tantras, Yoga and Ayurveda and Jonesboy knows I'm a beautiful and heady mix of Shaiva Siddhanta and Vajrayana Buddhism which approximates to all of the tenets of Kashmir Shaivism - hey, I am even a subscriber to the Pashupatinath Temple in Nepal...but all that aside.

My lineage? my real, true honest lineage? I am of the Saraswati line.

My ex-husband was a member of the Divine Life Society in Rishikesh and his Guru was Swami Chidananda Saraswati.

I prefered Swami Krishnananda Saraswati because he was more 'Philosophical' and his treatise on the Bhagavad Gita is excellent...and I really enjoyed the company of Swami Satyananda Saraswati and I have all his books and teachings on Tantra, learned a lot about Kundalini Yoga from him...he was basically the only one who would talk about it...learned all the yoga postures, practiced all of the kriyas based on the teachings of Swami Vishnudevananda Saraswati, but my favourite Swami in Rishikesh, was Swami Venkateshananda Saraswati...such a beautiful soul was he *sigh*....but anyway, I studied under them all...and in 2001, I took Mantra Diksha from Swami Chidananda Saraswati and everybody started calling me by the user-name I have now on this forum.

However, through that whole experience, I learned a lot from the whole Saraswati Lineage...all of Swami Sivananda's disciples, however, I never saw or felt any of them to be my 'guru' or 'teacher' even though they taught all me things...but the connection was never there and I guess you could say ALL of them were my gurus...and yet NONE of them were...in the sense of pure one-on-one intense stuff with any of their devotees....and I never got the feeling of 'energy' or 'shaktipat' or anything like that.

I stayed in Rishikesh for 2 years, before moving to the Fiji Islands for a while staying with my ex's family, then coming back to Australia...

So yes, I am not totally 'guru ignorant' here...I've been through it first hand in my 20's and 30's....staying at many ashrams...mostly the Satyananda Mangrove Retreat, the Baba Muktananda Ashram in Dulwich Hill (different lineage...awesome Tantra teacher...until Swami Chidvilasananda took over...we had our differences back then)...and if I wanted some really good food, good Sankirtan and some nice Bhakti...I sharpened my harmonium and Dholuk skills down at at ISKCON in Darlinghurst...and even studied the works of Srila Prabhupada there...it was very difficult to drag my attention away from the beautiful picture of Lord Shiva in the foyer though...but I said nothing....it was not my 'turf'. lol

Occasionally, I would sneak away from the ISKCON 'ladies quarters', down into Sydney and to the Theosophical Book shop in Kent Street, studying hours of Annie Besant, Geoffrey Hodson, Leadbeater, H.P. Blavatsky, J. Krishnamurty, Sir John Woodroffe and Pundit Gopi Krishna, that's if I wanted to have a break from all the intense 'Krishna stuff'...but it all usually lead me back to the Satyananda Ashram at Mangrove Mountain....there was a giant marble Shiva Lingam in the foyer with a silver snake coiled 3 and a half times around it...and every time my ex and I stayed there, it was "I want to take it HOME...put it in my ROOM...puhleez?" and he'd just burst out laughing.

Anyway, according to the Vedic and Dharmic traditions, I had a 'guru' for 17 years and he was called 'my husband' the direct disciple of Swami Chidananda Saraswati of Rishikesh...who I had the pleasure of meeting personally three times and each meeting, I felt nothing...I was just looking to and speaking to another 'spiritual person' from a 'spiritual perspective' and each conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes.....anyway...just saying this, if nobody already knew about it.

sky
22-11-2017, 10:10 AM
So, silence in a chat room...coool. :biggrin:

Maybe all the people who are silent on SF are busy 'raising my vibration' instead of speaking. hehe

Oh I could have a lot of mental fun with this in a non-duality forum,l...but I won't.

Would you also like me to 'show my true colours' now everybody?

I say I am an Aghori because I sort of identify with them on THIS level of being (free thinkers/beings who just 'do their own thing')...I also worship Shiva/Shakti (but moreso Lord Shiva)...and occasionally Ardhanarishwara when I am in two minds about WHO to worship...I have studied The Tantras, Yoga and Ayurveda and Jonesboy knows I'm a beautiful and heady mix of Shaiva Siddhanta and Vajrayana Buddhism which approximates to all of the tenets of Kashmir Shaivism - hey, I am even a subscriber to the Pashupatinath Temple in Nepal...but all that aside.

My lineage? my real, true honest lineage? I am of the Saraswati line.

My ex-husband was a member of the Divine Life Society in Rishikesh and his Guru was Swami Chidananda Saraswati.

I prefered Swami Krishnananda Saraswati because he was more 'Philosophical' and his treatise on the Bhagavad Gita is excellent...and I really enjoyed the company of Swami Satyananda Saraswati and I have all his books and teachings on Tantra, learned a lot about Kundalini Yoga from him...he was basically the only one who would talk about it...learned all the yoga postures, practiced all of the kriyas based on the teachings of Swami Vishnudevananda Saraswati, but my favourite Swami in Rishikesh, was Swami Venkateshananda Saraswati...such a beautiful soul was he *sigh*....but anyway, I studied under them all...and in 2001, I took Mantra Diksha from Swami Chidananda Saraswati and everybody started calling me by the user-name I have now on this forum.

However, through that whole experience, I learned a lot from the whole Saraswati Lineage...all of Swami Sivananda's disciples, however, I never saw or felt any of them to be my 'guru' or 'teacher' even though they taught all me things...but the connection was never there and I guess you could say ALL of them were my gurus...and yet NONE of them were...in the sense of pure one-on-one intense stuff with any of their devotees....and I never got the feeling of 'energy' or 'shaktipat' or anything like that.

I stayed in Rishikesh for 2 years, before moving to the Fiji Islands for a while staying with my ex's family, then coming back to Australia...

So yes, I am not totally 'guru ignorant' here...I've been through it first hand in my 20's and 30's....staying at many ashrams...mostly the Satyananda Mangrove Retreat, the Baba Muktananda Ashram in Dulwich Hill (different lineage...awesome Tantra teacher...until Swami Chidvilasananda took over...we had our differences back then)...and if I wanted some really good food, good Sankirtan and some nice Bhakti...I sharpened my harmonium and Dholuk skills down at at ISKCON in Darlinghurst...and even studied the works of Srila Prabhupada there...it was very difficult to drag my attention away from the beautiful picture of Lord Shiva in the foyer though...but I said nothing....it was not my 'turf'. lol

Occasionally, I would sneak away from the ISKCON 'ladies quarters', down into Sydney and to the Theosophical Book shop in Kent Street, studying hours of Annie Besant, Geoffrey Hodson, Leadbeater, H.P. Blavatsky, J. Krishnamurty, Sir John Woodroffe and Pundit Gopi Krishna, that's if I wanted to have a break from all the intense 'Krishna stuff'...but it all usually lead me back to the Satyananda Ashram at Mangrove Mountain....there was a giant marble Shiva Lingam in the foyer with a silver snake coiled 3 and a half times around it...and every time my ex and I stayed there, it was "I want to take it HOME...put it in my ROOM...puhleez?" and he'd just burst out laughing.

Anyway, according to the Vedic and Dharmic traditions, I had a 'guru' for 17 years and he was called 'my husband' the direct disciple of Swami Chidananda Saraswati of Rishikesh...who I had the pleasure of meeting personally three times and each meeting, I felt nothing...I was just looking to and speaking to another 'spiritual person' from a 'spiritual perspective' and each conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes.....anyway...just saying this, if nobody already knew about it.



Yes SD 'silence in a chat room' they will take you beyond words :biggrin:
Interesting post , you have certainly led a colourful life :smile:

jonesboy
22-11-2017, 12:56 PM
This whole forum is a virtual hive of negativity, ego contests and clique associations, my friend. If you are not arguing with somebody, then nobody wants to talk to you and so, I'm pretty much over SF.

So tell me then...what can a Guru do for ME? because it is going to take a lot to undo 40 years of negative social conditioning and cognitive bias about them.


Please tell me, how is that possible over the internet?


A lot can be done but the most important thing is a Guru can help you let go of your issues and fears.

That connection when working with a guru like I have said introduces one to deeper levels of silence and the connection which can be also felt as energy flows through you hitting upon your obstructions allowing you to let them go within that silence.

As I mentioned earlier that type of connection let a woman I know who was having nightly 5hr long panic attacks move beyond them. To let go of those issues and fears, those obstructions to have a better life and progress along the path.

As far as over the internet..

With oneness where is not the Guru? Why does distance matter?

The means of communication is to help you. The more in person a person is like with a direct message or a chat increases that concentration, that focus from you on that connection the stronger it is to you.

All things can be done over any form of communication :) The internet just makes it easier to work with people all over the world is all.

jonesboy
22-11-2017, 12:59 PM
I'm just tired of all the 'pressure' from those who divide people up according their 'beliefs', then take an opposing stance and attack them for it..."Guru people vs Non-Guru people"...."Neo-Advaitins vs Traditional Advaitins" etc....where there is one thing, the opposite thing will develop just so human beings can assert their egos as a point of contention to it and at the end of the day, after all the niceties and pleasantries have been dispensed with...IDGAF!

In truth I am for anyone finding there way in anyway they want.

What you find is people disparaging others path.

I like my Guru so in a Guru thread I will promote what a real guru is like.

In the Buddhist section you will find me as the only one promoting Buddhism and it's traditions.

In the Hindu section I talk about Hinduism and the various traditions, I don't disparage traditions.

Forgive me if anyone has felt pressure from me. I have just been trying to share my experiences and let people know there is more than just talk.

All the best to you,

Tom

jonesboy
22-11-2017, 01:12 PM
Yes SD 'silence in a chat room' they will take you beyond words :biggrin:
Interesting post , you have certainly led a colourful life :smile:

Beyond thoughts, not words silly :)

So here is an integrity check for the members of this thread.

I have said a lot, said a lot is possible with the usual suspects saying I am silly and full of ** :wink:

So either I am a brainwashed fool going around saying things that are so far fetched and stupid or I am I telling you the truth about what is possible.

Here is where we all hang out. You have people that practice Dzogchen to Taji to whatever coming here working with us or just hanging out and observing.

https://join.slack.com/t/livingunbound/shared_invite/enQtMjU5MjIyMDQzNTczLTg4N2E3N2FmMDJlZGYxMDIzYjE0Mj g3N2RkNjVkMTVjOGU4NzFmZWE2MTUyMTcwYzk4YjJmN2EyM2Jh NDliOWY

All I ask is before anyone decides to disparage what I am saying have the integrity to at least drop in and see if I am full of it or not.

If your not willing to and still want to say negative things. How it is all silly and fake.

Well that speaks a whole lot about the person you are much more than me.

All the best to you and your decision,

Tom


* Now let the excuses begin :D

sky
22-11-2017, 01:22 PM
Beyond thoughts, not words silly :)

So here is an integrity check for the members of this thread.

I have said a lot, said a lot is possible with the usual suspects saying I am silly and full of ** :wink:

So either I am a brainwashed fool going around saying things that are so far fetched and stupid or I am I telling you the truth about what is possible.

Here is where we all hang out. You have people that practice Dzogchen to Taji to whatever coming here working with us or just hanging out and observing.

https://join.slack.com/t/livingunbound/shared_invite/enQtMjU5MjIyMDQzNTczLTg4N2E3N2FmMDJlZGYxMDIzYjE0Mj g3N2RkNjVkMTVjOGU4NzFmZWE2MTUyMTcwYzk4YjJmN2EyM2Jh NDliOWY

All I ask is before anyone decides to disparage what I am saying have the integrity to at least drop in and see if I am full of it or not.

If your not willing to and still want to say negative things. How it is all silly and fake.

Well that speaks a whole lot about the person you are much more than me.

All the best to you and your decision,

Tom


* Now let the excuses begin :D



Now I have you telling me what to say, you obviously have missed the joke, it's beyond words..... a chat room thats silent, get it....:biggrin:

It's Taiji btw.... in pin-yin...

jonesboy
22-11-2017, 01:34 PM
Now I have you telling me what to say, you obviously have missed the joke, it's beyond words..... a chat room thats silent, get it....:biggrin:

It's Taiji btw.... in pin-yin...

I did miss it and I am sorry.

Sounds good, not my thing but my friend has been practicing it for decades with his Master.

Loves to talk AV and we have some really good debates about AV and KS.

I have asked him to join SF so that maybe some really good Qi Qong type discussions and AV type discussions can come about.

It will be interesting to see how things unfold :)

sky
22-11-2017, 02:15 PM
I did miss it and I am sorry.

Sounds good, not my thing but my friend has been practicing it for decades with his Master.

Loves to talk AV and we have some really good debates about AV and KS.

I have asked him to join SF so that maybe some really good Qi Qong type discussions and AV type discussions can come about.

It will be interesting to see how things unfold :)

If it tickles your fancy, so be it.

s1va.
22-11-2017, 03:54 PM
As far as over the internet..

With oneness where is not the Guru? Why does distance matter?

The means of communication is to help you. The more in person a person is like with a direct message or a chat increases that concentration, that focus from you on that connection the stronger it is to you.

All things can be done over any form of communication :) The internet just makes it easier to work with people all over the world is all.

Interesting discussion. Yes, a truly realized Guru will know that there is nothing that separates them from the rest of the manifested world as one experiences. So, it is not through the internet (or over the internet), a Guru helps. Such a master can help directly, since he/she does not see any separation (duality).

sentient
23-11-2017, 12:52 AM
I do not know this, I only get a vague sense that Nondual Kashmir Shaivism is more akin to Aboriginal thought, where Oneness is realized through the Glory of Creation (and layers of creation i.e. subtle realms or multidimensionality) ?
Seeing all these worlds as real and not mere illusions or mere "appearances in consciousness"?

Some links here expressing Aboriginal Spirituality, if anyone is interested:

Living in the state of Oneness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9M8KNXFeE

Oursness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8zAh3irMYo

Western vs Indigenous views:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiq5Fc9l1Oc

Gem
23-11-2017, 03:44 AM
I do not know this, I only get a vague sense that Nondual Kashmir Shaivism is more akin to Aboriginal thought, where Oneness is realized through the Glory of Creation (and layers of creation i.e. subtle realms or multidimensionality) ?
Seeing all these worlds as real and not mere illusions or mere "appearances in consciousness"?

Some links here expressing Aboriginal Spirituality, if anyone is interested:

Living in the state of Oneness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9M8KNXFeE

Oursness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8zAh3irMYo

Western vs Indigenous views:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiq5Fc9l1Oc
I was a big fan of that man, rest his soul.

sentient
23-11-2017, 03:57 AM
I was a big fan of that man, rest his soul.

I respected him also.

Shivani Devi
23-11-2017, 04:06 AM
I have asked him to join SF so that maybe some really good Qi Qong type discussions and AV type discussions can come about.

It will be interesting to see how things unfold :)Yes, I would very much like for that to happen.

I am not deliberately showing any disrespect to your kind self, but I would actually like to understand the background, philosophy and teachings of the personage you describe, before making up my mind as to whether he is 'suitable' to be my Guru. I don't go by any 'face values'...but in light of that, my whole post about my experiences with Gurus from the DLS seems to have gone by the wayside in regards.

Also, there's this little issue about any Guru 'preaching to the choir', as it were...any Guru can come up and tell me that "You are THAT" and try to enlighten me...but I'd be like "yeah, I know...been there, done that...NEXT".

In fact, having studied the works of Adi Shankaracharya, Swami Krishnananda and even Abhinavagupta himself, I could 'out-Advaita' anybody on here...if I was really interested in actually doing that.

...and of course (with all due humility and respect) my Shakti has gone through the roof also (with the help of my "inner Guru") and like you said before, achieving Nirvikalpa Samadhi is one thing, but attaining Sahaja Samadhi another...so I tend to view all of these Gurus as 'nothing special', but that is my own spiritual bias which has also come about through direct experience.

That being said:

Interesting discussion. Yes, a truly realized Guru will know that there is nothing that separates them from the rest of the manifested world as one experiences. So, it is not through the internet (or over the internet), a Guru helps. Such a master can help directly, since he/she does not see any separation (duality).

Welcome to the forum. =)

Yeah, I don't miss much. lol

sentient
23-11-2017, 04:22 AM
...but I'd be like "yeah, I know...been there, done that...NEXT".
Kevin Bloody Wilson's song isn’t what comes to my mind, but have you ever been to Oodnatatta? :tongue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20oqyMVbss0

Shivani Devi
23-11-2017, 04:31 AM
Kevin Bloody Wilson's song isn’t what comes to my mind, but have you ever been to Oodnatatta? :tongue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20oqyMVbss0
I prefer Lucky Star's version instead...but nope, never been to Oodnadatta.

I posted that Kevin Bloody Wilson song only to illustrate that after attaining "Oneness", people have the total freedom to just do whatever they like, despite anybody else and they don't have to act all 'spiritual' and 'holier than thou' just because they have reached that stage of growth.

So, all others would say "omg, Shivani swears, posts all these silly things...she is a very base and banal character...ergo, she hasn't realised anything"...and of course, challenging assumptions is what I love to do the best...and it's going to take a while before I lose that 'endearing' aspect of my being. lol

sentient
23-11-2017, 05:32 AM
I prefer Lucky Star's version instead...but nope, never been to Oodnadatta.

I posted that Kevin Bloody Wilson song only to illustrate that after attaining "Oneness", people have the total freedom to just do whatever they like, despite anybody else and they don't have to act all 'spiritual' and 'holier than thou' just because they have reached that stage of growth.

So, all others would say "omg, Shivani swears, posts all these silly things...she is a very base and banal character...ergo, she hasn't realised anything"...and of course, challenging assumptions is what I love to do the best...and it's going to take a while before I lose that 'endearing' aspect of my being. lol

Your knowledge about Hinduism is dazzling - who can add to it?

The song joke aside, it is just that in the Central Desert you do experience that shared presence/oneness weekly if not almost daily running into the traditional people there, so it is almost a norm and if anybody fancied themselves especially “spiritual” because of it that would create a lot of mirth.

There one also meets youths who look like black Shivas right out of the Shiva posters (due to shared DNA) and accompanied with those non-dual experiences/moments I just couldn’t shake off this “5000 years of Advaita” – feeling.

Shivani Devi
23-11-2017, 05:54 AM
Your knowledge about Hinduism is dazzling - who can add to it?

The song joke aside, it is just that in the Central Desert you do experience that shared presence/oneness weekly if not almost daily running into the traditional people there, so it is almost a norm and if anybody fancied themselves especially “spiritual” because of it that would create a lot of mirth.

There one also meets youths who look like black Shivas right out of the Shiva posters (due to shared DNA) and accompanied with those non-dual experiences/moments I just couldn’t shake off this “5000 years of Advaita” – feeling.Neither can I, my friend and that's why I am 'into' what I am 'into'.

I could also go into the 'shared DNA' that the Aboriginal Australians have with the Gondi tribe of India - hence why Australia was once known by the name "Gondwanaland"...and I came to that realisation whilst studying the DNA from the species of blue quandong tree (rudraksha) that is native to both sub-continents...but that's a story for another day.

sentient
23-11-2017, 07:23 AM
I could also go into the 'shared DNA' that the Aboriginal Australians have with the Gondi tribe of India - hence why Australia was once known by the name "Gondwanaland"...and I came to that realisation whilst studying the DNA from the species of blue quandong tree (rudraksha) that is native to both sub-continents...but that's a story for another day.

With genetic flow from India - I was referring to this old study:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-15/research-shows-ancient-indian-migration-to-australia/4466382

Gondwana began to brake up about 180-200 million years ago.

Shivani Devi
23-11-2017, 07:35 AM
With genetic flow from India - I was referring to this old study:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-15/research-shows-ancient-indian-migration-to-australia/4466382

Gondwana broke up about 180-200 million years ago.Interesting article and although I am aware that Gondwana broke up millions of years ago, but why that word appears in Sanskrit, referring to a race of people is beyond my comprehension.

Although I would also say that the history of mankind dates back a lot further than about 50,000 years...maybe not 180-200 million years ago, that is a stretch, but I'd say close to half a million years according to the Vedas...but then again, according to the Hindu version of Yugas...four Yugas are about 200 million years (a day of Brahma) and people existed in Satya Yuga and we are now in Kali Yuga...so yeah, I can't work that one out either. =/

All I know, is that before the last Great Flood, there were land bridges existing from South East Asia to Indonesia and from Indonesia to Australia, so the migration of Aboriginal people from India would have been possible...and they probably brought Rudraksha seeds with them and planted them here.

sentient
23-11-2017, 07:41 AM
Blue Quandongs probably are of Gondwana origin.

Shivani Devi
23-11-2017, 07:55 AM
I'm also going to give Sri Yukteshwar Giri a mention here...a Guru which many respected and admired as being Swami Yogananda's Guru.

He proposed that instead of "years" as the yugas prescribe, they were 'moons' or 'months' and humans were around for the last great precession of the equinox which occurs once every 25,000 years or so...and they say that the Mahabharata which occurred some 30,000 years ago marked the transition from Dwarapa Yuga into the present Kali Yuga...and basically a Yuga was a full precession of the equinox instead of being 'millions of years'...but he was laughed at by the whole Hindu establishment...his findings and himself became totally discredited and he lost his whole 'respectable guru' status.

Gem
23-11-2017, 08:56 AM
I have to plug Gangagi because, you know, gender equality and all that...

revolver
24-11-2017, 12:22 AM
I have to plug Gangagi because, you know, gender equality and all that...
isn't that a pain when you hear them go on about gender this and gender that.:mad:

sentient
28-11-2017, 06:51 AM
A quote from a book, I have never read:
Guru Nanak:
It is God’s will and order that prevails and the God/Guru-centred ones are those who can perceive this God’s design/will and transcend their individual selves to be one with the Universal self.

jonesboy
28-11-2017, 01:59 PM
Yes, I would very much like for that to happen.

I am not deliberately showing any disrespect to your kind self, but I would actually like to understand the background, philosophy and teachings of the personage you describe, before making up my mind as to whether he is 'suitable' to be my Guru. I don't go by any 'face values'...but in light of that, my whole post about my experiences with Gurus from the DLS seems to have gone by the wayside in regards.

Also, there's this little issue about any Guru 'preaching to the choir', as it were...any Guru can come up and tell me that "You are THAT" and try to enlighten me...but I'd be like "yeah, I know...been there, done that...NEXT".

In fact, having studied the works of Adi Shankaracharya, Swami Krishnananda and even Abhinavagupta himself, I could 'out-Advaita' anybody on here...if I was really interested in actually doing that.

...and of course (with all due humility and respect) my Shakti has gone through the roof also (with the help of my "inner Guru") and like you said before, achieving Nirvikalpa Samadhi is one thing, but attaining Sahaja Samadhi another...so I tend to view all of these Gurus as 'nothing special', but that is my own spiritual bias which has also come about through direct experience.

That being said:



Welcome to the forum. =)

Yeah, I don't miss much. lol

Here is a little of his story. I would provide a link but unless you are a taobums member you can't read it.

Since someone asked and a few others piled on with messages, I thought I would share some of my personal experiences...



I grew up in the midwest part of the US with sort of a classic low key christian background. My family was pretty religious, but nothing crazy. I would feel what people call "energy stuff" from a very early age, but never really associate it with anything as I just assumed that everyone had stuff like that.



Had a big pickup in energy stuff around college, but still didn't really think much special about it until a deeply religious friend from eastern europe came to me one day and said that he was going to have his personal fight with the devil and he wanted me to kill him if he failed/lost the battle. He also seemed to think that I knew completely what he was talking about. Clueless and concerned, I tried to calm and talk him down. Rather than digging deeper into it, we graduated and I went off to graduate school. Got married, had kids, worked on my career, life in general and sort of forgot about all of the energy stuff.



Then about 18 years ago I had sort of a shift. My business career had been going very well and it seemed like I always had total control of the situation. My middle daughter was 3 at the time and was sort of childishly throwing a temper tantrum. Like she knew it was all a game just to mess with me. Normally in control and pretty naturally calm, I was starting to begin to lose it. Suddenly, she stopped, jumped into my arms and said..."Daddy, I just love you so much..." Something shifted in me at that moment, almost like something descended into me.



The next day I woke with sort of vibrations in my head. I would have probably thought it was a brain tumor, but with the vibrations came a deep sense of peace. Playing with it for a while, I quickly found that I could move those vibration around my body. Later noticing that some places in my body were kind of like dead zones with no vibrations.



Well, as you can probably guess, Christian guys from the midwest don't normally come across (or discuss) things like that. Always interested in different religions in college, I started doing more research on such things. Found some books on things about Kundalini, but my experience seemed very different than what all of the books said. Not initially finding much useful in books to fit my situation and not knowing anyone to really talk to, I instead sort of just kind of experimenting with the energy stuff.



Maybe more later...

It has been pointed out to me that my story seems to be missing some points. In particular, things like what happened energetically with the hug with my daughter. Also, what about things like meditation and practices in those earlier years. I had been thinking about describing more major events or experiences of opening, but maybe it makes sense to give a little more context. And then also, give more specific energetic/spiritual understanding of what happened given the benefit of my current perspective.



Given that, I should probably say a little more about those early years. I have never really been a formal meditator, but looking back while I did not have formal practices, there were two things that I would regularly do that had there equivalent. First, I would listen to music. But, by listening I mean that I would "just listen". All mental activity would stop and I would maintain that state of listening for fairly long periods of time. My second (in hindsight) practice was that I would pray (to the Holy Father) every night before sleeping. But, my prayers were not asking for anything, they were much more like quieting my mind, asking for guidance, and finishing with sort of "thy will be done". Then maintaining the mental quiet go to sleep in that state.



Additionally, during those early business years, I travelled a lot. Almost constantly on flights and a lot of free time at night. So that just listening to music and then later just playing with energy would be hours per day. Also, on some trips I would have so much energy flow that I would be racked with shakes and chills for hours at night in the hotel room.



Going back to the event of my daughter... energetically it was like I had become a super charged energetic bubble of self trying to mange and control it all. My daughter's child like love sort of out a huge crack in that bubble and kind of like the air started rushing out. Looking back, that event opened what I would now call the "inner heart" or "8th chakra".



That crack in the wall brought the opening with the "peace that passes all human understanding"...



Possibly more later...



Note: I don't see the point in talking about books that I found to not be useful. Also, different books may be right for each person depending on their path. But, happy to put together a list of books that I have found to be pretty accurate about stuff in a separate thread.


For those interested there are many past threads discussing the inner heart/8th chakra. But, try to describe it can be very challenging as it is really more like a fundamental shift than a "thing". It is also particularly hard to explain with astral types as they tend to think of it as chakras above the head that they can see.



Maybe try to think about it like this... People live in a bubble of (individual) self. What people call chakras or dantiens are kind of different layers (or sheaths) of those aspects of self. The higher you go in the sheaths/chakras the more of the dimensional universe you can see or perceive. But, while no matter how big the bubble gets, while inside of it you have a relative dualistic view of reality. You may be able to see in the distance or another dimension, but there is still an individual bodymind "you" that is seeing it. When you start to crack open the bubble of self, you start to kind of shift from "seeing" to more "being". Like what to used to be on the outside with seeing as separate is now known to be on the inside.



It is called the inner heart because the first thing noticed is kind of like a universal human soul layer. It feels like first your family/friends and then later everyone are in (or can be accessed) inside your heart. With focus, you literally can feel other beings heart beat.


There is more but I thought that would be a good start.

Gem
28-11-2017, 10:33 PM
To me it doesn't matter which way a person is influenced be that the NA TA ND or other. As when you believe things due to the authority figure who says them, you lose your own sensibility, and the whole idea isn't to be like, 'Ramana said it therefore it's right' - it's to recognise that the discourse is produced to be persuasive.

revolver
29-11-2017, 12:46 AM
To me it doesn't matter which way a person is influenced be that the NA TA ND or other. As when you believe things due to the authority figure who says them, you lose your own sensibility, and the whole idea isn't to be like, 'Ramana said it therefore it's right' - it's to recognise that the discourse is produced to be persuasive.
Well said.:smile:

sentient
29-11-2017, 12:56 AM
To me it doesn't matter which way a person is influenced be that the NA TA ND or other. As when you believe things due to the authority figure who says them, you lose your own sensibility, and the whole idea isn't to be like, 'Ramana said it therefore it's right' - it's to recognise that the discourse is produced to be persuasive.
Not always as it seems.
It is like when you sometimes “spherically” know something. You know it and you know how to use it, function in it, but that knowing hasn’t crystallized into a clear left hemispheric concept as yet.
At those times your subconscious sometimes brings your attention to a “quote”, which you do recognize as what you wanted to say - “who” said it doesn’t matter at that point.

Another scenario is that one feels like a worm in a hook saying something others have said so much better.

sentient
29-11-2017, 01:12 AM
Thank you Jonesboy for bringing this subject/concept up, because I have struggled with it a bit.

For those interested there are many past threads discussing the inner heart/8th chakra. But, try to describe it can be very challenging as it is really more like a fundamental shift than a "thing". It is also particularly hard to explain with astral types as they tend to think of it as chakras above the head that they can see.

Maybe try to think about it like this... People live in a bubble of (individual) self. What people call chakras or dantiens are kind of different layers (or sheaths) of those aspects of self. The higher you go in the sheaths/chakras the more of the dimensional universe you can see or perceive. But, while no matter how big the bubble gets, while inside of it you have a relative dualistic view of reality. You may be able to see in the distance or another dimension, but there is still an individual bodymind "you" that is seeing it. When you start to crack open the bubble of self, you start to kind of shift from "seeing" to more "being". Like what to used to be on the outside with seeing as separate is now known to be on the inside.

It is called the inner heart because the first thing noticed is kind of like a universal human soul layer. It feels like first your family/friends and then later everyone are in (or can be accessed) inside your heart. With focus, you literally can feel other beings heart beat.

Maybe I am or maybe I am not barking at the same or similar tree here, but apart from our dualistic projections, there is also an energetic engagement with the perceived that can also be called “seeing”.

And talking about trees. There is a special tree in town I used to watch that has a palpable energy field and a glowing aura.
And my thoughts were: To see/feel the Aura of a tree is to understand the Heart of the tree.

blossomingtree
29-11-2017, 04:23 AM
Some people are so attached to their own ideas/selves that even if Jesus or Gautama were to appear, they would be like "Uh-uh no. It's my thoughts and judgement or the highway" - and they go on to praise and promulgate their understandings as if that compares to the genuine spiritual knowledge of the Adepts. The really funny thing about this is that they cannot imagine anything past their limitations, and so they promote the view that there couldn't possibly be more than they know about - well aren't we fortunate there's more to life than we can imagine and so such conceit will naturally be overridden over time :smile:

revolver
29-11-2017, 04:49 AM
Some people are so attached to their own ideas/selves that even if Jesus or Gautama were to appear, they would be like "Uh-uh no. It's my thoughts and judgement or the highway" - and they go on to praise and promulgate their understandings as if that compares to the genuine spiritual knowledge of the Adepts. The really funny thing about this is that they cannot imagine anything past their limitations, and so they promote the view that there couldn't possibly be more than they know about - well aren't we fortunate there's more to life than we can imagine and so such conceit will naturally be overridden over time :smile:
But then you get those who believe in anything:D .

Shivani Devi
29-11-2017, 08:03 AM
Some people are so attached to their own ideas/selves that even if Jesus or Gautama were to appear, they would be like "Uh-uh no. It's my thoughts and judgement or the highway" - and they go on to praise and promulgate their understandings as if that compares to the genuine spiritual knowledge of the Adepts. The really funny thing about this is that they cannot imagine anything past their limitations, and so they promote the view that there couldn't possibly be more than they know about - well aren't we fortunate there's more to life than we can imagine and so such conceit will naturally be overridden over time :smile:Of course you must also be aware of the adage "If you see Buddha on the highway, kill him". It is our concepts which keep us mired in the illusion and we need to transcend the personal to attain the impersonal. Then we are truly free to adopt the personal aspect once more, within the full existential awareness of its intransigent nature.

For example, some on here, those neo-advatins who profess the teachings of Ramana Maharishi, only take from that the juice of his teachings, and not the entire background or story behind them and thus, misinterpretations and misrepresentations occur.

I (if there is any such thing), go the other way and apply the philosophy of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa who was a great devotee of the Goddess, Kali.

Goddess Kali even appeared to him and you know what he said? "no, I don't want you...even though I love you...I want to obtain Brahman...I want to know the truth" however, because his love for Kali was so great, he couldn't get beyond that stage...so, you know what happened? his guru gave him a sword and said to Ramakrishna "next time Kali appears, run her through...don't even hesitate for a split second" and so, following his guru's advice, Ramakrishna did just that...attained Brahman on the spot...then went back to worshiping Goddess Kali again, but this time, it was different, even though nothing had changed from before. He had gone from Bhakti to Parabhakti.

"First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is".

The same happened with myself and Lord Shiva. I didn't want to 'merge' with Shiva or 'become Shiva' because I loved Him too much for that. I achieved Savikalpa Samadhi, but I was stuck...I could not break the Rudra Granthi knot over my third-eye to go all the way there...then I had a vision, like Ramakrishna did and Lord Shiva appeared to me and said "how much do you love me? how much do you trust me?...nothing will change and yet, everything will" and I could only reply "I love and trust you with every fibre of my existence, my Lord" and then He said "well, let it go...let everything go...even that love and trust you have for me"...It was the hardest thing I have EVER had to do in my life...but it was as if Lord Shiva gave me no choice and so, I did...then I realised the formless beyond the form which gave rise to all form...there was no sense of self, no room, no surroundings, no vision of Shiva...just an indescribable feeling that I wasn't feeling...however after that all happened, I went back to worshiping Lord Shiva as if nothing had even changed...and yet, He was right because everything had.

jonesboy
29-11-2017, 01:23 PM
Thank you Jonesboy for bringing this subject/concept up, because I have struggled with it a bit.


Maybe I am or maybe I am not barking at the same or similar tree here, but apart from our dualistic projections, there is also an energetic engagement with the perceived that can also be called “seeing”.

And talking about trees. There is a special tree in town I used to watch that has a palpable energy field and a glowing aura.
And my thoughts were: To see/feel the Aura of a tree is to understand the Heart of the tree.

Seeing is a natural progression but remember that all such seeing is a local mind translation of the light. Beyond seeing is being.

Seeing and feeling the tree is much different than being the tree... but still a huge step and congrats!

If you are up for an experiment please let me know :)

jonesboy
29-11-2017, 01:35 PM
Continuing with the story :)

Question: Thank you for sharing, Jeff. I resonate strongly with your above description.

I frequently experience shakes and chills that correlate with strong energetic flow. When around others, people tend to ask if I am cold; I often times feign agreement.

As things have progressed for you, has this subsided? Care to expand further on what you believe is happening energetically?

Jeff:Yes, over the years it has subsided. I did have one such experience about a month ago, the most recent previously was over five years ago.

The chills and shakes are a manifestion of high energy flows hitting stored energy structures of issues and fears. The energy activity itself is subconscious (or beyond your conscious awareness), but the flow (and hitting stuff) is so strong that it kind of "spills over" into your conscious mind. It is that spilling over that your mind translates into the physical aspects of the shakes and chills. For me, the key was always sort of relaxing into it and not fighting it. Kind of like when waves crash into you at the beach they knock you over, but if you dive under and into the water, the wave is really just a flowing current and motion.

Continuing...



With noticing I could move it around, I started pretty constantly playing with the energy over the next few years. With it, I quickly noticed a couple of things. There were sort of "dead zones" in my body, and I could move and play with the energy and think about other stuff at the same time. So I started to spend time trying to address and figure out these two issues.


With the body dead zones, I started focusing on them and bit by bit sort of extending the surrounding live energy zones into the dead places. When I did that, I would often notice that sometimes some issues and fears would come up in my mind. At first I tried to sort of chase the memories that were associated with them, but quickly found that it took me away from the energy itself and just led me back to the other issue of not being able to think and move the energy at the same time. Rather than open the dead zone, it would just sort of distract me and the zone would stay dead. So, after that realization, I would continue to try to stay with the energy itself and not get caught up in the memories, fears and issues.

Additionally, as I would sort of clear out a major area, I would notice after finishing that there was sort of a deeper layer below it were there may still be smaller stuff to deal with. Almost like greater refinement where the opening up process would have to be done all over again. And over time, I noticed that there seemed to be almost endless levels of refinement to deal with.

On not being able to thinking about stuff and feeling/move the energy stuff at the same time, I spent a lot of time trying and experimenting with this with absolutely no luck. No matter what I did, it seemed to be an either or thing. My mind was normally very quiet and it seemed that it was like a switch with only a single point of focus. Just one thing at a time.

Then I talked to someone who was a self proclaimed guru and he suggested that I just watch my thoughts and then try to stop them. Almost like being a traffic cop at an intersection. To me this was kind of silly as I could easily just quiet my mind and have all thoughts just disappear. But, it did get me thinking about tracing thoughts back to the movement of creation. Initially, I would trace them back and get only so far, but then I noticed that as I continued to clear out my body to more refined levels, I could also go back further in the process of the creation of the thought. This was a simple but huge revelation to me at the time.

With that realization, ultimately I was able to push back and kind of find like a "door" where thoughts and the energy of thoughts came into my mind. Also, the cool thing is that seemed to be like infinite energy behind that door...

Maybe more later...

This individual working with the energy to continually dive deeper and clear both my body and issues in my mind continued for around 10 years. Along the way, I worked to stay focused and aware in the moment constantly during the day.



While I was pretty good at doing that, I found that there were two glaring holes in my ability to do that. One, and definitely the biggest, was anything to with activities centered around my kids. As an example, all of my kids played competitive sports for many years. And while I would be normally calm and collected in life, I would lose it all with every travel soccer game. My emotions would run rampant and I would get swept up in the fears and concerns around the activity. The second was that when my wife was telling me things about her activities during the day, my mind would wander. Almost like I was being pulled away from the situation.



While I started consciously working on clearing the stuff around those two issues I started to notice the energetic effects between myself and my wife and kids. It was these energetic interactions with others that kind of dominated my next phase of life and practices.

jonesboy
29-11-2017, 01:42 PM
Things continued on largely the same until one week when I was on a business trip in Florida. I was driving from the airport to the hotel while listening to music and playing with the energy. Normal mental activity was quiet when I felt like a powerful wave descending down hitting my head and rippling through my body. I immediately thought to myself "what the hell was that". But, amazingly I had been able to keep the energy flowing while I consciously had been thinking. Also, it was like everything got a little brighter and more vibrant.

It is hard to really describe this shift, but it was now like I could do energy meditation stuff while doing any normal daily activity. Like the energy flows were always available and flowing 24/7 and it was more just focusing on it. Additionally, that door that I had previously mentioned regarding tracing thoughts was now kind of permanently open. And there was unlimited energy and potential behind that doorway.

This led to a phase of sort of conducting experiments of blending the conscious thought (intent) with the energy. Sort of trying to do things to prove to myself that I was not crazy. But also amazingly to me, after successfully conducting those experiments I quickly lost interest in doing them. Kind of like for me it was about going deeper and satisfying my curiousity, rather than and specific goal.


More later...


Happy New Year to All! :)


With the shifts I had been experiencing over the years, I had been reaching out to most self proclaimed enlightened teachers to try to get a better understanding of my experiences. In most cases I found it to be largely unhelpful. Like the earlier books on Kundalini, there did not seem to be much of a fit.

But, over all of the years the internet and the number of websites had grown dramatically. So searching through a lot of them, I found a few that seemed to describe things similar to what I had been experiencing. In particular, I found the forums a great place to learn various tradition's terminology for what I had been experiencing. After some deep discussions at one of the forums focused on specific practices, I found that their leadership was having a retreat in a city near one of my upcoming business trips. Also, two of the teachers of the retreat claimed to be enlightened, so I thought this would be a great opportunity to see what I could notice or sense with them. Given my schedule constraints, the leaders were very gracious and envited me to a pre-retreat dinner at one of their homes. I went to dinner, and while everyone was very nice, I came away a little disappointed. While I didn't really have a chance to talk with everyone, I didn't sense much and most of the conversation seemed to be centered around various drugs that people used as part of their spiritual process (something I had never done).

About two weeks after I got home, I got an email from one of the group's leaders (that I had not been able to spend time with) saying that I had been "appearing" in her meditation sessions for the last couple of days and wondered if I knew what I was doing. My first thought was that she was imagining things, but since she was supposedly "enlightened", I decided to discuss it with her and play around with some of her experiments. She said that she could see me very clearly in her presence, and after some experiments, she said with my conscious focus the effect became even more powerful. After some practice, she said she could even sort of physically feel me too. For me, I could see nothing (later learned that I was sort of astrally blind) , and even though I countinued with the experiments, because she seemed to be able to text me knowing I had touched her whenever it happened. It was really weird. Then about three weeks into the experiments, she had me touch her stomach and I felt a huge energy backwash from it. It was crazy for me, because this was the first time I had ever felt another person's energy. I could immediately feel the difference from my own. I asked her if there was anything new or different today given our weeks of failure with me seeing anything, and she told me that her monthly period had just started that day... :)

The conscious mental acceptance that I could actually remotely connect with other people hundreds of miles away caused a huge energy explosion in my mind that night.



More later...


After that first conscious connection, I started discussing it at some of the forums and found a few members who were willing to conduct experiments on remote energy connections with me. These experiments would first consist of sending and feeling energy (or not), both in things like chat, and for more energy sensitive people and random moments. Then later we expanded the group and started trying dream connecting with a shared visual environment. We quickly found that simpler was better than more complex mental images. As an example, if you tried to do something like hanging out talking at a beach, only more advanced spiritual types would get anything. But, if everyone just focused on a simpler intent of connecting and "water", we would get significantly more success. Rather than force an image on their subconscious, it would work better to share energy and let everyone translate the group energy into their own subconscious imagery.

We also quickly learned that it was more effective if someone was a leader and sort of "created the mental space" for the meet up. These night connections became fun and pretty popular, with the group participating all increasingly growing their energy flows. But, people being people, such group experiments became a little complicated as some participants started focusing more of your energy on specific individuals... :)

Some other early experiments included connecting completely disparate to time. I found that it was possible to sort of leave and energy connection "blob" like a stored mail for someone. Then they could pick it up when they were free to do it. This was very helpful in geographically expanding the group.

More later...


I think this is more than enough for today.

blossomingtree
29-11-2017, 08:20 PM
Of course you must also be aware of the adage "If you see Buddha on the highway, kill him". It is our concepts which keep us mired in the illusion and we need to transcend the personal to attain the impersonal. Then we are truly free to adopt the personal aspect once more, within the full existential awareness of its intransigent nature.

For example, some on here, those neo-advatins who profess the teachings of Ramana Maharishi, only take from that the juice of his teachings, and not the entire background or story behind them and thus, misinterpretations and misrepresentations occur.

I (if there is any such thing), go the other way and apply the philosophy of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa who was a great devotee of the Goddess, Kali.

Goddess Kali even appeared to him and you know what he said? "no, I don't want you...even though I love you...I want to obtain Brahman...I want to know the truth" however, because his love for Kali was so great, he couldn't get beyond that stage...so, you know what happened? his guru gave him a sword and said to Ramakrishna "next time Kali appears, run her through...don't even hesitate for a split second" and so, following his guru's advice, Ramakrishna did just that...attained Brahman on the spot...then went back to worshiping Goddess Kali again, but this time, it was different, even though nothing had changed from before. He had gone from Bhakti to Parabhakti.

"First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is".

The same happened with myself and Lord Shiva. I didn't want to 'merge' with Shiva or 'become Shiva' because I loved Him too much for that. I achieved Savikalpa Samadhi, but I was stuck...I could not break the Rudra Granthi knot over my third-eye to go all the way there...then I had a vision, like Ramakrishna did and Lord Shiva appeared to me and said "how much do you love me? how much do you trust me?...nothing will change and yet, everything will" and I could only reply "I love and trust you with every fibre of my existence, my Lord" and then He said "well, let it go...let everything go...even that love and trust you have for me"...It was the hardest thing I have EVER had to do in my life...but it was as if Lord Shiva gave me no choice and so, I did...then I realised the formless beyond the form which gave rise to all form...there was no sense of self, no room, no surroundings, no vision of Shiva...just an indescribable feeling that I wasn't feeling...however after that all happened, I went back to worshiping Lord Shiva as if nothing had even changed...and yet, He was right because everything had.

Dear sweet Shivani Devi

We have all had our experiences so I can only say many blessings and truth to you in your path. :smile:

BT

sentient
30-11-2017, 11:25 PM
Seeing is a natural progression but remember that all such seeing is a local mind translation of the light. Beyond seeing is being.
Well, ok, true; - any person who is a bit psychic or clairvoyant without any realizations of, or awakenings into “Oneness” can see/feel energy-fields/auras.

Yet, (and perhaps because I don’t really know what I am talking about here) to me it seems that the same principle still holds. “A center and circumference”, which takes me back to my own belief system about the Worldpole (which of course to my mind explains everything :cool: ) and which to my mind map – can be likened to a Mandala set-up:
The Tibetan word for mandala is "kyilkor," which means "center and fringe." Therefore we're talking about a circle, a center and circumference, which establishes a complete world. At the center of the mandala is always a central deity. This deity is the buddha principle, i.e., it stands for nothing, the emptiness that pervades the mandala. It says, in effect, nothing is at the center, and this then is the central gateway into the absolute buddha mind.
Jonesboy:
Seeing and feeling the tree is much different than being the tree... but still a huge step and congrats!

Right.
At the top of the Worldpole sits the Eagle (Thunderbird) and if one doesn’t talk about sudden awakening, but more in terms of ascension (the non-dual Worldpole) then it is as if one goes through the Eye of the Eagle.
It is a bit like a "wormhole", a tunnel or a portal or a gate where the Sound/Light energy "guides you to a new level” where the whole manifested world is now “singing” - radiating and luminous. And you are that luminosity as well as is every atom in a blade of grass. No gap between the observer and the observed. Direct inner knowing, but “seeing” is there too, and “seeing” I suppose meaning self-cognizant luminosity here.

Yet, it still feels like there is a center and circumference there at the heart of it all as well. Be it now the voidless void (?)

If you are up for an experiment please let me know :)
Thank you for the invitation, but I think I have at times experimented more than I can properly digest.
It seems proper digestion is hugely important.

Shivani Devi
05-12-2017, 08:15 AM
Yeah, about feeling the energy and essence of your whole lineage personified...

I actually felt it today, after I just totally opened up and let all the cats out of the bag.

It is an essence instilled within, like a kind of 'spiritual DNA' and it hit me like a sledge hammer about half an hour ago!

Swami Krishnananda taught me Advaita Vedanta.
Swami Satyananda taught me Tantra and Hatha Yoga.
Swami Chidananda taught me perseverance and steadfastness.
...and of course, Swami Sivananda taught me Bhakti Yoga and love.

I'm the essence instilled....the culmination of them all!

...and it all started when, at 14, I wanted to love and worship Lord Shiva after His darshan during Thaipusam, then I found, under my hotel room bed, a book..."Lord Siva and his Worship" - Swami Sivananda...my path/course had already been set!